The spiritual - or rather the sacred as Aparna Uppaluri says - has always been a deeply powerful resource to women. After all in a world where there is little else to rely on it is not a surprise.

In this episode Aparna tells us why the sacred is part of her essence as a leader and how this shapes how she leads in her daily life

Julia Middleton 0:01

Thanks for listening to the women emerging podcast. Every week we put up a new episode with insights into leadership, practical leadership, seen through the eyes of women leaders of all ages, and all sectors from right across the world. Our aim is for women to be able to say if that leadership I'm in don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and join women emerging on our website, women emerging dot all that women emerging.or more fabulous, free leadership content. Welcome, welcome. Welcome Julie Middleton, women emerging director and your podcast host. This is episode 51. And it's the first in the next chapter of women emerging when the expedition is over. And we're now sure Well, first capturing and then sharing basically, what we've learned and what we've discovered about an approach to leadership that resonates with women. The first thing I think that we all completely landed on is that to be a good leader, you have to, you have to understand your essence. Now I can hear you saying What does essence mean? Well, I've got you the definition here essence means according to offerings, Google the intrinsic nature, or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, which determines its character, helpful, I hope. Anyhow, I think we we concluded that at the heart of women's leadership is our essence, and that our essence is formed by many different things. And for each woman, it's formed by different things. And I think what we wanted to do was to offer five things, five pieces of our essence, by way of illustration, and to help other women find the pieces of the essence. So the next five podcast episodes, we'll be sharing these five pieces of what we would regard as your essence. And they start with a parallel talking about why spirituality, or as she concludes, with a better word, what is sacred is so at the heart of her essence, and therefore of her leadership. I'll explain no more, because apana doesn't matter much better than me. Anna joined me when I was speaking to a partner about spirituality and sacredness. And, as you listen, you will discover just why she joined me. A parallel, one of the things that we got one of the places that we got to was that leaders needed to understand the essence. And that then connected to leaders need to lead in a way that connects with their essence. And we spent a lot of time trying to think what are the sources of essence, and one of the really powerful sources was spirituality. And I am full of questions for you to understand that. And I know Anna is as well. So you have two members of the expedition, pestering you with questions because it is such a it's such a simple first question about law. This is an absolutely obvious and simple and terribly easy question. What do we mean by spirituality?

Aparna 4:03

Thank you, Julian. I'm very happy and honoured to have you here, especially because you attended mass this morning. And I think we need to think about this what spirituality because like many other things that relate to our essence, I think we also have to think about what we mean by Essence, yep. What sits at the core of our being, and by being I also mean our way of being in this world, the way that we carry ourselves, not just for our own sakes, but the sakes of others. And how important is spirituality, especially when we talk about leading or showing up in the world as women leaders, and over the last few days, the word spirituality came up several times. And you know that this is a word that you heard me speak about many times, but not quite in the same way, I think because I've constantly spoken about faith. And I think we conflate faith and religion and belief and divinity and the sacred into what I think is a very secularised Word today, which is spirituality, I think we've made a very conscious choice to say spirituality and not faith, spirituality and not religion, because in some senses, it also separates the qualities of spirituality away from the more problematic things that are associated with faith traditions and religions, which undeniably have had deeply misogynist histories. But I think the important thing to recognise here is that faith systems, and the activation of faith has always been a deeply powerful resource for women. I think feminism has had a very hard time with it. Because how can you acknowledge that while knowing that religion has been deeply a deeply misogynist structure in many ways, and has engineered the exclusion of women in society. And I believe it's because women have because they've been outside of, because they have always had to find ways to reconnect themselves to their meaning and their essence, I've had to rely on faith deeply, because there's been very little else for them to rely upon. And I think that's been one of the deepest fractures that more progressive movements have had with connecting with, you know, regular women like me, ordinary women on the ground, so to speak, because faith traditions play an enormously powerful role as as a resource as something that you constantly have to harness, when you're at the bottom of the economic ladder, when you're at the bottom of the social ladder, or when you're at the bottom of the family, neither me the last person who gets to eat in a family. How do you how do you cope? And so I don't, I don't mean to reduce faith to a coping mechanism. But I do want to lift it up as something that has been an important resource, and that shouldn't be underestimated. And I think my, the larger frame of spirituality, I think, is a bit of a new age term, if I may, unhelpful, or helpful. Um, I think that really depends on the individual and their history and their legacy.

Julia Middleton 7:35

Well, but for us, perhaps it sounds like it, we've got to find a

Aparna 7:39

better word, I would be much happier with the word sacred, and sexuality, because I will, I will say, for example, that if we see our bodies as sacred, I mean, religions have to have done a wonderful job of making us be ashamed of our bodies, you know, and not making us feel dirty when we're menstruating. And I mean, I think this, I think, to honour our bodies, a very sacred thing to do. And I think the sexuality is very connected with our, with our bodies. So you know, to be in a sacred place in a sacred space in a sacred state of being from which then I draw my ethical power, my moral energy, my physical presence, I think, to centre sacredness would be a very beautiful thing to do. Whereas spirituality seems like bit transactional?

Julia Middleton 8:33

Yeah.

Anna 8:39

You're a scientist? How do you reconcile the sacred and science?

Aparna 8:45

Yes, I'm trained in science. And I do believe that there are many things that science teaches us and gives us that our gifts in terms of how we see the world and how we navigate the world. But I also believe that science is just one of the many ways through which one can understand the world. I think it's one of the most dominant ways that has garnered enormous amounts of power. But then you can also see that there are many places where it has been ineffective, where rationality hasn't always won. And we also know that rationality shouldn't always win. Because then you can have called on emotive and perhaps unethical actions that can take place. So I don't have a problem reconciling my training and science with my respect for the sacred because I really think that the fundamental quest of science is to answer questions about the unknown. And the sacred is about respecting and holding the unknown. And so I don't see that as a contradiction.

Julia Middleton 9:53

So how does the sacred touch influence, shape leadership?

Aparna 9:59

I think I'm going to speak very specifically here as a woman, I'm not going to speak about leadership at large. And with the assumption with the recognition that women have always had to fight for seek out and hold power from the margins. And where do you then draw your strengths, you have to draw strength from unknown sources, sources that the world doesn't always make obvious to you, but that you have to go out and seek for yourself. And a lot of those times those sources are from the your your innermost recesses, from your deep lived experiences from intergenerational memory, from your own understanding of the miracles of nature that happened within your own body, whether it's your, you know, your cycles with the moon, or whether it is your experience of pregnancy, or your ability to bear pain or offer care. We really don't know where any of that comes from. But it does doesn't add it. This is not just to generalise and say that every woman feels the same way about these things. But we clearly no woman would deny that their their attunement to the cycles of nature is qualitatively different. And there is the unknown right there. And I often think about the fact that our menstrual cycles was better and 28 days. We all know so much about the synchronising of menstrual cycles with the moon, science, it's telling us more and more about it as as time goes by. And science also has given us the possibilities to think about subjectivity, as something that is not to be dismissed, when you want to build evidence for something like the world is not just about objective measurement. And the sacred is about the ultimate subjectivity. It's about the ultimate form of our own subjectivity. And I think that to draw upon that is gives us powerful ways to be empathic, powerful ways to be, to see connections that others cannot see powerful ways to. And I think this is a often poorly used word, but to be instinctive. And I think instinct is really about making connections when connections are not obvious. And we all know that the cognitive is only one part of the way in which we know, there's other ways in which we sense things that our perceptions are fed. And there's things that happen beyond the intellect or beneath the intellect. And so for me that and that's where the sacred becomes a very deep well, that I draw upon. And in a way for me to really connect with the larger universe, you know, to invite the universe I don't, I'm not using the word in a very esoteric way. But but my fellow beings,

did you ever feel uncomfortable about admitting your sacred part? In the presence of men?

I'm more comfortable as I get older.

You had a few decades of that, I think.

I am 48. Now, and I think at 28, I would have certainly been not very comfortable. But as I get older, and I think the most important thing is I have to get comfortable with it myself. And I have discovered that I have now reached a point of deep comfort with myself,

to wait to be ought to feel comfort.

I certainly hope not. I think I'm really hoping that through the kinds of conversations that we're able to have today. And that's why I think interest, intergenerational spaces are very, very important, which we don't have enough of them. I don't have mentors. I don't have women, older women in the workplace whom I can speak to about this, whom I can go to and say, can I talk to you about drawing upon my sacred well of divinity to be a better leader? I don't have I didn't have anyone like that. But I'm very comfortable. Now having this conversation. I think the most important people to have this conversation with are not the men but but but the younger women for whom I My commitment is to make to make space for them to the greatest joy that I have had in leadership. And the day that I discovered that maybe I am I have the quality of leadership is when I realised that I was able to use whatever little power that my position gave me to make room for younger women in ways that they were it was never made for me.

Does that mean apparently you would describe Have yourself as a leader,

I think I have grown to acquire the qualities of leadership. I don't ever know that I, you know, to describe myself in a particular way, something that adds to my adds to my whole being in any particular way. It's like saying, you know, it's not a profession like not, it's not like saying, I'm a teacher, or I'm a dancer, or, you know, I'm a doctor, because I think being a leader is not a fixed state of being, it's not something you achieve, and then you forever remain in that state, which is why for me, I think leadership is a quality and not just not a state of being

now, you said that in the middle of the week, and I immediately wrote it down. And I've been staring at those words, leadership is a quality for days now. So we all know that leadership is not a position. I don't think anybody's going to question that one. We all know that leadership is certainly not a skill, even though it's often described as such. But you say leadership is a quality. Explain that.

I think I've come to realise that leadership is a complex and layered quality, like compassion, like kindness, like strength. If we say that, you know, Julia is strong, or Anna is strong, she has trend as a quality, does it mean that they're always strong? Does it mean that their strength has the same durability at every moment? Does it mean that they can be strong, or they can be extraordinarily strong when it comes to certain things and not so strong when it comes to other things? But does it mean that they're not strong. And so what I've come to discover about leadership, I think, especially in the last, I would say a decade is between both my severe failures, and moderately good successes that I've had occasional majesties and occasional mistakes, that I've had the opportunity to realise that leadership is something that you draw upon and that it's dynamic, it is not something that is fixed. But equality is something that always has a potential and a possibility for growth and change. And that's why I describe leadership as a quality.

And if we do describe leadership as equality, that would be good,

wouldn't it? I think so. And I think it fits very well into what we've been talking about in terms of how, as women, we see life in a much more cyclical way than we do in a linear than as a linear progression. It's not just direct climb up the stairs, you know, you have to go up and come down and go around, and pick yourself up, pick this up, you know, choose, sometimes just stand at the corner for a while

or pick somebody else up as you had for me over the last four days on fewer Asians,

I think what I think that and that and that. And that's what leadership is, to me, it's just being able and willing to adapt and draw upon the best of yourself. And on that moment, and the people that are around you, because that is constantly changing. And so I cannot take a fixed position as a leader. So there are times when I have to be more humble than others. There are times when I have to show less strength and more vulnerability, there are times when I have to show extraordinary strength and less vulnerability, and how can I say that that's, that's all leadership. That's all leadership. The times when I choose to be quiet. He's also leadership

and is nodding her head. Why are you nodding?

I agree. I mean, when I'm, yeah, I agree. I agree. This is the I was really much into for the whole expedition. I was browsing through doing like, this is not leadership. Leadership was always like, kind of steady, ready, badge that we need to put on our head. And I was more into leading, but quality also speak to me.

Go back to the sacred, just tell us something. Tell us a leadership moment and leadership quality moment that revealed to the people around you that you were drawing from the sacred.

That's a tough one, because I don't think that is easily are available. And I think that's the important thing about the sacred is that it isn't about always just inviting people in because the whole point of the sacred is that it's just that it's sacred. And it is it's held with deep care. Are and reverence and what you hold with deep care and reverence is not. It doesn't mean it's not to be shared. But it's not to be used fast. Yes. And so I think that I am acting almost as much as I can and as consistently as possible in my leadership, by constantly trying to reconnect with the sacred in my life, because that that's, that is my compass for being, how to do it, practice. And my practice, I don't mean just practising how to be a good person. I mean, I take the time each day, or each night, no matter how tired I am, to sit with myself, to acknowledge the presence of the sacred in my life. And I find that times when I'm rushed. And then I don't do that for myself. Like, it happened to me between September and December of last year when I just didn't make the time or the space to honour the sacred in my life. And I could see that I was more flustered, perhaps more angry. And I have a horrible habit of being angry with myself before I'm angry with others, which really hurts my sacredness. And to really cultivate the ability to listen and respond appropriately in the moment, I think that's what for me, has been the gift of having a practice of really being able to give time, every single day, to that which is my greatest resource,

and know that to understanding the secret and others people's and recognising that theirs might be different from yours.

Absolutely. But the sacred in others is the same as the sacred and me, I think that's the most beautiful thing about knowing that life is sacred, that living is a sacred act, is that it's sacred for all of us. And so then it it doesn't just motivate me, but but it connects me to beings. And, and then it helps you overcome all of those challenges of miscommunication and hierarchy, and opacity, and invisibility and all of that. Because I'm I am, I recognise that I'm drawing on a much deeper source of strength. And so all of those things that we talk about, you know, being accommodating, and empathetic and forgiving and collaborative, where do you get the strength to do all that, if you're just doing it because you want a report that's well written, then you can only do it in bits and pieces, and you'll never be able to be consistent. And so I think that, that I draw on the secret also, so that I can be consistent. And that consistency of my daily practice is what constantly is like the centre around which my pendulum swings.

So my last question, I promise, it's the last one is that there was a moment when a paranoia and Anna were in a room for some time, what was it that you saw in each other? Because something beautiful came out of that room will leave, leave the listeners to guess what came out of the room? But what was it that you saw in each other?

And let Anna go first?

It's a very difficult question because it asked me to verbalise something that is not very advisable. So I will not get the essence with my words. So maybe some direction and the best word that came that comes to me now it's, I saw the presence and intention. So not only what is happening now, but the inner direction, that is shaped by intention of a partner.

I also felt joy, and an energy joy from a recognition that was not verbal, but a joy that just came from being in the presence of someone who, who knows the joy. In Anna's case, it was because of her deep curiosity, deep sensibilities, which I think, you know, allow her to make the beautiful music that she does. And I think, for me, as you know, much older woman who's also felt that immense joy of, of creating, in the moment, spontaneously, and I think we recognise that in each other because it's, it's very hard to speak about it. It's very hard to find words to describe it. But it's very easy to feel it.

Because words would have gotten in the way when they

wants to get in the way they get in the way, all the time. And I think that's the reason that it's important for us, those of us who either have accidentally become leaders like me, or are intentionally trying to nurture the qualities of leadership in them, I think it's important to recognise that words don't always mean the same thing. They don't always they can hurt when they're meant to heal. And so, the ability to just be in presence in each other's presence, I think I would, I would like so much to see, leader leaders cultivate that, you know, cultivate the ability to just being in presence, and to work on their own

present. I just want just to add, the trap with the words is that we have impression that we possess some knowledge that we possess, by possessing the symbol because the word is the symbol, you process, the thing that it represents. And

we can give away the secret what happened when Anna and I were spending time together was we very nervously I think, at the beginning, tried to speak to each other without words, I know through her music and me through my movement. And I think we were both a little bit nervous and uncertain, because we came from very different places. We didn't share the same cultural idiom. We didn't share the same structure when it came to our art form. But once we began being our best selves for each other, I think that's what that's that's, that's the only way I can describe it. I was my best self for Anna and she was her best self for me.

It was magical, and sacred,

and absolutely sacred, profoundly sacred. Do you agree, Anna? Totally.

Now, you must both leave this glorious, glorious place that is Italy? Yes. I walked into that room as a partner and Anna were leaving. And I was left with a deep impression that something very magnificent had just happened. I had no idea what. But I knew that something had happened. And I was, I was I was feeling strangely honoured that I had witness even just the tail end of it. But then that evening, Ana and Aparna performed for us, Anna on her violin. And she was accompanying a partner, who was dancing in the most beautiful way with their musics coming together in a way that I won't forget ever. So, at this end of this episode, spirituality has been replaced by the word sacred. Leadership is firmly placed in my head as a quality, a dynamic, ever changing quality that offers endless possibilities for growth and change. It was wonderful being on the expedition with a partner and with Anna. Next week, we will share another piece of our essences, offering them to other women who will discover their own hopefully with the benefit of hearing some of ours, anywhere till next week. Lots of love, Julia.

To become part of our movement and share your thinking with us. subscribe to the podcast and join the women emerging group on our website at women emerging.org. We love all of the messages you send us keep them coming