Following on from last episode, in this one we share Pam's 'Reverse Engineer Your Career' approach and talk about how to reflect on what you want from your career in the future

Key points from this episode

• Working backwards to go forwards - how long have you got left to get to where you want in your career?
• What to do if you're not sure what your ultimate career goal is
• Why you might not need to make as many moves as you think
• How to decide on the timing if you do want to move roles

Useful Links

Connect with Pam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamelalangancoaching/

Connect with Jacqui on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacqui-jagger/

Follow the Catalyst Careers LinkedIn page for career tips and advice

Interested in working with us?

Get in touch about career or leadership development, outplacement workshops or recruitment support via the Catalyst Careers website

Enjoyed this Episode?

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

2

This is the second of our episodes on

career planning and if you're listening

3

as it's released then it's early in the

new year, so it's a natural time for

4

people to be reflecting on their career

and thinking about what they want.

5

We've already both heard stories

about people handing in their

6

resignations early in the new but they

don't have to be new year episodes

7

so at any point that you listen.

8

We've designed them as two episodes

that work together in tandem to help you

9

hopefully create some clarity on where

your career is currently at and what you

10

might want to do in terms of next steps.

11

We would definitely recommend going

and listening to the previous episode.

12

In it, we shared six of our

favorite reflection questions

13

that we use when we're working

with career coaching clients.

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And that is.

15

a well worthwhile exercise to do before

you move on to the episode and what

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we're going to share with you today.

17

So Pam, once somebody has done that

reflection piece then, and they've some

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of their clarity about what some of

their strengths are, what they're proud

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of, what maybe hasn't gone so well.

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What do you do next in terms of

getting people thinking about what

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their future career might look like?

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What's the first step on that side of it?

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Pam: So the first step for me, and this

is part of the reverse engineer your

24

career strategy is to look at How many

years you've got left in your career

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before you retire, and it's a really

cool calculation and it's always a real

26

eye opener for people as well because

sometimes they might not realize how

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much or how little time they've got

left to make an impact in their career.

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So it's the first thing that we do

once you've done that reflection

29

and you've gone through all of the

good stuff and the uncomfortable

30

stuff and all of that great stuff.

31

It's looking at, okay how do we

move forward and how long have we

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got left to make that real impact?

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So if you're 40 now, for example,

and you're thinking of retiring

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at 65, then you've got 25 years

to make an impact in your career.

35

Okay.

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So 25 years for some people might

seem like a really long time and for

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others, I can tell by your face that

you're just thinking what 25 years.

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Jacqui: It just feels, I think it's

interesting probably for listeners

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to do that calculation mentally.

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I'm just imagining people listening to

this in the car and having the response

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that I have of Oh, I've got quite a long

time left and it, I'm often somebody

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that will go on to the next thing and

then the next thing operate at pace.

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And so I think when I think about the

length of time that I have got left,

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it feels longer than I expected it to.

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I was like, Oh, quite a long time.

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Pam: It's good though, isn't it?

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Because it really puts it into

perspective because we're constantly like.

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Go on to the next thing,

what do we need to do next?

49

Where do we need to move?

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And sometimes actually what we need

to do is just stand still and think

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about what is the best way to go?

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What is the best way to, to gain

the experience and the exposure

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that we need in order to achieve

our ultimate career goal.

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And sometimes we don't always know

what that ultimate career goal is.

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But nine times out of 10, we'll have

a pretty good idea of what salary

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we want to be earning, the type

of lifestyle we want to be living

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and all of that kind of stuff.

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So as part of reverse engineering your

career, that's where we start looking

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at, okay what's the bigger picture?

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What are you working towards?

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And then thinking about your ultimate

career goal and achieving that.

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I usually like to see people achieve

that ultimate goal with five to

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seven years of their career left.

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Because that gives them enough time to

make a real impact to really lay the

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foundations that you know for the next

person and to leave that career feeling

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successful that they've achieved what they

wanted to achieve and also being able to

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make a real impact during that as well.

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So I think when you're thinking about.

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Looking forward it's almost going, okay,

let's look at the bigger picture, not just

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the next role, or, looking for it's always

the next role, the next opportunity,

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the next course that, it's, there's

always something that's coming next.

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A lot of that stuff isn't necessary to get

to that ultimate career goal, but because

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we're constantly in go mode and trying

to get through everything as fast as we

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can, we don't realize how much time we've

got to actually make those considered

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choices and make more of an impact.

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Jacqui: And that is interesting as I

hear that thinking backwards that kind

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of five to seven years, because I think

for me, the natural assumption without

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hearing that would be you almost aim

to get to your ultimate career goal

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just before the end of your career.

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So where before I was saying

it felt like a long time.

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All of a sudden, if you take seven

years off, then that might feel like,

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ah, now there's actually not as much

time as I expected left to get to

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that ultimate career point, because

that does make quite a big difference

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if you've got say 20, 25 years left,

then taking seven years off it.

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That becomes a big chunk of that time.

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Pam: Yeah, it does, but what I find

really interesting about that is that

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when you know how long you've got,

you can then work out okay, these are

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the things I need to get exposure to.

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These are the experiences that I need

to have in order to achieve that goal.

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So what does that look like from

a bigger picture point of view?

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Does that look like a variety

of different job titles?

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Does that look like

some different courses?

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Does that look like just some real

kinds of, hands on experience?

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What does it look like?

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What do you need to do

in order to get there?

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And also looking at the gaps from where

you are now, to where you'd like to be.

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A lot of the time, because we're

so focused on moving forward, we

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completely overlook the fact that

we've got a lot of the experience

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that we need to take that next step.

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And one of the mistakes I see people

making is making lots of sideways

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moves because they feel they need more

experience or they need more of something.

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So they keep going sideways rather than

taking that step up because they never

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really look into what are the gaps?

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How far away am I?

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Is it possible to take that

next step or do I just need

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to keep gathering experiences?

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And this is where CVs can then

become flooded with lots of different

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jobs and it can make it then quite

difficult to go, overall, I've got

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this experience to take the step up.

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People find it really

hard to articulate that.

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Whereas looking at it from this point

of view and thinking about it from the

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reverse engineer, your career perspective,

you can work backwards and then you

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can go, okay this is where I am now.

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Actually, I'm only two or three jobs

away from that ultimate career goal.

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It might even be less depending

on where you are in your career.

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And then you can go right.

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Okay.

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So if it's two or three more jobs

and I've got say 18 years, what

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does that look like in reality?

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And what do I actually want

to do during that time?

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And that's where you can start

making those really considered

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choices and start exploring what

does the next step look like?

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And it could be that actually, as

part of making that move, you need to

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create a network or a stronger network.

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People only network when

they're looking to move jobs.

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They don't tend to build the network.

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And we've talked about this before on,

on the podcast, but when you see how

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many years you've got in front of you, to

make those career moves and to make those

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choices, then you can start taking more

considered action towards building that

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network and building relationships of

people without having to do it in a rush.

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Because now's the time to move and

you're constantly moving at pace, but

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you don't really know where you're moving

to and how each role benefits the next.

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Jacqui: Such good points.

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And as you were talking, there were

two different clients that I've

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worked with recently that came to mind

that really illustrate those points.

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So one was a senior client

already in a leadership role, knew

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that her ultimate career goal.

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Not that was my terminology in the

conversation, but recognized that

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her ultimate career goal was a CEO.

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And what happened was as we explored,

what are some of the things that you

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need to gain exposure to, or what

might you need in order to be at that?

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There was really only one element

that was significant that she needed

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to gain experience of or exposure to.

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Her leadership experience was great her

experience in terms of commercials and

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operations was really strong already.

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Actually, it was the detail of some

of the financials and that side of

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it that was really important for

her to be in a position to gain

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that opportunity in the future.

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So that really helped to shape what

might her development look like, and that

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didn't necessarily involve moving roles,

there was potential for her to gain that.

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For a different client, the networking

piece came in very much to the fore, for

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exactly that reason, that she recognized

that If I want to get the opportunities,

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and I find this with clients quite

often, people will be frustrated that

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other people are getting opportunities.

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And when you look at why they're getting

those opportunities, that's what they've

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been doing that I haven't been doing,

is they've been doing that networking.

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They've been putting themselves at the

forefront, making themselves memorable,

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having conversations with the right people

over a consistent period, as opposed to,

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I'm now in the early stages because I've

been putting my head down and doing a good

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job and waiting to be recognized for it.

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And that's often beneficial

for opportunities within

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the same organization.

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But if you want a broader range of

opportunities, or if you're in a

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bigger organization, that networking

piece and that strategic building

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of relationships is a crucial part

of your career strategy, isn't it?

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Pam: You're absolutely right.

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And those experiences that

your clients have had show that

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sometimes we can massively overlook

the things that we need to do.

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It can be so much simpler to make

those career moves than we think.

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And for the majority of senior leaders,

they will find any way that things like

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networking will secure them a role much

faster than job boards and, all of the

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good stuff that we do to job search.

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So just taking the time to think, how

long have I got left in my working career?

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What do I think my

ultimate career goal is?

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You don't have to know exactly.

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All of this stuff that we're talking

about, you don't have to exactly know

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what you want to do, but it's just

about moving in the right direction.

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It's about not wasting any time, making

sideways moves for the sake of it.

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Every single move that you make from

this point onwards, after listening

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to this podcast episode should be

a considered move and should be

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adding something to your career.

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Should be adding something to your CV

and should be adding something to your

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CV and should be adding something to

your CV and should be For you from a

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personal development point as well,

because if every move that you make is

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adding value to your career, and that

will really help you stay on track and

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move towards that ultimate career goal.

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And help you if you don't

already know what that looks

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like to really work it out.

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So it's a real change of mindset

and perspective . It's about

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putting you and your career first

and making those considered.

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Moves and taking those chances and moving

forward in your career in a way that

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benefits you and obviously all of the

companies that you work for, they're

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going to benefit from your focus from the

impact that you make, because you will

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be making a lot more impact when you're

taking or making those considered moves.

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It's, it's a really good thing to start

thinking about now, and even if you don't

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know all the answers, the reflection,

the journaling, the constantly bringing

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it to the front of your mind, and even

just questioning yourself on what's next.

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And, what you actually want to do

moving forward will really help

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you to find the right direction.

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And, if you're thinking, I'm really

stuck, I've done the reflection questions,

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I've tried to think about the ultimate

career goal, then, there's a way you

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can always do a power hour with us.

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Jeff, he does a great one

on fines and clarity and, we

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can support you in fines and.

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The answer, or at least helping

you work out what direction is

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going to be the best one for you.

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Jacqui: Do you find when you're

working with clients on this stuff

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that the ultimate career goal is

easier or harder than the next steps?

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So if people have been normally

thinking what's the next step and

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maybe finding that a struggle, do

they find it easier or harder to

211

envisage their ultimate career goal?

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Pam: I think it's always easier to get

the next job than it is to figure out

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what your ultimate career goal is because

it's, it seems depending on what point

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of your career that you're at, it often

seems like really unachievable at the

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point that you start thinking about it.

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And most people find it really hard

to bring it into reality, which is

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why the Reverse Engineer Your Career

Framework works really well in

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helping people to break that down.

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Lots of people come to us, don't they?

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And they're like do I stay in this role?

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Do I move?

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There's loads of things going

on that they're not happy with.

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Maybe they've reached a ceiling point

or, they've become stale in the role.

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There's so many different reasons like why

people start thinking about making a move.

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And it could even just simply be for

promotion because it's time to move.

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But so many people get stuck.

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And it is really a case of.

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Looking at, what am I getting from

this role, like lots of people that we

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work with actually, we start looking

at what is the ultimate career goal

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and start trying to work that out.

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And then what they come to realize is

that a lot of what they need to move

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on to gain clarity is there right in

front of them in that role, but they've

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completely overlooked it because.

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of a number of reasons.

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So sometimes it is like we always

say don't we, you need to stand

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still, you need to take that pause

to, to see, to really see what's

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ahead and what you need to do next.

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Jacqui: I am just thinking of somebody

else that I had a conversation with where

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there was immediately that resistance

when they tried to think about, and

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again, wasn't terminology that we use,

but their ultimate career goal, because

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they were very tied up in, but I've had

in this instance, very broad experience.

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So I've done all of these different things

who would give me an opportunity and.

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I think what's so helpful is if you

do start to have more of that view

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and to take a slightly different

perhaps definition of the ultimate

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career goal than might spring to mind.

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So when you first talked about it,

what struck me was you said you

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might not know exactly the title.

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But you might know the salary level,

the type of lifestyle that you want.

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And often when I'm working with clients,

we also think about elements like what

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type of company do you want to work for?

251

Do you want to work for a big company

with quite a lot of structure and

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larger teams, or do you want to work

for a smaller organization that maybe

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has less structure and decisions

might get made quicker, but the.

254

Might be some quirks.

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There's often quirks in founder

led businesses, the type that

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I often work with that, that

might feel quite different.

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And when you start to think about some

of those questions, what do you want?

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Do you want a big company or

do you want a smaller company?

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People often find that goes back to our

favorite word of specificity that type of

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specific question can be really helpful.

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So what are some of the other questions?

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That you would use to help

people to get a bit more clarity

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on what that might look like.

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Pam: So in terms of clarity, there's

absolutely tons of questions and

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you're right about the type of

company and all of that kind of stuff.

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And it might even be, the type

of environment, it might be

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the type of leader, it might

just be the company itself.

268

For example, one of my clients

recently really unhappy in the

269

role, couldn't put the finger on

what it is that they don't like.

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And actually when we looked at their

values, it was a real values mismatch.

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You know what they were selling and the

area that they were operating in really

272

didn't sit right with him and he hadn't.

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He just hadn't considered that it

just thought that he was feeling

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unfulfilled in the role that it wasn't

really doing much that he wasn't that

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first on the industry that maybe a

different industry will be better.

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And actually, it was a clear

values mismatch when we

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explored it in more detail.

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So there's so much more than just what

salary or you know what lifestyle like

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there's so much that sits behind that

and like you say the type of company the

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type of leader that you know the type of

environment, the people that you want to

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work with the projects that they run the

products that they sell the services.

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For example you might think I'm done

with sales, but it might just be that

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you're selling the wrong products.

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You might just not believe

in those products or have any

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interest in those products.

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And it's become really boring.

287

There's a whole range of different

reasons, but sometimes it is

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about, thinking that a little

bit deeper rather than thinking.

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I hate my job, which is what a

lot of people say to us, isn't it?

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I hate my job.

291

Ready to make a move.

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But actually breaking that down,

it's not the job that you hate.

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It's the people, it's the industry, it's

the environment, there's a lot more to it.

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And when you figure that out, it can.

295

It can make you a lot happier within

your career and make it so much

296

easier to make those moves because

again, you're making considered moves.

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Jacqui: That brought to mind as you

were talking, the idea that ambition is

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always about progression and progression.

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And I think there's that kind of

cultural piece that sometimes people

300

feel like they should want to progress.

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And I remember a conversation with a

client clarity hour where we were talking

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about what's important from the next move.

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This was very much around values.

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We had a whole whiteboard chart with

all the things that you want and all the

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things that are going to be red flags.

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So that's another approach that you

can use is to I want this type of

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culture, I want this type of leader,

I want these types of things to be

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in the role, and I don't want these.

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So you can start with what you don't want.

310

And often then say, okay if I don't

want that, what do I want instead?

311

And that can be a good

way to get more clarity.

312

And as we went through this exercise.

313

It became effectively a bit of a

wishlist for the longer term without

314

it necessarily being an attachment

for it's got to be the next move.

315

And what happened was 18 months

or two years later, I got a

316

message back from that client

with a picture of the whiteboard.

317

Saying, Oh my God, I've just realized

that the job I'm in is this, and by

318

going through that process of just

letting yourself think about what

319

you want more of and what you know

you don't want longer term, take away

320

the pressure of ultimate career goal.

321

If that language doesn't speak to you.

322

Take away worrying about what

the next move might look like and

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focus on what you want more of

and what you know you don't want.

324

And that just makes it so much easier

to create the clarity, doesn't it?

325

Pam: Yeah, and that's a really good

point that you made there as well.

326

Because one thing that I always say to

people, especially if they're really

327

not enjoying their current role, is stop

thinking about it as, this is a role

328

that you're stuck in for the foreseeable.

329

Start going in every day and

thinking, what can I learn?

330

From this situation, what can I

learn from the things that I'm doing?

331

Is there anything else that I can learn?

332

Is there anything else

I can get exposure to?

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Even things like having difficult

conversations with people and really

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thinking what can I take from this?

335

And rather than looking at it like,

oh, and the alarm goes off and you're

336

hitting snooze because you don't want to

get out of bed and all of that kind of

337

stuff like that, that can really happen.

338

And I've seen so many people turn that

around and go rather than focusing

339

on all the stuff that I don't like,

I'm going to focus on what I can

340

learn, what I can take from every

situation that I find myself in.

341

All of this stuff, I always say

back to interview prep, don't I?

342

But it's always good interview prep,

it's always good stuff that, anything

343

that you do when you start really

focusing in, they're going to be

344

all of your interview prep examples.

345

They're going to be the stories

that you can talk about.

346

And there's nothing better than turning,

like flipping that mindset on its head

347

and going from, I'm fed up in this

role to actually what can I learn?

348

What can I take from

every day in this role?

349

And it really does help.

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Jacqui: Brilliant.

351

One final question before we wrap up,

so you talked about this process of

352

figure out how long you've got left,

take away five to seven years and

353

figure out what you recognize would

be important for you at that point,

354

role, business, all of that stuff.

355

And from there, you said often there's

actually only maybe two or three moves.

356

It doesn't have to be lots

and lots of moves to get from

357

where you are to that thing.

358

Once people have done that bit, how do you

then help them make that decision about

359

whether to make a move and if so, when?

360

Because I think for a lot of people,

if they've been doing that reflection,

361

there's still that question of, okay,

so maybe I know now what I'm heading

362

towards, maybe I know that perhaps it's

a bit closer than I think, or maybe

363

it's the opposite and I haven't got

as much time as I think and I need to

364

think about it sooner rather than later.

365

But how do they make that final decision?

366

bit of decision about what type

of move to look for and when.

367

Pam: That's a really good point

, because it is now that I've got all

368

of this, all of these great thoughts

going on and I've got a better

369

plan, it's when do I make that move?

370

And for me, it's, You probably should

start thinking about making that

371

move while you're thinking about

it, because you'll be motivated

372

to get into that job search.

373

And the first part of your job search

is going to be getting yourself

374

set up and making sure that you are

positioning yourself in the market.

375

So CV, LinkedIn, all of that good stuff.

376

So when you start thinking about it.

377

Start updating those documents, then what

you can do then is start having a look

378

at what is around and looking on the job

boards, maybe speaking to some recruiters,

379

testing out your network, you can start

easing yourself into it and doing it

380

that way also means there's no real

pressure on you and you get that time.

381

To really think through what you're doing.

382

You're not just throwing a CV

together and getting it out there.

383

You can start, as you start talking

through your experience, I always find

384

that you'll go, Oh, that's something else.

385

And it's not on my CV.

386

So when you're giving yourself that.

387

Time and space to start that job search

and start that exploration period.

388

You're also opening up your mind and

basically helping yourself to get all of

389

the good stuff that might be missing into

things like your CV and onto LinkedIn

390

and also documented for interview prep.

391

So as soon as you start thinking

about it, start getting yourself

392

prepared, start thinking about

everything we've talked about, on

393

last week's podcast and this one.

394

And.

395

Start just exploring, see what's out

there and start just testing the water.

396

Even if that is in the form of

applying for a role, there's no

397

harm in testing the water ever.

398

Get, just get yourself set up and

start getting yourself out there.

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Jacqui: I remember a career coach that I

worked with when I was employed and Having

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a similar discussion around timing and she

fed back to me, which was really true and

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I hadn't recognized it until that point.

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My tendency was to stay too long and

often I did that because I valued the

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relationships that I'd built in roles and

so I would stay too long, the detriment

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of my career because I like the people

and had good relationships and I think

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it's great advice to be open and to be

exploring and inquisitive and curious

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and look for things that appeal at a time

when you're not desperate to make a move.

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Because how you present as a candidate,

when we go all the way back to some

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of the conversations we've had about

the importance of recruitment being

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a two way process, so much easier for

you to genuinely go into a process

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as a two way thing and I'm only

going to make the move if I feel

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that this is definitely right for me.

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If you are still happy where you are.

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If you wait until the point that

you're unhappy where you are and

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where you are hating the alarm

clock going off every morning.

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Then you have to do more of that

work around your mindset and

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being able to focus on your job

search as opposed to if you do it

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earlier with less pressure on you.

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So I would, from my own experience

in my career wish, wish I'd have

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had that advice 15 or so years ago.

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So, thank you for sharing that framework.

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And if anybody that is listening would

like to work with Pam, if you've got

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to that point where you recognize that

you do need to make a move and you

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want to do that sooner rather than

later, then Pam has an amazing program

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called the Job Search Accelerator,

which has phenomenal results.

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So if you are looking for some of

that support in your job search around

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the practicalities of getting your

profile together around finding the

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right things and making sure that you

are prepped properly for interview,

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then the program covers all of that.

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If you're at that slightly earlier, more

explorative stage of wanting to create the

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clarity, then we can absolutely help with

that as well so do just drop us a message.

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Thank you for listening.

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And we will be back next

week with another episode.

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We have done loads of planning

ourselves for the content and the

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episodes that we know that we want to

cover during the course of this year.

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But as ever, we love adapting that

and ensuring that we cover the

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things that you like to listen to.

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So if there are any topics that you would

like us to cover or anything that will

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be helpful, then please do let us know.

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And if you could drop us a

rating or review on your favorite

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podcast platform of choice.

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That really does help to get us

seen and heard by new listeners

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who potentially also need to

take ownership of their career.

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Thank you so much for listening and

we'll catch you again next time.