In this episode, we talk to Sandra C. Smith, an Enneagram teacher, about her new book, The Enneagram Map to Your Deeper Self: Living Beyond Your Type.

[2:44] Getting to know Sandra through summer-themed questions

[8:26] Sandra’s personal journey with the Enneagram

[12:19] Sandra’s teachers, their influences on her and how they show up in her book

[17:16] Defining type and why is understanding that you’re more than and not just your type is important for your growth

[25:37] How Sandra’s strengths show up as she wrote her book

[29:19] The dualities of the types

[41:39] This yearning to open ourselves to more of what we are

[47:21] Prompt for each type to help them reframe and move beyond their own limited perspective

[52:24] Why we should buy Sandra’s book and where they can buy it

Follow Sandra’s work: Alchemy Works // @sandrasmithalchemyworks // Heart of the Enneagram Podcast // “The Enneagram Map to Your Deeper Self: Living Beyond Your Type”

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Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: “Serious Work for Unserious Humans.”

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Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks

Production/Editing: Seth Creekmore

• Support our podcast: https://fathomspodcast.com/support
• Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
• Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
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• Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

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Creek: 00:00:02

Guess what, guys, we're back for a bonus episode before the actual drop of the massive, massive season we have planned for you all. We love you so much. Oh, my God, Lindsay. You're muted.

Creek: 00:00:19

You're muted.

Lindsey: 00:00:20

You told me to mute.

Creek: 00:00:21

I know.

Sandra: 00:00:22

I know.

Creek: 00:00:22

I know. We do.

Lindsey: 00:00:26

We really, really love you.

Creek: 00:00:28

We really love you guys.

Abram: 00:00:29

Yeah. Yeah. If you think. If whatever word comes to mind for massive, think put x ten next.

Lindsey: 00:00:36

Megalodon.

Creek: 00:00:37

Megalodon. So just so we have more episodes coming up, we're just going to do a few bonus episodes here or there, but.

And so we had Sandra Smith on for this episode, and it was really, really fun. You've probably heard of her if you've listened to Heart of the Enneagram podcast with Christopher Copelande.

Just really great people in their own right. And she released a book, so she contacted us, wanted a quick interview, and we're like, of course. So, Heart of the Enneagram podcast.

Go check that out. It's a great. It's a great listen. One of the. One of, like, the first Enneagram podcasts that I was aware of, actually.

So, yeah, with that, any further comments from you all before we give them this episode?

Abram: 00:01:26

I'll just echo that. That podcast episode. That podcast is very, very well done. It's one of the best, I would say that I would in the past have referred people to.

And as far as this book, Sanders put something together, I think that's really got some newer, fresher things inside it as well. I think, to be real honest, a lot of Enneagram books these days tend to be redoing of the same things over and over.

And I think there's actually some fresh stuff in here, which is really beautiful. And yeah, there's, she's just got some great takes. So for sure. Check out her book.

Lindsey: 00:02:04

Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. I think if you are intrigued by Almas, but you don't know what the heck Almas is talking about, get this book.

Creek: 00:02:12

There we go.

Lindsey: 00:02:12

There we go.

Creek: 00:02:14

So once again, keep your eyes peeled on this feed for more bonus content prior to season five release. You can follow us on Instagram at Fathoms enneagram. All of our accounts are look in the show notes.

You can find all the links to kind of stay up to date with what is happening. We love you all. We're looking forward to sharing what we got planned for you. Without further ado, Sandra Smith, today, it is a very special.

We have an I recorded together in a really long time, actually. And what brings us together today is Sandra Smith, and she is coming out with a new book. So, Sandra, welcome to the show.

Lindsey: 00:03:02

Welcome.

Sandra: 00:03:03

Thank you, Lindsay and Creek and Abram. I'm happy to be with you all today.

Creek: 00:03:08

This is great. This is great. So this is a bonus episode prior to season five coming out that we are. We are deep in the middle of prepping for and recording for.

It's going to be a season like no other. So Sandra knows a little bit about that, but we're kind of keeping that on the theme of it under wraps for now. But it's going to be great.

It's going to be great. So, Lindsay, I think you have some initial questions for Sandra.

Lindsey: 00:03:37

Oh, yeah. This is going to be fun. Okay, Sandra, we're excited you're here.

And we thought that since at the time of this recording, it's currently summer, I'm a huge fan of summer. So we have some summer themed questions for you. Are you ready?

Sandra: 00:03:52

Let me have them.

Lindsey: 00:03:53

Okay. What is your best childhood summer memory?

Sandra: 00:03:58

Walking in the pasture with my horses and sitting on rocks as they munch to grass. And then we would all lie down on the pasture grass together.

Lindsey: 00:04:10

Wow, that sounds heavenly.

Creek: 00:04:12

That's a vibe.

Abram: 00:04:13

You're leading me into meditation right now.

Lindsey: 00:04:15

I know.

Abram: 00:04:15

Just give me a minute. Yeah.

Sandra: 00:04:17

You know, and it's really. That's the land taught me presence, as did the horses. So it's a beautiful memory for me. Thanks for asking. Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:04:30

Gosh. Thank you.

Abram: 00:04:31

Yeah. Next summer question for you here do you have and what if. So, what is your favorite summer vacation destination?

Sandra: 00:04:40

That's easy. Du Bois, Wyoming, at Ring Lake Ranch. I was just there last month. I've been there a lot.

I discovered it when I was in theology school, and it's where I am thoroughly restored. And the expanse of that landscape expands me.

Creek: 00:05:06

So horses there, too?

Sandra: 00:05:09

You got it, baby cakes. But I enjoy walking the land. But riding the horse, you know, every now and then you just have to smell a horse's neck. You just have to get in there.

Lindsey: 00:05:22

Okay. Adding that to my bucket list right now.

Abram: 00:05:26

Amazing.

Lindsey: 00:05:28

That was a surprise answer I was not prepared to hear. Wyoming.

Sandra: 00:05:32

Yes.

Lindsey: 00:05:33

I love that.

Sandra: 00:05:33

You know, I live in the south. I live in Asheville, North Carolina.

And while it doesn't get that hot here or humid, it's just nice to get a break from summer heat and experience cooler air and expanse. I love these old mountains, the Appalachians that I live in, they just hug me.

But there comes a time when you just need a little more elbow room, and that's the landscape that does that.

Creek: 00:05:59

For me every time I come back from the south and back into the midwest. That's. Yeah. That feeling of just. I can see now.

Sandra: 00:06:09

Yeah. Yeah. You get hugged, and then it's like you get opened.

Creek: 00:06:14

Yes.

Sandra: 00:06:16

Yeah.

Creek: 00:06:18

So, this next question, I'm hoping the horse theme doesn't continue. What's your favorite summertime barbecue item?

Sandra: 00:06:30

Right.

Creek: 00:06:31

Yeah.

Sandra: 00:06:33

You know, I do grill veggies and fish.

Creek: 00:06:37

Okay.

Sandra: 00:06:38

So there is nothing finer than some good rainbow trout from this area on the grill or an onion and butter grilled and.

Creek: 00:06:49

Mm.

Sandra: 00:06:51

Now, do each of you answer. Respond to these questions as well, or was that just a warm up?

Creek: 00:06:56

For me, this is just warm up. Who's getting to know you?

Lindsey: 00:06:59

Just you, baby cakes.

Sandra: 00:07:02

That's right. Okay. All right. Fair enough.

Creek: 00:07:04

Good. Yeah, we got. We got one more, and then we're gonna get into some more. Some more serious stuff.

Lindsey: 00:07:09

Okay. What is your preferred summer beverage?

Sandra: 00:07:13

Now, that would entail a lot of detail, but what I will say is champagne.

Creek: 00:07:26

Oh, okay.

Lindsey: 00:07:28

Now, I watch these classy, too.

Creek: 00:07:30

Details.

Sandra: 00:07:31

Wow.

Lindsey: 00:07:33

You're just surprising me.

Sandra: 00:07:37

There is always something to celebrate, and I think we don't celebrate enough. And I keep some champagne chilled, and I haven't had it in months, but the time will come soon to celebrate something.

And sometimes it's the little thing that happened in the day or with a group of people. But if we don't celebrate, we forget that our journey is one of joy.

And however we celebrate, and I say this to the organizations I work with, take time to pause. And even if it's a small success, name it. Otherwise, it becomes drudgery.

Creek: 00:08:20

Even in these fun questions, you're dropping nuggets. Nuggets of wisdom. I love this. I love this. So, again, we're celebrating your new book, the Enneagram map to your deeper self.

Sandra: 00:08:35

So living beyond your type.

Creek: 00:08:37

Living beyond your type, which is a big theme in that which we all really resonate with.

But in order to kind of back up a little bit into the book, I'd love to hear your own personal journey with the enneagram, the lineage that you came up in that sort of question.

Sandra: 00:08:57

Sure. Yeah. Thanks, cree. I'm gonna go back to Wyoming now.

So, when I was in theology school, my house in Asheville was rented, so I was looking for a place to go, and I thought I would be a chaplain in the National Park Service out there. My faculty advisor was on the board of Ring Lake Ranch, and he said, do you ride horses? And I said, I do.

He said, would you be a wrangler for ten weeks. And I said, are you serious? And he said, yes. And I said, of course. When out there, it was in 7 miles back on a dirt road.

No sound except for wind and coyotes. And it was fabulous.

But one morning that summer, I walked into the dining hall, and Sister Agnes, a sister of Loretta from Chicago, had a t shirt on that said, hi, I'm a one. And I said, sister Agnes, that must be the best. How can I be a one? And she left an Enneagram book.

And that was my first initial take on the enneagram. And when I came back to Emory, where I was in theology school, Jim Fowler, stages of faith.

James Fowler, he was an ethics professor there, and he had gotten into it. So he was doing this little Saturday workshop on it, which I went to. But from then on, it was a lot of reading until I decided to get.

I didn't decide to get trained. I wanted to go and study, do a week with Helen and David, Helen Palmer and David Daniels.

And one of the reasons they appealed to me was the panel methodology. And in theology school, feminist theologies was really important to me.

I mean, I learned that I was both oppressor and oppressed and what all that entailed, and that all voices need to be heard. And it felt like that teaching methodology, using panels, was just right for me.

And I have learned so much in the 24 years I've taught this from panels. People surprise us. Yeah.

So from there, I, of course, became involved in IEA, the International Enneagram association, and, you know, learned from Russ Hudson and Tom Condon, and, you know, lately a little from Bee Chestnut. But I have moved into the diamond approach school, where I've been for about five years now.

And Sandra Maitrey leads the group, and she has become just an amazing model of presence and teaching. And so much of that school, Hamid, or Omas, as his pen name is, and Sandra Maitrey are just.

It feels like they're just running through me, and they're books. I mean, Sandra Maitre, spiritual dimensions of the enneagram is my Bible, and his most recent keys to the enneagram is just fabulous.

So they've been great shapers of how I now teach the enneagram.

Creek: 00:12:05

And can you settle? Is it Maitrey or Maitrey?

Sandra: 00:12:08

I think she responds to both.

Creek: 00:12:10

Okay. Okay.

Sandra: 00:12:11

So I typically say maitre.

Creek: 00:12:13

Okay, all right, all right. Yeah, I've heard it both ways, and so.

Sandra: 00:12:17

I know. Me too.

Creek: 00:12:18

Awesome. All right.

Lindsey: 00:12:20

That's wonderful. I love hearing your story. And it was interesting because you were so generous to give us your book to preview so we could prepare for this interview.

And I took it with me on a very, very long travel day that I had. And I had also taken keys to the enneagram with me. So I started reading keys to the enneagram on the plane.

I got, like, halfway through it, and then I had this super long layover, and I started reading your book, and I was just blown away that I just randomly happened to start reading Almas's book before yours. And I could see the threads of his teaching in your work, but also in your own voice. It felt different. It sounded different.

So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your teachers, their influence on you, how they show up in this book.

Sandra: 00:13:10

Well, for folks who read the book, they will find me quoting David Daniels, a bit of my mentor, and a nod to Helen Palmer occasionally. But I think it's been Sandra Maitrey that's really helped me understand that we are more than we believe ourselves to be.

And that's really the premise of the book. And so I call the Enneagram the small story of us, especially the ego ideal. That's the small story of us.

But because this gets laminated onto us at a very young age, we think that's who we are, and it is not.

And I think with the help of 19 guest writers who, two writers from every type, one is mother, daughter, they kind of demonstrate that we can move beyond the type. We can move beyond the limiting pattern, and they bring a lot of heart to the book.

So, you know, I can't separate myself from the land, from horses, from Helen and David, others, and especially Sandra. They've been profound influences on me. I'm so grateful.

We just, you know, Thomas Mertone read once said, our successes and failures are never our own. We're just surrounded by folks who have shared themselves with us and remain. Some of them remain in our hearts, and those folks do for me.

Lindsey: 00:14:55

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you.

Abram: 00:14:58

Yeah, that's really cool. I love that. You mentioned you brought on 19. That's a big number.

I mean, I know there's a lot of types, but 19 guest writers, which really, I feel like is a tip of the hat to the narrative approach, which you value so much because it centers the voice of the person, which I feel like liberates the concept of the type. I'm curious. It looked like you had a thought there.

Sandra: 00:15:27

I just wanted to say thank you, because that's exactly what that is, bringing in others voices. And it's a diverse group, women of color, white women, cisgender, lesbian, bisexual, non binary, jewish, Muslim, Unitarian Christian.

I mean, it's just a range. And for me, I've had to read. I have had to read this book many times in the editing process.

And, you know, the first round, I thought, okay, I'm going to read this whole book. And please, I hope I still love it, you know? And I sat down after I had finished the whole thing, and I said, yes, I'm still with it. It just.

Those writers brought a lot of heart to it. And many of them, through their stories, are demonstrating life beyond type.

The seven who stays present with a very ill spouse, the tender hearted eight. There's a. I have two people of every type in the type chapters, but in the eight chapter, I have three, one being a mother daughter eight.

And it's just beautiful how they share their dynamic coming from the same type. I think the mother writes, she went back to her journal to write some about this in the book.

And she said, I remember Laurel before she was two, practicing in her bed at night. The different tones of no. So there's some fun pieces in it. Just some real beautiful pieces. Yeah.

Creek: 00:17:16

Wow.

So along those lines, I saw, I mean, our own conversations prior to this interview, along with going through the book, you mention a lot of being more than your type on this podcast. We find it really important to define our terms. So how do you define type?

And why is understanding that you're more than or not just your type important to understand when it comes for. Comes to growth?

Sandra: 00:17:47

Thank you. Thank you for that question. Our type is another word for our ego structure. It's automatic patterns.

And this is as we learn a done deal by somewhere between five and seven years old. And so we become, let's just say we live in lockstep with these patterns.

We don't know that we are, but as we age and pay attention, start turning inward, we see the patterns more clearly. And, you know, the enneagram is a map of those patterns.

And it's the most powerful gift, because if I have a map of the patterns that are limiting me, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'm going to set up some counter patterns or counter practices to those so that I can, you know, like, if type is laminated on me, I want to get some distance between me and that lamination. And I think that's what good Enneagram teachers do. They find ways, they find the right questions to ask. Like, if.

If your ego ideal is I'm unique and special, then who are you beyond that, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And so if you don't mind me continuing and engaging you in a little exercise, of course.

Lindsey: 00:19:23

Oh, I love it.

Sandra: 00:19:26

So I use this a lot in my workshops, but could each of you remember a time when you were in awe? It might be a birthing, a dying natural world, music, whatever.

And think of two or three words that you would use to describe yourself in that moment. What would those words be?

Creek: 00:19:56

I would say open, buzzing, and elated.

Sandra: 00:20:07

Thank you.

Abram: 00:20:08

The first thing that comes to mind is the four times my wife has given birth to our kids. And it just brings immediate tears to my eyes because it's just the most unreal out of this world experience for me. I think those words are.

They don't really seem to actually do justice to the experience, but just the deepest kind of gratitude I can think of. And just amazed, absolutely awestruck at how strong and how powerful and amazing my wife is in being able to do that. And inspired by her bravery.

Sandra: 00:20:59

Thank you.

Lindsey: 00:21:02

I feel like my words are complicated. I don't understand them entirely, but I'm gonna go with them and be honest. I felt small. I felt connected and cherished, and I felt ashamed.

Creek: 00:21:20

Oh.

Sandra: 00:21:23

Okay. All right.

Lindsey: 00:21:25

Oh, yeah.

Sandra: 00:21:26

I would say that I, in those moments, feel expansive, connected, like there's almost no boundary between me and the tree or me and you. So in that moment, there is no type.

And so what we find is we, presence arises because something has startled us into this moment, be it beauty, be it mystery, childbirth, whatever. But we are here right now, and not only are we present to ourselves, but we go receptive to receive what's happening.

And when we go receptive, then that opens us up for presence to arise. And there's no type in presence. So when I'm in presence, you get Sandra, and when I'm not, you get the patterns of type eight.

And that was a Russ Hudson teaching at one of the IEA conferences not too long ago that I was so grateful for. And he's a diamond approach student, too. And so it just ties in with how Sandra teaches it. We're more alike than different.

We were more alike than different. So I invite people before they read each of the companion voices. I call them their stories, to find themselves in those stories.

Creek: 00:23:03

Can I ask a clarifying question?

When you say you show up as Sandra without the h structure, in my experience, the limitation, necessarily, of my forness is not there, but the gifts of it. The things that I've practiced over time, the way that I curate, point out, cultivate, beauty show up.

So can you help kind of clarify that difference?

Sandra: 00:23:42

You know, that kind of thing may be more a quality of your essence. I mean, I hear that it's a gift of four. I know some sixes who do that rather well, too. So it's not that only fours can do that.

Creek: 00:23:59

Whoa. Now.

Sandra: 00:24:02

That just spies in the face of unique and stuff.

Lindsey: 00:24:04

That's not what you wanted to hear.

Sandra: 00:24:09

But you see, in essence, it doesn't matter because we all have access to so many gifts.

Lindsey: 00:24:16

Yeah.

Sandra: 00:24:17

It's just that we're not overusing them. And when we are in type patterns, we will overuse our strengths and not grow the other strengths within us. Yeah. Like, from our resource points.

You know, there's strengths from our resource points that we can really mine and grow.

Abram: 00:24:41

What I think I hear you saying is, in the moments of awe, our conditioning, the way our conditioning can constrict us, our awareness is kind of. That filter is less, or at least the. What's the language? Like, the windshield has been cleared and we're able to see more clearly.

Sandra: 00:25:06

Sure.

In the diamond approach, they teach, they really go into the egoic patterns and wanting to peel back the veils that these patterns put on us so that the radiance of our souls shine. And in those moments of awe, joy, and our grandeur are there.

Lindsey: 00:25:34

Absolutely.

Sandra: 00:25:36

Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:25:37

Yeah. I think that with so many things in the enneagram, we experience this both and. Right.

We're constantly trying to find this beautiful space of both and instead of getting stuck in duality.

And so I love how you're talking about being more than your type, not being constrained by it, but also, I think what I noticed in reading your book is that your eightness was bringing so much to the table as an offering to all of us. And so I wondered if you could kind of talk about that. How. How do your strength show up in helping people as you write this book?

Sandra: 00:26:21

You know, this was a really good exercise for me, writing this book, because I never thought about writing a book, never considered myself a writer. And through a series of events, I started writing one. But when I came to my desk to write, I didn't write until I got really present with myself.

And then I pulled the words through my heart. Now, that's as an eight, my least accessible brain. And I had to have all three centers online.

So, yes, I was in type during some of that, and sometimes not. Lindsey. Yeah. I think there is a. If I start something, I normally finish it. So I wasn't going to give up on myself.

Or the writers that had written for this book. And, you know, a part of writing and publishing is hearing no a lot. And I. Yeah. So it's, I had a community supporting me in all of my nose.

Lindsey: 00:27:44

That's so important.

Sandra: 00:27:46

So important. Yeah. So I think it's important. And part of our growth work is to attend to that least accessible center of intelligence.

And when I do that, and, you know, sometimes I would slip, I had five readers to read before it even went to editors.

And I had a woman who's in her eighties now, who's written books, and she would every now and then call me and say, you're a little too direct here, Sandra. Soften that. Oh, and she was spot on. She was spot on. And I just needed to hear that. And so I sat down and went into my heart and rewrote it.

Abram: 00:28:26

That's amazing, though, that you were open to that. That's, I mean, a sign of a level of, you know, how well one can hold eightness. Am I right?

Sandra: 00:28:37

Yeah.

Well, how well I can be, Sandra, and how much I wanted to be tender in this book, because I think, you know, if people know that I lead with eight, and many who buy the book will, as a couple of my friends said, did you really write this? Because, you know, in the everyday play and gathering with friends, my eight can be very much alive. But they saw the heart in it, I suppose.

Abram: 00:29:18

Yeah.

So moving on into a section of the book that I think is my personal favorite is you talk a bit about growth being the movement from resistance to allowing. And you're talking about some dualities here, which is, I just love the world of duality, personally.

But you mentioned, you seem to articulate this well. I wonder if you could just talk about the dualities of the types from allowing or resisting to allowing, just briefly touch on those.

Sandra: 00:29:50

I would love to share before I get into that Arumi poem that actually you may have read in the book, it ends with this, and it goes like this. When I run after what I think I want, my days are a furnace of stress and anxiety. If I sit in my own place of patience, what I need flows to me.

And without pain from this, I understand that what I want also wants me, is looking for me and attracting me. There is a great secret here for anyone who can grasp it.

Abram: 00:30:40

Beautiful.

Sandra: 00:30:41

I would say, abram, that I, as one leading with eye effort, you know, I see the task oriented types as one, three and eight. We wake up with a list of tasks. We stay on them. It's as theologian and mystic Howard Thurman said, it's deadly magic to get something done.

So given that was a part of me and my worldview for eight, the world is a wild jungle and destroys the weak. You know, something like that. We all have a variation of this, so it sets eights up for you're either with me or against me.

And so years ago, I was just in a very hard place, and I looked at that worldview and I wrote a statement that I didn't believe, which was, the universe is supportive and people want to be kind. And I committed because I was in enough pain.

I committed to saying that to myself three times a day for three months, not as an affirmation or mantra, but as a reminder to shift my attention and look someplace else, because our ego structure or Enneagram type has us looking for exactly what it wants in place to keep us small. So after probably three weeks, I was seeing some evidence of this. And after two months, it was just everywhere.

And after the third month, my armor softened. There wasn't a fight. There was nothing I needed to be protected or to protect.

David Daniels used to say at Enneagram trainings that when Albert Einstein was on his deathbed, as they say, and I think this is a true story, that his students, colleagues came and said, al, is there any other question you have on your mind that you really haven't worked with? And his response was, I'm wondering if the universe is friendly, because if it is, 95% of our effort is wasted energy.

And so now I look for ways I get carried. And I've done that now for two years. It's been my focus. We get carried. It's a big secret, but we get carried.

And so it's helped me lessen effort, slow down a little bit. And the lust, the vice of eight is lust, which means now. And that's a terrible thing to have to decide or act or whatever right now.

So seeing that I get a carried often, I'm learning the word later. Oh, that's been quite. It's quite an accomplishment for me to practice later. I want the Dairy Queen blizzard now.

Lindsey: 00:33:59

No, wait, later.

Sandra: 00:34:02

Yeah. See how you feel later. Right. And, of course, that's not a big deal for another type like it is me.

So that's why, you know, any kind of practice or spiritual practice needs to take in the type structure for it to be effective.

Abram: 00:34:22

Yeah. Would you mind touching on the other types and how they move from resisting to allowing. Just briefly?

Sandra: 00:34:30

Yeah. Let me just keep going with body type.

Abram: 00:34:34

It's really beautiful. Yeah.

Sandra: 00:34:36

Thanks, April. And so for nine, and again, for all of us, no matter our type, we live mainly in dualities. Now, that moment in awe, that's a Bothan moment.

It may even be more than both, Ann.

And if I have a major decision, I sit down and remember a moment of awe and I put myself in that place and then see what the decision is like from that perspective without the duality. Right? So every type will have more than what I'm going to name.

But these were some that I see as pretty major in working with types in a number of settings for a while. So for nine, the duality of accommodate or resisted, can suppress myself, you know, the present self of nine.

So that nines, as long as they stay in that duality, may have trouble claiming who I am and what I want, right? So it's either the merge or the countermerge, you know, going along, or plantar fasciitis coming right up, because I've got my heels dug in, right?

And so the honoring of themselves is, of course, their holy virtue action on behalf of me. When they do that, they're real teachers in love.

And then for type one, you know, fair, unfair, or right, wrong moves ones away from accepting what is right now. And so I actually work with a lot of ones. It's a type that can feel the pain of the type structure.

It's like, well, who are you if you're not making something better, if you're not improving, who are you? And that's going beyond the type. Right ones move away from accepting what is while maintaining what is different is wrong.

And so it's cozying up to five right ways or difference. Acknowledging that holy middle ground is quite freeing for body types.

And for twos, approval or rejection could be belonging or rejection creates a blind spot for self care. Because in looking at that, I'm always efforting. There's the striving, right?

I'm always efforting to seek to get approval or to belong or not to be rejected. Course two, two, five and eight are the rejection sensitive type. So it's just right there.

And for type two, receiving support from others can restore, help restore twos to themselves and into healthy relationship, a clean giving. And then they become the genuine givers. For type three, it's accomplished or unimpressive.

And of course, that keeps threes on the cycle of accomplishing. And the question there is, well, who are you aside from accomplishing if you lead with three? Again, trying to separate self from the type?

And so when threes are in that duality, it creates a blindness to the genuine beingness of a three. When threes land in that, there's no performance, there's nothing to accomplish, because I'm here. I am, and that's enough.

And if you're type four, the duality of ordinary or extraordinary can create a blindness to depth and simplicity. And when fours can land in simplicity, they're probably the virtue of equanimity has emerged.

And that's when four's tests are so kind and steady and calm. And in type five, we find the duality of, you could say, abundance or scarcity I'm using in the book.

The dualities of boundaries or depletion creates a blindness to abundance and gratefulness. Often when I'm working with fives, I will ask, where in your life do you have more than enough? Can you believe in more than you need?

More than enough? Right.

For type six, a duality of certain, or predictability and uncertainty creates a blind spot for trusting the unfolding, knowing, I've got me to stand on. When sixes trust themselves, they can move into the unfolding and welcome uncertainty. I'm going to come back to certainty in just a moment.

But let me speak to seven. The duality of options or limitations create a blindness to the richness and the freedom that's right here, now.

And so the need to move on, to have something new or be stimulated differently, denies sevens the preciousness of this moment, the reverence of this moment. So all of us, it's not just six, but all of us want certainty in our lives. And some want it more than others.

As I've worked with my own need for certainty, I have found that it's when I am uncertain that I'm more alive. Certainty deadens us, and we think we know it creates a duality.

And, friends, there's just no present in certainty because it's either or, and there's no learning in either or.

And so how do we learn that uncertainty has an aliveness, a creativity, a mystery about it, and if we can trust that we'll be okay no matter what, it's a beautiful place to be because there's so much possibility. Yeah.

Abram: 00:41:15

Damn it.

Creek: 00:41:20

I'm a fan of uncertainty, for sure. Yeah. Drive some of my friends insane, because I'm just like. I'm one of those guys at the party. It's like, well, actually.

Sandra: 00:41:34

Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Yeah.

Creek: 00:41:40

So along these lines of the dualities, we noticed Sandra Maitrey actually wrote the foreword to your book. And one of the lines that she wrote was this book provides sound guidance in addressing this yearning to open ourselves to more of what we are.

Could you talk about for a moment, a time that you noticed this yearning, she articulates and how you responded to it. It's kind of an example of a practice that our listeners could engage in or something like that.

Sandra: 00:42:18

I was lucky at a very young age to have a relationship with the land that I did. And in that relationship, and in the presence of being with trees and rocks and horses and land, I felt like I was a part. I belonged. I was apart.

And so when I felt I didn't belong, it just. It didn't feel right. I knew that that wasn't right.

So in moments of awe, in stillness, with the land sitting in my morning time, if I drop into stillness, there are times when I have felt that there is something in me cheering me on. These days, I'm naming it as essence. I don't know. I don't really care what its name is, but there is, and I think this is the diamond approach work.

There's just so much more of us. Reality is so much more than we think it is. And I don't want to limit myself.

As I say in workshops and trainings, we're not in this earth school very long. I don't want to die in lockstep with patterns. I really would like to be as free as I can be in the little time I have left.

And if I can continue presence practices, I think that's going to help.

I don't know if that really answered your question, but I think the presence practice is an amazing practice because we can't really observe ourselves without it. And it's our inner witness, inner observer that allows us to change, to see the patterns. Yeah, it's kind of simple, really.

Abram: 00:44:32

Yeah. The thread that I think I see throughout each of your type dualities is a lack of receptivity.

Sandra: 00:44:40

Thank you. Yes.

Abram: 00:44:44

Which is, I think, what is hindering us from having these awestruck moments more often. And I was just wondering if maybe you were able to put some sort of receptivity practice to not go through all the nine types again.

Maybe just three of them for one for each center. If there's some kind of receptivity practice.

Sandra: 00:45:00

Well, let me just do one in general for everybody. So when I am offering individual sessions, I always start with some kind of grounding practice.

And oftentimes I use gratefulness because that can be a gateway into spiritual experience. And I start it by just saying, let's get present to ourselves, find ourselves, just consider something that's already occurred today.

This could be at: 09:00

The next part of the gratefulness practice is name something about your own being ness that you appreciate and name that in your heart. And then we take a breath and then for 1 minute, I invite. I invite them to sit in gratefulness without an object.

When we're grateful for something, we go to the head. Gratefulness resides in the heart.

And so if I can sit in gratefulness without an object and just let it flow, let it permeate me so that I almost become gratefulness, the body shifts and softens and we're receptive.

Abram: 00:46:31

Yeah. Well, I just want to thank you for inviting us into gratefulness earlier by having us do an awe recall.

Sandra: 00:46:42

Those are powerful moments. It's like we need to go out and find and just be prepared for moments of awe. And that's the thing about my own type structure. One, three, and eight.

We're so focused on the task that we're not open to surprise.

And so those of us who lead with those types, it's just so important to be open to the spider web and windowsill or the hummingbird at the feeder for the way the light is on the tree.

Lindsey: 00:47:20

Beautiful.

You mentioned a moment ago you referenced this Limited perSpective, and I'm probably going to mess it up, but you said something like, reality is so much more than what we can see in the given moment. And so I wondered if you could give a prompt to each type that would help them to reframe and Kind of move beyond their own Limited Perspective.

Sandra: 00:47:46

Yes. And part of that is how the type structure wants us to see reality. You know, a type seven will see the most interesting thing.

A type six will see trouble, perhaps. What could go wrong? Those are strengths until they get overused.

So for each type to know where your ego structure or enneagram type is directing your focus, that's a start.

But, you know, Lindsey, what I've had to do for myself to get out of fighting air boxing air some days is to say to myself, what do you want to find today?

Because what we scan for, we find a, you know, sixes will always find what could go wrong and ones will always find the error and sevens will always find a positive possibility. So my focus is just, it doesn't find nice things. You know, some days I'll say I want to be surprised. Today I want to find delight.

Today I want to look for it. And it's a practice to just remind yourself, where's the delight?

Right now we make our own reality depending on how we want to see life, our lives, ourselves.

And, you know, we can also ingest meditation and going into our inner life and being curious about when my body's clutched, to go in and stay with it and see where that takes me.

which I've worked with since: 0809

But wherever that emotion is in the body, to locate it, go into it with curiosity and non judging presence and see what happens. And I think it was Elizabeth Kubler Ross, in her phenomenal book said, a real emotion lasts about 90 seconds to two minutes.

After that, conditioned mind takes over and we've got a story attached to the emotion that's a train wreck right there. But if we can drop the story that the ego structure wants us to keep and stay with the felts, this is where the body will save us.

Don't stay with the felt sense of the emotion, focused attention there, it will release. And you know what we're left with? The quality of our essence. It's a miracle. And that's alchemy right there. That's alchemy.

If I can stay with that emotion, no matter how horrific. And I will tell you, one of my greatest moments was when I went into my disappointment. I just knew this publisher was going to say yes.

And, oh, my gosh, it was a no. And I was like, I had the best bottle of wine on the kitchen counter ready, and my friends were ready to, and it was a no. And I felt so disappointed.

And quite frankly, as an eight, I never wanted to feel disappointed because, I don't know, it just felt more vulnerable than sad or grief because it meant I wanted something and couldn't get it. And so that taught me the thing I feared the most emotionally was disappointment. And so I went right into it.

I sobbed and I sobbed, and I stayed with the feeling of it. And this amazing love embraced me after about two or three minutes. And that's if we'll go into and through a whole new world awaits us.

And so that process I have in.

Creek: 00:52:23

That last chapter, thank you so much. I wanna highlight, especially, like, for the listener of how many times there's a lot of things we can do to grow as a human.

But sometimes the hardest, and sometimes the thing that we don't want to do because it's the least sexy, is to just observe, like you mentioned, with the prompts for each type of. Sometimes it's just good enough to observe yourself seeing the world in a certain way and be like, am I. What am I missing here?

What's, what could also be true, and that is you don't have to sit down and journal for 2 hours. That can be a five second thing as you're walking to the laundromat, you know, and every little bit helps.

Sandra: 00:53:18

Beautiful.

Creek: 00:53:19

Yeah. So, once again, Sandra, thank you so much. Um, this was truly a wonderful experience talking with you today.

Sandra: 00:53:29

Thank you.

Creek: 00:53:30

And, uh, first, we want to remind everyone once again, first of all, keep track of fathoms. We're coming up to season five. Um, but, uh, we have some surprise that are somewhat related to this episode.

But, sandra, before we go, can you give us a quick elevator pitch as to why people should go buy your book, where they can buy it, where they can connect with you, where they can talk with you, book time with you. All the things. Yeah. How do people get to you?

Sandra: 00:54:01

Okay. Thank you. So I'm on Instagram sandrasmith, alchemy works. My website is alchemyworksevents.

The book comes out September 3, and you can purchase it at your local independent bookstore. You can purchase it at Barnes and Noble, Amazon. I mean, it's out there for pre order now, but it comes out on September 3.

And on my website, on the author page. Going to be in a list of cities doing some book tour. And if you're in one of those cities, you know, come and join us exploring the Enneagram. Yeah.

Creek: 00:54:45

What are some of those cities?

Sandra: 00:54:47

Well, I'll start here in Asheville and then head to Atlanta and then Birmingham and Houston and New Orleans and Greensboro, North Carolina. And then in November, I'll be in Boulder.

Creek: 00:55:01

No, Wyoming.

Sandra: 00:55:05

There's a possibility anyway.

Creek: 00:55:09

And I assume you're going to be riding horses as your book tour, like. Yeah, this is from city to city. Yeah.

Lindsey: 00:55:16

It's like a Pokemon into the bookshop.

Creek: 00:55:18

Yes.

Sandra: 00:55:20

That's a dangerous image right there. Yeah.

Creek: 00:55:24

That's amazing. Sandra, once again, thank you so much. We really appreciate you just doing your work as a person and then deciding to share that with us.

So thank you once again.

Sandra: 00:55:38

I'm really touched to be with you three. Thank you.

Creek: 00:55:44

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We are so honored to be on this journey with you, discovering our inner depths one fathom at a time.