Shownotes
When I first talked with Heidi Taylor about being a guest on the podcast, I initially expected to interview her about her specific niche as a consultant - how to use an intake form or questionnaire to pre-screen potential clients for your group coaching program. Clearly, this is something I am interested in learning before re-launching The Boss Up Breakthrough again, and I know it would be of value to my podcast listeners as well.
After we confirmed and started planning the episode, Heidi send me a Voxer message asking me about my Strengths Finder Top 5 and my enneagram number. After I shared my answers, Heidi told me she had an idea for the episode, but it would require a lot more vulnerability and courage, and once she explained what she had in mind, I knew I had to say yes. Here's why...
One of the most talked about episodes of The Driven Woman Entrepreneur Podcast is episode #125, "Lessons from a Failed Launch." The reason is simple. I pulled the plug on my group program launch this fall because I wasn't able to attract enough of my "perfect fit" clients to fill the group program and I simply wasn't willing to create a less-than-optimal experience for the people who signed up. And, then I talked about it openly and honestly on my podcast, to normalize failure and model making mistakes and learning from them.
Heidi's suggestion was this: instead of you interviewing me about my area of expertise, why don't we show your audience by letting me coach you, and sharing some of the tools I use in my consulting business, so I can help you figure out why you might not be attracting enough of the right people to your group program? Spoiler alert: THIS is why I recommend you listen to episode #125 either before or after listening to this one. The cool part is that while this is about me and my business, you will find the insights so relatable for you and your business, too.
If you have ever wondered why you are attracting people to your programs, but they might not be the ones that will get the best results working with you, you are going to want to pay close attention to this conversation between Heidi Taylor and me. I honestly had so many "mind-blown" moments that it literally made me re-think so many things I thought I knew and even rendered me temporarily speechless. If you know me even a little, you know how rare THAT is. So, grab your favorite beverage and be prepared to listen, learn and grow.
My key insight from this interview:
My strengths are 60% in the domain of Strategic Thinking and 40% in the domain of Influencing, so the best clients for me would be those whose strengths are in the areas of Relationship-Building and Executing. I have been marketing to and attracting my twins, but the clients who would get the most amazing results working with me would be my opposites.
Mic Drop Moment: Your screening process needs to uncover what excites and motivates your potential client.
Resources: Strengths Finder Top 5 Assessment: http://bit.ly/3VP4JVx (not an affiliate link)
Enneagram Descriptions: http://bit.ly/3OZWvaY (free resource)
Want to connect with our guest, Heidi Taylor? Let me show you how...
Website: https://www.heiditaylor.ca/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heidilistening/
VIP Day: https://www.heiditaylor.ca/intake-form-intensive
Heidi and I both work with female solopreneurs who have an online presence. One of the things our clients have in common is that in spite of our effort, there is often a gap between where they are and where they want to be in their business. Does this apply to you and do you know the cause? Take this quiz and get your personalized result, and what to do about it!
What’s Holding You Back?
It’s 4th Quarter, ladies. Do you know where your business is going to end up for the year?
For many solopreneurs, the last quarter of the year can feel like a scramble…throw together a Black Friday special, discount your fees because potential clients are thinking about their holiday budget, or just hunker down, serve your existing clients and try to reduce costs for the rest of the year? There is nothing wrong with doing any of these things, but they are tactics, not a strategy, and tactics might produce results, but it’s a crap shoot.
If you want to figure out what’s working and what isn’t before another year is over, here is the link to schedule your free, no-obligation consultation: https://bit.ly/3qrJ9YQ
Not quite ready to commit? I got you. Join The Driven Woman Entrepreneur Facebook Group by clicking the link right here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thedrivenwoman/
Hate Facebook but love Instagram? Follow me on Insta here: https://www.instagram.com/coachdiannwingert/
If you love and look forward to each episode of The Driven Woman Podcast, let me know by leaving a review! I’m not a mind reader and podcast reviews really do motivate me to keep creating content and connecting with incredible guests, like Heidi.
Transcripts
H: So if you have been along for the Driven Woman Entrepreneur ride as far back as, let's say, episode 125, the one that has gotten the most attention, I have to be honest, the one that's the most vulnerable, the one called Lessons from a Failed Launch and if you haven't listened yet after this, you should. My guest today is Heidi Taylor, someone who I have mad hair envy for and a complete fascination with what she does for a living. And that is this, for those of us who are experts who provide high touch services as coaches, consultants, service providers, getting our just right clients and customers to our door, is where Heidi excels. Now it's up to us to get them through the door and to know what to do with them once they're in the room with us. But Heidi helps people like me, and perhaps you get the right people to the door and pre-screens and qualifies them for us so that those painful sales conversations that should never happen actually don't, so Heidi, welcome.
G: Thank you for having me. I mean, I've been dying to have this conversation with you, so it's time.
H: And it's gonna be another vulnerable one, although I do not have any Kleenex handy so hopefully we won't go too deep. But actually, Heidi is here because when I reached out to her and asked her to become a guest, she came back to me with a suggestion for how we conduct this interview that I never would've thought of, and I was a little scared to say yes to, and that is she is going to use her brilliance to help me unpack why my recent group program launch failed. It wasn't a hundred percent a fail, I actually pulled the plug, but in case you haven't listened to episode 125 and have no intention to do so, I'm gonna give you the quick word on it. I wasn't able to go forward with this program because I wasn't able to get enough of the just right people to sign up at that time, and I don't have any intention to go back to bat again until speaking with Heidi because this is what she does and excels at, and she's really the singular sensation in this area. So I'm just gonna open myself up to whatever juicy goodness she has in store for me, because I know what's good for me is also good for you who are in this position. So Heidi, where shall we start?
G: Awesome Diann, I'm excited to do this with you. I'm gonna ask a lot of questions and really here's what I'm noticing about the clients that I work with, the entrepreneurs that we circle around, is that market research, right is the topic that everybody thinks they have the corner on, they've got it figured out. And I am here to say like, this is the thing that just lights me up so much is buyer behavior you know, who do we match up with? Who makes sense for us to work with why and how, what's the signal that we're putting out that is attracting the less than ideal people and how do we get to the bottom of that like, that is my job and I love it deeply. And so let's get to it with you because I wanna hear about the people that came, the characteristics, like what it was that had them be a no for you. But before you answer that question, I think I wanna give you some time to sort of think about that but also I wanted to, to just sort of like invite anybody listening in to think about when you look at the clients that you're currently working with, do you know there are enneagram type. Do you know their strengths finder top five? Do you know whether they're excellent at executing, taking action, influencing others?
Where are they the strongest when you're delivering your coaching, your whatever, whatever service you provide, how are your clients showing up for the work and what gets the work done on their end right? What excites them and motivates them to get that done because if you don't know the answers to those questions, you are just going to attract people who are willing to pay you and then once you get into the client relationship, that is when it gets really frustrating, you know, all of the things, right. That's when we realized, oh my goodness, I have just attracted my mother, my father, my ex boss all of the people that I have the hardest time, like getting to do anything you know, we've all had those clients. And so, just a quick little story about what really got me here is my own problem with who am I attracting, how are they working with me? What are their results right everybody, you know, we see all of the people all over the internet with their screenshots and they're bragging about the numbers that they're bringing in with their clients. And so everybody wants to know, like, I want clients who are gonna get results, but results look very different based on who you're working with and how they operate and so for me at the time, I was attracting people who were my strengths twin…
H: And what were you selling at the time because I don't know so much about your back star. I know that you are a life coach and a business coach, and I know there's a story before you came to what you do now, but I don't know so much about what you were actually marketing and selling at that time.
G: Yeah, so business and sales coaching, I started in life coaching way in the beginning, but once I realized, once I was in it, working with clients, helping them have sales conversations, work out their business model, I realized that I was attracting my strengths twin. Meaning they didn't have the exact strengths that I had, but we were in the same strengths domains. So, for me when I realized, okay, this is why it's not working, and I needed to start to attract people that had complimentary and opposite strengths to mine things really started to take off and be fantastic.
H: Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold the freaking phone. Okay screech, full stop. Okay every marketing guru out there, all the web celebs, all the big names, take people through the process of identifying your ideal client and how to find them, how to reach them, and how to accelerate the no like and trust factor. And most of the time, I've probably heard this from at least 10 big name web celebs, your ideal client is you, she or he is you. Like a few steps back in your journey that you will naturally attract and be attracted to people who are like you and you are uniquely qualified to help people who are like you because you already have a common language, common struggles, common personality traits. It sounds like, Heidi, what you're saying is that that is a recipe for struggle and missed opportunity, not to mention unfulfilled expectations, why?
G: Yeah. Yeah, it very much can be so there's truth in both of those angles. I can have strengths in one domain and attract either my twin or my complement and have lots in common with both, so don't get me wrong on that. Like have lots in common personally as a human being but in terms of how I approach my work, no, not necessarily, right? And so let me, I think…
H: Let's do a specific example, right?
G: Yeah okay. So when I look at your strengths, Diann, I'm gonna pull you into the fun here.
H: That's why we're here, baby.
G: So, your strengths are 60% of your strengths are in the strategic domain so meaning, so you are futuristic, strategic and ideation, those are all strategic strengths. 60% of what makes you, who you are and how you operate your style of work, what strengthens you is strategy. And then the other 40% is influencing and so what I'm so curious about for you, is you have no executing strengths and no relationship building strengths but that does not mean you're deficient. You're already like I'm resonating with this.
H: Well, I have been married three times, so perhaps I am deficient.
G: No, it doesn't mean that you're deficient right but what it means is and what I'm trying to get to the bottom of with you is does it make sense for you to attract twin strengths, people who are strengthened by strategy and influencing, or would you work better with people who are in the relationship building domain and who are good at executing and that's what we're here to figure out. Because when you lead, Diann, as I'm sure you know this, but you are a powerhouse in terms of like, you see a 30,000 foot view and for your ideal client or somebody who struggles to be your ideal client, that can either be amazing or incredibly frustrating, right?
H: Usually, I think it's a little intimidating because something I realize is that to be a good coach, consultant, strategist, it's not enough that they are impressed with you. They need to be impressed with themselves, they need to be able to believe that what you are teaching them or modeling for them, or evoking and inspiring in them is possible for them. So I think it's, I'm aware, in fact, when I first did the strengths finder assessment and I saw strategic, ideation, woo. Which is not woo woo by the way, woo stands for winning others over, significance and futuristic, and I got to know what each of those meant, I'm like, that is absolutely me and I can point to all the ways that shows up in my life. But then when I went to the chart where it says, oh, a hundred percent of your top five strengths are strategy and influence. There's nothing in relationship and there's nothing in implementation. I was not happy, I was not happy because I thought that meant I can't to be a leader. I can't build relationships with people and I can't implement. So, and again, there's like, what are there 32 or 34 strengths in the strengths finders? These are just the top five and I do like my strengths, but I think it's very possible that the people I'm attracting are either, as you say, twins who have those same strengths or they aspire to have those strengths, but they don't and no amount of time spent with me is gonna get them there either right?
G: That's right. That is right so what is your gut telling you as you're hearing me talk about that. I mean, we don't know until like, here's part of my work is like I'm pouring over who you've been working with, what they've been telling you, what their strengths are and making sense of all of that data. But I'm guessing in your gut, you know, the people who applied to be in your latest group program, what was it about them? What were they showing you that had you go, nope, that's just not gonna, that's not gonna work.
H: You're helping me realize a very, very important thing, what I have been looking, well, let me back up a little bit. I know you're aware of this, but I think for those that are new to the Driven Woman Entrepreneur podcast, they may not be aware. The first couple of years that I spent developing my coaching business, I was focused exclusively on leading women who had their own businesses, who identified with ADHD traits and I now believe that all entrepreneurs have these traits. In fact, I joked with one of my previous podcast guests, what do you call a person who is a quick thinker, a quick action taker, highly creative, has tons of ideas is better starting than finishing, has shiny object syndrome and has traits of procrastination, perfectionism, and people pleasing. They're like everybody I know so it's literally like if you are an entrepreneur, you have these traits now to have a diagnosis of ADHD, you have to have impairment as a result of the traits. So I realized that I do not need to be talking about ADHD, I need to be talking about the struggles of female entrepreneurs.
So I sort of dropped that languaging but my challenge in filling the group program is that I know quite a bit of my audience the people that subscribe to my email list, the people who know of me, the people who have hired me, a lot of them do identify with ADHD traits. And one of the issues with adhd, whether you think you have it, know you have it, suspect you have it, or never even heard of it, is that people with ADHD tend to have lots and lots and lots of ideas. But the rate of execution doesn't match up to their brilliance. And when I saw my strengths finder breakdown, I thought, well, that's why actually there's plenty of people who have the top five that I have who never even heard of ADHD so that that's not it like you can't have strengths in every area. But am I attracting people who, whether they identify with ADHD or not, their struggles in business are that they have tons of great ideas, but they're poor at executing and would I even be the right coach for someone like that because those are my struggles too.
G: Right, yep and so are you saying that that was what was showing up for you, those are the types of, yeah.
H: Well, two things, Heidi what I thought is, one is that I think there's still some confusion, and this is more of a rebranding issue, which I'm still in the midst of. I think there may be some confusion about how I help and who I help because of the ADHD influence and a lot of my past work. But also I realize that I kind of need the people I work with in a group program to be at a similar stage of business. And a similar stage of development of their entrepreneurial mindset and identity and that those were the distinguishing characteristics not anybody's individual personality that I didn't think I could work with is that I think. I don't know how long you've been self-employed, but I know that there are different stages that people go through and that if you wanna do really deep transformational work with people, you're probably not best suited to total newbies because they have a lot of needs and the kind of work that you're gonna wanna do is something that they won't be ready for until further down the road. But I don't do a strengths finder assessment on people prior to inviting them to work with me, and you're helping me realize that's probably not a bad idea, nor do I ask about their enneagram type.
G: Yeah, I ask for both on my intake form and not because I wanna pigeonhole anyone or reject anyone but it's as much for me as it is for my potential client because I wanna make sure we are going to work together and you're gonna get results based on how I know that I work. And so it just gives me a, it's not everything, but it gives me a lot of information. So, okay here's a fun way to think about this, we were talking ahead about like this, the Netflix show Dead to Me, right with Linda Cardellini and Christina Applegate. And so I want you to think about your strengths like Jen and Judy and so when you're attracting ideal clients, do you wanna, if you are a Jen, do you wanna be working with a lot of Jens? Which is what I hear you saying like, I had all the Jens coming to me who had all this strategy but maybe, and I don't know until we get going with more questions, but maybe it's the Judys who are you know, Judy is much more like, how does it feel and where are we going? And like, she needs direction and she needs strategy and she needs a thousand foot view at what's going on because she is in the weeds. And she's like, ah, right like she's just, so, I love this example for the strengths twins and the compliments, right? Do you wanna attract your twin? If you're a Jen, do you want another Jen? What kind of a client will perform and get results in such a way that really drives you to do your best work well, what do you think?
H: Yeah, I can tell you because a couple of one-on-one clients that I'm working with, who are getting outstanding results in their business, they are very happy working with me. One in particular, she has taken all the courses, participated in all the coaching programs, paid a few previous people. She has no shortage of information, she knows all kinds of things and she's also an ideator like myself. So she has a fucked ton of ideas, what she needed, and the reason why she hired me after listening to this podcast for a while was that I have the ability to sort through tons of information coming at me in real time and say this and that and this, and this is how we're gonna bring it together. And it's something I probably learned how to do in childhood, but I definitely made use of, in my former career as a therapist, I'm able to, detect, I don't know, sort of like, I think of it almost like panning for gold back in the gold rush days. Like, all kinds of sludge and water and mud and useless crap can go through my sieve, but I will catch the gold nuggets and help you make something out of them. She needed someone who had the ability to do that. She didn't need information, she didn't need a lot of managing of her implementation and execution. She needed someone who could take that high level view, help sort through all the stuff in her head and in her business, streamline it, simplify it, line it up and say, this is what we're gonna do first, and then this, and then this, and then this if you run into obstacles, let me know and it's been super exciting and fun to work with her in that way.
The other person I'm thinking about in response to this question has, a terrific business, but she's very idealistic. She is very driven to provide excellent service and she's a big old people pleaser. So she has equipped her business with a team of people who are just barely dialing it in. And she thought that she could inspire them and motivate them and literally love them so much and make working there such an awesome experience that they would step up and do their best and as a result, she's financially driven this business almost out of existence. So what I've helped her do is get comfortable with the role of being the actual boss, being the authority figure, and holding people to expectations and standards, communicating that clearly and being willing to act on consequences if they don't come up. And that was like almost like a personality transfusion for her, but I was connecting the dots to all of the places that her business was losing money because she wasn't the leader she needed to be. And she is strong in the relationship department, right, too strong in a way. She put so much emphasis on the relationships that she wasn't paying attention to the profit needs of the business.
G: Great, I love that you've identified that, because that's your complement, right? That's the Judy to your so my question is for you, as you think about your clients and the, and the other client, the first client you talked about it sounds like she was an executor and that was great for you, you loved that, whereas she maybe was also a Judy to your Jen cause she was able to execute. So for you it could very well be, and we're not gonna get to the bottom of all of this, in one short little podcast, but it could be that you need people who are, you know, in the relationship building domain cuz they struggle with boundaries. They need a strategy because they are wired to connect and they need a strategy for how to move the relationship through the connection and lead. They're not as strengthened by making decisions and leading, they're all about the connection right? So that sounds like a really great fit client for you, somebody that has those relationship building strengths. But tell me a little bit more about that first client, cuz it's not as clear to me. It sounds like she's an executor, which is a complement to you, meaning she's not your twin in that department. What else stands out about the way that she was able to take your insights and move them into action? How was she getting results, tell me more about that.
H: I'm gonna answer a slightly different question and if I don't reveal what you need to hear from me, maybe ask it of me in a slightly different way. Something you're helping me realize is that, I was a therapist for a lot of years. Therapy moves at a slow pace, it's really kind of an open ended journey that doesn't have a specific destination. And while I love process work and I love deeply transformational work and I learn to be very, very patient with people's growth, as a therapist, I reached a point where I didn't wanna move at that pace anymore. I wanted to help people get to specific destinations to have tangible results, and I wanted things to move much faster. So it was kind of for me more moving from my zone of excellence into my zone of genius, because I am not naturally a patient person. I want results, I want 'em now. I want 'em fast because I think, Hey, listen, you know, who has time to fuck around and do all this trial and error? If I can show you how to get there faster, why wouldn't you want to and I'm not talking about cutting corners or taking shortcuts.
I'm talking about being efficient and creating results and what I realized is, as much as I loved being a therapist and helping people heal and grow and change and evolve over time, what I love even more, and I think I'm actually better suited to, is helping people define the results they want to achieve. Help them create a strategy that works with their values and their expectations and their specific needs and goals, and then get there in as an efficient way as possible. So what actually excites me most about working with this client and, and I'm just now getting this, my brain is kind of fizzing and tingling a little bit. I'm realizing what makes my favorite clients, my favorite clients are not necessarily the ones who have the personality that I like the most, or who have that combination of witty banter and pure unbridled brilliance that I freaking love. The clients I actually enjoy the most are the ones who are the implementers, they are the executors. They actually need help sorting out the very good from the very best because they create lots and lots and lots of great ideas. But being able to say, what's the sheer winner here? Which is the most brilliant of all this brilliance?
People who have a hard time making decisions or evaluating good, better, best are great for me because I'm very decisive. I have a very clear idea, yes, this could work and we can do some this or that. Trial and error, we can test it but I think if we just set this aside for now and go in this direction, I think you're gonna get where you wanna go much faster. And the results will either fuel you to do more or convince you this is not it, in which case we can pivot. So I think I probably have not been as effective with the people who, like me, are ideators, but have trouble with execution because I didn't have a strength of my own to really draw from. I have strategies, I have habits, I have rituals and routines that I've learned to get myself to be a better implementer, but it is not a natural strength and I think when you're working from your natural strengths, you're going to get the best results wouldn't you agree?
G: Yeah, add 100%. I mean, and you add a partner who is strengthened in different ways and brings out things in you that you would know, you know what I mean? It's just this beautiful, like bouncing off of each other to get to the best place like that is, that's where we all wanna be when we hire a coach or a service provider, that's what we want is somebody to help us, like come alive and see the things that we can't see and take actions in ways that we never thought we would be able to do, but always wanted.
H: And so they're compatible, but not your twin.
G: You know what, like twins can work, I'm not saying that they can't.
H: How would that work though?
G: Well, you know what the thing is there, the likeness is because there are 34 domains, if you're not in the exact same, in which it's, I mean, there's so many configurations of your strengths. There's still lots of ways that you can get the best out of somebody, but when I'm thinking about, and like this is where, you know, it takes a lot more than just going, okay, well I don't think my twin is right for me. It's like digging into, well, why do you think that is. So for me, I realize that my twins were showing up and were not able to get the results that I was, they were moving incredibly slow and they were, because I, so I am 80% relationship building and 20% strategy. Which is probably surprising given how much I love data and like how to get people moving and all. And so I work best with people who are high in strategy and influencing cause my job is to help you take all of that massive strategy and turn it into a way to connect with your clients and how to talk to them and what do they need and what, do you know what I mean?
It's like this, I don't need to tell you what to do, I just need to help you connect with your buyers and find a way to put a sales process in place that slows you down a little bit and has them meet you right where they need to meet you. So, yeah, I mean, it's just such a fascinating area of like interest for me because I went through this, but also I am fascinated about why your clients are attracted to you and how you can market to them using your strengths to get the most ideal people who are going to execute, who maybe are these relationship builders that desperately need somebody with a very strong strategic approach that can help them make decisions like I wanna help someone in your situation, my clients take all harness that strategy so that they can attract the people with the right marketing language and the right sales process, and all of those strengths are gonna meet together and fire in this brilliant way.
H: This should probably be a little cringeworthy for me, but sometimes I have to be hit over the head with a blunt object before I realized something that then I realized why the F didn't you recognize that. The differentiators that I was looking at were where the person was in their stage of business and the type of results that they were looking to get. And I was making decisions about who I would accept into this program and who I wouldn't accept into the program based on getting enough people who were at a compatible stage of business we're looking for a certain type of help and who would play well with others. And what I'm recognizing even in our conversation so far, is that if the most important thing to me, and I would imagine to any strategist, coach, or consultant who's listening is not necessarily whether they are three years in business or five years in business, or 10 years or two months, but what are their strengths and where do they struggle? Because you could have a brand new baby entrepreneur and someone who's been in business for eight and a half years who have the exact same struggles because of their strengths and their limitations, and they would actually have more in common thank putting a bunch of people together who had same type of business or same amount of business experience, but who had widely different strengths and struggles. And what's cringeworthy about this Heidi, I was a freaking shrink. So you would think that I would be choosing people for this group based on psychometrics rather than demographics and yet I completely missed that.
G: Well, hey, like this is why we're having this conversation, Diann, because the internet is filled with the information that you were moving forward with, which is put people, nobody wants to be in a group with somebody that's not as far along as they are in their business.
H: It is the conventional wisdom.
G: Let's just call bullshit on that that's not the only way to put people together and in fact, you know, as you know, that's not necessarily it. It's so it keeps us on the surface of looking at the people who might be a fantastic fit for us when we get caught up in like the Kool-Aid that the internet is, you know, having us guzzle down. And so the fact that you've identified that, you know, like, oh my goodness, I think this is how I was looking at my, when we're service providers and we're launching a group program for the first time and we're looking at the intake information that comes in, I find that my clients cannot really struggle to detach from what they're seeing the intake answers to be and what they're making about making up about those answers.
H: You have to describe that a little bit more because I, let's talk about the process first. People like me, especially for one on one work, but I also did this for the group program. I have a process that I shared with you, they usually will hear me on a podcast interview, come over to the Driven Woman entrepreneur, binge through a few episodes, say, I think this is the person for me. They will book a consultation call, which is a 30 minute interview, but there are a series of questions they answer on what is essentially the intake form, but it's a screening form where I tell them the price, how long the program is, and get some information from them. It does not include asking about strengths finder or enneagram, but by the time I meet with them on the sales call, what I've attempted to do, and I don't even really call it a sales call, I call it a consultation. Because it's really an interview, it's not a sales call, my aim is not to sell somebody. My aim is to get to know someone and to make the determination am I the right person for the right reason at the right time and if it's not yes, like hell yes to all three, then it's a hard no for me, I will not invite them to become a client. But you're helping me understand that the questions that I'm asking in that screening questionnaire are probably not getting to the most important things for me to know about whether this person will have a good result working with me and that's frustrating for both of us.
G: Right but that's where the goal is, that really is where the goal is because then, so instead, I mean this is what I see people do with their intake questions, is they copy what everybody else is doing. I'm not saying you did that, but it's an afterthought. They're like, this is a job that needs to be done and I know once I meet with the person, I'll know, right? The questions don't matter that much and it's like, no, actually the questions how you think about how, how aware you are of how you work with people, your self awareness, your awareness of how, who gets the best results, who are your high performers when they work with you then you can start to craft an intake process and a sales process and a sales process that allows you to meet those right people and identify them and just go deeper in so many ways than if you're asking the questions that, that don't get to like, you know, how you perform in these kinds of environments and like, you know, what are your strengths and, oh, like, you know, for example, you know, the reason I care about enneagram, I can hear your enneagram seven, how you see the world through the lens of the seven, I should say, showing up very much because sevens are striving to be excited, and to me it sounds like excitement for you is people who execute and get results.
H: Indeed. Indeed. As a matter of fact, yes, I am striving to be excited and and I think it's really funny cuz I don't really think about it as striving, but you're right, I have a high need for stimulation. I have a high need for creativity. I have a high need for my curiosity to be evoked. I have a high need for movement and results and outcomes and I naturally am attracted to those things. So it's actually painful when I attract someone who's very earnest, who is a huge fan who really likes me, just thinks I'm the coolest thing and really wants to work with me, but I'm not able to help them get the desired results. And maybe not even know why, because the chemistry was so great and it does remind me of, as I've mentioned, I've been married more than once, and I think this is not so different from dating. I mean, you're literally right like you wanna help somebody get somewhere in life as a result of being involved with you. So whether you have a romantic partner, you want them to achieve security, stability, comfort, love, permanency, belonging, connection, you know, shared expenses, all of the benefits of being in a relationship and they're looking to you for those things to happen. And most people have no idea why their relationships don't work or fail to ever get lift off because we don't know what questions to ask from the get go. And I probably would guess that nobody in the dating world is asking about strengths finder and enneagram before they accept a date either.
G: I just, when I think about, you know, matching how do we match up with people and especially who we date and we marry it's often somebody who is not our twin. It's somebody who's opposite of us because it's exciting and it's different and you bring different things to the relationship and so this is very much like that. So people with the same enneagram type, the twins in the strength finder can absolutely work. This is what I'm really calling people's attention to is like, how do you know that a twin works and how do you know that a complement to your strengths work like, let's look at that. Let's make sure that's dialed in so that you are taught, you can use your strengths finder to, look at, okay, how do I market and speak to my twin or my complement, like my Jen or my Judy, right so that I'm getting into relationship with people who light me up. And you know it as a seven, your brain works at a lightning fast pace, ideas and curiosities and imagination and so no wonder you don't wanna pull someone along because you're so far ahead, you need somebody that can meet that energy.
H: Yes, and I joke that when people encounter each other in social situations, yeah, most people say, how are you, I say, what's new. Because I am interested in how they are, but I'm really interested in what's new because what's new is what they're excited about so they're going to bring more excitement to the conversation, which is gonna light me up. And I didn't even realize I was doing that until someone pointed it out so for those that are not familiar with the enneagram, let's have you share a little bit about what is the enneagram seven personality, what you notice about me that tells you I'm a seven, and then how would I use that to attract the right people?
G: So like I was saying, an enneagram seven are striving to be excited, excited about life, about the work that they're doing, about the connections that they're making, about what they see in the world about possibility and the challenge of the seven is that they're using all of that excitement to avoid any discomfort, difficult pain. And so for a seven, you know, they want to feel up, you want to feel excited and involved in what's going on. And so in terms of like why is that important to know for a potential client that you're bringing in, knowing their enneagram type, I mean, not everybody has to be an engram practitioner, know all the ins and outs of the Enneagram. But if you have a basic knowledge and you understand, okay, how does my, if I'm a seven, how does my enneagram seven work with somebody who is, so an enneagram seven is in the head space. How do they work with a heart centered person versus a body centered person. What does that look like for you and so I'm just a fan of tracking those things so that you can analyze and understand, okay, does this work for me?
Sometimes looking at who you're partnered up with and going, okay, why does that work like in marriage or however that looks for you. Why is that working for me and then you can look at, okay, why does that work with my clients? What are my parents’ enneagram types and you know, am I attracting people that are like my parents into my business. Does that work for me or doesn't it and it usually isn't a great combination that usually ends up in a lot of tears and frustration. So, you know, strengths finder is a little bit easier in a conversation like this to get into enneagram is like it's a pretty in depth tool. So unless you have an understanding of each type, it's better to have somebody else who does understand it help you assess why you know a seven and a four work, or a two and an eight or, you know what I mean? Like, all of that is sort of a deeper, richer conversation but I think I just wanna come back to like, what is the style that you, like? How do you, what's your working style? Who performs best when they're in your energy? Looking at those, sort of metrics, if you will, for how you get a good match client that's really, I think, where it's at in terms of like making sure.
So if if you're actually deciding, okay, if this person has the money to work with me, are they somebody that's gonna get the result that excites me and what does that look like if you understand that you're in good shape. But if you have no sense for what that really looks like, and, and to be honest, it takes a lot of flushing out. That's why I wanted to have this kind of conversation with you on the podcast because it just goes a lot deeper than saying, well, you need a strengths twin or a compliment. Like, it's just, there's so much more to it. So I'm wondering like if we, if we've come back to your two clients and we get a sense for, okay, who is your ideal fit person it sounds like you really, you need somebody's energy to match yours in terms of like, there's some intensity, some excitement and people who are going to execute. It sounds like you had a relationship builder that was willing to execute and you also had somebody who was like more of a natural executor can you think of any not right fit clients. And describe what wasn't working about that relationship and how, not necessarily like, how, how they were performing or underperforming that was not working for you.
H: I'm uncharacteristically speechless for a moment because I'm literally thinking back over different relationships that I've had and realizing at different points in time. I remember thinking, wow, I thought coaching was going to feel very different than therapy, but it doesn’t, and I actually made changes in my business based on that assumption. What didn't occur to me then that I'm recognizing now is that it feels very different when I'm working with a client who's able and willing to implement, because the work, when you're helping somebody, I love the strategy, right? When you're helping someone figure out the strategy and when they figured it out, they get excited and they're eager to implement. They're excited, I'm excited. They're creating deliverables, I'm excited. They feel the progress like that really lights me up versus the person who's as much of an ideator as I am who has as many creative ideas as I do and working with me, is actually just stimulating more ideas and more creativity, and more possibility and more potential, which then makes it more difficult for them to choose commit and execute. And yet at the time I loved working with those clients because it was super exciting and super stimulating for me to brainstorm with another ideator like that's my freaking sandbox.
That is so fun but once it's happened, and I've been very guilty of this as well, Heidi, the act of ideating, the act of creativity, the act of brainstorming and stimulating my mind, come up with all these wonderful ideas was so intrinsically satisfying. That I was completely satiated just by having had all those ideas, it's like I was stuffed to the gills with a really great meal and I then didn't feel any desire, any motivation, any drive to actually do something with it because I just got fully satisfied just thinking about it. And I realize that I have attracted other people like that at times, who we had these brilliant brainstorms that never went anywhere, and I remember feeling really confused because I love this person, they love me our meetings are brilliant. They are magical and then nothing happens between that call and the next call and I'm racking my brain like, why, why, why thinking, what am I doing wrong? Like, you know, the coaching engagement is ticking away and we're not really getting anywhere. Some of these people even gave me terrific testimonials cuz they think I'm the absolute shit. But I started getting frustrated if there weren't results and that is what differentiates what I do now from therapy. That the insistence and the focus and the expectation that there will be results because just getting together and creating magic, it's not enough for me anymore. It doesn't excite me, I wanna see something actually happen, not just feel good.
G: Yes, brilliant so a great intake form question or assessment question for you is something around that brainstorming piece versus executing what's been brainstormed. It's not even a word, but…
H: Let's make it one.
G: You wanna get down to, are you somebody that loves, that has all of the ideas and then do you have someone in place to help you execute, do you, are you, you know what I mean? You wanna ask that question that helps them articulate back to you what they're, how they deal with all of the ideas so that when you see that answer you go, oh, I need to ask them more about that. I need to get clear on like, we're not here just to do a brainstorming back and forth. Like for this work to be powerful for you, you need a way to implement it and if that's not something that you're strong in now, maybe we're not a good fit right? And to further that, somebody who is probably got input in their top five or intellectual are also not a good fit for you because they are busy journaling and meditating on their ideas and their thoughts, gathering and analyzing all of their thoughts and struggling to actually execute on those. So that's another good reason why just knowing somebody's top five and knowing how that looks in terms of performance is really powerful. It doesn't make them bad people, they're excellent, right? They're fantastic in their areas of strength, but when it meets up with yours, not so much. It's just, it's not going to get you the result that you clearly articulated just now. It's kind of exciting really.
H: It actually is, I'm thinking of a couple things. One is because I do love the brainstorming and there are people who want someone to brainstorm with because maybe they feel like the well has run dry. They're all out of fresh ideas. I could actually sell that as a one off service if I wanted to. I could actually offer that as literally brainstorm with me and create the conditions for that. It wouldn't lead to an ongoing engagement because, and then I wouldn't really have to do the same kind of screening because if that's what they need and that's what they want, it could literally be a one off thing. It would be fun, it would be exciting, and I wouldn't have to be concerned about whether they implement or not. And I also realize something else that comes up from this idea is I've been talking about, in fact, I just recorded an episode of the podcast about it, which I may have already come out by the time this airs about the difference between a strategist and a consultant and a coach, because I've been marketing myself as a coach, but it's really more accurate to say I'm a strategist. Because I am focused on the result and on the need to see the person get there.
G: Sorry to interrupt you, I'm thinking about the relationship builder who sees that you're a strategist, and it could be that using the word coach lands with them over a strategist, right? Like, I'm not saying don't hang your hat on strategist, I'm just saying like, look at, are you gonna decide to go after the twins of the complement and how you position yourself attract or repel them. If think about your client who is like really struggling to make hard decisions who was all about relationship, they might not in their before state, might not be attracted to a pure strategist. I don't know right, I would have to dig deeper with you versus…
H: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. I don't think there is a perfect term, that's not strategist is like, okay, so you have all these great ideas, let's figure out which one we're gonna build on. But I'm also a coach and former therapist, so I can predict the obstacles that we're going to encounter along the way and help you overcome them as they do. Pure strategist is not gonna be able to do that, isn't gonna wanna do it, that's outside their scope. I'm just thinking about all the ways that thinking from this perspective can change things for me now because it's not just about the intake questionnaire, it's literally what I talk about on this podcast, my website, my branding, what I call myself to be more and more and more accurate about who I am, what I do, and who is right to work with me.
G: Yeah, yeah, who does it make sense to gather and put into a container together and who is going to benefit and how and why and you know, and then what, once you have that group program, what is it that they need once they're in it to really, you know, be supported? How do they need you to show up? What do they need from you? What do you need from them? There's so much, like, there's so much, right?
H: It absolutely is and I know because we don't want this to be a three hour podcast, a lot of my people don't have the attention span for that. But here's what I'm thinking and if this is too big a question, we'll have you come back and address it another time. When you do this type of screening, when you really get accurate about who you are, how you work, and who you best are suited for, how different is that process when you are working with people individually versus collecting people and putting them in a group?
G: Yeah, there's a lot of similarities and really it's just a matter of like, how much data am I having to crush to get to know your ideal client? So if you, let's just say you have a membership group of 400 people, you know, I'm gonna wanna survey those 400 people and understand why they're there and if they're the right fit based on your strengths and their strengths and then how do we filter how do we get people to engage more or less? How do we invite better fit and encourage the ones that aren't such a great fit to like, move along. So when there's 400 people, there's a lot more you know, data for me to go through, for us to have conversations. But you're working with one-on-one clients and you're wanting to assess, okay, who do I wanna attract? It's not that it's necessarily less in depth, there's just less people and it's easier to hone in on, you know, who your fit is a bit, I don't even know if the word is faster, but it's just less volume of people and less to manage in terms of like, the looking at, okay, why do people, I mean, I love to survey your audience and say like, why did you buy, how did you find Diann? What made you buy, what was the language that she was using? So if you get all of that pre-purchase information along with then, once they're into the delivery, then you find out why it worked for them and where too, too far and deep into that.
H: But yeah, you can't be too nerdy for me when it comes to human behavior like there's no depth that is too deep. I mean, human, we both share the fascination with human behavior. Why people do what they do, this has been an endless interest of mine since I was a little kid. I don't think that will ever change and I think when you are in the business of wanting to serve people and lead people and help people achieve their goals, you owe it to them and to yourself to know that you're attracting the people that you are most uniquely qualified to help, because that makes your business successful, fun, you get referrals, you get testimonials you don't have to ask for, and you get the ultimate satisfaction of knowing, I am really freaking good at this and don't just listen to me here's all these other people who say the same thing. I don't know how you can do that consistently over time without knowing why they choose you and how to get better at only signaling those who will become your raving fans. It's super frustrating to start a relationship of any type for any amount of time when you don't have the assurance of a good outcome for both sides.
So what you do is so valuable, and you should, and if you can figure out here I am telling you what to do, I'm very bossy. I probably didn't need to tell you that at this point, but it's like, I'm just imagining the value of what you do for people who are hiring people to work with them or for them, and also as we've mentioned for dating, because you're literally casting people in important roles in your life and they need to fit.
G: I just am endlessly fascinated in particular around how people show up to buy something. So I don't so much wanna like work. I am fascinated by dating like but in my professional setting, I really want to help people understand, okay, your buyer, are they showing up and are you treating them like a transaction or is this a relationship and how they show up for that is gonna tell you a whole lot about how they're going to be once they pay you. And so anyway, that's a whole other conversation…
H: Well, the psychology of money and behavioral economics and all of this, it's like, this is really, really important stuff. So before we wrap, I need to know what your top five strengths finder themes are and your enneagram, cuz we most certainly will have another conversation at another time, so what are your top five?
G: Yeah, so my top five is empathy, relater, adaptability, ideation, and individualization. So I imagine just in that, I mean, I'm very much interested in each individual, how I'm relating to them, I'm adapting to what I'm seeing. I'm empathetic and I have really outside of the box ideas and thoughts, and that's where you and I the idea collide, we have that. So for me, it's important for me that I have people with those strategic strengths, it's a really wonderful match. So that is my top five strengths.
H: We're opposites with that one exception and it’s fascinating. I mean this is so completely different than what other marketing people are teaching about, like attracts like but sometimes we get someone who on the surface is actually so much like us that we can't help them because we have the same deficits they have.
G: Here's the differentiator for me, you and I actually have a lot in common, personally listening to your podcast. There's lots of things where I'm nodding and I'm like, wow, we have a lot in common. However, when it comes to our strengths, we're opposite. So as humans, we get along like a house on fire and our strengths help each other.
H: So, so good and what about enneagram?
G: Oh yes my enneagram type is, I'm a four wing three. I have a strong three wing, which I think is that entrepreneurial like spirit showing up. I'm an enneagram four for counter type of them.
H: Heidi, Heidi Taylor, you literally have blown my mind with this conversation because I have been attracting people that are like me and like me and yet sometimes struggle to get them results. And some of the people that have been the best clients are they like me, they're attracted to me, but not because we are the same, but because their struggles are in the areas of my strength which is how I can truly help them.
G: 100% and they have to be ready to step up and they have to be ready to step up and be under the fierce power that you are providing.
H: So I don't think I had a chance to tell you this before, but someone I did a consultation with, I asked her what she thought and she said, oh yeah, no, there's no way I could ever work with you. Interesting, would you care to share why, you're way too confident for me and I'm thinking, huh? I don't know what you were looking for in terms of a coach, but, okay I respect your decision and you're right about the stepping up part and why some people find someone with a powerful personality, intimidating and someone else finds them inspiring. Because if you're not willing to step up, it will feel intimidating, it will feel actually disempowering, which is the opposite of what we want.
G: I will tell you in early in my business, I hired my twins and suffered greatly, but I wasn't ready for my complement to give me that supercharge. You have to be ready, I was not ready for my compliment yet.
H: You know what, I already called this interview over, but now, now you have to answer that question. Because I think this is a mic drop moment, I know this before you even answer. How do you know when you're ready because I think most of the mistakes we make in hiring the wrong person and in accepting the wrong person as a client is because we don't realize we're not ready so how do you know when you're actually ready?
G: I think you have to be, for me, I had to be grounded enough to know that the strengths that somebody who was opposite of me was bringing, were not a criticism. I didn't need to take it personally, didn't get need to get all up in my feels, right? But what they were providing me was going to really power me forward if I could hear, if I was ready to hear what they had to say with an open mind, coachable, right? Sometimes, when I was early in my business, I was not ready for that. Now, I specifically use my courage to choose coaches and mentors and and therapists who are opposite of me. That's where I'm growing. I'm not growing when I'm choosing my twin, it feels more like a coddling or a friendship or that's who I wanna be in a coffee date with, you know, commiserating and sharing but if I really want to get a result, I need my compliment to come in and just like, blow my mind.
H: As you just did mine.
G: That's an honor.
H: Yeah. I literally, I'm actually speechless, which so rarely happens. I wanna treasure the moment and also just thank you so sincerely, because I knew this was gonna be a powerful conversation but I had no idea what you had in store for me and I'm so incredibly grateful. And you're not getting away, cuz there's more to come from this collaboration. I'm just amazed and I really need to noodle on this for a while because…
G: Yes, absolutely and I would say that for any client that I worked with, like that's part of it is like, there's a lot to take in and now it's like, chew on it, come back to me with what why this makes sense or doesn't make sense and it's not something that's like one and done in a moment. This is deeper work to really, you know, wrestle with again, are you ready, I had to wrestle with do I want coddling or do I want like, the hardcore hit me between the eyes, you know and that doesn't come with like quick.
H: No and I do think also, working with more experienced experts and entrepreneurs, you're probably gonna be more likely to find people who have tried other approaches, have maybe made a little progress, but they can't break out of a certain plateau. And you realize at some point it's actually more terrifying to stay where you are than to face the unknown and get a little bit uncomfortable. So I'm gonna end with that, I'm gonna thank you most sincerely for being my guest today. And please, before we say goodbye for now, tell everybody how they can find you on the interwebs and if there is one last thing that you want to offer or share or let people know about Heidi Taylor.
G: Well, my favorite place to hang out and to be in relationship and to learn about other people is Instagram. So my handle is Heidi listening @Heidilistening so DM me there, like I am in the DMs. I wanna talk to people, that is the place to find me, and then the last thing to share really is just I am so grateful, Diann, that you were so willing to come on this experiment with me and do a little bit of a real life example. And I think so many people, I wished I had this conversation 10 years ago when I was trying to figure all this stuff out. So I applaud you, for you were eager to do this, which you know, matches up with, you are a bold and courageous woman, and I applaud you. Thank you.
H: Thank you, friend.
