Evan and Ward are joined by Jacob and Lenore from Socialist Shelf to discuss Sam Raimi's "Drag Me To Hell." Released in 2009, the film was written by Raimi alongside his brother Ivan Raimi and stars Alison Lohman, Justin Long, Lorna Raver, Dileep Rao, David Paymer, and Adriana Barraza. We discuss the obvious class divides and their effect on characters, housing, and the consequences of being a class traitor. Something which we all would like to see more of off screen.

Bring your religious reliquaries and crosses, stock up on holy water and call the B.P.R.D. - capitalism isn't the only demonic entity that shows up in this one.

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jacob: And y'all have collabed with Jason, yeah? Cold War Cinema?

Evan: No. So funny enough, we have one coming up soon. We're recording an episode

Evan: with him next week, actually.

jacob: Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Because we know him in real life.

Evan: Oh, okay.

jacob: We live down the road from each other.

Evan: Got it.

jacob: So I do local organizing spaces and stuff like that.

Evan: I think we were supposed to do it last week, and then we, or maybe it was this

Evan: week, I forget, and we ended up switching it to a- I.

jacob: Just saw y'all were mutuals, so I thought that y'all might have collabed at some point.

Evan: Yeah, we're doing Red Dawn. next week oh fine oh yeah i was saying that it's

Evan: one of those movies where i don't it's easy just to uh talk a bunch of crap

Evan: about because it's it's a crazy ride.

Lenore: The uh the original or the or the remake.

Evan: The original i don't think i've ever seen the remake.

jacob: The remake is not it's north korea and the remake which is even less plausible

jacob: that north korea sense north korea lands a ground force to occupy the entire

jacob: united states just make it china.

Lenore: If you want a red bait don't be cowards just.

jacob: Fucking make it china.

Evan: Yeah that.

jacob: Would make more sense.

Evan: I was gonna say yeah if you're gonna do it you're gonna go go china so back

Evan: in your seats get something to eat Watch this movie, don't like the Kinesian,

Evan: you.

Evan: hello and welcome to left of the projector i'm your

Evan: host evan back again with another film discussion from the

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Evan: that drop every tuesday and now on to the show all right well we'll get into

Evan: the conversation this week with jacob and lenore thank you both for being here today.

Lenore: Thank you for having us.

jacob: What's up? Yeah, glad to be here.

Evan: Awesome. And so I guess before we jump into the film in question,

Evan: we're talking about Drag Me to Hell.

Evan: Maybe Jacob and Lenore, you want to tell us about your podcast.

Evan: You have one on books called The Socialist Shelf.

jacob: Yes. Lenore, you want to take this?

Lenore: Yeah, we've been doing this for about three years now. We talk about books from

Lenore: a lefty perspective, mostly books.

Lenore: We have done other things in the past, film and stuff.

Lenore: We've gone on other shows to talk about games, other media.

Lenore: But always with an eye to tying it back to politics, tying it back to how this

Lenore: or that book relates to this or that particular moment, what it has to say about

Lenore: our material conditions, our physical quality of life.

Lenore: And of course, our mantra always is read good books and organize yourself.

Lenore: You know, if you find a work inspiring or infuriating, you know,

Lenore: and that gets you out into the street, you know, that's the highest compliment you can give us.

jacob: Yeah, definitely. We do a wide range of books too.

jacob: like we will talk about stuff we love we're just

jacob: talking about like kafka we octavia butler we've done

jacob: multiple episodes on all kinds of stuff um we also

jacob: are like have an upcoming episode on like ben shapiro's new

jacob: world so you know what if you want to hear us suffer if you want to hear us

jacob: suffer talking about a talking about lions and scavengers or jd vance's fucking

jacob: memoir or whatever the hell that's supposed to be uh you know just dance vance

jacob: uh then then uh yeah check it out but And also just on the subject of books, I'm also an author.

jacob: Jacob, by the way, I wrote a book called They Called a Rebel,

jacob: a socialist fantasy novel. And that's available for pre-order right now.

jacob: So pretty cool stuff. I'm really excited to be here. We don't talk about movies

jacob: that much on our podcast because, you know, it's not the nature of it.

jacob: But I do love films, especially when there is like wacky and wild as this one.

jacob: So I'm super excited to get into it. This is a fun ride.

Evan: Yeah, this is a good one. And so I think I mentioned before we started recording,

Evan: I hadn't seen this since it came out. So again, just as like some...

Evan: brief info on the film it was directed by sam

Evan: ramey written by sam ramey and ivan ramey came out

Evan: in 2009 and it stars alison lowman

Evan: justin long lorenna raver de ploreau and

Evan: a few others and it um kind of i don't know maybe it fell under the radar but

Evan: i sent as i do for you know for a guest i sent you a list of films and which

Evan: is wide-ranging horror drama comedy everything and you picked this one so i'm

Evan: wondering why you uh why you chose chose this one to discuss um.

jacob: We went back and forth about a couple of them but i think

jacob: one thing like both lenore and i like have a soft spot for this type of movie

jacob: like a movie that does have like cool shit in it but it's like kind of the goofy

jacob: horror there's some of the uh some you know some like camp elements but there

jacob: are genuinely like cool things that it's working with um i honestly part of

jacob: it was just like what's a movie I want to watch with.

Evan: Lenore.

jacob: It's dragging me to hell. I was like, we're going to make the trek across Atlanta

jacob: to watch a movie together.

jacob: Like, this is a movie that I would like to sit down and watch with Lenore.

jacob: It's a movie I wanted to re-watch as well. So, and also there's like a lot going

jacob: on with like the financial crisis and stuff like that in this movie that's like,

jacob: it deals with sort of that there's like this weird politics around the periphery

jacob: of it that I find very interesting.

Lenore: Yeah, it's not in a super coherent fashion, I would say. It has stuff to say,

Lenore: certainly, but it's juggling a couple of plates that it doesn't exactly land,

Lenore: and neither did that metaphor land, but oh well.

Lenore: I will say— I love landing plates.

Lenore: It's certainly not a gore flick, but it's got a little bit of that DNA.

Lenore: You know, it's got significant grossed-out elements that, again,

Lenore: aren't quite thematically tied into it, but are quite unlike a lot of things

Lenore: that you ordinarily would see.

Lenore: it's also very unabashedly slapstick which i approve yes.

Evan: And ward you had never seen this before either what did you uh never.

ward: Seen it before so like i just

ward: like saw a little snippet like oh horror movie i was

ward: like all right love horror movies let's get into this i don't

ward: need any trailers let's go in and um intro

ward: i was like oh it's gonna be serious and then when it got very unserious i was

ward: like oh i love this even more now like like i just yeah i enjoyed it to another

ward: level once it like didn't take itself so seriously i.

jacob: Mean this is a movie that features someone like cutting a rope and an anvil

jacob: falls on someone's head to like stop a monster you know like but it also features

jacob: like an old woman being told that she like can't live in her home of 30 years

jacob: anymore too and so you know there's a lot going on here.

Evan: Yeah and it's i was like looking at again i

Evan: mentioned that it's a sam raimi film and most people probably think

Evan: of when they think of sam raimi they either haven't seen

Evan: any of his early horror films like the evil dead evil dead to army of darkness

Evan: or they've only seen you know the spider-man movies and they kind of know him

Evan: from that which is such a wide range of uh of films he started with that horror

Evan: you know kind of the gross out kind of films and then did all the super Spider-Man

Evan: movies and they kind of came back to this.

Evan: I think he'd wanted to do this for a while and, you know,

Evan: Didn't maybe want to direct it. He wrote the film. I think I saw,

Evan: who did he say he was going to?

jacob: He pitched it to Edgar Wright.

Evan: Yes, Edgar Wright.

jacob: He tried to get Edgar Wright to direct it. And Edgar Wright was,

jacob: I think, working on Hot Fuzz.

Evan: Yeah. So he turned it down. So they ended up, you know, doing it later and,

Evan: you know, waiting until after the third Spider-Man movie was out.

Evan: And I, I remember seeing this in the theater and just absolutely loving the

Evan: sort of the, the stuff like little skit, like some jump scares and some of the

Evan: just unexpected grossness of it. It just, um, yeah.

Evan: And, and, and maybe this also ties into it because it came out in 2009 and you

Evan: mentioned Jacob, like the financial crisis, you know, the, the once in a lifetime,

Evan: every 10 years, financial crisis from a 2000, you know, subprime loans and all

Evan: of that. So like, how do you think if it'll.

jacob: Never happen again? Then AI is forever.

Evan: Yeah, of course.

jacob: Sorry.

Evan: Yeah, it was once in a lifetime, except last five years ago and maybe five years from now. Who knows?

Evan: But the like the politics of the film, I think you said, Lenore,

Evan: sort of a little bit confused where it maybe tries to bring in some things.

Evan: What do you all think he was going for if he was going for anything political

Evan: or making a statement, I guess?

Lenore: Well, it's as you say, certainly. There's a lot of things that he is saying.

Lenore: There's the office sexism that our protagonist experiences, of course. What was her name again?

Evan: Christine.

Lenore: Christine, yes. There's the office sexism that she goes through, of course.

Lenore: there's the um the fact

Lenore: that she yeah that asshole stew the temptation and

Lenore: the pressure to be a cog in this oppressive

Lenore: machine that you know deprives people of uh of livelihood and and of home there's

Lenore: also like some really weird uh background stuff about her having had an eating

Lenore: disorder at some point that's not really expanded or touched upon except for

Lenore: some like cheap shots that the demon gets at her. There's a demon, by the way.

jacob: It's cool, and it's my friend, Valamia. The politics, too, I think it's interesting that Raimi,

jacob: I mean, Raimi and his brother wrote this movie over a decade before it came

jacob: out, and he's pretty adamant that he wasn't trying to make a movie about the

jacob: financial crisis, but I think also it's interesting that, like,

jacob: you can make a movie about the bank denying someone access to their home,

jacob: creating a crisis, and even if you wrote it 10 years before that,

jacob: that is still about the crisis that eventually came out of that behavior, right?

jacob: So ultimately, whether or not he's like, this is a movie about the subprime

jacob: mortgage crisis, it is a movie about the crisis, both personal, moral,

jacob: and eventually systemic, that that kind of behavior engenders,

jacob: which I found that to be very interesting.

jacob: And it came out at the kind of the right time. I also found it interesting that,

jacob: Um, originally Christine Brown was supposed to be played by Elliot Page.

Evan: I saw that.

jacob: And that it was because of the SAG after strike that that didn't happen because

jacob: they didn't have time to film it before the strike.

jacob: So there's also like those class dynamics of like the looming strike that ended

jacob: up happening, uh, looming over this movie as well.

jacob: You know, there's just politics on the periphery at every angle,

jacob: uh, without quite yelling it outright.

Lenore: I, I don't know about without quite yelling it outright. Right.

Lenore: Because there's bits in the movie where people will just say straight up what

Lenore: the plot is. Like when they say, yeah, we seize the trapped equity and collect fees.

Lenore: Like they just come they just come out and say similarly, of course, the boyfriend's mom.

Lenore: Right. Who, you know, we hear very clearly her intent to break up,

Lenore: you know, Justin Long and Christine.

Lenore: Right. You need to be dating Usha Vance. Right. You know, this this girl going

Lenore: to Yale, promising law career.

Lenore: Like there's there's very little subtext in this film.

Evan: Maybe it's worth giving just a little context and we'll go through the every step of the film.

Evan: And as you mentioned, this is sort of a supernatural horror with a demon.

Evan: And it starts in the 1960s. You think war like the kind of starts off with this

Evan: more scene that seems unrelated.

Evan: But then, of course, it comes related later where a woman is trying to,

Evan: you know, prevent a child from being sort of taken and being dragged to dragged

Evan: to hell and is unable to to save him.

Evan: He does go, you know, the floor opens up and, you know, he's gone.

Evan: And then you see 40 years later, present day Los Angeles, where Christine,

Evan: played by Allison Lohman, is a loan officer at a bank.

Evan: And it's like the...

Evan: It's like slowly unravels where you sort of feel bad for Christine.

Evan: Initially, she's sort of being, again, like sort of abused by her boss.

Evan: And she's, you know, subject to sexism and sort of things from this other person

Evan: trying to take her promotion from work.

Evan: And so you kind of have this sort of maybe you feel bad for her.

Evan: But I mean, should you feel bad for her? You know, like, I mean, as the viewer, I mean.

ward: She chooses. to deny the woman alone

ward: but she's in the context of pressure societal pressure to advance in her position

ward: her job boss pressure from her sexist boss and pressure from her boyfriend's

ward: family on being able to fit in in a class dynamic so not completely innocent.

jacob: I definitely you know, you're you definitely feel sympathy for her.

jacob: I mean, especially with what ends up happening to her.

ward: A lot of mouth stuff. Yeah.

jacob: Yeah. A lot that eyes all kinds of fun stuff.

jacob: I think it wants you to feel sympathetic for her on a human level.

jacob: You know, you feel like this woman is just trying to make it.

jacob: You know, she's like opening the movie, listening to like affirmations in a

jacob: car and things like that.

jacob: But at the same time, you're supposed to be like, you know, it's an objectively

jacob: shitty decision she makes. There's not any nuance about the fact that it was a shitty thing to do.

jacob: I think the movie is just very much like, what if like a decent person made

jacob: a really shitty decision at a really bad time?

jacob: But if you want to like interrogate it more, is she really a good person?

jacob: She's working this job like she probably has denied people, you know,

jacob: stuff before. I would be shocked if she had.

Evan: Yeah. And not to mention, I mean, I think you one of you mentioned that this

Evan: leads to inevitably, you know, these decisions being made.

Evan: as you said they maybe he wrote the movie 10 years before this financial

Evan: crisis this was like a pattern behavior for banks for all this time and i think

Evan: you said lenore the the bank manager is very specifically without any you know

Evan: subtext says you know if we deny her her loan we'll get some fees out of the

Evan: you know the seizure of her house so you know they're very clearly stating that this is,

Evan: what will happen she hears this and she could have decided not to it probably

Evan: wouldn't have affected uh impacted her maybe her promotion so she still makes

Evan: the decision and to me it seems like a pattern of something she and others are

Evan: doing so you kind of feel bad for her but at the same time she makes a decision on her own.

Lenore: It is yeah this is that and the pattern certainly repeats you know not in not

Lenore: just professionally but also in her personal life like she goes to increasing lengths to,

Lenore: of course, the woman who she denies the mortgage of ends up putting a curse

Lenore: on her. We'll get into the whole politics of that.

Lenore: But she goes to increasing lengths of weird, counter-curse stuff that doesn't

Lenore: end up working over and over again, including a blood sacrifice of her beloved cat.

Lenore: And she really gets into it when she stabs that cat.

Lenore: This is somebody who enthusiastically submits to paradigms that demand her to

Lenore: perform violence on others, right? Which is what got her into this mess in the first place.

Evan: Yeah, which is interesting because you don't, some people, maybe Washington's

Evan: don't think of those decisions that she made as a bank owner as violence, but that is violence.

Evan: It's the violent nature of capitalism and the way that we treat people as number

Evan: on a page, as this poor old woman,

Evan: what is her name, Sylvia Ghanoush, this elderly

Evan: elderly woman she's clearly like not in good health on her third extension of

Evan: her mortgage she has economic problems because she was sick like this is a story

Evan: that you know hundreds and thousands of people will tell you for the last 50

Evan: years you know they got sick they couldn't make a payment they lost their house i think it's.

jacob: You know, worth noting that the movie is pretty explicit about this part,

jacob: too, where after, you know, after the denial, this old woman attacks her in the parking lot.

jacob: And there is a there's a scene where she's talking with her boyfriend later.

jacob: And the boyfriend says the quote is, look, you can't pay your mortgage.

jacob: You lose your house. It's no justification for violence.

jacob: So there's a very particular like that is not seen as violence.

jacob: That's just the rules. You noted it, but I think, yeah, Raimi really wanted to hit that home.

jacob: No, that is also a woman being driven into the street is also an attack on that

jacob: person, a more vicious attack than just punching them in a...

jacob: parking garage though maybe not a more vicious attack than damning their soul.

ward: There's even a

ward: demonstration like when miss ganoush begs

ward: for the loan they call in security yeah

ward: like it's not just violence by policy it's violence by policy enforced by actual

ward: violence whether it's by the security guards at the bank or whether it's going

ward: to be the cops that are going to forcibly evict her from her home later it goes

ward: you think she just went willy-nilly she's just back up her shit after that performance in the bank yeah.

Lenore: That is an interesting silence that the movie has what

Lenore: happens after the whole debacle in

Lenore: the parking lot um between that and when it's revealed that sylvia has unfortunately

Lenore: died um we don't see her getting evicted we don't see we don't see a length

Lenore: of time where she's like on the streets like in like serious serious precarity

Lenore: that's really like driving her health downhill.

Lenore: We don't really see the cause and effect there. It's a little bit gratuitous,

Lenore: I think, the battle in the parking lot.

Lenore: Certainly there's aspects of it I like, like where Christine defends herself

Lenore: with the stapler, like the tool of the industry that, you know,

Lenore: that has deprived this woman of her home, you know.

Lenore: But I do think it goes, it, the movie jumps the gun a little bit,

Lenore: portraying this, this person as, as at least a little bit demonic.

jacob: That is a that is a weakness of it i think is the

jacob: way they're depicting this woman sylvia ganache who is supposed to be a romani woman

jacob: um that it gets into some uncomfortable stereotypes

jacob: and also the way she's behaving you like

jacob: start to wonder if she was like a human at

jacob: all you have to like realize later she was like i when i watched this

jacob: for the first time i was like oh she denied it to like actual satan

jacob: no this is just a lady that like knows curses

jacob: um so i i will say in abstract like by itself the scene where they're fighting

jacob: in the parking lot whips so hard it's so much fun to watch bass riff that comes

jacob: in oh this is fire but I do understand the thematic weakness of like maybe dehumanizing Miss Ganesh.

ward: No, absolutely. I agree with that. And as soon as, like, Lenora said,

ward: like, the politics don't land,

ward: that was, like, the first thing that popped into my head was misguinage.

ward: And it's, like, if they didn't make her gross, if they didn't make her,

ward: like, mean or whatever, petty, then, like, the politics of this story would be much more clear.

ward: But, like, she's petty and she's really gross.

ward: So, like, it's easy to be like, oh, she's bad, too. She deserves to get her house taken away.

jacob: And it's playing into weird ethnic stereotypes about like you know their culture

jacob: and everything like that that is you know maybe not the best either i.

ward: Don't think that's culturally how romani people spit.

jacob: Like mucus.

ward: Into a handkerchief but okay like.

Lenore: Yeah jake i was talking to you about this the other

Lenore: day like the you know certainly the sexism is diegetic you know but not the

Lenore: racism in the movie like the that that particular bigotry is all in like the

Lenore: the the directorial decisions And I think it's a slightly weaker movie for not

Lenore: making the bank, that whole institution,

Lenore: what Christine is participating in.

Lenore: I think it's a weaker movie for not making it more explicitly bigoted against

Lenore: these people, of course.

Lenore: I mean, again, the film's written before the financial crisis,

Lenore: but there was explicit racial language internally at institutions like Wells

Lenore: Fargo talking about people who were denied these subprime loans,

Lenore: you know, and it's a question of, okay, so how far is this person willing to

Lenore: go within this system to secure her own comfort? You know, that's the tragedy of it.

Evan: I mean, he's like,

Evan: better movie could have played up more just how

Evan: evil the bank was and you don't

Evan: need you didn't need to make you could have still done okay

Evan: we deny this person her loan they give us a curse

Evan: but one if you don't have them be specifically romani which

Evan: again plays into those stereotypes and could have just been an

Evan: old woman like the you could have done it in a lot of other ways where

Evan: it wouldn't have to be that but and i don't know a ton about sam raimi's politics

Evan: but i would from what i do know i would say just sort of run-of-the-mill liberal

Evan: politics probably and so that's just kind of where he's coming from he's not

Evan: thinking about it too deeply you know he's just kind of going what he knows yeah.

Lenore: It's and you know again unfortunately that that that the the romani stuff is

Lenore: unfortunately quite common in um in uh american horror and like i mean media

Lenore: in general i mean you see you see stuff like that in buffy uh.

Evan: Quite famously.

Lenore: Courage the cowardly dog um although going back to like the earliest the earliest

Lenore: thing i remember about about like just like stereotypical costumes and whatnot

Lenore: is like um some of the disguises and disney's robin hood from the 70s but you

Lenore: know that's that's that's that's that's shot through a lot once you see it you don't unsee it.

Evan: Didn't seem necessary there and and that kind of gets into like sort of a secondary

Evan: politics where maybe it's not so much the the problematic aspect but we learn

Evan: so again And Justin Long plays Alison Lomans or Christine's boyfriend,

Evan: Clay, I believe is his name, which I don't know. Somehow, like to me,

Evan: like that's like the perfect name.

Evan: I don't know. No offense to anyone out there named Clay. It just in the movie. It just it just fits.

jacob: His name's Clay Dalton.

Evan: Clay Dalton.

jacob: Yeah.

Evan: Like you could just like, yeah.

Lenore: BYU.

Evan: Yeah. Yeah. And so he's a he's a college professor. They don't I don't believe say what.

Evan: he teaches. But there's a scene when Christine goes to visit him,

Evan: and he's talking on the phone with his mother.

Evan: And it's very clear that the mother does not approve of their relationship,

Evan: sees her as, you know, not wealthy enough.

Evan: And we learn later that his family is clearly extremely rich.

Evan: And probably my take on it was, they don't want them dating because he is a

Evan: college professor, clearly not a job where you're going to be making lots of

Evan: money, more generational wealth.

Evan: They want him to be dating someone that will, you know, continue the generational

Evan: wealth within their family.

Evan: And, you know, as a bank loan officer, that's not exactly, you know, the position they want.

Evan: And that aspect of it feels very accurate and maybe an area where it is, you know, correct.

jacob: You know, it gives the same energy, too, of like the way that sometimes the

jacob: biggest defenders of capitalism are people who make like 50k a year,

jacob: but the rest of the people around them make 40k a year.

jacob: That's like bank loan officer hustling to be like assistant manager at this

jacob: like tiny, like tiny, like town town.

jacob: installment, like one of five Wells Fargo's in your town to be the assistant

jacob: manager, just like hustling for what? Like the rich don't see you as one of them.

jacob: The rich, the rich scoff at you and they hate you.

jacob: You are not any happier in your life. You're not getting anything.

jacob: In fact, you're going to hell now.

jacob: But like, it is interesting to like the way that like sometimes like the biggest

jacob: like hustlers for capitalism, the same way,

jacob: you know, the temporarily embarrassed millionaire and billionaire are these

jacob: people that are working these jobs and it's like the idea

jacob: that they could be one cut above someone else or they could get one

jacob: step up and and i think the movie does a good job

jacob: showing that this character she's not a particularly vicious

jacob: person it's not like she's like i'm acting out

jacob: of hatred i'm acting out of i hate people who can't

jacob: pay their loans it's like you see all the incentives laid out before her and

jacob: it's still the wrong thing to do because they're the wrong incentives because

jacob: maybe sam ramie wouldn't say this but i would say this because the society is

jacob: set up to incentivize bad behavior a lot of the time maybe we should do something about that yeah.

Evan: And what like just to go back one like one slight thing

Evan: is we mentioned the curse so that the the sylvia ganoush

Evan: puts a curse on her by stealing a one of her coat buttons and then she returns

Evan: it and so now she has this cursed button which will play into significantly

Evan: later on and uh as a as a payoff that i actually forgotten And how that sort

Evan: of played out and was slightly, you know,

Evan: pleased or surprised again by the eventual end.

Evan: But I think that after that, they go to a fortune teller after sort of,

Evan: you know, I think maybe you already mentioned, one of you mentioned that Clay

Evan: and Justin Long's character sort of comforting her and telling her that she

Evan: had done the right thing, you know,

Evan: with her, with the not denying the loan or the extension on her loan and all

Evan: of that. and he seems to be sort of,

Evan: both very comforting but also just kind of a dick he i don't know it's it's

Evan: also kind of like the justin long there's a lot of movies where he kind of plays this.

Lenore: Yeah no you have the right of it all the men in her life are like quite patronizing

Lenore: to her and that persists like through that uh fortune teller appointment you

Lenore: know uh you know justin long's off in the corner like very openly and loudly

Lenore: skeptical like oh yeah bitches love this supernatural shit don't they like um and.

jacob: The The fortune teller is kind of cool, though. Rom is his name.

jacob: And he's got cool vibes. I like Rom.

ward: Solid.

jacob: I think he was fun to watch. He's just like the fortune teller who was like,

jacob: you must leave. Eyes get big. Very scary.

jacob: Very scared. And he's like, always going to be the guy who has got the details

jacob: on the demon, who can get you the hookup with the medium, who can tell you the

jacob: secret to maybe surviving.

jacob: You know, he's your necessary sort of wizard character.

jacob: I had a whole bit about the ROM spinoff show with Lenora that I was doing when

jacob: we were watching the ROM miniseries when.

Lenore: God, I wish we'd written some of that down. Because we were theorycrafting all

Lenore: kinds of different ways about how it— Oh.

jacob: I've got some of it written down. I can get to it.

Lenore: Oh, fuck yeah.

Evan: Well, you know, the actor who played him, Dilip Rao, this was his first film.

Evan: And then he's only done six films in his whole career. He was in this and Avatar in the same year.

Evan: And then now he's been in all the Avatars. I mean, there's a third one coming

Evan: out, but he hasn't been in many movies.

Evan: And he's in like, you know, Avatar and this and Inception.

Evan: Kind of an odd sort of odd career.

jacob: Yeah, it's pretty big roles to get with nothing else on your resume.

Evan: I know. Yeah, it's wild. And he was also in Jeopardy. He was like as like a contestant.

Lenore: Oh, wow.

jacob: He's in Jeopardy in this movie. I can tell you.

Evan: I also really liked his character. I thought it was sort of the...

Evan: Like the underlying sort of comic relief that the movie, you know,

Evan: needed and maybe could have used even more, maybe, I don't know,

Evan: to offset some of the kind of like ickiness of the other aspects.

ward: Did you find the gross mouth stuff funny?

Lenore: That was funny.

jacob: I don't know. Yeah, a lot of the gross out stuff is funny at the same time as

jacob: being icky, but it's fair enough.

Lenore: Mm-hmm yeah there there is this interesting recurring

Lenore: theme in the film of now that

Lenore: christine has gotten into this mess and you

Lenore: know wrongs the wrong you know marginalized person she's seeking out

Lenore: other marginalized people to sort of help clean up her mess for her like of

Lenore: course she's got she's got delete prow in the fortune teller um but there's

Lenore: also she eventually finds her way to uh the exorcist from the opening who has

Lenore: had who's a latino woman who's had this whole like career fighting ghosts that

Lenore: I wish we had seen a little bit more of.

Evan: Yeah, a movie about her would have been cool. Like, you know,

Evan: more about her character than, you know, the other way. Yeah.

jacob: She had encountered she's from the beginning because

jacob: she had encountered this spirit the lamia whose whole deal

jacob: is uh if you summon the lamia that's like

jacob: you know the nuclear bomb of spells it will

jacob: torture you for three days then drag you to hell as

jacob: as the film says and it will use to

jacob: torture you every like horror movie trope in a very fun way

jacob: it will rattle pots and pans it will do weird stuff

jacob: with animals it'll make you know it'll make you see

jacob: things it'll make blood come out of your nose and ruin your

jacob: dinner party yes exactly it's it's

jacob: almost giving the impression that like the lamia has been like all ghost stories

jacob: have been like about the lamia and its ilk then that it just does all these

jacob: things to you i found that to be interesting but yeah that eventually that they

jacob: will be trying to to deal with this thing uh it's a it's a nasty piece of work it.

Lenore: Also seems very easy to summon for like how powerful it is.

jacob: Well it knows it's not in any danger part.

Evan: Of like i mean you mentioned before that she ends up well you

Evan: mentioned that she goes to other people to clean up

Evan: her mess and i saw some i

Evan: saw something online someone posting either as a review or something

Evan: where that like the underlying sort of theme amongst

Evan: the film is sort of this you know the guilt that

Evan: christine feels for like kind of the action there and

Evan: then doing all these things rather than sort

Evan: of coming to terms with what she's done she's sort of i wouldn't say she's blaming

Evan: other people but she's using other people to sort of remove the guilt that she

Evan: has this whole time and i found that i thought that was like an interesting

Evan: way to to look at it because and also just like sort of as like a white woman in this film she's

Evan: it's kind of the behavior you would probably i guess expect.

ward: No i mean even when she's face to face with the lamia and like the seance she

ward: continues to be like no it was my boss.

jacob: Hey the boss did suck. Yeah.

ward: Boss totally sucked, but like, but he literally was like the balls in your court.

ward: Like, I've forced it and influenced you a fuck ton, but balls in your court.

Lenore: Oh, he, you know, yeah, Warden, absolutely right. Like, he gives her that reassurance,

Lenore: you know, after the woman's dragged out.

Lenore: Like, he gives her that reassurance that's like, look, you're at the top of

Lenore: the list. You handled that just right, you know.

Lenore: And that's in front of the dude that she's competing for the promotion with.

Lenore: He's deliberately pitting them each against the other.

ward: Oh, absolutely.

Evan: Oh, yeah. That guy, he's been in a lot of things.

Evan: Reggie Lee is the, um, the actor who played the, the like coworker too,

Evan: which she then also, you know, sort of embarrasses and kind of, you know,

Evan: screws with him later on because part of like her promotion that she's trying

Evan: to, part of the promotion,

Evan: you know, the way she's going to get it is getting some big loan from,

Evan: you know, it was like some new customer.

Evan: I don't remember the exact details of it.

Evan: And she had brought in and he steals the files to try and, you know,

Evan: either to sabotage it so that he can get the promotion. And then he sort of,

Evan: she screws him over later on and embarrasses him and considers trying to transfer

Evan: the curse to him. But yeah.

Evan: you know, the end of the day, she wasn't able to.

jacob: I find, you know, after she gets tortured by the Lamia a little bit,

jacob: then she ends up finding, you know, trying to go back to Sylvia Ghanoush and

jacob: finding out that she has died afterwards, which that's wild too.

jacob: And that's like another scene that's quite culturally insensitive,

jacob: but also has some really funny shit in it where she like goes into this woman's

jacob: funeral and the, the accidentally knocks the body off of the coffin and the

jacob: body starts vomiting into her.

jacob: it's just insane like that it's you almost

jacob: for a second like forgot what kind of movie this is you

jacob: know you have the daughter of the woman who's dead like

jacob: you know blaming her for death and like reading her for filth

jacob: and all of this going on and then all of a sudden you have this like looney tunes

jacob: ass like getting vomited on by a corpse but

jacob: it is also very uncomfortable that she's

jacob: uh yeah this woman is now straight up dead that's also a scene where you have

jacob: the daughter of sylvia going to say you used to be a fat girl didn't you which

jacob: is interesting because there's like a few moments in this where it implies she

jacob: has some relationship to like binge eating and things like that that's like

jacob: not super fleshed out but it is there i.

Evan: Don't really understand the need to have mentioned those things if you weren't

Evan: gonna do something with them and i don't know it just doesn't seem like the

Evan: movie to do something with that information.

ward: Yeah it kind of felt more and more in place

ward: there because like it's the daughter of the grandmother she knew this bank lady

ward: was going to be coming by anyways and she's dead now and it's like oh now you

ward: come to apologize i can totally see it in that moment because like it's not

ward: like she harps on it too much she was like oh you used to be fat huh i could

ward: tell like she just clocks her just to like make it hurt more.

jacob: You know what i.

ward: Mean but then like the lamia's

ward: bringing it up later then it's like okay it's weird it.

Lenore: Puts me in mind a little bit of um are you familiar with the book thinner one

Lenore: of stephen king's early ones i.

jacob: Believe that's one of what's his name.

Lenore: Oh yeah it was a richard bachman book yeah yeah yeah.

jacob: I believe that's an unrelated man named richard bachman actually.

Lenore: Yeah yeah no no no no relation just very similar vibe um no they are the same

Lenore: person um no yeah it's it's a it's a film again about about like you know,

Lenore: a film. Goodness. Well, it was a film eventually.

Lenore: But in the book, there's a very similar plot.

Lenore: There's this, you know, Roma curse. There's this guy who pisses off the wrong

Lenore: dude and who's cursed to basically just like constantly lose weight until he wastes away and dies.

Lenore: And it feels like a...

Lenore: The eating disorder plot point feels like a wink at that for all that it's just flavor, right?

Lenore: It doesn't really play into what happens to Christine, save for some untoward

Lenore: comments, some longing looks at bakeries.

Lenore: And yeah, it's not woven into her character enough to really warrant inclusion, I think.

Lenore: There's fan theories, of course, that she's hallucinating it because she still

Lenore: has some kind of eating disorder that's fucking with her.

Lenore: But you could never see that.

Lenore: You could never read that in the film just based on anything you see that happens.

Evan: I almost wondered, like, the daughter of the old lady kind of bringing it up,

Evan: also sort of creating some kind of, I don't know if it's a stereotype or just

Evan: some kind of thing that somehow she has passed along this, you know,

Evan: this ability to read people and understand them like, oh yeah,

Evan: like, oh, you know, she's her daughter.

Evan: So she has some kind of power. I don't know.

ward: I didn't get that at all. I just figured she's a mean girl and she could just

ward: clock that shit. I would have liked that better.

jacob: I would have liked that better. You know, if we hadn't had the references later,

jacob: I think if it was just like her, just, you know, being shitty to her,

jacob: then like, I could be like, okay, that, that, that's something.

Lenore: Yeah.

jacob: There's like later her like binge eating ice cream and says she's lactose intolerant.

jacob: I will say the fine folks on reddit.com say that actually the whole thing was

jacob: a hallucination because she was binge eating and then she was coming.

jacob: I hate when people try to figure it, like solve movies like that.

jacob: It's drives me absolutely up a wall. They were like, that's the secret to understanding.

jacob: It was a hallucination because she was like malnutrition. Like,

jacob: what are we talking about?

jacob: No, I think it's a theme in a movie that you see this sometimes,

jacob: especially with like older scripts that get made later. a lot of times there's

jacob: like kind of residence or sorry there's kind of residue,

jacob: of plot points that kind of linger from what was supposed to be a thing.

jacob: And then it kind of isn't, I can almost imagine an alternate version of the

jacob: movie where it is more about that.

jacob: Um, and maybe that's, maybe that was like an early idea and some of it just lingers. I don't know.

Lenore: All I know is that the old lady's daughter is definitely our,

Lenore: she can make me worse character of the set.

jacob: Lenore, Lenore had a crush on the daughter.

Evan: One thing I did like with sort of the, the sort of her being sort of haunted,

Evan: or kind of mess with by the Lamia is a bunch of the scenes in her house.

Evan: I just, those are like the kind of scenes that give me the vibes back to like

Evan: Evil Dead and sort of like the, just the cool, you know, spookiness and sort

Evan: of jump scares and it's something going to happen.

Evan: You know, she gets, you know, she's in her room and all these different things.

Evan: And I just, those are like the aspects of the movie that I think,

Evan: I don't know, that were very enjoyable. And somewhere in my notes,

Evan: I don't know what I was saying. Sometimes I write something down like I don't know what that was.

Evan: But I was when she was getting tormented, I wrote that it's just capitalism tormenting her.

Evan: And in a way, it kind of is, though, because of the her being forced,

Evan: you know, quote unquote, forced to compete for this job, as you were saying,

Evan: Jacob, of like, oh, I got to make 50K and be a manager or, you know,

Evan: societal look down upon me if I don't get to that point.

Evan: So she's like being tormented by just like sort of societal pressure, but also this demon.

jacob: I mean some of the most uncomfortable scenes aren't just

jacob: like her in her house getting tortured it's like she's trying to

jacob: go to work and it's giving her like a horrible nosebleed or

jacob: like there's a fly in her stomach or like she's trying to

jacob: go to like dinner with her boyfriend's parents who like hate her for not being

jacob: rich she's trying to win them over she's doing it little by little and the demon

jacob: like makes her like scream something or like makes their makes the fly come

jacob: out of her mouth so everyone sees like like she's got bugs crawling Out of her it makes her like

jacob: freak the fuck out and embarrass herself like it is

jacob: uh you're right the societal pressures are like

jacob: the most uncomfortable parts because like when she's by herself in the house

jacob: it's scary but when she's around other people it's scary and also like it is

jacob: her you know you can tell she feels like two inches tall she feels absolutely

jacob: um humiliated in like a really horrible way and it is harder to watch that than

jacob: just like a base horror in.

Lenore: Particular like she's constantly gaslit about what she saw and experienced, right?

Lenore: Like when the first time the demon attacks her in her home and her boyfriend,

Lenore: what does her boyfriend say?

Lenore: It was just like the wind that blew something over or something?

jacob: Yeah, must have been the wind, said it was a trauma reaction.

jacob: I mean, a trauma reaction to getting attacked earlier in the day is a fair guess

jacob: the first time it happens.

jacob: But still, she's being told she's not experiencing what she's experiencing.

Evan: Yeah, there was something else he said that was also condescending in that same

Evan: conversation. I forget what it was.

Evan: Like, there's nobody there, you know, like, it couldn't have been.

Evan: Did you see someone? She's like, I can't see. It's like, oh,

Evan: then it was, you know, just the wind.

Evan: Or like, uh. Maybe she just says, you're re-experiencing trauma or something like that.

jacob: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: I don't think she has enough to do in the movie.

Lenore: Like, early on, as relates to that specifically, of course, she's the protagonist.

Lenore: but like early on um there's a bit

Lenore: where she fixes the printer um when

Lenore: her uh when she visits her boyfriend in his office um you

Lenore: know he's he can't figure out and she you know intuits right away that there's

Lenore: something stuck in it there's not enough for her to um there's not enough for

Lenore: her to flex that like savvy um like there's that bit in the in the uh shed where

Lenore: she lucks into like dropping the anvil on the demon and whatnot but luck that's pure skill i.

ward: Was gonna say did Did you see her in the car? She was kicking some ass in that car.

Lenore: Yeah, she's good with an improvised office weapon, certainly.

Lenore: But yeah, I think there's a little bit...

Lenore: I would have been much more intrigued if she was at war with herself, right?

Lenore: Because she has that resourceful nature. And I think being pulled between that

Lenore: and the short term sacrifices of like, you know, killing her cat for a blood sacrifice.

Lenore: I think being pulled between self actualization and like fitting into this paradigm

Lenore: would have made her her resistance a little bit more a little bit more compelling.

ward: I agree i really like that especially since like she grew up on a farm and like

ward: she's being denigrated for being grown up on a farm where like she obviously

ward: has information and knowledge from that experience and yeah no that could definitely

ward: flesh out her story a lot more.

jacob: Alternate ending where she just kills alamia with a shotgun so sick turns out that's all it took yeah.

Evan: Like the the like the farm thing also just

Evan: feels like another reason to to degrade her

Evan: you know along with the eating disorder i don't know maybe

Evan: in some weird way like they could be related somehow because of her a trauma

Evan: from what happened on the farm i don't know like they don't really give you

Evan: any of that which i get it maybe not the you know the deepest film that raimi

Evan: is going for but maybe like a smarter if a24 made it they would have fit some

Evan: other you know something else imagine.

Lenore: Like her being attacked by goats at like a very young age.

Evan: And then what's the.

Lenore: Climax of the film like they have to put the demon in a goat like.

jacob: I think a lot of that with the farm and

jacob: with the eating disorder and all that is really just trying to stress that

jacob: she feels inferior she feels like

jacob: a fish out of water i mean we see her for the first time listening to these

jacob: tapes telling her like you're great you can be you know the the you know grind

jacob: grind set trillionaire whatever people listen to on their way to office jobs

jacob: um and so i think that's kind of i think that's kind of a...

jacob: a core part of it too even if it doesn't always land i think the

jacob: idea is like why would this like fundamentally seemingly decent

jacob: woman make like such a bad decision why is why is she here at this point in

jacob: life why is she trying to get approval from these like rich people both at you

jacob: know socially and and at work it is because she feels like oh i don't belong

jacob: i have to prove myself um which you know often those strivers are like the worst

jacob: enforcers of like the system the.

Evan: Scene at the parents house was for me like probably the most

Evan: uncomfortable moment in

Evan: the entire film like and and also you mentioned i think you

Evan: said the thing with like her you know the desserts or whatever she brings

Evan: like this nice cake to the to the

Evan: you know for the dessert for the thing so she clearly has

Evan: this her mind on you know just because she cooked a

Evan: cake doesn't mean people can cook cakes they don't have to have eating disorders

Evan: but somehow like i don't know to me that like they're trying to i don't know

Evan: thread something there but that entire scene was just extremely you know that

Evan: the people's like grandparents who like the parents grandparents probably had

Evan: slaves like they definitely did.

jacob: Yeah no trying to

jacob: like guess these people's jobs uh it's horrifying yeah

jacob: like their dad is the lockheed martin exec who knows but like there's definitely

jacob: some real and it is also just really like tough to watch in the dinner scene

jacob: where she's like slowly winning them over and then the lamia makes her absolutely

jacob: humiliate herself is brutal i mean oh my god it is like pit of the stomach do.

Lenore: You recall what ultimately does win the mom over at least briefly.

jacob: Her saying that um that her mother was

jacob: an alcoholic yes the mom was like i appreciate that honesty whatever but uh

jacob: that it doesn't last but you see these moments where she's like see i should

jacob: be able to make it i should be able to connect like she has these she has the

jacob: potentiality to succeed socially and financially and interpersonally um they'll like.

Lenore: Me if i throw if i throw my own mother.

jacob: Under the.

Lenore: Bus you know if i if i you know shit on this woman's on this other woman's.

jacob: Reputation.

Evan: Yeah, that's, I forgot that that's what linked the two of them, and yeah,

Evan: that's, I mean, that also then is giving you more sort of trauma that Christine

Evan: has experienced in her life, which,

Evan: again, is like trying to tug you to think, oh, like, we should feel bad for

Evan: her because of all those things that have happened to her in her life.

Evan: But at the same time, she's also does shitty things, you know,

Evan: just because of the things that happened to her doesn't mean she has to deny people.

Evan: She could also have a, you know, a different job where she doesn't deny people their homes and shit.

ward: I mean, she could just also not deny people their homes at her current job.

Evan: I mean, presumably they wouldn't keep her around if she's not,

Evan: you know, cruel and making the bank money.

Lenore: Mm-hmm yeah there's that there's that constant um

Lenore: there's the constant tying of her of her worth and

Lenore: her you know career her livelihood um to you

Lenore: know to depriving to stripping people of their homes to

Lenore: um you know talking about her mother's alcoholism

Lenore: you know and putting people down that way like there's a running

Lenore: bit of her hair being torn out now that i think

Lenore: about it like as if she's in peril of she's constantly in peril of being stripped

Lenore: of her femininity um and she gets that both like in in a mundane sense and also

Lenore: like from the super from from the supernatural sources um that that to me is

Lenore: one of the one of the uh strongest through lines yeah.

Evan: The the demon or not the demon i guess at this point it's just like the the

Evan: woman grabs her hair in the car in the early scene and then there's a few others yeah and.

ward: Then twice more after she's already dead at least.

Evan: So yeah,

Evan: I'm trying to go to the third one.

ward: Yeah, because at the funeral.

Evan: The funeral. And then is it in the final scene when they're trying to summon the demon?

ward: No, it's when she dades up Mrs. Ghanush's body and tries to give her back the button.

Evan: Oh, yes.

ward: Because that would totally work. That makes sense.

Lenore: She really goes the extra mile, doesn't she?

ward: She goes so far for that one. And it's like, you didn't think that maybe it

ward: just, you know, she's not alive. it won't register that you're giving it to her.

Lenore: Just like stick it on their gravestone.

Evan: Like, well, one thing that maybe this isn't worth mentioning before that,

Evan: but when she goes back to the Leap's Row, the sort of the, the,

Evan: the, what would you call it? He's like a truth teller, fortune teller.

Evan: He, Justin Long,

Evan: basically gives her ten thousand dollars after she's like gone and try and you

Evan: know sold all of her stuff at a you know pawn shop to try and scrape together the money so that she.

jacob: Can try to sacrifice her cat like just does.

Evan: Everything and then justin long just like yeah here's 10 grand that i just you

Evan: know got from like my yeah from.

jacob: His pocket his couch cushions yeah which.

Evan: Was interesting and uh i don't know it it just like plays again that he's sort

Evan: of this very wealthy person and she's trying to sort of become that person but

Evan: i don't think being the you know assistant bank bank manager is gonna it's not gonna get her there.

jacob: And then that leads into the like the raw scene in

jacob: the entire movie for me like the part that like with the

jacob: whole like they're trying to summon the lamia to kill it i love

jacob: this entire sequence fantastic it's so

jacob: much fun where they where they've got the woman from the beginning who

jacob: her whole life she's like been training to destroy the lamia like

jacob: because she saw that like horrible thing at the opening scene of

jacob: the movie and she's got this like little like little assistant

jacob: guy that like follows her around i don't remember what

jacob: his name is but he's like he's like kind of

jacob: maybe i just think he's attractive but i was reading this queer coded maybe

jacob: that's wishful thinking on my part but she's got her little gay assistant that's

jacob: helping helping out i love him um and plus rom is there and they're all going

jacob: to do like a ritual to put the lamy in a goat and cut his head off it's fucking crazy i love it.

Evan: I also want to say the room that they go into to do the seance is absolutely

Evan: enormous like because that was in the back of this house that from the.

jacob: Front suburb just in this random town yeah they're like oh.

Evan: Yeah this unassuming little house and it's just like this this giant room that

Evan: could you know entertain uh you know 500 guests in the back but it's.

jacob: Listen american in houses before the mortgage crisis in 2008,

jacob: you know, you can't knock it. There was a lot of, a lot of square footage.

Evan: Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, it's like the room is, is,

Evan: is like, is awesome for the, the scene and, uh.

jacob: It was sick.

Evan: Yeah, as far as like that scene didn't feel like it leaned to being sort of offensive.

Evan: I don't know, like the previous mention of the woman being Romani,

Evan: I don't think it's kind of like goes away.

Evan: They kind of like push that away, you know, in a way. And now you can kind of just do the sacrifice.

Evan: And I mean, you know that when they're trying to get it into the goat that it's

Evan: not going to work. But the way they set it up is great.

jacob: There's a lot of fun stuff, yeah, with Lamia going to the wrong body,

jacob: going to the body of the assistant, and him getting twisted and all messed up.

jacob: They're trying to put in the goat, and the goat starts talking at her,

jacob: and it vomits up the cat and says, I don't want your cat.

jacob: It's like the cat's corpse is on the ground.

jacob: It's crazy, the other ghosts kind of swirling around.

jacob: And, you know, eventually the woman who's running the whole thing,

jacob: running the seance, is able to expel the Lamia.

jacob: But it's in, you know, we briefly think, oh, it's over. And it's like,

jacob: nah, you know, like she expelled the Lamia so they didn't kill the four of us in this room.

jacob: It's not enough. And I think the old woman even dies that's conducting the seance.

jacob: I'm pretty sure she dies from that.

ward: Yeah, I think so.

Lenore: Yeah, rip.

jacob: Which led to me and Lenore having an extended bit about a show that is about

jacob: Rom, the assistant guy, who will be canonically gay in this because I'm writing it.

jacob: We're going to have Stu because Stu has gotten fired from his job.

jacob: The three of them are doing ghost hunting adventures. That's my miniseries pitch.

jacob: uh ramey give me a hundred million dollars i'll make it.

Lenore: Yeah the you know these are the wheels that start turning when there's

Lenore: um you know when when the narrative is not tight enough right

Lenore: because again the ritual goes wrong you know the the the the the um the ritual

Lenore: goes wrong the uh the medium's uh life's work has essentially come to naught

Lenore: um really for no other reason we are led to believe than just,

Lenore: oh, the Lamia was just too cool.

jacob: Well, they also missed trying to cut the goat's head off. They jacked it up.

Lenore: That's true. But not for... I mean, it's an unfortunate error and I kind of

Lenore: wish it had been set up again, like maybe some childhood trauma on the farm, right? Like...

Lenore: That would tie it all together just a little more satisfyingly.

ward: Yeah, it's like up to Christine to kill the Lamia goat instead of the assistant.

ward: And then she hesitates because she had to kill so many goats on the farm or something.

ward: Just tie it in a little bit more. Make that backstory a little bit more worth it.

Lenore: Her drunkard mother just hands her a machete and tells her to go.

jacob: To kill your pet goat or something like that.

ward: Yeah. So she hesitates, lobby bus free, and then it goes into that scene.

jacob: Because we all know that assistant would not have missed in real life.

jacob: That guy's clearly an expert. He's clearly an official.

jacob: He's been practicing with his machete skills. And I will not have him slandered

jacob: when I make my TV show with him.

jacob: He's not going to miss a single machete chop. Just saying.

ward: Now there's a whole episode where they go back to the scene is like,

ward: see, there's an oil puddle right here. I slipped while I was swinging.

jacob: I had my eyes closed uh my controller wasn't plugged in i got stick tripped.

Evan: Why didn't the why didn't uh um

Evan: ram joss the delete rouse character know

Evan: or tell her before they she spent the

Evan: 10 grand to try and do this that she could theoretically give away this button

Evan: to someone else and pass along the curse is sort of I mean I understand thematically

Evan: in the movie it makes sense but did he not know this or like this is sort of

Evan: like your last option before you know it's too late kind of thing I.

jacob: Read it I read it like Rom is doesn't want anyone to go to hell,

jacob: that's my yeah because somebody's because it's like hell is crazy you know what

jacob: i mean like even stew it's like you're gonna send him to hell forever because

jacob: he was like shitty at work you know what i mean like he sucks but does he suck

jacob: that bad you know what i mean especially.

ward: Now that you know for a fact hell is real.

jacob: Yes hell is real and you will go there forever even if you were like a little

jacob: kid who gets cursed for stealing and so like i don't know i think rom might

jacob: just be like a type of guy who doesn't want to see anyone burn eternally that's

jacob: that's the best i can say yeah.

ward: Well in that scene he's like he's like i didn't want to tell you before because

ward: like if you do choose to do this you're willingly choosing to send somebody

ward: to hell and i'm a passive participant because i told you that you can do this that this is an option.

jacob: Feels like you go to hell for sending someone to hell like maybe when you die

jacob: i feel like you might be fucked i mean i don't know the rules of hell and heaven

jacob: in this universe uh again flesh it out in the sub-series,

jacob: but I'm pretty sure, you know, that's a big moral karmic debt right there.

Lenore: It's a really weird approach to, you know, God versus Satan and,

Lenore: like, who gets what soul and how and why, because, like, it's,

Lenore: you know, like you said, it doesn't seem to matter how you lived your life,

Lenore: you know, if you've even had a life to live in the case of the kid,

Lenore: you can, you know, make one wrong move, piss the wrong person off,

Lenore: and then they can just consign you to eternal torment.

jacob: I mean i will say

jacob: the the down in where we live

jacob: me and lenore in atlanta in georgia we have a much more uh

jacob: cogent theory of how people's souls get taken

jacob: um which is uh summed up in a great song called devil went down to georgia which

jacob: i assume is part of this lore as well um no but but i i do think that the whole

jacob: thing with the button and the coin was probably written before and they were

jacob: like oh wouldn't that be raw if she thought she was she thought she was out and I think that

jacob: was come up with, and then they made the justification for the whole situation. That's my guess.

Evan: Yeah, that makes sense. And it's kind of like a throwaway earlier where Christine

Evan: gives this sort of rare coin because Clay Dalton, Justin Long, collects coins.

Evan: She has this, you know, rare coin she got at the bank, puts it into a little

Evan: white envelope, which is the same unfortunate standard white envelope that her

Evan: little button that's cursed goes into.

Evan: too and then she sort of again she's

Evan: now comes up with another like moral quandary like

Evan: who can she give this button to and so she's going to give it to stew from the

Evan: bank you know for stealing the file and like trying to fuck her over from her

Evan: job and then she's thinking about giving it to other people and she again is

Evan: also eating a bunch of ice cream at the at the diner too she gets like multiple

Evan: gigantic chocolate sundaes which yeah.

jacob: There's a bit where she's like give me another it's an ice.

Evan: Cream you know.

Lenore: Now that you mention it Ward I think it was you who was talking about the um,

Lenore: the, um, the grave digging thing at the end, right?

Lenore: Where she, like, she digs her way into the grave, like, sticks the envelope

Lenore: in Sylvia Ghanoush's mouth. Real, real extravagant stuff.

Lenore: And, yeah, it's silly, but on the other hand, while we're talking about,

Lenore: like, well, her only way out of it is to continue to consign somebody to,

Lenore: like, torment and whatnot, I do love the imagery of her pulling herself out

Lenore: of somebody else's grave, right?

Lenore: Somebody, she's had a role and pudding in the ground and you know she's you

Lenore: know what's her race on detra at this point pulling herself out of this out

Lenore: of this hole she's dug for somebody else yeah.

jacob: And barely also has some of yes barely it

jacob: also has some on the head the stone cross

jacob: i don't know why a romani woman would have a stone cross over

jacob: her grave but i don't think that they gave it much thought clearly clearly

jacob: she has like you know her own like religious beliefs but

jacob: this uh i find it the seed

jacob: to be also really like where the where the

jacob: grave starts flooding and she's like up she swims up

jacob: to the surface and then sylvia ganousha's body starts

jacob: floating next to her and the mouth is like open oh

jacob: my god uh once again just uh just

jacob: it's a lot of fun but it's also just like what are we doing here but this is

jacob: one of those scenes where i was like the few minutes leading up to it i was

jacob: like okay we've got a whole scene with the diner and stew ice cream whatever

jacob: and then i'm like fully back and on board for scenes like this like this is

jacob: why i'm watching the movie let's be real yeah.

Evan: That that scene is super over the top but also pretty awesome and it's also

Evan: very stressful generally for me for like people like drowning is sort of like a.

jacob: Oh god is.

Evan: A very stressful thing and so you know she's drowning in the like the rainwater

Evan: in this grave is just very deeply uncomfortable and then she's you know then

Evan: she she she succeeds in what she thinks is you know,

Evan: Just before this, we didn't know is that she had like fumbled the envelope in

Evan: the car with, you know, with Dalton, that's his last name, Clay, Clay Dalton.

Evan: And so she has inadvertently put the coin into the mouth.

Evan: And so when she, you know, goes to meet him to go like, I guess,

Evan: upstate for the weekend or like go on a little trip or something that they had

Evan: been planning, turns out that the button was not given away.

Evan: And then it has sort of this awesome scene at the train, like the train station,

Evan: the ground opens up and she tries to reach for her and in the dramatic way.

Evan: And, you know, she goes to hell and it just, I like the, also just like the

Evan: hard cut right at the end of that too.

jacob: I think it's also interesting because like she gets a call from her boss.

jacob: That's like, Hey, Stu quit.

jacob: And he's, uh, and he's fired. You get the promotion. Like everything's coming

jacob: together. She buys a nice coat for herself,

jacob: which by the way, she forces an employee to open it. in the store early to give

jacob: for her. Just like an extra like little thing to make you not like her very much.

jacob: The thing at the end is a lot of fun. I gotta say though,

jacob: I think a stronger punch would have been, I mean, her boyfriend was holding

jacob: the envelope. I think if he had gone to hell, that would have been a better ending.

jacob: I think that would have hit harder. That's what I expected when I was watching it. Because like, why?

jacob: I mean, not to over question the rules, but he was holding the envelope. Is it not his button?

jacob: Or I don't know. I think that there's something like it once again,

jacob: the pain being reflected onto someone else thematically makes the movie stronger.

jacob: At the end of the day, though, it is a fun scene.

jacob: we joked about what if like there was actually no curse

jacob: at all but she fell off and got hit you know that

jacob: turns out there was no lamia but she's dead anyway you

jacob: know we made some jokes about that but i would have loved yeah i would have

jacob: i feel like it would have stuck the landing perfectly if clay had been the one

jacob: to go to hell but it doesn't matter i guess yeah at the end of the day we get

jacob: the like hands dragging her down in the rubble and the title card drop and that's

jacob: really what it's all about yeah.

Evan: Justin long probably deserved it more.

jacob: His his family his family sins yeah well the thing is his dad is actually an

jacob: investor in hell so he probably would have been fine down there he owns a minority

jacob: share it's on the board yeah.

Evan: It's funny when i watched it the first time i remember saying thinking after

Evan: you know didn't she kind of give him the button in a way because they got them

Evan: he gave the coin she used the coin,

Evan: like by process of elimination is that now his button but you know yeah.

jacob: He's physically holding it.

Lenore: At the end.

jacob: Even after she goes to hell he's holding it in his hand which is very strange.

Lenore: Yeah there's not really a a strong enough um grounding in time i think like

Lenore: she has three days okay is it like exactly 72 hours like to the second like

Lenore: noon noon noon you know there's not there's not enough lingering shots on clocks

Lenore: and stuff i think um to really build that tension you know.

Evan: And they could have done that at a train station because there's lots of clocks it

Evan: could have easily zoomed in on one and she's like running works and

Evan: you know running to make the train yeah i would i would have just assumed because

Evan: it's kind of implied i guess that the scene with her at the very beginning of

Evan: the movie you know coming in to try and get the extension is in the morning

Evan: and they're catching a train in the more i don't know very loose they're loose

Evan: on the on the rules for the most part but they could.

ward: Have did a whole thing with clocks like through the banks through like visiting

ward: the boyfriend professor at a school there's clocks the rich parents house with

ward: a grandfather clock it could have been a whole thing.

Evan: Yeah they definitely that house definitely had

Evan: a grandfather clock the the rich parents house i think they said they live in

Evan: santa barbara which is like an extremely wealthy fancy i driven through it one

Evan: time and it was very uh very nice and their house is huge they have multiple i don't know staff yeah.

Lenore: Butlers.

jacob: And stuff maids.

Lenore: Yeah it's i do feel like there

Lenore: is a little bit you know and of course like we're discussing like how to strengthen

Lenore: the theme of okay this is somebody who spent her life stepping on other people

Lenore: and now like in a uh more coherent movie perhaps the wrong person the person

Lenore: she doesn't want to be hurt is hurt ultimately,

Lenore: but it does feel, as the movie is,

Lenore: currently stands there is a little bit of mean-spiritedness in the in the last

Lenore: little bit of this i think specifically directed at specifically directed at

Lenore: christine you know the whole the whole uh the whole coat thing i.

Evan: Mean in in general like it doesn't treat her well like the.

Lenore: You know.

Evan: Ramey doesn't treat her well i mean i guess in a part like knowing that she's

Evan: going to be the one that gets dragged to hell it kind of makes sense but yeah

Evan: she's um she gets the raw a raw deal in some ways like.

Lenore: Again like going.

Evan: Back to the first question like do you feel sympathetic for you sort of do but then you also don't.

Lenore: Well in particular yeah and like i remember what i was

Lenore: arriving at now when she says to you know clay that yeah you know i take responsibility

Lenore: for my actions i could have extended that mortgage and i sure didn't it's like

Lenore: okay like that that that seems like a uh a neat little bow on something that

Lenore: we didn't exactly get early on you know i'm Because it's,

Lenore: I don't know, it felt a little bit nebulous for her to put so fine a point on it.

jacob: I like the scene where Sylvia said, I've realized the error of my ways and I'm

jacob: going to dedicate my life to revolutionary Marxism.

jacob: I thought that part was really cool. I liked that.

ward: Yeah.

Evan: Sometimes I ask, and I don't always say this at the end, but maybe it's obvious.

Evan: But would you recommend this movie to someone? Like, say, hey,

Evan: like, you know, like a kind of a fun, silly horror comedy with some gore and

Evan: curses and demons. Like, would you would you tell someone to watch it?

jacob: I would. I think I have, in fact, at times.

jacob: It's it's like I have. Yeah.

jacob: I think the scene where the anvil gets dropped on the woman's head,

jacob: I've shown people that scene probably like conservatively, like 20 times in my life.

jacob: Just like, Hey, check this out and showed them on my phone. Like,

jacob: isn't that, isn't that wild?

jacob: Um, so that type of thing, like if I know someone like goes for that type of

jacob: thing, scenes like that or getting vomited on at the funeral or like trying to drown,

jacob: like things like that on a thematic level, if someone was like,

jacob: I want to watch like a deep movie, that's like really good about like, you know,

jacob: trauma or what I'm like, i'm not going to recommend like this movie but like

jacob: if i know somebody likes like borderlines like looney tunes horror it is it is,

jacob: uh absolutely on the list.

Lenore: Yeah this is a movie that belongs um ramping up to it of course but this is

Lenore: a movie that belongs in a movie night with something like dead alive right you

Lenore: know something that's slapstick and like unabashedly quite gross.

Evan: That you literally took i literally was gonna say like if you like that movie

Evan: you would like this movie or probably vice versa if you then like this one to

Evan: go back to uh peter jackson sort of i don't think it's his first film but one

Evan: of his very first films for people who don't know,

Evan: it's like a total gore fest,

Evan: you know, before, before Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson made a movie that

Evan: had like absolute buckets of blood in it.

jacob: So you mean brain dead, which one are we talking?

Lenore: Brain dead was the, was the New Zealand title. Dead alive is.

Evan: Yeah. It's the same movie.

jacob: Dead alive. Got it. Oh, I see. I see.

Evan: Yes. Some people. Yeah. It's, it's weird. But if you look at it up on,

Evan: I think when you go to Wikipedia, it says brain dead, but then it says like also dead alive i'm.

jacob: Not sure i i loved it though i haven't seen that in years i need to re-watch that.

Evan: Yeah that's a that's a good one and i would you know

Evan: for me as well i don't often recommend this movie

Evan: but it does every once in a while come up i see someone posting like oh yeah

Evan: i just re-watched this where i saw this and usually it's 90 of the people are

Evan: like yeah that movie yeah you know it's been so long it's a good one and you

Evan: know it's definitely i'm glad that i got to uh revisit it had been god 15 years

Evan: 10 years 12 i don't know a long time since i had seen it.

Evan: So I also would give it a, tell anyone to watch it who likes it.

Evan: horror movies and it's it's not like a scary horror movie where i feel like

Evan: if you're not into the really you know really gross really scary really you

Evan: know uh kind of films like this one could kind of scratch an itch that's not

Evan: too too horrible it's certainly.

jacob: She gets attacked by a handkerchief on occasions you know like it's very very.

Lenore: Funny it's very.

ward: Funny when the handkerchief whimpers when he.

jacob: Gets killed.

Evan: Oh, the windshield? Right? Or does she step on it?

jacob: It goes in her car through the ventilation.

ward: She tries to jump down her throat.

Evan: Oh, and she pulls it out like a clown would pull out like a magician.

jacob: She rips it and it makes a sad little sound.

ward: It's like whimpers like a hurt dog or something.

Lenore: I think the funniest bit is where she's

Lenore: looking around the diner for people to like consigned to hell and she sees that

Lenore: old man um not really clear about that because like old or young like you're

Lenore: going to hell forever anyway um and she's thinking about it and then like the

Lenore: the the old man's wife comes back with like a piece of pie or whatever and it's like oh it's.

jacob: Good that old man had a wife if not it was he was done he was cooked.

Evan: I i also like when the when she like the blood starts

Evan: to spurting out of her nose on her boss and like the in

Evan: the office that's just you know it's one of those things like yeah you get

Evan: a bloody nose at work but this is just it's just squirting

Evan: everywhere and she's like holding her hands on it and

Evan: i think that later too when she see when she

Evan: has blood on her shirt and her boyfriend asked

Evan: like just once like hey like what's that blood and i think it was the cat it's

Evan: like oh no nothing like i don't know or you know she kind of brushes it off

Evan: tomato juice yeah the cat thing kind of you know i'm not a big fan of you know

Evan: films with animal cruelty and uh that uh you know just as a warning for anyone

Evan: there is a there is that for it which we already discussed,

Evan: I don't know. R.I.P.

jacob: That cat.

Evan: What was that? Oh.

jacob: R.I.P. that cat.

Evan: Yeah, that poor little cat.

Lenore: Did it even get a name?

jacob: She says here kitty kitty when she's trying to find it. So maybe that's,

jacob: maybe, you know, maybe she just called her kitty kitty.

jacob: Maybe she's not original. She is like a bank manager.

Lenore: True. True, true, true.

jacob: Or trying to be.

Lenore: Sorry to our bank managers in the audience.

Evan: Yeah. She didn't seem terribly attached to the cat either too,

Evan: right? She's like, yeah, you know, no big deal. I'll just,

Evan: she's burying it in the yard when Justin Long comes home he's like yeah let me quickly bury this.

Lenore: If I had if I was like under a hell curse or something and I had the opportunity

Lenore: to sacrifice my cat I would just be like no I'm going to hell.

Evan: Yeah I couldn't I don't have a cat but I have a dog I couldn't do it.

Lenore: I feel like if you're murdering your pet to avoid going to hell that's a hell offense no.

ward: I can go i can easily or at least not easily but i can try to go find like an evil ceo billionaire.

jacob: You know they.

ward: Could be like hey take this button.

jacob: Yes i i mean that's also you know if we want to you know sylvia ganoush had

jacob: this power the whole time there's like a lot of people that like cause the subprime

jacob: mortgage crisis that you know the guillac government wasn't going to do anything

jacob: about it but who's going to trace back you give them a button and then this appearing you.

Lenore: The timeline where like they're like ceo assassinations as in our world and

Lenore: whatnot but instead it's people just like handing them buttons and sending them to hell.

ward: But see, that's not in line with Miss Ganesha's character. She is a petty queen

ward: who got stolen from, you know, a little necklace stolen from by a little kid.

ward: Probably his first mistake ever in his life. She didn't even care about the necklace.

ward: She gave it back to him to give him a curse.

Lenore: That's how petty she is. Was it her that cursed the kid with the Lamia?

jacob: It's hard to know.

ward: I'm fully assuming. Yeah, I'm fully assuming I like it because then it's like,

ward: it plays in line more with her character.

ward: It's like, oh, you denied me my loan, even though quite literally that dude

ward: is bank manager with the office and everything. Like...

Evan: It says in the Wikipedia, I don't remember this exactly, it says it's from a

Evan: Romani woman's, you know, wagon.

Evan: So you just assume that either it's not her, it could be like the mother or

Evan: like someone in her family.

Evan: I mean, seems like they're trying to tie them in some way.

jacob: I like to imagine Ms. Ganesh did that in her youth. And she's like,

jacob: I'm reformed. I'm past sending people to hell.

jacob: I used to send people to hell for cutting me off in traffic.

jacob: I'm not going to do it anymore.

jacob: And then I'm sorry, Sylvia is just the wrong person to mess with.

jacob: She was like, okay, one last hell curse and RIP.

ward: See, I got to disagree. I imagine it as she is petty her whole life.

ward: She's so powerful. She can send people to hell, but she ain't got her finances in order.

ward: Like even a little bit with all that magic. She's been just fucking over anybody

ward: who's slighted her any type of way. That's all she's been doing all those years.

jacob: Yeah, it's funny if that's your only magic. You have no magic except the hell

jacob: curse. It's like, man, this is limited in utility.

Evan: You could have used it on people who deserved it. Like you said,

Evan: Justin Long's father, for instance, could have been cursed to hell.

jacob: Yes.

Lenore: You know what?

jacob: Home defense with an RPG.

Lenore: I think Justin Long's folks were the ones that got the make it rain demon.

jacob: It's very possible.

Evan: Yeah.

ward: We don't know how the magic works in that world completely.

jacob: Yeah, we'll have to find out in the miniseries. I'm telling you.

jacob: Sam Raimi, I know you're listening.

ward: I need the world building.

jacob: Give us the money.

Evan: We often i often do that when i'm like talking about some

Evan: director and i want to know some fact i'm like yeah you

Evan: know yeah if you're if you're listening you know you just come on and you

Evan: can defend yourself here so sam raimi if you are if you're

Evan: out there you can feel free to come on and tell us your uh we'll pitch you ideas

Evan: for the for the mini series you know this could be honestly like he's not doing

Evan: that many films now like he could do a sequel to this i mean what's i could

Evan: see there being a sequel to something like this it kind of just dropped it like

Evan: this could have been a franchise honestly drag.

jacob: You to hell i don't know,

jacob: drag weed drag they them to hell make it woke drag they them to hell that's

jacob: the it's the woke version yes yeah.

Evan: Sam ramey's gone gone woke on us but yeah.

jacob: Hell yeah we love it.

Evan: But uh jacob or any uh any final thoughts on uh on drag me to hell.

jacob: You know um i it's you know it's a lot of fun and it's interesting to see how

jacob: like just the cultural stuff of the moment um in this particular period was,

jacob: you know, influencing the art that was being made.

jacob: And, uh, you know, at the end of the day, very imperfect film, but it's, uh,

jacob: the reason I like to watch movies that are not just like great films that are

jacob: imperfect films is because there's so much, like, there's so many interesting

jacob: little details that when there's like love and care stuff put into it,

jacob: it can be an absolute blast.

jacob: And, uh, yeah, um, that's, that's my thoughts on it. I, I really,

jacob: I really dug it And I appreciate you having us on to talk about it.

Lenore: Yeah, very, very, very similar, similar sort of appeal to me.

Lenore: You know, when, when a movie is not one of those like A24, like elevated horror,

Lenore: quote unquote, I hate, I hate that term, but like, that's the only one coming to mind right now.

Lenore: When it's not one of those, right? The fun, part of the fun is in theory,

Lenore: crafting how you could make it one.

Lenore: Not that every movie has to be that way, but I love setting myself like that

Lenore: exercise, right? That sounds so pretentious, but that's what we do, right?

Lenore: We shoot the shit, and I don't know, that's where fanfiction comes from, right?

Lenore: You flex your narrative tools, and you're like, okay, what would I do?

jacob: I would prefer, I prefer to take elevated films and like, how can I make this

jacob: into like an Adam Sandler?

jacob: That's, that's my goal.

Evan: Well, I think it like also comes a lot of times from movies that have,

Evan: you know, less than perfect politics where like, if that part of it had been

Evan: improved, that like inherently I think would make the movie better.

Evan: You know, like that is what kind of elevates it. I also hate the elevated horror

Evan: term, but if Sam Raimi just had read some Mao or something and got really into

Evan: that kind of shit and made this movie,

Evan: the curse could have been on the banker or whatever. It could have gone a whole different way.

jacob: It's not well known that Mao did actually have the power to send people to hell.

jacob: That's the whole landlord situation.

Evan: Yeah, he sent 8 billion people to hell.

Lenore: I think. we're.

jacob: All there we're there right now.

ward: Man they could have like miss ganoush working her way up like the corporate chain.

Lenore: Like asking.

ward: For loans and every time she gets denied it's like a little mini spin off like

ward: this person dies and it's like okay coming back for my loan request.

Lenore: Just by.

jacob: The by the by the end of that show we're like oh miss ganoush actually was the worst like.

Lenore: Just a montage of people with like increasingly wide ties like dying increasingly bizarre deaths yeah.

jacob: It's everyone in your family she's coming for you.

Lenore: Sylvia begins.

jacob: It's just her on a farm it's just nothing.

Lenore: Oh my god if it's her on a farm and then like christine has to you know she

Lenore: also comes from similarly humble origins so like she has to she has to to to

Lenore: to out demon the demon yes.

Evan: Yeah.

jacob: So many opportunities.

Evan: Yeah. So again, Sam Raimi, you know, just, if you just want to like dump like

Evan: a gigantic bag of, you know, of, of money to make, make something,

Evan: you know, I don't think any of us will say no to, to making,

Evan: to making some, to making some movies, a short series,

Evan: you know, and you can do it like the, the,

Evan: what's that Netflix stranger things where you make, you know,

Evan: five seasons over the next 27 years or something like that.

jacob: You know that's right um by my one contractual obligation is you do have to

jacob: introduce me to the actor who played the assistant who like said nothing i do

jacob: want i do want to did they not say.

Evan: Anything i maybe i don't know they didn't.

jacob: He i don't think he said a lot uh i don't know i would like to be introduced to mr ramey thank you i.

Lenore: Think the daughter should have been in the movie more i think she should.

jacob: I i think she should have been.

Lenore: On the on the like train platform just watching christine and and you know taking

Lenore: a dragon her cigarette and being like hell yeah.

jacob: Hell yeah would be a great final line or like.

ward: Eat that hell yeah hard cut boom.

jacob: Yeah awesome oh fun stuff yeah.

Evan: Well jacob lenore uh thank you both for uh coming on and uh everyone can listen

Evan: to to your podcast social shelf or wherever podcasts uh whatever fine podcasts are sold.

jacob: Wherever pods are casted yes um come check it out and we'll do this about books

jacob: and you can pretend like you uh pretend like you read it is what i've been told

jacob: by multiple emails which is not the mission of the show but whatever.

Lenore: Listen, once we really get into the rhythm of announcing our next book at the

Lenore: end of the episode, like we kept saying we would, y'all will have no excuse.

Lenore: Y'all will have no excuse. We will assign the reading. You will read the reading.

jacob: Yes.

Evan: Yeah, sometimes when I've gone on another podcast and they're like,

Evan: oh, what episodes do you have coming up or what's coming out?

Evan: it's like a you know like i kind of know like a few but then you

Evan: sort of you know you don't know what some someone will

Evan: pick or what you're gonna do and i don't know like the mystery i guess although

Evan: a book i have to say is like a longer bigger commitment than you know a two-hour

Evan: movie so i can i can appreciate that but yeah even listening to uh left projector

Evan: and ward yeah and i will catch you next time.