Permission to be human: How to be a parent and a psychologist with Dr Jade Redfern

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today I'm joined by Dr Jade Redfern, a clinical psychologist who specialises in supporting parents. With experience in both the NHS and a busy private practice, she's now the founder of the Permission to be Human group for psychologist parents, and is passionate about helping other mental health professionals to thrive in their roles both as business owners and parents. 

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links for Jade:

Website: www.drjaderedfern.co.uk

Instagram: @drjaderedfern

Links for Rosie:

Substack: substack.com/@drrosie

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• Jade tells us about what led her to the business that she has now 00:54
• Jade talks about the challenges of parenting as a psychologist 02:47
• We discuss the myth of perfect parenting and the impact of social media on parenting 08:14 
• Jade tells us how Permission to be Human was born 22:16
• We discuss the impact of professional experience on parenting 29:06
• We talk about the importance of reflective practice 31:36
• I ask Jade about her experience with getting support in in her business 35:09
• Jade tells us how we can get in touch 47:51

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SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Jade Redfern

Hello and welcome to The Business of Psychology. Today I'm joined by Dr Jade Redfern. She's a clinical psychologist who specialises in supporting parents. With experience in both the NHS and a busy private practice, she's now the founder of the Permission to be Human group for psychologist parents, and is passionate about helping other mental health professionals to thrive in their roles both as business owners and parents. So I really can't wait to hear more about that. Sounds very up my street indeed! Welcome to the podcast, Jade.

Thank you, Rosie. Thank you so much for having me.

So we're going to talk today about your journey in your business, the key challenges that you see facing parents in your practice, and also why we need permission to be human. But let's start with your career so far. So can you tell us a bit about what led you to the business that you have now?

Sure. So I qualified too many years ago to count, more than 10, 11, 12 years ago I think. I've always been interested, I've always worked with children, adolescents, families, parents, I often, all of my different roles within the NHS have been working with trauma and kind of understanding, I guess understanding ourselves and understanding young people as we develop from the inside out. I used to work, actually, I started out in kind of working in forensics and with youth offenders, and it always really baffled me that when I was reading reports, and I didn't know much at the time, but I just, all I was reading was, the DDDs, so the deficits and the disorders, and I wanted to understand more like, what's really going on? This doesn't actually help me understand this unique young person and what they need. So, I think I always felt like I thought differently from this kind of very medicalised, kind of disordered sort of model. And yeah, and I think when I look back, I guess the kind of key thread between all of my jobs was being interested in working with the systems that are supporting a child. And I think both professionally, personally, just seeing the impact that, you know, when parents become parents, you know, it's not like suddenly childhood is done with, like childhood, our childhood, in positive ways and not so positive ways can live on in us. And I think it was really having worked with parents for so many years, I remember, you know, being pregnant with my first, I now have three, but being pregnant with my first kind of, gosh, would've been seven, over seven years ago. And thinking, well, you know, this can't be too hard. Like, I've worked with parents, I've worked with children. I kind of know my stuff to some extent. This can't be too hard. And well, let's just say that was not my experience and yes, I think having children has been the most emotional job I have ever done. And I think coming from clinical psychologist that works in trauma, you know, that says a lot. And I think it just knocked me sideways just becoming a parent thinking that I would, you know, I've got this knowledge I should, I should, see there it is, I should know what to do. I should know how to care for my baby. And yeah, I was finding everything so, so unbelievably difficult. And then there came the shame, there came the, the feelings of like, you know, I'm just not doing a good job. And, and feeling then more of, and it kind of brought up these kind of feelings of like feeling like a fraud in the job that I was doing as a professional because I was struggling with the things that I was helping other parents with at home.

I don't think I could be nodding more, could I, I mean, head's probably going to fall off! Because I remember the moment that I bumped into a client in Sainsbury's, and anybody that's got children with labels like autism or ADHD will know that Sainsbury’s isn't a great place to be. And I had one of them that was on the floor having a meltdown, and another one that was pulling all the cans off the shelf and just throwing them. And then I saw a client. And I thought, oh goodness, this doesn't look good. And I had all of those feelings, all of that shame, all of that imposter syndrome. But it was so interesting because when she came into her next appointment, she was almost in tears telling me how grateful she'd been, that she'd seen that and realised that actually I wasn't this superhuman that always had, you know, perfect children following me like little ducklings. I was like, oh yeah, we need to be more real about this. It really helps people to know that we are human, but it's uncomfortable.

Yeah, it's really uncomfortable. And even now, you know, even now, you know, because it's almost heightened for me that the specialism that I've gone into, I'm also, you know, I'm also living some of the, you know, my three children are all under seven, and, you know, so yes, I have not listening challenges in my house, so I have tantrums in my house, or I have a whining child hanging off my leg every morning whilst trying to make breakfast and all the kind of normal stuff that goes on that sometimes it's really hard. And then I come to work and I talk about it and I'm supporting parents with it. So I think sometimes it's also recognising where do we give ourselves space for that humanity for that, to be human. And I think historically, like a lot of training that many of us have had is around, you know, don't share too much of yourself. You know, I mean, everybody's had, you know, a variety of trainings, but, you know, that somehow we are this somewhat of a blank slate. And I think actually, you know, sometimes we have had a hard, more often we've had a hard morning or, and that's not to say in therapy as such we necessarily share that stuff. But I think when we're thinking about running businesses and being potentially visible online, and it's a really tough one to navigate, how much you share, what's appropriate, what's not. You want to show, I want to show that I'm human, but at the same time, I, you know, I don't want to be, you know, going live on my Instagram, you know, having a meltdown of my own. So it's a bit of a fine dance, trying to figure that out.

Yeah, I think that's such a good analogy for it. It does feel like a dance, and in the therapy room it's a bit easier to do that dance because you get the sense of what the other person needs. And I think that's a core therapeutic skill, isn't it? You know, what's going to be useful for this person right now is something that we are kind of trained to figure out. But when you are doing it at a larger scale, as you and I have both done with our programs and being more visible online, that's much more difficult because you're holding in mind a whole group of people that might need different things from you. And I think that's where it can trip us up. How have you got comfortable with, you know, finding what works for you online?

So I would say, first of all, that I still experience a lot of discomfort. So I've got comfortable with being uncomfortable, if that's a phrase I can use. I think that I go in phases. I think that some people will see the content that I put out there and just always remembering that we're seeing anything that we see, whether it's online or in person in life, we're seeing it through a particular lens. And we know this, we know this as psychologists, we teach this, like to understand the cognitive bias that we have you know, we'll be seeing like if there's something we are struggling with, perhaps we're struggling to show up online, you're going to have a cognitive bias where you go see, maybe you go see Rosie yourself or me online and think, oh, how is she doing it? And she's so confident she's not worried. It's not true. I would say that for the most of us, I don’t know if this is true for you, Rosie too. It's kind of taking some of the fears along for the ride. I think that confidence comes through action and taking action and messy action. It's easier said than done. I think having people around you that can kind of cheer you on having just a few cheerleaders to say yes, it's great because you get all the mind monkeys come up saying, oh my goodness me, I just said this thing, and how's that going to land? I think that all of us doubt and question ourselves at times, just knowing that, keep it simple. And just think, yeah, think of like what's your one message that you want to get across, you know? So for me it's, if I had to summarise it, it's, it's about regulation and trying to dispel this myth that to be a good parent you need to be calm all the time because it's just not true. Because it doesn't make any biological sense, if your child is having a meltdown or not listening or trying to run across the road or has just thwhacked their sibling, why would we feel calm? And whereas regulation is something which is about flexibility and it's about becoming dysregulated and bringing ourselves back and not pushing emotion down or away. It's really hard, even for psychologists who teach this stuff because as young children, we were not taught or modeled or shown this. So our nervous system, this is not familiar to us. So we are having to do so much unlearning. And I don't think it's a one and done thing. I don't think it's like, oh, I'm now regulated. It's a bit like, I mean, I'd love it if I could just get fit. I used to be very fit. I used to play a lot of National League hockey. I now have three children and don't play any hockey, and I could really do with getting fit again. And I tell you what, if someone said to me if you could go to the gym once, do this fantastic exercise and you'll just be fit forevermore, I would be well up for that. But I know it's not true. And it's the same with regulation. It's actually a way of living and how we're living our lives. So I think if, yeah, that's my message showing up online continually. And it's almost like getting bored of your own message, but actually it's just repeating it in many different ways and getting really confident with that kind of core message that you want to get out to the world to help people.

That's such a powerful way of thinking about it. I mean, I think, I read a book about doing a TED Talk and that was the message in that it was, you know, find the message that you are determined to spread to the world and just make everything about that. And you will get bored, but the audience won't because people don't see hardly any of what you put out there. And yeah, I think that's so powerful because often we have this, probably because of the imposter syndrome and all of that stuff that goes on in our heads, we think that what we know is common sense and so we don't, you know, we think we need to over explain, give more and more theory, more and more academic support for what we're saying. Actually keeping it simple and on one subject allows people to learn so much more from it. And just picking up on what you were saying about this myth that we should be calm all the time with our children, I think this to me feels like quite a modern phenomena. I hear this a lot in my clinic from parents and I think, and I really want your take on this, that this is coming from the popularity of stuff like attachment parenting and gentle parenting on social media. And it's really concerning me because obviously we know that the literature behind attachment parenting and gentle parenting is not, you know, become this or automaton where you never show any feelings and you're just always calm and regulated for your child. But that is definitely the way it's being interpreted by my clients. Is that what you’re seeing?

Yeah, and I think it's, it's really tricky and I think it's sometimes very challenging, especially online. And, and one of the main platforms I use is Instagram, for example. And so a lot of the time, you know, you're taught as a content creator well, and not just taught, you see it, that the most viewed or reacted to reels, you know, they have a strong, you know, often negative hook. They have to be like under seven seconds long, you know, and it's really, really challenging. It's really, really challenging. And actually some of the reels that I will put out there where I'm, you know, talking for a minute and a half and explaining something and giving really juicy tips will be the least well performing, you know, piece of content. So I think it's a challenge, but yes, I think sometimes it's understanding that, you know, when you're describing these really sensitive topics that we are talking about human beings, that we are talking about people who have lived experiences and how we kind of support people to feel seen and heard, but at the same time, yes, it is our responsibility to learn how to regulate our emotions, and so it's such a tricky, balance, it's such a, a dance. I think that I talk a lot about calmer parenting because it is a goal that many of us have, of course we want to feel calmer and yes, when we are calmer and we manage to regulate, not push it down, you know, we're going to get better responses from our kids. But to be that kind of calm zen parent all of the time, it kind of falls into that kind of idea of this perfect parent that's just going to be zen all the time. But actually, do our kids really need that or do they need to see a human parent? You know, some of the most incredible moments I've had with my kids have been, we were having a conversation the other week, walking to school and they were saying, oh, I dunno how we got on the topic, but they were talking about doctors, oh, that was it, an ambulance went past as we were walking, and I was saying, oh, that's like, you know, your uncle who's a paramedic and oh, they're going to help somebody, because my daughter finds the loud sound difficult. And then my son, who's just turned five, he said, oh, like you, mummy, you’re a doctor, you are a feeling doctor. He said you help people feel better. And so we had this little conversation about feelings and big feelings, how they burst out of our bodies. And he said, yes, and that happens to you sometimes too Mummy, doesn't it? And it was just so normalising because one bit of me was like, oh gosh, and the other bit was like, yes, yes it does. And it was just so normal and so real and how we are all working on this together that I'm not better than them or I don't know. And I think that actually in our messy moments, as I like to call them, and there are many in our household, these messy moments, we can turn them into golden opportunities for ourselves and our kids. You know, and for us to somehow strive toward being this perfect zen parent or whatever this perfect parent could look like, is just not really serving our children because it's almost in creating this pressure that they need to somehow be the perfect child, and actually we need our children to be children. And children are messy. Children are flailing arms. Children have big behaviors. You know, children are supposed to be immature and actually the immaturity in their brain when it's allowed to progress in a very immature way, it, that's what develops maturity, in a really healthy way. That doesn't mean that it's not hard for us as parents, you know, but, so yeah, I think normalising the humanness of us all you know, and if you have deeply feeling kids, sensitive kids, like they, they don't want the direct lessons, the how to manage your feelings and going in through that front door direct approach. They want to hear the side door approaches, they want to hear you talk about your messy moments, your feelings, and how hard it is sometimes when a volcano erupts inside of our tummy, those are the drops that are going to help them develop regulation more than anything else.

Yeah, I think that's so valuable and it does seem to be so much harder for parents these days because there's so many idealised versions of parenthood sort of fed into their eyeballs via their phones. And actually I think in the mainstream media too, like I think we're seeing much more of, maybe not more, maybe the same that we had when we were growing up, but I always think I love Stacey Solomon, but I do also feel really inferior when I watch her stuff and I'm aware of that in myself and I try to limit how much I will watch of it. But a lot of my friends are just consuming that kind of content all the time. The kind of sort your life out message, all the time. Like it's not real. It isn't real. She's probably got a lot of childcare support, a lot of it. Much more than you or I have. Cleaners, all sorts. There's an army I'm sure behind what looks like somebody that can manage about seven kids and a glittering career.

Yeah. She even put out a video recently I saw, which was saying exactly that. She does try, and she says, you know, she has wonderful family. She has family that will just scoop the kids up and take them out. She has, you know, all sorts of help, help for the home help. So I think it's just all we, the thing is we are never going to stop comparisonitis. We're never going to stop comparing. We're not going to stop the way that our brain is wired to have that cognitive bias. I remember a time when I was feeling really, and I've had, and I still do, I have moments in motherhood and in private practice where it can feel quite lonely. and I remember going out with my two young kids. They were, you know, close in age. And I was aware that I was feeling this kind of loneliness that, you know, I didn't have someone that day to meet up with, and whilst I, you know, was enjoying my day out with the kids, I was really feeling that, you know, it would be lovely to have an adult conversation at the moment. And so everywhere I looked, I could see these groups of parents, you know, out for the day having a lovely time, and it was only when I called out my cognitive bias where I was like, ah, it's that thing that's happening, and kind of said, okay, now I want you to look for the opposite, look for those parents that are on their own, I suddenly just, it opened my field of vision and I could see far more parents on their own, and it led to me actually going up to somebody and saying hello. And I think it's just recognising when we're doing that thing, when we're in that spiral, because the algorithm is going to pick up on your eye gaze. It picks up on the things that you're going to be drawn to and your brain is going to be drawn to, if you're struggling in your relationship, it's going to be drawn to all the seemingly happy couples, you know, or we know this, you know, if somebody's trying to get pregnant, you're going to see lots of pregnant women. So it's just recognising that that's what happens in all of our brains. Or if you see someone killing it on social media, or that's what it might look like, that's what you're going to be drawn to, that's what you're going to be seeing. So just knowing, again, it's just understanding the filter, the lens through which we're seeing all these things.

And I think also, it's not all about us either. Like, I'm on a bit of a soapbox about this at the moment, but a lot of what we are doing, trying to put out that more nuanced message to people, maybe putting out content that is about cognitive bias and that sort of perspective, I think sometimes we forget to talk about the forces that are working against us as human beings. You know, the tech companies are deliberately training their algorithms to show you the stuff that will maximise your comparisonitis. You have to work against it actively. And you know, when we were watching Adolescence, and people were talking about what we need to do as parents to train our boys to be feminist boys and all of this, I was like, yeah, but let's not forget that there are big forces at play that our intent on doing the opposite. Some of the most powerful people in the world are intent on doing the opposite. And so I think, again, parents can be very quick to take all of this on themselves. And I hear, I'm sure you hear this in clinic too, a lot of people, oh, I'm addicted to my phone, why can't I stop this bloomin’ comparisonitis? But they take it on themselves, and I'm like, yes, okay, we need to take responsibility for the bit we can control, but oh my goodness, remember who you're up against and the fact that, you know, we are these tiny little Davids against these massive Goliaths. And yes, I believe we can make positive difference, but I never want people to forget that the system is sort of rigged against them.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes we just get so prone to beating ourselves up and being so hard on ourselves. And I think, you know, working with, you know, lots of psychologists, mental health professionals, you know, we hold ourselves, you know, to high account. We, you know, we are responsible for the things that, and the actions that we're taking. But at the same time, I think we can just be so harsh and critical on ourselves, and I think forget, you know, because there's, I think what I hear the most is this idea of I should know better, I should be able to do this better, or I'm a fraud because, you know, I'm supporting my clients or my families to hold better boundaries, and yet I'm really struggling with it myself, or I, you know, help my clients, you know, have better regulation skills, but I'm really struggling at home with my own kids. And I just think that it needs to be spoken about more, within safe communities where we can be real, we can be honest because yes, we have lots of training, but that does not make us not human and I think actually we know that when we can give ourselves permission to feel the things that we feel and actually have space to talk about it and own it and not feel so much shame, that's going to help us, that's going to help us feel more regulated. It's going to help us feel more connected to ourselves instead of being really, really critical about the things that we should be doing or shouldn't be doing. Or, you know, we are still perfectly imperfect human beings.

And I think that reflective work, alongside other psychologists, that sounds to me as important as supervision. It is like a type of supervision. Because actually when you're feeling that shame and your client touches on something that brings up that shame in you, stop listening. It's so difficult to connect when we feel that shame and, you know, I notice it in myself, like you said, it's a bit like a dance, like some days I don't, you know, that's not going to come up for me, other days it's going to come up for me the whole time. And it's like recognising it, regulating, getting back in the room. And I think when you do do work, as we both do, which is close to your personal experience, that can be really difficult if you don't have that space to regularly reflect and work through that shame with others.

Yeah, absolutely, and I think a lot of it is that, you know, and this is how Permission to be Human was born, this reflective group for psychologist parents, because we hold so much space for others, we are holding space for our clients, we're holding space for our kids. We are maybe trying to hold space for partners, whoever in our lives, you know, we have family members, aging family members. We're holding so much space. We are generally pretty good at compassion and understanding, and we're often formulating and thinking, and who's holding space for us? Like truly holding space for us? And you know, there, I always say, there's no emotional tank big enough for all of, for all of this. And it's like, where does that stuff go? And this is this piece around, yes, we can widen our window of tolerance, we can work on our nervous system, but where does it then go? This is the thing we hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. We get through the day and then we hold, hold, hold and we're really trying to keep it together. And then bedtime hits, the lid flips because we're full and then, and then kids are finally in bed, we settle down and we feel like terrible parents, but we're not giving ourselves permission to think, gosh, I am holding so much, I am doing so much. I see all the time parents who are like, feel guilty because they're at work and they would rather be spending more time with their kids. And then the opposite being true. So someone might read a post like that and think, well, I feel guilty because actually I work five days a week and I love my work, and I love, you know, but I, that's what I want to do, but oh, I should be seeing my kid more because there's just so much pressure, so it goes beyond the comparison and into that idea of, I guess, rules and shoulds and how things should be and I think tapping back into having that space to actually openly reflect and know that we are all similar in many ways, but we were also really, really different. And so yeah, I think so much of it is around where do we take that stuff? You know, how much of it can you actually take to your clinical supervisor? It depends because maybe they have kids, maybe they don't. Maybe they, maybe actually you just want to keep that relationship purely based on your professional clients and things. But yeah, we do as a profession in general, I think appreciate and value reflection. I don't think there's enough of it. But also I think in, you know, I think in work that I've done, you know, sometimes I think what happens is when we are holding so much stuff and something very relatable to us comes up in the therapy room or in an assessment that we're doing, what I think we can sometimes switch to is our sort of stress response, which can actually be often to go into fix it mode, solution focused mode. And I know some of these are models of therapy, but actually because we actually struggled to hold the space and actually allow for, I don't know, the feelings to flow or for the experience to be fully held and understood because we kind of almost, if we're honest with ourselves, and I have experienced this, so I hope I'm not the only one, where you kind of want to go into the fix, go into the strategy because it is hard to hold. It's hard to hold it. And it's the same for our kids. We can kind of sometimes hold the space for somebody else and validate and all that kind of stuff, but then when it's coming up for our kids and our kids saying that they're feeling lonely or they're anxious or they're struggling, we want to jump to the solution and find the fix.

That's so insightful. I remember my daughter was really struggling at school and every time I would pick her up, she was obviously sad and, you know, she struggled to verbally explain these things. And so I've, I'd be saying to her, you know, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? And she'd never tell me. And then I had a parent consultation with the SENCO and she's like, oh, she told me, and she, and she was like, oh, it's a, you know, described all of these things that had been going on for her. I was like, I didn't know about any of that. So I said to my daughter, like, oh, I'm really pleased that you were able to tell this teacher about these difficulties, but I wonder why you couldn't tell me when I was asking. And she said, oh, well mum, it's because you always suggest stuff to do and I don't want to do it. I was like, oh, okay. So since then I've worked really hard on just listening rather than jumping all the time into fixing. And you are so right, I know where that came from. That was like, oh no, I can't stand it. I've got to make this better. I've got to make it better. And I would hope I don't do that with the parents that come to my clinic. But yeah, I think my daughter was just sort of, yeah, getting that solution focused version of me all the time.

Yeah. But what a beautiful moment. You know, a moment that can be filled with shame, that can be filled with, oh my gosh, I'm failing, or how can my daughter share this with the teacher, but not with me? But actually what a beautiful moment that she can actually say, say it how it is, and for us to take that on board as feedback. And I truly believe that parenting in this way can be much more of a kind of messy dance between us, where we are getting to know them and they're getting to know us instead of feeling like we carry the full responsibility of how our children turn out, that actually they also bring so much, they bring temperaments, they bring personalities, they bring spirits. They bring so much, and we bring so much. And it's, parenting for me is very much about developing a relationship and we know healthy relationships have messy moments, ruptures, repairs, and challenges. And I think one of the hardest things, we know this in our professional work, but also as a mum, as a parent with your own children, it's hard to zoom out to do that practice yourself. It's why therapists have therapists. It's why coaches have coaches, because we all get enmeshed in our own stuff. We overthink things, you know? I mean, it was recently my son, I don't think he would meet, he's just turned five, I don't think he would meet criteria for neurodiversity, but he definitely has flavours of, you know, he's often like things very much lined up and he likes them ordered. He has certain things, he likes certain ways. He doesn't particularly cope with change. But he's also very, very young still. And there was a day I came home and I started voice-noting a colleague and friend of mine saying, I think he has OCD, I think he has OCD. And anyway, and she helpfully did what I do for so many parents, which was, okay, let's just reframe this. He's four, he's just started school, he's needing the routine, you know, and she was just really helping me zoom back out and not look at this, me needing to necessarily put a full blown label on him, and, you know, panic about, he basically gets me to say the same phrase every morning as he goes into school and it calms him, and he goes anyway. But it's just as an example of even when we work in this, even when this is our sort of, you know, specialism, of course our own kids, we're going to get very close to, we are very close to, we are very involved and our own stuff. You know, for me, like the areas of life that will trigger our parts and our staff the most are your kids and running a business. That's been my experience. They will pull out parts of you that, you know, for me, I often say, you know, becoming a mum, it kind of brought up parts of me I didn't even know existed before having kids. So, you know, I used to think I was a relatively calm person and then I had three!

Yeah, three as a whole thing! But I definitely think that there's an element of when we've, when you've worked in mental health for quite a while before you have children, you see the lifespan impacts of certain experiences. And you know, I remember before my kids were diagnosed actually, but when I realised that probably they were autistic, I had in my mind somebody I'd worked with as an adult in a learning disability service who, I mean, he had just been abused because of his autism through his whole childhood and had had mental health difficulties subsequently, always, and really extreme ones actually. It was one of those cases that you work with where the system isn't holding very much hope, and it was my job as a relentless optimist that I am to be the one that injected the hope all the time, which I love to do actually. And so I'd loved the work that I'd done with this person, but it really stuck in my mind like, this is what could go wrong here if I don't change this narrative about my children, if I don't educate the people around them, if I don't advocate for them enough at school. What a responsibility that is. And I always say the same thing, I work with a lot of gynecologists, obstetricians who are terrified of their own childbirth because they've seen the worst case scenario over and over again. They've not seen any of the easy births that happen, I believe that there are some, they're not involved in any of that. And as psychologists, we are not typically involved either in childhoods that have gone to plan when we work with adults. And so I think I often jump to that place of, I have to be the one that creates the better outcome. I know better, so I should do better. And that's totally unrealistic. Nobody is a superhuman and no one person has so much influence either.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, Rosie, about like the lens through which we're seeing things of course. And it's not about removing that, but being aware that we are looking through certain glasses and how can we have processes of people in our lives, whether that's reflective, reflective practice groups, coaching to just help us see through different lenses, to be able to take the goggles off and to just zoom out because of course, yeah. I mean, I've worked with trauma, I've worked with, you know, that's been one of my specialisms to work with childhood trauma. And I think, you know, an EMDR supervisor once said to me, which was so useful when I was working with a wonderful gentleman who had extensive childhood trauma, and we are impacted by it. You know, we are impacted by the work. And I was finding myself getting quite stuck and triggered in some of my sessions with him, and I was seeing him as the young, vulnerable child that was coming up in the sessions. And it's that idea of like, she needed to keep reminding me and I had to kind of front load my brain before seeing him every week, that he has survived, that he is now, you know, 40 something years old, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And I think the same, you know, when we see, I mean, I experienced a lot of bullying growing up. I had a really tough time at school, and I’m very aware of the ideas of like seeing, you know, I don't know if, if I see one of my children, you know, calling someone a name or, you know, and it can, it really does trigger up that stuff. And so I think that's why working on our own stuff continually as a kind of practice is so important. I think it's really common that, you know, we'll see a certain behavior in our child and it will trigger this kind of future fear, you know? So, I don't know, let's say our child is going through a hitting phase, or they're struggling with their emotions and having these big anger outbursts, and maybe you work in forensics and suddenly we're getting these thoughts and feelings, and sometimes it's not fully conscious, sometimes it's subconscious, but these thoughts that our child's going to become so unruly, they're going to be, you know, a young offender or whatever it might be, it doesn't always have to be that extreme, but just being aware that we have these thoughts and of course it impacts us and the work that we do and the parenting that we do. I think one of the things I will often remind parents of though, is that when they will say, and they work in trauma and they say, you know, I'm worried, you know, is it going to be me that they're going to be talking about in therapy? I will often say that actually for those that I work with that have really extensive trauma, the experiences they've had, you know, rarely do they say, you know, well my mum, you know, sometimes yelled, and she would come and apologise and she, you know, was working on her stuff and, but then she would yell again. You know, it was, that's not the stuff that would come up. You know, often it is experiences of where parents are just completely unaware, and unable to see their own stuff, and their own traumas, and not working on things. So I think for many of us, and many of those, I'm sure listening to this podcast are very intentional parents, but it isn't, it just is so not about perfect parenting, it really is about being human and yeah, just noticing that all of us have these challenges, you know, and part of life is about becoming aware of them and working on them and not expecting ourselves to do it alone. I think it is just so difficult to be able to do these things on our own, you know, to give ourselves therapy, to give ourselves coaching. I mean, there are absolutely tools that we can use that help. I think it's hard.

Yeah. And it's so interesting, isn't it? because I think we do have a culture where we expect ourselves to do it on our own as a nuclear family, as parents. But that also translates when psychologists and therapists go into business. They also expect themselves to be able to do everything on their own in their business. And I don't think that's true of other groups that set up businesses, but it is so true for us. So what's been your experience with getting support in to help you grow to where you are now, which you know, frankly is thriving it looks like, from the outside.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's often this saying that goes around, you know, there's everyone, you know, we all have the same number of hours in the day. You know, there's whatever, depending on how much you sleep, you know, there's whatever hours in the day. And it's not true because everybody has different support systems. Some people have family support, you know, childcare support. Some people don't. Also, some people want to spend more time with their children in those early years, and some people do not, and all is okay. So it's knowing that. I would also say that the things that have helped me, have been to take some scary and bold moves to hire help. As I said earlier on, it has been about taking the fear with me, and still I'm making decisions in my business where I'm thinking, oh, not sure that was the wisest decision, but I made the decision nonetheless. And I think many of us can get stuck in procrastinating, worrying, trying to get it right, choosing the right platform, instead of just choosing one and going with it. We can just waste so much time and energy, and I still do about certain things. The things that I have kind of put out there and launched into the world as a kind of beta version, actually, you know, nothing bad happens, you know, you learn. I have a thing that I say to myself all the time in business, which is about FAIL. First attempt in learning, FAIL, there's no such thing. And even though my body is screaming at me, even as I talk to you now saying this, my body is screaming at me saying there is, there is such a thing, there absolutely is. My mind is kind of actually trying to work with my body to remind it that actually I'm safe because a lot of the time, you know, our nervous system will try and keep us safe. It doesn't care about being right. It doesn't care about progress. It just cares about keeping you safe, keeping you small, keeping you familiar. I think a lot of us fear judgment from peers. What will family say? What will our colleagues say? I think one of the hardest things in business has been, and it's still something I'm working on, is that in order to attract the people that you want to attract into your world, because you can really help them and you want to work with them, you kind of also at the same time will and need to repel people. And for the good girl people pleaser in me that wants to please everybody, that is just still something that I'm working on. The idea of repelling someone is like… uhhh! But I get it in my mind, but my body is still catching up with that one. So I guess it's just knowing that, you know, just having an idea, and psychologists I believe don't have a problem with having an idea.

No, I've never met one that does actually.

And then we have a problem with having too many ideas and it's just sitting quiet with all your ideas and seeing if one really just pulls you, like pulls your body. I think we're so up in our heads in all that we're doing, in our parenting and our business and everything, we're very cognitive, and it's just having a practice, having a way, my best ideas come to me in the shower, when I'm either on the exercise bike or I've just got off the exercise bike, I just need five minutes and I have to scribble stuff down because it's, I'm in my body, my body feels grounded and it's then what you pull towards and just pick one thing. I say this and feel a slight hypocrite because it's something I struggle with and I still, but it's the thing I'm always working on, which is like, I've got these three ideas and I have to keep coming back to pick one, pick one right now, and go with that. Because otherwise you are going to keep yourself in this kind of confused, I dunno which one to pick, I dunno which platform to pick. Do I do a course, do I do a membership, do I do this, do I do that? It's almost being able to just make the decision and stick to it because you'll learn your next step by taking your next step. And I think that's it. Messy action.

Yeah, I think that's so wise because it's so easy to get stuck in this paralysis place and everybody has a slightly different reason for their paralysis, but it all comes down to avoidance, essentially. We just don't want to feel something that is, you know, scary to us. But I think there's also something about space, like those ideas don't come when you're really overscheduled. You know, I was reading about over-scheduling children the other day, and I was just thinking the whole time, this is the same for adults. You know, when you are seeing clients back to back and then you are running off to do the school run, and then, you know, maybe you're squeezing another client in in the evening and then you are absolutely exhausted by the time you sit down on your sofa in the evening. Don't be surprised that you can't figure out how to grow your practice or you can't figure out, you know, how to make a bit more space in your calendar. You've got to the point where no creativity is going to come. For me, the creativity comes when there's a bit of blank space, and I think different brains need different amounts. For me, I need a day in the week where there's no calls and then ideas will come on that day. They won't come the rest of the time. I know other people, it works better to just have a few hours in between clients where they've got space. But I think get to know your brain, how it works for you, and create that space. And usually the only way to create that space is to delegate some stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. And delegate the stuff that you're either not good at or you just don't like doing, you know? Because then people will spend so long thinking, well what do I delegate to them? And that's why I say, what do you not like doing? What takes up your time? For me it's always come down to tech because that was always my excuse, well I don't know how to set that up and I don’t know how to do this. And actually probably deep down, I probably could figure it out, but one, I don't want to, and two, I don't have time. And so that was the thing. You are either going to spend your time or some money. Like those are the, that's the only way to kind of create the space. It's the same way about, people will ask me like, how do you build an audience? And I always say there's two ways, you can create content, of various types or ads or both. So it's time or money. And I think being surrounded by people who are also on a similar journey who get it, that you can bounce ideas off, but then take action, like just one small action. And I think we underestimate, well we overestimate what we can get done in a day. I always, I never get done what I planned in a day. But when you zoom out and look back, we underestimate what we can get done in say a month or two. And suddenly you look back and think, and I don't think we're very good at also looking at the progress that we've made. We're always raising the bar. And so I think that's also really, really important to think, take stock of what you have done, where you are, and then where you want to get to. And then what's my one step? So for me was hiring help in terms of tech, admin and because even though I actually quite like doing invoices, but it was taking me a huge amount of time to do it all with having the associate practice now, that I, you know, I offset a lot of that. But setting up landing pages, I like to create the content. It's my content, but then I have someone else make it look a bit pretty or, or just link all the stuff up. I write all of my emails, but I have somebody else input them into Kajabi because, and anytime I go in there and edit it, I have to text her and say, I'm so sorry, the format's gone wrong.

Oh, Kajabi's a nightmare. I don't use the email system in there because I can't, ah, I can’t touch it.

I just change one little word and the whole format will change and luckily my sort of assistant VA will kind of come along and fix it for me. But yeah, so, the tech is not my, it's not my strong point.

Yeah, and I think actually what you were saying about kind of reflecting on your progress regularly, that's also what makes it safe to delegate stuff. Because I think the fear around it, the reason our nervous systems are like, no, stay small, keep it all in your own kind of control, is that ultimately we're frightened that we will pay money and not get a result for it and therefore end up worse off. Whereas actually, the way to make that safe is to know what you can safely invest and lose for a month or two months. Then have really clear indicators of progress that you are tracking so that you know that the worst case scenario is that you lose, you know, one to three months of that investment and you don't get what you want. It's not going to go on all year because you are tracking it and you know what good looks like. So if you were delegating tech, you need to know how many hours of your time you were spending trying to figure that out before. And you probably need some measure of, you know, increased sales or conversions that will come off the back of your emails looking better, or your landing pages looking smart. And those two things will tell you, was this worth it?

I think one of the things that's really hard for human beings, myself included, is that we do want quick wins. And so there are some things where you can get a quick return, I think, on investment sometimes. But there are other things that you might not see that return for a few years or, you know, there are certain things that might, and I think that's it is, is having help to kind of look at your business and think, because for me, I know I can kind of turn the tap on and off with my one-to-one. I know it's quite a reliable source, but actually when I'm bringing out a new program, I don't really know. So, I mean, we could go off and talk about this, but you know, being able to put out beta programs, being able to put out something that isn't the polished product, I think is really important because sometimes we might have an idea, I want to create this thing, but does anybody else want it? Like, so, so kind of co-creating stuff I think is really important. You know, when I've put products out there, I mean, one of the biggest fears I hear as well in business, this isn't just for psychologists, but probably across the board, is, well, what if I put something out there and no one buys it? So my question back is, so what? You lick your wound, it's happened to us all. And then you, you look back and you think, okay. And often it's, you know, around, you know, correcting the messaging or thinking, actually, did I, you know, sometimes I then hear from people saying, well, I posted about it once and no one bought it. And actually, what people don't realise is, gosh, we need to be, we need to be posting about the things that we want to be putting out there so much so that you are so bored of yourself. Like, surely I can't say this anymore? And I think that's the thing that, I mean, I never realised was just how much you want to be talking about your stuff. And that's why picking something that you're so, so passionate about that you can talk about until you are bored, is so important. And what was the other thing I was going to say? I think just, oh, that was it. My worst fear of putting something out there, so when I first put out my first group coaching kind of program for parents, I was actually terrified that one person would buy it, because I can't exactly run a coaching group program with one person. What do you do? And then my coach just said to me, well, what would you do? What would you do, Jade? If one person buys, what would you do? I was like, I'd give her a really good service. She would have a really good one-to-one. I would run her through the program, I'd get hopefully an amazing testimonial, and then I'd go again. And she was like, okay, so go for it. And guess what? One person bought my group coaching program. It was like my worst nightmare coming true. Long story short, two days after cart had closed, somebody else bought, don't quite know how it all happened. Anyway, so I actually had two people. So I ran it, I ran it with two people. Did I make the return on my investment in that one program? Probably not. Did I learn loads about what I want to do, what I don't want to do, what I want to do next? Absolutely. So sometimes some of the lessons we get are priceless in some ways.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's really, really important. So I'm aware of our time, and that I've taken up loads of your time, but I just wanted to, you know, let people know where they can go and find out more about Permission to be Human because this sounds like something we'd probably all benefit from if we're parents and working as mental health professionals. So say a little bit about where we can go and find out more.

Absolutely. So, I mean, I'll make sure that you've got my links, Rosie, but my website, so it's just www.drjaderedfern.co.uk. There's lots of information on there. Permission to be Human, actually is a new service that I have, opened up spaces for this year. And as always, I'm behind with my admin and my tech, so it's not technically on my website yet. And, so I will make sure you have a link if people are interested in it, they can get in touch with me, via my website. They can get in touch with me via, I'm on Instagram, just again @drjaderedfern on Instagram, can always message me. There is a wait list because at the moment the two groups that I run, simultaneously, they are full, but spaces may open up, periods throughout the year. So I think the next time there might be spaces opening up will be September, but if they jump on the wait list, it'll be the wait list that are, the first can hear about it. But yeah, Permission to be Human is just a wonderful group. We meet monthly, and it's a reflective space for psychologists parents, and we talk about all about the pressures of how, the pressures we put on ourselves as psychologists. Like we should somehow know better when actually we are still struggling with, all of the same things. It's how can we create a compassionate space for ourselves to be human, and not constantly beating ourselves up.

I love that concept so much and I expect lots of people will want to go and check it out. So thank you so much for talking to us today, Jade. It has been fascinating and really personally helpful too.

You are so welcome. Thank you so much for having me.