Devora Fish, the Founder and Chief Uplifter of Up In The Chair takes us through her 30 years of experience as an internship director and coordinator. She believed that these young people could give us so much more than we could ever imagine of their time, energy and knowledge…We just have to give them space for their skill-set and authentic voices to emerge. 

Don’t miss

• The backstory of Up In The Chair
• What Devora have learned from working with over 3000 interns 
• It's important to understand the context of the framing, because we are not just working in isolation, this is community and partnership
• The 4 Legs of the Chair
• The most common mistakes that entrepreneurs do when working with interns

About Devora Fish

Devora Yellin Fish brings over 30 years of experience as an internship director and coordinator. Devora worked at large universities, including the University of Texas in Austin as their Experiential Educator Exemplar overseeing more than 250 immersive and creative programs a year for over 10,000 students. She also brought her expertise to Vanderbilt University in Nashville, TN to partner with the Tennessee Holocaust Commission, managing intensive internship programs on and off-campus.

Devora has coordinated various apprenticeship and volunteer programs for a range of organizations specific to the arts, health, religion, technology, and more. Training, developing and mentoring more than 50 cohorts of interns that had teams upwards of 20 participants. Devora masterfully teaches how to generate a world-class Emerging Professional/Mentorship program that is a win-win for the visionary leader and the exploring emerging professional.  She received her Masters of Education from Lesley University in 1997 with majors in Experiential Education, Curriculum Development, and Educational Leadership.

Website: https://upinthechair.com

Email: connect@upinthechair.com

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Michelle Abraham - Podcast Producer, Host and International Speaker.

Michelle was speaking on stages about podcasting before most people knew what they were, she started a Vancouver based Podcasting Group in 2012 and has learned the ins and outs of the industry. Michelle helped create and launched over 30 Podcasts in 2018 and has gone on to launch over 200 shows in the last few years, She wants to launch YOURS in 2021!

14 years as an Entrepreneur and 8 years as a Mom has led her to a lifestyle shift, spending more time with family while running location independent online digital marketing business for the last 9 years. Michelle and her family have been living completely off the grid lakeside boat access for the last 4 years!

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Hello, hello amplify you Michelle Abraham your house. I'm here today with another grade as the expert interview today I have Devora Fish with me Devora. How are you?

I'm doing great here in Nashville, Tennessee at the up in the chair headquarters.

Awesome. Awesome. So as Devora just said she is the founder and chief uplifter at Up in The Chair, which we're going to dive all into in just a few minutes here. But I just wanted to share Devora is a friend of mine. And I'm so grateful to have met her recently this year. I think what she's doing is absolutely incredible. And I wanted to bring her here today because I know what she's offering. And what she does is so beneficial to us entrepreneurs, when we start doing our business, we all of a sudden became become the taskmaster master of many tasks that we should not have any business in. We were so many hats. And that prevents us from doing the things that we love most. So if you're sitting there listening today, you've been wanting to start a podcast, but you're having it because you get pulled in so many different directions. We'll let this be your your call to action today to get some help and doing the things that you're not meant to be doing in your business. And let's hear what Devorah has to say, really listen, because they're all about lifting up as visionary leaders who are out there making a big difference in the world. And I know that you so that's why divorce is here today to share all of her brilliance with you. And so Devorah let's start off with like, why up in the chair? Why did you start that? What was what did you see was missing out there? And that was this was so much needed?

Yes. So thank you for having me. And yes, I mean, this is a call a rally cry for visionary leaders, entrepreneurial visionary leaders. And the rally cry is stop to stop doing it alone. We are not meant to do it all ourselves. And that's just a global rally cry in my world, which is community partnerships, leveraging the unique contribution of individuals extending a hand to offer our gifts to somebody else. That's how we all get to win together. We get to celebrate, be seen known, heard and celebrated together. It's not an individual game. And I say game because I find it really, really fun and playful to get to be with other visionary leaders because we're really heart centered and we want to make a difference. And up in the chair was born during the pandemic. When I've been an educator for over 30 years I've worked at universities and nonprofits. And I've always been fortunate enough to be a part of a community. And I recognize that it's always better together. So when I became an entrepreneur on my own solopreneur mompreneur during COVID. It was because the program that I was facilitating at that time, was not going to be happening anymore. With older adults in public spaces. We're not doing that anymore. That was one of the projects I was working on. And what I missed most was community, truly coming together for a united project. So in especially family gatherings, and reunions and celebrations, and there's a tradition in my tradition, which is the Jewish tradition of milestone events, in particular coming of age ceremonies, or weddings, where we lift people up in the chair, we're celebrating them, and you were grabbing hands with each other everybody's dancing and going in and out of the circle to contribute their offer which is witnessing, observing, lifting, and the person up in the chair. They're beaming and smiling and laughing and everybody around them is getting that reflected back on them. So looking up at them, you two are being celebrated. And it's not about the person in the chair or even the Vision, in this case, it's it's part of a collective uplift. That when one person is lifted when when vision is lifted, that has a ripple effect, and we all get uplifted. So that's how this company started.

I love it. I love the backstory to it. I love that it comes from the Jewish tradition. I think that's so, so unique. And, you know, in a world right now, where collaboration and connection is so powerful, what you've put together here is really, it's really so valuable for us entrepreneurs who tend to do it alone and think we need to do it alone and be alone. And when really there's value and community is so much more so much more fun when you have friends and people helping you and supporting you in in being the best view and the best leader possible. So Devorah, your backgrounds in internship, but you were an internship director and coordinator at a university, which was the University of Texas, right? Yes. So Dad, I love how you brought that experience in a university setting then into your own business. So share with us like what exactly do you guys do up in the chair? And how do you support the entrepreneurs and the visionary leaders?

Yes. So my entire life, as an educator, I've worked with teams of young people, mostly, I've worked with my peers, of course, my colleagues, and most of the projects that I've done, and there have been 1000s have been successful as a result of the participation of the young people who are choosing to put themselves as part of that collaboration, bringing their creativity, their energy, all of that. So going out on my own something I discovered very quickly as an entrepreneur, which sounds like all of you out there, you know, are familiar with is that most people were working in isolation, and they were doing all of it themselves. And I couldn't believe it, actually, what is happening, why are people sitting by themselves and trying to do things like you said, at the beginning, have no business doing like they're paying for marketing classes to market, their company, I was like, I don't, I don't want to do that. I don't want to learn how to wait, I don't have to was my thought is I've had young people around me for years, they both teach me so I'm learning from them to learn circa 2008, Facebook, working with emerging professionals on a campus with interns, they were like you need to post on Facebook, on Facebook. And they taught me until I've learned how to do it through them. But they continue to have that cutting edge knowledge at a university and the enthusiasm, they're not tired. So they're pretty darn excited to contribute their knowledge and their skill set, especially for a purpose greater than themselves. So for my own company, which only started in January of last year, now this past January, when you're a GM, I had this idea. And I said, Well, why would I do it alone, I'm going to reach out to emerging professionals. Now, before anybody goes and tries to do this at home, it is not like, oh, yeah, a free help. I'm just gonna like hop through a shout out for people to come intern with me, there is a world of regulations and knowledge that you absolutely need to understand for the integrity of your company, and for the integrity and safety of the people that you are working with. So I've had 30 years of experience that I've brought into this and work with over 3000 interns in various settings. And what I also didn't know about internships, is that what they want so much, is also to be uplifted these young people to be seen, known, heard and celebrated, as do we. So there's a mentorship component, that I only work with people who are not just entrepreneurial, visionary leader, but really mentors at heart who have a certain amount of wisdom, and a willingness to be generous of spirit. Because these young people are going to give you so much more than you could ever imagine of their time and energy and knowledge. But the good news is we don't have to actually learn how to do anything else. We just have to be the kind of people who show up and give space for their voices, their authentic voices to emerge. So if you know how to do that, then this program is joyful, exhilarating, satisfying, so much more than what you even think is possible for the vision that you started with. It just becomes so rich and real.

Right? That's exciting. So what does that look like as far as like a term or project is it like by project base that you would then connect with you and you would help find interns for that? Project or is it like an ongoing thing for entrepreneurs and their businesses?

So we have a variety of offers because each entrepreneur is unique. Each has a vision. Each person has different needs, they have their skill sets, we really look first at what it what do you love to do? What are what do you love to do that you're really good at doing? What do you love to do? But you're not that good at what don't you love that you don't know how to do? You don't have time to do all of these things? And what are the projects? So we work at different levels with people some people are more of like do it yourselfer. So background also on me as an educator, my specialization is in multiple intelligences and learning styles. So I do that assessment with you to ensure that you're going to get the best service based on how you work best how you think and learn best. And that's a process to understand that because otherwise, just like many entrepreneurs who have spent a lot of money on all kinds of things in a cookie cutter style, only to discover that that's not really how they learn best or produce their best work. So we start with you, you're in the middle of all of this, and then develop your program around you. So like I said, some people are more do it yourselfers, right, I have an entire step by step program, if you want to, like take it and run with it and like implement, and we have people who do that. So successfully, it is outrageous what they produce, because they are really clear. They've maybe been in the corporate world, they're really good at like organization, and schedules and so forth. But for other people, there's more of that, do it alongside you. And do it. I never say like, do it for you, because I don't really believe in that. But there is definitely like more partnership, there are some things that I will do for you. But it's important that you understand the context the framing, because we are not just working in isolation. This is community and partnership. And we're working with emerging professionals, young people who are discovering newly who they are. So it is often based on projects that the entrepreneur brings. But sometimes their strategy that they want more support with that. And sometimes we based on your skill set, we might be your partner in curating the emerging professionals that are best match for your vision and your projects. And other times, there's just different pieces that you just want a need. Usually internships take place during a spring or a fall semester, and that we also have winter and summer intensives for interns, so you're getting a lot in a short amount of time, which is what can propel companies like mine, and I know, like those who want who participate with us to go very quickly in scaling. So in less than a year I've been able to monetize to be able to have that, following the visibility so that I have people to offer our services to

Yeah, so you're showing me a list of all the things that the insurance can do. And I'm sure it's like endless but in some of the main categories is like marketing support social media, administrative stuff, ah, are like oh my gosh, the list like seems endless of all the things and possibilities that you could do. So when you're working with thing, entrepreneur, you obviously what you just said, you kind of like look at all the different pieces of missing pieces that they need or projects are looking at, and then you pick like the top ones that are going to be the right fit to start with. And then you go forward with that.

Exactly. So I generally start people with, I asked them to look at sort of what are the top three things that if you could just turn that over, and it would make the biggest impact for your growth and to take your energy back from having, you know, been putting over and trying to sort that out? What would those things be? And it's different some people it's research. I love having research interns. And some research might include content, it researches, grants, research, his projects, research, his writing, and, you know, ecourses, finding credible sources, all of these kinds of things. Great do that. For a lot of people. It's technology, social media analytics. So pretty much any major on a campus is something based on your company might be useful. So part of my company up in the chair is a global movement. And we truly like we have people from all over the world that are part of this movement with schools and companies. So for me to bring on an intern who's doing international studies in international business, beyond amazing to have their perspective and their access to cutting edge Rules of communication and legal, like how do you do business in other countries and all that kind of thing? I don't know, I just want to include everybody from Uganda and from the Philippines like come on down. But I need to make sure that I'm doing it in a in an appropriate business format. So truly anything that you can imagine, is available, we've got student, a student right now, from one of four colleges in the world studying speculative design. What? So the fact that she's like dismantling our entire I say, the chair, taking it apart, leg by leg, not by naturally, then figure out how they all work together and how to make it stronger. For the long term. How beautiful is that?

How it's amazing. You're discussing earlier that how you have the chair has four, four legs to it, can you shared with us what the four legs mean?

Absolutely. So the global movement is one of them. And that's really our online space for people to uplift and be uplifted, uplift, recognizing, seeing, knowing, hearing, celebrating what I started at the beginning up in the chair, that you can lift up anybody it can be, you know, your grandmother, it can be your dog, it can be the company down the street that only employs people with differing abilities, like just go for it and share and uplift celebrations in your community. And that is a group on Facebook, of course, we have other handles, which I know you'll share with Twitter. And by the way, all interned on I take no credit other than my job, which is to empower them to be fully expressed. And they understand the mission and the vision of our company, and letting them run wild with creating content that works with our company. And it works because it's grown massively, to a private group of almost 2000 people in the community. So that's one the global movement. And this is really about creating a world of uplifters rather than anti hate, anti bullying, bullying, I'm going to be for something I'm going to be for community and inclusion and welcome. That's the next leg of the chair. We have I've been an event designer and a musical theater director. Also most of my life was great. Like since I was 14, so really like most of my life. And event inclusion has always been incredibly important to me such that each and every person in attendance gets to fully participate. So we have a program designed specifically for event professionals that can be meeting planners, wedding planners, reunion coordinators, you name it, too. And we we offer an educational program, very experiential, about what does it mean to ensure each and every person gets to fully participate? We're not just talking about differing abilities, people of different ethnicities, but included in language and socio economic and gender inclusion and energetic inclusion. So we touch on it in a way that you're not going to find this stuff in a classroom or on Google like this is immersive, experiential interactive. So that's the leg of the chair. And then we have this program that I've been referring to. It's called EMA, EMA, which is the emerging professional mentorship Alliance. Because it's a mutual aid, we are allies with one another to uplift each other. That's this program we've been talking about. And then we do have the Inspire leaders, it would for more personal, it's more consulting, and coaching. And that's a lot more on strategy, or people who are looking to start a global movement, or they're looking for a thought partnership and expertise in certain specific areas, but they're not really looking necessarily to bring on interns, but they do recognize the value of community of an ecosystem of support. So everybody who comes in whichever leg, you're drawn in by, you're part of a collective.

That's great. I love it. I love the word collective too, because it kind of brings everyone together in this like mutual kind of kind of understanding with the way of doing business and the way of being in the world. I think it's a great it's a great model to great model to follow. Word that I love dearly. I used to own a co working space, our tagline was create, connect, collaborate, and we're a part of a collective. Right? That's awesome. Devorah it's so interesting, what you've put together and the way that people are working with the Internet. And like you said, like their cutting edge they are in school. Are there some mistakes that you see entrepreneurs making out there that we can learn, learn from some of the things that you've seen in in ways that we can do better and working together with like an intern?

Well, when we've touched on that already, the primary mistake, and you know, there's never failure, just feedback. And doing it alone, seems to me to be the most common mistake that people think somehow that entrepreneur is, equals solo, solo burnaware. And even if you're the only one who is technically on staff or being paid, you know, we're earning that that's still like, that's a it's a, it's a mindset, of, of lack, rather than abundance. And what I know to be true is, there are many people who want to contribute and to participate. People who work with interns, and a lot of people have this. A mistake people may hate is I mentioned it before, thinking they knew what an internship is. They think they know who interns are, they think they know who the millennials or the next generation of that are. And, and so, there's misconceptions and myths, oh, they want to think they're entitled, oh, they're not going to show up, they're not going to produce great work, all of that kind of stuff. That sometimes happens, but that's in environments where that person isn't being called forth, to contribute at the level that they know themselves to be. And again, there are structures, there's design, there's theatrical direction, and direction. When you're working with a community or with a cohort, I, I only work in cohorts, all of our internship programs have starting out between three to five. So when you come and work with up in the chair and the IMA program, you will guaranteed have three to five emerging professionals based on your project and really like your bandwidth for what you're doing. The program is designed that ultimately, after three rounds, you will have the structures in place to probably have between 12 and 15. In terms that's what I have, which is how I'm able to scale as quickly as I am and not do the things that I don't want to do other than gentle, loving, then uplifting them, empowering them, asking the right questions for them, ensuring their partnerships with the universities, all the pieces that take years and years, but I'm here to like shortcut all that because it was it was really like breaking my heart and unacceptable to keep meeting entrepreneurs because I started hanging out in spaces with other people realizing that their vision wasn't getting anywhere, nobody could find them nobody. And they were so in the in the muck of the doing. They weren't getting to what brought them here in the first place. So if I don't get to wake up celebrating and acknowledging and playing and communit teasing, then I'm not then what was the point of starting, you know, bringing this vision forth. So that's what you get with us.

Galaga and then obviously, like you're not you're you also have the you are being the orchestrating of the interns. So it's not like you're coordinating with the interns yourself as the entrepreneur and then the university to like, you have a company like yours as the bridge, which then they get mentorship from you as well, you know, they're already going to be a lot higher, higher quality and, and more suited to the business that you're, you're bringing them to work in. And because of that, because of the structure that you have, the whole structure

is is designed with that supporting space in mind. So we have a private group for just the visionary leaders. We do a monthly gathering where there is the individual Ask Me Anything components and then places where people can put their questions and share resources with other businesses that have a big purpose so that we're not reinventing wheels. It's thought partnerships, accountability, I call them accountability buddies that are matched to also support one another's businesses. It's it's really just this incredible ecosystem, that when when you know what's right for you, it's an easy yes. If you're just like I'm tired of doing it alone. I I'm ready to be contributed to. I'm ready to just have my heart be enough, not like have to keep learning and doing more. But rather just give yourself like what's already there, that's more than enough. And then this is like, this is the place to do it, I have not seen anything else like it, which is why I started this leg of the chair because it was needed, it's missing. And I don't want to do it alone, either I like to play, I like to meet people like you. And to go, Oh, yay, what do we want to create together. And that's right now for us, it was just here some way that maybe I can contribute to your community of podcasters. Because I get it, you've got a voice that needs to be heard in the world and topics and thoughts that only you are able to evoke the essence from your guests or from your own heart on your sleeve out into the world. So I'm inviting you to stop trying to do all the other pieces. And actually, it's a gift to the young person who wants to put their unique contribution into a real world experience. And in a safe space where they are going to be celebrated. And it's okay to learn as they go. And they get to offer you they get to also be the teacher because this this is a mutual benefit. Yeah, that's great.

What's been the best thing that's come out of your from a success story from your business so far, I'm sure that

it makes me it makes right it's like the ghost once makes me cry, because I do have I have four children, and the youngest started college this last year. And you know, I've given my I love being a mom, I have given myself fully to that they're all very grateful that I have lots of other people to now put so much energy into. So it really is like being on the journey with and being able to give all of the love that I have also to these young people who for many of their first generation college students, or they don't necessarily have a parent in their life, or a mentor, who is a stand for they're having a life that they love. Thinking about things differently, not just what's been indoctrinated upon them for years, but to and then to see that transformation like light in their eye or like, I never thought of it like that what you mean, I could do what I love to do and make money, what I could do that to wait, I don't have to contort myself to fit in to somebody's idea of who they think I'm supposed to be in this company, but rather get clarity around who I am and what matters to me and then be selective about who I'm going to work for or with. And then to watch them now in such a short amount of time because I've been doing it now, in this sense, but for years and years, but in this company, to see them gain confidence and go out and get jobs that are aligned with their values. We are intervening in a world where now 30 years later, they're not going to be burned out wondering why do they if it's going to this career to begin with. So I'm watching them have massive growth in the areas of confidence, and joy, and getting and building relationships based on trust within the ecosystem. And then I'm in the same thing for the visionary leaders like to see their vision actually come to life that they've been working on literally people who had books on their hearts and in their minds for 20 years, but didn't want to do all the stuff they wanted to write. They wanted to get their thought. But those books are now published and out in the visibility and people who've had magazines so and diabetes, reverse diabetes is now like hosting tons of classes. And but that's because they're interns were able to set up the infrastructure, the systems for them to show the leader, visionary to show up and give their knowledge as a 30 years as a nurse and holistic practitioner out into the world. So now I know that like what I my purpose of uplifting people is being fulfilled because all that goodness is actually now alive, out in the world making a difference. And that can't happen if you're trying to figure out how to use Facebook or, or a CRM and many of us didn't even know what a CRM was until we started our own companies. It's a customer relationship management. I had to learn that within this last year. So so that's the beauty that is the ripple effect is massive.

I can imagine those university students that like now they're not gonna have to wait till their 40s or 50s to like, then figure out that they want to go to a career they love or the life they're not living the life they love to learn that right from that young age is so impactful. That's going to be huge. huge difference for them. That's amazing. It's

it's part of the vetting, just as I said before, as a mom, I'm really clear that I would only work with people that I would trust with my own children. Right? That's like, that's a pretty big commitment on my part. So you what you, you, and anybody who's listening knows is that I'm here right alongside you that you're not going to do it alone. If there's a bump, a challenge, something that happens in for you or for the young person, my commitment is to hold hands with you to work through that because I'm committed, that the young person is cared for, and uplifted in a way that is appropriate for an emerging professional generally, between 18 and 25 years old. And for you as a visionary leader, because what I want is a world where all of my children on all of these, who I consider in many ways, the global my children get to live into. So you're not doing it alone. And I have an incredible team of my own trusted partners that are right alongside me. So I don't, I never work in isolation, either. I have phenomenal teammates that share my commitment.

That's awesome. I love it. So before before we let you go and wrap up this interview, any last words for our entrepreneurs out there that are struggling at the moment and just need to a little bit more encouragement to do something?

Yeah, you're like this close? Okay, don't stop. Because what you have to offer her the world, your voice, and the people that engage with you, the world needs to hear it, it's going to make a difference for somebody, it could save somebody's life, it could transform the trajectory of their life, how they view themselves, how they engage with other people in the world. And we need that more than ever. And I believe that podcasts have had an enormous contribution to the social network of people who have felt isolated, and to be seen to be understood in a way that is really unique to our times. So please don't stop. And the only thing I will tell you to stop is doing it alone.

Right? No more no deal alone anymore. It's no fun. And it's hard and boring, and is lonely. So yeah, that's what

you don't really just reach out to me, I'm totally available for whether it's the, you know, a call, we can just hop on a call have a conversation, you can certainly email me. And let's just look together at what would make it better. And if it's if we're meant to hold hands and skip along and join in this community together, then that's what will happen. And if not, I'm going to wish you well and leave you better than how I found you.

Oh, it's not great. And the barware? What is the best websites for people to reach out to you through or connect with you?

Yeah. So upinthechair.com. And actually, we have emerging professionals who are deconstructing and reconstructing the website as we speak. However, what you want to look for is a tab that says visionary leaders are for visionary leaders. If you go on there, there's actually an interest Forum. I'm quite certain that that's still up. And if for any reason, there's a disk can't find a way through there, then you can email me directly. And the best actual email for that is connect@upinthechair.com.