This week on Bad Elizabeth we double the intrigue and mystery with a sensational story about twin sisters accused of murder.

In 1992, Betty Wilson and her twin sister Peggy Lowe were both put on trial for murder, accused of plotting to kill Peggy's opthalmologist husband Dr. Jack Wilson, who was found in a puddle of blood on the landing in his house, with an aluminum bat next to his body.

This case was front-page news in Alabama, where the crime was committed, and became a sensation nationally as well, even becoming the Made-For-TV movie Separated by Murder, starring Sharon Gless - of Cagney & Lacey fame - playing both twins.

The case has twists and turns galore. One suspect was an alcoholic swinger, who referred to her husband a "shitbag," and the other was a choir teacher at church who was married to a minister. The story also involves a particularly inept, extremely addled hitman. Were both sisters involved in the plot? Was only one of them? Or did the hitman commit the crime on his own. Both twins were charged with the same crime, yet they had two separate trials. Only one went to jail.

After Kathy and Gideon dig through the details of the case, they welcome Emmy-winning actress Sharon Gless who talks about the challenges of playing twins in the Made-for-TV movie, her on-screen kiss with Rosie O'Donnell in Queer as Folk, and how her producer husband Barney Rosenzweig saved Cagney & Lacey from being pulled off the air. Gless also tells the story behind the famous McCarthy Chopped Salad at the Polo Lounge, named after her powerful lawyer, polo-loving Grandfather.

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Welcome to Bad Elizabeth.

I'm your host Gideon Evans,

and I'm your host Kathy Egan Taylor.

The premise of the show is exactly what it sounds like.

Each episode we profile a different Elizabeth or derivation of the name

like Elizabeth

Isabelle,

or Betty,

who deserves to be called bad.

Some of these Elizabeths are not half bad, and some are doubly bad,

double mint bad.

That's our producer and engineer Will Becton of Jet Road Studios.

Hi guys.

Our episode today is about Betty Wilson.

This story should be a Kone Brothers movie,

or an episode of Battle Elizabeth.

That'll work.

Hey, welcome to Battle Elizabeth.

I'm Gideon Evans.

And I am Kathy Egan Taylor,

and we are your tour guides to all things notorious Elizabeth's.

Yeah,

I don't think anyone else has that title.

No.

If that's on my epitaph, I'm fine with it.

Okay.

I'll make sure it is.

We'll save that for way down the road I hope.

But I'm so happy to be at Jet Road Studios.

It's such a nice neighborhood here and the studio's great.

And Will and Amber are so great.

Yes, lovely.

And so we're happy to be doing more of these.

And you also came out here from Brooklyn, right?

And you visited my favorite place.

Yeah.

Well, every time I come out here, we always talk about Zen Cow Chicken.

You bring it up and you're like, you have to try zinc out chicken.

It was funny 'cause I remember coming out here years ago and I was staying

somewhere like in Sherman Oaks in the middle of nowhere, like a Holiday Inn.

And a friend of mine who lives out here forever, she was like,

oh, you're near Asanko Chicken.

And I was like.

What is that?

And then I found out what it was.

It's up there with like in and

out.

In and out.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's, it's

like a LA staple.

And it's Armenian, right?

It's Armenian.

And there's a huge Armenian population in,

it's apparently the biggest Armenian population outside of Armenia.

Is that right?

Yes.

And you have like an Armenian lawyer and an Armenian doctor.

All

my doctors are Armenians biologists, Dr. Peter Parker, right?

Uh, is Armenian,

also known as Spider-Man.

But anyway, Zenko Chicken is famous for not only their chicken,

their shish kebabs, it's Lebanese.

Armenian

and it's kind a chain,

right?

Yes.

Yeah.

And there is a murder involved there.

It's not our episode today.

No, it's not our episode.

Well, basically no,

Elizabeth involved.

I don't think so.

I didn't look into that.

But basically it's a family owned restaurant.

It got very successful.

Yeah.

They were growing financial disputes with the family.

The son killed both his mother and his sister.

Oh no.

Murdered them and himself.

Oh no.

Oh my goodness.

Yes.

Oh, that's so terrible.

Yes.

In the valley somewhere.

Wow.

And it was,

it was a financial dispute.

Oh.

Was growing.

So that's sad much.

But anyway, so.

People always talk about the ZKO chicken murders.

Um,

wow.

But it is zko the name of the family.

It's, I think it is,

but I thought all Armenians have the IAN That's like Jack Ian.

Yes, exactly.

Eric Bogo.

So it's like Lebanese.

It's interesting 'cause like a lot of the restaurants around

me are Armenian slash Lebanese.

It's the same cuisine

I see.

But I have to say it was delicious.

I got the half chicken and sometimes white meat can be very like dry.

No, it good.

But it was very lovely and tender.

And And did you get

the garlic sauce?

I got, you told me to get the garlic sauce and it was delicious.

They gave me two of them.

It was weird 'cause that.

Consistency almost looks like butter, but it doesn't taste like, is it like

kind of like clotted yogurt or something?

It

probably is.

I,

oh my God, it's delicious.

The garlic sauce.

I mean that, that's the star I think,

right?

Oh no, exactly.

That's what whenever you order it out, you know, or you are

like extra garlic sauce please.

And I got the taboo, which was really good.

The ratio of bulgar wheat to, uh, parsley and tomatoes was perfect.

Not too much bulgar wheat, mostly veggies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very lemony and yummy.

And when you go there, everyone, as soon as the food comes, everyone's excited.

And this isn't an ad, we're not just saying it 'cause

they're like handing us money.

Although it could be.

I would love that.

I mean, if Zenko is listening

Yeah, this would be a baked in ad too.

Yeah.

Which I

think is, you know, beneficial.

But, uh, let's get into our episode.

Yes.

Our, Elizabeth.

Du

Ou.

And she wasn't born Elizabeth per se.

She was born Betty, right?

She

was born Betty?

Yes.

Betty Wood Wilson.

She's been married three times.

So Wood is like a,

I think Wood is her maiden name.

I see.

And Betty was on her birth certificate.

Yes.

But, but we are okay with that because

it's a derivation of

Lizzie Borden also had Lizzie on her birth certificate.

She wasn't born.

Elizabeth and Lizzie wasn't a nickname.

But this is like, we're making up the rulers.

We're the hosts.

I'm sorry, people.

I hope no one's angry about this.

If they're angry, I'd be curious.

Well just write us a comment.

Exactly.

So this is a story of Betty Wilson and she is a twin.

And here is another thing.

She has, uh, a twin sister, Peggy, which is a nickname for

Margaret, which is strange to me.

Oh,

that's untraceable.

But so anyway, so they're twin sisters.

We don't know if they're identical or fraternal.

It's an odd thing that I couldn't figure out.

But through all the research they do look a lot alike.

Yeah.

In some places they say they're fraternal, and some places say

they're,

they're identical.

Identical.

So someone isn't doing their research.

Well, also, a lot of the stuff this happened in 1992, it was the heyday

of like Entertainment Tonight.

And they would be on the cover of People Magazine.

The people weren't really doing a lot of hard-nosed journalism then.

It was sensational.

So

hard copy, I remember

exactly.

It was

like hard to get away from then.

It was very sort of, uh, loosey goosey as far as slick, as far as

facts.

So I did look it up and I looked up the difference between fraternal and identical

fraternal is when there are two eggs.

Yes.

And essentially you're not really have like very similar DNA, you

just happen to be born at the same time, but identical is one egg.

Yes.

And it splits and you're literally

a copy

pretty mu close.

I guess.

It's not completely identical, but it is very, very close old xox

machine.

I always wonder what that's like.

What it's like to be a twin.

I mean, I'm 18 months apart from all my siblings.

So

I went to this drama date camp and there were these two guys that

were twins and we did meditation.

We closed our eyes and apparently someone opened their eyes during the meditation

and they noticed these twins were moving their bodies the same exact way.

It was like literally, it was kind of wild.

And there's that whole thing where if like one twin gets punched or

has an illness, they, the other one might be living across the country

but knows something's going on.

They, so let's get into the Betty Wilson story.

So

yeah,

so this is the story of Betty Wilson and she has a fraternal twin sister, Peggy.

Peggy Lowe.

Peggy Lowe.

And this is the story of Betty's husband, Jack Wilson, who was murdered

and he was a doctor and.

Optometrist,

ophthalmologist.

Actually

ophthalmologist.

There's a difference.

There is a difference.

The ophthalmologist is like the real eye doctor, so to speak.

The

one that doesn't just help you with glasses.

Exactly.

Like he has a very big practice.

The murder happened in the nineties, right.

1992.

And this is right before we met each other.

Not that it really matters

exactly, but this would've been in the headlines.

So it's It's a bit outlandish and it kind of feels like a Coen Brothers story.

Yeah.

'cause it's everyone in it is ridiculous, quite frankly.

And there was also, there was a TV movie that came out in 1994 called

Separated by Murder, starring Sharon Glass of Cagney and Lacey's name.

Oh

yes.

Did the TV movie influence how the sisters were thought of?

Oh yeah, it did.

Basically, Peggy Priman, proper minister's wife, Betty Swinger,

drinker party town girl.

Lots of money.

Yeah.

Those two sort of archetypes, if you can call 'em that.

That's what the movie pushed.

And later on will have Sharon Glass as our very special guest.

Yes.

Here's the crime.

On May 22nd, 1992, 46-year-old, Betty Wilson came home.

She was attending an AA meeting.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, she came home to find her husband bludgeon to death on the upstairs landing.

Like a

landing.

Yeah.

Yes.

He was lying in a pool of blood.

This is in Huntsville, Alabama.

Oh,

and Betty Wilson, she's married to a doctor, an ophthalmologist.

Mm-hmm.

Jack Wilson.

He's very successful.

She met him when she worked at a hospital.

She was a nurse,

and they both had been married before.

Right.

They both had been married and divorced, but both amiable divorces.

Yes.

You know, and they both had three children from each marriage, but I, I believe at

this point, their children were older.

Teenagers are out of the house.

So anyway, apparently it was like love at first sight and he called her brown eyes.

Oh.

You know, they loved each other.

So she comes home, finds him on the floor.

Next to him is a baseball bat.

Mm-hmm.

That's bloodied, presumably the murder weapon.

Right.

So an aluminum bat, I think.

Exactly.

Easton.

And apparently that same bat, when Jack came home from work that

day, he was hammering a political campaign sign into his lawn with it.

So he had the bat

in his hand.

When he entered his house.

So whoever killed him, if it was the bat or not, it's not like the murderer

came

with

the bat.

Yes.

They used it as a weapon apparently.

So Betty had come home, she had been at the, she went to her AA meeting and

she went to the mall just before that.

'cause she mm-hmm.

They were gonna go away to New Mexico, to Albuquerque for a trip

the next day or something.

So she had been out shopping, you know, preparing for this trip, and she

comes home and finds her husband dead.

So she runs across the street to call 9 1 1.

And he's, did we mention that he's like in a puddle of blood?

He's in a puddle of blood.

And the weird thing is, and this is also sort of a barbaric

crime scene if he can imagine.

Yeah.

So maybe bludge to death, but also people didn't really pay

attention to details and stuff.

Like they kind of saw it and saw it for what it was and they made assumptions like

it, it's not like they would do today,

like a baseball bat causing a bunch of blood.

Doesn't.

Yes.

And there was no splatter on the walls.

You know what I mean?

I think there might have been a tiny bit

Not enough too.

If you bludgeon someone with a baseball bat, you're gonna have splat.

Goes above your head,

not only when you hit them with the bat, and not to get too graphic, but

even in your backswing, if there's blood on the bat, that blood, it's gonna

fly

off into the walls and ceiling.

It's gonna go on the ceiling in the walls.

Yes.

So this was relatively contained.

It was relatively contained and clean, which is suspicious for a baseball bat.

Murder versus a gun or a knife.

And also they have that term defensive wounds where like you're putting

your hand up to try to stop it.

Yeah.

Well, Jack actually had two broken arms,

right?

So Betty.

Comes home and sees this, she runs next door to the neighbors and calls 9 1 1.

There's actually a forensic files episode.

You can actually hear the phone call.

She's frantic and you know, it's convincing outta breath.

It's very convincing.

Yeah,

there's also stab wounds to his body in his abdomen.

And also there's a fish hook like laceration on his shoulder

that later people say, oh, that must have come from a fireplace

poker, which was not on the scene.

So

yeah, nobody found anything else

right there.

There nothing was found at the scene except for the baseball plat.

So this is the crime scene.

So let me give you a little background on Betty.

So she was born July 14th, 1945 in Gadsden, Alabama, which is about

a half an hour south, an hour and a half south rather of Huntsville.

And she was the youngest of four daughters and she had a twin sister,

Peggy, their father was a cop, but he also was a drunk, so not very reliable.

And mom worked in factories.

They were lower middle class that sort of put the seed in Betty's brain

like, I'm gonna do better, you know?

Mm-hmm.

People who went to high school with them in school with Betty and Peggy,

the twin sisters, said they were like, but they were very different.

They both were very pretty, pretty women.

If you look at the photos from 'em, from 1992, they could have

been on designing women, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Big hair, big shoulder pads.

Right.

This is the time of dynasty, uh, file.

Can, all those shows are on like Murphy

Brown,

Murphy Brown wore big shoulder pads, big hair, lot of makeup.

And was Peggy kind of like the higher achiever in school or kind

of was more well thought of, or

She was well thought of.

She was.

Homecoming queen two years in a row.

Okay.

And she also won local beauty pageants.

Is that weird?

If you're twins and you're so similar, and then one is kind of

like doing well in high school, like it would be weird if you were

identical twins and one was considered the Schwarzenegger and

one was considered the DeVito.

They seem to get along the two of them.

Yeah.

They had different routes, you know, but they, they always got along.

And so they both got married, young Betty got married to her

high school sweethearts, and then in 1969, divorced him.

They both acknowledged we were too young, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Whatever.

So Betty, she moved into a singles complex in Huntsville.

Called Imperial Gardens where everyone was single, everybody knew each other

and everyone partied every night.

That's so funny.

Well, seventies was the rise of like divorces.

One day at a time, Alice, they were all divorce a, right.

Trying to make it and raise kids.

So it's an interesting time.

But she loved it.

She worked at JC Penney's and then she worked at a health club and then she got a

job working at a hospital as a secretary.

And then being there, she decided to go to nursing school.

So she put herself through nursing school and actually once she met him,

and we're talking now about Jack.

Jack Wilson.

Yes.

Where was he

from?

He was, he was originally from Chicago.

Everyone said really charismatic, likable guy.

He did his med school in Tennessee and then ended up having his

first residency in Huntsville.

And Huntsville is a pretty big city, I would think, right?

I don't know.

I mean

know.

Well,

you're from the south,

you're from Atlanta?

Yeah, I'm from Atlanta and it's not one of the first ones to come up.

It's like Montgomery, Birmingham, and

yeah,

Huntsville might

a distant

third.

I had a roommate from Alabama, but.

I think he was from Birmingham.

The one thing I heard about Huntsville, or that I read about it was that's where

some of the space programs started.

I know we knew someone from Alabama that used to talk about it, and the

person, this is a tiny bit of a tangent.

The person that established some of that space program, I think his

name was like Werner von Braun, I think Tom Lair, oh, this is such a

tangent, did a parody song about him.

I hope that was his name.

Anyway, he, it turned out he was a Nazi in the past and that got revealed.

So that's a, it's a whole other podcast.

I'm sorry, this

wins the tangent

award for sure.

You can edit this out.

This is the cold open.

The space program was the main point.

Well, I've been to Tuscaloosa where we'll learn later on that that's where

Betty's trial had to be held because it couldn't be held in Huntsville.

She couldn't get a fair trial.

She couldn't get a fair trial.

But I went to Tuscaloosa because there was an incident at a Waffle house.

Ooh.

Oh, there's always an

incident

at the Waffle

House.

I know, but are they the best places ever?

I

love waffle and I love that they have a jukebox.

They have a whole language associated with

it.

They got the grits, they got it all.

Scattered.

Covered.

Smothered.

Smothered.

Yes, exactly.

And also it's like kind of a theater in the round there so you can

watch the cook, prepare your food.

So they're, it's always good

Chef's table.

So anyway, so, so Jack is originally from Chicago.

They meet at this hospital.

She ends up becoming a dialysis nurse.

Okay.

Ooh.

So she's a bright woman.

They end up falling in love and Jack was very smart, very talented.

So were they kind of like an active social couple?

They were like, they were an active social couple.

And this is when Betty turned to drinking.

She stopped working because she didn't need to, they lived in a

very fancy area of, uh, Huntsville.

They, they nicknamed it Pill Hill 'cause that's where all the doctors worked.

Oh.

So she had social anxiety.

'cause she came from lower middle class.

Her father was a cop.

He was, you know, drunk, whatever.

So she drank when she'd go to parties and stuff like that.

And Jack learns that he has Crohn's disease.

Right.

That's like an intestinal thing.

It's an intestinal.

He had very, very badly to the, the fact that he had to get an operation

that gave him a permanent colostomy bag.

Ugh.

How come they call it an ostomy bag?

It's colostomy.

Ostomy.

It's just

a different word.

I looked it up.

It's the same thing.

The

same pretty much

thing.

Basically it collects urine and stool.

Yeah,

I know someone who had one.

Uh, it's not pretty business.

No.

So anyway, he has this problem.

She's like, we're gonna get married and I'm gonna take care of you.

So there was love there.

There was absolute love there.

It sounded like they had a real relationship,

but they didn't have a sexual one.

Well, I mean, maybe they did early on, but Yeah, she talk smack.

Well, she referred to his colostomy bag as his shit bag.

And later she also referred to him as shit bag.

So, oh, did

she?

Oh boy.

But I, I blame that on the boo.

So anyways, they get married

and he's worth a lot.

Clearly

he's worth $6 million.

And also he had like six other life insurance policies.

Well, uninsured shit bag.

Right.

I know.

It's terrible.

So they're living Huntsville High Society doctor's wife, according

to his children, Jack's children.

They said dad was quirky, like he would wear Christmas ties in the summertime.

Mm-hmm.

That's a red flag right there.

Do

you Well, I was gonna ask you, you remember Richard Whitley?

Oh, right.

He didn't even write Rock, rock and Roll High

school.

School

rock.

Right, right.

Gideon and I worked with a writer who would wear, um, he was a comedy

writer and he wore fish ties to work.

Oh, the tie was in the shape of a

fish.

Yes.

Steve Martin wear a tie like that.

Best fishes remember.

He probably did remember during the banjo days, remember?

Yeah.

I just remember when Richard showed up, uh, and, and he wore that tie.

I was like, oh, he's a comedian.

'cause he's wearing a funny tie.

My dad had ugly ties, my late dad, but I think funny ties are a different thing.

My dad had a jury duty tie, which was naked ladies and crossbones.

A skull cross.

So, of it?

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

It

worked.

He never did jury duty.

Oh my god.

It's funny.

So anyway, so he wore quirky ties and he also liked to eat

peanut butter out of the jar.

Who doesn't do that?

I know.

And, and it was just like, they, they was the only bad things that if they were,

that's what they could dig up.

Exactly.

That's, and, and which apparently annoyed Betty.

She was an alcoholic and uh, went to AA meetings.

Did he have substance abuse issues?

He didn't at all.

Well, he basically, the problem was he was, she was a doctor's wife and

he was a doctor who said his first love were his patients, you know?

Mm-hmm.

He was very dedicated.

So she was a bit ignored.

Could he still perform as functions as a doctor while he had Crohn's disease or,

yes.

I don't think that that impacted at all.

Oh, wow.

He basically worked, and this is 1992, so pretty impressive that, you know, he

was able to work and live with this, and Betty said, both of them agreed they had

an open marriage and he was fine with it.

He said his first love is his patience and whatever you need, hun.

And so the open marriage wasn't so much that they both were able to fool around.

It was more like, I know you're not really into me sexually, so go do your thing.

Exactly.

And I think he, he was fine with it.

'cause I think he worked constantly.

She did use drinking as a way to curb her, uh, social anxiety,

and then she stopped drinking.

She went to aa, but also that became a place for her to.

More men.

She did use it as a meeting place.

Yeah,

of course, of course.

And you know, they had a big house.

She wore furs and jewelry.

She drove a Mercedes, she drove a BMW.

It all looked great.

But the open marriage thing, I mean, people live the way they wanna live.

And I'm not gonna make huge judgements, but it can open up the

possibility of bigger problems.

Right.

I would imagine it would because it opens up a whole thing about trust.

Well, you can also fall for somebody else.

It's supposed to be just about physical satisfaction, but you can't

help but maybe fall for people that you're having those affairs with.

Of course.

And like that could make things weird.

That's very hurtful.

Yeah.

I don't know anyone who is in an open marriage that wouldn't work for me.

Even if it was a sexual thing, I don't think it would work for me.

I don't think there's any movies about an open marriage that where things

just go swimmingly for all three acts.

That would be a pretty boring movie.

So Betty's now an na, but she used to describe her life as she said it was

Bloody Mary brunches and martini lunches.

That's fun.

Sounds like sex in the city.

Sounds fabulous.

Well, it reminds me of Betty Broderick a little bit.

Nice wise, very similar and also the same sort of circumstances.

Also married to a doctor, lived very, very well and also didn't

speak well of her husband.

Mm.

Around this time.

So Betty's in aa, but this was sort of a telling thing that I came across.

She had a friend named Brenda.

Yeah.

But Brenda's husband committed suicide and Betty said, did you actually kill him?

And she said, oh really?

No.

Like what a thought.

You know, Brenda was shocked.

'cause Brenda later testified against her.

Okay.

And she mentioned that story after the case.

She mentioned Case, that story, it was very peculiar.

The first thing you ask is did you kill him?

Oh, you didn't kill himself.

And she said she wanted Jack to be killed.

But some people do just joke around like that doesn't necessarily

mean she killed somebody.

Well the other thing too is also like I have a very dark sense of humor.

Yeah, you do.

Like I, I go really?

Dark.

It is true that, you know, Gallo's humor is kind of a part

of one's makeup a lot of times.

There's always gonna be a character assassination in this

day and age with social media.

Like, you know, you have to be careful all the time.

But anyway, so she did say to her friend, she'd rather be a widow than

a divorce, say Divorce say, said that.

Yes.

Betty said that to her friend.

So that kind of planted a seed.

That's interesting.

She'd rather be a widow than a divorce day.

'cause a divorce day is uncouth.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And she might've been.

Drunk when Brenda and she had this exchange.

Yeah.

A very likely.

So she was described as a mean drunk, but most of her, uh, anger when she

was drinking was aimed at her husband.

Like she constantly said, well,

that's more

pertinent, that thing.

Yeah.

And that's like a v in vino veritas

kind of Exactly.

Situation.

But everybody complains about their life when they get drunk and their

husband.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah's the first thing that comes out.

So anyway, she, so she quits drinking in 1986.

Oh.

She attended a meetings and she apparently was a role model

in the a. Everyone loved her.

Like from what I gather, from everything I've read is that people enjoyed

her except when she was a mean,

she's pretty like, seems pretty

so, so nice.

From

the videos I saw, she seems to be pretty like

She's lovely.

Yeah.

She seems like a funny.

Nice personality.

Yeah.

And, and she did meet Paramore that she was still swinging Yeah.

And meeting men when she was sober.

And Huntsville is a small town.

It's a small southern town.

And you know, there's kitchen bitches.

Yeah.

And everyone loves to talk about people.

So people like to gossip about her, about town.

Meanwhile.

Her sister, Peggy lives in Vincent, Alabama, also married young and divorced

her first husband, but then married a preacher, married a minister, and

she was part of the church choir.

Nice.

She also taught at schools.

She was an elementary school teacher, sang in the choir, married to the minister.

Everyone knows about town.

She's lovely.

I mean, she did win beauty contests.

Mm-hmm.

So she's like, you know, a pillar of society, just a lovely southern bell.

And she had a good relationship with him

very well up until a certain point.

Okay.

So this is all pre murder.

Oh,

right.

She had two kids by her first marriage and Wayne adopted them and then

they Nice had kids of their own.

They had two children together and Betty and Peggy hung out.

They'd see each other.

And Peggy loved visiting her sister Betty.

'cause her sister Betty had furs and jewelry and nice cars.

And they went out to lunch and it was a lovely lifestyle.

And Betty was very generous with her sister.

Mm-hmm.

By 1991.

Jack and Betty are sleeping in separate bedrooms.

Oh.

You know, worried that she still spoke badly about him.

Maybe he was a bad snorer.

They also were planning this trip to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Right.

They were gonna go away.

She didn't necessarily wanna go.

Yeah.

So she wasn't excited about it, but they were still functioning as a couple.

It could have been snoring, it could have been anything.

Yeah.

So that's, that's the background.

Okay.

Betty and her sister.

So now we're gonna meet the hitman.

Well, we'll get back to the murder.

Just Yes.

Just 'cause we talked about it a while ago.

She comes home at a certain point and finds him dead.

Finds

his

dead

body,

just as we mentioned earlier,

runs to the neighbors.

Nine one, they all come,

the police are there, there's an investigation, and while the investigation

is going, there's like a tip.

Right.

So this is what I was gonna get into.

Yeah.

Where I'm gonna introduce you to the man they hired.

Who was hired,

well, who was allegedly

a hitman.

Yeah.

His name is James White.

Uh, James was not a very bright guy.

He had an eighth grade education.

It's better than a sixth grade education.

Exactly.

But on top of that, he's not a very bright guy.

He's also a drunk and a drug user.

And he was discharged from Vietnam for attacking his own troops.

He's on many different substances, right?

Oh, he's on lithium.

Yeah.

To

begin with.

Because I know when you're, uh, bipolar, you take a,

i, I think he was bipolar.

I think it was something that was given to him through Army doctors.

I see.

You know, because when you shoot at your own troops and you're discharged,

they have to take some responsibility.

Boy,

and when I saw videos of this guy, James White.

It reminded me of that guy from King of the Hill that Mike Judge,

and not to make fun of Southern accent, but there was one character.

It's almost like he's speaking gibberish.

A

different language.

Exactly.

It was kinda like, oh, I'm talking about,

that's a perfect, that's

exactly you.

You're going up beyond, you're going up the on the street up a hill, you know?

Yeah.

That's

Texas.

But this guy did sound similar.

He

was married four times, was also to me, which is interesting.

Oh, really?

How four people wanted to marry

him.

I know, that's what I was gonna say.

Well, you know, I did for a job once, I had to go on a Christian

dating website and I went as.

A man who was unemployed.

I said, I had four children.

I was divorced and I was five three.

And this

was for a show?

You

did that for a show?

I did the research and I actually got hits, I got response.

I was like, who wants to marry this guy?

Well, everybody has their taste.

Unemployed, short.

He's had four failed managers and he has four kids, so.

So all these characters have kids from previous marriages.

They

were just, it was 1992.

Everyone was having kids as soon as they could have them.

So,

and did they find out about James from the tip?

James knows Peggy.

Betty's sister locally.

'cause he's a handyman at the church.

Do you want a guy like this in your church?

In elementary school?

Who is doing the hiring here?

I mean, churches a lot of times are about like second chances.

True redemption.

True.

No, fair, fair, fair.

And it's also, it's a community and everyone's welcome in

the community, in the church.

Right.

So anyway, he was a local handyman and,

and maybe he was a great handyman.

Apparently he was very good because, yeah, Betty was visiting Peggy Peggy's daughter

was in a school play, and she marveled at the handiwork of some bookshelves.

And she said, by the way, that that was done by James White.

And she's like, well, I wanna redo my screen doors in my

house, which is three hours away.

But yeah.

You know.

And she said, he's also a recovering alcoholic, so she

thought maybe you should hire him to do some work around your house.

So that's how the sisters knew James.

Right.

So Peggy was the one who really

knew him first.

She was the conduit.

Yes.

He needs money and he's a good guy.

He's a Christian, you know, whatever.

Yeah, they wanted to help him out.

Exactly.

They felt sorry for him.

But as you said later, his defense attorney described him as a

rapist, a child molester, a thief, a drug addict, all these things.

So I don't know why you'd want him in your house if this was his reputation.

No, and that's the defense attorney talking about saying

that, was it Betty's defense?

Betty's.

Betty's defense.

Not his defensive, like, so James apparently was in a bar before

the murder, and he was bragging to people that he'd just gotten paid.

He's gonna, he said, I'm going down to Huntsville and I'm gonna kill someone.

Whoa.

This woman named Peggy told me to go kill someone.

Oh, he says, oh yeah.

He

said her name in it.

It's a Cohen Brothers movie.

I

think that you're right on with the Cohen

brothers.

Well,

he used to make the movie.

Screw the Cone Brothers.

Yeah.

Screw the Cone Brothers.

Who's playing?

James?

You know who I think would be great would be Josh Brolin.

Oh, he would be,

because he's fun when he plays an idiot.

I bet Gary Oldman could pull it

off as

an American ohman.

Yes.

Wow.

So anyway, whoever he says this to in the bar calls it into the cops.

My gosh.

And just say, by the way, I was at a bar last night and this guy said, he is

hired to kill someone in Huntsville, A

doctor.

He said, I killed

to kill a doctor.

Hunt a, exactly.

So someone called it in

and that was after the crime?

No, this was before the crime.

They followed up on this tip after the murder happened, and they realized

that Peggy, who we referred to, was born on the same day as Betty.

And they, they connected it.

They're like, oh, they're twin sisters.

Okay.

So that's how it all came down was like this tip in the bar.

Got it.

Right.

But they didn't actually think about it until after the murder was committed.

They were like, oh, we gotta call in about this.

Right.

Yeah.

So.

James is going to meet Betty.

Betty hires him to go build shelves in her house, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And he doesn't show up.

She's pissed off.

He was also supposed to meet Betty at an AA meeting too.

Oh, right.

And he doesn't show up for either one of those things.

So Betty's just like, fuck that.

I'm not giving this guy another chance.

Then Peggy, you know, says, oh, he's, he's suicidal right now.

Like, he, he missed, oh boy.

He's sorry.

He missed the job.

Would you hire him back?

Do you think Peggy liked this guy?

And I'm

like, well, here's the thing.

Peggy's squeaky clean in all of

this.

Yeah.

Well, we think

apparently, uh, James had a thing for Peggy.

Okay.

And he claims that they had a sexual relationship.

It's never been confirmed.

So he doesn't show up the first time to work for them.

That's what Betty says.

She goes, the last time I talked to him, he didn't show up.

The second time he called the house when I was at Peggy's house, and I got on the

phone and I gave him talking to, yeah.

And I just said, no, you're not working for me.

So that's what she says.

Her relationship with him terminated there.

Right.

Unfortunately, there's a lot that ties her to James.

This all came out when the police interviewed James.

Right.

They arrested James on May 27th.

Five days after the murder, they arrested James

and they arrested the sisters.

The sisters were at a memorial service.

Okay.

While James was already arrested and he confessed to the whole thing.

He talks and talks.

He talks and talks and there's all this stuff.

There's crazy stuff that people saw and know about him, like he didn't,

he's a terrible hit

man.

He goes to scope the house where the doctor and Betty live and he decides

I'm gonna pretend to be a jogger.

And he wore jeans.

He wore jeans.

That's amazing.

It is a cold brother.

'cause it's, this is the stupidest hitman in the world.

I love the fact that he is like, okay, I'm gonna go act like

a jogger to be low profile.

I'll talk in, so I'm

just gonna put on jeans and then run around.

Oh yeah.

I don't even know if he had running

and someone saw him running in jeans and was like, that looks ridiculous.

And it's also an exclusive area of Huntsville.

Very fancy areas.

People know people don't

wear jeans.

Yeah.

At one point he meets up with Betty at a Chick-fil-A.

The people at Chick-fil-A remembered him.

Well, here, here's the deal.

According to James, Peggy said, if you can kill off my sister's husband,

he's a miserable, abusive doctor.

You know, like she paints this picture of Betty being this victim.

This is according to James.

According to James.

And she said, and we'll pay you $5,000.

He was like, cool.

You know, he needs the money.

So initially they give him half of it upfront, 2,500 Betty gives to

him and he spends it immediately.

And spends it on his children, which was interesting to me, which was nice.

So he basically used up the 2,500 and then they said, we'll give you

the other 2,500 when the job is done.

So meanwhile, he spent all his money.

He's like, but I need a hotel room in Huntsville, you know, to be there,

like to scout it out and stuff.

So,

well, those are expenses.

I know.

It's not the

get a per diem.

Yeah,

it, it's James Rockford, 50 bucks a day plus expenses.

Right.

They're making a new Rockford files, by the

way.

Oh, I know.

I can't wait.

I saw that.

I love that show.

Also taught my, uh, brother-in-law how to speak English.

He's Dutch by watching the Rockford files.

Anyway, he spends his money almost immediately, you know?

Then he's kind of having reservations and Peggy's like, then you have to pay

back the money if you're not gonna do it.

So he's kind of forced into doing this.

Right.

So at one point he goes down to Huntsville.

He's supposed to meet Betty at her AA meeting.

And she's going to hand him a book that has money in it for of a hundred

dollars, a book that she got out of the library with her name in it.

And it has money in it

has money.

So that's just, it has, but when he gets to the a meeting, they won't let him in.

So she, he actually asked a guard to get her to bring him.

So those, so these

are all witnesses.

He's just drawing it to,

he gets a hotel and everyone at the hotel remembers him.

Oh boy.

The people.

He went to a Kmart to buy clothes and a, like a travel kit.

They remembered him there.

There's receipts from all this stuff.

This guy really makes an impression.

He makes like 80 bad decisions an hour.

But the other thing too is it's like kind of like, tell me something

more stupid and you're like, yeah.

I've got it coming.

Right.

The other thing is Betty herself is awesome up.

So meanwhile, before the night of the murder, she goes to the mall to go

shopping for her trip and she buys a pair of floral patterned sneakers.

Oh right.

She bought them at the mall and she wore them to the AA meeting

everyone in the A meetings.

Oh God.

Like remembers her floral patterned sneakers.

It's like Magnum PI with the Ferrari.

It's exactly like, what are

you

doing?

Dude,

that was an interesting thing because later James remembers the shoes.

So when Betty says, I didn't do this crime, it is a little weird that he

remembers the exact shoes she wore.

Not

only does he remember the people that sold them to her, remember, and also

the people the AA meeting, remember.

And as a woman reading this, I'm like, who the fuck buys floral pattern shoes?

Yeah.

It's just a bad decision.

And so the night of the murder, Betty picked him up in a, in a mall parking

lot at his truck and he hid on the floor.

Why?

At this point he's so, you know, he hid on the floorboards of her car and he

remembers those floral pattern shoes.

'cause that's all he could see.

Yeah.

So her shoes connector to everything

also wasn't her.

Gun, even though a gun wasn't used.

She, Betty also bought a gun, a 38 special,

allegedly

registered in her name and she gave it to him, but he didn't wanna use it.

He was afraid it was gonna make too much noise.

Yeah, exactly.

That's smart.

Yeah.

That wasn't, um,

and so he had reservations by the gun.

He is like, I'm not gonna use a gun.

So he hid it in the floorboards of a house that was on the

property where his trailer was.

And that stayed there.

Did he even bring It Never brought,

he didn't

even bring it?

Never brought it, but they did recover it.

And it's registered.

Betty.

So he ends up in the house of the doctor, and I know he like drank a case of beer.

He, he drank,

wait, wait, wait.

Hold on.

Hold on.

18.

He drank.

He drank 18 beers.

Poor James

per

life to calm his nerves.

He drank 18 beers, but then he drank a ton of coffee.

Well, no, I heard that he took like 15 caffeine pills.

So it's like

a redneck speedball.

He was like out of his brain, like he's already adult as a

human without any substances.

He went there basically to possibly do the crime and when Jack.

Comes home.

I think he literally did not remember why he was there.

He was,

he was in a blackout

and they basically came face to face and he was like, what?

The

Jack had just pounded that campaign poster on Jay's lawn.

Right.

He had the baseball bat in his hand and they came to blows,

and then James took the bat and started wailing away.

So Jack had the bat initially.

Yeah.

He was using it as a hammer outside of the house.

Put a sign.

That's also

weird.

It gets even weirder, and this is why this is so, the story is so

crazy is because he was hammering a sign campaigning for a new da.

Oh, district

attorney.

Right.

That's why Betty couldn't be tried in

Huntsville.

Well, he also ended up winning and he was friends with Jack.

Jack, so he had to recuse himself.

Guys, I think we have our first, I have a merch idea for this episode,

and it's a. Is it not Betty White?

What's her name?

Betty Wilson.

Oh, Betty Wilson.

Betty White would be good too.

We could do a Betty Wilson version of Clue.

Oh.

Because we have all kinds of murder, weapons, all kinds of weird locations

on the landing.

And we have those floral pattern shoes.

Yes.

It's crazy.

It it, it's so crazy.

So we kills.

And there's a stabbing, but they don't find that.

And

he doesn't remember if it was a knife in the kitchen or if he brought a knife.

He says he remembers.

James says he remembers very little.

He said he was in a blackout.

I mean, the one thing that is clear, James admits to having done

it and he implicates the sisters.

Right.

Well, what he, so after the murder happens, it happens on the 22nd of May.

James is arrested on the 27th through all these sort of clues and he

immediately confesses to everything.

But the sisters are meanwhile at the memorial service for, for

Jack.

They're on a memorial service.

As soon as they leave, they're arrested.

And they have no idea that Jack James has been arrested.

And they have no idea that he's confessed everything.

They don't know anything.

After the memorial service, they go back to, they're staying at

one of their sister's house.

I see.

Not Peggy's house.

Okay.

And Betty goes to do laundry 'cause she has no clean clothing.

'cause she's been there since the the murder.

And so.

When they're arrested, everyone's the, the cops, the media all outside the house

and Peggy walks out wearing a dress.

She's beautiful Betty.

Meanwhile, they're, she's taking to, oh, they grab her.

She's wearing a men's pajama top because that's what she was wearing, you know,

and she didn't have clean clothes.

So she comes out looking like she just rolled outta bed.

And people are saying that didn't help.

Her kids

did that because she's wearing a men's pajama top.

She looks like

she came from sex looked, they call it a walk of shame.

It was definitely a walk of shame.

It appeared that way.

It's the perp walk is her walk of shame.

There is a lesson here of like, if you are arrested, whether you're

guilty or not, these things matter.

Now, those days there weren't even cell phones.

No.

And as Will said, like hard copy was on every night people were

looking for true crime stuff.

So people already in their heads, she's a slut, she's a boozer,

and a rich husband is dead.

The court of public opinion.

Walk of shame, perp walk.

It's like a fully packaged thing.

Yeah.

Meanwhile, the remaining $2,500 that James was supposed to collect was

supposed to be in Peggy's garage.

Okay.

Neighbors all saw James looming around her garage after murder

was committed to get the other.

So there are footprints everywhere or fingerprints.

Oh my goodness.

Everywhere.

I mean, no one covered anything up.

And this came from him basically ratting rat

map, everyone up, up.

But apparently there were a lot of inconsistencies in his testimony.

They said that he's actually up for parole this year.

Oh,

crazy.

In March.

And he's changed his story many times.

Yeah.

The reason why he confessed, they basically said, you all are

gonna get the electric chair.

So basically he confessed everything so he wouldn't get, he wanted life in

prison or whatever, and all three of them apparently were up for the electric chair.

This was a capital crime.

Yeah, capital crime.

So, and this is why the story gets so crazy.

There's three stories we're hearing.

We're hearing James's story, we're hearing Betty's story and

we're hearing Peggy's story.

Yeah.

So James cut a deal, but he was a witness at Betty's trial.

So he was on the stand and his confessions changed over the years.

Changed, yeah.

In fact, like I think in 1995, he retracted his whole confession again.

So pretty much all the things they accused the sisters of came

from the testimony of this guy.

That's like a. Terrible witness to some degree.

At least unreliable.

Well, he was in a blackout the whole time and he's been in and out of jails.

That's a hard thing for a DA when your number one witness is like,

well, not only is he unreliable, but he's severely unreliable.

Like he's the worst person.

Like that's the thing that's so insane to me, is that basically

like, you know, Peggy approached him according to him and said like,

we want you to get this job done.

Like of all people to choose.

She chose him.

Yeah.

So Betty went on trial?

Yes.

First.

And am I right to think that she had the most motive, at least

alleged motive, that like she would inherit all this money right.

Over $6 million?

'cause he also, he had a life insurance plan and he had all these other policies.

He had a lot of money.

She, she stood to get that she was in a sexless, loveless marriage per se.

She said she never cheated on him emotionally.

Yeah,

but I mean, she had a, a, a bad reputation about town.

Like people spoke about her and she was the, a talk of gossip always.

And all these people came on the Stand for Betty trial and were like,

they all testified against her.

She talks shit about her husband and was like making fun of his colostomy bag.

I think this is a good lesson in this case too, of like.

It's all fine and good to like be sharp tongue and everything,

but then if you ever need people, you're on, this is your life or

something, you're gonna be in trouble.

Like I remember when Elliot Spitzer was governor and had a sex

scandal and nobody liked him, so nobody was there to defend him.

And it sounds like that's kind of what happened to Betty.

It's like the same way whenever you see Alec Baldwin in page six in the post,

if he buys a pack of gum, it's sinister.

You know what I mean?

Like spotted the bloviate buying a pack of Wrigley's gum.

The post is looking to spin it that way.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So, so she was already condemned, characters assassination to begin with.

So she's on the stand

and what was her defense lawyer claiming?

That basically, this was a random act of violence

by the guy,

by James White.

Yeah.

It was just a random act of violence.

He was a rich doctor.

He came to Rob.

But the thing is, part of the deal was, according to James, that he was supposed

to look like it was like a botched robbery or something like that, but he was in a

blackout, so he couldn't even do that.

Right.

Like nothing was taken from the house.

She had jewelry, she had furs.

You know, nothing was taken

and they had met each other, but none of that was illegal.

Right.

The, the two things that are unfortunate, that Connector is the book, the library

book that he had with her name in it.

It was a book of poetry apparently, but

it had money in it.

It had a hundred bucks in it.

That was their way of passing it off.

And also, and

literally her name in it,

it literally had checked out in her name.

That's why it's so stupid.

Yeah, she wasn't, I

know that

smart on her.

I

wish they would've talked to me first so I could have, you

know, given him some clues.

Made a lot of

money consulting

that He pulled the James on that one.

Exactly.

And the other thing too is the gun is registered in her name.

It wasn't used.

It just looks bad.

And she's sleeping around.

And I know there was a racial aspect.

Well, the other thing too is, so number one, the other thing too

is they, there was a DA election coming up, so the incumbent lost.

Yeah.

And the new guy who came in, her husband supported, you know,

they were like

friends.

I

think they were friends, so, so he had to recuse himself,

so they had to recuse him.

And also they did a poll, 86% of the people that knew about it in Huntsville,

it was a big deal,

said that she was guilty so she could not be tried in Huntsville.

So they move her to Tuscaloosa.

Alabama.

Mm-hmm.

Which is

the seat of the Ku Klux Klan.

And that's where Alabama plays their games.

Roll tide.

Yeah, exactly.

Crimson Tide.

The people that were trying to smear her, the lawyers, the DA really were,

they were trying to paint her as like, I don't know if she had an affair right.

With the black guy and they were trying to play the race card there.

Well, they basically, and this is the thing that's really interesting, is that

being a woman who slept with a black man was even below being a black man.

You know what I mean?

In that community.

Yeah.

Which is a horrible thing to say and articulate.

But the, um, prosecuting attorneys, when she went to Tuscaloosa, they flew in.

She had a para, this African American guy, they flew him in and put him on the stand.

Oh boy.

They flew him in for California.

It had nothing to say.

Just like, yeah, we, we slept together.

That's all that she did with him.

But that was also planting a seed, you know?

So it was a kangaroo court.

Right.

It was kind of ridiculous.

So, Betty's trial, they found her guilty that she hired a man.

Uh, she vetted murder.

They found her guilty.

They found her guilty.

But then Peggy.

Also tried

afterwards.

Afterwards, separate trial.

She's in Huntsville,

different da I think.

Different DA also, they, they didn't allow the media ah, in her trial at all.

And also,

or at least cameras.

They didn't have cameras there.

And also in order to attend the trial, it's a public trial.

You had to get a ticket to get in.

So her people were carefully chosen in the courtroom.

The jury was all on her side, same exact evidence, everything.

She's got free.

I think after the trial she said, I asked God to give me a great lawyer.

She said, I prayed to God to give me a great lawyer.

And he did.

He was a bulldog and he was smart.

And there were a lot of.

Interesting things.

They kind of changed what might have happened.

They kind of claimed there might have been two people involved.

Yes.

They claimed that.

The thing is that I think the crime scene was carelessly observed.

Yeah.

' cause you have a body that's killed by stab wounds.

There's no knife.

There's a baseball bat he was supposedly bludgeoned with, but there's no

blood spatter that reflects that.

And then he is got this weird fish hook thing that they bring in this

fireplace poker as possible item.

Later they might have found a knife and he buried bloody clothes.

He did.

He buried things in the woods and they found that later on.

And there was an unused gun.

Was that in the car or something?

Where was the gun?

Did the gun was found on James's property.

Oh.

And I mean, the one thing that the lawyer of Peggy knew too, was that she was kind

of an unimpeachable type of personality.

So everybody knows that jurors are supposed to only listen to the

facts of the case and not judge it based on motion, but it just.

Doesn't happen.

And you know that a certain percentage of jurors are like, I like this lady.

Which sister was the prom queen?

Uh, that's Peggy.

Ah, so Peggy's has her trial.

She gets off, she's mad church

going

married to a minister.

But after this trial she divorces her husband and she

ended up marrying a professor.

Right.

So I think this kind of broke up her own marriage.

A lot of stress

when you think about it, looking at this case and it's so ridiculous, the motives.

We know James' motive.

He needs money.

Yeah.

And he also might have liked Peggy.

Exactly.

So those are the two motives.

Money.

And he loves Peggy.

Right.

So Peggy, what's her motive?

Betty could share a wealth with her.

Yeah.

She loves her sister,

loves her sister, but her sister stands to inherit a lot of money.

It's not quite as strong as Betty, but there were a lot of people apparently

that were saying like, they're either both guilty or they're both innocent.

Well,

Peggy initiated it, right?

Wasn't she the first person?

That's

what she

said.

She is the one that approached James and said, Hey, my

sister has an abusive husband.

We need to get rid of him.

But there was, that's according to James.

But there were also claims that she might have said she has a

horrible husband and told this story and didn't say go kill him.

But he was like, I'm gonna kill him 'cause she'll sleep with me.

Okay.

Yes.

So Peggy gets off.

She is acquitted.

She's acquitted.

Yes.

A local news person said one is either walking around free and

should not be, or one is sitting in prison and should be free herself.

Yeah.

So Peggy gets away, but people still think, she apparently

visits her sister in prison.

Her sister's still in prison and she prays for her daily

and she's there now.

They're all alive.

James is still alive, right?

He's up for parole this year.

And if you've seen like the other thing that kills me, if you saw

him and you're like, he's king of the, I can't understand him.

He's also not a looker.

How did he have

four

wives?

No, I don't understand.

Maybe something in the bedroom.

I don't know.

He's very good at Handy where he probably like

builds beautiful shelves.

Yeah.

That could be an aphrodisia.

Who knows?

Well, if we're assuming that they did in fact hire James.

Do you think we'll start with Betty?

Is Betty bad?

The thing is, in exploring this, I had sympathy for Betty.

I mean like she could be fun, I would imagine.

Mm-hmm.

Well, because she was found guilty.

You had sympathy or just even apart from that?

Yeah, just reading her story and who she was and

she seemed like a free spirit and kind of a fun per, you'd

wanna talk to her at a party.

Yeah, I think she'd be, and I've also listened to some

interviews, prison interviews.

But she's a fun southern lady.

She'd probably be more fun to hang out at a party than Peggy.

Than Peggy.

Peggy's probably kind of Who wants to hear about choir practice?

You want to talk to the woman who's like, I had a horrible day.

You know, I bought a

pair

of floor

pattern

shoes

at the mall today.

Can you believe

it?

Bless your heart.

I mean, not, you know, we're not making fun of southerners.

It's colorful and it's fun.

I appreciate you.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And then like aa people generally have good stories.

Yeah,

I bet she was a fun time.

I'm surprised that some of the jurors didn't find her more relat.

I think it was just such a circus and it was already put in her heads,

like she was already convicted.

Before she was convicted.