Shownotes
It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I head to the Autos de France event at the Foreign Point Circuit in Cheshire, a celebration of all things French on four wheels. Joined by Chris Lee as I immerse myself in the vibrant atmosphere, meeting passionate owners and enthusiasts, particularly those with a love for the legendary Alpine A110.
Together, Chris and I explore what makes these cars so special, from their rich heritage and engineering innovation to their unmistakable character on the road. We delve into the technical aspects of performance and handling, revealing the traits that distinguish the A110 from its rivals and sustain its legacy.
The episode rounds off with a look at the enduring charm of French motoring, a testament to the style, flair, and community spirit that continue to make these cars so deeply admired across generations.
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Transcripts
Foreign point circuit in Cheshire hosts Autos de France, a celebration of French cars.
Speaker A: me, Mike stone, decided that: Speaker A:And I'm joined by Chris Lee, head honcho with the Lancashire Automobile Club, and fellow Alpine a110 owner.
Speaker A:Chris, welcome to the backseat driver once again.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's great to be back.
Speaker A:Alpines, how many have we got here today?
Speaker B:If you count the two electric ones, we've got 16.
Speaker B:If you don't count, we've got 14.
Speaker A:How numerous are these in England?
Speaker B:There's a few around, but for example, the one I've got, the Legion GT, there's 30 registered, but at the far end of the row from us, there is a Spanish A110, an original Farsi, a proper one.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's the way I put it.
Speaker B: won the World Championship in: Speaker B:I can remember those I was marshalling on the RAC rally in those days.
Speaker B:I can remember them coming through the forest.
Speaker B:They were brilliant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Driven by my friend, without being too boastful, Bernard Doynees, who was the man who introduced me to the modern A110, who described them as a little bit heavier but far better built.
Speaker B:Well, that's a good way of putting it.
Speaker B: ute peak, the early ones, the: Speaker B:Mid engine power through the back wheels, light as a feather, danced as they came through the forest.
Speaker A:I mean, when I drove the two Rotos, we got, or we came up against, original Alpine A110s and as you just mentioned, the fragility, each car had a full crew with it.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker B:But the other way of looking at it is our friend Mike Wood was in the works.
Speaker B:Datsun240Zs, and he actually described the A110 as their nemesis.
Speaker B:If the A110s got to the finish, they were going to beat the Datsuns any day of the week.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I mean, in my opinion, and this is my opinion as regards the modern recreations, I mean, Fiat have done it, this quite a lot.
Speaker A:Do it.
Speaker A:BMW, theoretically have done it with the Mini and failed miserably.
Speaker A:They do.
Speaker A:Apart from the rear end, they do look remarkably like the original coils do the modern Alpines.
Speaker B:They do.
Speaker B:And even if you look at the back wings on the modern car, there's two little indentations at each side that are exactly where the air intakes were for the original.
Speaker B:So they've done the best.
Speaker B:The whole thing is just sort of like a scaled up version.
Speaker B:Now, I had the 124 Spider before the Alpine and that's in the same mould, the Fiat 124 Spider, but this is far more in the original concept.
Speaker B:Ultra lightweight, reasonably sized engine, only 1.8 litre.
Speaker B:And on our two cars we're pushing out what, 256 brake horsepower.
Speaker B:There's a few cars here that are pumping out 290.
Speaker B:The later models.
Speaker B:You don't need that power.
Speaker B:You've got a 060 in 4.6 seconds, which is far quicker than the original car could manage.
Speaker B:You know, you talk about a different league.
Speaker B:You're not a supercar, but you're a bloody quick one.
Speaker A:Well, I've been told that on the circuit and on the twisties, it has to be one hell of a driver in a 911 to keep up with the modern Alpines.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, I've actually seen that the, the problem they've got.
Speaker B:I mean, let's forget the 911 for a minute because that's a different car.
Speaker B:Think about the Cayman, which is the nearest car really to the Alpine.
Speaker B:It's 400kg heavier than an Alpine and the weight is behind the back axle, not mid engined like we are.
Speaker B:So the consequence is that we've got totally neutral handling.
Speaker B:They haven't, they're very tail happy.
Speaker B:So you're spending half your time in even a modern Porsche having to deal with this pendulum effect from the back.
Speaker B:The A110 doesn't.
Speaker B:I'm no fast driver, but the way that it handles.
Speaker B:I've driven stuff for years, you know, I've won championships.
Speaker B:I don't consider myself fast, but the Alpine, you drive it with your fingertips.
Speaker B:You don't have to wrestle it.
Speaker B:But you try driving a 911 like that, you're going to be in trouble.
Speaker B:The 911 driver has to actually master the car, if you know what I mean.
Speaker B:Well, crack it.
Speaker B:You should.
Speaker B:You don't get this with the Alpine.
Speaker B:It's so light, so delicate.
Speaker A:The one problem I found when I first acquired mine was I over steered it.
Speaker A:You don't need the steering input that you think you will.
Speaker A:I discovered I was going around a far tighter corner than there was in front of me.
Speaker A:I've had to modify my steering technique with these.
Speaker B:And that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker B:With a 911, you throw it into a corner.
Speaker B:With the a 110, it's fingertip.
Speaker B:If you start trying to rag it from side to side, like you would do in many other cars, it will just.
Speaker B:You'll never get it.
Speaker B:You've got to be in tune with the car.
Speaker B:The moment you and the car are in tune with each other, it's magic.
Speaker A:And, I mean, they are a delight to drive and you can leave certain very fast cars for dead in them.
Speaker A:But, I mean, in France, the modern Alpine has caught on beyond credibility.
Speaker A:There are hundreds of them.
Speaker A:You go to any French circuit, not only are they the circuit car for teaching people in, but they're there in their drills.
Speaker A:Do you think they will catch on to the same degree in England?
Speaker A:Can the English not understand them?
Speaker B:I think the English not understanding them is part of the problem.
Speaker B:There is also this thing about French cars in England.
Speaker B:I don't know what it is.
Speaker B:I mean, we're stood in a field.
Speaker A:We'Re a bit surrounded by French cars.
Speaker A:It's French day, isn't it?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:We've got Peugeot, we've got citrons, we've got two CVs out on the track at the moment.
Speaker B:But the number of people, when you say you've got a French car.
Speaker B:Oh, the cachet of owning a Porsche in this country is really something special.
Speaker B:And I have an Alfa Romeo and people say, oh, rust and all the rest of it.
Speaker B:Well, I've had Alfa Romeo's for many, many years, I don't suffer from that.
Speaker B:But you still have this leftover feeling about French cars, about Italian cars, you know, concepts that are in people's heads.
Speaker B:I think the.
Speaker B:I may not like electric cars, but I think.
Speaker B:Nor do I. I think that the new Alpine electric car, which is based on the Renault 5, is a fantastic piece of kit for what it is.
Speaker B:But I'm looking forward to driving the A110 electric that comes out at the end of next year.
Speaker B:I might not buy one, but I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker A:And the one thing I say, people say to me, because they still aren't recognised in England.
Speaker A:I mean, it says Alpine, but because it's French, it's Alpine.
Speaker A:They're named after the Alpine Ral.
Speaker A:I'll say, ultimately, it's a Renault.
Speaker A:And they look stunned when you say at art, it's a Renault, as the Alpines always were.
Speaker B:Well, I'll give you a better story than that.
Speaker B:I was at a show with it not long ago and a guy walked up and he says, I like your Alpena.
Speaker B:I said, it's not an Alpena, it's an Alpine.
Speaker B:No, no, he says, BMW, I own the car.
Speaker B:And he's telling me it's a BMW.
Speaker A:But no, it's a fantastic.
Speaker A:I must say I've never seen as many French cars in one place since I was last in Paris.
Speaker A:But Chris Lee, thanks very much for joining me once again on the backseat driver.
Speaker B:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker B:Thank you, Mark.
Speaker A:I'm here with John Brady, Alton Park French Day Alpine display and the one thing about John is Alpine is the real deal.
Speaker A:They don't say the rest of them aren't, but this says Alpine.
Speaker A:Renault Fazi Espana.
Speaker A:John, welcome to the backseat driver.
Speaker A:And what exactly is your A110?
Speaker C:It's a Spanish built one.
Speaker C:Most of the cars were built in France, about 8 1/2 thousand, 1 1/2 thousand roughly in Spain and then about a thousand in Bulgaria, Mexico and Brazil in total.
Speaker C:So this is Spanish 1.
Speaker A:What does the Farsi bit stand for?
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker C:I've forgotten the end bit.
Speaker C:It's Federation Automobile something something.
Speaker C:But it's the, it's a factory that's still there in northern Spain today and it's a factory that was building Renault cars of the period in the 70s and whatever region was Alpine did a subcontract basis contract with them to build these under license, using probably locally built engines as part of the deal.
Speaker C: only built three versions, an: Speaker C: This is a: Speaker C: And in France they built: Speaker C:So it was a bigger, bigger engine range in France, I'm not sure.
Speaker C:Mexico, Brazil and Bulgaria they'd be limited engine range, but basically the shells are the same.
Speaker C:All the running gear is Renault 8, except in the later versions which had different design suspension.
Speaker C:So that's about it.
Speaker A:How long have you owned this one?
Speaker C:It's 35 years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we were saying before you went on air, you saw one somewhere and fell in love with it.
Speaker C:Saw one on holiday in Spain in the early 70s, outside a little restaurant in the country and I just had to stop and take a, take a picture of it and that Picture sowed the seed for why.
Speaker C:Eventually I looked to try and find one and did.
Speaker C:35 years ago.
Speaker A:Have you had much to do to this?
Speaker C:When I first bought, hardly ran.
Speaker C:I knew it was.
Speaker C:Well, at the time it was known that these cars could be found in Spain.
Speaker C:A bit ropey for not a lot of money.
Speaker C:And people who'd already were aware of the model and owned them were bringing them in in bulk.
Speaker C:And the guy I bought this from, he brought three in and this is one of them.
Speaker C:And it was.
Speaker C:It was a bit ropey and so I spent three years dealing with it mechanically to get it run and left the bodywork till later, but took me three years to get it runnable.
Speaker C:And then I ran it like that for.
Speaker C:Till about eight years ago and decided it's time to restore it again because it was getting a bit tired in places.
Speaker C:I built another.
Speaker C: Built a: Speaker C:And I refurbished everything that needed doing and generally improved it.
Speaker C:And that took about two and a half years to do, to do all that.
Speaker A:Is it a car you get to use a lot?
Speaker C:Not particularly, no.
Speaker C:Mostly shows now, so maybe 12 to 15 events a year, something like that.
Speaker A:Does it live up to what you were hoping when you first acquired it and saw the photo, took the photograph?
Speaker C:It does, yes.
Speaker C:Still get a lot of enjoyment driving.
Speaker C:It's not particularly fast.
Speaker C:Holds the road really well.
Speaker C:What else can I say?
Speaker C:It's noisy, things rattle because it's so light.
Speaker C:You notice all the bumps in the road.
Speaker C:But it's a great pleasure to drive it.
Speaker A:Now, as I said, you are the man today who has one better term, a proper A110.
Speaker A:You're surrounded by the modern versions.
Speaker A:What is your opinion of the modern version?
Speaker A:And be honest.
Speaker C:Well, I definitely like them.
Speaker C:I've never driven one, which I must do.
Speaker C:All the people I know who own them just can't fault them.
Speaker C:Although this.
Speaker C:That guy at the end said he's.
Speaker C:There are some flies.
Speaker A:There are niggles.
Speaker C:There are niggles, yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:When they first came out, which is.
Speaker C:I mean, myself, and people tend to call it the new A110.
Speaker C:Well, it's eight years old now, as you know, but when they first came out, I thought, I'll wait for three years.
Speaker C:They should have halved in value, but they didn't.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, there's still this.
Speaker C:The whole.
Speaker C:The value is tremendously well, which must be a reflection on how good they are.
Speaker C:Yeah, but I would have, ideally, I would have Wanted a more practical car because I think the storage space is pretty poor in them and.
Speaker A:Oh, it is.
Speaker A:It's next to abysmal.
Speaker C:It is, yeah.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But other than that I can't justify another car because I hardly drive enough as it is.
Speaker C:But I definitely do like them.
Speaker C:Not so sure about the way they've.
Speaker C:Although I maybe understand it in a way about the electric ones.
Speaker C:I've had a look at these two here and I think it's great.
Speaker C:This is the A290 I'm talking about.
Speaker C:I think it's great as the Renault 5E tech.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I'm not so sure about.
Speaker A:About it being.
Speaker C:But I could understand why.
Speaker C:Why they've done it because it's.
Speaker C:I consider them.
Speaker C:I might be wrong as being in a transition mode to when they go full.
Speaker C:Well, they are going full electric from this year, I think, but.
Speaker C:And I'm not keen on.
Speaker C:I've only seen pictures of it but the A390 electric SUV I don't like at all.
Speaker A:No, it's like when Lotus made an SUV.
Speaker A:Lotus don't make SUVs.
Speaker C:I saw 2A show this year, 2Lotus, and I thought they were dreadful SUVs.
Speaker C:It just looked awful.
Speaker A:It's one of the reasons the manufacturers no longer invite me to review their cars because I had a habit of saying that's terrible.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:But we'll see.
Speaker C:I mean they're supposedly going to bring out a.
Speaker C:A full electric sports.
Speaker C:Well, a version of the A110 but we'll see when it.
Speaker C:When it happens.
Speaker C:But I don't know.
Speaker A:John Brady, thanks very much for bringing the original one.
Speaker A:Long may rain, a long may petrol engines raid.
Speaker A:John Brady, thanks so much for joining me on the backseat Driver.
Speaker B:Pleasure.
Speaker C:Thanks.
Speaker C:Thanks for asking the question.
Speaker A:Here at Alton park with Dave Cowley and his Alpine GTA V6 Turbo.
Speaker A:Dave, welcome to the backseat driver.
Speaker D:Welcome.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker A:These are a seriously misunderstood car.
Speaker A:I mean the Alpine in England is a misunderstood car but these truly are, aren't they?
Speaker A:Because I mean in many ways these were like the.
Speaker A:The derivative of the 310, weren't they?
Speaker D:Yes, that's correct.
Speaker D:And it was the first collaboration between.
Speaker D:Were Renault and Alpine.
Speaker D:So after Renault took them over and I think this is more of a GT car rather than a folk track rally focused car like the A110 and 310.
Speaker D:But yeah, and it's surprisingly feels like a modern car to drive even now.
Speaker A:How old is this one?
Speaker D: made in: Speaker D:And this champagne beige colour is the only one in the country as well.
Speaker A:So what size engine is this?
Speaker D:2.5 turbo, producing 200 brake horsepower.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, that wouldn't be bad for its day, would it?
Speaker D:No.
Speaker D: And the car only weighs: Speaker A:How long have you owned it?
Speaker D:I bought it in.
Speaker D:It's 11 years.
Speaker D: I bought it in: Speaker A:And that's the one thing we're saying before we went on air.
Speaker A:They're a stunning looking car, but no disrespect, they don't bring fortunes, do they?
Speaker A:Because I think probably once again it's because people don't really know what they are or understand them.
Speaker D:Yeah, the dealer that had it, he was a guy who used to take the Part X's from a local BMW dealer and anything weird he'd take and I don't think he really knew what it was.
Speaker D:Anyway, we got him down to 4,250and I bought it on the day that I went from down there in Kent, So I traveled 200 miles for it.
Speaker D:And since then I've had to have the engine, some work on the engine, I had to have some welding done.
Speaker D:I've got about eight and a half in the car and roughly now they normally say a good one will fetch 16 to maybe 20 on a good day.
Speaker A:What's it like to look after them?
Speaker A:Because are parts readily available?
Speaker A:Because, I mean, that's the one thing about the Alpine.
Speaker A:Even though they have a performance engine, in the end of the day it's a Renault engine and you can get bits for Renaults as a rule.
Speaker D:Yes, you can.
Speaker D:There is a specialist in Germany that I think they bought up all the spares, so there's quite a few body panels and bits and pieces you can get.
Speaker D:There's certain things like the air vent behind the side window there, they're unobtainable.
Speaker D:So if that got broken, I'd have to get 3D printed or something like that.
Speaker E:They do get.
Speaker D:They're harder and harder to get parts, but there are some specialists in the UK and they normally carry some parts, you know, so you can always go to them.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But basic servicing is no problem.
Speaker D:No, no, I, I have it serviced at a local.
Speaker D:Well, I have it MOT'd at a local garage.
Speaker D:I do use this specialist up in Doncaster to do the servicing because the guy Lee, he knows everything about them, so.
Speaker A:But do, do you use It a lot.
Speaker D:Not so much this year because I've had a new right hip and I've been out of action for 12 years.
Speaker D:For 12 months.
Speaker D:No, 12 weeks.
Speaker D:Sorry.
Speaker D:But the now, I mean, I've done a couple of tours around Wales in it.
Speaker D:I do a series of car shows through the summer.
Speaker D:So it does get used at least probably two or three times a month.
Speaker D:And there's plans next year to go down to Le Mon in it for the, for the Le Mans Classic.
Speaker A:So do you get the classic question?
Speaker A:Because I get that with my modern A110.
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker E:Always?
Speaker D:Yes, always.
Speaker D:What is it?
Speaker D:And that.
Speaker D:What was nice, I mean, traveling here this morning I was coming down the M6 cuz I live just outside Stafford and a car pulled at the side of me, pipped his horn, put his thumb up to me.
Speaker D:Just wanted to acknowledge the fact that.
Speaker D:Acknowledge the car.
Speaker D:And we have had.
Speaker D:I was on the A38 once and there was a guy hanging out of a SUV taking photos of it as we were, as we were going.
Speaker D:So, so it is a nice, it's, it's a nice, it's a hobby and it's also a nice thing to own and you get a lot of interaction with people.
Speaker D:Somebody always wants to cut, you know, if I go and fill her up with fuel because I have to lift the bonnet because the fuel cells at the front.
Speaker D:Somebody always wants to come over and have a. Oh, what were you doing?
Speaker D:And once.
Speaker D:And then asks you about the car.
Speaker D:So yeah, it's, it's a nice, it's a nice thing to own.
Speaker A:Dave Cowley, thanks so much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker D:Thank you very much.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker A:With Mick Sultan, who's running the French simulator.
Speaker A:Now, I must confess I was intrigued.
Speaker A:How do you simulate France?
Speaker A:Go on, tell us.
Speaker E:Well, it's a little difficult to simulate French or Frenchman.
Speaker E:However, we are running three French cars.
Speaker A:Simulators.
Speaker E:On a simulator.
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:We'll just stress that we're running a Citron Saxo, a Junior Saxo.
Speaker E:We're also running a clio and a 2cv.
Speaker E:All three cars are here present today and racing in the real world.
Speaker E:So to keep in theme with the Auto de France event, we are running those three cars on the simulators.
Speaker A:Are they simulating on Alton park or are you running them on a French circuit?
Speaker E:No, they're running as Alton Park.
Speaker E:As Alton park is the circuit they're running today is the international, the full circuit.
Speaker E:So we're simulating all three cars on that international circuit.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:Can you simulate French circuits?
Speaker E:Yes, I can.
Speaker E:I can do Magnacours and Le Mans and all of these places, no problem at all.
Speaker E:In fact, I can do any European circuit with any car pretty much, because.
Speaker A:That'S the one thing about France people don't realize.
Speaker A:France is full of circuits.
Speaker A:I've never been in a country where nearly around every corner you find a circuit.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:I mean, they are more into motorsport than people realize, as you say.
Speaker E:And you know, there's lots of karting circuits out there as well as, you know, bike circuit and bike circuits.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:So we've got car circuits.
Speaker E:Bike circuits.
Speaker E:But yes, I can do any car combination with any track.
Speaker E:If you said you wanted to do Delboy Trotters three wheeler around Monaco, then I can do it.
Speaker A:Which car is proving the most popular.
Speaker E:Today at the moment?
Speaker E:The Clio, probably because it's fastest and secondly, because a lot of the younger generation, let's say, of which I'm not a member anymore, nor am I.
Speaker E:They, they struggle with a clutch and a gearbox where.
Speaker E:Because the two CV and the Saxo, of course, inherently are manual gearboxes with a clutch, where the Clio is a sequential gearbox so they can use their flappy paddles, which they're all very familiar with.
Speaker A:That's one of my problems.
Speaker A:I have a modern A110 that's either automatic or flappy paddles and I'm still working out.
Speaker A:I tend to leave it in auto because paddles just.
Speaker A:You don't seem to get the gearing, the, the downshifts like you do in a manual gearbox.
Speaker A:I mean, in the manual simulators, do you get proper manual sensations?
Speaker E:Yes, indeed, yeah.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:If you, you can.
Speaker E:If you miss shift or downshift too early, you can damage the engine, damage the gearbox.
Speaker E:So I try and set the disciplines up so they're as true to life as possible, but still enjoyable for the general public who aren't perhaps, you know, so experienced on a racetrack.
Speaker A:How many laps do they get to do?
Speaker E:I do it on a minute basis.
Speaker E:So we charge £15 for 15 minutes and in that 15 minutes, my advice to everybody, and I'll coach them if they're struggling, is to build the speed into the session.
Speaker E:Because if you go out and try and break the world record on lap one, I'm afraid it's not going to happen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, I mean, I've been told that, I mean, I know professional racing drivers who use simulators and they said you can now practice.
Speaker A:So when you get there, I mean, a great friend of mine, racing driver, raced at Circuit of the Americas last year for the first time.
Speaker A:But he'd done a lot of simulator work and when he got there he said, it's basically, he said, I knew the circuit.
Speaker E:Exactly.
Speaker E:I'm now selling simulators, having done it for quite some time now.
Speaker E:I'm now selling simulators into places like Aston Martin, for example.
Speaker E:Just purchased two from me.
Speaker E:I'm doing a lot with the historic trade.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:A gentleman came to me at Donington Historic Festival a few months ago and was racing for the first time at Le Mans Classic in a Bentley Speed 8.
Speaker E:And he came to me and said, oh, he said, I've always fancied a simulator, but I don't suppose you'll have my car.
Speaker E:And of course I said I did.
Speaker E:And then I said I had the track.
Speaker E:He did purchase a simulator from me.
Speaker E:He practiced for one month and he rang me from Le Mans.
Speaker E:He was like a young man in his teens.
Speaker E:He was laughing and giggling so much he just won his class and first time he'd ever been to Le Mans in the Classic with his Bentley and he won his class and he put the whole thing down to the practice he'd done in the simulator.
Speaker E:So things have moved on from when I was a boy, which is a long time ago, basically.
Speaker A:I mean, they were like arcade games, weren't they?
Speaker A:It was like nothing.
Speaker A:I mean, a friend of mine was an absolute maestro on these arcade things and he said, I'm surprised you can't do it.
Speaker A:I said, it doesn't do anything like a coy does.
Speaker E:No, exactly right.
Speaker E:And you know, I do get people of a certain age, let's say, you know, the, the wrong side of 40, 50, who keep going, me as well, who have never driven a, a simulator and their expectation is that it is exactly the same as the real world.
Speaker E:Well, unfortunately it's not.
Speaker E:There's a clue in the name, as I always say, it's a simulator.
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:And you need to understand what the simulator is telling you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:The simulator is there to simulate the car and track, I. E. Braking points, speed, etc.
Speaker E:But the signals you get from the simulator, you have to learn how to interpret them.
Speaker E:Yeah, they're all there.
Speaker E:Brake bias is there, brake lock up, anti lock brakes are there.
Speaker E:You can feel understeer, oversteer, bumps in the track.
Speaker E:It's all there, but you don't feel it through your backside.
Speaker E:And that's what people expect.
Speaker E:And I can't make that happen, I'm afraid, because it is a Simulator and not a car.
Speaker E:But it's very close.
Speaker E:Very close.
Speaker A:Can you dial in tyre degradation?
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker E:Everything's in there.
Speaker E:We make it as real as we can.
Speaker E:If the car in real world, for example, has three options of tyre, normally a softer medium and hard, we can give that as an option.
Speaker E:We can alter suspension geometry, caster, camber, spring height.
Speaker E:All of the things that you can change in the real world are variables in the simulator and they all make a difference.
Speaker E:Tyre pressures, all of the things that make a difference.
Speaker A:Problem is, you're talking to a Luddite here.
Speaker A:It took me four years to learn how to turn on my MacBook.
Speaker A:But all the best with the French.
Speaker A:As I said, it just intrigued me.
Speaker A:In this French, I thought, how do we simulate France in Cheshire?
Speaker A:Now we know.
Speaker A:Thank you very much indeed, young man.
Speaker E:You're very welcome.
Speaker E:Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker E:Cheers.
Speaker A:Here with John Joyce and his Citroen sm.
Speaker A:Magnificent vehicle.
Speaker A:How long have you owned this?
Speaker F: I bought it in about: Speaker F:So what's that?
Speaker F:Eight years?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Finding a good one, was it?
Speaker A:Hard work?
Speaker F:Very hard work.
Speaker F:I've.
Speaker F:I've wanted one of those since I was a child because my dad used to work in a Citroen dealer.
Speaker F:So I remember sitting in them, brand new, and I looked for quite a few.
Speaker F:A lot of the ones I looked at were ropey and so I wasn't really particularly interested in getting involved with one.
Speaker F:But then I asked the SM club about one, actually, that was coming up in an auction, and their advice was, don't look for an auction, but there's a guy who's had one for 30 years, it's known to the club, he's selling it.
Speaker F:Go and have a look at that.
Speaker F:So I went, and as soon as I saw it, I knew that it was.
Speaker F:It was right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, how does the combination work for the listeners?
Speaker A:I mean, it's a Citroen body with a Maserati engine, is it not?
Speaker F:It is, but at the time, of course, Citroen owned Maserati and the engine was designed specifically for that car.
Speaker F:So it's a 90 degree V rather than a 60.
Speaker F:And it was designed like that in order to fit under a low bonnet.
Speaker F:So I think it works brilliantly well.
Speaker F:I've got a DS as well, under 2 CV, and I had a CX and I don't think there's any issue with the marrying up of it.
Speaker F:It sounds great, it works perfectly, it goes very well.
Speaker A:What is it like to drive?
Speaker F:Absolutely fantastic.
Speaker F:It's very smooth by modern standards.
Speaker F:It's not the fastest thing in the world.
Speaker F:So, you know, an RS Focus or something like that would be a lot faster around the roads.
Speaker F:But once you get on the motorway, you can cruise along at that, let's say if you're abroad, 90 miles an hour and it's just silky smoke smooth, lovely sound out of the engine.
Speaker F:It's just on a nice rev range then, and it just belts along.
Speaker F:It's very, very smooth.
Speaker A:I've heard that they have to be looked after.
Speaker A:They are a car that requires maintenance.
Speaker A:I know all cars require maintenance, but yes and no.
Speaker F:I think in the early days, in the original days, they did have issues.
Speaker F:They had timing chain issues, they had issues with the valves.
Speaker F:By now most of those problems have been ironed out.
Speaker F:So if the car's had the works done on the chains and on the valves and it's well serviced and the oil's replaced and everything else, I don't think it's any more complicated than lots of modern cars.
Speaker F:So I've had this since that time, mechanically, I've had virtually nothing done to it.
Speaker F:I had the air conditioning replaced with modern air conditioning because it wasn't working, which was a common thing in the day.
Speaker F:I've had the alternator replaced with a modern one with an inbuilt regulator, modern radiator, modern fans.
Speaker F:Mechanically, that's the only work I've had to do to that car since I got it.
Speaker F:And other than that, I have it serviced once a year, oil change once a year, checked over once a year and it goes superbly now.
Speaker A:I mean, these cars had a competition history.
Speaker A:They did extremely well on the endurance desert rallying, but I mean, ultimately they're a long distance grand tourer.
Speaker F:They are.
Speaker F:I'm not sure how they would have worked in a rally personally, because they don't strike me as being that maneuverable and they do roll around a lot.
Speaker F:So I just don't know how they did that, if I'm honest.
Speaker A:But is it a car you drive any distance?
Speaker A:Do you manage to go a long way in it?
Speaker F:Yes, we, we drive, we drive to London probably twice a year.
Speaker F:We live up in Lancashire, we drive down to London twice, twice a year for club events.
Speaker F:So we, we are happy to get it on the motorway and, and just disappear.
Speaker F:Happy to sit in traffic with it as well.
Speaker F:It's not a great car to sit in traffic if it's raining and visibility is not good because it's a very low car.
Speaker F:Yeah, it doesn't have hazard light so if anything happens you're on your own.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker F:And the rear lights are very low to the ground.
Speaker F:So in a bad day, in bad rain, you feel very vulnerable on a motorway.
Speaker F:I certainly wouldn't want to be broken down on a smart motorway in it.
Speaker A:Yeah, but no, I mean, how do you go for parts for them?
Speaker A:Like anything like that or are they plenty fuller?
Speaker A:Do people reproduce them?
Speaker F:They do reproduce them.
Speaker F:There's a really, really good parts supply for them.
Speaker F:There are only about 13,000 of those cars but produced ever.
Speaker F:I don't know how many of those would still be left.
Speaker F:So it's not a mass market car in, in that sense.
Speaker F:But there's a very good parts supply.
Speaker F:It's fair to say most of the part supply is, is outside the uk.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker F:So the Netherlands and France really are where you have to go.
Speaker F:But there's a good SM club in England which has got used parts supply and remakes some parts and there's an.
Speaker F:I'm also a member of the SM club de France which has got a great part supply supply so you can come by the parts body panels.
Speaker F:Bit more difficult but.
Speaker F:But there are plenty of panels around used so I've not really struggled.
Speaker F:If you look on ebay, you'll always find something for an SM and when, when you see something, you buy it and then you've got it just in case.
Speaker F:Exactly.
Speaker A:Well, I mean they are a supremely elegant vehicle.
Speaker F:I think so, yeah.
Speaker F:No, I think so, yeah.
Speaker F:It's.
Speaker F:It never lets.
Speaker F:It never lets me down and I never get out of it and think that wasn't a great drive.
Speaker F:It's just fantastic.
Speaker A:Thanks very much for joining me on the backseat driving.
Speaker A:No problem.
Speaker F:Thank you.
Speaker A:With Glenn Oswin, racing driver of a 2cv.
Speaker A:I'll ask you the question why?
Speaker G:It's just good fun really.
Speaker G:A car that's easy to maintain.
Speaker G:Easy.
Speaker G:It's not that expensive as far as racing goes and I've always been a TCV enthusiast before as a racer, so it's just natural sort of thing to do really.
Speaker A:How long have you been racing them?
Speaker G:I've been racing this car for 15 years now but I've been involved in the championship for getting on for nearly 20 years.
Speaker A:What do you have to do to a standard 2cv to make it a racing car?
Speaker G:Well, we have to run a club camshaft, so everybody's got to run that.
Speaker G:We're free of what we can do with cylinder heads to a certain extent, tuned exhaust, that sort of thing.
Speaker G:We're up quite a bit from a standard engine.
Speaker G:So standard engines, 28, 29 brakes, something like that.
Speaker G:And we're sort of late 40s, so 40, 48, maybe 50 brakes, something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean what sort of speeds do they get up to?
Speaker A:I mean, I ask.
Speaker A:I have driven Quite a few two CVs and they are incredibly entertaining to drive as a road car.
Speaker G:Well, you can get quite a bit of speed out of a road car if you get a good run at it, can't you?
Speaker A:Especially if you stop in third gear, which is more or less the given.
Speaker A:Get to third and stop there.
Speaker G:Make sure you hit all those orange marks on the speedo and you're well up.
Speaker G:But no, we're about 85, 85, 90 miles an hour, something like that on the longest straight.
Speaker A:And given the fact they have a very, very unique suspension system to these guys.
Speaker A:Can you do anything to the suspension on them?
Speaker G:Yeah, well a lot of people have done lots actually.
Speaker G:We're on 4,000 pound springs compared to what a normal car with.
Speaker G:So where a normal car you'd see it leaning through the corners quite considerably.
Speaker G:This doesn't.
Speaker G:We don't lean at all.
Speaker G:So it's nearly a solid suspension setup really.
Speaker A:So you don't do the usual door handle dragging in these then?
Speaker G:No, if you're dragging the door handles you're in trouble.
Speaker A:You're on your side, you're about to go on your lid.
Speaker A:I mean how much maintenance do they require?
Speaker A:I mean you look at a lot of small old cars at race and most of the drivers spend their entire life with the engine out trying to get it to go again.
Speaker G:Well, we're quite lucky we've got like ECAs and my sponsors.
Speaker G:You could nearly get anything you like from ECAS toys.
Speaker G:He's pretty good with spares apartment and with being a TCV enthusiast for so long, you go on to kind of gather a bit garage full of spares as you go along sort of thing.
Speaker G:So we're still racing on 40 year old parts?
Speaker G:Yeah, a lot of it especially gearbox or whatever.
Speaker G:But yeah, there's some good quality new parts you can buy.
Speaker G:But it's.
Speaker G:Just maintain it like you would do a road car really.
Speaker G:But just so.
Speaker A:So if you maintain it like a Frenchman or a Frenchman will maintain their 2cv, you basically just ignore it.
Speaker G:Well, yeah, I wouldn't do that really because it can be a bit.
Speaker G:I mean you get to get to know your own car and what, what things are breaking or what things are going to come Loose and that's normally the first thing you check really.
Speaker G:But as far, yeah, as far as getting the parts, we're pretty, pretty good really.
Speaker G:We don't really have to struggle with anything.
Speaker A:I mean, tires, are you on standard tires?
Speaker G:Yeah, the standard road tires.
Speaker G:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:Toyos, which are about 1 1/2 inches wide, aren't they?
Speaker G:Well, they're a little bit wider than that, but yeah, I can see, yeah, the normal road tire, what you'd have on a tcv.
Speaker G:The only thing we do is we buff the tyres down from new, so we'll take them to about 4 mil or something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker G:Just because the full tread tire just gets too hot.
Speaker A:Do you run one as a normal road car or do you have one that's a real car?
Speaker G:Yeah, yep, yep, yep.
Speaker G:Do.
Speaker G:Well, I've got a couple actually.
Speaker G:One's a bit of a state of repair and the other one's a bench test for this.
Speaker G:So put the race engine in for that and just take it up the road just to make sure it's all running like it should do.
Speaker A:I mean they, they became.
Speaker A:I mean it always comes as a surprise to some that the Renault 4 actually sold more than these because, I mean you, you ask somebody to talk about a French car in the automatic, they always say Citroen 2cv.
Speaker A:I mean they are a cult car, aren't they?
Speaker G:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker G:I mean it's one of those strange cars, isn't it, that for an everyday sort of thing you don't really see them and then you go to some meet somewhere and there's thousands of them.
Speaker G:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker G:They're all parts in the garage or they certainly love the more, more now than they used to be.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker G:You know, when I first started racing, you could pick cars up for nothing, you know, because people just, it was just a cheap form of transport and when it broke or it collapsed in the middle or something, they just junked it and that was it.
Speaker G:So you could pick something up for nothing.
Speaker G:But now they've come to a bit more of a classic status.
Speaker G:The value of them have gone up because the demand for it more.
Speaker G:So it's a good thing really.
Speaker G:But as far as us finding cheap parts, it's not probably the best, but that's the way it is sometimes.
Speaker A:How many races are in a season?
Speaker G:We do four championship weekends, sprint weekends, so we'll do two sprints like we're doing today, two qualifiers, two sprints.
Speaker G:We did a enduro at Pembry with a two hour race there and then we have the big 24 hour race at Snetterton at August bank holiday.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's the technique to racing them?
Speaker G:As little input as you could put in, really.
Speaker G:You need to try and keep your momentum up like you would if he's driving a road car, really.
Speaker G:Just try and keep it as straight as you can do.
Speaker G:Although obviously you're going around the corners.
Speaker G:But you've got to try and reduce your scrubbing of your speed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker G:You know, because that's, that's, that's what it's all about, really.
Speaker A:Do they tend to understeer?
Speaker G:No, not if you get them set up properly.
Speaker G:We've got fully adjustable shockers.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker G:So we can play around with that and obviously tire pressures and things like that, we can adjust.
Speaker G:So it's just a bit of trial and error, really.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker G:But, you know, getting it.
Speaker G:We was testing Friday, so we was here all day for testing Friday, so we've got the car set up better than it was.
Speaker G:We're not quite there where we want to be, but we're.
Speaker G:I mean, we've.
Speaker G:What have we took off?
Speaker G:We've gained four seconds a lap.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:With our testing, which is quite some going.
Speaker G:Yeah, it is, really.
Speaker G:Yeah.
Speaker G:Yeah.
Speaker G:But we're still three, four seconds off the pace.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker G:Yeah, we still got a bit to go yet.
Speaker G:But some of that's driver education as well.
Speaker A:But no, all the best.
Speaker A:It's fascinating to see that there is a second life for these little cars.
Speaker A:There's an existing life because people just love two CVs, but they're probably the most infeasible or unfeasible racing car you'll ever see.
Speaker A:But everybody just loves a 2cv.
Speaker G:Yeah.
Speaker G:It is a bit of a strange one, I suppose, for a race car.
Speaker G:I mean, I just got into it because I was an enthusiast, so it kind of, it kind of snowballed from there.
Speaker G:You know, I built a three wheeler from 2cv running gear and all that kind of thing and it just sort of snowball from there, really.
Speaker G:But for somebody who'd want to get into racing, that's fairly limited on budget.
Speaker G:I think it's probably a good place to start and there's.
Speaker G:Because, I mean, most of us are enthusiasts anyway, so if there's any problems or anything, there's somebody that knows how to fix it.
Speaker G:So there's never.
Speaker G:Not a car that goes out on the grid for some reason or another.
Speaker A:Interested to see how Andre Citroen's idea is still developing?
Speaker G:Yeah, he would never believe it would He, I don't think.
Speaker G:No, no, he didn't think he would quite believe it, but yeah, it's all good.
Speaker G:It's all good fun in it.
Speaker G:It's all good fun.
Speaker A:Thanks very much for joining me on the backseat driver and all the best.
Speaker G:No, that's all, thank you very much.
Speaker A:I'm joined at French Day here at Alton park by Sarah Fleming, Terry Robinson and Steve Dell, who all own Citroen ds, a car that I still think looks incredibly modern given they're 70 years old.
Speaker A:I'll start with Sarah.
Speaker A:Why, why do you.
Speaker A:What is it about the ds?
Speaker A:I mean, I've never owned one, but I think they're staggering looking cars.
Speaker H:Agreed to the most beautiful car ever made, in my opinion.
Speaker A:How long have you owned yours?
Speaker H:Three and a half months.
Speaker A:Is that all?
Speaker A:Is it your first one?
Speaker H:It is, yes.
Speaker A:Why so long to own one?
Speaker H:I wanted to find a solid car, which I have.
Speaker H:I've spoken to the valuer in the Citroen car club and I have a lot of history with it so I know that a lot of the important things have been done to it versus buying one that looks nice, that's only going to last on the road for a couple of years.
Speaker A:And how are you finding it?
Speaker H:Absolutely love it.
Speaker H:I live in an area that's got quite tractor ridden roads, so the road state is terrible, but you just wouldn't know in these cars it wafts along.
Speaker H:Beautiful ride.
Speaker A:Well, I mean the suspension was so good.
Speaker A:Rolls Royce used it.
Speaker H:Indeed.
Speaker H:Don't blame them.
Speaker A:Terry, which is your DS and how old is it?
Speaker I:So mine is, is an actual ID 20.
Speaker I:So it's a 2 liter, it's the.
Speaker A:Were they British built?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker I:So this car was actually built in what they call the Forest factory, which is.
Speaker I:Was based in Brussels in Belgium.
Speaker I: h market version and mine's a: Speaker A:Is there much difference between an ID and a DS?
Speaker I:There are a number of differences.
Speaker I:Whereas mine is a late model id, so it has a lot of similarities to the ds.
Speaker I:So it still has the same suspension as the ds, it has the same braking system as a ds, apart from the pedal.
Speaker I:Is a pedal rather than a mushroom.
Speaker I:And it also has power steering.
Speaker A:Is that a bonus?
Speaker I:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker I:It's just absolutely beautiful to drive.
Speaker I:I mean as Sarah said, it's so far advanced now considering it was designed 70 years ago, but if you compare it to a standard Saloon car now it drives so much better than the suspension is just, you know, it's beautiful.
Speaker A:And Steve, tell us about your DS.
Speaker J: Mine's a: Speaker J: So again it's the: Speaker J:Mine is what they call a Boite Vitesse Hydraulique, which means it's a semi automatic, hydraulically actuated, so it still has a clutch but you don't actuate it.
Speaker J:You have a wand on the steering column and with that you change gear.
Speaker J:So you just take your foot off briefly change gear, put it back on and the hydraulics go through the action of releasing and re engaging the clutch.
Speaker J:I've only had mine about seven months.
Speaker J:Like Sarah mentioned, I spent time looking for a solid one because rust are a massive money pit on these cars.
Speaker J:So you've got to get a good solid one.
Speaker J:And mine, I've done about 6,000 miles in it since I've had it.
Speaker J:It's been to France, traveled with the Citroen Car Club.
Speaker J:There's a good social side to the club, excellent support, some really good technical experts and the spare support from people like Citroen Classics.
Speaker J:Pretty much everything can be got well, which is great.
Speaker J:So it is actually potentially a daily runner for a classic car.
Speaker J:And obviously no MOT and no car tax.
Speaker A:Now the great thing is, of course they're bolt on panels, aren't they?
Speaker A:So I mean, and to jack them up is different as well into.
Speaker A:You just send them up.
Speaker A:They jack themselves up.
Speaker I:They do.
Speaker I:So you put the suspension on too high and then you have a little sort of a support that goes onto the silly and then you drop the suspension so the body stays where it is and you can remove your wheels.
Speaker I:Of course, one bolt on the rear wing removes the rear wing and you can have that taken off in about, probably about 30 seconds.
Speaker I:So you can remove the rear wheel.
Speaker A:And the other famous thing is if you're desperate you can run them on three wheels, can't you?
Speaker H:Yes, yes, I'm going to test that out over winter, I think at home.
Speaker J:I have tested in extreme circumstances.
Speaker J:I was doing, shall we say, slightly north of the speed limit in the outside lane of the M6.
Speaker J:About two months ago my right side front tyre blew and because they are tube tyres, they go down catastrophically and I had to get across the traffic, across heavy trucks and the rest of it to the hard shoulder.
Speaker J:And because it can drive on three wheels, probably saved my life.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, Andre Citroen I mean, okay, he wasn't overly involved with these as such, but I mean the innovation in these cars was tremendous, wasn't it?
Speaker I:Very much so.
Speaker I:I think when you compare it 70 years ago, you know, the, the, the normal cars that are around that time, this thing, as they said, was like a spaceship when it came out.
Speaker I:I think today that the, the shape is still very current.
Speaker I:I think it's a beautiful shape, but yeah, what must it have been like 70 years ago at the Paris Motor show when it was launched?
Speaker I:It was just incredible.
Speaker A:They had a very impressive rally career, did these guys, didn't they?
Speaker I:They did.
Speaker I:I think they won Monte Carlo three times, was it?
Speaker I:But I think one of the times they, there was a little bit of jiggery pokery and they excluded Paddy Hopkirk.
Speaker A:In his Mini, the famous lights.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:And they excluded a great friend of mine, the late, great Rosie Smith.
Speaker A:I mean the interesting thing was when the organizers excluded all the cars in front, the Citroen guys very, very gallantly refused to take their prizes cuz they said, no, we haven't won and if we're going to win because somebody's got the wrong bulbs in, then we're not doing it.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And a great friend of mine in France, regarded as one of France's top motorsport photographers, Marie Katharine Linney, when she lived in Paris, used to drive a DS and the only reason she got rid of it was because she said it was too big.
Speaker A:How do you find it?
Speaker H:There is a lot of car in front of me and I must say, sometimes because mine's left hand drive, I've got no idea where the right wing finishes because my rear view mirror is, is blocking the view of it.
Speaker H:But I stay close to things on the left because I can see it and it, it fits well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you're all three confirmed DS owners?
Speaker J:Absolutely, absolutely Custodian I like to call myself, because at some stage it will pass.
Speaker J:Somewhere else I was going to say.
Speaker A:I conclude, has somebody else got their eye on it already?
Speaker A:No, not yet.
Speaker I:I mean, one thing that amazes me only this week, my cousin who's a classic car fan, sent me a link to the Autocar poll, basically that had said it's the coolest car ever.
Speaker I:So people had voted that this is the coolest car ever.
Speaker I:If you looked at what number three was, it was what I would have thought that was the coolest car and that was a Miura, a Lamborghini Miura.
Speaker I:But the DS got number one voted by the British people to say it's the coolest car, which is, I think is the right choice list.
Speaker A:I mean, the one thing is, I mean, another car that I do like which is German is the Porsche 928.
Speaker A:And you look at a Porsche 928, now, unlike the DS, it still looks a modern car.
Speaker A:And to my mind, for a designer to achieve that, 50, 60, 70 years down the line, they knew what they were doing and I don't think any modern car will ever achieve that status.
Speaker I:No, I don't think so.
Speaker I:Now, you know, it's rumored that Bertone was, was actually a.
Speaker I:He was trained in sculptoring, so he's a sculptor.
Speaker I:And I think that shows in, in the design.
Speaker I:I mean, you know, you look at the rear indicators, the trumpets, it's, it's, it's an actual, you know, absolute beautiful piece of sculpture, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And of course there was the famous appearance in the Mentalist and I think it's probably the only TV detective series because they all love putting them in old cars where the DS made an appearance.
Speaker A:But Sarah, Terry and Steve, thanks very much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker J:Thank you very much.
Speaker I:Thank you very much.
Speaker H:Lovely talking to you.
Speaker A:Well, there you are.
Speaker A: Autos de France: Speaker A:Some racing, but a fantastic display of French cars.
Speaker A:Not all performance cars, a lot of modified cars.
Speaker A:Homage to Patrick Watts's Peugeot.
Speaker A:The DS was there a plenty since that's celebrating its 70th anniversary.
Speaker A:The Cleo's celebrating things.
Speaker A:If there was any slight disappointment, none of the clubs were there.
Speaker A:There were no stands to engage the onlookers and passersby.
Speaker A:But a lot of the people there possibly weren't race fans.
Speaker A:They were there to see the French cars and take part in and enjoy this vast collection.
Speaker A:And it's proof positive of how popular over the years French cars are in England.
Speaker A:The French love them, of course, with their own product, but the English have always enjoyed them.
Speaker A:They've always been something quirky about a French car they've always handled well, like the two CV and the GS.
Speaker A:They don't look to handle well when you watch them in action, but I can assure you they stay very, very firmly planted to the road.
Speaker A:So, yes, for next year, make sure you make a date.
Speaker A:Autos de France at Alton park well worth going to.
Speaker D:SA.
