Joy and anticipation turn to heartbreak and confusion as a couple's journey to parenthood takes a sudden and unexpected turn. How they each navigate this profound challenge not only tests their faith but reshapes their future in ways neither could have anticipated. What did they discover at the bottom of the pit, and how did it lead to hope for thousands of others?

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

• After battling infertility, Charlotte's pregnancy brings joy and excitement. The anticipation builds as the couple prepares for parenthood, but a sudden twist changes everything.
• The couple's spiritual journey takes center stage as unexpected challenges test their faith. While Charlotte seeks solace and guidance, her husband grapples with anger and doubt.
• Faced with profound grief, Charlotte finds unexpected ways to heal. Her spiritual journey leads her to new insights and a profound connection with her beliefs.
• Charlotte's personal experiences lead her to create something meaningful for others facing similar struggles. A new charity is born, reflecting her desire to support and uplift.
• The couple's differing responses to their trials create tension and complexity in their relationship. As they navigate these changes, their paths take unexpected turns, leaving questions about what lies ahead.

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And now let's meet your host and our special guest for today.

so welcome to what's the story?

My name is Matt Edmundson.

Beside me is a beautiful and amazing Charlotte Nall.

Charlotte, welcome to what's the story now?

It says here in your bio, you're married to Gavin.

You have two kids you are the head of Little Fingers Charity which is

a charity for bereaved parents, You are, and I love this, the online

location lead for your local church.

We will just call that a church pastor.

But, we don't mention the word pastor.

Uh, and you work at Christian...

Vision and it's fair to say we've known each other for a couple years

now because of the online church space And so I'm super excited

to get into this conversation.

Welcome to the podcast.

Great to have you.

How are you doing today?

I'm great.

All the better for being here with you, of course.

I'm having so much.

I'm finally here in person, which is

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have talked about this for a long time It's

great to have you and I like I like the smooth talking nature of it.

It's it's always nice to be flattered.

Um, but it's great to have you to the show.

It's great to have you on.

Now, um, so you are, I can tell by your accent, you're, uh, for those outside

of the UK, you actually have quite a specific regional accent, don't you?

Do you just want to tell the good ladies and gentlemen what, what,

whereabouts in the world you are?

I'm a Brummie, which means I'm from Birmingham.

But I actually live in Solihull.

So, uh, which is the posh part just outside of Birmingham.

So Birmingham Airport is actually in Solihull.

So there, yeah.

A little known fact, uh, for you.

So, you call it Solihull, I call it Solihull.

Yeah, it depends where you are from.

It says Brummie's gonna be posh.

obviously I'm not very posh, uh, you know.

And so you're a Brummie born and bred?

You been there your whole life?

Yeah, yeah, all my whole life.

Although my entire family now live in Australia.

So

No, seriously, just you left.

Are you going to go out or are you going to stay here?

No, we do lots of visits.

So, uh, yeah, as long as we can afford to, obviously, but

yeah, we do love it out there.

Yeah, no, fair enough.

Fair enough.

Well, um, so we know each other through Christian vision.

Just explain what Christian vision is for those that might not know

who are listening to the show.

So, we kind of, uh, we help, um, Christians to share their faith.

Uh, but we also, uh, so we do that by several different things where

we're trying to help churches to start those conversations with faith.

Um, and so what we call, it's called mobilizing the church.

Uh, and as, as well, we try and mobilize people to, uh, encourage them and

help them with skills to, to share their faith and talk about Jesus.

And how long have you been doing that?

Uh, so I've been here for three years, now.

Yeah.

you're enjoying it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's

great.

got to say that they're listening in, right?

Yeah, yeah, James will be watching this later.

Yeah, no, it's great.

It's one of those jobs where you just think, this, I used to be a teacher, and

I was a consultant, and then I went into working in events, and some really big

high flying jobs, and then came here, and I really felt called here by God,

and it's like, I really can see why God's called me to this space for such a time

as this, you know, it's lined up really well with the online location leader

role at church, as well as being here.

Um, and I started actually on the 1st of April, which is about the

second or third day of lockdown.

So it

was quite an uncomfortable start to, to a job, but I was thankful to have a job.

So, yeah.

and you guys do some great things, you produce some great resources, you

help churches and individuals and so, um, what's the, if people want to know

more listening to it, where do they go?

Let's just do a quick shameless plug before we get into the whole

thing, where do people go to?

And so they can check us out on the website that's a Christian vision website,

but on the Christian vision website We've got direct links to all of our products.

So we've got for example CV resources, which is an online

Tool kit of different videos and resources that churches can use.

We've got yes, he is which helps, uh, Christians to share their faith.

So that's also on social media platforms and YouTube.

We're kind of in every bit of online space to an extent.

Um, we've got CV training, so we do training for churches.

Uh, and then we've got Christian vision outreach as well, which helps us to,

uh, do online campaigns and reach non Christians through that as well.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

I remember, um, working with you guys and I, uh, we used to do this thing where

you, you guys did outreach and some of those emails would come through to me.

People connected and I never forget sort of early on, we had this one lady, she

contacted, um, she connected with us through one of your ads and, uh, sent a, a

WhatsApp message through, um, just saying, Oh, I'm just kind of curious about church.

Um, and I'm like, well, where, whereabouts do you live?

And I knew somebody in that neighborhood.

And so that day she'd met up with them.

They'd gone to their local church.

She'd loved it.

She'd sort of got involved and stuck in.

And so what you guys did is just amazing, really just connecting.

Uh, people and getting them connected with local church, uh, and the

Christian church, which was great, but we're not here to talk about CV, uh,

although it is a great organization.

Um, let's talk about you.

So Christian journey, let's start there.

Was this, is this a new thing for you?

Were you, did you come out of the womb a Christian?

I mean, what's your sort of your story there?

Yeah, no, I wasn't brought up in a Christian home.

Um, I think we had, well, we had Christian morals, like we'd go at

Christmas and my mum would talk about God very lightly and stuff.

But it wasn't till, um, I went to secondary school.

Uh, so all, we went to a primary school where there was a lot of Christians that

would come in, or they were actually Christians, I shouldn't put them in

vertical commas, and they'd teach lessons about the Bible and unpack it all.

To me, it was just really like, yeah, that's nice, kind of thing.

So I think that taught me some foundations about the Bible

and some of the basic stories.

And then when I went to secondary school, we started going to the local youth club.

But the youth club was run by Christians from the local church.

And they used to have a little bit of a caveat of that.

I mean, there were lovely people.

And it was a great place to hang out as teenagers, you know, a safe

place to keep us off the streets because we were a little bit rogue.

Um, and so.

You know, some of the things they would put on for us, for example, like football

clubs and stuff, like, I love football.

Um, and they brought in this guy who was a former pro footballer, and they were

like, right, he's going to teach you some football skills, but the catch is, at

the end, you have to listen to him for 15 minutes talking to you about Jesus.

So, like, we'd go, and we'd learn all the football skills, and then

we'd sit there afterwards, and you just kind of heckle him and stuff.

But I think without realizing it, a lot of that was seeping in.

Um,

yeah.

And then, um, the one summer they brought, um, a group of teenagers over from

America who was coming, who were coming over on, it was like a mission trip.

And they just built relationships with us through the couple

of weeks they were with us.

And then right at the very end, invited us to a, um, a night they were

putting on where they just did a full on church service evangelistic event.

Um, and most of my friends went for forward on that night to

say, yes, I want to know more.

However, uh, I had a curfew and my mom was very strict.

Uh, so I missed the old school bit cause I'd just gone home, but

my older brother did go forward.

Uh, but for me, it was just a few months later that, um, I really, um, started to

think, right, this is something for me.

Um, so I did, I became a Christian at 13, I would say, um, had a couple

of years, I was doing like alpha and all those kinds of things.

But then when I went to uni, I was a bit like, no, I want to go

down the drinking partying route.

Um, and I literally remember waking up in my bed one morning after my

third or fourth year at uni, just being like, I'm done with this.

Like I just feel empty.

And then I remembered how full and complete I'd felt as a

Christian and going to church.

And something just drew me back and then just slowly, you know, I came, started

going back to church and I wasn't ready, you know, in the, I'm perfect now, I'm

ready to be a Christian, it was just a, I'm going to go baggage and all.

And that started to, you know, as I started going back to church, all of

that started to get sorted as I dealt with issues I was pushing aside, I think.

So,

yeah.

Wow, so when you were at uni then, um, what did you study?

psychology and sociology.

Okay.

So these are interesting, um, interesting things to study in the wake of this

sort of personal awakening, aren't they?

The whole, uh, I mean, what did the psychology law graduate

make of, make of all of this?

Yeah, it's quite a crazy thing.

I mean, when you start unpacking it, but I actually think the more you look at

psychology, the more you can't, can't say there's not a creator because the

more you unpack it, the more you go, wow, we are absolutely incredibly designed.

Um, You know, I mean, I studied theology at A level as well, and it was, um, some

of these, you know, um, arguments for the existence of God, and it's one of them's

about, you know, if I walk upon a moor, and I find a watch, there's definitely

a watchmaker, so there must be a God.

And that's how they derive back down.

Some of them are a little bit crazy, but I think looking at psychology and

how we're made up as humans, you're like, everything points back to a God

who is love, and a God who created us.

You know, uniquely and knitted us together in our mother's womb.

And I think that's exciting to, to do that, uh, to explore that further.

Yeah, that sounds really fascinating.

I'd love to know how, how that all worked for you because, um, I,

it's, it's interesting, isn't it?

When you talk to a scientist, they'll talk to you, especially Christian

science, a Christian scientist is not Scientology, a scientist who's a

Christian you have to be careful how you word so many things these days.

Uh, but you talk to like a good friend of mine, Will, Um, he's been on crowd

church, he's, um, he's really passionate about science and for him, science just

point, everything points back to God.

Um, and you know, you, you kind of, I, I love what I do and you

have a passion for it, but you see God in, in all of that, don't you?

And so you with psychology, you see God in that for some people,

it might be music for some, it might be science, whatever it is.

Um, and you can, you can sort of see God in that whole thing.

And that's actually quite a wonderful place to be, isn't it really?

Yeah, yeah.

And it, and it reaffirms what you, I think because I was never encouraged by

my parents to go down the church route.

If anything, they actually, I remember the one day them telling us to get out because

they thought we were part of a cult.

Um, early teens, they were just like, what on earth is going on?

Um, but actually I think, All those sorts of things built a picture of, for

me, of this is really true, like I have made this decision myself and everything

points in this direction of truth.

Um, yeah.

yeah, super powerful, super powerful.

So you go back to church during your, I'm guessing your early 20s, you're

at university unless you do university really late as a mature student, but

I'm guessing you're in your early 20s, um, and you go back to church,

um, is this where you meet Gavin?

Yeah, well Gavin, I'd known before, because Gavin's younger than me, so

he was at the church anyway, um, so I'd met him briefly before university

and then obviously stopped going during university, so when I went

back he was still there, but because he was so much younger than me.

I just wasn't interested.

Um, so it took a bit of time, but we got there in the end.

He was pursuing me, but, uh, yeah, he's great.

Um, awesome guy.

And, um, it's been great watching him on his faith journey as well,

because, you know, he was brought up as a Christian, but the other

way around, actually had some time, then away from God a bit later on.

So that's been part of that.

15 years,

okay, how long have you been married now?

16 years in a couple of months.

So, yeah,

Very good.

Very good.

So let's talk about some of the challenges that you've gone through

then, um, in life that sort of God's been with you walk through with you.

And, um, I mean, I know some of them, I know part of your story.

Um, so you, you, you, you leave university, you get married.

I know that life is not all sunshine and rainbows from this point.

So, um, especially cause you've got a charity for bereaved parents, there's

obviously some kind of link there.

So what happened?

If I just rewind very, very quickly.

So literally as I leave university, I went to Soul Survivor, the festival,

and where kind of really for me about a year later, I volunteered

at it for the couple of weeks.

And at that, God gave me a picture of my husband, couldn't see his face, and

he had a daughter on his shoulders.

And he was, he held a son holding hands with him, walking towards me,

and he lifts the daughter down and they're both walking, all of them

are walking hand in hand towards me.

So it's important to remember that picture, because then when I go

into my journey, it makes you go.

all the way through I was like, uh, what?

Uh, but then it makes sense eventually.

So yeah, so then we get married and about a month after being married, I got

a phone call from, um, the doctor after I'd been having some ongoing issues.

And they said, um, Mrs.

Nall, we think you've got endometriosis, but quite severely to the point

that we don't think you're going to have children of your own.

Um, so for us, it was very much well.

I'd had this picture.

Gavin had also done a gap year at his, at church and had a prophecy that

he was going to have two children.

We get together, we've both got the same names we've been given for our children.

We're like, this is it.

We're definitely having kids.

Woohoo!

We found the right person.

So literally to get that a month after like we've got married, the

world just comes crashing down.

Um, so yeah, over the next months and years, we're kind of trying for a baby.

And that puts massive pressure on you as a young married couple to think

we've both got this dream, we want kids, but actually is it going to happen?

Are we going to have to pursue this?

Um, and so yeah, it was, it was difficult.

Um, but after five years we did get pregnant, which was really exciting.

Um, and the church were with us on that journey.

Eventually, and that was naturally as well.

We were just about to start the IVF journey.

Um, and so, yeah, so we were all excited, got everything ready, found out it

was a little boy, um, which was great.

Uh, very excited, knew we were going to court.

So our names would been given separately that when we got together, we've got

the same names were Noah and Grace.

Okay.

Because our whole church knew our journey, everyone was saying to me, Oh, this

is Noah, this is Noah, how exciting.

But something in me, which I now know is obviously the Holy Spirit,

kept saying, this isn't Noah, something feels a bit different.

And as my pregnancy was progressing and progressing, you know, I

was eight and a bit months.

Uh, everything was, you know, fine, no issues.

Um, and then I went for a routine scan and said to the, the midwife,

I've had a, uh, not a routine scan, sorry, a routine injection.

Um, and I said to the midwife, I've just had a bit of reduced movement lately,

but my midwife said yesterday, it's fine.

She said, oh no, we take that very seriously.

Um, and whisked me into a side room and unfortunately,

um, our son had passed away.

Um, so I'd got to go to the hospital to be prepared to

deliver and I'd do it naturally.

Um, and it was just all very confusing and you know, we've waited this long to

get pregnant and now this had happened.

Um, and so yeah, it was, it did feel like it was just that day where

our world just came crashing down.

Yeah.

No kidding.

No kidding.

I mean, well, I'm sorry to hear that.

Um, you know, that's just, I can't, I can't imagine what that was like.

Charlotte, I'm not gonna lie.

I can't be in that position because that's not what happened to, to me and Sharon.

It's not what happened to many couples.

But he, I guess, how did you then reconcile the, the picture, the

dream, the names, um, with that day?

Because that, That must have taken some time to get over, I would have thought.

Yeah, yeah, it did.

I mean, initially, I think you go into, I mean, grief is a funny thing anyway.

They talk about the waves of the different emotions and about

how they lap and everything, everything just feels different.

I think initially I went into this almost formality mode of right.

I've got to give birth in a couple of days.

Then we've got to plan a funeral.

So you just kind of keep your head above water.

Um, and so I think I went into that and I really found God in that and I can clearly

see fingerprints of exactly where God lined up stuff to make it easier for me.

So, for example, you had to have, so the hospital paid for the funeral of, uh, so

we called the little boy Micah, uh, about God's, uh, little prophet and who is there

like God, uh, it's about his uniqueness.

So, um, so yeah, so we had to have a, uh, a hospital chaplain do the funeral

where it turned out our senior pastor was actually one of the hospital chaplains.

We had to have their funeral, um, people who actually one of our

elders was the leader of that.

So, so all these little bits, you know, our, our church friends cooked

and cleaned for us for six weeks after the baby, uh, after we'd lost Micah.

Uh, our family paid for us to go to Australia for a month after the funeral.

So all those things kind of kept us going.

But I think it was then when we got back from Australia where

Gavin had gone back to work and the support wasn't there as much.

I mean, it was, but people just not around you as much.

It hit me, um, and I became quite unwell.

Um, and I did, and I think my, it was my anger and confusion towards

God was the thing that made me quite poorly for a bit of time.

Um, just as I was wrestling through those pictures and the why's and the,

it's, you just can't explain it and the hormones

Oh Oh geez, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so

it's all going on, isn't it really?

You've got the physical, the emotional, the spiritual, the mental, you've got

all of that happening at the same time.

And so you then become quite unwell, you say because of your

anger and your confusion, sort of, you know, in hindsight, this was

maybe what you can put it down to.

Um, and how's, how's, how's the husband at this point?

I think, yeah, it was difficult.

And this is the point where Gav said, that's it.

I'm done with my faith.

I'm done with God.

Um, cause he just couldn't get his head around it.

So again, that then pushes you, you know, into a place of like difficulty.

Cause it's like, have we got to get back into then trying mode for another baby?

And then we've also got this in between, like, I'm going to churches.

I'm wanting to deeper dive into God.

He's going, no.

You know, so it's all of that sort of stuff, and, and don't get me wrong,

like, Gav was there for me you know, hugged me if I was crying and stuff,

but the point where I really wanted to be like, can you pray for me?

He was just so angry with God, he was just like, no.

So you're just kind of on two different places.

Um, and I remember getting to the point at the Easter, so we'd lost Micah in

the October, and at the Easter, I was so unwell, and I was having that many

panic attacks and different things like that, I'd got really poorly.

Uh, that I remember Gav just literally having to scoop me up and he took

me to my mum's house and he just gave it to me, gave me to her at the

front door and he was just like, I just don't know what to do with her.

And I had to stay at my mum's for the next two weeks.

And I remember my mum literally all through the night, I'd be waking

up every half an hour cause I was just having such bad, bad anxiety.

She'd be stroking my hair to get me to sleep.

But you know, in that two weeks was when I would say I met God in the most.

Deep and profound way and we'll talk about falling to the bottom

of a pit and finding God there.

That is exactly where I found God.

Um, and I think that is the turning point for me of where I start

to heal and push forward and, and move forward through that.

I,

So what happened then, uh, in that time?

I literally just, I had nothing else 'cause I was so poorly, like I

didn't wanna watch telly, I hadn't got the attention, so, so I literally

just pulled out my Bible and worship music and just sat reading my Bible,

talking to God, telling him all my, my worries, my fears, my, my anger.

I think I just processed.

everything so much, uh, that I just got it all out.

I was writing stuff down.

But that is also when I began to write out the pages of the Little Fingers

book, because I knew that was part of my healing journey that one day I had to

have hope that one day I would get better.

And I was healed.

And I knew that the reason that I could do that was by helping others with my story.

And that That's the point where I started writing the book.

So just explain to those listening what the book is, um, that you

started writing at this point.

So we, um, when I'd gone into the hospital to give birth to Micah, um,

the only book or resource available to parents at the time that was like free

or anything was, was for Muslim parents.

So it was prayers to pray through when you'd lost a child and the midwife, um,

who'd come and again, a lady from church, she's the most wonderful lady and she's

supported me for many years said to me, Charlotte, I think this is something,

you know, where you could help others.

Like this is a real chance where you could bless others.

And.

So from there, the idea came together where I just write a thought a day.

So it's almost like a really small, you know, it's not a big

book or anything because you can't process that when you're in that.

It's literally just a thought a day where I'm just telling people about

my journey and about kind of, you know, some of the things they'll face.

Um, and we actually compiled that together.

Now it's the little fingers book and we send that out free of charge to

hospitals, chaplains, churches, um, so anyone can email in through the

website, um, and they're able to request them and we send boxes out and we've

literally sent thousands of them out free of charge to families and parents.

Yeah.

And so this is what your charity does.

The Little Fingers charity.

So what's the, I mean, while we're here, what is that website?

I knew you were going to ask me that.

I think it's Little Fingers.

I'm just checking it on the internet today.

I'll have to get back to you and you can put it on the bottom.

Littlefingers.

I'll do that.

We'll put it in the show notes.

org, but I'll double check.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, we'll put it in the show notes.

I love the fact you don't even know your own website.

Uh, and you,

in my brain.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brilliant.

Brilliant.

So here you are in this two weeks thing, you're pouring your heart out to God, you

start to heal, you're journaling, you're, uh, you start the Little Fingers book.

Those, what happened then at the end of those two weeks?

You said, did you then go back home, back to Gav?

Is that what happened then?

And how, what was his response to, to the fact that you were a little bit different

coming out than you were going in?

I think through the whole journey.

So Gav was away from God for about seven years in total.

Um, and so yeah, it was, I think everything, every step of my journey.

He didn't always comment on, but I knew was impacting him

to see how I was reacting it.

reacting to all of this journey through my faith.

And I think that modeled to him kind of God, um, inaction really.

But yeah, I went back to back home.

I went back to work and I had a phase return to work and

got lots of support there.

Um, and actually I would say by the June, July, I was probably fine, you

know, I was, I wasn't having the panic attacks or any of that anymore because

God was really just transforming me.

Um, it was just like I came out the other end as a completely other

person, like a completely new person.

Yeah.

So what was it then?

Because I, I can, I can imagine if you're listening to the show and

you, you're, you're listening to what the story is, um, it's easy to

go, I get why you're angry with God.

You have this promise, this happens.

And in theory, this is something that God can stop at any point in time, right?

He knew what was going to happen, but he, he, for whatever reason,

He allowed to happen what happened.

Um, and so here you are, you have your Christian faith and it feels like your

Christian God is not with you at this point, you know, and this is all going on.

You're angry with him.

Gavin's angry with him.

So, but if within a few months, God is transforming you, your

heart is beginning to heal.

Um, you're writing a book.

What was it that you learned about God during this phase?

that help you process and deal with that anger and confusion towards God, which was

what was there in the, in the beginning.

I think it is really, I mean, what we've talked about before is

about not putting God in a box.

I had got this, this box in my head mentally of this is

how my life will turn out.

I'm a bit of a control freak.

This is how, you know, all the relationships, you know,

I'm going to get married.

I'm going to have kids, you know, God's going to do this.

He's going to answer every prayer for me.

As soon as I pray, it's like this.

And then life is gonna turn out like this, and what I had to undo was my

control element, but also the putting God in a box, but also and, and, and

allowing God to, to be God in my life.

Like, I don't think he causes a lot of these things.

And yes, he does, like you say, have the power to stop some of

these things, but sometimes we just have to trust and we might not get

the answers and be okay with that.

Because he sees the bigger picture, and, and knowing that God is good,

and God is good at being good, and God is good at being God, like,

that was where I had to come to of just being okay with not knowing.

Um, that I think was the biggest turning point for me.

So, on one hand then you have this theology that God is good,

but on the other hand, obviously you've got your experience in life.

And so the way you have dealt with that, it sounds like Charlotte, is you've gone,

uh, I just, I, I have to trust that God is good and I don't know the answers

in spite of what I've been through.

Is that, am I understanding that right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's that it's always very open handed and I think it's like a lot of

things in life We're just never gonna find out the answers to some of these big

questions And I think if we continually question, go on the quest to answer some

of those questions It could lead us down some really funny and dark holes and

dark paths And I think sometimes it's just that simple trust of God, isn't it?

Yeah,

Yeah.

yeah it is.

And what I find interesting in your story, Charlotte, is actually it sounds

like you experienced God, you met God, um, during the trauma, during the

difficult times, during the hard times.

Um, and it was there God, Brought healing and restoration, not

necessarily understanding, which I think is quite interesting.

Um, but he did bring healing and transformation and restoration

during the dark times, didn't he?

Um, and that seems to be your story at this point.

Am I, am I getting this right?

Yes, that's right.

Yeah

So, What was it like for, um, and I just wanna go back to the first five

years because, um, you've been told you're not really gonna get pregnant,

but you're trying for five years.

That's a long time to have that constant monthly disappointment.

Uh, and, and face that.

How did you guys deal with that?

Because I know, I know for a lot of couples it can take a long time

to, to get pregnant and, and I'm curious how you dealt with that.

I mean, it was hard, but I think the great thing about Gav is he naturally

has big shoulders to, to kind of walk me through that, if that makes sense.

Like when I'm like, Oh, it's happened again.

It's like, it's okay.

And Gav has always been that sturdiness to my faith in that way.

where I've wobbled and, and it's been really interesting.

So in those times he was very much, but God's promised us we're going to have two

kids, but then obviously it's switched the other way around after we lost Micah, it

was me going, come on, God's promised us.

So I think it's, that's marriage, isn't it?

It's stepping up in an area to support the other person where they're struggling.

And stuff.

And he did that very much for me.

Um, and, and we tried to enjoy life, do a bit of traveling, go to places we want.

It was hard and there were some months that were harder than others.

Um, and it is hard when you're around friends and they're

like, Oh, we're pregnant.

And you're like, Huh?

You know, but, um, it's, you just, I think you draw closer to it as a couple as well.

Like a lot of humor helps us.

We're, we're very, you know, we make jokes of things and, uh,

just, that's what gets us through.

It's a very British thing to do, isn't it?

We don't understand it.

Let's make fun of it.

Um, that's good.

That's going to help us.

What would you, if you could go back in time to, you know, those

early years of marriage, um, those, those sort of five years.

What would you tell yourself?

What, what advice do you think would have helped you?

Um, just cause I know that there'll be people listening, which will be

going, Oh, this sounds like familiar.

Yeah, I think if I could tell myself again, like, obviously, now I have

children, which we'll come to later, but I got to the point where before

we got pregnant with Noah, and again, we'll come to that shortly, I got

to the point where I was like, I'm okay if this doesn't happen, because

Uh,

God is good and life is still good in spite of me wanting

something and not getting it.

Um, and I think that's a really hard place to come to because

you want something so much.

But once you come to a real place of trust, and the Bible talks so much about

us trusting God, that when you can really just surrender it all, that's when I

think it, God can take something, take that and turn it into something good.

Uh, Yeah.

Oh, fantastic.

So, okay, spoiler, I mean, you've, you know, spoiler alert, you, you,

you kind of spoil the ending there.

I mean, it's amazing the, you know, but, so, uh, you mentioned that

you then get pregnant with Noah.

So what happens, um, you've gone back home, you're getting healed

up, Gav's walked away from God.

So bridge that gap between getting, uh, from that point

to getting pregnant with Noah.

So it's another five years.

So in that five years, we have, um, IVF, um, first round worked, um, which was

amazing, really excited, but again, I'm going to the doctor, something's not

right, da, da, da, da, and, uh, the drugs they'd given me, they'd given me something

called OHSS, where you, body just carries on overproducing and overstimulated.

So that unfortunately caused a miscarriage.

Um, and I ended up having, um, a massive hemorrhage after that.

So I ended up in the hospital for a week.

Um, and actually in a, I can't say uncanny, I can't think of the word,

but, um, the, the room I end up in for a week is actually the room that the

charity Two weeks later was about to fundraise for to do up at the hospital.

So we're about, we literally had a, we'd been planning for months, a

charity ball that we were going to raise some money for the local hospital

to update their miscarriage suites.

And unfortunately I ended up in there.

So it gave me some insight into what those families face.

So I ended up in while I'm having some stuff going on a year later, we

have some more IVF and that failed.

Um, and that was quite devastating at that point.

Cause it was just like, okay, we're not getting pregnant.

Naturally IVF is not working.

Does this now mean adoption?

It's all those questions of, I actually found it harder.

I mean, I say this, I don't know.

Um, to know that God had promised me kids because God's promised me kids,

but I don't know how they come in.

And my natural reaction is, well, what do I need to do to make that happen?

You know, do I need to pop some children?

You know, so all that kind of stuff was really what I was wrestling with.

Mm.

Yeah, and then another two years later before I quit my job as a teacher and,

um, and a consultant, um, doing some stuff and moderating for local authority, uh, I

went to work for my friend and found out I was pregnant naturally within six weeks.

So, uh, yeah, um, but again, I think literally about two or three months before

that, I'd come to a point where I was like, God, I trust you, whatever happens.

And then Noah's pregnancy was a bit, you know, scary at times.

I have to inject myself every day because they found out I'd

got all these different medical conditions during this interim time.

Um, and a lot of dangerous medical conditions for pregnancy.

Um, but yeah, Noah was born naturally, conceived naturally.

Um, and he's, he was five last week, so it's been an absolute joy.

Well, happy birthday Noah, uh, for, for last week.

Um, so there's a, there's a recurring number of five coming up, uh,

in this conversation Charlotte.

well, yes, it is.

So it's Myla

no, no, no.

So, um, we'll come back to that in just a second, but let's

close off the story cause you.

Have two children.

We've mentioned this in the bio.

We did the little spoiler alert.

Um, what, so tell us about child number two, which I'm assuming is Grace.

So it's Myla-Grace hyphened so I always had backup names.

Don't know why.

Um, when I, um, so Micah was one of my backup names and Myla

was one of my backup names.

I was like, even if we get a dog, I like these names.

Uh, and then when I actually looked up what Myla means and it means gracious.

And God promised us a double portion of grace.

So Myla grace means gracious grace.

So she's our double portion of grace.

So it felt fitting to call her that.

Um, so yes, Myla was born, um, 16 months ago.

Um, she was probably too much information, but first try

after all those years, she was

Wow.

Um, so, uh, yeah, it, it, God has been absolutely amazing,

like just blown us away with his

faithfulness.

And, semi spoiler alert, this summer, so August this summer, will be 20 years

from when God gave us that picture, well gave me the picture, and Myla obviously

is now walking, so I really believe there will be a point this summer where

I will, it makes me well up just thinking of it, I will see that picture in real

life, um, that will, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Yeah.

There's just going to be that moment, isn't there?

And you're going to go, that's it.

how mad would that be?

Yeah,

That'd be the most precious thing.

Uh, and it'll be one of those things that you'll never forget.

And, um, but so, uh, well, it's great to hear, uh, you know, Myla

Grace and Noah are now on the scene.

And this is where I started to hear your story was because you

went on maternity leave when we were chatting, um, and you're like,

Oh, I'm going to wear maternity.

Oh, congratulations.

Then you're like, yeah, you don't even know the half of it, Matthew.

And I was like, I don't, uh, there's a whole lot of this story.

Um, so in all of this, Charlotte, you're, there are ups and there are downs, and

there seems to be a lot more downs than ups, I'm not gonna lie, on the, on the

getting pregnancy front, I don't know about the rest of life, um, where,

where does Gavin's story take a U turn?

Yeah, so he, um, he was, uh, working for a friend.

So this was just before COVID, so in the February before COVID.

Uh, he'd been working for a friend and that job hadn't kind of...

Worked out as they both discussed it to to the point where his

friend had said, okay I think so.

I think this was like the Wednesday.

I think we'll finish your job from Friday So it was nothing Gav had done It just

wasn't the role that they both had thought it was going to be So at that point Gavin

was like I have no job to do At the same time I'd left one of my jobs to go and

work for another job and it was an amazing job on paper like incredible salary, the

role I was doing, like even the recruiter for it was like, we've had over 200

people apply for this and he wouldn't even put any of them in front of him.

And he's had you and he's employed you.

And I got there and something just did not feel right in my heart.

And.

Eventually God after six weeks was just like, you need to leave.

I've given you exactly what you wanted, but this isn't where I want you.

And I just couldn't get that niggle out of my heart.

And I have never done anything like this.

But I said to Gav, I said, I think I've got to quit my job.

Um, so I'd quit my job in the December and bless the guy.

Like I'd gotten so well with him.

He said, look, I'll give you a month's garden leave, which was amazing.

And my brothers were over from Australia.

So we had a great Christmas, but come January.

We're both all of a sudden without a job on the Monday.

And it was like, what do we do?

We've got a young child.

How do we keep a roof above our head?

And on that same night, Gav had been having mentoring off a guy, um, that we

were doing some property investment with.

And he came around and he just said, I'm not going to talk to

you about property stuff, Gav.

I think it's time and you know what God's telling you to do and he went

home and Gav just went, God, I need you.

And he just broke down and just came back to the Lord.

So it was incredible.

It was honestly, it was so heartwarming and many years of prayer.

So

no kidding.

So what was it like?

I mean, you've talked a little bit about what it was like dealing with the grief

and coming to that place of surrender.

There is another element of this in the sense that In this image

that you have, not only have you got two kids, I'm assuming in your

head you've got a Christian husband.

Um, and so not only are the two kids seemingly not happening, the

husband, who's a great guy, is also, there's a big part of that picture

that's not quite in focus, maybe as you thought it was going to be.

What was it like seeing your husband walk away from God?

For those seven years, how did, how did that impact you?

I'm really curious.

it was hard.

It was really hard, especially initially.

Um, at first he was like, I don't want you to go to church.

I don't want you to go and you know, you don't need God.

Uh, at first he was like, I just think you should forget it and stuff.

But the catch is he actually also works as the church, as the site manager.

So he was still in church stuff.

But he was very like, oh, and the politics is putting me off

and all that kind of stuff.

But then I remember after about two or three, it was probably about three

years of him still working there.

One of the, one of the girls that I knew really well there, she was like,

you know, he started listening to worship music in his office again.

And so for, I think for him, it was a slow, gradual unfolding, but it was hard.

And again, like you say, it's hard when your whole picture's

come unraveled of kids.

Husband, you know, even the fear of if he completely walks away from God, what

happens if he walks away from me too?

You know, it's that, um, but I just had to keep trusting.

And honestly, my prayer life went to such a, an amazing level that I just

had to learn to just take everything to God and surrender it to him.

Hmm.

How was it?

How did you practically?

Deal with this on a day to day basis because you're not the, you know,

there are people listening to the show who will have a unbelieving spouse.

And it's, you know, there's a small portion in scripture that talks about

this, but, um, which is, which is great and wonderful, obviously, but

on a day to day practical level, how did you put that into practice?

What, what was life looking like for you?

It, did you have a deliberate strategy in your head?

If I can use phrases like that, um, or was it just a case of.

I'm not really going to think about this until it's, uh, I'll pray

about it, but I'm not going to try and think about it type of thing.

I think it's like any kind of evangelism strategy, just try not to shove it

down their throat, especially when you're at home with them all the time.

Like, I think at first I was trying to intentionally make too many, you know,

God's doing this and God, but in the end, it was just, if a natural thing came out,

I'd say it, you know, Oh, great today.

And this happened, you know, but I didn't force anything.

And, um, I'm sure there's a scripture in the Bible that talks about how

a husband can come to the Lord through the witness of his wife or

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they can, yeah.

And that, that really kind of gave me encouragement that I think just him

watching my faith unravel, um, or not unravel, sorry, build up and grow, I think

definitely encouraged him, um, especially as I got stronger and stronger in the fact

that, no, we are having these children.

So I, the journey went the opposite way.

He was very, we're having these children and then he's petered off and mine became

stronger as the years went on of my conviction of no, but God has promised

us two children and we're having them.

Yeah.

yeah.

It's interesting listening to your story, and as you're, as you're talking,

I'm reminded of the story that I read, um, about Polly Wigglesworth,

who was Smith Wigglesworth's wife

Okay.

you.

Um, and Smith Wigglesworth, for those that don't know, was around in the

early part of the 1900s, wasn't he?

He was a Bradford, Liverpool guy, and he, I mean, crazy miracles

sort of seem to follow him and there's lots of insane stories.

Um, uh, but his journey with God was quite complex.

And at one point, um, I can't remember why, but he decided to walk away from God.

Something had obviously happened and he'd walked away from God.

And he said to Polly, he said, you're not going to church.

I know enough to know the Bible says I'm the head of this house.

You're not going to, you're not going to church.

And Polly just went, no, Smith.

I am going to church and so she goes to church and Smith is so

angry with his wife and with God that he locks her out of the house.

Um, and if I, I, I just, I'm thinking at this point, if that was my wife,

there would be all kind, I would be in all kinds of trouble from about 40

different people if I ever did this.

Uh, but he locks Polly out of the house, right?

And what was interesting was the next day he came down the stairs and he unlocked

the door forgetting about the fact that he'd locked his wife out and his

wife had fallen asleep on the doorstep leaned up against the door and as the

door opened she cut she falls into the kitchen and Which obviously wakes her up.

do you say as a wife at this point?

There are very choice phrases which may have come out of most people's

mouths But Polly Wigglesworth does this thing where she just she gets up

off the floor She kisses her husband on the cheek says good morning to him

and fixes his favorite breakfast And the way that Smith Wigglesworth told

the story was he was so convicted about how his wife acted and behaved, um,

that he inevitably came back to God.

And so he, he's, he, he said, everything I am under God, I owe to my dear wife.

Um, uh, which I just think is a remarkable story.

Uh, and, uh, I think.

There, there are, there are things that, you know, it's the unseen

actions which have the biggest impact on our kids, on our spouses.

I can imagine, actually, that that wasn't actually just that moment either.

I can imagine if he unpicked it, there were probably more little moments

I'm sure there were.

that led up to that moment.

It's a bit like, they say, Paul and when he had his conversion, actually

there was probably a lot more moments along the way before he had this

big, you know, glaring conversion.

Yeah, there have been lots of things.

Yeah, yeah, I've no doubt, I've no doubt, but it's an interesting one, isn't it?

So, throughout all this trauma, and the miscarriage, and the failed IVF,

and the grief, you're growing stronger and stronger in your faith that

you are going to have two children.

Um, which seems a bit...

Of a contradiction in terms, isn't it?

It feels like sort of polar opposites.

It's getting worse, so therefore my faith is going to get stronger.

Did you ever think about it in those terms, or was it just, actually,

no, this is what I'm, I'm, the more this happens, the more I'm getting

convinced we're on the right track.

I mean, don't get me wrong, there were still months where I was like, Uh, this

isn't gonna happen, I'm mad, you know.

But I think it was just the more I think the Bible talks about

having set in your face like flint.

Is it flint?

I'm

Yeah,

getting my words muddled up today.

that is Flint, yep.

that's what I just put to my head was that's what I need to do.

I need to be so fixed on the truth of God and what he's witnessed, but not

so fixed that I have to make it happen.

But just like, right, God, this is something I know,

like I'm parking to the side.

and saying I trust you with it while I focus on this stuff.

And while it got busier with the stuff that was other than that, it built me

up, it gave me hope, it restored my soul.

While God could deal with the other stuff, with Gav, with the future, with,

you know, all of that kind of stuff.

So yeah, there were still days, but I definitely think it's one of those

where you've just got to fix your gaze ahead on the, on the, on the.

price set ahead of us because, you know, as much as I could have been thought

about that, who knows that I could have dropped down dead in the meantime, you

know, so we can get so consumed by the one thing that we take our eyes off

everything else in the bigger picture.

Yeah, that's powerful.

That's super powerful.

Who, um, one of the stories that I, I, I love in scripture is where Mary gets

pregnant and she, she clears off and hangs out with Elizabeth for three months.

Um, you know, and Elizabeth encourages Mary.

Um, who's your Elizabeth in all of this?

Who's, who was the, the encourager?

I've had a few, but for different.

reasons or ways, like my mum's been there as a generic support through all of it.

My mum and dad eventually came to faith as well.

Um, but then we had Sue, who was the midwife who delivered Micah.

She has been there every step of the way.

Particularly she came and delivered Noah as well as part of the delivery

for Noah as well, um, and was also on the phone doing my phone,

my delivery for Myla as well.

So, um, yeah, there's a number of women that I just.

I would thank, but, and I think it's, it's that building an army, isn't it?

You want a group of friends and people around you that are the ones

that would, you know, take you to the roof of a building, rip it apart

and lower you down before Jesus.

And that's what you need sometimes is just a group of stretcher bearers who

you can go to for different things.

Yeah.

I'm not somebody who has one person, I have several, usually.

Got you.

You're greedy.

You've got more than one.

You've got like a group.

Yeah, yeah,

love that.

You need a set of people who will rip the roof off and lower you down.

If just explain what you mean by that Charlotte for people

that might not be familiar with that story from from the gospel.

Yeah.

yeah, I try.

Yeah, so there's that great story in the Bible where, um, it talks about the

paralytic man and, um, he's taken by his friends and they can't get close

enough to Jesus, who's obviously, they know he's doing miracles.

So they take him up onto the roof and they rip the roof open.

And they lower him down so that Jesus can, uh, obviously heal him,

um, and tell him to take his mat and get up and walk, which is amazing.

So, but it's the, it's the persistence of his friends that get

him there, you know, uh, and I love,

Yeah, and it's interesting when you get those kind of friends, because

I like you, I have those, I have a group of friends like that who I

feel would rip off roofs for me if they, if they deemed it important.

Um, and I'm so grateful for those friends and for that friendship.

It's quite a remarkable thing.

Um, and I'm very intentional in making sure that I, I keep up with

those, you know, those friends, um, which is, which is super important.

Charlotte, listen, I am aware of time.

I'm aware that we are, uh, we're rapidly running out of it.

Um, if people, I mean, I.

I can't ask you to tell me what the website is for your charity because

you just don't know, uh, but we will put that in the show notes.

Um, but if people want to reach out to you, if they want to connect with

you, if they want to find out more, what's the best way to do that?

Yeah, so there's the contact form on the website so they can just reach in there.

Um, we've also got the ability on there where if they do want to send

a copy of the book to somebody, they can fill in the form and then we just

post it out to them free of charge.

Or, um, if it's like a church or an organization that want a handful of those.

Books, again, we can post those out to people again, free of charge.

Uh, we've sent them to so many places and sometimes people

ask for like boxes of them that they've got available to hand out.

Sometimes it's just blessing a friend who's just gone through a

miscarriage or a loss of a job.

Um, so it's just a really helpful resource, uh, to send out.

So yeah, once, once I get you the website, uh, you can

We'll put, and we'll put it, yeah, we'll put it in the show notes.

Um, Charlotte, listen, one final word, uh, from you to, you know, you've come

through a lot and I, I see resilience and I see faith and I see, uh, just an

amazing person, if I'm honest with you.

I just love hearing your story in, uh, in a good way, you know, in the

sense that obviously God's with you and, um, your outlook on life is so

refreshing and wonderful and beautiful.

Just a final word from you, maybe people listening to the show have been touched

a little bit by what you're saying.

Uh, let's end on a, on a note of encouragement.

Yeah, I think, I think for the person who's still trying for a baby, trust

God and, you know, be led by him and his Holy Spirit and, you know, whatever

that looks like, God is still good.

For the person who's lost a child, allow God to take you through that healing.

Um, you know, he, he can bring hope and, and, and life again, once to your life.

Um, and they call them rainbows.

Uh, so Noah and Myla are our rainbow babies.

And to somebody who's maybe struggling with a spouse or a family

member, who's far away from God.

Um, just keep praying.

Prayer does amazing things.

So God is good.

Um, yeah.

fantastic.

It's true.

And I, I would only, the only thing I would add is mix that with

a little bit of patience because sometimes it won't happen tomorrow.

Um, uh, but you know, if we're in there for the long haul, it's amazing.

What prayer, persistent prayer does, uh, over many years, um, and trust in God.

Charlotte, it has been wonderful.

It has been awesome and lovely to talk to you.

Thanks for being so amazing, uh, and such a legend.

And, um, it's great to have been doing stuff with you, um,

and great to get to know you.

And, uh, bless you and your family and phenomenal story.

And, and thank God for you guys.

Thanks for having me.

And just like that, we've reached the end of another fascinating conversation.

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