Who are you after losing someone who helped define you? Amanda Anderson joins me to explore grief, anxiety and rebuilding your sense of self when life changes beyond recognition.

Amanda has experienced the murder of her brother, the loss of her sister and father, and a stroke that affected her memory and language. Having served as Global Mental Health Project Lead at L’Occitane, she also brings experience of supporting others through crisis.

But one of the most revealing moments in our conversation comes from her walks after her father’s death, when she kept asking: “Who am I without him?” She shares the different question that helped her begin to see herself—and what he had left her—in another light.

Together, we explore how she has navigated uncertainty, what she reaches for when emotions feel overwhelming, and the expectations that can quietly steer us away from the lives we want.

In this episode:

• Why grief can shake your identity as well as break your heart.
• How Amanda responds when her thoughts spiral towards the worst-case scenario.
• What “rage journaling” looks like for her—and why she uses it.
• The difference between reframing a painful experience and forcing yourself to feel positive.
• How invisible social rules teach us to hide our sensitivity and silence our ideas.
• What supporting people through crisis has taught her about listening.

Chapters:

00:00 Human behaviour and playing small

00:36 The question that prompted a life change

06:21 NLP, perception and reframing

09:36 Reframing versus positive thinking

13:41 Trauma, uncertainty and coping

21:59 Self-awareness and recognising your choices

25:23 Amanda’s approach to rage journaling

28:43 What does trauma mean?

33:37 Amanda’s experiences of loss and trauma

43:04 Supporting people through crisis

44:32 Losing a parent and questioning your identity

48:28 The invisible rules that keep us small

An honest conversation about emotional resilience, living with loss and recognising when fear or other people’s expectations are making your decisions.

Follow The Breaking Point Podcast for more conversations about mental health, psychology, relationships and purpose.

Content note: Discussion of bereavement, murder, child assault, suicide, serious illness and violence.

Look, essentially I talk about human behavior and playing small and how we're impacted by

social conditioning and invisible rules.

2

So I guess anything to do with human behaviour, mental health, I guess, you know,

workplace culture, how we operate, any of those kind of things.

3

How did you where what was the first sort of block there?

4

Specific obviously you've got a a very, you know, traumatic past that we'll we'll get

into.

5

But was presumably it was those experiences that made you go down this path or had you

were you already down that path?

6

No, so what had happened, I had I'd grown up with all my experiences, which I'm happy to

talk about.

7

Mm-hmm.

8

But I didn't necessarily do any work around those experiences.

9

I just was a normal person and went and got a normal job.

10

And I found that throughout each of my roles within my career, I ended up sort of, you

know, being drawn to

11

Anything that had to do with people, relationships, mental health, you know, and so on and

so forth.

12

And I ended up being the global mental health lead for L'Occitan on Provence.

13

What is that?

14

'Cause I saw that, I didn't understand what that meant.

15

So Global Mental Health Project Lead, I it was my job to come up with a mental health

program for the entire company.

16

Um, and Loccitan is a French skincare company.

17

Yes.

18

That's you and I sort of worked my way to get to that point and didn't necessarily I mean,

obviously I knew I had trauma.

19

I knew I, you know, I worked through things throughout my life.

20

I've done an NLP masters, I've done psychology at uni, you know, like I had

21

my experiences, but it was only a couple of years ago I took a staycation where, you know,

I it was Christmas holidays and I didn't want to go anywhere.

22

I just needed some processing time, I guess.

23

And I was walking down the street and I was unhappy.

24

And I thought, you know, I've got to change my life.

25

Like what is going on here?

26

This is crazy.

27

And I remember thinking, most people ask themselves, you know, what would you do if you

won the lottery?

28

And I thought,

29

That to me doesn't feel like a realistic question.

30

You know, one, I'm not likely to win the lottery.

31

It's like one in 17 million that win.

32

And two, even if I did win, I'd just go traveling, you know, or I'd buy a new house.

33

It's not necessarily gonna change sort of my experience of my own life, kind of thing.

34

And then it hit me and I was like, okay, well, what if I got a phone call from my GP?

35

Because I'd just had blood tests actually.

36

What if I got a phone call from my GP and he said,

37

I'm really sorry, but you actually have a terminal illness.

38

You've got, you know, a year to live.

39

And at my first thought was I would be really pissed off, right?

40

But then I also thought, not just about the fact that I had a terminal illness, but it was

more that I would be angry about the fact that I've lived my entire life for, you know,

41

what I thought I was meant to be doing or for other people.

42

I wasn't following my

43

true passion and my true skill set and the thing that kind of fueled me.

44

And so that's when I started doing sort of more of that targeted work.

45

Like I said, I'd already done my masters in NLP.

46

I'd already, you know, had a mental health background through my career and things like

that.

47

But that's when I started doing keynote speaking, broadcasting, started to write a book

all on that kind of topic or at least that realm.

48

So I thinking when you say broadcasting, obviously there's a lot you just said, we'll

we'll get into it.

49

But we have like shows in the UK that are like breakfast shows that I guess

stereotypically housewives watch like earlier in the morning and they have people on and

50

they come and speak.

51

When you say broadcasting, is that sort of broadcasting you'd like to do to go on a a show

that's being sort of visible by the is being broadcasted to the entire nation?

52

Or do you mean not on television or what's

53

I it's I haven't found the right word for it, but I almost want to be a professional

communicator.

54

I want I have I feel that I have a really strong message and I feel like people need to

hear it and I that's why I want to do keynotes, panels, podcasts, TV, radio, write

55

articles, anything to sort of get it out there.

56

So that's what I think of when I say broadcasting.

57

So yeah, I mean being on a a T V show that, you know, I'm being interviewed and things

like that.

58

Absolutely.

59

Why London?

60

'Cause that's something else she said.

61

Well, I'm actually English, born and bred.

62

I know you can't tell.

63

Really?

64

Wow.

65

Oh, so you can that's perfectly achievable then.

66

Yeah.

67

So I actually so I w my parents were living in Africa in Nigeria when I was in my mother's

stomach and the cord was around my neck six times while I was in neutro.

68

And they realized that I couldn't be born in Africa.

69

So they flew to England.

70

I was born there, but all my family was there anyway.

71

And then we went back to Africa.

72

I stayed there for ten years and then we went back to England.

73

And then my sister was born.

74

We came here.

75

to Australia, but my heart is in England, my family is in England.

76

And I think as well when we would visit from Africa, you know, you always go back and it's

Christmas.

77

Or, you know, like you're the special guest of honor and, you know, it just feels homely.

78

And so yeah, England warms my heart.

79

Like I would live there in a heartbeat.

80

I told my husband, you tell me when you're ready to go and I'll be back.

81

Yeah, fair enough.

82

Yeah, Christmas in England is is pretty good, to be fair.

83

Probably not as good as America.

84

And it will be complete it must have been completely different for you because you would

have left intense heat to like our coldest time of year.

85

So and there's something I'd love to experience like Christmas on the beach, but there's

something special about Christmas.

86

Not that it ever snows on Christmas nowadays.

87

It did a bit when I was younger, I think.

88

But regardless, yeah, I I rate that.

89

So

90

Can you tell people what N L P is for anyone out there that doesn't know?

91

I have had people on podcast before that have spoken about N L P but we'll do a refresher.

92

Yeah, so NLP stands for Neurolinguistic Programming.

93

And essentially it's about it to me anyway, it's about how you represent your external

experiences through language and through your thoughts into your mind and your feelings

94

and therefore impact your actions.

95

So it's all about perception, perspective, reframing meaning.

96

Um Yeah, it's sort of controlling it.

97

The way that I kind of see it is if you are able to

98

I hate the word control because I think control kind of implies rigidity.

99

I I don't think it's rigid.

100

But if you can be mindful of how you think, it can impact your entire world, either

negatively or really positively.

101

So you say you say something about ex is it primarily external through to internal as

opposed to internal out to external?

102

And is it more about reframing the what you see outside as opposed to you did to be fair,

you did just say reframing your thoughts internally.

103

So presumably it's you reframe internally and externally depending on what

104

I think it's it's it's anything.

105

I mean, one of my favorite examples when they talk about NLP is they'll say, you know, and

I won't do it here, so it won't probably work because I'm not going to do it properly, but

106

they'll get someone to imagine a lemon and they'll say, Okay, you know, imagine the lemon,

imagine cutting it in half, and you can see all the juice and you can, you know, like and

107

they paint that picture.

108

And while they're talking, you can feel your celivate, like you can feel your salivary

glands.

109

No, you can feel your glands.

110

Salivating.

111

Yeah.

112

And so that is basically it's the perfect example of how you think impacts how you feel.

113

And then obviously how you feel impacts your behavior and your actions and what you choose

to do.

114

And so, you know, if I was to, I don't know, if I was to be sitting at a dinner table and

a friend of, you know, some like the person I was with came over to the table and said

115

hello to everyone and sort of gave me short shift and went, hi, how are you?

116

And then kept talking.

117

If I then perceive that situation to be, well, he wasn't very friendly, or maybe he

doesn't like me, then I'm going to behave very differently the next time that I see him.

118

Whereas if that exact same experience happened and I thought, he must be in a rush, no

worries, see you later, then the way I behave in the future towards him would be

119

completely different as well.

120

So everything is about how you think, whether it's an external situation or like the

lemon, an internal.

121

Representation.

122

And presumably the goal well th the goal, I guess maybe that's a loaded term, but the goal

would be to perceive things in a more positive manner as opposed to seeing things in a

123

negative manner.

124

Or can Or can Yeah, would that would that well I was gonna say or c I was I'm trying to

play devil's advocate across a point amongst my own point that I made.

125

But yeah, so presumably you trying you're trying when someone comes to you with that

issue, you're trying to move them away from perceiving it ne ac

126

perceiving it, what's the word, reflecting negatively on them as opposed to just they're

in a rush, the as opposed to the person's in a rush or not project projecting it onto

127

themselves.

128

Exactly.

129

And I think that, you know, you mentioned before about being positive.

130

I am wary of like positive thinking because, you know, sometimes, especially when you've

had trauma and things like that, it's very difficult to have positive thinking.

131

But what it is, it's about being able to reframe a situation so that it is of benefit to

you.

132

It helps you in some way, you know.

133

I've got I have an example if you're if you're interested.

134

My daughter, my my younger

135

Daughter, she was diagnosed with a medical itch issue.

136

And when we were told, my husband really didn't cope with that.

137

You know, he he really struggled for with it.

138

He struggled with, you know, how how did she get it?

139

What are we gonna do about it?

140

How's it gonna impact the rest of her life?

141

And it really, you know, like it really impacted him, and rightly so.

142

But what ended up happening was he kind of spiraled with that information.

143

He, you know, he wasn't coping.

144

And

145

I was basically okay.

146

And I mean, I was upset by it, obviously, but I was ultimately okay.

147

And and he said to me in a moment of, you know, vulnerability, he's like, Why are you not

upset?

148

Like, why am I the only one that's upset?

149

And the difference was is that I could say to him, Look, you know, I know that she has

this condition and I know it's gonna impact her for the rest of her life.

150

And it's not amazing.

151

I understand that.

152

But the way that I was looking at it was like she had leukemia, right?

153

I didn't give it to her.

154

I can't take it away from her.

155

Worrying about how it's going to impact her 10, 15 years from now is not anything I can

do.

156

So my main focus is to support her and help manage the situation.

157

Whereas exact same situation, he was thinking, my God, like how did this happen and what

are we going to do about it?

158

And sort of catastrophizing over it.

159

So it does really impact, you know, how you think really impacts.

160

how you feel and then what you can do with it.

161

You know, and I was in a better position to be able to sort of strategize around it and

think, okay, what we now need to do is, you know, we need to look at this or we need to

162

research that, or maybe we need to do nothing and just be present, you know, whatever it

is.

163

But you're better equipped when you're not spiraling.

164

Definitely, yeah.

165

And that's a that's a really good term, spiraling.

166

I think it's very applicable in in lots of different facets of life, but specifically uh

mental health and difficulties like that.

167

With that specific example, would you say that your thought process was enlarged to at

least some degree based around keeping the time frame minimal?

168

Because presumably spiraling, you can spiral from a time frame perspective.

169

So you could say what's going to happen tomorrow.

170

And then it's just gonna go on and on and on.

171

And and as you s your husband was like, or you said, try not to think about how it may

impact her in 10 to 15 years' time.

172

That's the spiral you could get yourself in, the time spiral.

173

Another spiral would be like an existential spiral of will things compound in a negative

manner and just get progressively worse and worse and worse, which obviously can happen.

174

It could not happen the other way though.

175

They can get better and better and they things tend to compound in that way.

176

What sort of thought presses were you if maybe it was

177

Presumably, well, you've done this such a to such a level now and you're so well trained

in it that you will be able to do you'll be able to experience these processes

178

subconsciously and they'll just sort of click around you and you'll just won't even work

out and you'll just go, I just got from A to B without Exactly.

179

It's not a conscious progression for you to get there.

180

But in that specific example, 'cause obviously every single why myself is so complicated,

it's because every single case is different and

181

every single route from negative stimulus to positive reaction as opposed to negative

reaction is also a different path.

182

Do you know what you were thinking at the uh during that sort of revelation, which meant

that you didn't spiral, so to speak, down that path of potential negativity?

183

I think that I think there's multiple multiple pieces going on at that time.

184

And I have to acknowledge in in fairness to, you know, my husband, apart from the fact

that I've done NLP and I know the power of, you know, thinking and I can change, you know,

185

what they call submodalities, which is how you represent something in your brain to

yourself.

186

And by changing those submodalities you can change how you feel.

187

So there's all these little techniques, but

188

The reality is as well, is, you know, I have had trauma, multiple traumas since the age of

ten.

189

And what's happened with each one of them is that you end up you learn that the world is

not safe.

190

You learn that things are gonna happen and they could be really bad things and that

there's no predictability.

191

You know, you could get a phone call today and think my God, this is the worst thing

that's happened, and then three weeks from now, the other worst thing that could happen

192

also happens.

193

But

194

what I think comes from that, and this is where I actually genuinely feel that I'm very

lucky, is that throughout all of those varying traumas, I have learned that I will still

195

be standing.

196

I can get through it no matter how hard it is.

197

And, you know, I think that knowledge of the fact that, you know, nothing is predictable

means that I can't predict it's going to be bad either.

198

You know, I can't say in five years it's going to be worse because

199

might be better.

200

I can't worry about, you know, what it's going to be like in 10 years because in my

experience, that person may not live for another 10 years.

201

You know what I mean?

202

So I think you you learn to deal with what's in front of you at the time that it's in

front of you.

203

And and then obviously there's the, you know, the experience, you know, with NLP and and

psychology and emotional intelligence and self-awareness that also comes with multiple

204

traumas.

205

You

206

you get very comfortable with who you are and how you feel about things.

207

So yeah, there's a few pieces in there.

208

Yeah, no, that's a that's a good example.

209

It is the there's 'cause you could almost as much as it's exceptionally reductionistic and

unfair, you could almost reduce anxiety to the to that.

210

You see have you seen that sort of line diagram where it's like, Can you worry should you

are you worried about something?

211

Yes, no, no, great, yes.

212

Can you do something about it?

213

No.

214

Then back to the start.

215

Can you do something about it?

216

Yes, then great.

217

And it's

218

As much as that is like the most useless piece of information ever and it it is void of

the enormously enormous amount of complexities and variables that are apparent in life.

219

At its core, there's an interesting concept behind that, that even if I always say that

you find things in life that maybe knock off three percent of your difficulties.

220

And if th and you just build you just stack those three percents up.

221

No, I'm not saying this is this isn't actually a good example because I don't think that

does knock off three percent.

222

But regardless, it just came to me.

223

So I think that's a very, very logical and very helpful, beneficial way of looking at

things.

224

But it's not it's probably not something that comes natural to many people, especially

people that are prone to anxiety.

225

Hundred percent.

226

And I think that example that you were talking about, the, you know, the decision tree,

that is dealing with anxiety from a logical perspective.

227

And a lot of the time anxiety is actually in your body.

228

And so, yes, it can help you mentally go, okay, I'm worrying about something that I don't

need to worry about.

229

I have no control over it.

230

If you're still feeling anxious, it's very hard to, you know, like tie the two together.

231

But on your point actually of sort of

232

building those coping mechanisms.

233

You are a hundred percent right because as you were saying it, I was thinking, actually, I

throughout my life, I've done, you know, I've learned what works in this situation and

234

what works in this situation and what works in this situation.

235

And you end up building a catalog of coping mechanisms.

236

And I probably don't even realize that often that I actually go through them.

237

I work through them until I start to feel a little bit better.

238

And I think, you know, maybe that's where I'm lucky is that I've been able to go through

these coping mechanisms and learn them and and catalog them.

239

Whereas someone who's maybe not had anything happen to them in their lives, when something

bad happens, they don't know that they're equipped.

240

They don't know what to do with that information.

241

Yeah.

242

And and it's uh Yeah, I mean it's it's called the Breaking Point Podcast because well one

of my favorite quotes is that which you need most will be found where you least want to

243

look.

244

And it's a Carl Junge quote.

245

Do you know Carl Jun?

246

Yeah, he he's he's brilliant.

247

It's not it's not exactly relevant, but obviously as we we s speak more about you

specifically, you've managed to navigate exceptionally tricky exceptionally tricky

248

periods and and phenomenons and occurrences in a way that you've forti fortified yourself

against the existential difficulties that that that we all that we all face.

249

Just one thing I just when we talk about the stacking thing.

250

I love talking about this because I think it's really interesting.

251

Do you do you meditate?

252

Do you do meditation?

253

I do.

254

Is that yeah.

255

So I would generally recommend anyone s that struggles with anxiety, but particularly

panic.

256

to not necessarily meditate, but to I noticed this when I was years ago and was lying next

to an ex girlfriend and she struggled with anxiety.

257

And I noticed how many like one of my breaths inhales, exhales, was like three or four of

her breaths.

258

And I remember thinking, no wonder you get so anxious because if that's your or so

panicky, because if that's your baseline, you add a little bit of like I don't I don't

259

exactly understand, or at least off the top of my head, you had a bit of

260

adrenaline and cortisol to you and your breathing shifts, your your your what would you

say, your zero to sixty with regards to baseline to like hyperventilation anxiety is going

261

to be so much quicker than someone who has a baseline of a of a lower.

262

So anyone out there who has struggled with panic, try and increase the length of your

breaths because it gives you more do you understand what I mean?

263

It gives you more sort of room.

264

It gives you a wind opportunity.

265

And

266

That.

267

Yeah.

268

So there's actually scientific proof that when we breathe in and take a big breath in, we

actually increase our level of adrenaline, right?

269

Because it's almost like the body's saying, okay, we're about to get ready for something.

270

So let's let's pump it up, kind of thing.

271

When we exhale, that activates our parasympathetic system.

272

And so we actually relax.

273

So when you are panicked or having anxiety,

274

It's actually better to exhale twice as long as possible than you breathe in.

275

So, you know, when I've had things, I do, you know, it's not it's diaphragmatic breathing

basically.

276

Yeah.

277

I breathe into my stomach and I count and then I try and I compete with myself because I'm

a bit of a weirdo.

278

And I try and think, Okay, well, if I breathed in for four seconds, I'm not just gonna do

eight, I'm gonna try and do twelve.

279

And so I just, you know, breathe out as much as possible.

280

So

281

Yeah, all of those little things help.

282

Yeah.

283

Right, let's what should we do?

284

Shall we I've got some of the questions that I that I wrote down that I thought they're

not actually questions, they're more like quotes from your website that I thought were

285

really interesting.

286

So we'll we'll do that because and then we'll then we'll get on to you.

287

So I notice when what people stop noticing in themselves.

288

So that's obvious that part of your like coaching methodology, so to speak, or philosophy?

289

My brand positioning, yeah.

290

I don't coach, just so just Yes, it's more sort of part of my messaging, yes.

291

Okay.

292

And what sort of so would you have a consultation with someone and then would you be

looking for or not consultation, but would you would you how would that manifest itself?

293

So basically what I what I tend to do is with my keynotes, I'm my purpose for my messaging

is I want to get people to recognize themselves in the moment that something's happening

294

so that they can then have a choice with what they do with that.

295

Okay.

296

So for example, if we were to talk about the original commentary I gave about my husband

sort of catastrophizing versus me not.

297

You know, what I try and do, I don't try and fix people's problems.

298

I don't try and give them advice.

299

I don't try and coach them or teach them or even really educate intentionally.

300

Yeah.

301

I can educate through, you know, my experience or what's, you know, tell a story about

what's happened and and hopefully they then learn through that.

302

But my purpose is not to educate.

303

My purpose is to get them to recognize themselves in that moment.

304

So if that was my husband and I, you know.

305

to be able to point out to him, well, this is how I'm thinking.

306

So that it he then goes, hang on.

307

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

308

I'm doing this thinking and that's not really working for me.

309

And I go, well, okay, you know, up to you, what you do with it.

310

So it's more and that's why I do keynote speaking and, you know, communicating as opposed

to coaching, consulting, advising, because I want people to basically

311

get mirror and recognize themselves in the moment and then they have choice.

312

Once you have choice, you can choose whether you still want to stay there or not.

313

It's totally up to you.

314

And I think sometimes, you know, coaches and advisors and consultants, it's very easy to

give advice.

315

But if the person doesn't see that they've got the problem in the first place, then it

doesn't matter what you tell them to do.

316

Yeah.

317

You kind of gotta want to do it yourself.

318

Yeah, that's the that's like a prerequisite of gaining any I think Carl Jung had a quote

on that about it's not it's not obviously the the like the more modern wine or that we use

319

in like across multiple fields is you could bring a host to water but you can't make it

drink.

320

But uh yeah, it has to there has to be a a willingness to uh to not necessarily get

better, but to to be aware that there is is potentially an issue.

321

When Oh, what was I gonna say?

322

You said

323

yeah, so I've always said that sort of going back to the whole breathing thing, it's

really important to practice and coping mechanisms as well.

324

It's really important to practice like I guess it would be applicable to awareness and

breed and coping mechanisms when you're in a calm state.

325

Because you know the whole sort of cliche of someone told you to calm down when you're p

when you're n not feeling calm and it's completely useless.

326

So you have to practice these things when you're in a in a in a balanced state.

327

Do you do you find that that's

328

There's validity behind me thinking that.

329

So sorry.

330

Excuse me.

331

Hold up until you'd finished asking your question.

332

I

333

But I've actually got a bottle here.

334

It's okay.

335

Okay.

336

I don't know what happened.

337

I was just like, I'm gonna cop, I'm gonna cop but I kept thinking if I wait till you

finish your question, you can edit

338

That's true.

339

I appreciate that, yeah.

340

No.

341

Drink away.

342

Yeah, so I think I think in a perfect world you feel calm and relaxed, or at least like

the issue that you have is able to be dealt with.

343

I think when you really need it, no, you are not calm and relaxed.

344

You you definitely struggle.

345

Um, what I have found is I do this thing that I call rage journaling.

346

You could probably do it with anxiety, you could probably do it with depression.

347

I have no doubt that you could do it with lots of lots of issues.

348

I do it with rage because I seem to have a little bit of rage in me, you know?

349

But so what it is is you just get a pen and paper and you don't even look at the paper,

right?

350

Because you're not it's not in it's not supposed to look like anything.

351

And I write down ev anything and everything that comes to my mind and it's really quick,

and I write over the top of it.

352

In the end, it looks like a scribble.

353

So no one would be able to read anything, even myself.

354

But I will say, and I always start with thank you because I don't want to be kind of like

a winger, but I'll say thank you for that stupid bloody woman that walked across the road

355

when I was driving my car down the street.

356

And thank you for the fact that I was late.

357

And thank you for the fact that my alarm didn't go off.

358

And thank you for and and I'll just go on and on and on.

359

And sometimes it'll be really big stuff because you're going through something and you

just that's that's the topic.

360

Other times it'll be really simple small stuff, like I just said.

361

But

362

And sometimes it'll take me three minutes and sometimes it'll take me twenty minutes.

363

But at the end of it, I've purged everything.

364

And my problem is still there, but I'm no longer holding it.

365

And it it is a really good example of a coping mechanism that you don't use when you're

already calm.

366

Do you know what I mean?

367

Like it's very hard to meditate if you are ropeable or really anxious.

368

It's very hard to be like, okay, I'm just gonna chill myself out now.

369

So I think it's about finding different ways to deal with things where you're at.

370

And then as you drop, then you can go, like you can do rage journaling because you're in

the throes of being furious.

371

And once you've purged it, then you can go, All right, now I will try meditating and then,

you know, go into the next phase.

372

I should look into a couple of I I should meditate, but does anyone know why writing

things down is so therapeutic?

373

Like is this like from a scientific point of view?

374

Presumably there's some sort of

375

Yeah, there is.

376

It's something to do with I can't remember exactly what it is, but the process of writing

activates a certain part of your brain which then like either 'cause it either can it's

377

like when you're studying, you're supposed to write down your study notes and your brain

retains it a little bit more.

378

Yeah.

379

And so maybe there's a reverse action of that.

380

When you write something down, you kind of can let it go once it's written down, as

opposed to typing.

381

Yeah, I suppose it's so fundamental to being like human, isn't it?

382

And it's something that we started doing at such a young age.

383

I wonder if someone starts writing when they're fifteen, if it still has the potential to

have the same impact on them, or if it's primarily as a result of them doing it when they

384

were four or five.

385

Anyway, that's not relevant, but just little thing.

386

Interesting topic, yeah.

387

Yeah.

388

So you how do you define do you even like how do you define trauma?

389

And do you like the question me asking you how do you define it personally, or do you

think trauma should have a unanimous definition that we should all abide by?

390

Do you understand what I mean?

391

I do.

392

I totally understand what you mean.

393

So I I mean, obviously there's clinically there's, you know, big T trauma.

394

So car crash, death, you know, divorce, things like that.

395

Then there's little T trauma, which is what I call death by a thousand cuts.

396

You know, that's things like bullying or narcissism or emotional abuse that feels like

it's day to day, you know, activity, but it can actually whittle you down.

397

Mm-hmm.

398

I think trauma is individual.

399

I think there are the categories where you can say, Well, that's definitely trauma and

that's definitely trauma but I think there's also avenues for people to experience trauma

400

that doesn't necessarily fit into those categories.

401

I mean, there's like have you heard the term HSP?

402

Highly sensitive people.

403

Yeah.

404

Yeah, I've heard that, yeah.

405

And and R R S D is rejection sensitive to Hibberty disorder, things like that.

406

So to someone who maybe has RSD or is, you know, a HSB, then they're gonna absolutely feel

like a certain situation might be more traumatic than someone like even me, who's been

407

through all these other traumas and thinks, well, that's not that big a deal.

408

You know, in comparison.

409

So I do think that trauma is individual and I think it's

410

Anything that you I think it's anything that kind of rips the rug out from underneath you

that you have a moment of thinking, crap, I don't know if I can handle this.

411

That to me I think is ultimately trauma.

412

Mm.

413

I know that's not the technically correct definition, but you know, if someone called me

and said, you know, this is what's going on and I just don't know how I'm gonna cope with

414

it and it impacts them, you know, for potentially the rest of their life, that to me is

trauma.

415

Mm.

416

And I think you're both sort of both of us acknowledge the idea that trauma could be

subjective.

417

And obviously there are definable like there's a category of occurrences and experiences

that definitely classify as like clinical trauma.

418

But then there's also Death by a Thousand Cuts is is a good way of putting it and and

obviously because obviously people are more sensitive to things.

419

I I was watching this video a while ago and this guy was talking about how a good way to

sort of force the word, not mythologically, maybe but not visually either.

420

Maybe sort of visually represent trauma is like you're walking around field and there's

loads of pits in the ground and you keep falling into them.

421

And one of the reasons why you're traumatized is because you don't know where those pits

are and it's it's it's almost less so the fact that

422

you're falling into them and more about the fact that you can't see where they are and and

guess that would translate more to you're unaware of your sort of your conception of the

423

world is outdated and the only way that you can sort of is you have to work out I guess

two ways.

424

One would be you work out if you fall down a dip, how to get back out again.

425

That would be one way.

426

And another would be work out how to eradicate the mist or so that you can see what's

going on around you more.

427

How

428

I I think you I guess you kinda did just sort of explain your definition of trauma, but

how would you define trauma from a a more metaphoric that's the word, more metaphorical

429

point of view?

430

Do you ever do you view it that way?

431

Yeah, look, I actually think so using your uh example, I think that often with trauma, you

can't control the the mist.

432

You can't control what's gonna happen to you.

433

Like I said before, you can get a phone call this morning, the worst thing could happen,

and then you could get a phone call this afternoon and the next worst thing could happen.

434

So, you know, there's a saying, control the controllables.

435

Not everything, especially when it comes to trauma, is controllable.

436

So with your metaphor, I would actually say trauma is when you fall in the ditch and you

have no capacity to figure out how to get out of that.

437

Yeah.

438

Okay.

439

I think that that's that's fair enough.

440

How should we let's talk about what are you willing to talk about with your past?

441

Because obviously that's a large part of all of it.

442

All of it.

443

Do you wanna go into talk about that and and how you what you experienced and how you

managed it and how it's impacted your view of the world and yourself?

444

Yeah.

445

So just for your information, I will share everything.

446

And if there's anything that you're concerned about potentially triggering your audience,

happy for you to cut it however you need to.

447

Yeah.

448

Um, okay.

449

What I'll do is I'll why don't I give you my sort of list and then you can ask questions

about any one of those.

450

Okay.

451

Yeah.

452

And I don't want I I know that I talk about it and I have a dry sense of humor as well.

453

And I will sometimes cope with it by you know, being witty.

454

But I don't make light of, you know, any of this trauma because I do know that, you know,

people have not necessarily you know, people who've been through it have not necessarily

455

had post traumatic growth.

456

So I come from it from one side of the fence, but I'm fully aware that there is the other

side, you know, which I've also experienced.

457

So when I was ten, we moved back to England from Africa and we then my father couldn't get

work and so we moved to Australia.

458

And my brother, who was about sixteen, seventeen, because he'd been in school in Africa,

when we came to England, he wasn't matching the curriculum, the standard.

459

So he ended up going into boarding school so that he could sort of, you know, have that

extra attention and

460

increase his academic record.

461

When my father got a job in Australia, we then had to go to and move to Australia.

462

And my brother had about six weeks left of school.

463

So it was determined that, you know what, you've only got six weeks.

464

You're in a boarding school anyway.

465

Stay, do the six weeks and then come over.

466

Bought him a ticket.

467

He was coming.

468

Unfortunately, he went out to a party on the weekend with permission from my dad and he

was beaten up and killed.

469

in uh London.

470

And yes, so that was my first experience of trauma was my brother officially was murdered

by three other people on his way home from a party.

471

And and then I think as well to your point earlier about trauma, you know, that's a a big

tea trauma.

472

But then I've been writing a book about my whole memoir and I remembered that no one told

me that my brother was killed.

473

I I heard them talking about it because

474

Back then, you know, in the 1980s, there wasn't an awareness around children and what you

tell them and what you don't tell them and should they be present during this environment

475

and things like that.

476

So, you know, I learned, and this is where I originally started to learn social behavior

and human behavior, and I can calibrate people.

477

I can tell when someone's, you know, like when their skin kind of gets different.

478

I can tell when.

479

you know, they they swallow differently or their blink rate changes.

480

And I think that that comes from having trauma by hearing that my brother had been killed

but not being told.

481

And having to watch what was going on to decipher, you know, the details of that.

482

So there's that.

483

And then my sister was born with cystic fibrosis, which is a lung disease.

484

And essentially you have like Swiss cheese lungs.

485

So she was sick

486

my entire life, which also meant that my parents went from grieving their son to now

grieving their living child that was only supposed to make it to ten.

487

She then died three weeks before her 21st birthday.

488

And she died the day before my birthday.

489

And so that was the the second one.

490

After that, I had had various what I would call more normal traumas.

491

So

492

You know, my first husband cheated on me, I got divorced.

493

Um, you know, I then, you know, like you have redundancies, financial issues.

494

So I've had all of those as well.

495

I just want to make a point that, you know, it trauma doesn't always have to be these

massive things.

496

You can have all these other things that happen as well.

497

And then my I met my husband, which is my second husband, which is amazing, and we had two

children.

498

My eldest was assaulted at daycare.

499

when she was two.

500

And so that was an issue.

501

Unfortunately, probably due to that incident, she ended up with a personality disorder,

which I won't go into just for her benefit, but her brain couldn't figure out how to cope.

502

And so it coped by creating this personality disorder.

503

Then we had, you know, like oh, I've got two children, they were both diagnosed.

504

with ASD on the s on the spectrum, autism spectrum.

505

and with ADHD and, you know, all the other bells and whistles that go with it.

506

Then my father died of leukemia.

507

And I I took that one, that was a big blow for me because I felt that my father was me.

508

Like we were, you know, I was a direct, I mean, I know I was

509

technically and medically a direct descendant of his, but I felt like we were the same

person.

510

I was just a female version of him.

511

So and I remember saying to my husband when my dad was dying, you know, you do realize

that when he dies, my whole identity will change.

512

So that really took a like that that rocked my world.

513

That took more work than some of the previous issues that I'd had, which sounds ridiculous

because some of them were, you know, feasibly bigger.

514

But I think that put out how to cope, how to cope, how to cope, and then something about

this one, maybe it was the accumulation, I don't know, but something about this one sort

515

of unraveled me more.

516

And then in I think it was two thousand and eighteen, I had a stroke.

517

Got.

518

My stroke was less physical and more cognitive.

519

So I spent two years, you know, trying to relearn a lot.

520

It mostly affected my memory and my word retrieval.

521

And I still have issues today.

522

Even in my role at work, I keep copious notes.

523

I have all these systems, you know, what I call scaffolding in place so that um I don't

feel like I am operating at

524

less capacity than I'm able.

525

And I'm sure there's others that I've forgotten.

526

Well, part of my role actually, two of my colleagues at two separate workplaces committed

suicide.

527

So I was the crisis responder for both of those.

528

You know, giving advice to leadership and also helping, you know, the the other colleagues

go through that process.

529

I also dealt with the Bondi stabbing.

530

And more recently the Bondi Shooting.

531

And I currently work in domestic violence as the state manager for New South Wales.

532

to say the least.

533

And and what other the Bondi I one of them rings a bell, the Bondi stabbing potentially.

534

What what were they?

535

So with the Bondi stabbing, there was a gentleman who I think he was schizophrenic and not

on his meds.

536

He'd moved to Australia and he didn't have a new doctor, I think, was the the lowdown.

537

But he went through a shopping center with a knife and he killed and stabbed quite a few

people.

538

But the problem that we specifically or that I had to deal with was that the staff that I

had in the Loxitan store.

539

They were right out the front and saw him stab the baby that was killed.

540

So there was like an eight month old baby that he stabbed.

541

And they saw that.

542

And so I had to not only deal with them.

543

So they ran into the store and they had to lock themselves in the back room.

544

And I was on the phone to them talking them through it.

545

And the door didn't have a lock in this particular instance.

546

And it was all very sort of chaotic.

547

And then obviously there's the aftermath as well.

548

So after the police came in and

549

got everyone to safety.

550

You know, we've got these young girls who are, you know, mostly sort of around the age of

twenty one to twenty four.

551

A lot of them don't have family in Australia.

552

And so that was, you know, that added layers to it as well.

553

Cool.

554

Yeah.

555

God.

556

And and that's like a different form of PTSD or potential PTSD, isn't it?

557

Because that's more of a that's an exposure to like evil, I guess.

558

And that's a encounter with malevolence and evil, isn't it?

559

And and how how do you go about 'cause obviously there's there's two forms of potential

like traumatic exposure.

560

One is just like unluck, just misfortune.

561

So as you as you said

562

someone gets diagnosed with an illness, then incurable illness, it's just just misfortune.

563

And then there's other which is when someone is treated atrociously or is exposed to

someone who truly wants to harm them and or harm someone else.

564

And you have to witness that human side, the capacity which people most of the time don't

come into count encounter with, don't come into contact with.

565

So it would be like a exposure to the shadow from a Jungian point of view.

566

How did you walk those girls through that that whole

567

think Yeah.

568

Look, it's I mean, it is very difficult.

569

I think that ultimately I probably relied on a lot of my previous training, you know,

simple things like emotional coaching.

570

Like emotional coaching is when you essentially hear them out and validate what they're

feeling.

571

You don't give them advice, you don't direct them in any way, you just hear them and

repeat that you've heard what they've said so that they feel heard.

572

Um

573

You know, obviously we had to offer them, we have a thing in Australia called an EAP,

which is an employee assistance program.

574

So counselors come on to the system.

575

You know, talking just talking them through it, calling them, making sure that they're

okay, using those NLP and psychology skills that I have.

576

But then also talking to leadership and managing leadership's expectations of how to

manage and how to handle it, because you know, a lot of

577

And this is no shade on leaders, but a lot of leaders don't have those learned people

skills.

578

You know, yes, they have people skills maybe in managing people, but not necessarily in

those kind of situations.

579

So that was a lot of the role as well.

580

That was where did that occur?

581

the s the Bondi stabbing.

582

Gosh, that must have been so what are we, twenty twenty six now.

583

So maybe twenty twenty three or twenty four?

584

Okay, okay.

585

So relatively recently, which makes sense why why I remember I just go back to obviously

we I went off a bit course of that off a off track a bit.

586

But going back to the death of your your father, I was thinking and you you were sort of

saying how from a objective point of view that was potentially less of a trauma than some

587

of the other things that occurred in your life.

588

I feel like maybe a lot of the strength that you had derived from your those awful

experiences would have been

589

We say like there's something about the father from a sort of metaphorical point of view,

which is is so Jung, for instance, said that I think he said an individual can only become

590

I think actually he said a man can only become a man once after the death of his father.

591

Although Freud said a man can only truly become a man after the death of his father.

592

And Jung said yes, but the death can be symbolic.

593

So there's a a symbolic death of what the f what the the father role represents.

594

And maybe you had a lot of your strength had come from constructing that metaphorical

father akin to your own father.

595

So the death of your actual father, maybe subconsciously or sort of psychologically,

potentially you'll think you thought or not consciously, but that means the death of

596

everything that I've built my strength around.

597

And do you does that I mean that's a weird sort of way of going to my mind?

598

I think it's

599

for me specifically, I think there was a level of identity attached to it.

600

So it wasn't necessarily, you know, I've lost everything that I've built my life around or

I've lost sort of his strength or any of that kind of stuff.

601

It was more I knew who I was because of him.

602

And so when he was no longer here, well then who the hell was I?

603

You know, what did that mean to me?

604

You know, apart from just missing him.

605

But

606

Who did that make me?

607

You know?

608

And I remember actually this is a good example of the reframing.

609

I remember walking down the street.

610

I kept waking up at like four o'clock in the morning and I just couldn't go back to sleep

after he'd passed.

611

And so I'd walk the streets and cry, literally walk the streets, tears flooding down my

face.

612

And I remember I kept saying to myself one day, you know, who am I without him?

613

Like who am I without him?

614

And I just kept saying, who am I without him?

615

And then I don't know, maybe the NLP training clicked in, but my question changed from who

am I without him to who am I because of him?

616

And all of a sudden I was like, Do you know what?

617

He was this amazing person and he was this and that and da-da-da-da-da.

618

And, you know, I have that DNA.

619

I can do that.

620

And so it's sort of it's like that one percent, you know, it just kicks you out of the

spiral into

621

All right, I'm not okay, but I'm also not drowning anybody.

622

I think that's a really and I empathize with the people who have parents or family members

who they exceptionally dislike and have no attachment to because some of the times

623

something that can get me through a difficult situation is I look at my parents and my

family members and think, Look at what they've overcome, I am part of I'm a descendant of

624

them, so to speak.

625

So that that gives me courage and I often sort of empathise with people who have awful

parents, which

626

Unfortunately a lot of people do.

627

Does that relate to the one of the final things that I've once you change what it means to

you, you change what it fuels.

628

Exactly.

629

Okay.

630

It's the same, you know, it's the same as the situation with my daughter where I had a

completely different belief around it.

631

The same with my dad.

632

You know, how you think changes how you feel.

633

And then from there, it changes what you do now, you know.

634

So yeah, if you can if you can impact your thinking in a way that benefits you, then it's

a it's a ripple effect.

635

It just, you know, works from there.

636

Actually that's one question I was gonna ask.

637

When you when you sort of speak at corporate events, what sort of thing are there any

specific challenges that people want you to talk about that are plaguing corporate world

638

or is it

639

what I talk about, what I actually talk about is the invisible instructions that society

gives us, which we don't even realize they give us and that we adhere to.

640

So we actually what I call a playing small, where, you know, people will say things like,

I don't know, don't be too sensitive.

641

And that means it's not okay for you to be emotional.

642

And so you then pretend that you're not.

643

Or

644

You know, you might be really clever and have this amazing idea and come in and say, my

God, I've had this amazing idea.

645

And someone will say, Listen, no one likes no one likes a bad, you know, you're a bragger.

646

All of these tiny sort of social rules impact how we show up in the world.

647

And it diminishes our value of, you know, our superpower, what we bring to the table.

648

And so I talk about, you know, how those those invisible instructions.

649

impact us and our behavior.

650

And if we can see them, and it's the same thing I said before, if you can just see the

issue and recognize yourself in that moment, then you have choice.

651

You can still choose to keep it to yourself or you can choose, no, actually what I'm

saying is valuable and therefore, you know, I'm going to continue.