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Grief, Loss & Parenting // with Shameka Williams
Episode 58 • 3rd December 2023 • Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them • Carmelita Tiu
00:00:00 00:27:45

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Grief is not exclusive to death. Guest Shameka Williams, founder of Those Without Mothers, and From Grief to Love, shares her journey with grief and the lessons she learned, including:

  • Giving yourself permission to grieve
  • How grief, loss, transition intertwine
  • What can happen if we don't process our grief
  • The difference between processing feelings and stewing in them
  • How grief is like a weed

To learn more about Shameka, visit www.thosewithoutmothers.com, or find her on Instagram @shamekaspeaks, @thosewithoutmothers, @thebipolarpodcast, and @fromgriefwithlove.

About Your Host, Carmelita / Cat / Millie Tiu

Mom, spouse, coach, podcaster, wordsmith, legal eagle.  Endlessly curious about how we can show up better for ourselves – because when we do that, we also show up better for our kids and those around us.  Visit carmelitatiu.com to learn more about Cat, and for info on 1:1 coaching, the mom collective, and her monthly newsletter.

Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them

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Transcripts

Shameka Williams:

You're going to have to feel the feelings.

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:

And most of us don't want

to do that because it hurts.

3

:

Grief will wait for you.

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:

Loss will wait for you.

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:

It will be on the sidelines until

you're ready to deal with it.

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:

But the longer you take to deal

with the issues, the more it'll

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have an effect on you as a person.

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:

Hello, all I'm Carmelita too.

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:

And welcome to season three of know them.

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:

Be them.

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Raise them.

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Uh, show to help busy, mindful growth

oriented moms stay informed and inspired.

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As they navigate their daughters,

tween and teen years So during

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this break between seasons

two and three, I've been busy.

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A good chunk of my busy-ness was

related to building my coaching

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skills and practice and making

progress towards my ICF accreditation.

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So proud of myself for that.

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Um, I also continue to work on a

community for moms and podcast listeners.

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That vision continues to

evolve in exciting ways.

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And to stay in the know and get

updates or if you're curious about

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coaching, head to knowberaisethem.com.

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Uh, you can sign up for my

newsletter there and you can follow

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@knowberaisethem on Instagram.

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And now let's move on to the episode.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:

Today's guest is Shemeka Williams.

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After openly dealing with the loss

of her mother, Shemeka realized that

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many others needed support and help

dealing with this life changing loss.

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Being impactful and speaking life into the

world became a personal mission for her.

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And she founded the organization,

Those Without Mothers.

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She's also a motivational speaker

who has traveled to various colleges,

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spreading the word about the importance

of caring for one's mental health.

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She realized there was a major

deficit in the mental health

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field that centered around grief,

specifically losing a parent.

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Determined to help fill the gap.

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She has continued to present many

tools and resources to members of that

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community that need a helping hand.

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Although Shemeka has helped those in

her community, she's determined to aid

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those around the world with processing

their grief in a healthy manner.

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Her purpose is her passion.

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And her goal is to make sure

no one has to grieve alone.

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Here's our conversation.

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Hi, Shameka.

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Thank you for joining me.

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Shameka Williams: Yes,

I'm so excited to be here.

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Thank you for having me.

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It is a pleasure to meet

you and be on your platform.

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Absolutely.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I just

wish the listeners could bask in the

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warmth and energy that you exude.

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I can see it through the camera.

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Of course, podcasts

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Shameka Williams: you.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:

not being a visual, medium.

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The listeners may not enjoy

that, but I'm just thrilled to

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be sharing space with you today.

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Shameka Williams: Oh, thank you.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: So I'd love

to hear a little bit about how you got

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your start doing the work that you do.

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Shameka Williams: Yeah.

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So I, I got my start initially when my

mother passed away, my mother passed

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away about I want to say 13 years ago.

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And when my mom passed away,

I went through a season of

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very destructive behaviors.

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You know, there was addictions, there

were things that I was trying to do

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to fill the hole that my mother left.

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And so.

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Coming from that I learned that

there were so many people who were

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like me who didn't have any support.

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they didn't know how

to navigate this space.

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And, you know, thank God I was able

to kind of get the therapy I needed

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and get the help that I needed.

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But one of the things that really

helped me was, although I love therapy

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I found a grief coach and the difference

was that they guide you, right?

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I think therapy is amazing, but I needed

somebody that could walk me day by day

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through what I needed to do to kind

of navigate this newness in my space.

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And because of that I've realized

that, you know, grief is not

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a one size fits all, right?

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There are different methods

for different people.

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And so, you know, that's

kind of where I came from.

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And then as time went on, so

many other people that I love

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were losing their mothers.

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And I created kind of like

a private thing for us.

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Like, okay, well, we'll

just support one another.

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But then it was kind of like, no, you

can't just do it for a private group.

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We need to do this publicly.

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there are way more people that need the

support than the people that you know.

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And so from that day forward when, you

know, God kind of dropped it in my spirit,

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I, I left it and I was like, all right,

well, this is what we're going to do.

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And you know, I've been

doing it ever since.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I, I love

how you took your awareness of your

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emotional space and shared that with

others, you and, and took action.

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I think a lot of times we folks may

see commonalities with other people.

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and it may stay there, but your

calling clearly was to move forward

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and provide support with a broader

audience, a broader community.

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And really helping to process

those tough times, and turning your

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grief into a catalyst for growth.

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Shameka Williams: Definitely.

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You can either let it make you bitter

or you can let it make you better.

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for me for a while it did make me bitter.

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Right.

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But I realized that I wasn't hurting

anyone but me and that is absolutely

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not how my mother raised me or how

she would have wanted me to live.

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And so I had to stay firm in the fact

that I knew better and I could do better.

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And kind of just how I move

forward to help myself grow and

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move through those, you know, art.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

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Well, I love that phrase you

just said about you can be

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bitter or you can be better.

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you know, when thinking about grief,

something that I know you and I are

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kind of curious about and can chat about

today is this idea to have grief, really

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applying to loss in a number of contexts,

whether it's loss of an identity,

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loss of your particular dream, etc.

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Shameka Williams: Mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: kind of coping

with grief in other contexts as well.

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Just speaking from personal experience.

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I know that letting go of

these preconceived notions

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you might have for your kids.

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That's something that a number of moms

and I have talked about on occasion,

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these, these tiny goodbyes as they

grow into their own people, and the

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complexities that come with that, you

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know,

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audioShamekaWilliams11486949567: yeah,

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Shameka Williams: I think that

you put it so well, right?

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You said that you don't

expect these things, right?

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You don't.

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And sometimes you get disappointed based

off of your own expectations, right?

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So grief is not exclusive to that.

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It is just exclusive to those things

that we lose and that can be yourself

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that can, we lose ourselves when we

became, when we become a mom, right?

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And.

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We oftentimes try to get back to that

person when we will never be the person

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that we were before we had children.

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And sometimes when we have those

expectations that, hey, I'll

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go back to be this person when

they're grown up is unrealistic.

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And then it caused this, this kind

of condemnation on ourselves, like,

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Oh, well, you know, I did bad.

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I didn't do this.

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No, it's not that you just you'd

never be that person again.

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And I'm big on transition.

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Right.

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Grief is about transition.

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And in order for you to be able

to transition into any space, into

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any time period in your life, you

have to be able to adapt to change.

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And one of the things that

human beings in general struggle

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with is adapting to change.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm, mm,

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Shameka Williams: and so what I've learned

in my space is that my son is 16, right?

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And soon he'll be out the house.

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And he, he used to be a mama's boy,

but now I don't even know, you know,

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I see him when I see him, he lived with

me, but you know, they do their thing.

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One thing that I, I realize

is that me holding on to him.

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It's not gonna help him.

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It's not.

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It's not gonna help

him be a better person.

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There are certain, and I had to, like,

really talk to some wise people who

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said, you being super strict or you

want him in your sight every second

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of every day, it's not helping him.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: mm,

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Shameka Williams: Not just

that, it's not helping me.

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Because oftentimes we leave,

when we become mom, we lose

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our dreams, our aspirations.

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When really, in reality, we need to

be able to show our children that you

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can be a mom and still have a life.

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You can be a mom and still take care

of yourself because if you're a mom

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and you're not taking care of yourself,

everything else fall , everything else.

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And so we have to learn to take

care of ourselves and your identity

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has to be bigger than your child.

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And I know for some

people that's like, Oh,

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: mm,

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Shameka Williams: no, your identity has

to meet when people ask you who you are.

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It has to be more than

just, well, I'm a mom.

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Okay.

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And because what happens is then

when you're not that, that mom.

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In the forefront, you

don't know who you are.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: right.

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Shameka Williams: And so it's so

important to hold on to pieces of who

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we are, what we like, what we don't

like in the midst of being a great mom.

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we have to stop placing these

expectations on us because unmet

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expectations equals disappointment.

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And so we just have to allow

ourselves to be who we need to be.

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And it's going to take

time to get a balance.

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But just trying to figure it out is

better than, you know, just sitting in

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it and just saying, well, this, this is

all I am because not way more than that.

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Way more.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

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And it's so true how when you become a

mom, especially when they're little, and

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I think it's, it's sort of endemic to

the, the act of raising an infant and a

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toddler, like they need you for so much.

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And if that becomes your sole

identity, it is a bit dangerous.

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Because once they start becoming

independent, becoming their own

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people, it, yeah, that, that sense

of who am I, how do I function?

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I can imagine it manifests

in different ways.

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Like you might want to control things

more than you should, or you might.

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Like you were saying, you just sort of

lose the sense of who you are and then, I,

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I am a huge believer in, you know, what's

good for you as a mother is ultimately

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what's good for your kids as well.

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So if that means self care, if that

means pursuing your own dreams, even

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in baby steps showing up in that way

for yourself will ultimately also

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help your kids become better people.

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Shameka Williams: Yeah.

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And I think it's also especially

because our children watch us.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yes.

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Shameka Williams: They

are, they are sponges.

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I people all the time, if you don't teach

your children, how to deal with trouble,

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they are going to figure it out on their

own and sometimes not in the best ways,

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: mm, mm hmm,

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Shameka Williams: so they need to

see you going after your dreams.

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They need to see you doing self care and

taking time away from them for yourself,

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because then when they get older, they

realize it's okay for me to prioritize me.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:

hundred percent, yep,

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Shameka Williams: Right, because

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audioShamekaWilliams11486949567: I

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: they to see

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Shameka Williams: I, I've seen so many

kids like, well, I, I'm not gonna cry.

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I'm not gonna, because I watched

my mother be a superwoman.

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She never cried.

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She never did.

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And we're, in reality,

that's, that's not good.

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That's not good.

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So we need to be able to show our

children real emotions and what

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really is happening, you know?

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And it's necessary.

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It's necessary for growth

for them and for you.

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Yeah,

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And on

that point about showing emotions,

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you know, it brings me back to grief.

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And when we experience grief, whether

it be through loss of an opportunity

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loss of a friendship, you know, what

would you say are kind of the top

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things to keep in mind or tips for

navigating those sorrowful moments?

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How do we move from that

bitter place to a better place?

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Mm.

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Mm hmm.

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Shameka Williams: I think one of

the main things is processing it.

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And allowing yourself to sit with it.

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So often we live in a

microwave society now.

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And so everything is supposed to be fast.

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Like, I'm gonna heal fast.

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As long, as long as I just

be like, okay, it happened.

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No, you're gonna have to process it.

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You're going to have to feel the feelings.

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And most of us don't want

to do that because it hurts.

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Grief will wait for you.

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Loss will wait for you.

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So it will be on the sidelines

until you're ready to deal with it.

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But the longer you take to deal

with the issues, the more it'll

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have an effect on you as a person.

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And so if you can sit down and say,

hey, This is what hurt me, but also

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in every loss, there is a lesson.

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So a lot of times, one of my main

things I tell people in my grief support

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group is, Hey, you have to find out

what the lesson is, even in this loss.

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if you don't, what happens

is you will repeat the same

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behaviors when you lose again.

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Loss is inevitable.

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You know, they taxes and death is the most

sure thing, but loss is a sure thing too.

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Right.

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You're going to lose throughout your life.

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So if you can kind of figure out,

Hey, when I lose, I need to process my

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feelings, but then also use every tip

-adapting to change, sitting through

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it, and then allowing ourselves to learn

the lessons that need to be taught.

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Those things alone can not only help

you in your situation, but it can

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also help you to teach your children

how to navigate their own trouble.

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Because a lot of times, you know,

especially in the younger generation

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now we're using alcohol and drugs and,

know, we're trying to fill spaces.

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Right.

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A lot of unhealthy relationships, and

this is something that I experienced.

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A lot of my unhealthiest relationships

were because I was trying to fill

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a spot for something that I lost.

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And because of that, it was destructive.

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It was toxic.

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But if had I been able to sit with

what happened and be able to take the

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lessons from it and grow from it, I

probably would be much better off,

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and that that's my suggestion.

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You have to sit with it, even if you have

to say, Hey, I need to take two days.

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Cry for one day and then figure out,

you know, my feelings the next day.

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That's fine, too.

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fine, too.

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You know, so.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:

In terms of processing, you

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know, that resonates with me.

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This idea of you have to figure

out, like, take some time to

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analyze, feeling the feelings and

addressing what's my takeaway here?

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Yeah.

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Cause you know, I I've heard it

said that we gravitate towards what

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our nervous system thinks is safe.

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audioShamekaWilliams11486949567: Mm hmm.

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Mm

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And

sometimes just because it's what we're

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familiar with, the familiar feels safe.

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And if our familiar is negative or toxic

or, you know, not necessarily good for

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us, that we'll continue those patterns

because they're quote unquote safe.

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But like you were saying, if we learn

from it, then we can take action

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to move through the discomfort,

to use that grief to propel you

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towards something, towards growth.

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So, you know, you, you sort of set up

this example of feeling the feelings,

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and sitting with it, and then kind of

moving forward, how does someone know

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whether they're processing or stewing?

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That's something that I think people,

myself included, sometimes grapple

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with, especially when I look at my

kids, I think, you know, are they

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still processing or are they stewing?

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Shameka Williams: Yeah, if they, you

know, I think when we're processing,

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sometimes, you know, we're kind of

in an out of body experience, right?

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I think sometimes we're really

thinking about the entire

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situation, the entire circumstance.

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And we're really trying to process

What happened and why it happened.

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One of the things that

humans need is a why.

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I have no idea,

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When somebody dies, they'd be like,

all right, well, tell me how they died

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because they want to know why they

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audioShamekaWilliams11486949567:

died, right?

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Shameka Williams: Because we want

to find something to identify with

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and say, oh, okay, well, they died

because they had a heart attack.

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Well, I didn't have a heart

attack, so I'll be okay.

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if it's else, then maybe I

should go get my blood work

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done because they died this way.

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We, that's, that's how

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audioCarmelita(Cat)Ti21486949567: It's

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: so true.

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I think about relationships and breakups.

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People wanna know, why did you And then

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audioShamekaWilliams11486949567: Exactly.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: to learn.

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Yep.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Mm-hmm.

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Shameka Williams: So the thing

about it is if you're processing,

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you're thinking about how it's

going to affect your future.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm-hmm.

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Shameka Williams: If stewing, it,

oftentimes it's just like you're

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sitting there, you're processing

it, but you still are not over the

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hump of understanding what happened.

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You're still like, yeah, well, maybe in

another world, it could be this way, like,

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you're, you're still negotiating with

yourself about what's happening and, and,

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how things could have been different.

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Whereas when you're processing,

you understand that it happened

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right.

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Shameka Williams: you know, you're

like, okay, it's, it's done.

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It's, it's the end.

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Right.

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Whereas stewing sometimes you

go back and forth with yourself.

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It's this bargaining chip.

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Like, well, maybe if I did this

or no, so that's the difference.

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The difference is you knowing it's an end

and the other is I'm bargaining that it

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might not be the end or it could be that.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

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What, what I'm hearing you say

is basically acceptance, right?

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Where stewing is this refusal to

accept that this is an end, that this

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is something to move forward from.

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Whereas processing is sort

of looking at it for what it

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was and choosing to move on.

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Hmm.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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That makes

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a

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Shameka Williams: it's not neither.

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Neither one is easy.

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I'm not, I say it like,

yeah, just process.

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No, it's hard.

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It's hard.

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It's very hard, but it's necessary

for you to grow and I am one of

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those people that definitely believes

everything happens for a reason.

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So there's something that is preparing you

even with this situation as you process

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to go to the next level in your life,

to go to the next level in your purpose.

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And so it was a lesson that you

had to learn so that you could be

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better prepared for the next lesson.

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That's why it's so necessary to process.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

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And ─┅┅ you know, what you were

saying about people being wired

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to want a why, you know, wanting

an explanation that makes sense.

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We want, we want things to make sense.

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So often we don't have that, right?

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Like whether it's loss, unexpected loss,

why that person or in a relationship, why,

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why did this person make that decision?

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Like what?

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Yeah.

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So understanding that part of that

processing is just accepting and

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moving on I can see how that's so

pivotal and important to really

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reaching that place of growth.

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Yeah.

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Shameka Williams: Definitely.

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It's, it's necessary and it's vital

in order for you to really be able to

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say, Okay, I'm moving through this.

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And

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm.

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Shameka Williams: going to

get through this, right.

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Because otherwise you'll be stagnant.

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And the longer you're stagnant, the

more things pile on top of it, you

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know, becomes complicated grief,

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And complicated grief means things just

piling on top of it and it gets worse.

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when you have complicated grief

is you literally have to unpeel

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:

back back all of those layers.

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Before you can really deal with the

root of the problem, whereas if you're

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processing when it happens, you're

dealing with the root and you're

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going to pull it up from the root.

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If you're a gardener, you know, if

you don't pull the weeds up from

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the root, just going to, it's just

going to grow right back, but if you

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pull it up from the root, it's gone.

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And that's, that's kind of how

you have to think about it.

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Like, Hey, we got to pull this thing up

from the root so that it doesn't resurface

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I love that.

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I love that mental image.

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Shameka Williams: yes, what you

don't deal with, it will come back.

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Okay.

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And it comes back sometimes

unconsciously, it'll come back and you'll

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be like, Oh, I thought I dealt with it.

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:

But then you get in another

relationship and now the problems

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:

from the other relationship are here

because you never process it properly.

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So, you know, we have to understand

that it all, it all comes together if

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:

we don't process how we've feeling.

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah.

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:

I feel like we've covered a lot of

ground in a short amount of time.

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:

I'm so grateful for that.

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:

is there anything we haven't

covered from the perspective of.

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:

Like how you would encourage folks to

think about grief ,processing grief,

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:

and I, I, I wanna make sure there's

nothing you feel is left unsaid.

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Shameka Williams: Yeah, I think the

only thing that I would say is that.

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:

You, you are enough.

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And oftentimes when we grieve,

whether it's a death or whether

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it's a loss of a relationship or

friendship or even ourselves, right?

421

:

I know a lot of people, my mom,

she passed away from breast cancer

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and what I found was when she

was diagnosed, she lost herself.

423

:

She lost who she was, you

know, before her diagnosis.

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And I, I just want people

to know that you are enough.

425

:

you are strong enough to move

through whatever it is that you lose.

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:

Right?

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But you have to reveal it.

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What, what you don't

reveal, it can't be healed.

429

:

So you have to move through it,

understanding that I have to let this out.

430

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Whether through a therapist,

a coach, a friend.

431

:

The longer you keep it in, the

more dangerous it becomes to

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:

your spirit and to your mind.

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And grief often leads to mental illness.

434

:

On my podcast being bipolar, I didn't

find out that I was bipolar until I

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:

lost my mom because it ignites something

in your mind and your spirit that you

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:

don't even realize that it's happening.

437

:

And so I just encourage people to

understand that they are not alone and it

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:

happened to them, but it also happened for

them, And sometimes it's hard to see that.

439

:

When you're hurting so bad, right.

440

:

But there was a there's a reason

for everything that happens.

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And sometimes that's why we have to

go back and look at those lessons

442

:

and things that we've been through.

443

:

It's unfair.

444

:

The fact that that my mom is

gone is unfair, but I learned

445

:

so many lessons from it.

446

:

And now I can actually help somebody else.

447

:

You never go through things just for you.

448

:

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm-hmm.

449

:

Shameka Williams: You always go through

things to also help other people, and some

450

:

of those people are your children, right?

451

:

your children need to see you grieve.

452

:

They need to see you hurt, because

they need to know that these are real

453

:

emotions, and it's okay to feel them.

454

:

So much of society has told

them you don't need to cry.

455

:

You don't need to feel, just get over it.

456

:

I had so many people tell me, it's

just, you'll be fine, just get over it.

457

:

You know, and it's just like,

I don't think so, you know.

458

:

So take your time.

459

:

And, you know, it's sad that we don't

give people more time to for bereavement

460

:

like jobs only give three days.

461

:

But honestly, you take the time that

you need, and you got to choose you.

462

:

You have to choose you.

463

:

I actually left a job because

I said, no, I have to choose my

464

:

mental capacity because if I'm not

okay, nothing else will be okay.

465

:

So always choose you, always choose you.

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:

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hmm.

467

:

you, know, I, I typically wrap up

each podcast episode asking the guest

468

:

to share a quote or an affirmation.

469

:

And I feel like you've just given

me like five wisdom bombs already.

470

:

But on that note, is there any quote or

something that you would like to share

471

:

above and beyond what you've already done,

472

:

Shameka Williams: Yeah, I, I think the

only thing that I would say is that

473

:

sometimes we feel like our prayers, our

tears are in vain, but they are not.

474

:

So every time you cry.

475

:

Whether you believe in God,

the universe, whatever it is.

476

:

There is someone or something

there that is going to lift

477

:

you because you have suffered.

478

:

Suffering is inevitable.

479

:

We know that, but there is an

assignment to every tear that you cry

480

:

and just don't give up on yourself.

481

:

Don't give up and give

yourself so much grace.

482

:

We are, especially women,

so hard on ourselves.

483

:

hard and please give yourself grace

and allow yourself to feel what you

484

:

need to feel to prioritize yourself.

485

:

Because that's the only

way you'll make it.

486

:

What a powerful conversation.

487

:

as humans navigating this journey of life.

488

:

We invariably deal with

change, transition and loss.

489

:

And we know this intellectually, but in

our fast paced world, whether it's hustle

490

:

culture or capitalism or productivity

junkies or whatnot, It sometimes feels

491

:

like it's a lot harder to find the

time to process and reflect on these

492

:

things and the impact they have on us.

493

:

On some level I think I

used to think of grief.

494

:

As being reserved for

situations involving death.

495

:

It really wasn't until my divorce and the

huge changes that came along with that.

496

:

But I had to confront laws and

recognize grief in a very real way.

497

:

So.

498

:

It just makes me grateful

for my chat with Shameeka.

499

:

It was a wonderful reminder that

grief comes in all shapes and sizes.

500

:

And we are strong enough to move

through and grow from all of our losses.

501

:

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host:

Here are my key takeaways.

502

:

Number one.

503

:

You can be bitter or you can be better.

504

:

When loss happens to

us and it will happen.

505

:

We can choose how to respond to

it and how it will affect us.

506

:

Number two.

507

:

Recognize that loss and the resulting

grief can show up in a variety of places.

508

:

We might mourn a loss of identity,

the life we used to have, loss of our

509

:

kids as they become more independent.

510

:

And of course our daughters deal

with the loss too, whether it's

511

:

losing a game or losing a friend.

512

:

Loss and grief are not exclusive to death.

513

:

Number three.

514

:

Remember that grief is like a weed.

515

:

You have to deal with it from the roots.

516

:

It will continue to grow and wait for you.

517

:

It won't just go away on its own.

518

:

Number four processing your grief

means acceptance and learning.

519

:

Every loss has a lesson.

520

:

And number five, what you

don't reveal you can't heal.

521

:

Be courageous and confront your

loss for yourself and your kids.

522

:

If we model emotional awareness and

self-compassion in times of grief,

523

:

we're planting the seeds for our

kids to process in a healthy way too.

524

:

To learn more about Shemeka

and her organization.

525

:

Those without mothers.

526

:

Visit www those without mothers.org.

527

:

She also hosts the being bipolar podcast.

528

:

You can find her and the podcast

on Instagram and Facebook.

529

:

Look for, @thoseewithoutmothers, at

Shameeka speaks and that's S H a M E K a

530

:

speaks also at the being by polar podcast.

531

:

Also at the being bipolar podcast and

at coaching from grief without love.

532

:

Those links will all be

in the show notes as well.

533

:

So feel free to go there,

check that out and find her.

534

:

Thank you so much for joining me today.

535

:

A big shout out to you for taking

the time to show up for yourself

536

:

and your daughter by tuning in.

537

:

I know you have a lot vying

for your time and attention.

538

:

So I really appreciate you

choosing to spend a portion

539

:

of your day listening to me.

540

:

If you liked what you heard, please

tell a friend, hit subscribe or follow

541

:

in your favorite podcasting platform.

542

:

And again, Follow at Novi.

543

:

Instagram for quotes from wise

women, reminders, and a heads up

544

:

on upcoming podcasts as well as

coaching offerings, et cetera.

545

:

Thank you again for listening

and here's to strong women.

546

:

May we know them?

547

:

May we be them?

548

:

And may we raise them?

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