In this episode I’m joined by HR copywriter Katie Murray to explore the role communication plays in redundancy processes and why the way people experience those conversations matters just as much as the process itself.

Drawing on more than 20 years in HR, Katie shares honest reflections from supporting redundancy programmes, including the moments where communication built trust and the moments where it broke down. We talk about preparing line managers for difficult conversations, avoiding the “tick-box” approach, and why silence and unclear messaging can make an already difficult situation harder for employees.

We also discuss how organisations can communicate with empathy while still managing a legally compliant process, the importance of flexibility during consultation, and how outplacement support can help people feel informed and supported about what comes next.

Useful Links From This Episode

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Visit the Wildwood Coaching website

Connect with Katie on LinkedIn

Visit Katie's website

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If you found this episode of Redundancy Matters helpful, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

If you’re kind enough to leave a review, please let June know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: [email protected]

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Welcome to Redundancy

Matters with me, June Hogan.

2

This is the podcast where I help

HR professionals and leaders

3

managing redundancies to put

people at the heart of the process.

4

And if you've not tuned in before,

it's great to have you here.

5

So I'm a qualified career coach, I'm an

outplacement specialist, and I've got a

6

background in HR, and I've been working

with individuals and organizations

7

navigating redundancy since 2019.

8

In today's episode, I'm joined by Katie

Murray, an experienced HR copywriter

9

with more than 20 years' experience

working in HR, and together we explore

10

something that can shape a redundancy

process more, almost more than anything

11

else, and that is communication.

12

Katie shares reflections from her

own experience supporting redundancy

13

programs, including the moments

where communication built trust, and

14

also the moments where it didn't.

15

We talk about the pressure line

managers can feel, we talk about

16

the importance of flexibility within

a process, and also why silence or

17

some of those unclear or confusing

messages can often make situations

18

harder for people that are involved.

19

We also explore what good communication

really looks like during redundancy, Not

20

just getting the legal process right,

but making sure people feel informed,

21

respected, and supported throughout.

22

So I really hope you enjoy our

conversation, and let's dive in.

23

June Hogan: Welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

24

delighted to be joined by Katie Murray.

25

Katie is a HR copywriter with

an extensive background in HR.

26

So welcome to today's episode, Katie.

27

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Hello, June.

28

Nice to be here.

29

Thank

30

June Hogan: Wonderful.

31

So that was a very brief introduction

about you and what you do now.

32

But would you want to tell us a bit

more about your background, your

33

experience, and what's led you to be

specializing in HR copywriting, and then

34

we'll dive into all things redundancy.

35

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah, sure.

36

So the short answer is that I spent 20

years doing HR mainly in a generalist

37

capacity, some specialist pieces around

benefits in particular before deciding

38

actually I didn't want to sit in the

meetings anymore, and was there a

39

different way that I could structure my

day around having what was then a newborn.

40

He's now in school.

41

So I looked at, my background

in terms of the HR experience

42

that I've got that'll feed into,

redundancy and stuff in a minute.

43

But also what I was good at, and actually

I was very often the comms person, the

44

sort of, "Can you check this over?"

45

person.

46

And have always had a love of the

writing, so that was where the

47

shift into copywriting came from,

of wanting to still be very much

48

involved in the HR industry but with

a different spin on it these days.

49

June Hogan: Yeah, fantastic.

50

And you alluded there that you've

got l- extensive experience

51

in operational HR, generalist

experience, and some specialist.

52

and we'll talk about how redundancy showed

up during your career, and I think it's

53

gonna be really interesting with this

conversation 'cause we can take a look

54

at that through the lens of communication

55

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

56

June Hogan: do now and looking back.

57

But , the title of the

podcast is Redundancy Matters.

58

So tell me, why does

redundancy matter to you?

59

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: So I

think during my time in HR, there

60

are a number of times when I've

had to support or I have watched

61

redundancies happening on the sidelines.

62

But actually the first experience

I had of redundancy was while I was

63

on placement as part of my degree.

64

And I was so fascinated by it as a topic,

it became the topic for my placement

65

project, Almost like a dissertation

66

I was doing a finance placement.

67

I had a tutor who desperately wanted me

to write something about the euro, was

68

not remotely interested in doing that.

69

And instead I wrote about the

redundancy process that was happening

70

because the company that I was

working for were closing down a site.

71

So that was a 90-day consultation.

72

Then they were making redundancies

in the office that I was in.

73

So it formed a significant backdrop

to actually my whole placement

74

year, 'cause it was announced

only a couple of months in.

75

And it formed a lot of what was

going on during that 12 months.

76

June Hogan: So that was really

interesting that you had that insight

77

really early on in your career,

78

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

79

June Hogan: if you think about that

experience that you then went on

80

to have in terms of being, that HR

business partner supporting line

81

managers, being responsible for the

process, I think, we can all look back

82

with the benefit of hindsight, can't

we, and say there were things that

83

maybe, with what I know now I would've

84

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Definitely.

85

June Hogan: So thinking about your

experience now, it, with- from a,

86

through a communications type lens,

87

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

88

June Hogan: things that stand out for you

in particular that you think, "If I could

89

have done that differently, would do, I

would have done," because communication

90

was a real kind of theme there, maybe

where things didn't go well, or maybe

91

things that could have been improved, or

the impact that maybe the wrong type of

92

communication or just the way things are

being delivered, 'cause I think the theme

93

of our conversation today is about comms.

94

But just reflect on maybe some

situations where you think communication

95

was at the heart of a process and

maybe it could have been improved.

96

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter:

Yeah, definitely.

97

There are a couple of things that stick in

my mind in terms of redundancy experience.

98

I've got one where within

the same program, I've, there

99

are sort of two meetings in

particular that stick out for me.

100

And one was a gentleman where we

had a couple of people in a pool.

101

As part of that, we were going

through the consultation process, and

102

we were sharing individual sort of

breakdowns of what their redundancy

103

payout was likely to look and I put

all of the details in the envelopes.

104

I thought that I had double-checked

them, and what ended up happening was

105

that actually the guy who'd been around

for a very long time got the details

106

of the guy who hadn't been there for

very long, and his concern wasn't that

107

he'd seen that information, it was his

concern was that the other guy might see

108

what he was potentially going to get.

109

You can absolutely understand why

that would be an issue for him, and

110

why he would be concerned about that.

111

We did manage to stop the

other envelope getting opened.

112

But a couple of days later, we

have a follow-up meeting, and

113

understandably, he's still pretty

angry about the whole thing.

114

It's his private information.

115

. And I walked into the meeting and

thought, I've got two options here."

116

And it was someone who was showing me very

defensive body language, arms crossed,

117

leaning back as far as possible, in a

I really don't wanna be here sorta way.

118

And the first thing that I did was say,

"Look, before we even start today, I

119

want to hold my hands up and apologize,

profusely for what happened the other day.

120

I thought I checked it.

121

It's, it is inexcusable that

I didn't make sure that it was

122

right, and I'm very sorry."

123

And that, just those few words set

the tone completely for the meeting,

124

and his behavior changed immediately.

125

He was like, "No problem.

126

Get it."

127

Was very open to then having

probably one of the most productive

128

conversations we've had, actually.

129

Because someone took the time to…

130

because I acknowledged the error, and

I acknowledged what had gone wrong.

131

And I think when you get into a redundancy

situation, sometimes it's really easy to

132

focus so heavily on, "We must do this as

part of the process," that actually you

133

forget that you're dealing with a person.

134

And that leads me into kind of the mem-

the sort of the second memory around that,

135

which it was one of those where it was

probably the shortest meeting I've had.

136

It was also the worst meeting I'd had.

137

So there are certain times when you are in

redundancy scenarios that the person doing

138

the meeting, for whatever reason, isn't

the right person to be doing the meeting.

139

Now technically in this case they

were, 'cause they were the manager.

140

But the relationship between him and

the individual who'd been placed at

141

risk were just, it wasn't a great

relationship even before we started.

142

And because it was very much around

ticking the have I done the right thing

143

by the process box, and there was a

very limited sort of interaction with

144

regards to the person involved, I think

the meeting maybe lasted two minutes.

145

But I actually felt so upset

afterwards, because it hadn't,

146

it, it hadn't gone well.

147

There was a lot of anger

kicking around in that room.

148

There was a lot of upset.

149

There was door slamming because

the person who was delivering the

150

message just in a lot of ways wasn't

the right person to deliver it.

151

And I think as HR professionals, we

have to stop and think about that, and

152

we have to stop and reflect on where

are the potential conflicts here?

153

Because with the best will in the

world, you can follow the process,

154

but that doesn't mean you're

gonna get a good result out of it.

155

And the way to mitigate that is to

look for those sorts of scenarios

156

where actually you go this," "this

person maybe isn't that experienced,

157

so they might be feeling unsure.

158

They maybe don't have a great

rapport with some of the people

159

that they're talking to."

160

So it's then thinking about, so what

might happen on the back of that,

161

and how do we try and alleviate that?

162

How do we try and support it perhaps

in a slightly different way than

163

we would with this group over here?

164

So yeah there's a lot around,

thinking about the broader

165

communication and how that will

work for people as you go through.

166

June Hogan: Two insights there

around the process and, one level

167

of communication to a written letter

168

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

169

June Hogan: Ended

170

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

171

June Hogan: the wrong hands.

172

And having managed redundancy proc-

myself, my heart was literally

173

sinking as you were explaining that

because you c- I can't even imagine

174

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

175

June Hogan: have felt like

when you that's what happened.

176

But as you say, you had a choice of

how to handle that, and that point

177

around remembering that this is a

person sat across the table from you.

178

And what does that person deserve in

terms of what do they deserve from you,

179

and what do they need in that moment?

180

And sometimes that can be hard

to have that judgment call.

181

when we remember that these are

people at the heart of this process,

182

because I guess you could have said,

"Oh, I was producing lots of letters.

183

It was really busy.

184

I did my best.

185

Mistakes happen.

186

Really sorry."

187

But you were owning that, weren't you?

188

You were owning that because

that's what per- that person

189

deserved from you at that moment.

190

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: And it

absolutely was that, it was like

191

anything else that went out afterwards

I double-checked, triple-checked,

192

and did everything I possibly could.

193

But the point was that individual had

been massively let down, and it wasn't,

194

he wasn't let down by the process.

195

He'd been let down by me.

196

And I think if I hadn't

acknowledged that, we'd have had

197

a very different conversation

from the one that we then had.

198

But it is, it's so important

to think about the individual

199

that you are talking to.

200

And I've also had circumstances

where somebody asked me once

201

why have you got a template?"

202

for the meeting.

203

And it was, like, you'll be familiar with

the process, Jean, so you're you get to

204

a point in the conversations where you're

basically checking off all the things that

205

kind of apply to that individual, right?

206

So it might be about, whether they're

expected to come in to, on, on site

207

into the office, whether they're what

access they're going to need to time

208

off, what they're going to have in terms

of support, all of that kind of thing.

209

It might be around what happens if

they've got, So I've had scenarios where

210

people have maybe got a cycle to work

loan, like what happens in that scenario.

211

So different people have

a different combination of

212

things that you need to cover.

213

And I remember somebody sitting there

in, in one of these meeting once

214

saying why have you got a template?

215

Is it because I'm not important enough?"

216

And my response to that was, "I have a

template because everyone is important.

217

You are important, so is the next

person that I'm going to speak to.

218

And while you are unfortunately having

this conversation once today, I was

219

maybe having it five or six times."

220

And once you've said something once,

you're like I know I've said it.

221

Have I said it to the right person?

222

I've got no idea.

223

I know I've talked about it today, but

did I talk to that, did I talk to Julia

224

about it or did I talk to Chris about it?"

225

You're like, "Who knows?"

226

And I think helping people sometimes

to understand that, yes, there is

227

a procedural element of it, and

actually sometimes that helps you to

228

make sure that they have got all the

information and they, they are ironically

229

being treated as an individual by

going through a templated process.

230

June Hogan: Yeah

231

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: a bit

weird when you put it like that.

232

But actually again, it made a big

difference because they were "Oh, okay."

233

And I think that then comes into the

fairness aspect of, okay, so I, I'm-

234

you're making sure that, we're all

getting the same information and we're

235

all getting the right information

236

June Hogan: and that notion of having that

template or that script or that structure

237

that you're talking to somebody about,

and thinking about that situation where

238

you had that kind of two-minute meeting

239

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

240

June Hogan: and being able to combine

the kind of, "Yes, this is what we

241

need to get through, so we need to talk

about all of these things," but the

242

way you deliver that isn't just re-

reading out the, reading out a template,

243

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Niall?

244

June Hogan: with the individual.

245

These themes, and I'm capturing

a few as we're going along here

246

about things that you build into a

communications process that would

247

run through any redundancy process.

248

How would you approach this notion of

making sure that whilst the line managers

249

might have all they need in terms of the

process, the structure, the documents,

250

the FAQs, how do we make sure that we're

better preparing line managers for what

251

at the end of the day is a very difficult

conversation for many of them to have?

252

And some of them, and you alluded

to it earlier and, I've talked

253

about this with other guests.

254

For some of them, they might not want to

admit that this is gonna be difficult.

255

They might just not feel that they

256

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

257

June Hogan: So what advice or

thoughts would you have on how we

258

prepare line managers to communicate

this stuff in the right way?

259

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: I think,

so part of it depends on what

260

sort of manager you've got, right?

261

There are some managers who

are naturally quite empathetic.

262

Their style is to go in to try

and understand the individual

263

to build a rapport with them.

264

There are others who are

far more process-driven.

265

And I think it, it's a little bit of

what I look at with- with the work that

266

I now do, it's around the audience.

267

So it's looking at who is that audience?

268

And when it comes to prepping managers,

it's looking at your audience of

269

managers and saying who needs what?"

270

Different people need different

information to feel comfortable

271

with what they're doing.

272

So if you've got a manager who is very

process-focused, and actually, the

273

people side of it is quite difficult

then you can have an agreement

274

about which bits you'll step in on.

275

It might be look, if you can take the lead

on this, and this, then, I can manage…

276

I can help manage this piece for you."

277

Or if you take the lead on that, but

I'll support with any questions that

278

come out around those sorts of things."

279

And I think sometimes it's about

reassuring the individual that they

280

don't have to have all the answers, and

I think that's one of the other things

281

that I've certainly come up against

in redundancy, is those managers who

282

feel like they're, they can't be wrong.

283

Like they have to they do have

to tick all the boxes, and they

284

have to do the right thing all

the time, and that's unrealistic.

285

And actually, some of the best sort

of outcomes come from those moments

286

where you go, "Actually, I'm not sure.

287

I want to go and check that, and I

will check that and come back to you."

288

And it's the commitment and then follow

up on that which makes the difference,

289

not the fact that you didn't know it

to hand at that precise moment in time.

290

So I think when it comes to

working with managers, it's, it

291

is looking at what do they need.

292

So have they done a lot of this before?

293

What sort of relationship

have they got with the people

294

who are gonna be in the room?

295

What sort of language do they need to

use while they're in that situation?

296

So again, if you've got somebody who

you know is likely to try and bluff

297

their way through it, you have that

conversation up front and go, "Look,

298

I know sometimes you like to think

out loud while you're doing things.

299

This isn't one of those scenarios, because

actually, that's really unhelpful here."

300

And again I've certainly had that, where

you go the key communication here is

301

making sure that these points get across.

302

Everything else, we take out

of the room, and we go back."

303

Because otherwise, you end up with,

perhaps managers creating more questions

304

rather than answering the ones that

are actually being put forward.

305

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

306

And I think positioning that

up front, as you say, because

307

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

308

June Hogan: some line managers

understandably, their team look

309

to them to have all the answers.

310

You're the one in c- you're the one

311

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

312

June Hogan: you must know everything.

313

But in some situations like

this, it's okay not to know, and

314

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yes.

315

June Hogan: as you say, to take it away.

316

Add that to the FAQs list.

317

You're building up

318

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Absolutely.

319

And I think, sorry, I was gonna say, one,

one other thing is I think from an HR

320

perspective, it's also okay for you to be

a little bit vulnerable with that manager.

321

And I don't mean sitting there

disintegrating going, "Oh, I

322

don't know what to do either."

323

But actually an acknowledgement

that this can be quite an

324

emotionally draining process.

325

It can be quite a tiring process when

you are concentrating, having those

326

conversations multiple times, helping

multiple people through a change curve.

327

They as the manager has already gone

through that a little bit, because

328

you've probably been talking to

them about it for a week, a couple

329

of weeks, in some cases a couple of

months, before it all actually happens.

330

They've already gone through that.

331

They've put themselves okay,

I'm ready to deal with this now.

332

Let's go there."

333

And they don't necessarily appreciate just

how much energy it takes, particularly

334

if they're newer to the process, to

actually go through that and walk through

335

some of the, through a redundancy.

336

And I've certainly had programs,

and I know, other HR professionals

337

who have, where you get to the end

of a redundancy program and your

338

body just goes I can release it all

now," and you do cry or you have some

339

sort of emotional reaction to it.

340

Because you're holding onto all of that

emotion as you go through it for everybody

341

else, and giving them that space.

342

And then you get to the end and go, "Huh."

343

I think telling managers that sometimes

they might experience that is also a

344

really useful thing to do, because it, it

helps them to maybe have the days where

345

they walk in and go, "Do you know what?

346

I'm finding it tough today."

347

"Okay.

348

How can I help support that, then?"

349

And again, it helps you to then manage

that energy when you're in the room,

350

and make sure the focus is in the right

place, which is on the individual.

351

And sometimes it means taking a

break or calling a halt to a meeting

352

perhaps earlier when you haven't

ticked all the damn boxes for the day.

353

Because it's not the right time

and you need to wait for something

354

else to get processed before

you move onto the next bit.

355

June Hogan: And that's a really

interesting point that you make

356

there about having that flexibility

357

within what can seem like and of

course it is a legally compliant

358

process that, that you have to

359

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

360

June Hogan: At the heart of this.

361

There's the managers, there's the HR

team, and there's the individuals at risk.

362

And that point you made earlier

about understanding the audience

363

is hugely important when you're

briefing line managers to go into

364

this and understanding who might

need something slightly different

365

according to their, particular style.

366

But when we think about how we

translate that through into the

367

communications that run through the

process, thinking about, particularly

368

in a large program, you're gonna have a

369

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

370

June Hogan: of people in that audience.

371

How can HR teams who might be…

372

they might not have a

comms team, they might…

373

this might be them, they're doing it all.

374

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yep.

375

June Hogan: How can they make sure

that the comms right through from

376

the announcement through to the

kind of final letter is really

377

gonna land with people well?

378

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: It comes back

to thinking about who your audience is.

379

So we don't, in HR we don't typically

think about it in those terms,

380

but we might think about we've

got an exec board that we need to,

381

in- inform or update on things.

382

What information do they need?

383

You've got senior managers or leaders

who are actually managing that process.

384

Okay, so they need some of the kind of

business case around it, but actually

385

they also need some of that empathetic

language which helps them to support the

386

process without saying, in so many words,

"I'm sorry this is happening to you."

387

Because it's a very fine line.

388

So you can be empathetic around

the fact that it's happening.

389

Ultimately, it's difficult to say,

"Oh, I'm sorry this is happening to

390

you," because it's like that's not,

that's not an apology for one thing.

391

And also how does that help?

392

It doesn't.

393

It's being aware of whether the people

that you are talking to, and this

394

applies at manager and an employee

level whether they are process people

395

so it is thinking about what the message

is that needs to get across, and there

396

needs to be an element of all of that in

the information that you produce, but it's

397

making sure you've hit those key points.

398

And it's also recognizing that-

Different people might need

399

something else in the meeting itself.

400

I just said if you've got perhaps a

manager who you know they're having

401

a bit of a tough day, there might

be a point where you go, "Actually,

402

let's, let's have a bit of a break.

403

Let's everybody have a step

back from this," 'cause it can

404

be quite a lot to deal with.

405

Equally, there are times when

you recognize that an individual

406

might need something else.

407

I have sat in meetings

before where somebody's maybe

408

brought a colleague with them.

409

So it's not a union representative, the,

it hasn't been that kind of environment,

410

or they're not a member of a union.

411

But they have brought

a companion with them.

412

And I have made a point of saying,

"Okay, the next thing we're going to

413

do," or, "As part of this meeting we're

going to, talk about the finances, talk

414

about, what that means in terms of,

notice pay and all of that sort of thing.

415

Very happy to have your companion here.

416

Equally, if you would prefer to

discuss that without them at that

417

point, happy to do that as well."

418

Because not everyone wants to sit

and share their finances with the…

419

they might be quite happy to, talk about

the process and, what's happening and get

420

support for, "Can you make some notes?

421

'Cause I can't quite remember, what's

gonna happen in this scenario."

422

That's different from talking

about what money you're gonna get.

423

So it's thinking about what are

those, key elements where, again,

424

you might need that flexibility.

425

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

426

And then so this notion of being

flexible, understanding the audience,

427

thinking about the information you

absolutely have to get across, then

428

thinking about how you translate that.

429

And you said something earlier

around the planning in all of this.

430

Often HR teams will have been working

behind the scenes getting all of this

431

ready, and I've certainly noticed

this when I used to manage redundancy

432

programs, is that when you get to kind

of announcement day, y- there's a sense

433

of relief that it's out in the open

'cause so you don't have to be doing

434

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

435

June Hogan: closed doors.

436

But also, as a leadership team,

you're familiar with all of

437

this information because you've

been working on it for a while.

438

And I think it's remembering that

the people you're talking to are

439

receiving it for the first time.

440

So

441

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

442

June Hogan: anything around how HR

teams can maybe take that step back

443

and remember that the comms they're

writing, it's all landing for the first

444

time for someone, even if you knew

about it, a month ago kind of thing?

445

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter:

Yeah, definitely.

446

I think that, that was one of the key

things, that came out when I was doing my

447

placement at uni was around how certain

pieces of the communication landed.

448

The office that we were in, like I

say, they were going through a program

449

which was a 30-day consultation.

450

But before we got to that,

there was a 90-day consultation

451

happening somewhere else.

452

And their view was pretty much we

got told it was going to be a 90-day

453

consultation," and then nothing happened,

and we had stone-cold silence for 90 days.

454

And then all of a sudden it was like,

"Oh, we're back to you guys again."

455

I think the difficulty with redundancy

is, like you say, we forget that,

456

A, we've probably been talking about

it for a lot longer than, some of

457

the people who are involved are.

458

And that a void of information

actually makes things worse.

459

There's always a concern of we

don't want to say something that

460

we shouldn't be saying," and we

don't wanna share information.

461

But actually, saying nothing

makes it worse, and it makes

462

the rumor mill go even faster.

463

So I think there's a piece around

464

when you're having that conversation

and thinking about the comms that need

465

to go out, it's not just about that

first message, it's the follow-up.

466

It's how are you going to

have, what information are

467

you giving them afterwards?

468

How are you encouraging them

to come to you with questions?

469

How often are you going out

with, updates on the FAQs?

470

We'd do simple things, like once

a week you'd maybe send out a,

471

"Hey, here's the latest FAQs."

472

Or if a whole glut of them came in one

go, you'd go we've had a few come in.

473

Here you go.

474

This is the latest version."

475

But I think it's very easy to just

go I've delivered the message now."

476

And actually delivering it

once doesn't make it land.

477

Delivering it once creates

a whole bunch of questions.

478

So it's how do you encourage those

questions to come forward, and it's

479

thinking about what the interim steps are.

480

And it- it's sometimes the easiest

way to do that is to actually think

481

about if I was in this situation,

what would I, what would I need?

482

Or not necessarily if you were in

that situation, but if my brother,

483

sister, husband, like best mate was

going through this, what informa- what

484

questions would they have around this?

485

What would they want to know?

486

Because I think as HR, we assume we

wouldn't have the same questions because

487

actually we understand the process.

488

Yeah, we do, but it's not

the same as going through it.

489

I know you've obviously been through

redundancy a couple of times yourself.

490

It's s- sitting one side of the table is

not the same as sitting on the other side.

491

June Hogan: No.

492

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter:

And, but it is thinking about

493

what are the steps in between?

494

It's how do I, h- are we

encouraging managers to check in?

495

Because again, I've known managers

go, "Oh I can only talk to them if

496

we're in a consultation meeting now."

497

No, that's not it.

498

That's really not it.

499

June Hogan: Yeah, absolutely.

500

And I've worked with clients who've

been going through the process and

501

they've decided they want to access

their outplacement support, and they're

502

asking me questions, which … And I'm

503

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

504

June Hogan: to them those are

the sorts of things you can talk

505

to your line manager about."

506

"Oh I haven't got a

meeting for two weeks."

507

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

508

June Hogan: y- go and find them.

509

That's

510

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

511

June Hogan: You can go

512

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

513

June Hogan: to them."

514

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

515

But it is, I think people get there's

something that happens when a redundancy

516

process kicks in, that whatever informal

communication there used to be suddenly

517

grinds to a halt, and actually that's

one of the biggest things, I think.

518

You talked about how do you

prepare managers earlier.

519

Reminding them that it's okay, that

they're still allowed to have, their

520

normal relationship with this person.

521

Yes, it will feel a bit

awkward, because it's going to,

522

But they can still have a conversation.

523

And it's saying to them, "Look, if

something comes up specifically about

524

redundancy," the answer to that is, if

it's- If it's one of the questions that

525

we've talked about here da then you go

back and, you reinforce that conversation.

526

You repeat what you've

already said to a degree.

527

If it's something else, then

this is how we handle it.

528

So we want them to still come to you.

529

We want them to still

ask you those questions.

530

And it's okay to have those conversations.

531

What's not okay is to commit the company

to something that isn't gonna happen.

532

It, and so again, it's just going you

can still have the conversation, like

533

you can still go and see them, but if

they ask for a meeting with you and you

534

start to air into a territory somewhere

else, you can turn around and say,

535

"Look, I think actually this would be

best done in a consultation meeting.

536

Let's do that."

537

I think the other thing is that, and

again, it comes back to that flexibility,

538

some people need three meetings.

539

They need one that starts it, one in

the middle that tells them what it's all

540

about, and one that goes, "Yep, that's it.

541

We're done."

542

Other people need five or six.

543

You kinda go we're going to have,

three, three meetings per person,"

544

or five meeting, whatever it is,

depending on what the structure is.

545

But you are allowed to deviate

from that if you've got somebody

546

who needs something else.

547

It's very easy to get caught up with

they've all had their first meeting,

548

they've all had their second meeting.

549

Now we're having the third one.

550

What about this person over here that

actually probably needs a couple more?

551

June Hogan: Yeah.

552

Yeah, and that, that notion of

being flexible within a framework.

553

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

554

June Hogan: And also I think, and

this goes back to the comms, but

555

have- being able to share enough

information with people so that

556

they can understand the rationale.

557

They might not agree with it, they very

well w- may never kinda come to terms

558

with it, but they at least can understand

how you've arrived at this position.

559

And kind of, that announcement,

rationale will stay with you

560

through the whole process, and

you'll keep kinda going back to it.

561

And

562

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

563

June Hogan: with quite a

large organization, and they

564

were making redundancies in

different offices across the UK.

565

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Okay.

566

June Hogan: And I'll always remember

this one individual, were the only

567

person at risk in that office.

568

Quite a small satellite office.

569

They thought they were the only

person at risk in the whole company.

570

They did not

571

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

572

June Hogan: that the broader business

was making redundancies in different

573

areas because the line manager either, I

don't know the reason why, hadn't shared

574

it with them, didn't know, whatever.

575

And when that individual came to

work with us we said, "We've been

576

working with other colleagues," 'cause

he said, "Oh, I'm the only one."

577

We said, we didn't obviously go into

detail, said, "Oh, we've had other

578

colleagues we've been supporting."

579

But it was like a weight was

lifted off his shoulders.

580

This poor person felt like he

581

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

582

June Hogan: because the

context wasn't there.

583

And so I think that maybe they

didn't ask questions, I don't know.

584

But what you said there about making

sure that people have got enough

585

information to engage with what's going

on, but also try and understand it.

586

Because as they

587

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

588

June Hogan: organization, they carry

all this with them, as and it just

589

brought to mind that, that … And

I'll never forget that situation that

590

person explained to us, and I thought

that could've been so much different

591

for them if they just had a little

bit more information that was shared.

592

So that whole k- I guess it goes

back to the comms plan, so making

593

sure that the packs are there, you've

got all the information, that the

594

satellite offices know they've got to

go through all of this with everybody

595

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: There,

there's definitely a piece about the

596

particular language that you use.

597

I remembered about a particular scenario

we had where we had written something

598

like we would do a thorough assessment

or, it was some- something to do with

599

the criteria of how, how we were going

to process this particular pool and make

600

a decision on which roles were going.

601

And whatever the specific wording

was fundamental to- The people that

602

we were putting at risk and who

were involved in that consultation

603

process because they were a group of

people where words was their thing.

604

Where we say I'm saying thorough, it

might not, it doesn't really matter

605

what the exact phrase was, but, our

definition of thorough, their definition

606

of thorough may be two different things.

607

They wanted to know what does

that look like precisely.

608

We would see that as being X,

Y, Z, plus all of these things,

609

and we were like, "Okay, we were

thinking like X, Y, Z," right?

610

So I think and, A so there's

a piece around the language

611

being very important there.

612

But I think we had the conversation of

it was also there was a bit around the

613

trust that is there, and actually that's

something we haven't talked about, which

614

is what's the existing relationship

between whoever it is that's managing that

615

process and supporting that process from

a leadership and HR perspective, and the

616

people that you're actually talking to.

617

Because if they don't have an innate

trust in you already, it is not going

618

to get stronger by going through

a redundancy program with them.

619

And I think what that particular sort

of phrasing did was emphasize actually

620

that lack of relationship between

the individuals and the management

621

who were running it, the HRs, the,

our HR contacts who were running it.

622

Until we went into those meetings, and

I was one of the HR people involved,

623

I hadn't met a number of those people.

624

I knew who they were.

625

I knew roughly what their jobs

were, but that's not the same as

626

having a relationship with them.

627

So they were defensive, they were

skeptical, they were looking for every

628

opportunity to go hang on a minute.

629

Why?

630

Where has this come from?

631

What's happened here?"

632

And we can forget sometimes that actually

as HR, part of our role is to develop

633

relationships before we need them.

634

I've worked with so many

different people- Over the years.

635

And there are some relationships

where they start off rocky.

636

I'm gonna be honest, like there are a

few meetings where you're like, "Okay."

637

But actually as you get to know that

person, as you work with them, as you

638

understand more about, what they need

from something, it makes a big difference.

639

And it's those sort of relationships that

have a massive impact on how smoothly

640

or not a redundancy program goes.

641

And when it comes to what happens

next, it's also around, what happens

642

to the people who are staying behind,

and what relationship have you got

643

with them, and how do they perceive

you based on how their colleagues

644

were treated before they left.

645

June Hogan: Absolutely.

646

That's like the thread that runs

through all of this, and what you said

647

there about having those relationships

and, building that culture, having,

648

the psychological safety and

649

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Massive.

650

June Hogan: where people under-

understand and trust in leadership

651

so that when hard decisions have

to be made they're still gonna be

652

tough for the individual impacted.

653

but there's that connection, with- What

the leadership team, what's happening.

654

And I remember when I was on the

other side of the table and the words

655

were said to me, and you naturally go

into defensive mode because someone's

656

about to take away your livelihood

657

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yes.

658

June Hogan: the other

things that go with that.

659

And I had huge respect for my line

manager, and I'm still very good friends

660

with her, but, and in that moment, at

that time, I was n- I was not happy.

661

But for me to be in that

position of hang on a minute.

662

What's going on here?"

663

So as you say, i- it- you can expect

those different reactions, but if

664

you're coming at it from a fundamental

place of having a good relationship

665

treating them as an individual, as

you said before, being flexible, and

666

really thinking about what does this

person need at this moment in time?

667

So this theme that I'm picking up

all the way through, and I was making

668

little notes as w- we were going

along, is around, flexibility for the

669

individual flexibility for the process.

670

This notion of, yes, we're working

within a framework, but that

671

doesn't mean to say that we can't

flex and do things differently.

672

Having that notion of

keeping communicating, so not

673

having that void of silence.

674

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah, massive.

675

June Hogan: regular touchpoints

in it being visible, being open to

676

those questions, as you said before,

because you want to hear what people,

677

what questions people have got so

you can share that with others.

678

So there was loads in there

that I was hearing in terms of,

679

themes for someone to take away.

680

So if someone listening to this

is on the verge of preparing a

681

comms plan for, it could be three

people, it could be 300 maybe

682

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Yeah.

683

June Hogan: what would be some of

your top tips as to how they can make

684

that land as, as well as possible

at that stage in the process?

685

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: I think

top tip number one has to be step

686

back and actually think about it.

687

And I'm not talking about the meetings.

688

We have a tendency to plan the

meetings to the nth degree.

689

It's the bits in between.

690

So like I say, it's looking at are we

gonna produce an extra resource for

691

people that helps them to understand?

692

Are we doing anything around, If

we've got people who are approaching,

693

perhaps considering taking pensions

and stuff like that, what other support

694

do we need aside from internal HR?

695

So is that support from, I've known

… We've had recruitment agencies maybe

696

come in, do sessions around updating CVs.

697

We've had outplacement support, for

particular roles or particular technical

698

skills where actually it's more difficult

perhaps to go and find that particular

699

role and needing a bit more support.

700

People who are actually not quite sure

what the heck they're gonna do next.

701

So I think there's a piece around,

those touch points and resources

702

that you make available to people.

703

There's definitely a piece around who

your audience is and what they need.

704

So if they're process people, they

need to understand what the process is.

705

If they are people-people , then they

are going to need something different

706

'cause they need to understand what's

the impact on themselves or the people

707

around them family, that sort of thing.

708

And it's looking at, what are

the key pieces of information we

709

need to get across around that.

710

And this is gonna possibly sound like

a bit of a weird one, but you also want

711

to think about, how do you need the

business and the leadership team and the

712

HR team to be viewed when you're done?

713

Because there aren't many circumstances

where HR teams are actually making

714

the entire company redundant.

715

You're normally making a pocket of it.

716

It's a program because you need to

reduce heads in a particular part of

717

the business, or you're transferring

a certain section of the business.

718

So thinking about actually what

comes next, and how do we embed

719

that, that's as important as

the redundancy program itself.

720

And I think for me, that's probably my top

tip, because a lot of people think about-

721

how do we get through the actual process?

722

They forget about how do

we embed the next bit.

723

June Hogan: So that, that comms

plan that goes beyond the kind

724

of the last day for people.

725

Katie, there's been so much in

there that I've really enjoyed

726

unpacking with you, as they say.

727

and looking at it through that lens

of what you do now in terms of making

728

sure that communications are clear,

and that they land well for people and

729

you've got the messaging right and all

of that good stuff that I know you do,

730

and you've done for me in the past, I

know you do for lots of clients as well.

731

So if someone listening to this wants

to find out more about what you do and

732

get in touch, where can they find you?

733

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: So

you can find me on LinkedIn.

734

If you look for Katy Jo HR

copywriter, you'll probably find me.

735

If you look for HR copywriter, it

generally comes up, to be fair.

736

And the other one is on my website,

which is katyjoecopywriting.co.uk.

737

Those are the two main

places you can find me.

738

June Hogan: Wonderful.

739

And I'll put the links

to that in the show notes

740

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Fabulous.

741

June Hogan: reach out and get in touch.

742

Thank you, Katie.

743

I've really enjoyed that conversation.

744

And there's loads of tips

and loads of value in there.

745

So yeah, thank you so much.

746

Katie Jo - HR Copywriter: Me too.

747

Thank you for the invite.

748

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

749

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

750

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

751

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

752

people who are managing redundancies.

753

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

754

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

755

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

756

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

757

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

758

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.