Content warning: This episode contains discussion of losing a loved one to suicide. There are no graphic details, but we do talk about grief at length in the second half of the show. Please take care while listening.

Content creator, librarian, comedian, and mom Hayley DeRoche (they/she), the creator of the viral 'Sad Beige' phenomenon, joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for a conversation about algorithms, having boundaries as an influencer, staying true to yourself creatively, her détournement poetry, and why they stay on social media despite the downsides.

In the second half of the show, we dive into Hayley's experiences fostering and later adopting a child, navigating transracial adoption, parenting through grief, and how freeing it is when your kids get old enough that you don't have to watch their every move. We also talk about the excitement of not knowing who your kid will become and the joy of watching them grow up.

Links:

• Hayley's book, Dress Your Baby in Sage and Taupe: A Handbook for the Sad Beige Parent, is out now! Grab a copy at your favorite indie bookstore or request it from your local library.
• For more of Hayley's work, follow them on TikTok or Instagram, or check out her website.
• Emily's website & Instagram.

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Mentioned in this episode:

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They really love Jar Jar Binks from Star Wars. They love that guy.

What?

I don't. I don't know.

I didn't know anyone loved that guy.

They do. They're his biggest fans.

Wow. That was shocking.

Cry for help. Send help. SOS.

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood, and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings, and keeping it real about how we feel.

We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney Lynch, and today I'm excited to be chatting with Haley DeRoche. Hayley's a public librarian, content creator, comedian, and poet. You probably know them as Sad Beige, and I'm guessing you've seen her viral videos before. I've enjoyed their hilarious content for years. Her new book, Dress Your Baby in Sage and Taupe: A Handbook for the Sad Beige Parent, is such a gem. It's full of all kinds of funny lines, fun surprises, and really comforting messages for new parents. It's out this April, and Hayley's also a parent of two kids.

Really looking forward to our conversation. Welcome to the show, Hayley.

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

This should be a really fun chat. I want to start with your content creation journey. I'm curious about what was going on in your mind when you first decided to film and post a video.

But the thing that really pushed it over the edge for me was the marketing imagery with all of these children holding them and just like kind of staring at them, like, very, very thoughtful.

And I think the overall impression that they wanted people to feel was like, oh, your child will be like a sagely wise old crone with the wisdom that they get from this toy. But the way that it translated was more just sad.

Being a comedian, I just kind of off the cuff made a joke about, like, well, who would be the worst possible spokesperson for a children's brand? And Werner Herzog, the nihilist German filmmaker, a famous grizzly man came to mind and the rest was kind of history.

It kind of catapulted my My comedy career from. From just writing comedy to performing it, and it's been a very wild ride.

That's amazing. Was it TikTok you went to first to start posting or Instagram?

It was TikTok at that point, yeah. And I later just, like, switched over to Instagram, and then it went viral again a year later after it had already gone viral on TikTok, which was very funny.

a little late to the party on Instagram.

Okay. Most people are. no offense though.

Instagram just tends to have a lag.

Right. Do you have any strong feelings about either platform these days? Do you have a preference of one or the other?

They're both really different. You know, the community that I formed on TikTok, you kind of start out on TikTok and you just kind of get paired with other creators at the same time, so you just wind up seeing each other a lot.

So I have very different, like, friendships and communities on TikTok versus Instagram, where I think it's sometimes harder to follow people consistently because you either see them in your feed or you don't. And so I like them both, but they're both just kind of fundamentally different platforms for me, so I. I just kind of dabble in both.

Are you finding any major differences with TikTok since the Oracle purchase, or is it seeming relatively the same to you?

Yes, I am definitely seeing a difference there, just in terms of traffic and also kind of figuring out what I can and cannot talk about, which kind of goes into the poetry that I've been creating over there recently. I think it's still pretty early right now when we're recording this.

It's March, and that takeover happened in January, so I think it's still kind of ironing itself out a little bit. I don't know what it's going to look like long term, but I'm sticking around for now. We'll see how it goes.

People are so quick to jump to conclusions, like, the platform is trash now and they are censoring everything. And I'm like, I'm not sure exactly what is going on, but we're gonna observe and try to find out.

And I think, like, a lot of social media kind of has that ebb and flow, so you don't want to necessarily immediately prescribe like, a dip to that when it can also just kind of course correct itself in a couple weeks.

Right. Did you have any kind of social media background before you started making content for yourself?

Did you have any hopes for it when you first started putting videos out there, or were you just kind of just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks?

100% spaghetti.

And look where you are now with a book deal and all kinds of followers and viral videos.

And so having that kind of background and then switching to something that's very like face forward, camera forward has been a real like, interesting turn for me. But it is, it is definitely making my life interesting all the time.

Do you mind, like being face forward on camera like you do for videos? Is that like something you push yourself out of your comfort zone to do?

I've become more comfortable with it as time goes on, but I think, like, it's almost a double edged sword because as you become more adept at making that content, I think that you come to be much more critical of yourself when making it. I almost think it's easier if you just throw something at the wall without caring. And that's how a lot of people get started.

But then as you continue to create stuff, you, you do have to care a little bit more and you want to put out content that's good. And to make something good, you do unfortunately have to care. And so it's definitely kind of pushed me to hone my editing skills and figure out what works with filming and what doesn't and all of that, which are good skills to have.

definitely. It's funny how with the algorithm, sometimes it's the stuff that you try the least hard with that ends up really taking off.

Right?

It's strange.

The algorithm is. Yes, it's very strange. And it will just pick something up. And I think for a lot of people it's kind of a challenge of like, is Is this what I want to devote myself to or not? And I think I got fairly lucky in that I was able to turn one joke into many, many, many jokes, for better or worse.

Have you gotten tired of that, like, Sad Beige brand of stuff at all, or are you just pretty content with it?

As an artist, as someone who's always been, you know, writing comedy, creating stuff, if not on TikTok, I'm always interested in seeing what else I can do. So I don't really want to ever kind of pigeonhole myself into one joke.

And, like, I'm very happy with Sad Beige, and I'm really excited about this book that's coming out, which will be out when this podcast airs. You should go check it out. But I think for me, like, I always want to make sure that I'm not limiting myself by one joke partially. That's.

That's just continuing my creative practice and looking out and seeing what else calls to me. But. But I'm very happy with it, and I'm excited to see where else it takes me.

As you're sharing more of, like, your poetry and stuff like that, have your followers been pretty happy to come along for the ride, or are you noticing different responses to the different types of things?

I think people are really open to it, and I think when you cultivate kind of a good audience, then they're willing to kind of come with you on new journeys. And I think part of that just goes back to creating quality content and engaging with people where they're at.

And so I think for me, I've been able to engage with people about Sad Beige, but also kind of talk about the stuff that kind of bubbles up behind it.

I mean, a lot of Sad Beige is talking not only about, on the surface, making fun of stuff, but it's also talking about, like, algorithms and marketing, and that kind of ties into the poetry that I write now, too. So I think if you can take people on a journey, they're more likely to stick with you for more of them.

That totally makes sense. Are you seeing any of those followers that have come along on the ride starting to have some parasocial relationships with you? Have you witnessed that?

A little bit. There's definitely been times when people are like, you know, I think we should be best friends. And, like, I'm. It's always a little bit difficult because, like, on one hand, like, I'd love to be friends with everybody. That'd be amazing. But I also know that, like, the me that people are kind of projecting that idea about Is is not the full me.

And there's stuff about me that people won't like because I'm a full person. I think in the same way that like, there are comedians and stuff that like, I look at and I'm like, wow, I wish we could be friends.

I'm like, okay, but you're seeing the public image of that person. You're not really seeing them as a full person.

And so just kind of reminding myself of that too, because I think it would be really easy to be like, oh, wow, these people all love me. So I'm just gonna like, give them every piece of me that they ask for. And so I try not to do that too much. I do try to kind of create some, some boundaries there.

How do you navigate deciding how much of yourself to share versus hold back?

I think part of it is because I do work a public facing job, I manage a public library. And so people can find me. And so I do have to be kind of careful about that and also just acknowledge the fact that like, people come in and they kind of look at me funny and I know instantly what's going on because they're trying to place where they know me from and I don't know them at all. And so I can pretty much figure out and they'll look at me and they'll be like, do I know you from? They're like, where do I know you?

And I'm like, are you on the internet? But just knowing that that happens really consistently, like several times a week at my job, like in the grocery store or like in the bagel shop.

The other day I was actually having a bit of a, like a mental panic attack about something unrelated to bagels. But like in mid, mid conversation of like ordering, someone's just like, gives that beige. And so it's like you kind of have to remember at all times that, you know, the panopticon of society is attuned to my face.

It's so weird.

It is. So, you know, every time that happens though, especially when I'm with my kids, I'm always really grateful that people don't recognize my kids because it's just not a part of my life that I've chosen to share or make them content. And every time that happens, I'm like, yes, that was the right call because people are focused on me and I'm an adult and I can handle that.

And I do like people and I like people saying hi. I think it's very funny. But I'm also like always very very aware of, like, when I'm with my kids and like, good job self that they don't know them because I think that that would be a lot weirder. So that's, that's kind of how I view it.

It's just like, okay, give people enough that like, if they come into the library and they see me in person, I'm not going to be like, oh, no, let me like, hide.

Do your kids know much about your content creation or are they like, blissfully unaware?

They have the general idea. My daughter's in middle school now and my son is in second grade. And so they've got like kind of a basic idea of what I do.

My son does not believe that I am an influencer. He views this with great disdain. Like, I could not possibly be like the, the gaming people that he likes. And I'm like, well, I'm not. I'm much cooler.

My mom can't be cool on the internet. No way!

Ah, alas, my harshest critic.

So I think a lot of people assume content creators and influencers are just making boatloads of money off of putting themselves online. Has that been the case for you all? Or what is like, the financial side of content creation?

Like, my partner and I are both full time public librarians and that has not changed. I do make money from my platform and that has ebbed and flowed throughout time. You know, there was a time when on TikTok, your pay per view essentially was really high and if you had something get a million views, you were going to get like a thousand dollars. Now that is maybe a hundred. So obviously that, that varies from creator to creator.

Everyone's rate per view is different, but it has gone down pretty drastically for most creators that I know. And so luckily for me, I've never particularly, like relied on that because I do view it as something that, like, it can just disappear in an instant. You know, you can get banned for nothing. People could just, you know, decide that they don't like you anymore and stop watching you.

And so it's not something that I ever wanted to just like, hitch my wagon to. Financially. Most of what I make these days is through selling T shirts that I make, which is like, great and fine. And I get to, I, you know, donate 20% of a lot of those to, like, different charities. And so I feel like I'm trying to do something good with that as well. I think overall it's, it's not a big part of my life financially.

It's helpful, it's nice to get like a little boost sometimes. But it's. It's definitely just. It's just one very small piece of my life and I'm definitely keeping my full time government job.

I've been hearing from some that Facebook is where it's at these days with the money, which I find hard to believe. But have you experimented with that at all?

I am forcing myself. Don't let Meta hear me say that. I am forcing myself to do more Facebook and it is growing really quickly. I haven't really seen a financial benefit to that yet. Maybe that will change. It does unfortunately require me being on Facebook, which I loathe, just because every time I log on, I'm on like a page profile rather than a personal one. So it just kind of throws like the most slop of slop at me because it doesn't know what to do with me as a person.

So I just kind of have to ignore the for you page entirely because it fills me with rage and angst and I just like block every account that it tries to throw at me, which is probably not helping my cause over there, now that I think about it.

But so much concerning slop out there. It's really like alarming when you're scrolling through. If it's not.

It's a lot of AI stuff, but it's also just like content that pretends to be real stories about real people. And then like in the tiny fine print it'll be like, this isn't a real story. And it's like, what are we doing?

The rage bait-y? Just bring engagement stuff.

Yeah, exactly. Ugh, it's bummertown over there.

I mean, on a superficial level, it's fun. I mean, I have a book coming out that would never exist if I hadn't stuck with social media and made these jokes. And now I'm doing a lot of poetry and who knows what will come from that. I mean, if I end up publishing like a poetry book in a year or so, like, how amazing would that be?

And that would also be because I'm sharing my work creatively online. And I mean, particularly as a mom, it's very hard to carve out time to talk with other creative people. And so like posting this poetry and talking to other poets in my DMs and stuff is like, very fulfilling to me as a writer. And so I think like, when you cut all of that out, it can be really beneficial for you, but for me personally, I just find that it's.

It's more helpful to me than not, and everyone's a little bit different, but for me, I just. I value that connection and I don't want to lose it.

Yeah, there can be really nice conversations through social media and communities. You can find. Tell me a little more about the poetry. I'm curious how you got started with writing that. How do you pronounce that word? Détournement?

Détournement is how I've heard it. So that's how I've decided to say it, because that's how I've heard it said before, so I hope I'm right. It's French, so it sounds right.

It kind of came to me a number of different ways. I'm a big fan of Bo Burnham's Inside. And there's actually. I don't think it's part of Inside, now that I think about it.

It's actually a piece that he did way before Inside, but it's this piece that's to turn to mob poetry, basically, of people acting like they know who he is as a person and trying to get close to him. And as you whittle it down from everything that these different characters are saying, it kind of comes through as like, they don't know him at all. And that's kind of a form of Détournement poetry. And I found it really interesting on an audio level.

And so as I was reading all of these different, like, buzzfeed kind of click headlines at the same time as really awful things happening in the news, like, the juxtaposition of those two things felt really alarming to me. And then so I thought, like, that would be an interesting art piece.

But then the other thing that kind of clicked in place for me was fighting algorithms on TikTok, kind of going back to, like, what you can and can't say to get through those censorship blocks. What I found was that if I talked about, like, the fluffiest, dumbest things, that that's what the algorithm wanted to feed people, obviously.

So, like, if I talked about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, if I talked about, you know, whatever was in the news, if I talked about, like, you know, these six stars and what they wore to the, you know, the Oscars, that that was going to get through, and that wasn't what I wanted to talk about at all. But if I was able to somehow braid that together with what I really wanted to say, then I could push through.

And so then it just became a question of, like, well, how do you do that? And I don't want to just create a fake video and then halfway through be like, okay, are you still watching now? Let's watch this. Because I don't think that that's genuine, and I don't think you're going to keep an audience that way because then they just don't trust the process. Like, they just see you and they're like, this is going to fake me out.

But if you create something that's really true art, that hooks people and makes them pay attention and also kind of provides them a little bit of a puzzle. Because as you slowly watch the poem that I'm creating, it whittles itself down into the real message, which is the opposite of the one that I start with. So, you know, I'm talking about, like, Taylor Swift and all this, and at the end it's like, you know, what. What are we doing?

Like, where people are starving, that sort of thing. And so just being able to turn it on its head for me has just been really creatively interesting and honest, I would say. And I don't see a lot of other people taking it in that direction. So it kind of created this very unique piece of art, I guess, if that makes sense.

It's very, very layered because I'm using the algorithmic words to talk about the algorithm and then turn it around and critique the algorithm.

Sounds really challenging to write, but they're perfect for, like, the time we are living in. And so many times I've been watching one of them, like, where is this going? Where is this going? Like, feeling the dread. And then by the end, you are, like, chilled to the bone and, like, it really hits so hard. They're fantastic, so I hope you keep sharing them.

Can you tell us a little bit more about dress your baby in sage and taupe and how that came to be in the world?

Well, I mean, I've been doing the sad beige jokes, and Craftsman, which is an imprint of Norton, approached me and were like, you know, we would like to do a sad beige baby book. So I kind of went to the drawing board, thought about, like, what would that like, it sounds fun, but what would that actually look like?

Because a lot of my content with the sad beige stuff is really critiquing real marketing ads. And, you know, thank goodness these companies were good sports about it.

But, you know, what do you do with that and how do you turn that into a book that people want to read?

And so I thought about it, and I was like, well, let me think about my parenting and, like, what's been hard for me, but also, like, what's been joyful?

Because that's the other thing is that I really wanted this book to be joyful, because so much of my critique of Sad beige is obviously that it is not joyful to me, at least.

And so just thinking about that and what I finally kind of came up with, and thankfully, thankfully, they loved it, was this idea of starting out talking about, like, babyhood and then, you know, toddlerhood, and then, you know, as your kid grows, kind of pushing them off into the world as themselves.

Because I think a lot of the critique of sad beige, both for myself and other people, has been that this is a very curated aesthetic look for children, and that's very led by the parent. And I think it's really easy to think, well, I can just make every choice for my child, and they will turn into the perfect child that I envision.

You know, they're going to have the same taste as me, they're going to eat the same food as me, they're going to like the same art, they're going to like the same music. You know, they're going to study this in school, and of course they're going to be perfect.

But as your kid grows, they start to become their own people, and those people can sometimes be very different from us.

And I think I wanted the book to kind of be this transition, this change from point A to point B of deciding who your child is going to be, and then by the end, embracing who your child really is. And looking at this finished book, it's just like, every time I look at it, I'm so happy because it really has achieved that.

And I just remember, like, what the editor emailed me back after I sent, like, the first big draft of it, and she was just like, this is a gem, like a jewel of a book. And I was just like, that. That's what you want to hear. Because, you know, I don't want to put out a book that's just my Internet joke in book form.

I wanted to do something that was real and nice and, like, lovely, and that's like, a book that people would actually want to read. Not just a book that, like, oh, ha ha. I remember that Internet joke. Something that kind of lives beyond the joke. And I think it does.

I think that's what I loved most about it. I was fully expecting just, like, riffing on the sad beige joke for 100-200 pages and then it's over. And then it was not that at all.

Thank you.

I'm excited to get my hands on a physical copy, too, and see the joyful rainbows at the end.

I was so happy that they loved that because, like, I pitched it and I was like, they're not gonna, like, it's gonna be. It's gonna cost too much in ink or something. And they were just like, no, this is perfect. And, like, opening it up for the first time, I was just like, oh, my god. It's so perfect.

Did it change a lot in the revision process? Like, what kind of edits did it go through?

I mean, it definitely started out with a lot more pieces, and that's just kind of what I do as a writer is I like to write a lot of options and then knowing that some of these are just going to get, like, immediately edited out or, like, significantly changed.

So once I kind of threw everything together, there were three or four essays that we ended up cutting just to kind of whittle it down to the ones that I thought were, like, the meatiest, most important ones to kind of. You want to polish it, essentially. So it definitely went through some polishing, but the core soul of the book has really stayed the same.

And just the way that it kind of brings the reader on this journey that's like, funny, but also kind of poking fun at some things, but not in a mean way.

And that was the other thing that I always kind of strove for is like, okay, I've perhaps been a little bit mean sometimes, but, you know, I didn't want the book to be that because who wants that?

I appreciated that, too. I was not expecting it to be mean spirited, but I was, you know, it's so easy to make fun of some things with parenting sometimes, and that's kind of the last thing some parents need.

Yes.

How did you, like, hone your humor in your writing? Because I feel like it's really hard to write funny and people don't realize that.

Thank you. I mean, I definitely, you know, workshop things with other fellow writers. Jenny Eggerty, who wrote the Frog and Toad Are Doing Their Best. She's one of my writer friends and she helped edit one of the pieces in the book, actually. But just finding people who can be beta readers for you and bounce things off and get honest feedback is really important for any writer.

We were living in a very rural area. So that's kind of what I had. Me and the bots had a really great time.

And so just cutting my teeth there and then, you know, obviously being chronically online for two decades doesn't hurt. And then obviously I've written for McSweeney's and things of that nature, so I've just kind of, you know, you just. You work on your craft and you can't really get too comfortable.

It seems like you always have to be adapting and evolving to keep your humor fresh. You can't just do the same thing forever.

I saw you had a picture book that was kind of in the works for a little while and then didn't really work out. Do you think you'll write a picture book again in the future? Is that still a goal?

Oh, gosh, I would love to. You always hope for a second chance at something.

And that opportunity just kind of came at a point in my life where the gears were not turning, and I was just dealing with a lot of personal grief and some things that had happened in my life. And so I think everyone has their creative white whale. And to have the white whale arrive at your door and then biff.

It is in one sense, kind of a horrible feeling. Especially when all of your friends are like, you got this. This is great. And then you're just like, it actually didn't work.

But at the same time, it's like, okay, you. Everyone kind of takes their. Takes their bruises.

So you kind of either have to pick up and just keep going, or you give up and you're just like, this just isn't for me. And I can't take this rejection. And sorry. I'm at the library and they're telling me that at 8pm Again,

7:30. And the Petersburg Public Library will close probably at 8.

These are the perfect alerts for a podcast. I'm hugely in fan of this. I was giving Emily hand signals. This is way more. This is way more accurate than I was.

Okay, I think they've hung up anyway. I think. What was I saying? So, you know, you get an opportunity, sometimes you might just diff it.

And I think it's just so important to pick yourself up and keep going and not give in to the despair that Comes with that. Like, despair a little bit. But at some point, you have to stop despairing and keep writing.

And eventually someone may show up in your inbox being like, hey, do you want to do this book? And maybe then you'll be ready. So if it comes back around again, that would be amazing, but it's okay.

It would have been so easy to just sit there and feel sorry for yourself. So I'm glad you picked back up and kept going. You should give yourself credit for that, because it's not the easiest thing to do.

You gotta just take it on the chin. I think all of comedy is really just taking a lot on the chin, for sure.

Is there anything creatively on the horizon for you that you're excited about next?

Ooh, that's a good question. I think right now I'm really focusing on the poetry stuff, having, you know, I had minored in creative writing in college, so it's just something that's, like, kind of going back to my roots a little bit. And so I'm really excited to just see where that takes me.

I've started writing a poem every night before bed, more or less, and it's just turned into this, like, really nice creative practice for me.

And it's kind of stretching my brain in ways that I haven't in a long time, because I think when you start to create so much like, TikTok and Instagram content, a lot of that is not something that you're necessarily playing around, like, with words, necessarily. Like, you're not thinking about the sound of this word or the sound of that word or the way that word looks on the page.

And so it just kind of lets me go back to something that I think I was good at and would like to get better at again. And it's really nice.

So that's kind of where my brain is at right now, which is kind of funny to be doing so much sad beige now at the time when, like, my creative stuff is in a very different place. But I also think that there's this ribbon of me that kind of runs through all of it.

You know, I'm always talking about algorithms and how they impact our lives, whether it's as a parent or as a consumer of, you know, Internet stuff. So I think if you like one piece of my content, then you'll like the other, which I think is a good thing.

That's such an amazing creative practice to get into of one poem a day. Like, it takes some serious dedication. I don't know if I. I don't think I could do it in this era of my life, but maybe, maybe someday.

It's definitely like, me, you know, in bed with my notes app. Like, it's definitely not me, like, you know, lighting a candle, like, you know, dipping the quill in the ink.

So let's talk a little bit about your life as a parent. I'm curious to learn a little bit more about your kids, like, what they're into these days. You said second grade and middle school, was it?

second and sixth? They were just finishing up. Yeah, the time flies. Everyone says it will, and you don't believe them because especially when they're little, it does not feel like that. It feels like every day will be the same forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. And it will never stop until it does.

And then you find yourself looking at your phone, and you're like, oh, look at this cute picture of you as a toddler. And it's like, how many years ago was that now? Like, how did this happen?

Yeah. What kind of stuff are they into these days?

My daughter is super into Wings of Fire. We are a big Wings of Fire family. Same with, like, Phoebe and her unicorn. Being a librarian, I am kind of the mule for bringing home books every day, and so she's very into that stuff. And then my son is very into goosebumps and, like, super spoopy stuff.

And so they have very, very different tastes, but they are both very into Pokemon. There's just Pokemon cards littering my floor. It's like you. You try to walk someplace and something's stuck to your foot, and it's a. It's a Pikachu.

My son's very into Bulbasaur. He'll be two this summer.

Oh, yeah. And Bulbasaur is great.

Yes. He had a little, tiny Bulbasaur at home, and then Aldi had Pokemon Stuffy, so I brought him a Bulbasaur stuffy, and when we got it out for him, he just looked like. Like amazed that it existed. Like a bigger, softer Bulbasaur. It was so cute.

So I hear a lot of the, like, negative. Just you waits of, like, oh, just you wait. You think it's hard now? Blah, blah, blah. Could you give me some positive? Just you waits for when my son's a little older.

Just you wait. One day, your kids are going to go play outside, and you will not have to stand there watching every second of them. It's glorious. They go outside. The neighbor kids walk over from down the street, and they all just play. And I only get pulled in to solve an argument maybe once or twice.

It really is this new phase of, like, kids are just in my house, they're not all mine, but like, it's, it's really lovely to just be like, all right, who's staying for dinner? Like, who wants nuggets?

Like, being like the, you know, the street mob is really lovely and it is this kind of new phase and being able to just kind of sit at the park and just watch them go and not necessarily, like, follow every step or like, try to orchestrate every bit of their social lives is really freeing. And like, it's also just lovely to kind of watch them grow and figure that stuff out for themselves too. It really does get easier. Dinner time, maybe not so much.

we've got some wonderful neighbors. I'm excited for my son to like, be able to play with them more as he's older.

And there's like a nine year old a street away who's just like the coolest kid and she's taken all the other kids under her wing and she loves dogs and stuff. So it'll be fun to watch him, like, integrate with the grow more. It's really cool.

It's really nice. I think just, just watching them become themselves and not needing me to necessarily hold their hand all the time is, Is really just. It's just fun.

I'm in the, like, I want to be independent, but I have no skills to do that kind of phase right now. So...

that's a tough one.

Yeah. Few more years. I'm curious...

You'll be fine. You're going to make it.

With your daughter in middle school, is she like wanting a phone or any kind of social media? Like, what is the vibe like there?

Surprisingly, no. I mean, of course, now that I've said that, that'll probably change, but she has just one of those, like, phones where she can text people that we've added. She can make calls and it has chess. That's the only game it has. It has no Internet browser and she has not wanted anything else.

I have no reason to push it. My son, of course, has begged for an iPad and like an iPhone. And I'm just like, no, you don't need this second. I'm not buying it. No.

But it's been nice that, like, that just hasn't come up for her. And I think it's just a personality thing. Like, she's just very happy to text her friends and that's all that they need. So I'm like, that's great. We don't need to add anything else to it.

That has to be a bit of a relief. So I'm curious. You have, I've seen you mention in some writing, I know you don't talk about it as much, but you fostered and then adopted. So can you talk a little bit about what it was like to foster and what you learned about the system?

That's actually how I started out on TikTok. I was talking about the foster care system and just the ways in which it is broken just from like an administrative like policy standpoint.

And things have definitely changed since then. I kind of shifted my focus away from that once our son's case moved into adoption.

Just because I was like, well, it's one thing to talk about policy writ large. That's not really personal, but it's much harder to talk about adoption without it kind of veering into like really personal stuff.

So that's kind of when I made that shift. But just like, from, from that standpoint, like so many people go into foster care thinking that it's like, oh well, this is just free adoption.

And like that is just not the purpose of foster care. Foster care's purpose is reunification and the foster parents job is to support that.

Like as long as that is the goal of the plan, then everyone has to be on that same page.

And so it really is just this practice of kind of releasing your own desires and emotions and just fully focusing on like the work that needs to be done.

And so I think just being able to connect in that way and learn from them as a foster parent and then as an adoptive parent has really given me direction even now that I'm not doing that type of content anymore to like really focus on like my son's privacy and like making sure that we were always focused on what was right, not necessarily what like my heart might have wanted. And like it's really freeing to just suddenly realize that like you can just kind of put yourself on pause.

Like you don't have to be the main character in everything that you do. And sometimes you're just going to be a supporting character and like that is your job.

And so I think that that was just a really good experience and like you can be a foster parent without wanting to adopt.

In fact, that's what they need is people who have that capability to fully support a child and love them as if they were their own and then, you know, let them go.

I can imagine a lot of people don't have the emotional maturity it takes to do that, and that can cause a lot of problems. But it sounds like I'm so glad you listened to the content from people who are going through that themselves because you can learn so much from it.

I think a lot of the content from like adopted folks changed my views just on TikTok in that era too. My brother is adopted and I learned so much from listening to adopted people's stories online.

And like, just carrying that with me now as my son grows is like, that's so helpful to just kind of fall back on stuff that I learned even years ago. And like, it's wonderful that like policies are changing and the system continues to change, hopefully for the better.

But yeah, I mean, it's definitely a system that is still really fraught. And I think part of that is just messaging.

A lot of people just don't fundamentally understand it and they just think that like, oh well, like you know, calling CPS will solve everything and like sometimes it's out of the frying pan into the fire. Like it's, it's very complicated.

I think people have no idea how complex all the systems and parts are. Yeah, it's a lot. I'm curious about. Your son is not white, right? And you guys are obviously white, so how do you handle like race stuff that comes up?

My brother is not white and my family, it was like the 90s. It was just like we don't see color and there would be like weird jokes like, oh, if we're at the airport, people think we're kidnapping him. Hahaha.

And it's like, why, why are you saying that?! Like, so how have you handled racial stuff?

I try to listen to Black people first and foremost. I've read a lot of books obviously, and we try to raise our kids to be anti racists, obviously. Working on that myself is a forever project as a white person.

We try to make sure that he's got people who look like him in his world, even if we don't want him to be both a minority in our home and then outside of our home as well, and all of his social situations. So just being cognizant of that and being aware that we also draw a certain amount of attention as a family, people just do a double take sometimes.

So they may not realize that he's my son. And like, constantly affirming to him that, like, he is a full member of our family and like, also communicating that to the world is really important and also just kind of giving him opportunities mean he's in therapy. We are also in therapy.

I think it's really important as adoptive parents, whether you're transracial or not, to have those conversations and have people you can talk it through. Because I think going it alone is. It's much too difficult and complex to really do that.

So you really do have to find people that you trust and find resources and just understand that, like, when your son, you know, goes, like when he goes out into the world without me, that, like, his experience is being a Black boy.

And so, like, we have had the talk and we will continue to have the talk and understanding that, like, I can't protect him from everything and my experience in the world and my daughter's experience in the world will never be his experience in the world.

And making sure that our whole family is aligned so that we are never putting him in a position where, like, he is unsafe because of a choice we made, stuff like that. Whereas, like, you really do have to just think through a lot.

Sounds like you have a lot of good support in place. I'm glad you've been able to find that. Has your sense of. Has he had many questions or much curiosity about being adopted so far or not really?

Yes and no. It kind of depends on the topic. There are some things he has more questions about than others. And I'm sure that, you know, as any child who's been adopted ages, those change. Those questions kind of shift and change.

I wanted to touch on grief a little bit because you mentioned that earlier in the first half. So what was it like parenting through grief? I know you lost your brother a few years ago and I can't imagine, like the fog of grief having to just show up for your kids every day. So how did you get through that time?

I mean, it really is just kind of a day by day thing. I mean, you have to get out of bed, you have to go to your job, you have to cook dinner for your children, you have to read to them at night.

And like, I think with a lot of things you can do a really hard thing and if you do it often enough, it kind of becomes a little bit more rote and you just have to keep doing it and keep getting out of bed and keep reading the books.

And eventually the grief kind of it's there, but it takes a different shape and it becomes a little bit smaller, and you can kind of set it on a shelf kind of in your mind, and eventually it's not like the front thing on the shelf. Eventually it's kind of a little bit further back, and it's still there.

But, I mean, it is just very hard when you have young children to go through something like that. And, I mean, there's just no way out.

So I feel very lucky in the sense that, like, I'm.

I have a really strong support system and, you know, leaning on friends and accepting help, like, knowing when you're just in it that it's okay to just fall apart a little bit, and that, yes, you do have to pick yourself back up, but it's just hard. I mean, some things just suck.

And, like, I think if I could go back in time, I would probably tell myself, like, hey, just say no to the picture book right now. And, like, okay, like, that's a lesson now.

Like, sometimes you can't take on everything that, like, something's gonna come along at the wrong time, and you just have to set it aside and not. Not beat yourself up about it. Just is what it is. And that comes after years of working through it.

Right. Was that the first time you had to explain death to your kids?

No, we'd had other deaths before, but that was definitely, like, the first, like, jarring, unexpected one. They were also younger at that point, so it was. It was a different conversation that I might have if it was, like, happening now.

My brother took his own life. And so that's a hard conversation to have with children who really don't understand.

And particularly when, like, they're coming into contact with other people from the family who are also grieving, you really do have to kind of figure out how to tread and how to thread the needle in a way that, like, they understand but also isn't going to further confuse them or give them, you know, things that they might say that they don't really understand what they're saying. That makes sense. So, yeah, that's so difficult. It's a work in progress.

You know, there is one nice thing about, you know, being a former foster parent and now an adoptive parent is, like, you. You do Kind of become pretty adept at having difficult conversations and really grounding them in like age appropriate ways.

So it's, it's nice in a way, I guess that I kind of had a little bit of experience doing that, so I was able to sort of figure out how to talk about it. I mean, it's hard.

One thing I've thought about a lot is my mom is dead and I don't know how to like tell my son that someday, like since he's only almost two, like I have a stepmom and I'll be like, that's not my real mom. Just so you know, like, he probably thinks that is my biological mother and I don't know like how or when I will explain that to him.

But something that I like mull over from time to time.

And it's okay to not know how you're going to talk about something. There's stuff with our family that I'm just like, I know I'm going to have to talk about it and I just have to keep thinking about how and it's okay not to go.

That's good advice. Thank you.

for something totally different and lighter. I know you spend a lot of time on the internet, so is there any like parenting content that you've found to be like, surprisingly helpful? Like a cool hack or craft or anything or just like a really silly one that you tried and it was terrible?

I know everyone loves a good family dance party. My confession is I hate them. I grew up very conservative, very evangelical. I do not have a rhythmic bone in my body.

And so my kids want to dance and everything and I'm just like, I don't know how to do this. So love that it works for people personally.

Do your kids enjoy it though?

Oh yeah, they love it.

My son is like quite the dancer. We had these little Disney figurines up at Christmas. It's like a five piece band and they all play together and you take them down one by one and like dance all around the kitchen with them. So fun.

What kind of things are bringing you joy as a mom lately?

Oh gosh. It's so funny having a slightly older kid now because I do like, I like sitting with them and watching their toddler videos together. And it's so funny because I get to see the same behavior just like in a bigger kid and it's, it's genuinely very funny. Oh gosh. Going to the library and just like watching them just like go ham is, is so lovely. And just seeing them be themselves.

Like my daughter's super into theater right now. And just watching her blossom and find her voice is, oh, it's so wonderful. And, like, seeing my son, like, learn how to, like, make friends and, like, just opening up with other kids his age is just like.

Like, he comes home and tells me about, like, what he did with his friends and, like, how amazing is that for a kid who's really struggled in some of those areas? Like, oh, it's so great.

That's really cool. I'm excited for my son to start talking more. Like, he still doesn't have very many words, so the idea of him coming home and telling me about something is just exciting.

My daughter did not talk, like, you know, at her when she was supposed to. And then one day she figured it out, and she has not stopped since. I have the yapper of all yappers.

It's kind of what I'm expecting. He's just gonna explode at some point.

He's still telling a story. And, like, then she'll, you know, a little while will pass and she'll tell the same story again. And I'm like, you know, you already said that. She's like, yeah, but I ran out of things to say.

Oh my God, that's too funny right now. Some of his only words are bulba for bulbasaur. And. And lately he's learned penis, so.

Oh, nice.

Really helpful.

He's got the two essentials, I guess.

So what are you looking forward to about, like, future chapters of motherhood? Is there anything in particular about older ages you're looking forward to?

I don't know who my kids are going to be, and I'm just really excited to find out, honestly, because, like, what suspense.

I love that. I always hear, like, people excited for a father daughter dance or, like, walking her down the aisle on her wedding day. And I'm like, is that what people are dreaming of? Like, those things don't even cross my mind.

No, like, I don't. Like, that's. That's so far away and, like, that's just one piece of their story. Like, I'm so excited for, like, everything. Like, who are they going to be? What are. What do they want to study? What interests them? Like, like, what do they want to do?

Like, I'm so excited for all of those things because, like, I don't know and, like, I want to find out and I want to, like, see all of it. And, like, what a privilege to watch somebody grow up. That's amazing. So I'm just kind of along for the ride. And I'm excited.

Is there anything super unexpected about them right now that you never would have guessed they would turn out like that so far?

They really love Jar Jar Binks from Star Wars. They love that guy.

What?

I don't know.

I didn't know anyone loved that guy.

They do. They're his biggest fans.

Wow. That was shocking.

Cry for help.

I don't even know what else to say. I guess that's gotta be the end.

Yeah, that's gotta be the end. Send help. SOS. Misa need big help.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat. Oh, wait, one more thing. We should talk about libraries. Is there anything you would recommend people do to, like, support their local library? How can we help libraries right now?

If you don't have a card, get a card. Just having library cards, like those statistics really matter. Check out books. Check out a lot of books. Even if you don't read them, check them out. If you're. If you're mildly interested, check it out. And if your kids don't have cards, get them each a card. Boost your amount of Libby Holds that way.

So, like, win, win. Yes.

I have 55 items checked out right now, and we got a receipt the other day that was taller than my 6 foot 2 husband. So we're doing our best over here.

Ask your library to ask your library to buy my book! Because you can ask your library to buy books that you want and you are a citizen and you get to do that. And often they will say, yes.

I did that on Friday! And they did say they would order a copy. So that was very exciting.

I think they're about to kick me out of this library. Yeah.

Well, that is perfect timing. Thank you again for coming on the show, Hayley. This was really fun.

Thank you so much. This was really fun.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.

What is a childhood? A child lives with the lie of freedom.

Their existence is defined by dominance from parents that decide that procreating is a valid choice in a violent and uncaring world.