On today's 240th episode of The Thriller Zone, your favorite host, Dave Temple, is diving into a conversation with the fabulous Lisa Gardner, who’s been busy crafting her latest thriller, "Kiss Her Goodbye."

Right off the bat, we’re digging into the heart of the story, which revolves around the intense and emotional journey of a mother and her daughter, who won’t stop searching for each other, no matter the odds.

I mean, talk about a nail-biter! Lisa shares some behind-the-scenes insights on her research process, which took her deep into the world of Afghan refugees and the challenges they face.

Folks, it’s not just about the thrills; it’s about connecting with real human experiences that tug at your heartstrings.

So grab your favorite snack and settle in, because this episode is packed with laughter, heart, and a whole lot of literary goodness!

LEARN MORE AT: LISAGARDNER.COM + FOLLOW US AT: THETHRILLERZONE.COM

Takeaways:

• This episode features an engaging chat with Lisa Gardner about her latest thriller, 'Kiss Her Goodbye', which is packed with emotional depth and riveting storytelling.
• Dave Temple, the host, shares his experiences from a podcast convention, emphasizing the joy he finds in creating nearly 300 episodes over four years.
• Listeners are treated to a light-hearted discussion about the joys and challenges of writing, including the balance between reading and creating original works.
• The episode touches on the importance of research in writing, especially focusing on real-world issues like the experiences of Afghan refugees, which adds authenticity to Gardner's narrative.
• Gardner discusses the significance of character development, particularly the mother-daughter dynamic, and how it drives the emotional core of her stories.
• The podcast wraps up with Dave hinting at exciting new projects ahead, including his upcoming honeymoon, leaving listeners eager for what's to come.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Reframe.fm
• Doctors Without Borders

KEYWORDS: podcast episode, thriller podcast, Lisa Gardner interview, Kiss Her Goodbye, summer podcast episodes, writing thrillers, character development, research in writing, emotional depth in storytelling, Afghan refugees in literature, family stories in thrillers, mystery writing techniques, Dave Temple podcast, author interviews, book recommendations, travel and writing, podcasting tips, creative writing process, overcoming writer's block, storytelling techniques

• KEYWORDS:

Foreign.

Welcome to the Thriller Zone.

I'm your host, Dave Temple.

Happy summer or close to finishing the summer.

Can you believe it?

Where has this summer gone?

Well, I'll tell you one thing, I have been working most of the summer.

Yeah, I mean show after show after show.

Yeah.

August, I slowed down a little bit.

September, I'm taking off now.

I'm pre recording the show so that we'll drop in September, which when you see this, of course it will be September.

How you doing?

But yeah, wife and I are taking a little vacation which you'll hear about inside the show as I speak with our guest, Lisa Gardner, who has written this smashing book.

Kiss her goodbye.

So stay tuned for that conversation in a moment and we'll check back in with you in, oh, I don't know, October.

I'm not going anywhere just yet.

Just hang with me.

Daddy needs a break.

Daddy and mom are going to take a vacay.

It's about time, right?

Hey, listen, before we get going into the show, let me just say thank you so much for being there.

I attended a podcast convention recently with my good friend Jonathan Ayala of Reframe fm.

And I realized something that I have really thoroughly enjoyed recording this show.

I really have.

Excuse me while, I'll take some water.

And I've thoroughly enjoyed the show four years in the making, approaching 300 episodes.

Somebody asked me the other day, how many books have you read?

And I'm like, probably close to 300.

Seriously.

Even some of the books that never made it on the show I was reading.

Couple of things are going to change here.

I'm not reading as many books as I would as I have been.

You know why?

Because I'm writing my own books.

That's right.

Oh, you want to see it?

No, I can't do that.

I have been working on this book for some time.

You're going to hear more about that inside the show too.

But I realized, and I've been talking to a couple of my good friends, Jack Stewart, Anthony Goodell, a couple of different guys, Chris Haughty and just, and, and, and they keep saying to me, dude, why are you not spending more time writing?

We know how much you love books and how much you love to write.

And, and so after four years and a lot of gray hair, can you believe the color of my hair now versus when I started?

I should pull up a, a picture of me when I first started this show, which would have been 21.

Yeah, yeah.

Browner.

Much browner.

But anyway, my point is I, I want to do some more writing.

And to do that writing, it takes research and travel, et cetera.

So that's why you're going to see me bounce in and out.

Anyway, I'm also working on something else, something very new, very fresh.

I'll share that in the coming days.

I realized I've just hit the three minute mark of babbling and we got to get to the show.

Lisa Gardner is a delightful gal.

I love speaking with her.

She's one of the good people, right?

I mean, she's just.

And she's talented.

Oh, my goodness.

I did learn a few things inside today's show that I haven't known before.

So I think you're going to enjoy that.

So without any further ado, this is your host Dave Temple saying thank you once again.

Feel free to reach out at any time atthethriserzone.com and stay tuned for some new, fresh, new fun stuff in the very near future.

David, you're such a tease.

All right, folks, here's Lisa Gardner on the Thriller Zone.

That is so perfectly framed.

Very nice top.

Very nice books display.

This poor book cover is actually a little too shiny.

We're going to do this.

We're going to put in the non glossy.

You've been at this a while.

Plus I'll hold this up from time to time and I'll tilt it forward.

I used to be a QVC host, so I, Yeah, I used to.

You know how to handle the gloss?

You got to do that.

You got to handle it like this.

One hand here, one hand here.

Always have a manicure.

And tilt forward.

Yeah.

Oh, I don't even have the manicure.

I have gardening hands.

Oh, no.

You know, one thing, by the way, we're started.

Welcome to the Thriller Zone.

Welcome back.

Thank you, David.

I'm happy we're able to make this work out.

Yes.

Thank you.

You know, one thing I don't always do, which I did with you this time, I went back to your acknowledgments.

And, and I always find every once in a while I go in there, I'm like, who, who, who are these cats hanging out with and studying with and, and thanking?

And one thing here, I, I, I think I knew this, but In March of 23, let's see, we got together and I think the last time we talked it was March of 24.

So we may have met.

That would make sense.

Yeah.

March 24th, the last book.

Yep.

But you were you playing, literally playing with gray whales in Baja's California Magdalena Bay.

Oh, it was a fabulous trip.

You go out and it was National Geographic, and you just sit in little boats and the whales will come choose you.

So particularly the younger whales will play with the boats.

We had one day a large whale, it was blowing bubbles.

They'll dive under and around, and they're just curious and they just seem to enjoy, you know, amusing themselves.

Two things come to my mind.

Whales and.

And dolphins have this love of humans.

And.

And then on top of that, something that completely surprised me.

And.

And if you trust Instagram, Lisa, if you trust Instagram, I'm watching all these people hanging out with sharks and come to find out, I always thought the sharks are predators and we're just going to eat you regardless.

But some of these cats are under the water petting the sharks noses and, you know, some of them have rescued them in the past and the sharks know how to find them again, so they're operating on a different frequency than we are.

As a thriller author, perhaps I should be petting sharks, but I might not actually be that brave a traveler.

I've done some pretty weird things.

I'm going to stick to petting dogs.

Okay.

Yes.

I have mine on my lap in position right now.

And what kind of dog do we have?

I have a little Carn Terrier, like a Toto.

Nice.

I love it.

Well, kiss her.

Kiss her goodbye.

Fantastic read.

We're gonna.

We're gonna jump in here just to make sure we get everything done.

But referencing this research that you do, because Baja was research, right?

Reason, Absolutely.

Okay.

I know that you're a research junkie and it shines in this book, so I want to come out.

I'm gonna come out with some heavy questions, then I'm gonna back off.

But between this refugee experience, the trauma, forensic detail, this book feels the only word I could think of because I always try to do this.

I. I read the book, I take my notes, then I go, how does it.

How did it hit you?

What does it make you feel?

I'm like, this feels lived in, this feels real, this feels organic.

It feels a little bit more like I'm watching a movie rather than reading a book, which I always.

To me, that's the best compliment I could give you.

And so to that point, do you think.

How do you think your dedication to this craft, the research, the digging so deep into real worlds shapes that emotional, psychological depth, which it does in spades of both Sabera.

I hope I'm saying this.

Sabera and Zara's characters.

So for me, Kiss or Goodbye was the most intense research I'VE done.

Because it was also different.

Yeah.

I mean, to your point, I love to research, but being a thriller author, generally it's procedural.

You know, I'm with the FBI or the police or SWAT team.

It's all really good stuff.

But I'm learning how to do something well, to write this book about Afghan refugees and the experience of coming to the United States.

And then I started to realize it is a family story.

So who they were also in Afghanistan was interviewing people.

I felt like I got to be like my heroine, Frankie Elkin, a little bit.

My job was to.

I had friends that were connecting me with various refugees, and I was amazed they were willing to talk.

And then my job was to listen and just absorb their stories.

And, oh, my goodness, the heartbreak.

I mean, you know, it's going to be heartbreaking, but, I mean, there were sessions I just cried at the end.

Sometimes I cried with them at the end.

I mean, it's a level of loss to lose your entire country, your extended family, your culture.

And, I mean, Kabul fell in, like, eight hours.

Like, I just.

It'd be like New York City was there in the morning and not in the afternoon.

Like, I just.

I can't even wrap my brain around it.

And to that point, we take, as Americans, I think we take so much for granted because we live in this safe, open society where a lot of freedom is enjoyed.

And when I read this story and I think about the folks in.

Oh, geez, I dropped the word Ukraine.

Yeah, You.

You.

You realize what we take for granted and how we shouldn't.

And when I'm.

And back to your.

My point in your acknowledgments, the volume of people that you thanked, which told me that all of this was verified, justified all along the way.

It's kind of mind blowing.

I was so blown away by how many people were willing to talk to me.

And it was also really interesting, too, because some things were challenging.

You know, when I start talking to refugees, one of the first one, a big, big chunk of the refugee experience.

I mean, because it takes years to finally get placed in the United States or anywhere in the world.

It's a UN designation, it's legally recognized, but you have to wait for your placement.

You're spending that time in a refugee camp.

And one of the first things all the volunteer coordinators told me when I was talking, speaking to the refugees here in the US that had been placed was, don't ask about the refugee camps.

They will not speak of it.

It's too traumatic.

It would be A rude thing to do for them, to put them back in that.

So don't ask about the refugee camps.

So now I'm like, but I can't relate this experience without talking about the refugee camps.

But actually the sister of my editor had volunteered in one.

And after talking to her and getting hooked up with people like from Doctors Without Borders, I mean, hearing about those experiences was in many ways even more mind boggling because, I mean, some of these refugee camps, I mean, they're like a thousand percent overcrowded, but they work because of the volunteers, because of the refugees stepping up to help other refugees.

What I learned is there are a lot of Frankie Elkins out there in the world.

There are a lot of strangers who've committed themselves to helping strangers.

Yeah.

And thank God for that, right?

Yes.

At the heart, as we know, for those who have read it or are considering reading, is a missing mom and her daughter who won't give up.

Do you connect more with the mystery itself or the mother daughter bond?

And I know that's kind of an odd question, but I was.

But I think you know what I'm.

Saying there, I feel the mystery doesn't work if you're not connected to that mother daughter bond.

That the whole point with a great thriller is what's at stake.

Right.

I mean, we like the academic puzzle, the fact that there's codes in this book and a little girl even has this very cool riddle that I didn't actually know the answer to for a while.

I mean, that's the fun stuff, but you get connected and tied into it because of the mother daughter and because it's something we can relate to as a parent, as a person.

The heartbreak and heartbreak potential is what we all relate to.

And that's one thing I walked away with.

And that's, you know, it's so funny.

We read thrillers to turn the pages and to escape and so forth.

But when you get a chance to be thrilled and moved at the same time, which doesn't happen if I'm reading two books a week, I don't, I don't run across that every month, is what I'm saying.

Lisa, There is some heart.

There is a lot of heart in a lot of the books, but there isn't the dramatic heart, loss, pain like in this book.

And, and the other thing is, you know, Frankie never stays in one place very long.

Makes me think of my radio career when I'm bouncing all over the country.

But I'm like, do you think that kind of drifting makes her stronger?

Or just more lonely.

What I love about Frankie is I'm still learning her.

I think we all are.

You know, she's an everyday person on this crazy mission, you know, to search for the vanish that nobody else is even looking for.

And it bounces her around, but in a way, I think she needs.

I think Franke, if she stays in one place too long, it's almost like gets itchy, and that's when sobriety and returning to drinking become more and more of an issue for her.

So kind of being this Rolling stone, and I think we can all relate.

It's easier to solve other people's problems.

It's a great way to kind of avoid your own.

I mean, maybe it's not the best method out there, but it's.

It's working for Frankie.

You put it.

So you put it well, because you.

You know what?

Let me.

Let me solve your problem because, geez, I do not want to put a mirror in my face.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Another thing I loved about this, and living in a Mediterranean kind of climate, as I do in San Diego, and we visit the.

The desert a lot because our families out there, the.

The.

The.

The feeling of desert was so vivid.

I mean, I. I could.

I could feel the heat coming off the page.

And it.

I get that it showed Frankie being out of her element, but I have to believe, again, circling back to my opening comment, this has to be a reflection of the love of your.

Your love of desert and.

And your travels.

That's one thing I love about your books is.

It's.

I always know.

Okay, if Lisa's talking about blank, blank, blank, blank, she's lived it.

I love Tucson, though.

I would admit one of the reasons I read about the heat so much is from the mountains of New Hampshire.

It was shocking knowing what it's going to be every time I walked out the door, it's like, oh, yeah, that's right again.

I found it to be a very visceral experience, so it's possible that it's communicated on the pages of this thriller.

You know, And I got to bring this up just as a little side note.

I was in Dallas last week for a podcast.

Podcast convention.

And, you know, I'm this.

I'm used to 72 to about 78 every single day, except maybe the dead of summer.

Oddly, it's reverse.

But I stepped off that plane.

It was 105 with 98.5% humidity.

And I had forgotten, even being from the south, just how that could smack you in the face.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

I like Using the location though is also part of the stress.

I mean, for Frankie.

Yeah, this is very stressful because not used to it.

But also when you talk about these families that are being placed and basically, you know, the murder unit means you're lucky because you got a cheap apartment.

But you know, the ACs are barely working.

I mean, again, the amount of physical, financial, emotional pressure on these families.

And I think the best thrillers, the best stories come from that place.

Now this next question is going to feel like Captain Obvious and I should, I feel like I should be wearing a cap, going, you can call me Captain Obvious.

But Zara's determination to find her mom hit me.

But did it make you think.

And it again, this is Captain Obvious.

Did it make you think about how far you would go if what you'd have to risk for family?

And I have to believe you did because to be able to put that viscerally on the page is your craft.

Well, and what I loved when I was writing it is I didn't really know what to do with Zara, a four year old girl.

And we need her because you have to have a heart to the story.

You really need a compelling reason why Frankie shouldn't just be looking for this missing mom, but she must find her.

You know, this four little girl who was born in a refugee camp, whose entire life has been trauma, needs her mom back.

And that's a little like, I don't know, Charles Dickens.

It's like, well, yeah, okay, so at a certain point I'm like, no, we actually need to know who.

Zara needs to be her own person too, her own character.

And it is a family we learn of kind of intellectual superpowers.

You know, the father's this brilliant mathematician, the missing mom has this gift with languages.

It's like, you know, Zara needs a gift and for her it's memory because what a curse also.

And it does make her this old soul.

And she, I just love when she first meets Frankie and Frankie's like, I swear she's looking right inside and she already knows every hope, regret, love, loss I've ever experienced in 30 seconds.

It's funny, you just used the exact four letter word that I said.

If it was.

If there was a tent pole holding this story up, it would be the word hope.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because that's the other thing.

For all the heartbreaking stories I heard to our point, everyone was so grateful to be here.

I mean, being.

You don't know, will you be placed so to be Placed in America is like winning the lottery.

We remain so, such a beacon of hope.

And these families have come from a terrible place.

They're facing terrible odds.

But here, there really is the stability.

You know, it's going to be tough going in the beginning, but, you know, they can.

They can work.

They do have a roof over their head.

They do have access to food.

I mean, they can start making a new future for their family.

And that is what it's all about, is all about their children, their future, and feeling safe again.

Well, another point that happens in all of your books now.

I have not read every single one of your books, Lisa.

I've tried.

I just don't have the time.

There's so many of them.

I've been busy.

But in all of your, you know, all your books, love, your love of travel shines, do you find.

Have you.

Can you imagine yourself writing a book that does not involve travel?

In other words, I'm going to sit down and do something maybe completely different, but that does not involve that number one passion of yours.

I can't imagine it.

For me, it's the refresher.

I mean, to your point, I've been a writer for 35 years now.

I've written a lot of thrillers.

So travel is often what I do right after finishing one book to kind of refill the well.

And sometimes it's ending up at a location that's so cool.

Like last time we spoke, a remote atoll which became the setting for Still See youe Everywhere.

This time it was meeting this couple.

And over dinner, they're talking about their volunteer work with Afghan refugees in Tucson.

And the more they talk about the obstacles and what this is really like.

Like, I think I know what refugees.

But then when they were done talking, it's like, oh, I. I barely knew anything.

It's like, oh, my God, this is the perfect Frankie story.

Well, again, not to make it about me, but my wife and I are gonna finally take a vacation.

It's our honeymoon.

If you wanna be really inside scoop on it.

We've only been planning this for about eight years, Lisa.

Finally gonna do it.

But we're going to London.

So what could I study in London?

And that's the first leg.

That's the first week.

By the way, folks, I'm gonna put this.

Now, if you don't hear from me much in September, it's.

Cause I'm taking the entire month off.

But London, what have you done in London that I.

You go, David, inside scoop.

You gotta do this.

Well, in that Way I'm kind of a boring traveler for you because what I love to do in London any place is just walk around.

And actually London, I love the parks.

Nice.

I mean, what an amazing collection of.

And I mean the trees are hundreds of years old and the collection of the ducks in the.

What is it?

The St. James Park.

I mean, I can do.

It's like you came all the way to London to be in parks and it's like, yes.

And it was great.

And buy a little snack at a cafe and sit in the park and watch the people.

I'm a people watcher, so.

And you know, then the next book writes itself.

So let's see, 35 books.

You must have started when you were about 7 years old.

So here's my question.

Do you.

There's, there's a couple things that I was.

As I was meditating over coffee this morning.

I'm like, I want to ask Lisa.

Ask that.

I just standard questions like, what would you write if you weren't writing a thriller?

So hold that one for a second.

You know, there's bound to be.

I, I know a writer is a writer and will write anything no matter what.

So I'd like to know what it would be if you weren't doing that number.

Do you ever say to yourself, is there ever a moment where you're afraid where you go, oh, Jesus, I'm not gonna be able to pull anything out this time, you know, I know there.

I know the gray matter is working.

I just don't have anything.

So two part question.

I've.

One of the things you get with time as a writer is you learn what helps you get in the groove or get unstuck.

Because it definitely does happen.

For me.

It's one of the reasons I live in the mountains.

Anytime I'm stuck with a book where I need the next idea, like what is going to happen tomorrow in this novel?

Because I don't block, so I'm having to find it each day is that's hiking the mountains.

It's taking my dogs and hitting the trails.

And by the end of it.

Okay, now I got it.

This is what we're going to do.

So.

Okay, hold on a second.

Tap the brakes.

You don't plot.

I would like to say like that, but it's more like two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, six steps back.

It is a messy, iterative, lots of revision along the way and Then there's this just, there's this.

All these years later, there's still this magic moment.

And it's generally toward the end where you're all of a sudden, I know what this book is actually about.

I actually, even better, I know who did it, because I don't.

And the fact that, yeah, it, you just always get that magic moment.

I think I come back for that as much as anything.

And so back to the fear point.

Is there anything that you just go, that you wake up, you sit down at the blank page, slash screen and you, you know, just something.

What's the note?

I wrote the note, very specific was what do you, what are you afraid of?

What do you fear?

I wrote it down here because I want to make sure I'm very specific.

It's, hold on, here it is.

How do you keep the fear, how do you keep the fear of failure at bay?

And what's your biggest fear of writing?

You know, this is why I love belonging to writing communities, because the fear of failure and the sense of the imposter syndrome we call it looms very large.

And I think for any artist probably is true.

I think it helps for me that I'm a character based writer.

So weirdly enough, I think that this less is my book or at a certain point, this is Sabra's story, this is Frankie's story and I'm just trying to get their story out for them and having a little bit of a distance makes it less daunting.

You know, it's so funny, when I started writing and I've got 9 self pubmed under my belt now, I was all about, ooh, make the setting the star and make sure you have all the description words you possibly can.

And with time.

I know, I know, sorry, I'm admit, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling my pants down here.

But 10 years, 20 years later, 10 years later, plus I go, all right, Dave, well, what kind of books do you really enjoy reading?

I'm like, no, no, no, I like the books that you, I got the.

You walked into a park, it's dark, a sound is in the far distance.

I'm always, I got scared.

You don't have to tell me what color the.

You know.

Yeah, so.

And your, and your stories, your stories do that because here it is, characters.

If I'm interested in the characters, I don't care what the bloody hell you do.

I don't care if you're, you're sitting in a room just talking.

And you do that for A few pages on.

Honestly, I mean, as much as I love to rip pages, if that, if those care, if I'm, if I love those characters, if I'm drawn to those characters and you're making me inspired or thinking or feeling or hurting or crying or laughing by the actions of those characters, I'm in.

And that's how I am also, even as a reader.

So it's one of the things, I mean, I don't actually care about genre.

I'll read anything.

It's the person, you know, if I care about the character.

We can be fantasy, we can be thriller, we can be cozy mystery, we can be coming of age.

And so for me it has always been about the character.

All right, now I asked you a question and then I bounced over and I'll let you slip, but I'm going to come back around.

So if you weren't writing thrillers, mysteries, suspense and you can share it with me.

We're girlfriends, you can say that.

What would you be doing?

Well, I've had many people suggest and I kind of toss it around the back of my head.

I love my dogs and animals and I've done animal rescue work and they're like, you tell funny little stories about your dog.

Like it'd be great to do like a dog book of some kind or you know, and I don't like where the dogs are the characters kind of thing.

And it's like that would be kind of fun or children's book, something like that.

I don't know.

It'd be fun.

Oh, come on.

I would so read that.

I mean we have a 12, 13, 14 month old yellow lab and.

Oh, oh wait.

Oh wait, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to.

Oh my goodness.

Adorable.

Now of course this is at, you know, six months, but the, and I've, I've had dogs in the past, but there's something magical about this dog.

Something just magical.

The way she'll look at me and sometimes talk to me.

Okay, co kids, I'm not really crazy, but I would love that.

Lisa, I especially now, I don't know your little stories from your friends, but I, I would challenge you on a whim, on a funsy.

I mean you're established enough as a baller writer.

You can do kind of whatever the hell you want to, so why not?

It's in the, you know, it's something I think about.

But in the meantime, for the record, the character that surprised me the most and kiss her goodbye that I actually threw in to challenge Myself and Frankie was Petunia, the green iguana.

Because I had a friend who had iguanas and loved them and kept telling stories about the iguanas.

Sit on his lap and he could pet the iguanas.

I'm like, you're insane.

Dogs sit on laps.

Iguana should be outside, not on your lap.

And I have to say petunia.

I mean, I loved Petunia.

By the end, I am all up on my iguanas.

Now, the juxtaposition of petunia for an iguana, yeah, that'd be like if you had a bull mastiff and you called it puff, you know, or, you know, muffin.

Petunia has attitude.

And we learned Petunia has some skills too.

So, I mean, I know I'm like all about iguana now.

All right, well, as we start to wrap, I. I asked you this before, back in March, and.

And I'm going to ask it again, only because.

And I. Geez, I. I did not remember you were a.

A panther.

What is that best writing advice that you.

Maybe you have a sticky note on your desk.

Maybe you have a pillow needle pointed across the room.

I don't even know if you're into that or not, but a mantra that you live by, something that you're you, that you tell a good friend.

Maybe not that you're going to tell a room full of strangers at a conference, but you'd say, hey, Sally, my good friend, if you had a friend named Sally.

Here's my best writing advice.

If you want to do it, just reach the end.

It can be awful, it can be the shitty draft.

We call it the vomit draft.

But you have to get to the end because then you can fix it.

But if you write a ton of short, little, even the best words in the world or the best scenes, but you never actually produce a book.

It doesn't matter how brilliant those scenes are, there's nothing you can do with them, folks.

Stitch that on a pillow.

You know, it's funny, I was worried.

I started yesterday about 5 o' clock in the morning.

I finished last night around 8.

I'm doing a. I'm building a website.

I'm doing a few other things for some people and.

But I'm also working on a book.

And at about 7 o' clock last night, I pulled out my book.

I'm looking at my notes and I don't know what it was, why out of nowhere, I was going through my notes and I'm going, oh shit.

This big chunk right Here makes no sense.

Like it makes sense, but it belongs maybe up there or there.

And I started getting freaked out and I'm like, well, that's like 12,000 words.

I can't just toss that aside.

So to your point, I thought, okay, let's just stop right now.

By then it was about 8:30, I'd had enough, go to bed, get up in the morning, get it, fresh eyes, hit it again and go, hey, at least you had all this written to your point.

Now you can just trim it out.

Yeah.

And it is weird.

There's sometimes I've written things and realized, oh, no, wait, that should be the beginning or that should be the middle.

You have it, you know, that's what you want to start with.

And you need to give yourself permission to write badly, as long as you make it to the end.

And see, this is kind of funny because.

And I'm going to sound like a real idiot saying this, but I look at someone like you with your kind of track record and tenure, and I go, well, she.

She doesn't have any problems anymore.

I'm sure there are other.

My listeners are going, you know, Lisa's.

She's an old pro.

She doesn't run into that.

So when I hear you go, oh, my God, it gives me hope.

So, yeah, kiss her goodbye.

Tortured me.

It was just.

It was so different.

And then you learn so much, and now you're bogging it down and trying to find the heart of the novel, which really, it has to be the family.

The family.

I mean, I feel like I wrote like five books to be able to give you this one.

Kiss her goodbye.

And that's highly, highly inefficient, especially for someone who's been doing this for 35 years.

Yeah.

Are you at a place, Lisa, as we close, are you at a place where you can.

And I know, look, we're all about.

Kiss her goodbye.

Folks, you're gonna wanna get this.

Tilting, tilting, tilting.

You wanna get this and read it.

You'll enjoy it.

But is there something you're working on right now we can hear about?

I'm actually really excited for my next novel, which will be a standalone for the first time in a long time.

And it takes place in the mountains of New Hampshire.

And I love the Gothics, and I grew up with romantic suspense and things like that.

So it's the mysterious young couple that buys this run that was the site of an infamous unsolved mystery where a family of six disappeared in the middle of the night and there's bloody footprints everywhere.

And there's a stray dog named Dog that knows things no dog should know.

I mean, it is really a lot of fun.

Oh, wow.

And estimated drop date, 26 next year.

That's the plan.

If you know who did it, feel free to tell me.

Lisa, thank you so much, folks.

If you want to know more, go to LisaGardiner.com Lisa is always such a pleasure and good luck to you here.

So much fun.

Enjoy your honeymoon.

Thank you.

About time, right?

Yes.

Thank you.