Shownotes
In this episode of The Art of Imperfect Adulting, Amy Stone speaks with Ann Evanston—Bay Area-based self-love expert and coach—to explore relationship crossroads, personal transformation, and what happens after a breach of trust in a long-term partnership. Ann shares her very personal journey of staying and doing the work in her marriage after discovering her partner was seeking connection elsewhere, offering a unique, candid perspective on forgiveness, rebuilding, and the ongoing “practice” of loving partnership.
About the Guest:
Ann M. Evanston, MA is a Warrior-Preneur, master-level performance coach, and unapologetic champion of women in their 40s and 50s who are done putting themselves last. With over two decades of experience helping women find their voice, own their power, and take up space—Ann leads the Self-Love Evolution movement, guiding midlife women to reclaim their worth, desires, and personal fire. She’s been featured in The Huffington Post, Spark & Hustle with Tory Johnson, and named one of the “Top 6” consultants by About.com. Ann is the author of The Self-Love Evolution for Women Guide & Journal and Unscripted: How Women Thrive, as well as several high-impact eBooks for bold businesswomen ready to break the rules and rise.
Main Topics Covered:
- Discovering betrayal and the immediate aftermath.
- How Ann and her husband rebuilt trust and connection.
- The importance and process of intentional relationship work (“the practice”).
- The impact of shame, societal judgment, and making unconventional choices in love.
- The evolving nature of long-term relationships—sex, menopause, and continuing to choose each other.
- Ann’s framework for self-love and community-building for women.
Quote from the Episode:
“You may think we’re this perfect couple, but you don’t know what we go through every day to be that couple.” — Ann Evanston
Timestamps: [00:00:05] Intro and welcome; Ann’s Bay Area home and garden passion
[00:02:45] Ann’s relationship backstory and living situation
[00:09:04] Discovering her husband’s online activities
[00:11:20] Addressing betrayal, confrontation, and mutual decision to rebuild
[00:12:40] The experience and shock of discovery
[00:23:16] Intentionally rebuilding—why forgiveness comes before trust
[00:24:29] Creating weekly date nights, “the practice,” and intentional communication
[00:29:24] Ann’s menopause journey and changes in partnership
[00:32:06] Disney’s myth of “happily ever after” vs. real relationships
[00:36:11] Ann’s choice to stay, fear of judgment, and supporting women’s choices
[00:44:47] Ann’s current work, retreats, and how listeners can connect
Special Offer from the Guest:
Free excerpt of Ann’s book The Self-Love Evolution for Women https://connect.warrior-preneur.com/SLE
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Transcripts
Ann Evanston. Welcome to the art of imperfect adulting. I'm happy
Speaker:you're here today. Are you ready for a fun chat?
Speaker:I am so ready. Thank you, Amy, for having me. I'm super
Speaker:excited about what we're going to talk about today. That's good. I'm
Speaker:excited, too. I start all of my interviews by
Speaker:asking my guests what part of the world they call home. So where is your
Speaker:home these days? I live in
Speaker:the San Francisco Bay area, just about 22 miles outside of
Speaker:San Francisco. I've been here. I chased a boy to California. He's part of
Speaker:the story today. And I've been here ever
Speaker:since. About 25 years. Beautiful. I love
Speaker:San Francisco. I have finally conceded to myself
Speaker:that the weather in San Francisco proper, I
Speaker:do not know how to pack for that and that I am probably better.
Speaker:I just have to consider, I mean, I moved for the warmth and I just
Speaker:have to remember it that that's that I don't even know how to pack for
Speaker:the San Francisco cold and wet. I don't do well with it. I
Speaker:love it. I love it. I love it. So the next I have one more
Speaker:warmup question before we get to the topic of the day. We
Speaker:say laughter is the best medicine. Share with me something
Speaker:that you can count on to be smile
Speaker:and joy in your life.
Speaker:Oh, I, you know, that's almost a hard question because I
Speaker:believe in happiness and joy and laughter in everything I do and
Speaker:be. And if it's not happening, get rid of it fast.
Speaker:Okay. That doesn't mean that there aren't hard things in life. That doesn't mean that
Speaker:there aren't difficult challenges that I go through personally, professionally, in my
Speaker:life, without a doubt. Yet day to day life should be filled
Speaker:with joy and laughter. People who make you laugh and smile smile,
Speaker:you know, especially people who remind you not to take yourself too seriously
Speaker:and laugh at yourself. That's probably one of my favorite things every day.
Speaker:All right. So just general laughter and not taking yourself too
Speaker:seriously. I love that answer. I do. So the topic of the
Speaker:day, we're going to talk about one of those serious things. We're going to talk
Speaker:about a time when you were faced with a decision in your
Speaker:marriage, in your relationship, and you shared with me the
Speaker:start of this story, which is very, very compelling.
Speaker:Going to share it. You shared that you got an email asking
Speaker:you if this was your husband. So that
Speaker:came in an email. You say your heart sank because he was
Speaker:exploring meeting other women online. My first
Speaker:question for you is how long Ago. Are
Speaker:we talking about when was this happened? Oh,
Speaker:yeah. You think I would know an exact date? I'm going
Speaker:to say over 12 years ago. So quite a. Quite a long time.
Speaker:Yeah, 12, 13 years ago. Yeah. And we'll come back to it in
Speaker:present day. But I don't like to be the person who holding out big dramatic
Speaker:things. Part of the story is that this relationship is still in existence. You
Speaker:guys are still in a relationship. This is not. This is not a story.
Speaker:There are plenty of those stories that I share, but this is not a story
Speaker:of an end to the relationship. So before I go too
Speaker:deep on the actual story of this, I want to just ask a
Speaker:couple of questions to give some concept. Concept and some background so that we're all
Speaker:talking about the same thing. How do. I'm looking
Speaker:forward to this one because you gave us a little bit of a preview for
Speaker:this. How did you meet your husband?
Speaker:We met in a bar. I love it.
Speaker:You know, when everybody was telling me, you need to go to church to find
Speaker:a good man. We met in a bar in
Speaker:Seattle. At the time he was going to grad school at University of Washington and
Speaker:I was employed up in. In there. And
Speaker:that very night we just had a connection right from the get go.
Speaker:So it started right away. We were with each other every chance we could be.
Speaker:He's originally here from the Bay Area. His mother
Speaker:got a call. He was trying to get work up there because we were so
Speaker:attached. But his mother's
Speaker:cancer had come back and he felt like he needed to come home. So
Speaker:he came back here to get work and I followed about six
Speaker:months later. So that's how we originally met.
Speaker:Very nice. So and how long had you guys been together?
Speaker:When you don't have to be super precise, but roughly how long had you
Speaker:been together when you got the email? When this happened in the relationship?
Speaker:Yeah. So, you know, we did about even moving down here. We did
Speaker:about eight years of dating. Right. And
Speaker:all those kind of things happened before we got serious and moved in together.
Speaker:So, you know, I met him in 1997, just to give you
Speaker:a sense. And then it was about seven
Speaker:years before this email came that we moved in
Speaker:together and said, we're a couple, we're serious about each other.
Speaker:We're in commitment. It wasn't marriage at
Speaker:that point. We were big believers that commitment isn't a piece of paper.
Speaker:Commitment is a choice. Yet we were
Speaker:living together every day. Right. Grocery shopping, paying bills,
Speaker:sharing bank accounts. All the things that a committed couple
Speaker:would Do. Okay, so. And that. That was the
Speaker:sort of. The next thing was just a little more information about the construct of
Speaker:your family. Like, are you. Are you married? Do you have kids?
Speaker:Pets, favorite plants? Like, what's. What's the house look like?
Speaker:Yeah, as much or as little as. You want to tell. You don't have to.
Speaker:Just to give us an idea, it is. He and I, when we met,
Speaker:he had children from another relationship. Okay. So they're
Speaker:very grown. Right. In terms of that. He also
Speaker:had two German shepherds from the Seeing eye dog school up
Speaker:here in the Bay Area, or rejects, as they would call them.
Speaker:So very well trained, but just not good enough for the job, if you will.
Speaker:Had some quirky habits. And we ended up importing two more German
Speaker:shepherds. Those were our babies. Okay. In terms of choice of
Speaker:children, the biggest thing probably interesting about our
Speaker:home situation is we actually live in the home he grew up in.
Speaker:Oh, interesting. Okay. Yes. So, you know, with
Speaker:his mom passing, unfortunately, at a very young age
Speaker:through probate and all of that, the probationary period and all of that, we
Speaker:were gifted the house. It had a fire,
Speaker:and we completely gutted the house. We completely remodeled it to make it our
Speaker:own. And we have a huge yard. We
Speaker:actually have a 9,000 square foot space that we have converted completely
Speaker:to food. Wow. Yeah. And this is our
Speaker:17th year in. We grow food all year, high density year
Speaker:round. So we grow food in the winter, we grow food in the spring
Speaker:and summer. We harvest it. We tell
Speaker:people all the time, I haven't bought a hot sauce, a salsa, a barbecue
Speaker:sauce, an enchilada sauce. You name a sauce. If I can make it from the
Speaker:garden, we make it. We can it. We use that here. So that's
Speaker:our big passion together, is growing the food and
Speaker:sharing. Would you call that, like. Would you call
Speaker:that like an urban homestead? Yeah, urban garden, urban homestead,
Speaker:absolutely. Even our front yard. So it's fun to watch people walk by and
Speaker:realize there's food growing in the front yard. That's amazing. One of the.
Speaker:I have. I love plants, but very sadly,
Speaker:am not very good at growing them. It's actually. It's a joke in my
Speaker:house. I'm good at keeping people and pets alive,
Speaker:thankfully. But I. And I, Every few years
Speaker:I try it again and I buy plants and I lean into it and
Speaker:have not yet cracked this nugget.
Speaker:My mom is a longtime gardener, and
Speaker:when I was first living on my own, she would come over and
Speaker:resuscitate my, like, spider plants and aloe I mean, I
Speaker:like the basics. And one day she said to me, she
Speaker:said, you know, am. Some people just buy flowers
Speaker:and when they die, they throw them out. I was
Speaker:horribly insulted, but I currently have a, like a dead
Speaker:lemon tree down, like outside that I trying to.
Speaker:Trying to not be offended that I've yet again had this happen. It's not my
Speaker:strength, but I do. I am very, very big fan of
Speaker:it. But for the moment, I continue to buy my food
Speaker:at the market. Okay. So. All right. So
Speaker:you shared with me before we had this conversation
Speaker:on the intake form that you feel like the choice you
Speaker:made as a part of this situation, as a part of this
Speaker:scenario in your relationship was unpopular and maybe not even
Speaker:normal. Share with us a little bit more about how
Speaker:you decided to do what you did and,
Speaker:and, and what it was. So,
Speaker:you know, when it happened. Of course I'm going to confront
Speaker:it. There's nothing else you can do but confront it. I
Speaker:guess there's other choices yet. To me, that was the choice to say
Speaker:what's going on? Because when I got the email, it was pretty
Speaker:easy to ask her a couple questions and then figure out where it was happening.
Speaker:And then digging around could find that. Yeah, I
Speaker:know my husband's handwriting or prose, how he
Speaker:writes. Right. I. I can see his pictures in
Speaker:there. I know that's him. So it was obvious.
Speaker:There was no lie. There was nothing to lie about. It was very true that
Speaker:it was happening. And to me, the only thing to do
Speaker:was to confront it
Speaker:and not confront it because I needed
Speaker:him to tell me the truth. Confront it because
Speaker:I wanted to know were we done or not?
Speaker:Yeah, that's what I really wanted to know is
Speaker:what? Is he done done? Is he gone? Is he
Speaker:looking to leave, period? Right. Like he's over me. Because
Speaker:in my mind, we had such a strong bond and such
Speaker:great love. You know, if he's gone, I
Speaker:need to know that because I gotta put my big girl pants on and figure
Speaker:out what I'm gonna do. Yeah.
Speaker:So that was really the reason for
Speaker:approaching him right away that evening. I didn't wait,
Speaker:I didn't hem. And ha. I didn't feel like I needed to talk to my
Speaker:girlfriends to hear their opinions. I felt like I needed to
Speaker:ask the question. And, and I said, you know,
Speaker:so are you wanting to end it? And he said, I'm. I'm
Speaker:one foot out the door. That was exactly his response to me. I'm
Speaker:one foot out the door. And I said, well,
Speaker:does that mean that you're willing to work on it to get it
Speaker:back in the door, you know, do you want to fix
Speaker:us for it to, you know, for you to want to
Speaker:be here and. And be loyal and committed to
Speaker:us again? And he paused for a
Speaker:millisecond and said, yes, I want to do that. All
Speaker:right. All right, very good. So we're going to talk more about that
Speaker:in a second, but I just want to quickly talk directly to the people who
Speaker:are listening and watching and invite them into the conversation. So when this
Speaker:episode goes live, I encourage you to join us on
Speaker:social media, where I will post a discussion question and you can interact with me
Speaker:and other members of the community and maybe even Anne, if.
Speaker:If she is in there interacting. So if you're not already following us on social
Speaker:media, those links are in the show notes and all those places, but you can
Speaker:join us in the conversation, which is super fun. And now
Speaker:let's pick back up. Okay, so what I want to talk
Speaker:now because I'm curious about it. I think that I
Speaker:can imagine, and maybe other people can imagine what we would feel like
Speaker:to sort of relive your experience of getting this email.
Speaker:But one of the things I'm curious about is transitioning and
Speaker:moving from that moment of discovery and then
Speaker:into the work and the intentional work and decision
Speaker:of what do we do next and how are we going to do that? So
Speaker:share with us. You shared a little bit about that moment
Speaker:when you got the email. You say your heart sank, but share with us
Speaker:a little bit more about, like, how. How it felt to
Speaker:experience that, because you. It's. It's a
Speaker:surprise. You were not looking for this.
Speaker:No, I. I thought we were good. Right.
Speaker:And honestly, the. The word I now use in hindsight,
Speaker:which is kind of, for me now,
Speaker:it's a deadly word in a relationship with a partner.
Speaker:The word I would use is that we were comfortable. Oh,
Speaker:yeah? Yeah. And I think comfortable leads to
Speaker:kind of assumptions in a romantic relationship. Like, you
Speaker:know, if I wear the same sweatpants and
Speaker:underwear and don't wash my hair for a week, we're comfortable with each other,
Speaker:you know, and that might be an extreme example, but I think some women
Speaker:can relate to that. We just. I don't know any women who
Speaker:cannot relate to the occasional time in our life where we're like,
Speaker:these are. These are the pants this week. Yeah.
Speaker:Right. Or the. My body changing and
Speaker:I'm a critic of myself all the time. Right. Or things that
Speaker:just. He's going to be comfortable with because I'M dealing with
Speaker:it and we're not talking about it. We're not having conversations about it.
Speaker:We're not necessarily talking about how it's impacting both
Speaker:of us and us together. We're just comfortable in making
Speaker:assumptions about what that means. And so, you know, in
Speaker:the. I was shocked, I thought we were good.
Speaker:And he's saying we're not good, we're not good. I
Speaker:mean that's ultimately what that one foot out the door was.
Speaker:He was, he was looking for romance and love
Speaker:again. And that wasn't happening in the comfort. I get
Speaker:it. Well, there is, I mean, there's all kinds of
Speaker:discussions as not something that I would call myself an expert in, but
Speaker:there's all kinds of articles and headlines about, you
Speaker:know, long relationships and the difference between that
Speaker:beginning, like sort of romance phase and then what to
Speaker:expect. And then there's many, many people who have all kinds of opinions and
Speaker:thoughts and ideas about what a long relationship might look like. And it's really
Speaker:different, it's really different from house to house, from culture to
Speaker:culture, all of those things. But I think that one of the common things that
Speaker:we. This is not just true of romantic relationships, I don't think. But like first
Speaker:few days in a new job is very exciting and
Speaker:unpredictable and when you stick around for a while, you're in the rout.
Speaker:And I don't want comfort to feel like a routine. I
Speaker:don't know that that's how I would describe it.
Speaker:You know, even he would say, when we first
Speaker:met, he would say to men, he goes to a barbershop every week. I say,
Speaker:spends more hair money on his hair than I do in a month. But he
Speaker:shakes all the guys hands, he says hello and you know, relationships with
Speaker:a partner will come up and he says,
Speaker:he says to them, you have to remember that you're still dating
Speaker:somebody even if you're committed. And he says, I forgot
Speaker:that. So not only did I, we both had our
Speaker:own part in it. Please don't get it wrong. I'm not saying I was
Speaker:to blame. I'm not saying he was to blame. I think we both had our
Speaker:own part in what was happening, in keeping us in
Speaker:this space. And he's, he admits he stopped
Speaker:dating me. He stopped showing up to say,
Speaker:I need her to know I choose her every day too. Which,
Speaker:that cycle, that circle can be scary in a relationship,
Speaker:whatever it is. And again, if you, to your point, no, no
Speaker:judgment to me. If you are fine in a relationship where you're kind of
Speaker:Separate, but hold a household together. And that works for you. Great.
Speaker:Yeah. I find with a lot of women that I work with, though, in some
Speaker:way, they. They still want a romantic partnership.
Speaker:They still want to feel loved
Speaker:with that person they chose to make that commitment to. Yeah.
Speaker:Once upon a time, many, many years ago, I was in a wedding, so
Speaker:bridesmaid in a wedding and young kids,
Speaker:and definitely in a season of life that was very
Speaker:busy. Not a lot of pre. Planning or
Speaker:things in my relationship. And in the homily, the.
Speaker:The pastor and during the wedding, the presentation he was
Speaker:giving the homily, he. He said he's like, you know, never
Speaker:forget what you did today. You know, you got up, you
Speaker:got dressed, you thought about how you'd look for your bride and groom, you
Speaker:put on your rings and you showed up with your best foot forward. And it
Speaker:was one of those things. I remember looking across the room at. At my
Speaker:husband and the kids, and he was looking back at me like, we both heard
Speaker:it. I thought, okay, that was an unexpected message.
Speaker:This is not what I was expecting to hear today. But it's always, we
Speaker:need the reminders. It's always a helpful reminder for anybody.
Speaker:And I think you can extend that for people who are not in romantic
Speaker:relationships. I think you can extend it to friendships. It's like to not forget
Speaker:how you show up and to pay attention to it.
Speaker:So one of the things. So let's see if this is a good question.
Speaker:There's always a chance that I'll ask a question that's maybe not great, but
Speaker:one of the sort of discussion questions that I
Speaker:have had come up over the years with my girlfriends and my friends. I would
Speaker:put this in the context of late night in the dorm
Speaker:room kind of thing, or maybe with girlfriends, I was trying to figure out where
Speaker:it was. But one of those questions with both relationships and then also
Speaker:sometimes with kids is that question of. It's like, hey, if I knew
Speaker:something that was happening in your life, would you want me to
Speaker:tell you? Like, as your friend? Like, is it. Would you want me to tell
Speaker:you? Because there are people like, oh, no, I don't want to know. Don't tell
Speaker:me. And this was a discussion. So that had me thinking, and
Speaker:I was wondering, did you happen to know this
Speaker:person that sent you this? And then did that impact your friendship with the person
Speaker:who sent you the message? Yeah, so. Well, I.
Speaker:I did a lot of speaking early in my career,
Speaker:and I. Part of the way I got the word out is I
Speaker:actually started a networking Group here in the Bay Area.
Speaker:I had the largest nighttime one in the city, 200 women every month,
Speaker:and the largest lunchtime one here in the East Bay, about
Speaker:150 women a month. I'd lead those. I'd speak on
Speaker:occasion, I'd invite speakers, but that would get me speaking gigs. Right. It would get
Speaker:me out on platforms in terms of that. So I was
Speaker:pretty well known, I would say, all the way down to San Diego. As a
Speaker:matter of fact, somebody connected with me when I was. Did a keynote in 2012
Speaker:back in San Diego. So these women knew me, they
Speaker:followed me. Many of them had done work with me, that kind of thing. And
Speaker:this was one of those women who fell into that circle
Speaker:with her, choosing to tell me
Speaker:again. I placed no judgment in her heart. She felt it was the right thing
Speaker:to do. Yeah. You know, what do I
Speaker:believe somewhere, though, in my heart, especially as I was
Speaker:evolving as a woman and learning what intuition
Speaker:really is and that. And now I
Speaker:talk about accept versus understand. A lot of times our
Speaker:intuition as women is already telling us something's off, something's
Speaker:wrong, and we have to accept our intuition as the
Speaker:truth versus understand. Which means now I need
Speaker:proof. Yeah. Do I need proof if my gut's already telling me
Speaker:probably not right. If I have a healthy self, love, I'm
Speaker:going to be able to say, I'm going to trust my intuition and I'm going
Speaker:to say to a friend, a partner, something's off
Speaker:in our relationship. And I'm not asking you what
Speaker:you know you're doing. I'm saying, do you feel it too?
Speaker:And do we want to work on it so it doesn't feel off? Do we
Speaker:want to improve it in terms of that? So
Speaker:were we close to begin with? No. Okay.
Speaker:In terms of that. But did it
Speaker:end the relationship? No. Okay. Right. I was. I was just curious as it came
Speaker:up, because it's. It's one of those things. My experience with this has
Speaker:more to do with kids and step kids when, like, other adults will call and
Speaker:be like, hey, by the way, I saw something. Do you want me to tell
Speaker:you? Yeah. And that can be a tough call to make for the person who's
Speaker:making the call for sure. Because, you know, you just never know how the other
Speaker:person. Yeah. With grown people, is it really your business or not?
Speaker:The debate. Yeah. And, you know, we. We
Speaker:tend to. We sometimes put pressure on ourselves that we're going to be
Speaker:judged based on how, you know, other people see our things. So it feels like
Speaker:judgment of ourselves when it can also just be, hey, I saw this,
Speaker:you know, here's a piece of information, do with it what you want. And that's
Speaker:pretty what she said. You know, she said I was, I was online, right, looking
Speaker:and I was just like, I think this is your husband. It wasn't. There was
Speaker:no judgment, you know, there was no, he's a shitty human being and is cheating
Speaker:on you. There was nothing, you know, bad about what she said. I, you know,
Speaker:and for all she knew, again, to your point, we could be in an open
Speaker:relationship. Well, that's the other thing. You don't know
Speaker:out there, as you said, right. 100. Or,
Speaker:or it could be like, you know, 100. Absolutely. You could
Speaker:misunderstand the situation. People can have a very, I think of all
Speaker:the hilarious situation where we misjudge what's happening. We think that
Speaker:somebody's a girlfriend and they're a cousin or a best friend or whatever,
Speaker:or a coworker. You just. And also
Speaker:it's more public now probably than it has been at other times in at least
Speaker:my lifetime, and more knowledgeable. But really we just
Speaker:never know what's happening at other people's houses. You just never,
Speaker:ever, ever know. And so. Absolutely. Okay,
Speaker:so we touched on this at the beginning, but now we're going to come back
Speaker:to it. Your story is that you decided
Speaker:to stay together and be in the relationship
Speaker:and notably, you guys were able to make that happen
Speaker:together. So let's talk about. Because that's
Speaker:not an assumption either. You could have gone to him and said, do you want
Speaker:to do the workout? And he could have been like, no.
Speaker:So let's talk about what the work was like.
Speaker:What do you think? Looking back, it's been some time. What are some of the
Speaker:things that you worked on and why do you think they made a difference?
Speaker:Yeah. So at that point, we
Speaker:both agreed to putting very clear
Speaker:intention into the work and deciding
Speaker:what that would look like as a couple and reach
Speaker:agreement on it. So first thing was
Speaker:forgiveness. Okay. Because.
Speaker:And, and forgiveness comes with the caveat
Speaker:that trust will be rebuilt. I think people want to reverse
Speaker:that. I'm not going to trust you. Right. You got to prove your trust, then
Speaker:I'll forgive you. And I, I believe in
Speaker:forgiveness, which means I release right this
Speaker:and you know, and that gives me the right
Speaker:though still to ask questions if I need to with a non defensive
Speaker:reaction, that kind of thing.
Speaker:So the forgiveness, the apology, all of that right at the beginning. And then
Speaker:we made decisions about what it looked like for us Therapy was not a
Speaker:choice for us. Okay. Obvious for
Speaker:him he had had a very negative experience
Speaker:with therapy. Be fair enough with the baby.
Speaker:Baby mama just kind of feeling like the therapist kind of sided with the woman.
Speaker:Wasn't kind of equal play in therapy. So
Speaker:fair enough. Right. Didn't want to do that. So. And you know, I have a
Speaker:master's degree in psychology and do I've been doing this self love work for all
Speaker:these years. So we kind of came up with our own thoughts. So first thing
Speaker:we did is we created a weekly date night.
Speaker:Okay. And the date night was very important
Speaker:in the sense that we did go out in public and we would sit out
Speaker:in public. Obviously, that's actually a
Speaker:pretty big deal. You clearly defined what it meant to have a date
Speaker:because. Yeah, yeah, very nice. Because. And that can change. That can
Speaker:change during a relationship. Yeah. And it. And it. Yes. And not dating
Speaker:can happen too. Right? Yeah. So. And
Speaker:part of date night, the part of the reason for going out in public was
Speaker:that our fear was if we were having the discussion
Speaker:at home, the fight would start. And,
Speaker:you know, because you feel safe to get emotional and to release,
Speaker:and that's when you say things you don't want to say. And you go three
Speaker:steps backwards right after you went five steps forward. And
Speaker:there's hurt in what can come out when you're fighting. So
Speaker:we knew if we were in public, we wouldn't fight with each
Speaker:other. That's like. That's like breaking up with someone in a public place. It's like,
Speaker:I'm gonna invite you out because you're not gonna make a scene. It's gonna be
Speaker:polite. You know, it's gonna be polite. Right. And.
Speaker:And the next thing that we added to that, though,
Speaker:was intentionally so we would talk about stuff, we
Speaker:added what we called a date night question. And
Speaker:he had to come up with one, and I had to come up with one.
Speaker:It could be any question you wanted to ask. It could be about the
Speaker:situation. It could be how you feel about our communication. It
Speaker:could be. Right. What's one thing you think you could do better in the.
Speaker:Really? There was no holds barred on the question you
Speaker:wanted to ask. But the rule was, is if you ask the question, you
Speaker:also had to answer your own question. Oh, interesting. Okay.
Speaker:All right, I can see it. So when you came up with that, just based
Speaker:on your experience and what you guys wanted, that's actually, we got at
Speaker:one point in my. That was a stepmom before I was a mom. So I
Speaker:also had. Was Dealing with the step kids
Speaker:and things. And at one point we were given an assignment similar
Speaker:to that from a therapist that was like a scheduled time. And the
Speaker:entire purpose of that was for me to ask questions and clear
Speaker:the schedule. So it was a little bit different because it was like, Amy gets
Speaker:to show up and ask anything. And the rule was you have to answer.
Speaker:But I didn't have to answer my own questions. But it was. A lot of
Speaker:this was real calendar type stuff. It's like, what is happening on Thursday? What
Speaker:is happening on Saturday? So. Yeah, but I love that
Speaker:you guys did that. That's a. That's a really, really strong
Speaker:talking point. And to have to be willing to answer the
Speaker:question yourself means you're going to think about it. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah. So you have to be able to say, yeah, I really want
Speaker:this question from him, or I want this question from Anne.
Speaker:Am I willing to answer it right? Yes. Am
Speaker:I willing to be open and vulnerable and give the answer honestly?
Speaker:And there, there were some tough ones, trust me. There were times when
Speaker:both of us left that date night feeling hurt,
Speaker:you know, yet that vulnerability,
Speaker:that realness made us closer again.
Speaker:Right. Yeah. And I think the questions might have started out
Speaker:safe. Then they got harder. Yeah.
Speaker:Right. Because we felt safe. Then they got harder, and that's where that
Speaker:discomfort came. But then they moved more into
Speaker:the joy and the things we want to do with each other and the, the
Speaker:recreation of the relationship and the, the reason we're staying.
Speaker:And, you know, the bigger questions that really mattered
Speaker:in rebuilding love with each other. And I don't think we didn't
Speaker:love each other when that happened. We just forgot to share
Speaker:it with each other more openly. Yeah. And
Speaker:there are several points, I think in long relationships,
Speaker:they don't have to be intimate relationships where there's a. There's a
Speaker:choice to be made whether or not you're going to continue to focus on
Speaker:the previous version of the relationship. You're just going to continue what was,
Speaker:or if you're going to be intentional about creating something new. And so
Speaker:there are some of those that we walk through pretty well.
Speaker:It's a. It's one of the things that I teach people who are step parents
Speaker:and who are coming into blended families, I say, if you can make the shift,
Speaker:don't try and fit yourself into that family that existed before you got there, but
Speaker:create the new one that includes you. But where I got
Speaker:that sort of method was looking at things like retirement
Speaker:and graduation where it's like, okay, well, this is over.
Speaker:That's done. What are you going to do next? And
Speaker:redefine giving yourself permission to intelligent. That intelligently,
Speaker:intentionally design and talk about the next thing. But I. I
Speaker:think if nobody tells you and gives you a framework for that or
Speaker:suggests it, it's less likely you'll come up with it on your own. So. And
Speaker:that's what it sounds like you guys were doing is like, what are we doing?
Speaker:What do we want to do? Yeah. And it's really evolved in our
Speaker:relationship. You know, I. As you were talking, one of those major
Speaker:things women go through, which I'm way past it
Speaker:now. I'm super menopausal woman. A
Speaker:sign of success. It does. It ends. The
Speaker:perimenopause end. We live on. It does. It does. And
Speaker:yet I went. I was very excited
Speaker:for menopause, honestly. I was like, get out. Flow out
Speaker:of here. I want freedom in my sex life again. I don't want to
Speaker:have to plan a vacation around it. You know, all these things,
Speaker:oh, sorry, honey. New Year's isn't happening. You know, whatever those things
Speaker:are. I was ready for that freedom, you know,
Speaker:and watching all the crazy, fun TV shows of older people in their
Speaker:70s, you know, getting a freak on. I was ready for that life. And
Speaker:I'll tell you the day that shut off, everything sexually in my
Speaker:body turned off. Oh, so you really went through, like a hormone
Speaker:rock and roll hormone. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't want
Speaker:to be touched. I didn't have any bit of
Speaker:drive in me whatsoever. Yeah. And I think,
Speaker:honestly, because we had done so much of this work together learning
Speaker:how to communicate. Earl now calls it the practice. So Earl's my husband. We
Speaker:don't keep that a secret. We're online. We don't hide. We.
Speaker:We call it. He calls it now the practice, which is this opportunity
Speaker:to really talk and listen to each other and ask questions and
Speaker:figure out how do we be supportive of each other so that we can stay
Speaker:on a path together, supporting each other as a couple versus
Speaker:separate. And his ability to do
Speaker:that helped us figure out what new
Speaker:romance and sex looks like now than
Speaker:it did when we met, when we were 28. Because it's not same. It's not
Speaker:the same for him either. I'm going to tell you, ladies, men go through their
Speaker:own too in that department. Okay? It's not just
Speaker:us. I love it. I love it. I love that you guys call
Speaker:it the Practice. It reminds me of the way
Speaker:there's an author and speaker, Byron, Katie, and she calls her
Speaker:stuff that the work. And I think those are good names for those
Speaker:because it's like this. It's not a one time thing. This is not a,
Speaker:this is not a quick switch. It's not a flip of the switch and
Speaker:you should expect to keep at it.
Speaker:And I think that really touches on, Amy, what you were
Speaker:saying earlier when we were talking about comfort and routine, and I was like, I
Speaker:don't know if I'd say routine yet. I think,
Speaker:and I joke with women now. I'm like, Disney screwed us there. I was
Speaker:going to bring happily ever after. Right. That's not how
Speaker:it works. And it is work. Anybody that
Speaker:wants to be in a committed, loving relationship,
Speaker:it is the practice of getting up every day and
Speaker:doing the work. Right. And that's
Speaker:what we learned through that experience, is
Speaker:we both have to put in the work. We both have to put
Speaker:in that effort. So, yeah, so you said in your intake interview, this is one
Speaker:of the things I was absolutely going to ask you because I was. So you
Speaker:said Disney was wrong. And like wrong is in all caps with an
Speaker:exclamation point. And I thought I probably understood what you were talking
Speaker:about. But this is the, this is the way the princess
Speaker:movies tend to end with the idea and then, you
Speaker:know, ta da marriage, happily, sunset,
Speaker:all the work is done. Glory, you know, and
Speaker:rainbows and unicorns forever. And, you know, and anybody
Speaker:who's been through the process, even if you have a
Speaker:very, very happy marriage long, I've never met anybody
Speaker:who's like, no, that's not, that's not how it goes. That's the party
Speaker:is a party, Yay. And then the marriage begins.
Speaker:Right. You may think we're this perfect couple, but you
Speaker:don't know what we go through every day to be that couple. Yeah. You know
Speaker:what I mean? I do think that's the, you know, like you said, we can't
Speaker:know what goes on in anybody's home. Yet these couples that we often
Speaker:admire, we don't realize how much work they
Speaker:really are doing and have, I don't know
Speaker:anybody that can be together. You know, we're, we're together almost
Speaker:30 years to 20, 27,
Speaker:almost 30 years of being with each other. I don't know anybody that can
Speaker:get 30, 40, 50 years into a relationship and say, oh, no, we've never
Speaker:had one fight. We've never had one distrust. We've
Speaker:never had one moment where we're like, I'm out of here, it's over. I
Speaker:think any couple that you really admire will Say, yeah, we work
Speaker:on it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there are people who will tell you
Speaker:those things. There are people you will meet in your life. They will say,
Speaker:oh, yeah, I've never raised a voice. I just don't
Speaker:what their tools are for doing that or if they're actually, they have the same
Speaker:standard of what would make them happy. So. Because
Speaker:there's, you know, there is, there is one version of
Speaker:not fighting in a relationship which is just like, if you just decide you're not
Speaker:ever going to fight and you, you're like, I'm fine, just
Speaker:never speaking up, then, you know, it does take two people to have a fight.
Speaker:So if you just never engage. Yeah, but will you be happy that way?
Speaker:That's right. If you keep your report. If you shut your voice down. Right. Yeah.
Speaker:And Earl will tell people now, he's like, don't, don't get me wrong. We
Speaker:have disagreements. We have times when we're not in sync.
Speaker:We've. We don't fight a lot anymore, but we, there's times
Speaker:when we're just out of sync. Right, right. Well,
Speaker:I've never met anybody who agrees about
Speaker:absolutely everything. There's going to be even a, like a tiny
Speaker:bit of difference and conflict in any relationship, even if all
Speaker:that is, is you have a different flavor of ice cream you like for dessert,
Speaker:you know, and so there's, you know, we're not the same people
Speaker:in our family. That's what makes living with other people not always
Speaker:super easy. You know, in I,
Speaker:we're. I'm getting very close to being an empty nester. But in my house,
Speaker:I have a different goal for the thermostat than everybody else. I'm
Speaker:related to every. Like, I, when they leave, I
Speaker:change the thermostat, and that is. And they think I'm,
Speaker:you know, like, that's the way. That's the way that it is. So you
Speaker:guys put in the, you guys put in the practice. You built this
Speaker:practice together of coming together, and you did that. You did.
Speaker:You said. And I'll give you a chance to talk about this. You say that
Speaker:you feel like this is the unconventional choice and not normal. I'd love to give
Speaker:you a chance to talk a little bit more about where that
Speaker:perception comes from it. And why. It's worth mentioning that it feels like
Speaker:that's not, that's not the easy point.
Speaker:Yeah. So here I am in my career. You
Speaker:know, I, I have a master's degree in psychology.
Speaker:I chose to go to a college where there was no grades and no exams.
Speaker:So I had to actually do an internship and build a program
Speaker:and I went to school up and. Sounds delightful.
Speaker:Where did you, like, where did. No exams? No, I went to Antioch
Speaker:University. Oh, is Antioch still around? I believe
Speaker:so. I still get stuff in the mail, so that makes me believe, you know,
Speaker:I still get the fundraising and you. Know, the, I think I know
Speaker:somebody, I think I know somebody else that went there. Okay. And,
Speaker:and I thought, I thought that maybe a decade or so ago they had like
Speaker:a fundraising challenge, but I, I could be mixing it up with something. Well, they
Speaker:had satellites, so they might have closed some of their satellites. Oh, maybe they're originally
Speaker:in the Midwest and they had a satellite, I believe in la, but I went
Speaker:to the satellite in Seattle. So maybe that's what happened is they took
Speaker:some of those down. But yeah, so that's where my
Speaker:work on self esteem and self love for women started.
Speaker:And so here I am, this woman who people come to
Speaker:my weekend retreats and my masterminds in
Speaker:this work with me and do one on one work with me.
Speaker:And my experience has been that women, when they
Speaker:have what they feel is a betrayal, that the MO
Speaker:is you leave a bad man. Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Speaker:Fear, that is the thing some people say. Yes, yes, that is a thing that
Speaker:people will say. And I,
Speaker:so I think I built some fear around it in making the choice
Speaker:to say. And you know, the universe will provide you proof
Speaker:if you keep looking for it. And I decided at one of
Speaker:my retreats with VIPs who
Speaker:honestly I would say had been working with me for years. I knew their families,
Speaker:they knew mine. All of this stuff happened and I decided to tell this
Speaker:story. Okay. And one woman actually quit working with me
Speaker:and ended the friendship. And I was, you
Speaker:know, hurt by that and felt that
Speaker:shame for staying and was told later through the
Speaker:gossip mill that that's why she felt that I wasn't a good role model or
Speaker:example to women. And I, I've been
Speaker:able to take that full circle of I, I,
Speaker:I want women to be in a place where they will never feel
Speaker:judged on the choice that they make. I think that's a good goal.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so
Speaker:choosing to stay and make it work, choosing to leave. Right.
Speaker:Whatever that choice is. Choosing to marry someone who already had kids
Speaker:with somebody else, any of those things. Yeah. We weren't from generation where that wasn't
Speaker:cool either. Right, right, right. As if it was a new thing
Speaker:in this generation. As if you haven't been step parents since, you know, the beginning
Speaker:of relationship. Yeah. Choosing not to get married and. Right.
Speaker:Choosing not to get married as if that's some sort of non. Or
Speaker:choosing not to have kids, which is like almost half of the world and yet
Speaker:we treat them like they've done some sort of crazy thing. Yeah.
Speaker:You're going to regret it. I used to. You're going to regret it. And
Speaker:I said no. I don't even have a tic, let alone a talk. I think
Speaker:it's probably a good idea. I don't have kids. Okay. So, you
Speaker:know, I think I'm okay. I'm okay with that one. So. Yeah, that,
Speaker:that it's the uncommon story. But as I've.
Speaker:As I. I think. And that's why when, you know,
Speaker:I reached. I wanted Earl's permission, of course to tell this story because
Speaker:it's his too. And chose with you to do that.
Speaker:I realized that if some woman is feeling that
Speaker:way, shamed because she's staying, I. That it's okay.
Speaker:You don't have to be feel shame because of that.
Speaker:You made the choice that was right for you. That was right for you.
Speaker:And one of the things I say just about my stepparent journey, which is very
Speaker:similar, is that, that I'll add on to it is that
Speaker:I don't minimize the pressure that you feel from what you think
Speaker:people are going to. Because people. It's the reality of the human experience
Speaker:in my. People will make assumptions about you. Some of them will be right, some
Speaker:of them are wrong. And some people will make the judgment to tell
Speaker:you what they think about the choices they think you've made, even if they're. Even
Speaker:if they're wrong. And you will have to deal with it.
Speaker:So the fear is justified. Right.
Speaker:That's a real experience. Some people will do that. But I think it's so important
Speaker:to say that and to bring it out. The more that
Speaker:we talk about it and the more stories we share, the more
Speaker:people can hear it and know that they're not alone or that it
Speaker:exists. It's one of the really, really, really great things
Speaker:about being alive in 2025 is that really
Speaker:small marginalized groups and really just
Speaker:special. If you are a collector of purple
Speaker:playing cards, you can probably find a group somewhere to identify. And
Speaker:that's really nice. But it comes with all the other stuff that modern time comes
Speaker:with too. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker:Secrets are harder to keep. You know, there's sure.
Speaker:As the old saying used to be, only two can keep a secret. If one
Speaker:of them is dead. Oh, right. Yeah, we haven't. But
Speaker:now, you know, now it's what happens in Vegas stays in
Speaker:Vegas and on Facebook and on. Okay, there we go.
Speaker:That's been a very good update. I love that update because it is a
Speaker:very real challenge. Now, I was talking. I was talking to somebody earlier today, and
Speaker:I was saying, you know, you can't even walk down the street,
Speaker:you know, without somebody's door cam filming you, whether you know it
Speaker:or want it or not. All right, so in the. In a minute,
Speaker:we're going to do the final fun questions, but I want you to give.
Speaker:I want to give you a chance to. You've talked a lot about the work
Speaker:that you do with clients, but to directly tell people what you do, how you
Speaker:want people to reach out and find you after this interview
Speaker:if they want to you. I love that. So I love people reaching out and
Speaker:finding me. I mentioned already, I'm not much of a secret in my life.
Speaker:I'm pretty open book. I. In terms of social, my
Speaker:number one place and I just chose to be at the place that I like
Speaker:to be is Facebook. Okay. And my name is the
Speaker:fastest way to find me, whether it's a group or just
Speaker:following me from my profile. So I'm perfectly okay
Speaker:that I'm okay with people private messaging me.
Speaker:I know there's the great debate about that. Yet sometimes you need a
Speaker:private conversation with somebody. So I have no problem with that whatsoever.
Speaker:And Evanston, my name as well.com will get you to my website.
Speaker:Okay. I am a. Well, a
Speaker:master's degree in psychology, and I'm a certified
Speaker:master performance coach, which is really about how are you getting
Speaker:past your own gunk to live the life you want? Find your voice, your
Speaker:purpose, your passion. I run Self Love
Speaker:Evolution retreats for women, which is my biggest passion.
Speaker:So easy to find and look up and
Speaker:happy to talk with anybody. All right, fantastic. And you actually, you have a book,
Speaker:the Self Love Evolution for Women, which is the same title as the retreats.
Speaker:I think I did. So I've been running the retreat 10 years, and I've had
Speaker:people for a long time encouraging the book.
Speaker:And I always say, I'm not a writer, I'm not an author. Well, technology
Speaker:has made that a lot easier these days. Again, if you move into technology,
Speaker:even this year, you can transcribe why we're talking. Right. And get a
Speaker:transcription anymore. So I turned the
Speaker:basically retreat and these levels of the Self Love evolution
Speaker:that are in there into a book. And a journal.
Speaker:And there's five level layers to self love that I talk about with my
Speaker:work from Antioch. And the expert gives you those. Those excerpt
Speaker:gives you those five layers. Free gift to anybody who wants to get it on
Speaker:your page there, just to kind of get you started thinking about that
Speaker:and where you're at in your evolution and the things
Speaker:that you want to work on. Yes. Very good. So I will recap the special
Speaker:offer which you mentioned so that everybody's got it. It's an excerpt of the book,
Speaker:and it gives you the opportunity to look at the five layers of self love
Speaker:with some questions to start the journey. So there's a link, and the link is
Speaker:in the show notes. It's on YouTube. The easiest way to redeem the link and
Speaker:to get all the links for any episode, including this one, is to be a
Speaker:subscriber to my email community@imperfectadulting.com and the reason
Speaker:it's easy is just because then it comes straight to your email box and you
Speaker:can click on the link, which is just great. So I always say
Speaker:that. All right, Ann, are you ready for the final questions? I am.
Speaker:All right. Very, very good. Okay.
Speaker:What was the last thing that you bought or
Speaker:purchased? Can be big, can be small, and was it for you or was
Speaker:it for somebody else? Else? And so I guess you have to be willing to
Speaker:share it publicly. So if you bought something you don't want to share, then
Speaker:the thing before that. Okay, well, it's crazy. Thing is, just as we
Speaker:were starting today, Amy, they walked up with a package. It's at my door.
Speaker:Okay. And I'm not quite sure what's in it.
Speaker:So that could tell you something about the kind of shopper that I am.
Speaker:That is so funny. That's such a modern. That's such a modern situation.
Speaker:And we get. I don't know, we. We get the previews now of what
Speaker:we order. And we've got all these kids and they're ordering things. And so
Speaker:sometimes you. Some. Sometimes you'll see a picture of it, and you're like, what is
Speaker:that? And where is that? And then you realize that's not here. And I didn't
Speaker:order it. I just get to pay the bill, so. Very good. And the previous
Speaker:one that just came, which is kind of fun, it's a charcoal face mask. It
Speaker:just came yesterday in the mail. Earl and I do facials together
Speaker:twice a week, so it's kind of one of those couple things. Fantastic. So
Speaker:I love that. All right, so today, in 2020,
Speaker:5. If you are looking what used to be called local news,
Speaker:things like local events, information about your community, you know,
Speaker:restaurants, sales, things like that, where are you these days going to find
Speaker:that information? Are you a subscriber to a newspaper? Do you have an email
Speaker:newsletter that you follow? Do you look it up in Google? Do you call a
Speaker:friend? Do you watch tv? How do you find that information?
Speaker:My husband. You ask your husband. He's the information source.
Speaker:He runs our Instagram, which is
Speaker:Temple Terroir Organics. We named our garden Temple
Speaker:Terroir and. But he follows
Speaker:everything local that we love, so he follows music,
Speaker:event places, restaurants, distilleries,
Speaker:wineries, you name it. Right. All the different things that might be going on in
Speaker:the bay. And he just keeps up with that that way. And then says, oh,
Speaker:hey, it's first Friday. Do you want to go? Or it's, you know,
Speaker:SF Beer week. Which ones are we hitting? He just. He keeps up with
Speaker:that, and then we talk about them. That's a beautiful arrangement. I love that
Speaker:you. And you don't have to worry about it. Exactly. All right. Very. I don't
Speaker:have to hold the calendar. Well, I. Eventually. I do hold the calendar. I'm the
Speaker:master of the calendar yet. Yeah, he's looking at what's coming up. And then you
Speaker:put it on the calendar. You keep track of things. Okay, That's a. That's a
Speaker:good divide of. Good division of household responsibility. All
Speaker:right, so what is something that other people, just other human beings
Speaker:do that sometimes bugs you and you're
Speaker:not afraid to claim it out loud?
Speaker:Can I have more than one? You can. I mean, you don't have to even
Speaker:share as many. You can. Yeah. So, you know, I really
Speaker:get irritated with people that use their blinker all the time.
Speaker:Okay. Or. Or don't. And technically,
Speaker:people. It's called a signal. It's supposed to signal what you're doing in
Speaker:your car. So if you never turn it off,
Speaker:it's not signaling anything to anybody around you.
Speaker:Right. And if you never turn it on, you're not signaling to
Speaker:people that you're doing something. So that's one. That's a real pet peeve.
Speaker:There's a joke we use it in Miami, but I think other cities also use
Speaker:it, too, that, like, you know, people do not use their single signal
Speaker:or their indicator here in Miami because it's showing a sign of weakness as a
Speaker:driver. Got to keep your edge. Be surprised if you. We're famous for our
Speaker:terrible drivers down here, and it's deserved. It's a well deserved criticism of my
Speaker:community. All right, all right. That's it. And Evanston, thank you so much for
Speaker:being an amazing guest today on the show. Thank you, Amy. I appreciate it. It
Speaker:was great.
