A lot of times we get held back by our limitations, but the truth is that most of these limitations are self-imposed and mind over matter. In this episode, Ram Gidoomal shares his journey of going from a rich boy to a refugee and then coming full circle to succeed in ways beyond his imagination. His story is nothing short of inspiring!

Here's some of the great stuff that we cover in this show:

• Ram Gidoomal is a British author, businessman, and philanthropist who has written several books, including his most recent one - The Silk Road. He decided to write this book to highlight the issues facing young Asian women and the differential treatment between men and women in their community.
• Ram was born into an Indian immigrant family of silk traders in Kenya and enjoyed an idyllic childhood in Mombasa. As he turned 17, his family endured devastating second deportation, to London. Starting from scratch, his family worked hard and eventually became very successful.
• In 1987, Ram visited the slums of Bombay and was shocked by what he saw. He joined hands with Steve Chalke to initiate Christmas Cracker, a project that aimed to raise 1 million pounds for 200 youth groups across the UK. The project ended up raising nearly 5 million pounds over 7 years.
• In 2000, Ram was approached to run for Mayor of London by a new Christian Democrat party. He agreed to run, and his campaign shifted the political agenda to focus on the needs of the carless, homeless and jobless. Gidoomal proposed issuing a 500 million pound bond to regenerate East London, and today social impact finance has reached over a billion pounds in London.

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ABOUT RAM

RAM GIDOOMAL was born into an Indian immigrant family in Kenya and has worked for over 30 years at board and senior management level in the private, public, and voluntary sectors. At present he is, among other things, Chair of Cotton Connect. Author of several books, and recipient of Honorary Doctorates from three UK universities, he is included in High flyers 50 - the 50 most eminent people of Indian origin living and working outside India. In 1998 he was appointed a CBE by HM The Queen.

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For complete show notes, transcript and links to our guest, check out our website: www.pushtobemore.com.

And again, arriving in London, lost everything.

So what can we do?

We said, look, we've come enough to buy a corner shop.

So what can we do?

We can buy a corner shop, we can work hard and we can make money to pay,

get a square meal every day, or at least breakfast, lunch and dinner.

However basic it is, we can go to the local school cause education is free

here, unlike in Africa or anywhere else.

We can, uh, get medical cover because it's all covered here.

But we can work and earn our way in.

What we will not do is take state handouts cause we've not paid into the system.

welcome to Push To Be More with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

This is a show that talks about the stuff that makes life work

and to help us do just that.

I'm chatting with the amazing Ram Gidoomal from, uh, just

from every company known to man.

It seems Ram is the most connected person that I know.

Uh, and we're gonna be talking about his adventures and struggles

as a British Asian refugee and his new book My Silk Road.

So we're gonna get into all of that.

You're not gonna wanna miss it.

Let me tell you.

Now the show notes and the transcript from today's conversation will be

available on our website pushtobemore.com.

Uh, also on our website, you can sign up for our newsletter, and each week we

will email, uh, the links from the show.

Uh, Direct to your inbox with all the notes, everything

beautifully, totally free.

Amazing.

So make sure you sign up for the newsletter Now this episode is brought

to you by Aurion Media, which helps entrepreneurs and business leaders set

up and run their own successful podcast.

Now, Ram, uh, is, like I said, an incredible network, is one of the things

that's always intrigued me, uh, about Ram, is his ability to build networks.

And one of the things that I've discovered with podcasting and doing podcasts like

this and the other podcast that I do, is it's enabled me to build networks,

which is why I think just about every entrepreneur and business leader should

probably have their own podcast because it has a huge impact on your own business.

Of course, this sounds great in theory, but in reality there's a whole problem

of setting up distribution, getting the tech right, knowing who to get on

the podcast, and getting the strategy right, and all that kind of good stuff.

Well, that's where Aurion Media comes in.

It takes care of all of that sort of stuff.

So I get to talk to cool people like Ram, uh, and they take care of everything else,

and I get to do what I'm good at, and they brilliantly take care of the rest.

So if you are wondering if podcasting is a good marketing strategy for your

business, do connect with them at Aurion Media, that's aurionmedia.com.

Uh, and of course we will link to them in the podcast and show notes too.

Now, all that aside, Ram was born into India, uh, and, and born

into an Indian immigrant family.

Let me get that right in Kenya.

And he has worked for over 30 years at board and senior management level in the

private, public and voluntary sectors.

Now at present, he is, among other things, chair of Cotton Connect.

He's the author of several books, including, My Silk Road.

We're gonna get into some of the stories of that.

Uh, he is a recipient of honorary doctorates, uh, from three universities.

I don't even have one.

Uh, he is included in the high flyers 50, the 50 most eminent

people of Indian Origin, living and working outside of India.

In 1998, he was appointed as CBE by her Majesty the Queen.

Wow.

Ram, welcome to the show.

What a bio.

I can't remember ever reading one like that before.

So it's great to have you here.

How you doing?

I'm fine.

Thank you, Matt.

And great to connect with you and, um, yeah, looking forward to a conversation.

Ah,

yeah, yeah.

You and me both.

Now you are dialing in from your home down south, and you are talking to me,

uh, from my home here in Liverpool.

But it's fair to say we've known each other a few years, uh, which

has been great, and we've, we've, we've connected over some of the many

companies that you've been involved with.

But Ram tell me, uh, my Silk Road, right?

This is your new book.

Why did you decide to write, uh, this book?

Because like we said in the bio, you've written quite a

few already, so why this one?

Yeah.

I mean, my first book in fact was called, Saree and Chips.

Yeah.

Which I wrote for a very clear reason because, uh, uh, and that was in 94

when I saw a Panorama program and that highlighted the attempted suicide

rate amongst young Asian girls being four times the national average.

Oh, wow.

It got me to look more.

I have six sisters.

Um, I'm aware of a lot of, uh, uh, the, the sort of women in our community and

I just know the differential, uh, uh, uh, between the men and women, the way

they're treated within the community.

And so as I researched more, I realized at that time there is an issue here.

That needs to be highlighted in the public square.

So I wrote my first book, uh, to highlight the fact of, of the reasons

why, uh, the attempt to suicide rate amongst young Asian women was

four times the national average.

So I wrote a book because a colleague of mine said, publish

or perish, you've got to publish.

Get your ideas out in print, put them in the public square, and that's the

one way to really make a difference.

So I followed that and it really did help me because the book

has been picked up globally.

Uh, the United States, the Chinese community have picked it up.

They said, it's not just Indians or South Asians.

This cross cultural tension and pressure is global.

So fine.

So having, and that says recently, you know, 94, the book was written as recently

as last week when I was in New York.

This was raised again, and this time at the Korean community, I was

sitting next to a Korean banker, uh, in, near Wall Street in New York.

And this guy said to me, Hey, that same issue is in our community.

So I said to my book, that's, you know, since 94.

So then when it came to the latest book, um, the, the, the, uh,

uh, lockdown was in full swing.

He says, uh, uh, I was, it was my 70th birthday.

Uh, nobody could come.

And so the children, the grandchildren, uh, unknown to me contacted must

have been a couple of hundred different people, relatives, all my

different networks, uh, connections.

And they picked up people, uh, who would then send in a video or send

in a message or send in a picture.

And they compiled this amazing one and a half hour video for me.

Oh, wow.

Which was such a treat on my 70th birthday.

Unknown to me.

Suddenly my laptop goes on, zoom is on, uh, and there they all are.

The family, children, and grandchildren.

And we go through this video and I just thought, wow.

And then the questions, who are these people?

Papa, who's this uncle?

And who's that auntie?

And so as I heard those questions, I thought, Hmm, maybe I should

write some stuff down for them.

So I started writing it for the grandchildren.

Mm-hmm.

just stories.

And as I was writing, putting stuff down on print, a friend

who's a publisher somehow got wind of this and said, you know what?

Your story is worth publishing.

I said, well, I'm not gonna publish it.

This was for my children.

If you wanna publish it, you do it.

If you have that much faith and confidence, I leave you to do it.

My Friend fantastic.

You know, that's your call.

And so he was serious.

And, uh, then, uh, I was gonna take four or five years he wanted the book

to be launched on 75th anniversary of Indian Independence from, uh, Britain.

Mm-hmm.

. Uh, so it so happens it is the 50th year since we were expelled from East Africa.

But EDM in expelling the nations.

So, um, by the way, an event we'll be celebrating on, uh, or commemorating

on Wednesday at Buckingham Palace, uh, with, with King Charles III no less,

because that is all about, you know, the 50 years since the nations were expelled

and indeed the East African Asians.

So, yeah, uh, uh, I literally went out of my way then in the, during

lockdown year and a half, accelerated the writing and got the book ready

just in time for its launch in Delhi.

On the 26th of August, I arrive at the hotel, there was the box of books, and on

the 26th, the book was launched in Delhi.

It's now being launched in London on the 25th of November.

Uh, there is plan to launch it in New York.

In fact, I was in New York last week.

Yeah.

You sent me this photo.

Right.

I thought it this photo, uh, ladies and gentlemen, uh, perfectly sums up,

uh, my understanding of Ram Gidoomal.

Uh, he sent me a photo on WhatsApp and it was you with the mayor of New York, right?

And he was holding, he was holding this, he was holding your book.

And so I'm like, Ram, how did you do that?

Go ahead, tell the story.

Well, I'll tell you the story.

I was in New York for a board meeting, uh, at this particular board, uh,

brings together a local government and, uh, wall Street business leaders

and business leaders from across the states, but really started in New York.

So Wall Street and the churches in New York.

There's an amazing pastor there called Tim Keller, who's very well known, and

his church, Redeemer Church started this along with other churches.

The idea of bringing them together was to look at what are the

issues facing our city from these three different perspectives?

Where are the gaps and where is the duplication?

How can we best use the limited resources in our cities to really

bring about regeneration, hope and life as we want to see it?

So this meeting was a board meeting which brought together local churches and local

government, and I really wasn't expecting the mayor of New York to be there.

We normally get an official from the mayor's office.

I was amazed when I got to this meeting in the morning, the

mayor of New York himself here.

I said, wow.

And this Mayor of New York is, is an amazing guy, really.

I mean, I just loved seeing him elected in.

Of course he spoke and, uh, here he was speaking about the disadvantaged in the

communities, the needs of the communities, which is why we were all there together.

So I thought, Hmm, I've got a copy of my book.

Uh, now I've had, I've had my first book, Saree and Chips with John Major.

Uh, I've had, uh, my second book, the UK Maharajas, with Tony Blair.

I've had Edward Heath in a photograph.

I mean, you know, and all these have happened, if I'm honest.

Um, I suppose the term is I had to ambush them,

but they loved it.

I mean, they're all politicians, right They'll do it.

There's a photograph, it's gonna go public.

They'll only get more votes.

Yeah.

So this time I saw him standing there and I thought, Hmm, let me have a go here.

This is United States.

I've never done it to the US.

So I walked up that book, I saw where the video cameras saw,

where the, where the cameras were.

I saw his exit path.

I sort of walked across very slowly as he approached the end of his

speech, waited patiently, and as he approached me, I said, mayor, I want

to let you know that I ran for Mayor of London in 2000 and again in 2004.

Of course I didn't make it.

You've made it.

My congratulations, Mr.

Mayor.

And by the way, would you mind if I posed with you for a photo, with my memoirs?

Of course.

He instantly took it.

Click, click, click, and the rest is history.

You got the picture, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's, it's fantastic.

It worked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

If I remember, I'll put a, I'll put the, a copy of the photo up.

It's, um,

It's interesting you talk about this Ram because I'd, like I say, this is

just my, this paints a perfect picture of you in, in my, in my opinion.

Um, I was reading through your book and you've got this beautiful sort

of Foreword by Dame Pru Lee, right?

DP Lee mm-hmm..

And in there, um, she talked about how, what was the quote?

She said, let me, let me quote it directly from the, uh, from the page.

It says here, I've known Ram a long time and I'm not surprised that

the threads that run through the book are so constant and strong.

The importance of family, hard work, constant learning, moral decency,

and Prayer matter deeply to him.

His motto, never let what can't be done stop you doing what can be done.

And when I read that, I thought that perfectly sums up Ram.

Never let what can't be done stop you from what can be done.

And um, I just, I mean, the book is just littered with these stories

where I'm like, how did you, how did you even have the tenacity to

go and do some of these things?

Right?

So I want to get into that a little bit, and I just thought that story

with the mayor was brilliant.

Uh, so thank you for sending the photo.

Uh, it made me trickle.

Um, so the podcast pushed to be more Ram If this is, uh, if this is

the intro from, uh, I'm just going back to the page from, uh, the, the.

I just thought it was brilliant from the, the, on the, uh, from

day, let me read this properly.

Dame Pru Lee.

Yeah, sorry.

Again, the names mix up in my head, but she talks about how never let what can't

be done, stop you doing what can be done.

What, where did that come from?

Why is that so embedded in your character?

Well, you know, uh, I suppose as I was growing up, uh, so for

example, um, you know, I went, I come from a Hindu family brought up in the

Sikh faith educated in the Muslim school.

So in the Muslim school, I'm in a minority, right?

And yet I made it to head boy in that school, which was a shock to the

Muslims in the school because it was always a Muslim and to many others.

And of course most of all to me.

And, you know, that, that gave me a real message that.

I had assumed until the day I actually saw the notice on the notice board.

Somebody had to take me there, said, okay, Ram, come and see.

I was 16 at the time.

They come and see on the notice board, look, you're the head boy.

I said, I don't believe it.

You know, that just can't be done.

How did that happen?

I mean, that, that is unthinkable.

I mean, what will the rest think?

What will the community think who fund the school and run the school

and the families who, who are waiting for their kid to become the head boy?

And you know, it taught me a lesson that, look, you thought it can't be done.

Some things you have done have somehow made that possible.

And, uh, and uh, I reflected back and I said, I suppose the teachers have

seen something that even I can't see.

So let me really, uh, go along with that thought of it can't be done.

You know, if you say it can't be done, look what can you do?

So to give you an example, when, when it came to, uh, for example,

running for Mayor of London.

Mm.

You can't do it.

I said, look, what can I do?

I can't put my name forward as a candidate.

Mm-hmm..

This is because of the amount of all the young people who were

telling me, do, do, do, do this.

Uh, I can go forward as a businessman.

I'm a businessman.

And Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, was asking for business leaders.

So I, I made a list of all the Can Dos.

I can do this, I can do that.

I can't, okay, maybe I won't become mayor.

I don't know, but at least I can do those things.

Let me have a go.

And so it's this having a go.

So for example, when I came to England, I arrived as a refugee.

Uh, the family were expelled from East Africa.

24 hours notice we had, we arrived in London.

Uh, and effectively it resulted in 15 of us with four bedrooms,

one bathroom and toilet combined.

And we started life.

Having had a major 15 bedroom facility in Kenya and before that in Africa, a Palace.

And I said, to answer your question, what made this possible when I look

back at my grandparents who had set up this global trading business, From the

Sindh, which is now in Pakistan, which was British India, Hyderabad Sindh.

Okay.

In India, effectively.

And they set up a global trading business in the 1890s and early

1900s supplying silk from Japan to, uh, east, central and South Africa.

How did they do that?

No internet, no teles, no telephones.

I mean, it's incredible.

Just telegrams and letters that took ages to arrive, but they did it and

they made enough money to build a palace in, in, in, in Hyderabad Sindh.

And, uh, I mean, and our cast was the lowest of the lows.

They paved their way to improve their eligibility, their, their,

um, profile within the community and were accepted, as you know.

Yeah.

These, these people are okay.

They're part of the elite.

And then they lost everything.

Partition took place.

You know, Britain divided India to several countries or whatever, and

boom, we had to flee on a ship.

And I thought back to my grandparents fleeing on a ship, arriving in Mumbasa

Kenya and having to start life again.

But they did it so they could have said, oh, we can't do anymore.

You know, we've lost everything.

But they did it.

And within years, by 1967 when we were expelled from East

Africa, they had done very well.

Mercedes cars, drivers, uh, you know, huge.

It was fantastic.

In fact, the book has a picture of our flats, of course, 50

years later, so it's dilapidated.

But these three flats all combined to give us 15 rooms as a family was

incredible in the center of town downtown.

And again, arriving in London, lost everything.

So what can we do?

We said, look, we've come enough to buy a corner shop.

So what can we do?

We can buy a corner shop, we can work hard and we can make money to pay,

get a square meal every day, or at least breakfast, lunch and dinner.

However basic it is, we can go to the local school cause education is free

here, unlike in Africa or anywhere else.

We can, uh, get medical cover because it's all covered here.

But we can work and earn our way in.

What we will not do is take state handouts cause we've not paid into the system.

That was my father's very clear message.

Yeah, I read that in the book and I thought, goodness

me, that that's quite a strong, bold statement to make a certain, cuz

this is what, this is in the six, uh, late sixties, early seventies, right?

Yeah.

So, yeah.

And the world was a very different place back then.

I tell you, uh, one of my brothers decided to go and

get a handout and came home to, um, I'll be honest with you, a beating.

This is the, yeah.

You know, this is Indian culture, our home.

He just said, don't you ever dare do that again.

You work, you pay, you earn, you do it.

So that really was what we were brought up with.

So again, it was always, what can you do?

You can work hard.

The previous owners opened the shop at seven and shut at five.

What can we do?

There was no law restricting us opening at four o'clock and having newspaper rounds.

We could, we can do that.

So we did it added value to the business.

Um, you don't have to shut at five.

Um, you know, by the time you get the evening in those days, you have the

evening standard of the evening news.

And, uh, the, you know, the last edition would come with the city prices.

So that's around six o'clock.

We said, Nope, stay open.

And then we noticed at, at nine o'clock at night.

Oh, the bingo.

You know the bingo.

Exactly.

We said, We can open the shop at night, there is no law preventing that.

So we worked around all these things and said, you know, what can we do?

What can we do?

Let's do it.

And within two years, my brothers, cousins, in-laws six shops, uh,

like a chain, uh, down the street where we could help one another.

So for example, when one of the newspaper distributors said, um, we

can't supply newspapers to to, to my brother in Chiswick and to my other

brother in Askew road, further down in Shepherd's Bush, we said, it's alright.

We'll double our order and we'll supply them.

And again, you can do that preventing me by twice the news

of the worlds and twice the times and twice of everything can do it.

So let's do that same asset now.

Greater utilization, you can do it.

No law preventing that.

And suddenly you're in and within, you know, within a year, within two years,

we were sort of at least very solvent.

And, uh, and, uh, the family was, you know, well provided for.

So, so, uh, you know, the, one of the things I'll tell you we couldn't do,

we started doing was I walked on my own to school and the first day on

my way back, boy, this was the time Enoch Powell was making speeches.

Right.

Big speeches against immigrants and that gave license to the locals to say Right.

Can beat 'em up, you know, just hassle them, abuse them.

So I'm walking back from school and might I tell you, uh, it was terrifying,

you know, three, four guys behind me.

I mean, where our school was, was a tough area.

We were placed, you know, I'd come from a very good school in Mumbasa,

Kenya, where I got, uh, five A's for my O Levels five, you know, great

top grades for my O levels and that I was now sent to this comprehensive

school behind Wormwood Scrubs.

Wormwood Scrubs is a prison.

Prison in West.

Yeah.

And so you can imagine who the inmates and their families nearby.

And so these were very tough kids and they would follow me and my sisters

said we had the same experience.

These girls were following us and she just mimic shouting right from now on.

Okay, we can't go on our road, but we can go in threes and fours.

So I'm not gonna say to them, I'm not going to school.

We can go in threes and fours stay close together.

And then the other thing we could do, I'll tell you, we bought blue

and white scarves, blue and white gloves, and blue and white hats.

Queens park rangers colors.

Yay.

Man.

I'm still a supporter of qpr.

Wow.

It's, it's a, it was like, you know, your protection, right?

And, uh, then at least half the kids wouldn't get you.

Cause it's nice, right?

He's a mate, supports our team and you know, you have to learn how to adjust

and adapt, but can do is important.

What can I do?

Always been a philosophy and continues to this day.

Yeah.

So that philosophy then, and because you read the, the book, right?

And it, I read the, that philosophy and obviously your life.

Um, I read it, uh, in the, the stories that you tell about your

family, Do, you know, what I mean.

It's like this is not just a, something that was peculiar to you.

Was it, this was something that seemed to be a part of your, uh, heritage, I

suppose, you know, from, from your family.

Something that you've.

That you've sort of bought in.

So you tried to instill this attitude with your kids and with your grandkids.

Is that part of the reason for writing the book?

Yeah.

I mean, it's a legacy.

Part of the reason really for writing the book was uh, when the publisher

sort of approached to say he's gonna do it, even if he hadn't published it.

My plan was this is a legacy for the children.

Mm-hmm.

more, more the children, the grandchildren, they were asking

the questions and therefore what future are they going to go into?

Because in a sense, yes, we've now been here since 1960s,

so it's like 50, 60 years.

Mm-hmm.

. Uh, but there's always the challenge and the tension of can what happened

in British India and can what happened in East Africa ever happen again?

So, I'll be honest with you, when, when, when Brexit happened, yeah.

I immediately called the children and said, be careful.

This is really a move in the country that is going in a direction which worries me

because, um, it really is one that's as we have in the current government, you know?

Yeah.

The home secretary dreaming of people being put on a plane to Rwanda.

I mean, I could've been one of those if I arrive, if I arrived today.

So I'm just saying, again, it was all of us saying to the children,

look, be careful and all, but always, always bear this motto in mind.

What can you do?

So we, you know, what we can do is put our heads down and walk straight and keep

working hard and don't get into trouble.

You know?

So it's that kind of thing.

And it's, it's, it's, I know sounds terrible in today's day and age

to have that kind of attitude, but that subtext of suspicion, you know,

Matt continues in society, but even if it's not obvious or seen, yeah.

At least that's subtext.

And so the, you know,

Do you find Ram?

If I, if I can touch on this point, obviously, I mean, the stories of

you getting chased and beaten when you're at school because of your skin

color is, you know, is I suppose is indicative of a time, but is very

sad when I sit here and listen to it.

Now, in the context of the, the world in which we currently live, um, have you,

do you, how do I word this question?

Has racism, um, improved is the wrong word, I suppose.

I don't want racism to improve.

It's the opposite of racism.

Have we got better as a nation, um, in welcoming people of different

ethnic Origins, for example, or do you think it's still a big problem?

I mean, to answer your question, I suppose it must be because

when you look at the government, okay, members of Parliament our Prime

Minister who has identical background to me twice migrant like me from

British India, to East Africa to here, very, very similar sort of background.

And, uh, the fact that he could make it, that the home secretaries current

and past could make it, and others, you, you look at that, there's clearly been a

significant breakthrough and improvement.

And that's only a good sign of, because it, it's happen, it is

happening at the elite level, right?

Mm-hmm.

, let's be clear.

These are people who've been through banking in the city,

Oxford, Cambridge, Eaton.

I mean, you know, they've had that, that, that background already in this

country, but it's good that they're making their way because then it makes it.

Appear normal to have that.

Yeah.

Whereas previously, I know how tough it was to even imagine that.

So like when I ran for Mayor of London, uh, I know that in terms of the media,

they just didn't want to know me.

Really?

BBC wouldn't, oh yeah.

The BBC wouldn't allow me my broadcast, even though I was eligible for one.

The, the, the, the newspapers would turn up at meetings, but

never ever give me front page or photographs in the newspapers.

It was always the other, you know, no, no, no, no.

Stick with the main people.

So, uh, I mean, I did get a hundred thousand votes.

I broke through all the sort of mindsets I could in, in the year 2000 and retained

my deposit, which shocked everybody.

I mean, the fact that, that, that, that getting that many votes, saving my deposit

and, and beating the green party created such a stir was like, who is this man?

You know, the title of the chapter in the book, who is This Man?

Was the question being.

You know, after the election, I know I got a call from Fred saying, ran.

They're asking in the House of Lords, house of Commons,

who is this man who knows him?

Where did he suddenly come from?

Hundred thousand first and second preference vote.

That's astonishing to be, and, and to save his deposit and to

technically win a seat on the London Assembly, just like that a hundred

day campaign and boom, I was there.

You know, they couldn't believe it.

Who is this man?

So from that to today where you know, it, it has shifted.

But on the ground, I must say that suspicion still exists.

Today's news headlines of uh, uh, uh, one of the centers in Dover being,

being, being, being attacked with the, with the fire bomb or something

because that's where the refugees are arriving, uh, to see, um, even when

the current Prime Minister was elected, uh, one of the radio shows lbc A caller

calls in and he makes this comment.

Look, this is England.

Uh, we are the majority English.

We cannot have a Prime minister who does not reflect us.

You know, he was passionate about that.

Wow.

So the fact that you have that.

Yeah.

And of course, uh, uh, uh, I'm not saying that the whole Brexit campaign

was racist or anything like that.

Mm-hmm.

, but I know when I, when I look at the, the, the, the tenner on the ground

that the note on the ground, you can't help thinking there's something there.

Which, which doesn't, where foreigners are not liked, yeah,

look, I mean, that's life.

Because you go to India and you got the same sort of parallel there where

the, where certain sector of the Indian population doesn't like the minorities.

Yeah.

You go to, you go to, you go to Rwanda, Burundi.

And so every country has its issues here.

So it's not unique in Britain, but the fact is we need to

acknowledge and recognize it's there, which is why there is a law.

We wouldn't need a law if everything was normal, would we?

No.

The fact the law had to be passed to give the rights tells you there is a

fundamental underlying issue here, which thank God there is a law, because in the

sixties and year right, there's no law.

No, you know, and it lawless situation.

So, you know, who would I turn to when I got assaulted?

But now I know I would go say, oh, he's breaking the law.

He's assaulting me because, and so there is that level of

structure and, and protection.

Yeah.

But, uh, ultimately every society has it, it it, to answer your question, of

course it's improved, but with every wave of new migrants who comes, come in.

Mm, it unites it.

It just revises the old battles of, uh, race and ethnicity and the violence

that sadly can, can, can follow it.

But, um, not as prevalent as certainly when I arrived.

But I speak now as one who's, who's, who's, who's been here for this period.

When I talk to the newly arrived people that every wave I've spoken to, whether

there were Sudanese in the, in the year two thousands or the Albanians

or the, the, the, uh, current wave.

I mean, the Ukrainians have been welcomed because they're European.

Yeah.

But not the Ethiopians and not the Sudanese and not the others.

So, you know, there is a differential already there in terms of priority

given to who, so these are issues that need to be worked through.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that, that, that whole

thing, um, like you say with the Ukrainians, because they're European,

but there's plenty of other wars going on, and you kind of think,

well, We're not doing this, we're not paying British households, whatever

it is, 350 some pounds or something to house refugees from other nations

from the Middle East, for example.Or wherever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, I mean, you know, I, you have your, uh, thoughts on this Ram

and I have mine and you know, my wife works with refugees and asylum

seekers, and she teaches them English.

She does it voluntarily.

Um, just things like how to get on a bus because we just show them in a

hotel and we don't give, it's just.

The whole system still needs a bit of work, I think is

probably a fair thing to say.

Spot on.

Well said.

Because I know my sister-in-law teaches refugees and I, myself and

I ran for mayor, went and addressed refugee groups and simple stuff,

you know, that no one tells you, you said, he said, oh, wish I knew.

Oh, is that all you've got to do?

Yeah.

You know, and this is how you get on the bus.

This is how you use the system.

It's um, yeah, there's basic stuff like that.

As you said, just get in the hotel and wait.

Yeah.

That's just, so how did you, um, so here you are, right?

You're, you are living in the uk, um, as a, a British, Asian refugee.

Um, you've grown this sort of business empire starting at the

corner shop, and then, you know, things grow and develop, and there's

the whole story with your education, which is just phenomenal as well.

But, so like you're saying in 2000, 2004, you thought to

yourself, I'm gonna run for Mayor.

Why would you, I don't mean to be flippant, but why?

What made you to sort of sit there and kind of go, well, I'm

gonna run for mayor cuz I can.

Well, I'll tell you what it was actually young people,

one of the sort of passions I have is encouraging young people, right?

So, which is why I started, I worked with Steve Chalke on Christmas Cracker.

You know, when I came back from the slums of Bombay, you know, the answer

to your question goes all the way back.

Quite a way back.

But the, the turning point for me was when I, I was running this

business, as you say, uh, helping run the business, I should say.

Uh, it was the extended family, uh, uh, who had started it.

And I was the UK group chief executive.

Uh, I was doing really well.

I'd moved to Geneva for eight years.

Uh, France and Geneva are now in Scotland and London and 7,000 people worldwide.

15 countries turning over $200 million.

It was just phenomenal, you know?

And this is the eighties.

Alright.

Wow.

And then I visit Bombay, India on a business trip to buy seafood

for the plants in Scotland.

Because in Scotland they were saying there ain't any fish in three months, a year.

So all the women, which who are the main workers, get laid off.

And I said, that's a bit silly.

You know, there is fish in the globe.

I've seen from my global background that there is fish in other parts of the world.

Let me go to India and get some fish.

So I went to India to buy fish and that was right everywhere.

There were ports, there was tons of fish out.

Today you're gonna import this and for the three months they don't get fish.

We're gonna make sure the workers at work.

And what does that do?

It means for three months you're not paying unnecessary money out and

losing an asset without using it.

Your unit costs go down, you're actually gonna beat the competition.

And even better.

But here I was in India at the end of a 10 day trip, uh, and uh, uh, I said to my, my

colleagues and some friends, look, I want to know what the businesses that we are

dealing with do uh, for the communities.

I just like to know it.

I'm curious and, uh, it helps me sometimes decide who I deal with

because obviously there are those who really do good work in the community.

I said they deserve the business and sometimes even if there's a

marginal difference in price, I said, no, but they're doing good.

Let's encourage them to do better and do even more.

So, I went to the, I was taken to the slums of Bombay, the largest slum in Asia.

And, uh, Dharavi this is by the way, where Slumdog millionaire was shot

many years later, but I was there in 87 and what I saw just broke me.

You know, I saw firstly the five year old boy, and I had a five year old son at

home in Scotland, in Perth, and here I was in Bombay, and I saw this five year old.

I said, oh, where does he stay?

Which box is he in?

They said, box, forget it.

He can't afford to pay the slum lord to get a space in one of those

cardboard boxes on the pavement.

Slum Lord, cardboard boxes, pavement.

So where does he stay?

They showed me this pipe.

I said, goodness mean it's huge, big water pipe.

And they said he's in there, you know, it gives him some protection

and he does everything there.

Said, can I go and have a look?

You won't get anywhere near it.

The stench is foul.

You just can't, it's unhealthy and you can't get near it.

So then I said, what about his dad?

They looked at me with the wry smile.

Well, not the right question, Ram.

Nobody knows, but mom, oh, we can tell you where she might be when they take

me just further, further around the slum and there are, there are these

cages and I mean cages and there are these young girls locked in cages and

I'm thinking, God, that can't be right.

And so it doesn't take much imagination for a man to know what's

gonna be happening to those girls.

And you know, it just broke me.

I came back and I was thinking, couldn't help thinking more

and more about what I'd seen.

It just stunned me, shocked me.

Went on my flight to, it was Air France, first class from, uh, Bombay to Paris.

Paris to Glasgow.

And when I got on the flight, you know, you go left for first class,

I went left caviar champagne.

No.

Can't touch anything.

I just sat down, waited for the lights to go out and just broke down

saying, what kind of a planet am I in?

See, I'd become a follower of Jesus.

And, uh, one of the things I learned was care for the poor.

Of course, I did my church, I did my tithe, I did my prayers

and you know, all the stuff.

I was an elder at the local church in London and all that stuff.

I said, this is not right.

Something doesn't square here.

So, um, I talked to my wife, I said, you know, I can't sit one

more day on my desk in the office.

I've got to do something about what I've seen, I don't know what.

And then a friend introduced me to Steve Chalke and he told me that he'd been

there a few months, few weeks before me.

In fact, I think three months before me maybe.

And he'd come back also devastated with the sights he'd seen in exact same spot.

And he wanted to do something.

So we were introduced to each other.

He walks into my boardroom, the story is in the book.

And uh, basically once we met, he shared with me how he'd started one little

eat less pay more restaurant, which they called Beggars Banquet in Kent.

And uh, when he shared the idea, I thought, you know, we discussed

further and he said, I want to do more of these across the country.

Cause there are youth groups all over the country.

I said, you know what?

Why don't we aim to do 200 of these?

If one of them raise 5,000 pounds, my math says 5,000 pounds,

200 give us a million pounds.

Why don't we do that?

Look for a million pounds, 200.

I said, can you deliver the 200 youth groups?

He said, well, I'll put the message out through these Christian magazines

and other networks, youth networks.

Let's see what happens.

. Well, a hundred signed up these.

I said I don't like the word beggars banquet.

Cause we ain't beggars where we come from.

Sure.

Is important.

Yeah.

So we called it Christmas cracker, pull the cracker, get a gift.

And before we knew it, Christmas cracker was born.

And over seven years through a range of initiatives.

And again, these are my business skills coming into play.

Cause when I talked to my wife after my trip to the slum, people were saying

that, you know, you're a businessman.

You've made so much for your business.

You know, I had just done one shipment, Matt, where that one shipment, 7,000

tons of chicken worth $7 million, suddenly became $21 million after

arriving at the port in Nigeria because they suddenly banned chicken

overnight, which means your commodity is scarce, which means prices go up.

That one shipment made 14 million clean net profit.

And they said in 1990, this is 1987.

Right.

That's a lot of money from now.

What that is.

So.

They said, look, you're doing all that?

I said, no, we need to use the similar skills for the people who do

not have, what can we do to really mobilize support that will help them,

not just aid, but trade and aid.

Yeah.

Teach them, you know, give them training and you know, that sort of

thing began to be very real for me.

So we, we ran the project it raised what, I think it was

nearly 5 million pounds Wow.

In seven years.

But through restaurants and, you know, innovative ideas, radio stations, one

year newspapers another year, the, the cracker, you know, the Cracker Liverpool

or the Cracker Humberside or whatever.

These, and it was real youth groups and what excited me most was 50,000 teenagers

getting mobilized to make a difference, but being challenged that when they then

grow up from teenage to adulthood, they already, adults are teenage teenagers

that really get out into the world.

They would never forget that there are, there are other communities who

need help and that they would do what they can do to help those communities.

So I was really pleased when I went to the House of Commons once, uh, this member of

Parliament approaches me, tall guy, and he picked up that I was the, one of the

co-founders, one of the chair I was the founder chairman of Christmas cracker.

He came up to me, uh, thanked me and said, you know, I'm here

today because I ran a cracker and I want to do, make a difference.

That's why I've become an MP.

Wow.

And then I met people who were in the media, radio stations, journalists,

many who said, we are doing what we did because we cut our teeth during

that time as we were growing up.

So that really thrilled me to, to, to see that impact.

So that was Christmas cracker.

And so when it came to running for Mayor of London, coming back to

your question, , why did I do that?

It's a long way to say to you, but so that you really appreciate

and understand what drives me.

Sure.

What drove me, it was, uh, um, seeing by now, of course I'd given

up my executive role, but I never gave up my business connections.

So I took on a lot of non-executive chairmanships or directorships.

Mm-hmm.

So still using my skills now to help, uh, businesses grow, to help businesses

succeed, but not spending my entire life and time just making money for myself.

Yeah.

And always helping, helping businesses that I know are going to have a

positive impact on the disadvantaged.

Mm-hmm.

. So you,the, the, the chief executives or the boards or the drivers

were really socially responsible, acceptable kind of business people.

And so, uh, one of the things I saw and, and I joined public boards, so

that's another door that opened for me.

Interestingly, by the way, through Christmas cracker, because when

I had done the first Christmas cracker, I had visited India.

My, uh, daughter shared, and she was only about six or something, shared

the story with a teacher and friends.

And so a teacher called me and said, well, would you come and speak to the

kids at school about what you saw?

Because it was this five year old kid and the little girl.

So they said, you know, they empathize with that.

Come and speak to them.

And so, um, uh, so I accepted to speak to them and you know, when I

spoke to these young kids, like, I'm not, say they were five or six me,

seven, eight, whatever their age was.

One of the little girls went home and told her mom, this Indian man came today to

school and he spoke about this thing and it was so nice to hear what they'd done.

And yeah, you know, it was really good.

Very interesting.

And I got lovely letters, which I still preserved from those kids.

Wow.

And so guess what?

This mom was the, uh, Sutton council race equality officer.

So I get a call Sunday lunchtime with my family from this lady.

Oh, she got my number.

Who knows?

And she said, Mr.

GidoomaI, you spoke at school.

My daughter was very taken.

Look, I'm the race equality officer.

We're looking for a non-executive director for the training

Enterprise Council for South London.

Wow.

Would you be interested?

I said, I dunno what it does.

Introduced me to the chief exec.

I went to see the chief exec.

And uh, so he chatted and he said, yeah, you're just the right profile.

Seat on the board.

Boom.

Once I got that non-exec role, your name gets known.

So I'm non-exec on several boards.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and, and here on this particular board, they had a presentation

from an economist and he was showing us a map because the training enterprise

council is about training and training people to get into employment.

Mm-hmm..

And clearly there are many disadvantaged communities right across Britain.

And certainly South London was no exception.

Yeah.

So he said, um, uh, uh, uh, you know, this economist comes and he looks at

this whole, he shows a map of London in 1890, a poverty map and a map

of London in 1990, a poverty map.

And the poorer areas are shaded in yellow.

Hmm.

So when I looked at it, I said, Hey, you could interpose the map

one on top of the other, and there's no difference or very little.

Oh wow.

What's happened in a hundred years?

Why can't we shift this poverty map?

Hmm.

So that really blew my mind.

And then having a right as a refugee in the 1960s, uh, when the Mayor of London

issue was in the public square, young people, and that's why I made the point

about Christmas cracker and young people, and young people came up to me and

said, um, uh, I'd done a BBC interview and one guy came as I was leaving

the White City, uh, Shepherd's Bush Studios, tapped me on the shoulder, Mr.

Gidoomal, you know, we're looking for candidates to run for Mayor of London.

We've set up a brand new party.

It's a Christian Democrat party.

And, you know, gave me all that.

I said, great, wait.

I'll give you names, mate.

Give your number.

So I call him back a week later and give him six names and said, these

six people, excellent, go for them.

He calls me back a week, two weeks later, he says, Mr.

Gidoomal, um, we've discussed it in our committee.

This all sounds very grandiose right.

Thinking, wow.

Committee, White christmas, democrat, politics.

What is this?

You know, political party.

Whoa.

He said, we'd love you to be the candidate.

I said, I'm gonna chat with my wife.

Let me do that.

Mind thinking.

Wife says, no, I can tell them wife says, No, it's an easy out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Easy out.

But you know, from the moment you made that invite to me, uh, uh, things,

my eyes opened in London, I could suddenly see that the deprivation,

I said, look, came as a refugee, you may have now made it by having the

successful business and everything else, but don't ever forget your roots.

Don't ever forget 15 of you in four bedrooms with one bathroom

and toilet and a basement.

That was an absolute disaster of a.

Can't you call the word?

I mean, it stank, and it was just terrible, you know?

But you know, when you survive, you'll do anything.

Right?

And, and, and, and, uh, I thought back to those days, I said, you know what?

Maybe, uh, these, these boys and girls have a view point.

So I told them, I'll think about it, pray about it.

And then I wanted to test the idea.

So being a businessman, I sent out, uh, I think it was like I put out a thousand

leaflets with the response slip to, to check the interest in the community.

Sure.

And, you know, I got a 10% response.

Oh, wow.

And I said, what?

And now it was to a hot list.

Okay.

I admit.

Then I put, then I put another mailing out to a cold list.

It was still not a bad, like a 3-4% response.

Now, you know, cold mailings, you get a 0.7% response if you're a

business person, even 0.1 0.2.

You know all about mailing lists and mailing, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And here I am getting a 3 to 4% response.

I said, there is something here.

I think I should throw my hat in the ring and let's see what happens.

So I agreed to do it with my wife.

We both prayed.

Agreed, let's, let's give this a shot.

And then of course I met those young people thinking there's a big, huge

group of them, , 70 or 80 of them, membership of this new political party.

The committee that met was a group of six who decided, yeah,

Ram's a good candidate to run.

Wow.

Anyway, I accepted, I agreed.

I ran, uh, the Times newspaper, broke the embargo, headline,

former refugee, throw out the ring.

Great.

I didn't mind at all.

The very first husting stands up.

And I'm not a political guy.

I have never run for politics.

I've never belonged to this kind of stuff.

And I'm called into this hostings 15 of us.

You got, uh, people like Frank Dotson, former health minister, cabinet Minister.

Mm-hmm.

You've got people like Glenda Jackson.

You've got people like, uh, uh, uh, Stephen Norris, the conservative,

former London minister, for example.

I mean, all these big shots there.

Jeffrey Archer, by the way, was supposed to be there, but there was an empty chair.

He was arrested that morning, so couldn't be there.

Maybe not that morning, but the time was big scandal about his, his situation.

So there I was number 15.

The last person, the newest kid on the block.

They were all asked, what are you gonna do for London?

So every one of them answers, you know, first one says, oh,

transport and housing and crime.

And there was a lot of stuff, you know, and the three, and you have

three minutes, 15 peoples three minutes, and you only got an hour and

a half at this particular hustings.

So they wanted it tight and then a q and a with the media.

So he answered, and you, no, Richter, scale of 0 to 10,

he got an applaud of seven.

The other candidate got maybe eight and the other one got six.

They were all doing well in the clapometer, right?

okay.

Yeah, there was a, they're all clapping.

Clapping, you know, they're like, oh, what did I get more?

Did he get more, did he get less?

You know, all that kind of stuff.

And then I'm sitting thinking, oh Lord, help me.

Why am I here?

I dunno how to speak like these guys.

I mean, these guys are posh guys.

You know, they've been to public school, they've done government ministries,

they've been ministers of state, and here I am, What can I say to these guys?

And I thought about it and I said, you know, the thought that goes

to my mind, what would Jesus do?

Go on, think hard.

Look.

Why are you running Ram?

You're running because you've thought about this.

You've seen that map of London.

You've seen the poverty map, you've seen the homelessness, you've seen all

that and you've experienced it yourself.

Just go for it.

Tell 'em about it.

So it came to my turn and I just went for it and effectively the following

day, newspaper had the headline, Mr.

Gidoomal's campaign for the Carless, homeless and Jobless

make him more radical than labor.

And the, and the, and the, and the audience that just exploded when

I gave my three minute speech.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

I, it went way beyond the 10 on the Richter scale.

Mm-hmm..

Mm-hmm..

And they all start looking around, who is this upstart who suddenly turned up

here and taken the glory of clapping.

That night, now that all sounds very good for one's ego, Matt.

But I tell you, I tell you by at night, 10 o'clock, put the BBC Radio news on.

I'm going to bed, say to Sunita, I've got to hear the headlines, what's happening.

The lead candidate is being interviewed and so he's being asked, and so what

is your policy and plan for London?

And guess what he said in his response?

Well, the carless, the homeless, the jobless and I loved it.

I just absolutely cracked up.

I said to Sunita, my wife, I said, this is fun.

In one meeting, I have shifted the agenda of the campaign.

Fantastic.

Everyone is now looking at the carless, homeless, the poor,

the disadvantaged, the refugees.

They're all trying to put out policies for these people and the next day's newspapers

were, the stories are all around that.

I thought, you know, this is gonna be fun.

I may not end up as mayor of London, may not.

Still gotta hope, but I've shifted the political agenda.

This alone has made it worthwhile entering the race.

Whether I win or not is not the issue.

I'm now going to campaign to get them all to start shifting their agenda.

And I tell you, one of the things I did, I saw, I saw a project in Sheffield.

This was an unemployment bond that was set up by my good friend Michael.

The Jubilee Center in Cambridge, the unemployment bond set up, and I saw

that David Blunkett had bought a bond and that it, they managed to raise

a, a few hundred thousand pounds to, to, to help the unemployed get jobs.

It's a very special scheme where you, where you issue bonds at 0%, so

you don't pay any interest for this.

Mm-hmm.

, in those days, it was quite a big thing because interest rates were 14, 15%.

Yeah.

But there were people who had money lying in the bank and who were prepared

to give that money at 0% if jobs were created, if the homeless were helped.

And because it's a bond, they'd get their money back in five years.

So no-brainer.

Yeah.

So they said, look, as long as the bank, you know, you take it, use it,

create the jobs, create the housing, make the change in our community.

And it's local bonds bond in sense of the term bonding and bond.

And uh, I love the idea.

I said, you know what?

I'm going to do this following.

I'm going to, I'm going, I'm going to initiate a 500 million pound

bond to regenerate and help with the needs of East London, which

I have seen with my own eyes.

And that's what I'm going to do.

And that's in my manifesto.

Wow.

And of course, when they question me, there's Newcastle new.

Newcastle was like, like, like, like half a million, million, 2 million,

uh, uh, Sheffield was half a million.

You're gonna do half a billion pounds for London in this.

I said, well, think big, think hard.

You know, when the Christmas, the Christmas Cracker Camp Initiative

started, the first interview I had with the bbc, they said to me,

so, Mr.

Gidoomal, you're gonna raise a million pounds with those 200

restaurants with 5,000 pounds each.

I said, look, if I aim for zero and raise a hundred percent, what good is that?

I would rather aim high and get some percentage of it and make a

difference to those communities.

So here I said, but go for it.

Now.

It was a struggle.

Okay?

The idea was in my manifesto, Mr.

Michael Schluter came up to me after, after the mayoral campaign,

and he said, Ram, you use this idea from that I had put in Sheffield

with my permission, you used it.

And in Newcastle, um, I know you're not mayor of London, but you believed

in it to put it in your manifesto.

I said, well, look, I'm a man of integrity.

If I put it there, it's cuz I really believe it can be done.

Yeah.

And that was year 2000.

I said, I, I know it can be done and I'm gonna make sure I do it.

So let me, let me think about it.

And then said, would you chair the initiative because I'm not a

businessman and it, it needs to be done in London, as you rightly say.

So I said, I'll share it.

Okay.

It was a struggle.

It really was a battle to get thing going.

But today we have issued over a billion pounds in social impact finance.

Wow.

Including, including bonds who in London Exchange.

So the idea in 2000 was not off, off, off offline or off, off the scale.

Again, it can be done.

Come back to That's fantastic.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, it can't be done.

Hey, if we can't do a billions right away, we can do half a

billion, we can do 2 billion.

We can now build to five.

We build to 10 and suddenly it's taken off.

When I did the account recently, I mean, I stepped down as chairman

earlier this year in April.

Uh, uh, because my, my goal was can we hit the billion and then I can, you know,

exit with dignity saying, yeah, we did it.

It wasn't just a a, a poppycock and rubbish that was going on in, in 2000.

I meant it, uh, I, I wanted it.

And we as a team, the whole team have done.

And to me, again, it can be done.

And now the skys the limit.

They're going for huge.

You know, these guys who were taking it on are just gonna go for it.

I know.

Oh, wow.

And the differents.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's a real difference on the ground because those, you know,

Mencap issued a bond quoted on the London Stock Exchange, the Golden

Lane

Housing Trust, boom.

And you know, they've now gone for a second bond and others

are doing it, and suddenly the message is getting out can be done.

That's fantastic.

Ram, there's, there's so many stories, right?

and that's what I, every time we chat, there's just more stories and I love it.

Um, so you obviously there's a lot of challenges that you face and it

can be done not, and I love that motto that, that whole concept,

that whole idea, um, What do you do?

We, we talk about being on the show, like what do you do to be, to sort

of fill your tank, to recharge your batteries, downtime, Sabbath, you

know, what, how do you, how do you stay sane and, and strong and healthy

and still in love with your wife in the midst of all of this craziness?

Well, I suppose one of the most important

things is the power of Prayer.

My wife and I, every morning, I mean, every morning since she became

a believer, and I've been following Jesus, we pray every morning.

Mm-hmm.

this morning we prayed, we look at the day ahead and we said,

let's pray for the day ahead.

Pray for the children, the grandchildren, friends, those who

are ill, those who have needs.

Just, we spend time in Prayer.

Mm-hmm.

, I, uh, I read my Bible.

You know, for me, I have a motto, another motto, no bible, no breakfast.

So that's been consistent with me for, for decades.

So that, that's one the whole spiritual side of my life, that is

a very important part of my being.

Yeah.

And then comes looking after your body.

So, uh, since lockdown and before.

Uh, walking every day.

Uh, you know, when you, when I walk, sometimes I walk with headphones,

but sometimes deliberately leave the headphones just to reflect,

just to look at nature around me.

Think, use that time.

And I do about, I, I'll walk for an hour in the morning and then later in the

afternoon, maybe another half an hour.

An hour.

Oh, okay.

And yeah, so I do about six miles a day if I can just to keep, uh, keep fit.

I don't do gym and all that because I don't have the muscles and the joints.

I can't take it.

And then swimming, I try and swim at least four or five

times a week, just 20 minutes.

I'm very religious about that 20 minutes.

I don't go for the one hour of, uh, I'm not into that.

Just if I get my 20 minutes, I'm, I'm, I'm a happy man.

And so it's that.

And then reading newspapers, my paper's The Guardian, so you

know where, where I come from.

That's a daily read.

Um, I thought it wasTthe times because in the book you

talk about saving up every day for the Times, so obviously you've put.

Yeah, that that was in Mumbasa.

No, you're right in Mum.

Absolutely right in Mumbasa.

I didn't even know that the paper called The Guardian existed and an uncle.

Encouraged me to read the Times, but he lived in Nairobi and was very wealthy.

Um, my family couldn't understand why I would waste money on a newspaper.

This was thin onion skin, you know, onion Skin newspaper in those

days because of the air freight.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I would go down and the newspaper show was down.

I would go and pick it up because he gave me that advice and read the Times.

But at home we would get another paper called The Mumbasa Times.

That was the local rag, like your guardian, local

guardian or the local free.

And, uh, this cost money very five p, I think.

And so that would come home as well with, with the current news

Daily, the local MUMBASA news.

But the Times of Britain, I would also read, not every day by the way,

because it was not cheap, but I would save pocket money to get it at least

once a week, maybe twice a week.

Uh, and, and make sure that I read it so I could understand what

was going on and, uh, that, yeah.

But in England, when I came, I discovered as a student that I was

more, I suppose, To the left or center and to the right or center.

I basically tended to be what I call during my mayoral

campaign, the dynamic middle.

I like that phrase.

I'm gonna use that.

The dynamic middle.

I like that.

Yeah.

I like to be the dynamic middle.

So on some it's bit to the right, some a bit to the left, but more, more often

than not is to the left, if I'm honest.

Mm-hmm.

and even the party I ran for, uh, was the Christian People's Alliance.

It was a Christian Democrat party, but Christian Democrats tend to be labeled

like with the Germans right wing.

Yeah.

But we aligned ourselves with the Scandinavians.

Right.

The Scandinavian Christian Democrats were more to the left of center.

But again, I said dynamic middle, I am abusinessman.

So, you know, I want aid and trade.

I want policies that can help businesses who will hopefully give for good, who

will give for good causes and, and, and help communities wherever they are.

So it's all that combined.

Not very easy, but possible.

It can be done.

There's no question of, oh, it can't be done.

It can be done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have no doubt Ram, and I'm no doubt that you'll do it.

So, uh, you obviously your spiritual life's important.

Your family's important to you.

You do physical exercise.

You, you seem to thrive when there's people around.

Um, is there

any I love it.

Yeah, I love challenges and you know, one of the things I learned during

my business, we had a training course on creative thinking and action.

Okay.

It was the best training I ever got.

How can you be creative?

And there is a whole creative process I was taught about.

I really never thought I was creative, if I'm honest with you.

Yeah.

I'm, you know, boring.

Whatever thing I'll, that's why, you know, executive type and I'll do that.

But that creativity, uh, course in a book called the Creative Manager by

Roger Evans, uh, really helped me a lot.

And today, that's intrinsic part of my thinking.

You know, the data collection, the time of reflection, uh, when you've done your

data gathering and as you reflect, you suddenly find, you get the aha moment.

Ooh, I can see something I don't see.

Four.

And then you say, okay, how do I implement it?

Not quite.

So let's get more data.

And you go around to that circle thinking, Hmm.

And then you get to a point, aha.

And that aha moment is your Archimedes.

You know?

Right.

I got it.

I think I have, I know what to do.

And so you implement.

And it's that kind of process, which is very much part of me and,

and, and, and how I look at stuff.

So either challenging mindsets, challenging assumptions

is, oh, I can't do it.

Why not?

What are the assumptions here?

How strong are the assumptions?

Which are the assumptions that can really be challenged, which are immovable?

If they're immovable, what can we do to move them?

You know?

And it's, it's that kind of thinking all the time.

And, uh, yeah, it's wonderful.

So, you know, the Covid crisis hits India.

I get a call from a hospital in, in, in which we are looking after

in, in the poorest part of India.

And when they, when they, when they talk to, when they, when spoke to

me, they said, we're in trouble.

We've been declared a covid hospital.

What can we do?

We need money to buy a generator.

You know what, my wife and I sitting there said, let's put out an appeal.

To our amazement within a few weeks.

They wanted 20,000 pounds, 230,000 pounds were raised.

Wow.

Not one, but three generators for that hospital and the rest

going to neighboring hospitals.

Wow.

And you feel can be done.

Yeah.

Well, if I'm aware of time.

Right.

So if I can, let me, uh, close with reading a quote

from the back of your book.

All right.

Uh, if I had to write a letter to my younger self, and perhaps in a way

that's what this is, I would tell him, these are the things that will save you.

You must never give up.

You must never let obstacles grow so high they seem un insurmountable.

Instead, always think about what you can do rather than what you can't.

I would tell him about the importance of creative thinking,

diplomacy, and determination.

Those things alone, however, suggest that we can do it all without help.

I would be lying if I said that this was so.

Help came from the love and support of family.

It came from principles rooted in my Indian heritage.

It came from learning from my elders.

It came through relational networking, which is genuine

friendship and compassion for others.

And yes, because I follow Christ, I also believe that many of my breakthroughs

came through the study of the Bible and through discussing things with God.

And then you go and say, but there is another perhaps more

surprising layer to this.

I learned the real secret that I didn't need all the riches and all

the recognition in the first place.

And letting go of this false need for wealth has allowed me to live freely

and generously, always having more than enough for a good life without any sense

of envy towards those who have more.

I just, when I read that, I thought, goodness me.

What a, what a way.

Uh, to end your book and what a lesson, uh, I think, uh, and thank you for not

just writing it for your family and, uh, well done to your publisher for sharing

it with the wider world because I think Ram, I've known you for many years.

We worked together on trade craft and we served on the board at Trade Craft

plc, which is a fair trade organization.

Um, I looked forward to every single meeting that you were there

because I took, I just took notes, like, how is he figuring this out?

And so thank you for being a teacher to me, uh, over all of

these years and being a friend.

Um, there have been a few times when I've just called you and gone Ram, I'm stuck.

Help.

Um, so thank you and thank you for coming on the podcast Ram.

Honestly, I feel like I could go for hours and hours and hours and

maybe we should get you back again to talk about some more stuff.

But, um, if people wanna reach out to you, if they want connect,

what's the best way to do that?

Email is the easiest way.

Uh, and it's ramgidoomal@gmail.com.

I am traveling a lot.

And, uh, that may, that may mean a long wait, but if you're prepared to

wait a time, then by all means send me an email and, uh, yeah, and, and

where I can't help, I'll make it very clear, uh, who to turn to, where to

turn to, more than happy to do that.

But, uh, yeah, be patient with me too.

And I would say to Matt, you helped me when you stepped

into the Board of Trade Craft.

I was looking for someone exactly like you.

There weren't many at all effect, nobody else.

So when you came in, the skills you brought in and the gifts you gave us,

uh, also immeasurable and something that cannot be just bought like that.

You did a huge favor to us.

So thank you for all your.

No.

No, it was great.

It was great.

Loved it.

Loved every minute.

Uh, so my Silk Road, the adventures and struggles of a British Asian

refugee, uh, is available to buy.

It might not be out straightaway cuz your publisher had to send me a couple of this.

Yeah.

If you write to the publisher, if you go on the website and put my Silk Road

Ram, you'll certainly get the publisher.

Mm-hmm.

. It's now, I believe, available in all good bookshops.

So fantastic.

Very soon on Amazon, but not yet on Amazon.

And being formally launched, uh, 25th of November.

In, in, in a food near a food bank.

Fantastic.

Of course it would be why?

Any, why would you do it any other way?

Um, so My Silk road, the Adventures and Struggles of a British Asian refugee.

Honestly, go out, buy the book, you'll really enjoy it and

buy it as a gift for people.

Uh, it's a fantastic read.

You will not be able to put it down.

I was saying to Ram before we hit the record button, but I've not actually

finished reading the book yet, uh, because I've had to try and wrestle

it off my wife, uh, who has just been absorbed by the whole thing.

Uh, we will of course link to Ram's info in the show notes.

We will link to the book and the publisher in the show notes.

Uh, so, uh, we will get those out no problem.

Uh, and you can get that for free on the website pushtobemore.com

or direct to your inbox if you've signed up to the newsletter.

Ram, thank you so much for joining me, honestly.

It's been amazing.

Thank you, Matt.

I've loved it too.

And appreciate all that, uh, you've done.

Thank you.

Oh, brilliant.

So there you have it.

What a great conversation.

A huge thanks to Ram for joining me today.

Wasn't it fantastic?

I'm gonna have to, you're gonna have to listen to this more than, more than once.

I have no doubt.

Uh, a big shout out again to today's sponsor, Aurion Media.

If you are wondering if podcasting is a good marketing strategy for your business,

do connect with them at aurionmedia.com.

That's aurionmedia.com.

Uh, we will of course link to them, uh, on the podcast website, pushtobemore.com,

uh, and also in the show notes.

Uh, so you can find Aurion anyway like that.

Now be sure to follow push to be more podcast wherever you get your podcast

from because we've got some more great conversations, uh, lined up and I

don't want you to miss any of them.

And in case no one dear listener has told you yet today you are awesome.

Yes, you are.

Uh, it's just a burden that we all have to bear.

Uh, Ram's awesome.

I'm awesome.

You're awesome.

It's just, it is what it is.

So Push To Be More is produced by Aurion Media.

You can find the entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.

The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,

Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.

Our theme music was written by Josh Edmundson, and as I mentioned, if

you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head to the website,

pushtobemore.com, where you can also sign up for the weekly newsletter

and get all of this good stuff direct your inbox totally free.

That's it from me and that's it from Ram.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week.

I'll see you next time.