Are you interested in putting fun back into esports? This is the episode for you! Paige Cameron, VP of Miscellanea and general wizard from Beastcoast, joins me to talk about building an international esports organization, what opportunities are out there, and what it's like to constantly adapt and switch roles. Digressions include digital goods, fan engagement strategies, how old neopets are, the queer community in South America, and managing more than one Twitter page at a time.

Episode Resources:

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/state-lgbtq-rights-latin-america-0

https://beastcoast.gg/

Welcome to the meadow woman podcast. We address the

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Hello, and welcome to the meta woman podcast part

of the holodeck media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Lindsay

the last pass and from struggle to success. We're covering it

all. To our returning listeners. Thank you so much for listening

to me jabber away every week. I appreciate it. And for all the

new listeners out there, welcome. I hope you enjoy. I

hope you'll stick around. Today I am delighted to welcome Paige

Cameron from beast coast, which I also think is a cool name

because that's what we call the Coast Guard East Coast her life

page is VP of miscellania. Opposition, I think many folks

out there can understand. viscose is an esports

organization that in its own words, emphasizes quality

content, entertainment and community engagement while

keeping the focus on the players overall wellbeing and happiness.

The page. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you on

today.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to

talk about could you

introduce yourself a little bit more? give the

audience a bit of your background and what viscose

does, do you all are?

Yeah, so I'm Paige. I'm the VP of miscellania. I'm like

technically the VP of brands. So I oversee kind of like what

these coasts overall five is, I inherited that physician kind of

just by being the first employee of east coast, the CEO of East

Coast grant, one of my closest friends, and he came to me and

he was like, I'm gonna start at esports. org. And I think that

everybody has that experience where your friend has a crazy

idea, and you don't really believe that he's gonna pull it

off. And you're like, I stand behind you come to me, you know,

a month laters like I hired to players page, I need a logo. And

so you know, here we are five years later, actually, we just

celebrated our fifth birthday depending on when this airs. And

it's just like, it's been a crazy ride. And I just like love

all the things I've been able to do these coasters just like

we're just trying to do, being great are huge, passionate fans

of video games of all sorts, and we're trying to bring that

energy, the people in the community who you know, are,

we're all here because we like it. Video games are fun and

great. And like that's the energy we're trying to bring

into this into the scene. So happy to be here.

So find that actually reminds me we said

friends and crazy ideas. I regularly my husband regularly

comes up with what he thinks are new and original inventions. And

I always read them on a scale of like how much money I think

they'll make out of them recently, I said I think you'll

make 10s of dollars and he was none too pleased. particular

rate and more dollars previously, but you know, well,

clearly base cost me more than $100, which is good, because

you've been able to grow and expand and bring on all kinds of

new teams players and get into all kinds of stuff. We're now

your VP of brands slash miscellaneous. Very cool. I want

to step back and actually talk about your experience with

design because like you said, you started with a logo design.

I know that design has been a huge part of the work you've

done at East Coast. So walk me through what you did prior what

your education was like and how you've kind of incorporated

design throughout your career to be where you are now.

So I started like I'm a graphic designer by trade, I

have a silly little degree from a silly little fake college. I

think a lot of artists out there go to like, it's like, I don't

want to drop any names. But every knows like, it's a quick

two year program that is guaranteed to get you and then

it goes bankrupt, like four days after you after you graduate.

That was my experience. But what it really gave me was a chance

to practice a chance to network and a chance to like learn from

a couple of like really good professors. And so I graduated

from the silly little program and I was working in sort of 3d,

I was working with my partner on Dota two cosmetics, because I

was a huge fan of League of Legends in high school and Dota

two is a lot like League of Legends, but don't tell anybody

that I said that. And so it was like an easy switch for me as an

artist who was interested in this game of start, like looking

into the way that they've created like a community.

Community sourced art project almost where a lot of the

cosmetic items in that game come from the community. So it was it

was a natural fit. I had graphic design experience. I had like 3d

model texture experience from some of my own crazy projects as

a kid. And that's how I ended up in Dota basically going to these

crazy, big events, you know, going to TI for the first time,

ici four was my first event. And I had like a couple of small

things in the game that had managed to get me invited, which

was incredible. It felt very much like a grassroots story for

me growing up in a small town, you know, where like, video

games get made in like LA and Toronto and I'm in Halifax and

video games don't get made here, really. I mean, they do now,

but, um, and so that's how I ended up in Dota. And it was I

met grant. And he was just like another passionate guy. He had a

similar background. He had done some stuff for TF two. Same like

community sourced projects cosmetics. And he was really

passionate about you have to he's really passionate about it.

And we just struck up a friendship. So I think I was one

of the people that we chat a lot about how there are gaps in the

industry, like, you know, people weren't making super cool merch

or people weren't like making there were a lot of like spicy

people in esports like running stuff kind of really like below

board just like kind of like not totally safe for or kind or

fair, I guess they've been lawsuits.

Lawsuits, right. And so we've talked a lot about how

just like, it seems like, the industry just really needs

somebody who cares about how they look and like cares about

the people that they're working with. And grant just thought

that was us. And so I was like, I don't know how much management

skill I have to like, run an organization, but I am a

designer, and I have that experience. And I have

connections. So like, if we're gonna go for it, I'll bring what

I have. And it was really helpful because I think people

resonated with our vibe right away, we tried to bring

something that was a little bit, at least when we started these

posts, the industry was very gunmetal and red, you know what

I mean? It was very just like, like, like cobalt and steel,

like it was it was very masculine. And, and I don't

think there's anything wrong with that aesthetic. I know, I

have a lot of like, the very sleek, aluminum. Stuff to like

that for that paraphernalia. Yeah, exactly. I'm a gamer, I

have it, I run a machine. But I wanted something a little bit

brighter and a little bit more fun and a little bit more like

gender neutral. I don't think any color really has a gender.

But I want something that could appeal to more people. And so

that's why I

just interject really quick. That's actually a

good point. Because it's not even just about, like, is it

masculine or feminine, but a lot of yeah, there's not a lot of

just like, right on stuff doesn't have to be gendered at

all, just to be fun. Exactly.

The industry is growing. In that respect, I

think that FlyQuest has done a really good job with their

branding, I think that like, you know, CLOUD NINE has always had

this bright blue color that we've admired, definitely been

one of our major inspirations for like, bringing something

bigger. But yeah, we that's what we wanted to do. So we picked

this really trendy teal color, and it seems to never go to

France. So I'm really happy with that. And so like my design

sensibilities have always been, you know, a little bit, a little

bit minimalist, a little bit, you know, clean, sharp, and it

didn't always mesh super well with the with the established

esport aesthetic. But I think people were interested in seeing

what we had, because it was fresh and different, wasn't 100%

On time all the time, you know what I mean?

That's so fun. And I want to kind of pick on a

little bit of what you said in there, one of the things that

you noted is that you weren't someone that had managed people

or necessarily had an interest in that coming in and what I

know, it was like top priority, even if you might have had an

interest, but I've been reading and thinking more about

managerial roles and how some managerial roles like for

example, when you're a game developer can involve more about

getting the product out there and managing the product

development that can lead to actual team. Obviously, that's a

very high level example. But and it's not always true that

developing a product, you have to have a team kind of but the

point is some managerial roles involve managing people and

others involved managing kind of more high level technical stuff.

And I've also been thinking about how some folks really want

to manage others and are into those kinds of personal personal

relationships. While some are definitely more again, on the

product and on the creation. You're in a role now where

you're not only doing the design portion at the source, but

you're also managing people. So where do you fall on that

spectrum of being interested in working with people and creating

the team environment versus working on product and

development and kind of overseeing, but maybe not. So in

the nitty gritty in the personal relationship side,

I definitely migrated I think when I started, and I

think a lot of people have a similar experience working in

this industry where you have this like impostor syndrome,

where it's just like, if I'm not doing anything, they're gonna

notice that I'm not good at anything. And I'm gonna get,

like, found out for being a liar and an imposter. And so that was

a thing that I really had to get over. Because, like you said,

the first, probably four years of these posts, I was doing the

nitty gritty, and I enjoy design. I absolutely, like

that's why I went to school, I like putting stuff down on

paper, I love, love seeing something at the end of the day

that I created. But as as the East Coast grew, when we had

more more stuff, more things, and more people, it just didn't

become tenable for me to be the person putting pen to paper

every day, as it were, and we you know, we hired staff. And so

that just immediately creates this, this kind of crisis of

imposter syndrome, where she's like, well, if I just tell my

staff what to do, then what am I doing all day, you know,

completely ignoring all the things that I definitely have to

do all day now as a manager, but it just like feels like, I'll

just be sitting around doing nothing. And they'll notice that

I'm not even important. And but that's just not true. And so I

think what really helped me kind of move from the do it the doer

perspective, to the delegate perspective was just like making

sure that I was hiring people that understood. And like I vibe

with, and I feel like now I love my team. And it's weird to say

my team, because I've never like felt like I was going to be

somebody's boss. But I have a social team and I have a design

team. And they just, it was about hiring people, for me that

like, had camaraderie, like had immunity. And like, we could

have a real conversation, I never want to be just like the

guy in the office, like delegating, I want to, I want it

to be a partnership, because we are we are a team. And it was,

at least for me, understanding that, at the end of the day, the

buck stops with me. So if I hire the wrong person, and they don't

get the job done, like that's on me, and like communicating to my

team that, like, if they're not doing a good job, it's because I

didn't give them the tools as a manager to do a good job, you

know, to a certain extent everybody understands, but just

like making sure that they understand that it's a

relationship, it's a give and take, it's not just me bossing

you around, it's like, if you're missing something that's on me,

I'm your boss, if you if you forget something that's on me

for not like, making sure it was scheduled. And I think that that

honesty, and that back and forth, has helped my manager

skills, my managers like style develop in a way that seems you

know, I don't want to speak for my staff, they probably made it

there at home, just like my boss sucks so bad. But it seems like

we have a really good, really good team, and it's helped me

grow my, my skills, I feel kind of good about where I am, I feel

like I've become a leader. I don't know, if I was a leader in

the beginning of east coast, I was just some guy me and grant,

were just some guys, you know, thrown into this, this entire

experience. But I feel like I have the skills. Now. I've

worked with people. And I am a leader. And it feels really good

because I like people and I like seeing people succeed. And so if

I can facilitate that, like that's, that's what I want to be

able to do. So

I think that you touched on something really

good. They're saying that, first of all, you didn't walk in

knowing exactly what your style was going to be as the manager

and you let it develop. But secondly, that you had to kind

of be pushing past the imposter syndrome portion of that, in

order to actually. Yeah,

well, it's like, I don't know, I think I spoke to

everybody about impostor syndrome. I think everybody has

it. Everybody feels like they're looking around, like everybody

else is doing great. And I'm doing awful. But like me, and

grant me like, so long. We're just like, What are you doing?

You know, so?

Yeah, I completely get that. And I want to actually

talk about what it was like at the beginning, because you were

you were the second person there. After grant. And one of

the unique holes in the, from the description I read in the

beginning is that you all focus on happiness of your creators.

So what did that look like building that into the

beginning? Like, was there a team meeting in the beginning?

Like, oh, you know, we're gonna make everyone happy? Or is it

more than what you're talking about before with? We see the

environment, we see what's out there, and we think we have a

different take on it. We want to put our own spin on it.

I definitely think it's, you know, it's definitely

like the second thing a little bit with a little, you know,

with a little bit of the first thing, we've definitely tried to

have meetings, which like, what does it mean to focus on player

happiness, and it was, was very much so a product of like, it

felt like at that point, the industry is always in a in a

process of becoming more and more corporate mainstream. And

like, that's not a bad thing. I think we have different sources

of revenue through this, we have more eyes on us, like it's

really good. But I think that at least at this point would be

formed, it just like felt like there are people getting in who

weren't super endemic to the scene and didn't necessarily

know what they're getting themselves into. And the people

who were endemic, the scene were not necessarily practiced in,

like their skills enough to like, make it happen fairly. And

so we were just like, Grant had some experience in the corporate

side, like, I guess I was, I was cool enough to take along. And

so we were like, I think if we just treat people the way we

want to be treated, and we pay them on time, which was, I

think, a big deal at that point, then like, then we can do

something important here. And we were we were, we were seeing a

lot of companies starting up getting like $10 million in

investments and then falling apart. And like, that's great,

cool. That's exciting. If I would love to a million dollars

in investments out of nowhere, but I don't want to fall apart.

So it's like, I'm available for anybody out there have $10

million

from free, thank you. Um,

if, if we could grow in a way that was sustainable, then

we wouldn't have that problem where we like suddenly sprouted

up and fell apart. And so we were focused on like, taking on

things that we could handle, you know, growing with those people

being honest with those people. Our first two hires were Mike

Hayes and Mr. Are both incredible, like Smash players,

like Ace played melee. I think he's retired now. And as far as

still playing ultimate now, just like people who had not had a

whole lot of like, they had lots of experience, but they weren't

looking directly for a sponsor at the time, but grants honesty

and his commitment to just like, let's build something here right

now, that makes sense for you, that they're both on board and I

think that that lends us a lot of credibility. And it was just

like building his honest connection and just like paying

people on time, like, we've always felt like we're

grassroots like we, we hire people who are, who love the

scenes that they're in, we do our best to understand the

scenes that we're in. And we try to, like defer to the experts in

the scene who are not necessarily the people in suits.

They're the people, you know, in pools, like they're the people

going out to, like, maybe you're terrible at Smash. But if you've

been playing it for like, 10 years, I trust your judgment.

And so being able to look for people who don't necessarily

seem like the experts, but like, do have that experience, like

looking into places where other people are not looking like

that's what we want to do.

That makes sense. And speaking of looking in the

places where other people aren't looking, and I don't know that

this is true anymore. So I don't know, this out there is

negative. But one of the cool things about the East Coast is

how international it is how you feel feel teams in South America

especially so started with this kind of grassroots organization

focused on fun. And I will say like thinking about what it was

like to start an esports organization five years ago,

like we are in a completely different environment than it

was then. And I am positive that you you all were in a much

smaller pool of, of organizations trying to do what

you're doing. I think that we're recently there's been more folks

that have come forward and tried to put together but mental well

being and fun, more at the forefront. Great.

I love having more, you know, competition makes us all

happier. And if we're all working better to do a better

job, right? The whole industry is healthier, that's good.

There's

no There's no money in it, and you can find

better revenue strategies and sponsors understand more. So I

agree, I think like having parties in the space that are

doing that is good. But how did you grow from an RBC? I mean,

you're in Canada. I don't know where grant is, but. And then

you end up with teams in South America. So how did that happen?

What we were just looking

like meet somebody and grant a big Dota fans, I told

earlier the story that we've had at TI. And we ultimately when we

sat down and started these posts, we were like, we have

these two smash players, we love them to death. We love the Smash

community, we love video games. But like we want to be in Dota,

like Dota is where we started. It's our where our passion. It's

our heart game. And so we were looking at, you know, the whole

Dota scene. And it just so happened that there was this

incredible South American team, I think it was CIA eight, they

were signed under infamous, that's the roster we have now.

And they came out of nowhere. And they surprised everybody

because for a really long time, South America, I think in a lot

of different esports has been under looked and underutilized.

And be in grant having started viscose and like always felt

like the underdog, we kind of attached yourself, we understood

that sentiment, where it's just like, the whole world is looking

at you and thinking that you're nothing. And then you come

through and you're like, Oh, I taught a to TI like I'm

competing with the best EU teams competing with the best NA

teams. Like, you know, I can do it. And so we wanted to reach

out to that team because it just like it made sense to us. We

want to be in Dota really bad and we want to support this kind

of growing industry. In Peru, there's like, there's a bunch

more Dota teams now like and the South American fans, like our

fans of Caribbean, like South American Dota fans with

American, you know, esports fans are superduper passionate. And

it was just like a market that was being underused,

underserved, because like the rest of the global community

just kind of wrote them off. Because like they don't have as

much money to they don't have as much time to practice, they

don't have as much like they're not that many resources and many

sponsors. And so being able to like reach out to them, and work

with them, like build a really cool theme house, you know, give

them the resources they need, like succeed. And we have been

succeeding we've been we've qualified for basically every

major since we since we signed the team and the Dota team, our

Dota team is the longest stable roster in Dota. History. So we

signed them after their ti run and we've had them since and

that's like the longest team longest any Dota team has stayed

together as one unit like the the post ti shuffle the post

major shuffle is like a massive, you know, it's a massive event,

usually in Dota. It's similar in other esports, where it's just

like, Okay, this team didn't this didn't work. This didn't

work like they're trading players. But that's never

happened to us, because our boys are, you know, they're

committed, they're growing together, they understand like

camaraderie, and like, those are all things that we at East

Coast, you know, are also really passionate about, like

commitment to growth, the camaraderie like fun. And so

being able to do that, like super duper exciting, especially

in in a in a region that's otherwise like, overlooked.

So that's so cool. How was it managing all of the

resources to build to grow and keep the team happy remotely?

Because if I'm not mistaken, I know that. I know that you

haven't spent much time down in Peru and I don't know how I

had a chance to go to Peru before the world fell

apart. And I was like, Oh, I'll go next year. And then you know,

but grant has been to Peru. A couple of you know, our English

speaking staff has been approved. But generally you're

right, it's remote. And it was like, it was really terrifying.

And I know a lot of there's a couple of other orgs who feel

that like resilient teams have come across the same issue like

it is very challenging to suddenly have a massive fan base

speaking a language you don't speak. So we you know, we tried

to hire people who speak Spanish and Spanish is the main language

of Peru. I think in Brazil, it's Portuguese. But in Peru, it's

Spanish. So we try to hire people who are bilingual.

Luckily, you know, they teach Spanish in schools in, in

America. So there's more bilingual people there than

like, I speak French in English. So that doesn't help me any, any

good here. And then we reached out into the Peruvian seat. And

so the same way that we found these Peruvian players who were

super passionate and super talented. They were Peruvian

support staff. They're like, ready, just like excited to work

on the game that we love so much in some way. And so we have an

extremely talented, hard working, sales lead. His name is

Alejandro. And he does, you know, he goes above and beyond

he like gets us the connections to like Ruby businesses, but he

also will go to the team house and make sure the boys were

eating. Like he's the, he gave an interview after one of our

very good matches, and people were in charge, like, oh, the

the visco CEO is so charismatic, like, well, that's Alejandro,

he's our CEO, but you know, it Peru basically, he's the CEO,

like, he makes sure that our broken support staff have what

they need. And so it was about really connecting, it was again,

like looking to the people who have the most experience, even

if it's not immediately apparent to the kind of sensibilities of

we're ready with, like we're prepared for, like, you know,

getting over your biases and looking for people who are

they're, like ready to work. And Alejandro is one of them. We

have an incredible social media manager named SEAL who like,

just like knows how the Peruvian fanbase works, how they're, how

their memes are, he's like a mean, Master, you know what I

mean. And then we have like a bunch of like support staff, we

have content staff with Glenn, we've worked with, like, on site

people, the same people who are like producing the Dota, like

the, the professional season, or the esports, like we've worked

with them before, to like, make sure that content is good. And

so it's like, they're not the kind of people that I think, you

know, generally we thought we were going to be looking for

when we started these posts, but they're talented, they're

hardworking, and like, I am so privileged to work with them

every day.

That's so cool. And I think that is a testament

to what's going on, or how you all run the team that you've

been able to build that experience, very, very far. So

that's really neat. And so I wanted to kind of continue down

this thread of as an esports organization, what you're

thinking about. So one of the things that I've been thinking

about a lot lately is fan engagement. And that's because I

think that there's so much room for creativity and unique

experiences. And you just kind of noted that right like that

you have like a whole Peruvian means section that is

specifically kind of for your fans. And that that kind of

example is true across all kinds of sports and all kinds of

esports. But the nature of gaming is such that you have

such an opportunity to be super creative, and how you reach out

to fans. traditional sports a lot harder to get players

reactions when they're running around, or just in general,

like, I now actually see traditional athletes like

jumping on Twitch to be able to interact with fans a lot more.

But gaming itself is much more of a lean forward experience.

Like you're there with people. So what are some of the ways

you're thinking about fan engagement and still balancing

the priority of player happiness? Because you can't

just say, like, stream our eight hours a day so that our fans can

get to know you like, how are you what are you thinking about

building your fan engagement experiences around.

So there's, I think there's two like not like

pillars that I'm looking to, I think that liquid has done a

really good job with this where liquid plus system, they've

almost built their own little almost like a Metaverse where

they have, you can like sign up to follow them and everything

that they have. And they give you like little custom rewards.

And just like connections with the players and like you can get

physical rewards and digital rewards like they even give away

like the weapon skins sometimes. And that brings me to the second

pillar, at least in my mind, which is like Dota has the team

bundles. And I would love to do something almost even bigger

than that. But like the team bundles now it's like you can

buy something in game to show off where your favorite team is.

And so like I said, I came from Dota cosmetics, right? So hats,

you know, sets of items, and weapons and stuff, all this

custom stuff. And so my brain is always looking for ways to like

customize your character in these games in a way that also

shows off what you're doing, it doesn't they don't have Rainbow

Six to we're lucky enough to have two skins in the partner

program with Rainbow Six, you know, an MP five skin and an LMG

skin and I was like I got to design the AMPLIFi skin which

was like a very much return to form for me starting you know,

making Dota swords. And now making these post guns. It just

like felt really, really, really natural to me. And it's just

like it's a way that you can see yourself in the game. And so

it's it's you can support us, you can support the team you can

engage and they really people really feel like they're, you

know, connecting by like showing us you know, showing us off when

they're playing their games normally. And I really want to

find a way to make that bigger because I just love I love

making hats. I love making Dota hats. I love making custom

swords and I have all these ideas we have This incredible

mascot crest, and I want to put crest in every video game,

because I think crest looks like a video game character already.

Especially, I would love an avatar of crest in, you know, in

like VR chat, you know, I would love it after a little crush

charm on every Rainbow Six Gun and like a career in Dota. Two,

it's like, that's what I'm looking for. And I think that's

the kind of stuff that resonates with people. Ultimately, games

are fun to watch. But a lot of people are watching those games,

because they're also fun to play. And so making sure that we

can connect that to people is really good. And like, if we can

take the liquid bus system where you're like, building this

community, you know, you're giving them customer rewards,

and you're connecting with your fans almost directly in this

like secret fan club kind of way, and use that system to give

away like special items, you know, special avatars, you know,

that's like where I want to be, I think that's the perfect blend

of the things that I want to do to connect with our fans.

Because we have some really great passionate people. It's

wild, I know that we don't have the hugest fan base, we're not

the biggest esports. org in the world. But I have this concept

of like the 100 true fans, where it's like real success doesn't

mean need to be massive. You just need 100 People who are

willing to spend $100 on whatever you put out. And when I

like, look out into these coasts, community and I see

those 100 people like that's what they going, you know, I

mean, it's like, I gotta make little crest tchotchkes for

these people. Because like, that's, that's, that's who I

really that's who I want to connect with, right?

I like that you say call them tchotchkes? No, I

actually liked that description, though. Because I've had, I've

had a running joke on the show that if you have ever owned,

bought or gifted a Funko, pop, I don't want to hear your opinion

on NF T's. Because I think that there's like, people collect

things that they like, just because they like them. And

whether it's a digital good or real world good. Or whatever it

may be. I do think that it's an extremely valuable way of

engaging with an audience and tchotchkes are things that like

humans have liked forever. I mean, we have like pet rocks in

the 80s. Right, like, people will pay for tchotchkes and I

don't think that that is a I don't think that's a bad thing.

And I feel like there's so many people who are trying to almost

correct that and say, like, No, it has to be the authenticity

thing, like it has to everything has to be like really authentic

and real. And it's like, no, just make me a cute tchotchke

that I can show off to everyone.

Like I have, you know, I have my own concerns, you

know, conversations about about NF T's about crypto, all that

stuff. But like at the end of the day, this house that I live

in right now was paid for by Dota hats, right? And so like I

digital items do have value and like Gabe Newell proved that 15

years ago when he was like TF two has hats. Now, I don't even

know if it was, like 10 years ago, I don't know what time is

it whatever. Like when someone paid $400 for an unusual TF two

hat, like, digital items have value and they matter to people.

And if I can give something to somebody and make like that they

care about then I feel I feel good about that. Generally.

Yeah. And that's more the point that I'm making.

There's a whole NF T's our whole other issue, but the digital

assets, digital goods, digital trading, that's something that's

been around for quite a long time. Yeah, I think that people

have, it's almost like they're like, so used to it that when

you switch the name, they get really offended, but like we've

been doing there's issues for sure, but, but we

can find a way to do this, you know, safe, good. And

it could make sense. We can make this make sense.

Like we said, don't I had them off? It's a

white lawsuit

about light CSGO gambling issues, but you know

what?

We'll work through it and you know, we'll have a

problem. Once speaking of this whole kind of discussion, you

are someone who you know who works in design who has worked

with digital goods. What are you looking forward to with the

development of the metaverse and further technologies? I know you

you mentioned that, like, almost a mini Metaverse as the as you

previously called it.

I think yeah, I think the concept of a Metaverse has

existed for a really long time. Like I when I started doing

texturing like when I started practicing my skills as a

teenager was in this like, silly little digital world called MBU,

which is like a chat client, where you had your own little

character, your avatar, it's very similar to Second Life,

which I think is something that a lot of other people point to

to say like the metaverse concept has you know existed for

a really long time you know, so like I had I just see often when

I was growing up the stuff was a little bit kind of undergrad it

was it was not mainstream and I think there's a lot of

conversation now that like people who didn't know this

stuff existed are now learning about it for better or for worse

and but we can we can take that information that that new

knowledge of like turn it into something good and I think it'll

make people more understanding of like stuff like digital

digital goods that do have value like go to hats right? And so

like bringing that to more people and having them

understand and you know, potentially even enjoy all that

all that kind of stuff like I don't know I when I was a kid I

played do pets right? I collected neopoints I got my

little like, got my new pets little outfits now. I mean, like

I paint them different colors, right? Like, that helped me a

lot of joy. It

still brings me along. Yeah. figure Neopets are

still surviving and thriving. They are

good Believe it or not, I log in at least once a month

to make sure they're fed. Yeah, because like, and like that

stuff is like 15 like my Neopets accounts like 18 years old now

my Neopets account vote, which is insane to me. But it's just

like that kind of that little bit of joy that little bit of

like, of, you know, ownership and, and creativity has carried

me through my whole life. And so like being able to potentially

bring that to somebody else, to, you know, grow that to introduce

more people with the concept of that and like, get them

interested in video games in general, you know, connecting

with other people digitally out, you know how valuable that is.

And then like esports, and video games is like a concept. I think

it all comes together like it's all connected.

And yeah, and there's real value in all of

that with esports. And pulling on that perfect kind of

transition to the next question. But how do you think esports and

competitive gaming? What do you think the look like in the

metaverse? Like? Do you think it'll be similar to how we kind

of have structures now? Or do you think that things will look

different when it comes specifically to kind of

competitive games? Honestly,

I I'm like a huge VR person. Like I was one of the

first people to buy an HTC Vive, I was so lucky. That event that

I went to the TI TI for or TX was ti five, like valve was

like, previewing the Vive. And I have to try it for the first

time and it blew my mind. And so like, I've been a VR, you know,

what's the word like? Evangelist, I've been a VR

evangelist ever since that moment, because like this big

whale came by and like this concept of presence, like it

really, it really made me exciting, excited. And then this

year, the past couple of years, where we haven't been able to go

to events, I've been like, so sad about it. I miss events. And

I don't think VR events are ever going to like, fully replace

real events. Because now that I'm getting back out there and

talking to people, of course, like we met in a real event. So

sweet. It was so great. But I think like, introducing people

to that concept of, of esports events, and like, broadcasting

them through VR, like that's like the world I want to

imagine. I don't know, I know, the VR has been a hard sell. I

know, there's a lot of concepts here that I think are hard

sales, but like they're so fun to me. And then digital events.

I think that digital events, like drops and stuff, okay, I'm

trying to get here, I'm trying to get to this concept, you

know, when you're watching a game on Twitch, and like, they

give away free drops for your games. Like you're like, Oh,

this is how I unlock a new concept. And I think that's

really fun. And for a long time Dota has done that where like,

if you actually go to a real life event, you can like sign up

with your Steam account and like get custom special special items

for like being in person in that event. They're called the prison

witness trust treasures. And there's some of the rarest

treasures in Dota. And every time I've been to an event me

and my friends were like, how many did you get? Like, it's

it's all random, like random drops, like, did you get an H

like, I got like four, like, I got none, like you have all my

luck. And it's just like, it's really fun, like in person, but

also like digital, almost Metaverse s trading component

that like rings, the real life experience of the esports arena,

like back into the video game experience of the esports arena.

And it like keeps them connected. And it makes you feel

like, you're not just like watching the game. But you're

also playing the game, you know what I mean? And I would love to

see that continue to grow. I love to see that, like be a huge

part of making sure that everything like really

connecting your online world with the real life world and

having them like LinkedIn ways that don't suck. You know?

Yeah. What do you think the actual games will look

like to? You know, I'm wondering like, I don't know, I don't know

exactly when I'm thinking of it, you know, as someone who is very

well versed in a lot of different kinds of games. Yeah.

And in esports teams a competitive play. Like do you

think that there'll be a kind of new types of games or different

I'm wondering, like, what it's going to be like watching like a

bunch of people on stage, who are wearing VR headsets and

eating? And I think it's gonna be like, I think that's fine. I

don't want to sound flippant about it. But like, do you think

that we'll get like new types of games? Maybe I think I think

so. I think I've seen some really incredible I know, I

sort of your variables, and I stopped talking about it. But

like, I've seen some like, as this as the tech gets cheaper.

And like as it gets scaled down, you get these bigger

experiences, because you can suddenly put like four headsets

in a massive room and have those people that laser tag versus

when I bought a headset, it was massive on my face. It was

heavy, and it had a huge cord. So like I couldn't play laser

tag with anybody unless I wanted to trip over the airport. Now.

Like all that stuff is wireless, like the Oculus. The Oculus

quest totally blew my mind when I tried it on the first time and

the inside of tracking, because I was like you're never gonna

get tracking to make that won't make people sick unless you have

a base station. And then the question is like, you know, I

hired John Carmack, and we don't need no base stations anymore.

Like you got that inserter and it was just incredible. And so

suddenly, instead of like having to spend 40 minutes making sure

my base stations were aligned, making sure my my living room

was clean. Like I could just pop it on and play beats there. And

I think like with that level of tech getting better and better,

like yeah, maybe we'll have a big box arena I have like 40

people now for like 20. Like maybe 10 People like five, five,

like in a huge arena. And you can see them like, in real life

down there like playing laser tag, like there's their human

bodies. And then you look up the same way, like when you're

playing Dota. The screen is like up here. And like that's the

that's the in game view where everything was way cooler. But

you could also

be so cool. That'd be fun. I don't know. Maybe,

maybe,

maybe it's too late. It's too much. But like, I would

go to an event like that. Yeah,

it would be good. I mean, it will be. That's kind

of interesting to think about. Because as someone so I played

basketball in college, and several times on the show, but

I'm kind of imagining like, so what if you're playing Dota and

it was virtual, but you also then would have to have some

elements, like, like you said, If you build the whole kind of

maze, or whatever you wanna call it, um, where you have to run

and hide, physically, then I wonder if, like physical traits

will come back into play, you know, like you need to be. When

I started playing beat Sabre, I was like, sad and wimpy. And

then beat Sabre was so like, it got my heart rate up, it got my

arms moving. And like ever since

I started playing beat Sabre like, I start going to the

real dream, because I was like, I like feeling physical. I feel

like strong like it makes me turns out that when you

exercise, you actually feel better, believe it or not, I

know the doctors say that nobody actually be on to something. And

so I would love to see just like any sport, that's the sport like

where you have to, like aim and shoot your fake gun with your

controllers, but also, like you need to run back and forth. You

know, it's just like, it's just, I personally would love to play

that. And if I would love to play that, then that's like the

first step in turning into an esport. Yeah, right. Right. I

mean, yeah, like you said, it's like laser tag.

But I'll even like even, you're getting even more of like, the

graphic experience and just that whole, like, plot experience,

and you want laser tag. So Oh, that's such a cool idea. I

actually, this is a really interesting line of thinking,

because one of the things about video games is that they can be

a great equalizer for physical ability in a way that like, if

you are five, seven, as a male, you probably aren't going to

make it into the NBA. I have always felt that I don't know if

you feel this way too, though, I've always told that that's

kind of an oversimplification. Because the same way that you

have to be really tall and fast and strong play in the NBA, you

have to have extremely fast reaction time. You have to have

extremely quick decision making like you have to have all these

abilities that are somewhat innate and somewhat learned. But

it's not like, oh, video games are great equalizer and everyone

out can go out and be they were like anyone can be a pro. And

it's like, that's not true. Like there's, there's limitations in

the same way that like, professional sports have

limitations on physicality. So I've always found that argument

to be kind of annoying, actually. Anyone could be

probably okay.

Have you seen these guys? Shoot a God? Don't play

Rainbow Six. Unless the Rainbow Six Pillars of the Rainbow Six,

just like I I don't know, I'm not I'm not you have to

be good at certain things, like certain skills in

the same way that you have to be good at certain skills, like

anything or do anything. So yeah. But anyways, it's

fascinating to think about the combination of like real world,

like, Okay, you have to be really fast. But you also have

to be extremely accurate. And you have to have like, really

good planning. That would be so cool to watch. It's definitely

like a

different mixture, right? Where it's just like,

there's a set of skills you need to do to play video games.

Traditionally, there's a set of skills need to play sports

traditionally. And then like some of both of these things,

play like professional physical video games. Definitely. Yeah.

And so just like, I think, like, yeah, you still have some stuff

that maybe not everybody can do. But like, there's, it's a

mixture of my appeal or like, include people who would

otherwise be excluded. And like the two other categories, right,

where it's like, maybe I am really fast, and I can shoot a

video game gone really well. But like, I've never been, like,

tall enough, like you said to play basketball. Like maybe I

can play this step. And so it's just like, it gives more people

more options, right? Yeah,

so cool. Okay, well, that's really, really fun.

And I'm glad that we talked about that, because that was fun

for me. I want to pivot for kind of our last topic here and talk

about LGBTQI plus rights, because you are someone who uses

she they pronouns, and you call yourself woman adjacent, which I

think I think about that all the time. By the way, a lot, too. I

want you to Jason, but you've used your platform quite a bit

to discuss rights for folks in the community. And I want to ask

you kind of two sort of separate questions. But I first want to

know, what esports orgs can do to be more inclusive towards

queer identifying folks. And I also want to know, like, from

your perspective, as someone who works in South America, what

kind of those in Peru and what kind of those like cultural

differences are in your audiences? And what that looks

like? I'm just curious. Yeah. Well, I'll

start with Second question, because it's a little

bit of a shorter answer. In general, I was like nervous the

first time we like post some of our like, like Pride Month stuff

in our South American platforms, just because it's not a

community that I'm a huge part of, like, it's not one, like my

understanding of like LGBT rights pretty much focused on

English language, countries, like, you know, North America,

like Europe a little bit. So it's like, and I don't, I don't,

I don't claim to understand, you know, like, it's a very, you

know, Eurocentric experience, just because, like, that's where

I live. So I was just like, I don't know how this is gonna be

received, but like, we posted it on our on our, on our Facebook

platform. And our fans seem to be like, Yeah, this is great.

Like, I think everybody knows a queer person at the end of the

day, whether or not like, you know, their culture 100% except

for certain sets that are not like everybody, just like, I

think overall, in general, people are getting more

understanding. And so like, I just, I was really pleasantly

surprised to see like, not not a whole lot of vitriol, like,

nothing kind of scary. Like, I don't know why I was afraid, you

know, like I said, Everybody's people, but it's just like, it's

hard when you don't speak the language like this is going over

well, but no one over really, really well. And like, in

general, we, we try to keep our messaging at least from, from

our perspective, to the South American, pretty simple, just

like because, like, I can talk at length about like,

specifically like American and Canadian politics and laws and

rules around like, where people, but like, I just don't know what

that looks like in South America. So we'll keep it

simple. We'll let that will like tell them you know, like,

gay people cool.

And they're like, generally like, yeah, you're

right. And I just don't have the language to like, communicate

the intricacies. Because I don't speak I don't speak Spanish and,

you know, it's just like, it's, it's tough. But like, you know,

that they're like, Yeah, okay, cool, awesome. Like, viscose is

viscose is awesome. And there's like, a bunch of like, women who

are into Dota in South America, because it's such a cultural,

you know, cultural phenomenon. They're so like, they're, I

think being able to say, like, women and Queer People are

welcome with these coasts in Spanish, you know, as best we

can, resonates with them, too. Like, I know, like, the Peruvian

audience is mostly, you know, young men, very similar to what

people I think, imagine the esports industry like audiences.

But you know, we've worked with like, female go to influencers,

and we've worked with female go to artists, and so like, I know,

those people are there in South America, I don't want to stop

trying to reach them. Don't necessarily, you know what I

mean? And so like, I'm happy that when we, when we talked, we

talked to our our South American fans, they listen, and it's

really, really cool. Like, be that kind of cross cultural

blank there. At least your first The other question was just

like, What can esports orgs do to make sure that your people

what can esports orgs do to make people feel accepted? And I

think, I mean, I just want to make sure that everybody knows

that, like, there are so many queer people in these

communities already, I think about how many like, like trans

people I know who like grew up playing Smash Bros. Just like,

just like, I know that at every local, there's like, at least

one queer person, one trans person out there playing Smash

Bros that everybody knows, there was known for a really long

time. And like, at the end of the day, like, those people have

brought life and like culture and texture to our communities,

for the entirety of its of its entire existence. Like I love

now that GQ is like showing people's pronouns when they're

streaming and, or when they're doing runs, because you start to

see like, Oh, these people are these people are non binary,

like, appearance, people are trans. And like, this GQ event

is the big one of the biggest, like, gaming mainstream events

in the entire like world of gaming, like lots of normal

people watch it. And just like these people have been integral

to the speedrunning community, not necessarily the same as the

esports community, but very adjacent. And so like, they've

built this community, like, the reason why this event is so

successful is because all of these urine trans people have

been passionate about it for their entire lives. And it's

just like, we built this thing, you know what I mean? Like, I

don't want to say we built it, but like every esport event in

the world has has at least two or three trans people just in

the background, making sure that the the production is running

that the you know, that the the people get there on time, the

the food service is there, you know, we did this together with

allies, but like, we built this thing. And so recognizing

understanding that like the queer people are integral to

this success of this community is really important to me, I

think. And then just making sure you stand up and say, like, you

know, you belong here. Like really specifically directed

like, you belong here, like, we support you. Like, we're not

going to put up with any kind of hate because I do know, there's

just like esports was a boys club for a long time gaming was

a boys club for a really long time. There are still some kind

of sour attitudes out there. And being vocal and specific about

making sure that those attitudes are not allowed. Like, I think

it goes a long way. So that's me, that's what I think. And

that's what I try to do.

Yeah, everyone go go thank trans person in your

life today. And I mean, that gives him recognition for all

the hard work that that folks do in all kinds of industries is

one of I mean, one of my sort of, I guess, biggest pet Use

about under-representation across gaming in general, like

you are. Like, not only is this for moral reasons, but you are

hurting your own bottom line here. Like, these are people

that are willing to engage with you your platform and spend

money and time and effort with you and your game, like, just be

nice, be supportive, like, yeah,

I want to play out hard, but you know that 100 true

fans concept, like I think at least 50 of those fans are,

we're in some way or trans in some way. And it's just because

like, I've been able to connect with them and been like, I'm so

grateful that you're my fan. And they're like, we're so grateful

that you recognize that we're here. Like, that's really all it

takes, you know, just like just and like being able to be

openly, loudly myself, enough for a lot of people be like,

that's really cool. And just being specific about like, you

know, saying that, like, we're people, like deserve rights, you

know, trans rights are sort of under attack right now, like, do

what you can, being specific and targeted and being like, instead

of just like a little bit vague, and I think there's nothing

wrong with positive bag statements, but the more

specific and targeted and like, honest, you can be, I think that

really resonates with people. So I love that that's

a great place to kind of wrap up. So I'm gonna,

just really quick what we talked about. And we talked about the

inception of east coast and how you started in the esports

organization with the idea of creating a more fun and secure

environment simultaneously, trying to get away from that

very masculine, very stealing cobalt slash lawsuits. When it

comes to managerial roles, you have to get over imposter

syndrome, it may feel like managers are not doing much.

Figuring out the balance. Delegation versus kind of people

work time is an important part of being a manager, building up

partnerships and team camaraderie is also important.

You have to hire the right folks, you have to give them the

right tools this manager to do good job, you have to recognize

when that goes well. And as an organization, you mentioned that

you are focused on sustainable growth. You don't want to just

get funding and peter out, you wanted to have a fully fleshed

out strategy, we tried to look in places that were historically

underserved, while staying true to your interests and passions.

Just how these posts line up with a Dota team in Peru, which

is awesome, has to be an engagement, we had a lot of talk

about digital rewards, which is really cool. You can make real

world worlds that people real rewards that people can get and

use in game to show their support and fandom. Do special

drops for those and secret fan clubs. And like we talked about

with 100 true fans, you don't need a huge fan base. What you

need is a dedicated base of people that want to interact

with the organization and show off their fans. And it is

equally important to think recognize and make those people

feel seen within the two way street when it comes to fan

engagement. The Metaverse is more mainstream now. It's always

been around, but it's becoming more and more of a topic.

Digital Goods and digital trading has been around for a

long time. But getting people more comfortable with that is

very valuable, when it comes to gaming events in person is still

important. But there's ways to incorporate that with a digital

experience that kind of crosses over between the in person

world. We talked about VR tech and you are a VR tech

evangelist. How it has improved so much that there's huge

potential for VR to create really fun gaming experiences,

including a mix of physical and gaming help players running and

jumping in a virtual game. But it just sounds like the most fun

thing to watch ever. And VR can also help motivate people with

physical movement. Beat Sabre got paged into the gym, just for

all dudes out there. So use beat Sabre as motivation to not have

noodle arms. I have had noodle arms for a long time. It's fine.

If you also like having noodle arms. That's cool, too. It's the

south end and we actually ended the discussion on LGBTQI rights.

These trans movies and South America reception of Pride Month

and other support for easy verbalization has been really

positive so far, which is cool. It comes to esports or is at

large. Having simple sharing mechanisms like putting pronouns

on events can really make queer trans communities feel seen,

especially since grassroots communities are integral to the

success of a lot of these events. I think that's a great

way to end on the last section that I like to do and to do this

with everyone who comes on the show because it's a really fun

chance to kind of look back at your career. Think about what

you've done. Things that I like to ask is what is one thing you

would like to tell your younger self about getting into the

gaming industry and being successful?

First of all, I just want to say you made me sound so

eloquent that wrap up Wow.

I was like really

one thing I think I would tell myself when I was

young before I did that silly little art degree that I

graduated with I went to university for like a year and a

half. It was stressful and it wasn't for me and I dropped out

and there was like a period of time there where I was just like

did I make a mistake like like waste my money going to

university just to drop out like am I am I a failure? And I think

it's it's a thing that a lot Have like young people aged 18

who go to university for the first time, there's like, maybe

this isn't what I want. It's like the scary moment. And I was

just like, worried that I've made a mistake. And I if I could

go back to that 18 year old kid who would just drop out of

university and be like, it's, it's fine, like, you're gonna be

okay. That's what I would say. Like, it seems silly to for my

advice to be, it's okay that you dropped out of university. But

like, everybody's path is different. And if you're

passionate, and if you're willing to, like, roll with the

punches, like you could find a path that makes sense for you.

And it doesn't have to be the path that like you thought it

was. If you're willing to, you know, except that life is crazy

sometimes and just like find, find your own, your own your own

adventure, right. And I guess it sounds super cheesy like that.

But that's my advice, like, it's okay, that you dropped out of

university, you can always go back, you can always go

somewhere else, you can always just do something else. Like, it

seems sometimes when you're stuck in one place that that

that moment stretches out forever. And you're like, I'm

always going to be stuck right here. I'm always going to feel

exactly the way I feel, you know, everyone's work a dead end

job, where it's just like, is it just going to be this every day

for the rest of my life. And the good thing about life is that it

never will be, it's always changing, for better or for

worse, but like, you don't have to be afraid of the monotony.

It's not going to last, before you know it, you'll be in some

crazy experience that maybe it sucks, but it's different. And

you can use that to grow and move forward. And it's all about

moving forward. Right?

It's not too esoteric. I like that. Because

I'm personal at 18. I had nothing figured out and anyone

who does I'm like so impressed. But I feel like we just kind of

drop 18 year olds off. Now you're a real person, like, no,

no, really. Yeah, exactly. So I can totally sympathize with

that. And because I've had a lot of people on the show where I've

asked her, like more non traditional, I guess, the

traditional path is definitely college job after high school.

So I've been I've had a lot of people on who I've kind of asked

about non traditional, right, like, what certifications can

you get? Where can you start an entry level job? I really

appreciate following that protocol. And I think it's

really important. Because not everyone's meant for school.

Yeah, yeah, like school

is really cool. I would love to go back. If I had time.

Now, I would love to get a degree in something. Because

like, the pressure is off now that I'm like, almost 30 It's

like, Oh, I could just go get a degree in like, you know,

whatever. Just like film studies. Like it might be a

little bit expensive. But I could do it like one class. It'd

be fun. Like I would if I had the time, I would love to do it.

But like when you're young, it just like feels like it's

everything. Right? Yeah. And so like, if you're having fun if

you're doing well in school, like stay in school, don't don't

listen to me and drop out. But like if you're like struggling

and you're like, I think I want to drop out like, that's it.

That might be the right choice for you. Maybe it's not, I don't

know you but like, I don't want anybody to feel like it's like a

double down, right. Dropping out kind of sucks. Because

emotionally there's a whole bunch of other stuff. Like don't

feel bad about feeling bad. You know what I mean? Like, yeah,

hold down, just like accept what you're doing and move forward.

And we can all move forward.

Right? Ooh, I like that. Yeah, don't double down is

good. Ah, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find

you follow you if you want to be found and followed? Where can

they learn about East Coast, although

my handle on everything is the base 16. That's th e VAs

e one, six. It's a joke, like hexadecimal is a base 16 number

system. I'm a web code or under graphic designer, so you know,

it's fun. So I'm the basic seen on Twitter, on Instagram and on

Tik Tok. I don't put something up very often, but I have a

couple of banners. And then these coasters, these posts. You

can go to ww.viscose.gg for website and then we're just post

on Twitter. We mentioned a NAB that handle this beast post. I

think we're viscose GG, all one word on Instagram tick tock in

most other places, because somebody else will be posted on

those other platforms. But you know, please check me out.

Please check out these posts. Follow all of our brilliant

creators. And thank you so much Lindsay for having me on. This

has been so great.

So fun. For all the listeners out there. Be sure

to leave the five star ratings and reviews. Check out other

holodeck media podcasts including meta business and

visit esports. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn at

Lindsey pass and you can catch me Wednesday afternoons on the

business of esports live after show. We will see you next week.

Thanks.

Thanks for joining us here on meta woman. Make sure to

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