Growing as a person – and as a leader – often involves a metamorphosis, where one moves from an egocentric, achievement-focused mindset to a more holistic, purpose-driven approach to life and work.

This shift can occur at various stages of life, and it takes courage to confront the discomfort and uncertainty that shows up. But ultimately it leads to a deeper connection with one's soul and life purpose.

This journey, while challenging, can be navigated successfully with the right guidance and understanding of the process. In this discussion, Giles Hutchins outlines his relationship with this process of death and rebirth.

Giles is a coach specialising in regenerative leadership and business inspired by nature. He works with leaders, founders, CEOs, and chairs from around the world, and has been taking leaders into nature for over 15 years as part of his coaching practice.

Links

• Leading by Nature, by Giles Hutchins
• Other books by Giles
• Movement, Mood and Mindset – Episode 34, with Sal Jefferies

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking, a series of conversations with entrepreneurs, advisors, artists and academics, or people championing ideas on the margins, the periphery.

So you might bring these ideas back to the mainstream of your mind and your work.

10 or 15 years ago, our guest today, Giles Hutchins, was leading a big division of a big company right in the belly of the corporate beast, you might say, until the pool to follow the ideas on the periphery of his own mind could be ignored no more.

In this conversation, we talk about these ideas, uh, which for Giles is a, a love for and deep curiosity into the systems and beauty of nature, uh, and how these might better shape and inform the work that we do and how we do it.

Uh, we also talk about his books, uh, including one of the recent books Leading By Nature.

We talk about midlife transitions, by which I don't really mean driving off with your secretary in a red, BMW unless you want to, of course.

Uh, and we talk about the importance and power of two really simple ideas, the need for space and the need for stillness, you know, and that's whatever your level of responsibility or busyness.

Uh, and this conversation really feels to me like a first gift in service of those two simple ideas.

So why not grab a cup of tea or coffee, plug in and gift yourself this little piece of conversational space and stillness.

Charles, welcome to Peripheral Thinking.

It's a real pleasure to be here with you today, Ben.

So thank you for inviting me.

Brilliant.

Well, um, I think I wanted to start with, uh, an apology, because the apology where we originally conceived of this, uh, conversation and, uh, you kindly agreed to join me on peripheral thinking.

Uh, my hope and intent was actually that we were able to record this on your farm and, uh, we're not able to do that.

And for that I need to apologize and that you have a farm, not a boardroom.

Given the nature of all of the, the people that you work with, which are kind of many business leaders and whatnot, that your workplace is a farm, uh, is a really kind of curious place to start.

Maybe can you can sort of explain, maybe start just very, very briefly, give us a little bit of a picture of, of where you are, what the farm is like, uh, and a little bit of a kind of explainer as to why the farm is your place of work.

Well, um, actually it's reasonably summery today, believe it or not, in the United Kingdom.

Um, so yeah, we've got a nice, nice selection of white cumulus clouds and blue Azure, sky behind, and, uh, all the trees are out in their full glory.

We've even got the leftovers of some of the rend, um, colors in the woods here.

Um, the elder flowers are out.

Um, and you know, the trees, I think have now started to lose that initial green of spring and they're now into, you know, chunking into summer.

The, the grass is, we've got a paddock here, um, up where I am, where my office is, um, what I call the arrival hall.

So when people come here in groups, we gather in the arrival hall, and that's up on paddock.

Um, sort of Victorian parkland actually originally.

And then you walk down into the woods and the woods are then on this gradual slope down.

We're actually at a watershed, um, here, the stream, um, of the spring of springwood.

Um, actually starts, a little stream that goes into a pond that we've got here where you can do a bit of wild swimming and then it goes off into the river mo, it's the beginning of the river Mo This is the start of the River Mo, which joins the Thames at Hampton Court,

Beautiful.

So that is, that, that is, you know, that is a, that's a kind of beautiful place, a beautiful home.

Um, and so it is your, your workplace too, very intentionally.

Your workplace.

I mean, it was quite bizarre how it happened.

And maybe later I can, I can share a bit of the story, but yet we are here.

I mean, I've been taking leaders into nature for some years now over 15 years.

Um, starting actually when I was in London, Q Gardens and places in nature in Amsterdam and those sorts of urban places, but then much more in nature when we moved out of London.

But actually we've only been here five years.

Um, it'll be five years this summer.

And a lot of my work now is actually coaching internationally with clients all over the world, whether they're coaches, they're leaders, um, uh, founders, CEOs, chairs.

Um, yet I still work with the energy of the woods when coaching those people.

So when I take on a new coaching client, I actually do set the intentions in the woods and work with their.

Higher self and, um, very much feel that the energies of the woods are now part of, part of me, or I'm part of them, um, which helps with coaching clients regardless of whether they come here in person.

Oh, that's beautiful.

And that actually, uh, points to, uh, a kind of useful just clarification.

And so you, you make reference to the coaching work that you do.

Maybe just give us a very kind of quick overview of what the, what, what that coaching work typically is.

Yeah, so my little area of specialism is regenerative leadership, um, and business inspired by nature.

So, uh, learning from living systems, applying those living systems to our organizations as living systems, but also to our ways of leading, um, to creating cultures, uh, to upgrading our strategies to become future fair, looking at value propositions and so forth.

And a lot of the leadership work I do is helping leaders and, uh, change agents and also sometimes just life coaching.

You know, people going through significant changes in their life going through, uh, that midlife, that upstretched, um, from what I call the achiever into the regenerator.

So adult developmental psychology languages, that's a shift of from, um, a stage of meaning making where we're sort of self is set foot, um, very much running, um, ego consciousness is, is dominant to actually starting to connect much more deeply with our soul and our life purpose and allowing

that to flow through what we do in our work life, in our home life, with our children, with our parents, with our adults, you know, whatever it is.

Finding that deeper sense of meaning and purpose and allowing that to shift how we are in the world and how we relate to our work.

Hmm.

I mean a lot in that.

So sort of talk about the, the dominant, or not, sorry, I don't know if you used the word dominant, but the, the o the starting, the starting point of ego consciousness.

And of course that is, that is the, uh, a kind of dominant paradigm for how kind of many people work and the context in which, uh, people's businesses operate.

And a lot of the people I'm interested in, or a lot of the people we are talking to here are people are probably leading organizations or, or, or they're interested in the leading of themselves, you know, how they turn up in the world.

And that might be how they turn up in the world in the running of their companies.

It might be the turning, how they turn up in the world, uh, in the running of themselves.

Uh, and I I was just kind of curious, um, are there, you, you made reference to a kind of a midlife, um, a midlife sort of point, a midlife transition there.

Um.

What do we do, do, do you mean like the, the kind of classic midlife?

Is that an age thing?

Maybe that's a better question.

Yeah.

Uh, well, um, over the years, I mean, and I've literally coached hundreds of people now through this kind of, let's call it a midlife crisis.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, uh, no, I mean, it, it is kind of a age to age.

It's it's age, it's related to maturity, uh, let's say ego stage maturity, because the age, actually in, in my latest book I refer to this could be anything from almost late twenties, early thirties, all the way through to mid sixties.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, it's usually by your mid to late sixties.

If you haven't gone through that shift, you're probably not going to, you don't have to many people, um, function and very, have very happy lives without going through a significant shift in meaning making.

Um, but if you are going to allow yourself to, let's say, deviate from the.

Egocentric culture that we're in, um, uh, and actually shift how you are going to operate and how you're gonna lead away from the general, way in which culture has told us to do it.

then there is a journey that one goes through, and that journey is written, hardwired into pretty much all the ancient myths and traditions and, and wisdom practices throughout the world.

I've really just worked with those and those different practices and then brought them into a way that is framed for a busy business leader or for someone who's going through a significant life change, but who has lots, lots going on.

So we can give a framing for that and allow people to go through a multi-month journey, which gives them the way markers to be able to really shift and make meaning of the shift rather than feeling that they have to somehow take themselves out or they somehow have to look after themselves.

In the midst of that, actually allow the shift itself to be part of the journey and to, to really savor the the journey.

you made you, you made reference there to, uh, whether people would, sort of let this happen.

And, and also kind of saying that lots of people go through life without kind of engaging with this.

What, what, what's, what's kind of happening there?

Why would it, why would one person let it happen and another a avoid or, or not engage with this?

That in itself itself is a very interesting question.

So there's an inner and outer relationship going on all the time in life.

We often like to think in today's mechanistic, sort of materialistic way of seeing life, that actually things are just happening on the outside and then we are adapting and we're reacting to them.

And if we can be more fleet to foot or we can learn new tools, we can adapt better to the outer life.

Well, in and of itself, that is actually part of the achiever paradigm when we realize that there's an in and outer going on and that there's much more of a dance, much more of a co-creative, uh, participation with life.

And that our consciousness and our way of relating to life actually influences and effects the way in which life shows up to us.

Um, then we start to.

Have moments in our lives that can give us meaning.

And that could be a synchronicity, it could be a life change, it could be an insight, it could be an out body experience or peak experience.

It could be something, troubling happening in our external world, like, I don't know, um, an illness or a, a relative dying or, or it could be just rising dissonance.

It could be that we're getting, part of us is, is starting to struggle against this achiever life.

Mm-Hmm.

And that we just feeling hard, you know, we felt we had to do it because we had to do XY Z to sort of serve and find our place in society.

But now it's just killing us.

It's not, it's sapping at our soul.

And we can feel that inside.

That's rising dissonance.

So either you get some form of shock or change an accident, um, a life change.

You change your partner, something happens, or you start getting this.

Challenge inside that's starting to awaken you.

And then you have a choice to either listen to that or try and suppress it.

And there's many reasons we tell ourselves as to why we'd suppress it.

Whether it be, oh, I can't afford XY Z, I've got to wait until the mortgage is done, or gotta wait until my kids leave university, or until my parents, whatever the story is.

Um, we try and sort of suppress it.

'cause we actually know deep down inside that going on that journey is going to shift things in a way that we just don't understand and are out of our control, which the ego doesn't like because it is an, it is a form of death for the ego.

It's a death rebirth of our psychological self.

So there is a resistance.

And if we overcome that resistance to our own courage and which is part of the journey, then we go on a dissent.

Mm-Hmm.

And many people, as I say, possibly don't wish to or may not have had the meaning moments to really provoke them in that way.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, Mm-Hmm.

And so it could be any set of reasons.

It's not necessarily that if you're more financially a able that you can do it not at all.

Um, in fact, sometimes being financially able can kind of prevent it.

Mm-Hmm.

Because you are quite happy in your sort of cocoon of, of Mm-Hmm.

You know, so, um, I haven't found there are unique reasons for catalyzing it.

I think it's perhaps more the soul.

When the soul is ready and the moments happen, how you then read it, and how you then choose to do something with it.

Whether you have the courage to go into a journey.

I think that the experiencing that need for change.

Need for change as a dissonance, uh, that, uh, is kind of, was very kind of relevant for me.

But equally, if I think about other people who I kind of know and work with, that there has been, you know, maybe a kind of medical shock or something which kind of, sort of shakes the shakes, the foundation of the old, the old world.

I'm kind of curious, what's the journey then?

So, um, I would be feeling this dissonance, say the dissonance is kind of growing.

I have a growing awareness and feeling that this road that I'm on is not the road that I can continue on.

Um, so I kind of reach out for, reach out to Giles and I, I kind of, maybe that's the extent of.

I, that, that's the extent of what I know.

That somehow this world that I'm part of isn't kind of working for me.

Uh, or somehow this feeling that if this is the road that continues ahead, um, for, you know, until that, that is somehow unsatisfactory.

What, what, what do I do then?

What happens then on the Yeah.

Uh, on the journey with Charles?

Well,

the journey itself is, is um, beyond formula.

Mm-Hmm.

Uh, but there are way markers and there are symbols and signs that can help us.

'cause this journey has been traveled by many before us.

And I have actually mapped out a three part nine stage journey to help Mm-Hmm.

People under kind of get an understanding and help guide them through the process.

But essentially, really it's one, if you think of the simple you image, uh, of going down.

Along the bottom and then coming back up the other side.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, it's a death rebirth.

You might call it a metamorphosis, which I sometimes do, which is this sort of caterpillar.

Then going into a cocoon, having a process of death, rebirth, and then coming out the other side as fundamentally different.

Yet essentially the same being, um, what is actually happening is we're actually sort of shedding a skin and that is helping us, um, on the one hand let go of old patterns and habits and ways of engaging with life, with our work, with so forth.

Um, but in so doing, actually making us more vulnerable, um, therefore there is a bit of a sort of cocoon that's needed in that phase.

Then you start to bring that new self out into the world, um, solely but surely.

And that pattern actually happens in nature.

you know, we have the harvest supper at the end of the autumn to celebrate the fruits of whatever that period of summer, of ego stage growth, where we are making things happen, we are achieving the business model.

Um, we've developed and taken.

Products and services to market very successfully, whatever it is.

Um, but actually then we may sell our business or we're, we're, we're, we're very happy with our business, but we know a change is coming or a change is needed.

Um, and then by about Halloween time, we sense that something's in the air, something's changing, and that we might need to embrace winter.

That's where the ego usually kicks in and prevents, and we try and get back to a summer and we try and ignore winter completely.

So we have a sort of spring, summer, autumn, and then poof, spring, summer, autumn, and then spring, summer, autumn, and we slowly get burnout or we just.

You know, get out of work altogether or something.

But instead, we can actually allow ourselves to go for a wining process.

And often we're having to do that.

Many of the people I coach are having to do that while they're still in the same workplace.

Mm-Hmm.

Or they're actually launching their business ventures or whatever.

So it's not a case of them being able to go off on a journey and have nice time out.

And actually you're having to do the journey whilst managing the very things that you were used to doing with the old self.

And that's part of the challenge, but also part of the opportunity.

'cause you can start to notice the old patterns starting to fall away.

It's not comfortable.

Um, sometimes that initial drop down the U or into winter can feel a bit like a depression.

Um, but it's certainly a bending of our beam of awareness inside ourselves and starting to work with reflective practices that make sense of perhaps repressed aspects of our self, our psyche, that need more of our conscious awareness.

You know, dreaming at night changes.

Um, and there's, there's practices that we can do to help, um, start process processing that learning.

And then once you've dropped into winter in the bottom, going into the bottom of the u, it's then a case of actually starting to assimilate the learning and listening to deeper inside oneself and actually learning to listen and bringing awareness of other ways of knowing beyond the voice in the head, the deeper sense of self, and actually learning to listen to the field, to to nature.

Like trusting in the nature of life, trusting life actually.

Mm-Hmm.

Which is something we naturally do, we have the capacity to do as human beings.

And some of this might remind us of times earlier in our life where we have been more attuned to nature, um, or we have found meaning making wisdom moments.

And then you start to come out the other side where you start to make sense of what.

It is that you wish to bring into the world that's more in line with who you are.

And as I say, that might be still working in the same company, but actually the way you are showing up or the value that you are providing has shifted.

Or if you are a founder of the organization and many of the PE people I coach are actually shifting the way in which that company is in the world.

Not just its outer brand, not just its inner culture, but both how it works and how that can become future fit.

Because in creating those more regenerative businesses, it's also sensible for the business 'cause it's more able to adapt to this increasingly volatile world that we're in.

And it's more authentic and the energy that comes through us and comes through the business as a result of working with that authenticity is fundamentally different than the achiever energy, which is more draining and more out outer flowing.

I, when you were talking about the you and the descent, I was thinking about some of my own journey with this.

And actually I'm, uh, where we're recording.

So I'm sitting in my office and, uh, I am at my desk where the computer is and the microphone, and there was a point.

After I had sold and left my company, which was really prompted because I was feeling a dissonance that I was no longer aligned with the work that we were doing or how we were doing, or even the relationship with my co-founder.

So I'd been trying to, I'd known in fact, for a long time that I wanted to leave, but it took me many years actually to have the courage to create the situation where I, where I could leave in a sense.

And there was a point after I had left and I was making reference to my desk and my office because there was a point where I found myself, I was lying on the floor in my office.

I mean, literally I'd kind of been pulled down to the ground.

And it's kind of interesting when you sort of talk about that, the kind of you, the dip that comes and how kind of visceral actually and physical that process is, uh, as a real, real crumbling.

So a lot of what you were sharing there feels very resonant for me.

I.

It's interesting how it, and thank you for sharing that.

Um, and often we don't share.

It's interesting 'cause actually I think many of us are experiencing lots of this stuff and sometimes my work is just giving permission.

For people to start to open into something that they deeply know they want to.

Um, and because I used to be in business myself, I used to run, um, p and ls for large companies, and I've been in corporate life and I've worked with CEOs that can give confidence to other leaders in business that this isn't just something, you know, a, a hobby, that it is actually fundamentally important to your life work and to how you are as a leader.

But what I found interesting, what you were sharing there is as well as the lying on the floor and the visceral experience of, of actually connecting and dropping in to our deeper self is how it, you said it took you many years.

You, you, you knew you wanted to leave, but it almost took you many years to sort of orchestrate an environment in the outer world that felt okay for you to do it.

It's interesting, isn't it?

And how much of that is essentially fear.

If we're honest.

Um, and that's okay.

'cause that's a natural part of, of life.

And, and that, and that maybe when you look back on it, you feel better for yourself in how you did it in a way.

'cause you, you didn't just rush it and it helped process some of your journey.

And I suspect your, you journey started back then whilst you in that company, which meant that you allowed some of that you to have them whilst you in the company, which is a, a sensible thing to do.

Yeah, no, it's interesting.

I, I, I would say, yeah, it was, it's all fair actually.

Um, and, you know, it's, it's essentially fair.

'cause I think for me there was a point, and it was sort of around 2009, there were a few other things going on, and I remember having a thought, ah, I think my work here is done.

And I had the thought totally clear as day as like one of those, one of those sort of signals.

And I probably put that thought straight back into the box because it was like, I have no idea what that means really.

Well, I knew exactly what it meant, but I didn't, you know, the, the consequence of that.

And it was actually seven years before I was then out of the company.

And I think it was largely fear.

And I also think a conversation I was having with a client just now and, um, he's, uh, he's 54 and he, uh, he's just got married again and we were just having a, a catch up.

He's just come back to, back to work after, after the wedding and all of the sort of emotional, um, kind of, you know, just sort of, you know, turmoil and happening of all of that.

And he, I was asking how he was, and, uh, he had gone straight into.

You know, well, I was kind of reflecting on where am I'm 54 now.

What does that mean?

I've got, you know, 10, 20, 30, what, 30 years of, um, you know, kind of active, active life.

You know, what do I, what do I want to be?

And one of the questions that we'd explored, uh, some weeks back is this idea, which was a question which was given to me by somebody else I spoke to, uh, on the podcast, a guy called Sal Jeffries.

The, the idea of, uh, are you playing to win or are you playing small?

And, uh, we were talking about this idea and my client was sharing this with me now, reflecting on his kind of road ahead.

And I was asking him, so if you were going to play to win, what would you be doing?

And he was like, well, I wouldn't be doing this, and he works in a digital space.

I wouldn't be doing this.

My hands would be dirty, I would be outside, I would be, you know, in the gardens, you know, whether they are kinda digital, but this idea, my hands would be dirty, would be in the soil.

And it kind of really feels that, you know, he knows actually that the kind of the, the orientation of his work is somewhat in this way, but like me, there was a, there is a fear there.

There is a.

Uh, there's a nervousness I guess, about what that kind of means from a, you know, how will I earn money, what will I do, what does it mean for my company?

But the realization is there, which is actually maybe the company is no longer the thing.

'cause actually now I want to have my hands in the soil.

There you go.

And, and, and this is, it really, I mean, essentially what I'm doing is being a bit of a Sherpa guide.

Um, having journeyed through that metamorphosis a couple of times in my own life, but also helped guide hundreds of others through it.

I'm, I'm, and also my own sort of research, I suppose, is just guiding people through those phases.

cause it doesn't have to take seven years now.

There's nothing wrong with it taking seven years.

I think in your case you were younger then, and actually probably a lot of that learning was helpful.

But for someone at 54, and where they know that something needs to change, They can go, they can, they can start embarking on the change without having to upset the horses, you know?

Mm-Hmm.

Nothing outside in the outer world needs to change because that's what worries people, isn't it?

Mm-Hmm.

That's what triggers our fear is, oh my God, what's gonna happen if I can, you know, I was, I was speaking to a leader here just, just the other day.

She come from, um, the Netherlands, uh, for, for the coaching.

And, um, she was saying, oh, why, you know, I, I've made these decisions and, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, feel like I have to tell my team.

And I said, well, when, when do you feel you, um, what to tell your team?

And she said, well, you know, probably next week, so next time.

And I was like, well, why, why are you, what's, what's the, what's the need to, to convey that to your team next week?

How are, how's it gonna help them?

How does it help you?

And we just explored that and she realized that there was no need to tell them that actually all it's gonna do is panic them.

There's nothing, it's not, it's not helpful because she hasn't even got a plan yet.

And there's no, there's no need to process any of that.

It was almost that, oh gosh, I'm making a decision, so I need to tell.

No, don't, don't panic.

Don't just, just start to be conscious of this journey and start to enjoy it actually, because you're taking, you're starting to put the hands on the steering wheel of your own life.

Mm-Hmm.

And after a while, when you get used to steering the steering wheel down these first corners of the labyrinth, 'cause that's what it is really.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, and you go into your own self and so forth.

After a while you realize you don't even need to put your hands on the steering wheel.

That you can learn to trust the flow of life.

And then after a while you realize that actually you can raise out of the labyrinth and you can learn to fly.

But all of that's gonna come downstream.

And then you're gonna be in a much better place to communicate to others, 'cause others.

Don't need to know.

They want their own level of surety.

So explain to them when you are ready for that, because otherwise it has consequences that you are then needing to manage, which then put you back into being constrained about your journey.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, allow that journey to start unfolding in you.

Um, so yeah, there's, there's, I love it.

I have to say, um, I mean, I didn't always do this.

I was in business for much of my life.

Um, I did consciously go into business when I was younger, uh, because I realized there was some massive problems with civilization, but I didn't think I was gonna end up being a Sherpa guide for, um, helping people through making more meaning in their lives.

The reason I do it, or the vision behind it for me is because I, I feel without that shift in consciousness.

Exploring some of the, um, solutions that we need as a civilization, whether it be deforestation or reducing down child labor, or dealing with carbon per parts per million in the atmosphere.

Whatever these challenges are.

Without that shift in consciousness, without people actually starting to be authentic and connecting into who they are, then all these other fixtures are just gonna need more bureaucracy, more rules and regulations telling us what to do, and that one isn't gonna go down very well.

And two, isn't actually what the world needs and isn't what.

Human evolution and our journey on this planet is really all about Mm-Hmm.

So I'm not saying we won't need rules and manipulations, um, but what we do need is a consciousness that is guiding and designing those futures that we know in our hearts is true to ourselves.

So that has to be a part of this shift.

And that's why I think these, these shifts from achiever to regenerator or to tapping into who you are, are vital not just for ourselves, not just for our organizations and the people we serve, but the whole of life on earth.

so just as you, you were saying this, so this idea, when I sort of come out of the, come out of the u when I this, this transition from the ego to the regenerator, um, and is, is is another way of understanding that the, the kind of regenerator being which comes out the other side, is about tapping into who I am.

Is that, is that what that is?

Um, pretty simply, and that you are tapping into your true nature and in, and in and in working with your true nature, which actually isn't your true nature by the way.

It's nature coming through, through you.

It's a wisdom, I call it nature's wisdom, that you are, you are acting as a, a portal for life, really.

Um, you are also able to see and sense and connect to others in a different way.

Less control, manage more sense, respond less, having to know and hold on more, opening up and being with and trusting life.

And that shifts how you lead.

It shifts how you see value propositions and strategies for your organization.

And it shifts how you wish to serve.

So that inner shift informs the outer, and it's what Gandhi meant when he said, as one changes one's own nature.

So does the nature of the world change towards oneself?

And it's what other people say as well.

I mean, Carl Young, the one who looks, um, outside.

Um, dreams.

The one who looks inside awakens, and it's this, this, bringing that in, bringing that awakening in that then informs how we dream and change the world.

And the way, I guess, the way I sort of feel or understand that little bit is that it feels like what you're talking to is my ability to kind of tap into my kind of innate creativity, the sort of deep wells of wisdom, which are kind of rising through all of us, which are just sort of so obfuscated and seemingly far away.

But this idea that actually there's so much creativity coming.

I know I was talking to a another friend, a client a few months ago, a few months back, and I was trying to articulate it that way, but the way you talk about it is, is much kind of easier.

'cause in a sense, when I use the word creativity, I think he was going to base, oh, creativity is like writing songs or painting a picture.

Whereas I just see your ability to adapt, your ability to respond, your ability to really kind of flow with changing circumstances or the changing context of your work, of your life, whatever it may be.

So your ability to kind of dance with that flow, with that response to that,

Totally.

And I could go further with that if we wished, which is that everything is a tension when we get really into nature and we sense into how nature works, it's a tension.

And that tension rises out of the stillness, if you like, the field, whatever.

And we need to connect to that stillness.

We have to connection to our own center point is important.

That's where our true nature flows in from.

But as it comes into us, it has, it holds a tension.

And that tension is often then seen as a duality or a polarity.

And the mind then wishes to try and collapse the tension because the tension's slightly uncomfortable.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, so we kind of lead to solve the tension.

And in solving the tension, the easy way is to even find one end of the tension, right?

And the other one wrong.

So we grasp simple, quick.

Solutions.

But the trick is to hold that tension.

That's what creates creativity.

That's what enables things to manifest in life.

And we see this in everything.

We see this in the cells.

We see this in the membranes with plants.

We see this in our own DNA.

We see this in our body minds with left and right brain hemispheres.

We see this in the way that we interrelate with other people with life.

So holding that tension rather than collapsing it into right, wrong, or polarities.

Mm-hmm.

Working with the yin yang tension of receptivity and responsiveness allows us to then.

A co-create with life because we are being creative in our, with our creative potential.

But evolution is not, you know, neo Darwinian thinking is, you know, um, you know, they, we, it's adapting to change, you know, so not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones that most able to adapt to change.

Now, on one level, that makes a lot of sense.

We're adapting to change.

And in this of itself that is creative.

However, it's not the sell, adapting to external change.

That's often how we think it is in a mechanistic, materialistic worldview, we think, oh, okay, outer change is happening.

We need to adapt.

Outer change is happening in the market.

Our organization needs to adapt.

No, you've just made it simple.

You've, you've collapsed a tension into just one side of outer and no inner in reality.

That cell, that being, that living, being that organizational system, whatever it is at any level, has an intentionality.

We're now finding in consciousness that these levels of intentionality are actually happening at quite significant nested levels throughout systems.

So that intentionality, that sense of purposefulness, that meaning making, that is part of the creative tension.

So the cell, the living being I am, and how the acorn is adapting to life into the oak tree.

Is part of the co-creative change.

We're not just changing to the adaptation.

The o the acorn is becoming the oak tree.

That's its intentionality and it's gonna become the oak tree, regardless of what change happens outside it.

However, the way it becomes the oak tree will be as an adaptation in response to any changes that it so chooses to participate in.

When the change comes downstream, it's not pushed upon.

It's a participation in how is the intentionality of this cell adapting to this change?

How am I going to engage with the changing sunlight?

How am I gonna en engage with a changing market?

How am I gonna engage in my life with the fact that my, my relative has now, uh, become, uh, disabled, whatever it is, and you adapt to that.

It's a dynamic.

It's a co-creative venture.

And so the creativity is neither you.

With your intentionality or the outer change and I'm adapting to it.

It's a dance and it's a tension.

Now I know that might feel very subtle, but it just changes the way in which we then engage with life.

'cause we are engaging in a participatory venture with dance all the time.

And that dance is any dancer, knows, requires stillness, requires us to connect to ourselves and our intentionality.

And then a movement of fluidity.

So we are not getting too stuck, just like the oak tree nose to bend and change with the wind.

Mm.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

It, it is a very subtle thing, and also in many ways I could really, uh, imagine a very difficult thing to, um, to, to really understand.

In some ways it's like, because I, I guess so much of the culture and the stories that we've inherited is this idea that I'm somehow here in my little thing, and then I am, you know, stuff reigns down on me, you know?

And so like, whether that's like me in my organization, whether it's my organization in the, in the kind of in the world at large, this idea that somehow I'm just trying to hold myself steady while sort of, you know, meteors fly in from the world outside and so much of our culture has reinforced that story.

So it is a subtle thing.

And, and in many ways is that an, is that an understanding which you, in your experience, people struggle to understand?

Yes.

And it's, it's not easy.

It's a, it's a, it's a discipline in many ways.

Much of the martial art, philosophy is based on that.

And it's the difference between Aikido and some of the other is really to be able to work with the dance of life.

And it requires trust.

We're back to your fear again.

The thing that gets in the way of it is fear.

It's actually, sometimes it makes it easier for the ego to know how to struggle against change out there because we've become so hardwired with it.

So let me just stick with that drama because I know how to deal with fear and I've got quite good at dealing with fear.

That's the achiever, wanting to just hold onto the achiever, even though it knows the achieving is getting more and more difficult and the distance is getting worse.

It's almost like, yeah, but I don't wanna give it up because I'm kind of quite good at it, or I just know how to do it and I don't know.

That dance that you're talking about.

Gosh, can I really, um, can I trust that?

Um, and in reality.

It's not just jumping to another thing, it's being an achiever and a regenerator we still need to be able to achieve.

But with a regenerator is the base, is the ground, is the mother, the matrice that we're working in.

And then our achiever mind becomes the tool, a servant that serves that deeper master.

So we don't let go of the achiever, but we do need to let go of the achiever first for it to get out of its dominant place and allow that deeper sense of trust in life to come in so we can then bring the achiever back in.

And rest assured when the achiever comes back in, it'll try its little machinations again, with, with with fear and how it needs to, oh, you better work harder, and if you don't, you know, how is it, so all of that will naturally creep in.

Mm-Hmm.

Well, and, and maybe it's, it's too big a, a question.

The, the question which is coming up for me is what, what are some of the practices which help people get familiar with these various, uh.

These various parts of themselves?

I use nature.

Uh, I think nature is a very powerful metaphor and more than a metaphor, it's actually a transmission.

Um, for this reconnecting.

'cause a lot of this shift from achiever to regenerator is just a reconnecting back into our true nature, to nature to life, and to trusting ourselves as not self as separate.

Egos bouncing around in a hyper competitive world, but actually self is participating in this co-creative venture.

So I use the, um, nature in that way as a, not only a, etymology for, and a, and a pedagogy and and so forth.

So a way of exploring.

Uh, understanding and language.

So na even of itself, if you, if you, if you read the definition of nature now in, in the Oxford English dictionary, it'll just say it's, it's a collection of things out there.

Mm.

Um, so we've, we've, we've, we've actually mechanized nature.

We've turned it into something out there.

The true meaning of the nature, the nae, um, was actually a birthing process becoming, which is the very creative act you're talking about.

And that is what nature truly means, which is this inner outer participation.

Um, so I work with the seasons.

I work with, uh, the rhythms, the patterns and processes that we know in nature.

The more we're uncovering about how the woodland works, how the, the soil works, how the bacteria in our biome works.

You know, there's so much, you know, taking leaders into nature and giving them a little microscope and getting them to explore the liking on a tree.

You see their minds open out of, um, a world that has become blinkered into something that reminds them of something before.

Either from childhood or from a previous soul life, perhaps.

But it's a remembering.

And then from that window of opening, you can then start to, and then the practices are ones of sitting round the fire, or if it's coaching, um, engaging, holding a safe space that allows people to start opening up and sharing the underlying constrictions, and I call them protection rackets that we've developed.

To keep ourselves safe and to allow them to start to crumble and, and, and feel that you're in a safe enough space that you can allow them to crumble and realize that we're all actually holding often the same protection rackets.

Um, and yeah, they kind of creating the space for those, those things to crumble.

Uh, I also really enjoyed the.

The, that thought that you just kind of pointed to this idea of, of kind of finding something which has been lost, uh, a little bit, you know, uh, that there are the seeds a lot of the time for this work can be seen all the way back in our childhood or time when maybe we were less offended and, um, kind of more, more open and less calcified to the, the way of fighting that outer world.

And so one thing that you, you'd made reference to, um, is, you know, your, your own work.

And, um, so, you know, for, for many years it was in, you know, big, big, well-known, well established businesses, wasn't it?

I mean, you had, it was K-P-M-G-I think you were working in, is that right?

So it was just kind of useful just to paint a little picture of your own, your own work transformation.

Yeah, sure.

Um, I was very passionate about the environment when I was younger, and I had a number of, um, out body experiences when I was younger that, that sort of sent me down a path.

And, um, very grateful to my father for putting up with lots of conversations about nature and how nature works.

That actually sort of, you know, set me off in, in my thinking and my processes.

But then I made a decision after having spent some time in activism actually, to, to join business because I could see that that seemed to be the reasons everybody was giving for why we were trashing the planet.

Um, so I actually, and then I've spent, you know, over 30 years now in different forms of business and started off actually in property and finance and law.

So very much the, the edifices of the capitalist system.

And I'm looking back on law and being in law courts and so forth.

Fascinating.

Absolutely fascinating.

Even sometimes now when people send me a, a law contract or something that they want as a coach and they just want my advice on, you know, I love the intricacies of the language to XY Z, so.

Law property, very much understanding how we value assets and, and essentially carve up nature into little bits of privatization is, was an important thing for me to understand.

That's all helped inform my understanding now.

Um, but then I quite quickly worked with KPMG, um, moved into KPMG consulting and ran business transformation in KPMG for a number of years.

Um, front office business transformation and business intelligence and customer management and all that sort of thing.

And ended up being a sort of program manager as well, implementing big.

Complex programs have changed.

And over those years, I worked with all sorts of companies in different sectors and sizes, public sector, private sector, charities, um, around the world.

And then I became global head of sustainability for a French Dutch organization called atos Origin, uh, an IT services company, now atos.

And over those years, you know, again, traveled the world and, and at the time was one of the first global directors of sustainability in Europe.

So it was quite early on in the, the rise of sustainability and the business case for sustainability.

And, um, then I left corporate life, um, 12 years ago.

And over those 12 years, uh, six books and mm-hmm, lots of coaching and, um, just deepening my, my philosophy and met methodology and, and my, my craft, really my soul craft of, of, of guiding people and organizations through transformation.

I'm just curious, so the, um, those kind of early, early, um, seeds that you sort of spoke of, conversations with your dad, kind of, uh, out body experiences as you then went into business world, uh, was it, is it true to say or is it kind of fair to say that those kind of threads were lost and part of what was happening was a kind of journey back to them?

Because I'm kind of curious about how, how present or aware those things were.

you are right.

I mean, I, I, I think I would say, um, I lost some of that connection, that nature connection over the years of the intensity.

And it was very easy to get caught up in it actually.

And it was only that I made a deep promise to myself.

And I try and made certain promises in my life and always kept to them.

And there was a promise I made to myself was at some point in time after learning about business, I would make good on my promise to actually start changing the system because I have to say it was when.

I got offered a, a, a, a, quite a significant promotion.

Um, running, I was, I was running a practice for about 50 people at the time and a p and l ownership.

Um, but it was going to, you know, quadruple the size of the practice, you know, to about two or 300 people, much larger p and l, um, become a senior vice president.

It was a significant role, basically, which would've paved the way for me then to, you know, presumably if I wanted to become then a CEO of a, of a, of a business or something like that.

And so in, in my mind, I saw these two pathways.

Um, playing out.

I could hear my ego going, well, look, you know, stay in the system because that way you're gonna learn it and then you'll become a CEO.

People won't listen to you unless you're a CEO E so you need to know this because then, and that was the sort of narrative and, and you know, it's built on fear a bit as well.

Gosh, you know, can I actually leave?

Can I, you know, I've, I've done all this hard work.

Why would I want to leave and what's it gonna be like out, you know, dah dah, dah.

And if I start telling people what I truly think, you know, when they think I'm, I'm weird.

And, um, so, but the unconscious, you know, we possibly listened to that deeper unconscious.

It started blurting out.

I was listening to it.

And I remember just saying little things in meetings, like, yeah, this is all well and good, but what about, you know, the way that we're, and people would just look at me like, what?

And, and I would sort of learn to sort of shut up and think, oh, well this isn't gonna work, right?

This isn't gonna happen easily.

And um, but one particular occasion I remember just saying, show me a sign.

Just give me a sign.

Um, as if, you know, I don't know who I was even speaking to, um, but I was, had a hangover in my flat one, one Sunday evening in London and David Attenborough program.

And at the end of the program, it was about 2006, he actually said 2005, 2006, he said to, he actually spoke out.

It was a bit political back then.

No one was really being and mm-hmm.

Actually he got told off for doing it and people wrote in afterwards saying, oh, we don't expect David Berg to say, but at the end of the program he actually said, well, I just want you to know that all of this beauty that you're seeing now is being, um, irreparably damaged due to human behavior.

And if we don't do something now, and I think his words were something like, the time is now to do so.

And that was all I needed.

Boom.

I remember it being said.

It was just like, whoa, someone is speaking to me.

Um, in a way that, that was all I needed, which was just a message, just some little message.

Do I bother now or do I carry on down this path for a couple more years?

Because it was, it was a bit 50 50.

And when he said that, I stood up, I cried, I loud the suppression of all what I knew was going on in the world.

I'd just been kind of keeping under wraps to come out.

and I wrote a little note to my desk saying, I.

We begin, mm-Hmm.

I dunno who, I dunno who the royal we was.

Probably me and my voices.

And uh, and, and I walked to my bedroom.

And I remember waking up in the morning and just getting on and just starting to make change happen in my life.

Starting to say, okay, how can I change the practice I'm running?

How can I change the strategy?

Started looking at how we could help charities.

Maybe.

I started working with companies like w uh, world, uh, wildlife Fund and Greenpeace and many others.

And then I realized that wasn't good enough.

And then that was what took me into sustainable business.

And then I worked there for a number of years and I realized that wasn't good enough.

And then that was when I moved into business inspired by nature.

I had to felt being, building this connectivity to nature, to our true nature.

Was, was fundamental.

And so that started, those seeds formed back then, but it was actually David Attenborough that triggered the, um, initial, uh, process.

Otherwise, who knows, I might have been, um, a, a wealthy businessman now, you know?

That's amazing.

Thank you so much for sharing that.

I love the asking for a sign, asking for help, and, uh, David Attenborough meeting you there.

I mean, that's a, that's a kind of beautiful thing, the point at which you, um, you left, you left the work.

Um, and then when, 'cause so you, you, when you were saying 12 years ago, you left, um, and then you went and you wrote, do you, did you leave to write a book?

Is that what was happening at that point?

I actually

was, was writing the nature of business before I left.

And I remember asking my publisher at the time saying, good, do you think it's okay for me?

'cause I was looking for excuses not to leave in a way, you know?

And I remember speaking to the editor saying, look, I'm thinking of actually handing in my notice.

Do you think that's gonna affect the book?

Because if it is, just tell me.

And he said, no, I don't, I think it'll be absolutely fine, Gil.

So yeah, I handed him my notice in just before the nature of business, my first book was, was published.

And so what was going on for you then at that, that point was, was there much kind of anxiety and worry there?

I mean, what, how were you feeling at that point of that world sort of, sort of almost being seen in your rear view mirror?

Yes.

Um, well, um, a number of things, uh, I didn't feel I could possibly even tell my parents.

Um, Mm-Hmm.

I, my mother was, was, I mentioned it, half mentioned it once and she, I remember looking at me in the eyes and going, don't, whatever you do, don't.

Don't lose that job of yours job.

Um, so I thought, oh gosh, well I can't, I can't share, I can't confide with them.

And I told one or two of my good friends at the time, and again, they were the same.

Don't be so silly.

You know, you're global director or sustainability, you're doing the job you want.

You can go anywhere you want in the world.

People respect you.

Why, why?

Come on, Charles.

You know, wake up.

So it really was a case of, and this has been the same since actually a number of significant decisions including coming to Springwood here.

Often when it really comes down to it, you have to decide.

You can ask other people and you can sense out other people, but even if they all then give you the answer you don't really know in your heart is right, you do it.

And so I knew, and I planned it, I was thinking for some months, you know, started saving up a bit of cash and already, um, putting myself in a position of going down a path.

Mm-Hmm.

And it was then when I.

Knew it was actually getting to the end of the process when I had to actually hand in my notice, because it was all good thinking of it.

And gosh, it was, it was bizarre.

Again, synchronistic, I, I had three bosses at the time, a Dutch, um, senior, uh, leader, a a French and a German, and I rung the German one first because I knew he was gonna be.

Quite difficult one.

And um, as I picked up the phone, 'cause there's one thing thinking of it in your mind, but you actually speak and tell someone that you are going to be resigning.

Um, as I did it, there was a bird's nest above the door and the mother bird came out and flew to this oak tree.

And then the first bird came out and never flown in its life.

It didn't even look like it could fly.

And went from the tree to the, uh, to from the house to the tree, quite a long distance with no aerodynamics at all.

Just flapping these little things.

And, and then the second one did it but sort of hit the ground a bit.

And, and then the third one sort of spluttered and got to the trunk of the tree.

And as I was, as the gentleman was asking, uh, answering his phone and I was thinking, if they can do that, surely I can do this.

You know, and it puts things into perspective, which is cost.

We've become so cotton wooed in our life that we can't even take a hold of our own.

Now, I would like to say it's been a really easy plain sale since being self-employed over the last 12 years.

Of course it hasn't, but I wouldn't change it for the world, and it's probably been the making, making of me.

And if I had still been in corporate life, sure I would've had lots of experiences and wealth and and so forth, but I wouldn't have had the richness that I've had being out of that un foot blanket.

Mm-Hmm.

Yeah.

Amazing.

One thing I, I would like to, uh, ask about is the thread that has kind of evolved and run through the, did you say six books that you've written?

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

And, uh, kind of curious about, about that just before we come to that one other thing, which was just prompted by what you were saying there, what, um, has allowed you, do you think, to, um, to be able to see so much?

And by that I mean like, just the example you're sharing there.

You're about to phone this guy, you, you, you know, you, you have the, the presence of mind.

The presence of space, enough to notice.

The bird outside that is sort of struggling in this first line.

And the reason I saw, I was kind of struck in in Covid times, you obviously a few years ago, and everyone took, oh, you know, there's loads more birds out.

But it's like, no, there's not loads more birds out.

You are just noticing the birds and so much of how people's, you know, are kind of trundling through the day-to-day, is that just too busy to notice anything?

And I'm curious about what practices you might have had, which, which sort of afforded you the opportunity to be able to notice.

Well, I think really this is the nub of it all.

In many ways.

It's the key that opens the door is, is recognizing that our own presence, our own quality of consciousness is what's driving all of this.

Mm-Hmm.

And, you know, um, uh, mical, chick semial work on flow, for instance.

Mm-Hmm.

You know, often we think of flow as something that we need to do and we're surfing or when we're playing music or whatever, and of course it is, but to actually create flow in moments when we are potentially stressed or in a working environment, that's the challenge.

And we can bring that in and, um, through very two very simple tools, which is intention.

Attention and I explore this, uh, at the beginning of my workshops often, um, both of the words have tension in, by the way, and it's back, back to this tension we're holding the intentionality that I explained to you about the cell, adapting to its environment.

That purposefulness comes from a connection to stillness and connecting to one's center.

Um, which is a, an important practice that I would, um, develop with anyone.

I'm, I'm coaching.

And the second then is attention.

The quality of awareness.

We are, psychic energy gets drained if we are like a bucket full of holes with our tensions just flicking this way.

And that social media needing to like something on Instagram, checking our emails, um, dealing with some phone calls, multitasking.

'cause we just need to get so much through the day.

There are practices that I create for the leader to start creating space in their calendar, in their environment so they can get.

A handle on their own psychic energy.

And then actually you, you, you could start to surf, you get on top of things.

It's very important.

Without that quality of awareness, we are caught up in the illusion of separation.

We're not gonna, we, uh, there there's, there's a, there's a phrase.

Um, until you understand reality in all its stillness, you are still lost.

And I think we often think we can work out, um, our true nature from a place of, uh, books or, you know, but actually one needs to sense the presence in life, the mystery, the depth in life.

And I had have.

Out body experiences when I was younger and also through my twenties.

I've had these experiences where I've sensed the interconnectedness, but really I lost a lot of that through corporate life.

And I became super stressed and probably had versions of post-traumatic stress disorder if I really wanted to be, uh, labeled in that way.

And, uh, really became sort of, you know, um, frazzled.

And yet when I came back to nature.

Having left corporate life and started sitting extra trees again.

And I started to develop the sensitivity to notice the difference between the energies of different trees.

And it's something I invite, um, clients to as well.

And to realize that this body mind is an exquisite vessel.

It's a portal, it's a, it's a radio set, if you like, that's picking up frequencies and tuning into different, um, forecasts.

Um, and it's such an important thing that we're part of, that we're in this body mind, this vessel of ours, and let's start to appreciate it and let's start working with it and tuning it up a bit.

so where, where, so where's the, what story is unfolding through Via the Body Mind as it's expressing through the series of books that you've written?

That we are part, that, that life is the meditation, uh, that we are part of something deeply rich and wise, and that we can learn to allow our radio set to tune into those frequencies, and that we can start to find, um, our true nature, our soul, and that then that

informs us and helps us develop and co contribute to life affirming futures that we start to work with nature rather than against it.

And that is the formative foundation for regeneration.

What you said earlier, the soil, the rhizome is there, we are in it.

Um, like you're lying on the ground in your office connecting.

And then you start to work with these patterns.

And as I deepen through the books, um, we start to then explore some metaphysical principles, which is that life nature, learning from nature isn't just about patterns and principles about how outer nature works.

It's very useful, you know, relationships, um, connections, flows of energy, diversity, uh, collaboration and all of that are useful tools to apply to how we work in our businesses.

But actually behind that as we connect in is a metaphysical understanding of life as tensions, as harmonics, and that we can start to work with those harmonics and actually play music with life.

And that we have our own songline.

And that we can learn to work with.

And that that songline is part of a song of the universe, if you like, and that our heartbeat can start to find resonance with the heartbeat of the earth.

And then we start to work with life.

We become co-creative.

And that is not some nice little new age thing that is at the core of all wisdom traditions.

And it's at the core of becoming wise, becoming human.

A homosapian not just a wise being the one who works with wisdom, the one who is able to tune into wisdom and then bring that into your work.

That comes with a humbling responsibility when you feel it, because you also feel it when you're not doing it.

And so you want you, and then you are serving life, you're serving the work.

Um, you are not the work.

Your ego is a tool that helps enable it to happen rather than is in the way of it.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, so that I think is the, the, the theme throughout the books that without our deeper sense of connection to nature, without connecting to who we truly are.

We are, but lost and there's no point in trying to fix the world until you've actually started to develop that connection.

Yeah.

And it's worth kind of just, I guess, making the point.

I mean, you are, you are doing this work with people who are leading significant businesses.

I mean, this is not, totally kind of inconsequential niche things out on the, some periphery somewhere.

I know we're called peripheral thinking here, but a lot of the, the kind of work you, you are kind of fortunate to do is to bring this thinking into, you know, significant organizations, isn't it?

Yes.

um, many times with thousands, um, sometimes tens of thousands and, and in some cases a couple of hundred thousands people working with them.

But again, it's not about sites.

'cause again, there's a, there's a sort of fascination isn't there?

Mm-Hmm.

That, oh, wow.

Okay.

I, I had an organization coming here.

They, their top team will be coming here.

There's summer and you know, the.

The coach that I'll be working with, who's, it's her client actually.

She's, she's bringing them here because she knows about my immersions.

Um, was very proud to tell me that the organization had, you know, 130,000 employees.

And it was, well, yeah, fine.

You know, that's just a system and we learn to work with it.

It has patterns and principles and processes and complexities that are actually similar.

Uh, 130 people is still a complex living system.

Now, admittedly, an organization with 13 people is different.

Mm-Hmm.

But actually it's usually the budgets that are different.

Mm-Hmm.

Not necessarily the complexity of the human beings.

Mm-Hmm and actually an organization going from zero to three, to three to 13 to 13 to 130 to 130 to 1,300, and then 1,300 up.

It's, it's those shifts.

It's the actual shifts between those stages rather than actually being at the stage.

Once you're at a stage.

And let's take this example of this.

Well-known.

Company 130,000 people top of their game, although they're in a very competitive marketplace.

Um, and so each of those leaders that will be coming here run a billion dollar, uh, business units in their own right.

So there's 12 of them coming here, and each of them are running significant businesses.

Mm-Hmm.

Now they've had all their own experience and leadership development and so forth, and yet for them, they're not necessarily dealing with an upstretched change until they try and change that organization.

That's the challenge for them.

How do they embrace a change?

How do they embrace volatility to actually not just cope with complexity, but thrive amid complexity.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, it's the same as with an organization of 130 people with say, let's say a leadership team again, of 12 people each running much smaller fragments.

But if they're not used to change or they're happy with their organization trying to stay at the same level, then they've got the same problem as the 130,000 people.

The challenge is moving.

It's a bit like used to call it Secret Diary of Adrian Mole.

I dunno if you remember it.

Mm-Hmm.

Back in the day.

Yeah.

Mm-Hmm.

Talking, going through the change, going through a teenage phase, going through a midlife crisis.

It's going through something.

You then apply to a complex living system with hundreds of people or thousands of people in it.

How do you allow that system to go through that change?

And of course, it's also involves at least one or two of the leaders going through that change so they can truly empathize with what it means to invite people to bring more of their whole selves to work.

It's all well and good saying it.

It's all well and good.

Having some nice practices as a coaching culture and whatever, that encourages people to bring their whole selves to work.

But if you don't fully understand what it means to shed your skin and bring that vulnerability into the workplace where people might judge you and criticize you and you don't know how that feels, then it just becomes lipstick.

Mm-Hmm.

It doesn't become something felt.

And so that's the challenge.

Not necessarily the size of the organization, but the shift of the organization from one stage to the next.

Yeah.

Thank you for, um, for, for reminding of that because I think one of the things I often sort of think about, you know, people, particularly people who are kind of working, like lots of our listeners here, working in the kind of space of, uh, systems change and that, you know, the

subtly the thing that happens, it's like actually similar to what we've been talking about, that somehow the system is something over there.

Which I am trying to affect or kinda work on rather than the appreciation and the opportunity that comes in the understanding I am art of the system.

It is this complex adaptive unfolding system that as I change, so the system is changed, uh, and actually it's a really empowering reminder that rather than it's this sort of wall out there that I need to kind of work on

somehow.

Yeah.

I have to, uh, force my will upon.

Then the will becomes different and that you is about opening the will.

I mean, Sharma talks about open mind, open heart, open will as, as you will know, but it's really that opening will when we're really allowing our small will.

To just let go of it.

And we're connecting into the willfulness of the system and then allowing ourselves to work at that level.

And as you say, it's humbling.

Um, but it's also an easing, it's a flow creating, dance, creating rather than having to push and fix and solve the system.

And that's why we have so much burnout, not just in business, but in environmental movement or in the system change movement.

'cause we're often thinking we have to, gosh, deal with all of these changes out here.

And it's, oh, isn't it, it's a nightmare.

And how do we prioritize biodiversity loss against climate change or, gosh, well you're, it's because you're seeing it all as disconnected.

Um, get into the system, be part of the system, learn to trust the system.

And, but that requires a personal threshold crossing in my experience.

I think this kind of idea that, 'cause there there'll be people listening and I, you know, everybody listening.

Given the nature of the people who listen, everything that you speak about will be very, very kind of resonant.

Um, I'm guessing for some people more than others, there may be more or less fear involved or, uh, kind of more or less sort of doubting story about whether I can do it, whether I can't do it.

And it just sort of feels that actually the kind of welcoming place to, to get people to is just a, a, a kind of pausing, isn't it?

Okay.

Just actually, let's just pause and just let these ideas settle.

Let the experience of this settle, have some space around kind of where you are and what you're doing so that you can start to feel into some of what you are talking about a little.

Nice space and stillness to allow then what wants to emerge.

So, yeah.

Uh, great to talk with you, Ben.

Thank you for inviting me on this conversation.

Oh, no, I really appreciate it.

I really appreciate it.

And yeah, I kind of really encourage everybody to, I'll include links to all the various books.

and I know you've got a, you've got a new book account now, which, uh, uh, I haven't read.

I've, I've read, uh, leading, leading by Nature.

Uh, but I know there's a whole kind of thread of those, and I'll include those in, in the notes.

And there is a new book account now, which would be good to talk specifically about at another point.

But Charles, thank you so much.

I really appreciate your work, your insight and how you sort of make sense of this sort of fluid flickering world.

So very much appreciated.

Thank you, Ben.

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