Shownotes
Episode Summary
Founder and CEO of VegBed, Albert Lin joins the show today to share the work he’s doing to create a better and easier way to use growing medium for the hydroponic community. Albert speaks to his experience as an early stage startup operations expert, the entrepreneurial mindset he has cultivated and the biggest piece of advice he would give to founders.
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Key Takeaways
07:13 – Harry welcomes back Founder of Vegbed, Albert Lin, to share his vertical farming origin story
14:40 – A values-based founder and why Agriculture is such a passion for Albert
18:38 – Going All-In: Albert’s entrepreneurial mindset
23:17 – The biggest piece of advice Albert would give to founders
26:37 – The origin story of VegBed, the connection to rockwool, and what consumers VegBed targets
33:32 – Other areas of vertical farming Albert is looking to expand VegBed and the biggest opportunity Albert sees
38:34 – Mentors who have been critical to Albert’s success
39:57 – A tough question Albert has had to ask himself recently
43:13 – An ask Albert has for the audience
43:56 – Harry thanks Albert for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can follow VegBed
Tweetable Quotes
“A lot of the issues I think we’re having with health in the U.S. and society and global warming can be addressed in a multifaceted way through Agriculture.” (15:03) (Albert)
“For me, I felt like it would be a disservice to [my parents], who came to this country for a better life for my sister and myself, just to do a nine-to-five job.” (19:27) (Albert)
“One of the failures that happens I think with most entrepreneurs is they think if they build it people will come. And that’s the number one mistake. They spend all this time and money. They build this thing; they create this product. And then nobody wants it, or downloads it, or buys it.” (23:41) (Albert)
“So bamboo itself, when you look at the growth chart, it grows exponentially faster as time grows on. I think within the first month it grows six to twelve inches a day and then after one month it starts growing more than a foot a day.” (32:27) (Albert)
“Ninety-eight percent of the lettuce that’s grown in the U.S. is grown in California or Arizona. And, when you think of it, does it really have to be that way?” (42:28) (Albert)
Resources Mentioned
Albert’s Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertlin17/
Albert’s Email – [email protected]
Vegbed – https://www.vegbed.com/
Vegbed Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/vegbed/
Vegbed YouTube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUntJYZh_PPof2csWmqXEdw/featured
Vegbed Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/vegbed
Green Tech – https://www.greentech.nl/
Link Tree – https://linktr.ee/
Books Mentioned:
The Mom Test – https://www.momtestbook.com/
Sponsor Info
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
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Speaker:igrownews.com/precision. The one
Speaker:biggest piece of advice I could give is
Speaker:the— one of the failures that happens, I think, with most entrepreneurs is that they,
Speaker:they think if they build it, people will come. And that's the number one mistake
Speaker:where they had, oh, this is an awesome idea, like everyone's gonna love it, like,
Speaker:yeah, this person told me they love it, and they spent all this time, spent
Speaker:all this money, they build this thing, they create this product, this website, this software
Speaker:app or whatever, and then nobody wants it or nobody downloads it or nobody buys
Speaker:it. So I think in the beginning, Really figure out
Speaker:whether or not your customer actually wants that. Talk to people. Like, it doesn't cost
Speaker:money to interview someone. Just ask them what their pain points are.
Speaker:Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations with
Speaker:fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech visionaries.
Speaker:Join us every week as we dive deep into the world of vertical farming
Speaker:with your host, Harry Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast,
Speaker:Season 5. Welcome back. First-time listeners, if you are looking
Speaker:for a show where we interview fascinating CEOs and founders of the leading vertical
Speaker:farming companies from around the world, then you're in the right place.
Speaker:I'm your host, Harry Duran. In case you missed last episode, we spoke to
Speaker:founder and CEO of Harvests, Ali Danyali. Ali and I connected
Speaker:at the Indoor AgTech NYC conference a couple of months ago,
Speaker:and we had a great conversation where he shared his background in engineering, the
Speaker:origin story of Harvests, and the importance of supporting and promoting small
Speaker:farming both domestically and abroad. It's really interesting what
Speaker:Ali has done with his indoor farming as a service model, and I think we're
Speaker:going to be hearing more about him. This week I have the pleasure of speaking
Speaker:with founder and CEO of VegBed, Albert Lin. He joins the show today to share
Speaker:the work he's doing to create a better and easier way to use a growing
Speaker:medium for the hydroponic community. As an innovative entrepreneur,
Speaker:this one is especially helpful for those that are just getting started with their idea
Speaker:and their companies in this agtech space, and we had a really good conversation
Speaker:which I'm excited to share with you. If you enjoyed this episode or past episodes,
Speaker:I'd love it if you leave a rating and review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.
Speaker:I'd love to read yours out next. Before we jump into this uninterrupted
Speaker:interview with Albert, a couple of words from the folks that support the show.
Speaker:This episode is brought to you by Vertical Farming Weekly newsletter. Each week, our team
Speaker:member Noah brings you the latest and greatest in the world of vertical farming.
Speaker:Sign up today at verticalfarmingweekly.com.
Speaker:Albert Lin, founder at VegVed, thank you for joining us.
Speaker:joining me on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me, Harry.
Speaker:Excited to be here. Where are you calling in from
Speaker:right now? In northern New Jersey. Okay, I just
Speaker:got back from the East Coast. I was at Indoor Icon
Speaker:NYC for 2 days on Thursday and Friday
Speaker:in Brooklyn. I was at the Marriott, and it's my— now my
Speaker:second indoor farming conference, and I got to
Speaker:It was nice 'cause it was single track, so there was nothing to, you know,
Speaker:normally sometimes, or sometimes when you go to a conference, you, you're sort of trying
Speaker:to decide which sessions to attend. And then this was nice because they,
Speaker:they did a really good job. So shout out to the organizers. Have you been
Speaker:to any of the indoor farming conferences yet? I was actually at Green Tech the
Speaker:previous week. Okay. And it was exactly what you were just
Speaker:describing where it's just such a massive event. There's like 4 different
Speaker:areas of speaking going on, so it's very hard to figure out which one you
Speaker:wanna go to. Yeah, but it was good. It was a good event. Uh, unfortunately
Speaker:I caught COVID there, but, uh, oh no. Yeah, but so far
Speaker:the symptoms have been pretty mild. So yeah, it's a good event. And prior
Speaker:to that, were you a regular attendee of conferences for
Speaker:previous jobs? Actually, the— for in terms of ag,
Speaker:the Greentech in Amsterdam is the only one I've been to. I've been, I've been
Speaker:to that one twice, and I'm part of the NYC Ag
Speaker:Collective, which is a nonprofit here based out of NYC. We have NYC
Speaker:AgTech Week every year, so that's something that we organize, um,
Speaker:that I attend. And so for folks who haven't attended
Speaker:Greentech, where exactly was it hosted? And if you could tell me a
Speaker:little bit about it. Previously it was in Amsterdam
Speaker:once a year. Okay. And now I think they're doing a twice-a-year
Speaker:event, so it's usually once in Amsterdam and then also once
Speaker:in Mexico City. Yeah, nice. So yeah,
Speaker:usually it's like springtime Mexico and then the summertime one is in Amsterdam.
Speaker:Yeah. So for the benefit of listener, can you rewind the clock
Speaker:a little bit? And, uh, you know, I'm just curious where,
Speaker:where you grew up and, you know, when you headed into school, if you
Speaker:were— if you knew at that time that what you were studying would eventually lead
Speaker:you to the path you're on now. Yeah, like my schooling and how I grew
Speaker:up had zero relation to agriculture or anything that I'm doing now.
Speaker:I grew up in Forest Hills, New York. My parents still live in
Speaker:the, in the same childhood house that I grew up in. Nice. Went to elementary
Speaker:school there, ended up going to Carnegie Mellon to get
Speaker:my bachelor's in mechanical engineering, but ended up going into finance
Speaker:after college and then started working at a couple of startups.
Speaker:And then after a couple of stints at some early-stage startups that
Speaker:kind of got my You know, got my brain flowing through like the entrepreneurial
Speaker:mindset, and that, that was kind of how this whole thing started.
Speaker:Yeah, you had some early experience with, uh, was it
Speaker:FarmStalk? Yeah, at the time, this was the time when I first
Speaker:started getting into hydroponics, and I got introduced to a friend of a
Speaker:friend who was starting— was trying to start an indoor farm in
Speaker:upstate New York. So we got connected, they asked me to join the team, and
Speaker:there was about 6 of us. And we were trying to implement like
Speaker:a rotating vertical rack system
Speaker:in upstate New York. Worked on that project for about 9 months. But
Speaker:the main issue with that was like we had all the pieces in place in
Speaker:terms of like the technology, the land, the architect, the survey,
Speaker:all that. But the bulk of the funding, which was to
Speaker:build the greenhouse, was like we were looking for like $2.5 million. Just
Speaker:couldn't get any VCs to be lead investor on that. In retrospect, I
Speaker:understand where they're coming from because at the time, I was still
Speaker:considering myself a hobbyist. And I was the one with the most knowledge as a
Speaker:hobbyist on the team. Everybody else was from like marketing backgrounds, from like,
Speaker:you know, investment banking. Nobody actually had commercial farming experience. So, I could
Speaker:see the hesitation there, but everyone was really passionate about the project. But I don't
Speaker:think that was enough for them to dip their toes into that.
Speaker:What was it about that project that sort of piqued your interest and
Speaker:made you feel like it's something you wanted to give it a shot? I think,
Speaker:'cause at the time, vertical farming, like, the energy cost was still
Speaker:a very big part of the equation. People were still trying to figure that out.
Speaker:And so, the architect that we were working with, his
Speaker:background is in, like, sustainable structures and greenhouses, and
Speaker:he actually created his own greenhouse in upstate New York and
Speaker:claims it to be, like, a net-zero greenhouse. So, we were
Speaker:trying to implement some of his techniques, designs into our greenhouse. And so, that was
Speaker:kind of what piqued me where it was like, all right, we're gonna keep the
Speaker:glass model, so that we don't have to use LEDs
Speaker:24/7. But then, I think it's a
Speaker:difficult model because I think the industry is either— you're either a 2D
Speaker:flat greenhouse or you're an indoor vertical 100%
Speaker:LED light. It's very rare to see somebody try to
Speaker:implement a vertical greenhouse type system. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker:difficulties to it, but that was kind of what piqued me because not many people
Speaker:were doing that at the time. What would you say was your biggest takeaway Your
Speaker:lesson learned, whether it was like what to do or what not to do?
Speaker:Yeah, I think the biggest thing would have probably
Speaker:been just trying to go too big before we
Speaker:even did a small-scale pilot, right? Like, I think it would
Speaker:have been a lot easier if we just tried to raise $50,000 to
Speaker:$100,000, kind of like friends and family round, and then build,
Speaker:build like a small, like 2,000-3,000 square foot test pilot project, working prototype, and
Speaker:just see how that worked. Yeah, like a prototype thing. Because trying to go full
Speaker:scale, like 40,000, 50,000 square feet, and none of us have done it before, it
Speaker:was just too much of a gap. And so after that, you had a short
Speaker:stint at a company called Homebell, and then you went on to Forkable, which I
Speaker:imagine— was there any helpful lessons learned from
Speaker:the time spent at those 2 companies? Not really. I mean, they're
Speaker:both like early-stage startups. Yeah. Where I
Speaker:was, you know, one of the first 10 to 20 people hired at the
Speaker:company. I guess the only thing I guess would be
Speaker:advantage of taking away from early-stage startup is like you just have to be able
Speaker:to do everything. Like if you don't really get hired to just do one role,
Speaker:though you do get hired to do one role, but then when you're actually in
Speaker:it, you're juggling like 5 different things at the same time. So it gives you
Speaker:a lot of exposure to like how to get something from 0 to 1 and
Speaker:build stuff from scratch, which definitely helped with getting
Speaker:BedJet off the ground and building from scratch. which I started as a
Speaker:side project while I was working full-time. Yeah. And so, um,
Speaker:obviously this idea of the startup mentality, and I'm sure some of those
Speaker:lessons, whether you realize you were learning them at the time, probably came back to
Speaker:you and were helpful. But it— what's interesting is after
Speaker:you left Forkable, you, you went back into finance, you went back
Speaker:into fintech. Yeah, it was a fintech
Speaker:company, you know, fast-growing kind of very altruistic, you
Speaker:know, B Corp trying to just help out the underserved
Speaker:community with, um, like financial products in terms of like small personal loans and
Speaker:stuff that, uh, they wouldn't be able to get at traditional banks or lenders.
Speaker:So the idea piqued my interest and, uh, you know, the role
Speaker:gave me a lot of responsibility. So that's kind of how I ended up. So
Speaker:I was, I wasn't really agnostic, I was industry agnostic
Speaker:with like the companies that I worked at, but I specifically going for
Speaker:companies that were like just at the cusp of kind of getting all the
Speaker:operations and stuff kind of honed out and then just taking it to the next
Speaker:level. So kind of like jumping in there and getting all that set up for
Speaker:them. It seems like there's also a through line
Speaker:of working for companies that are doing good for the world. And
Speaker:I'm wondering if that's a value or something that was, you know,
Speaker:you were taught when you were younger. Is that something that comes from your family
Speaker:or where do you think that drive comes from? That's a really good question, yeah.
Speaker:I don't know, I guess it's funny because when I look at
Speaker:vertical farming and just agriculture in general, it's like
Speaker:a lot of the issues I think we have with just health in the
Speaker:US and just society and global warming, it can be addressed
Speaker:like in a multifaceted way with agriculture. And so, I guess for
Speaker:me doing this, people
Speaker:might not make the connection, but it's like, I hope ultimately part of
Speaker:vertical farming is to have Americans eat healthier. You know, like, I
Speaker:don't know if that will happen, but I'm hoping that down the line that
Speaker:can address that issue and just get vegetables to be more
Speaker:accessible to everybody. You know, I think main reason is like a lot of people
Speaker:eat unhealthy just because it's easy and it's cheap and that's what they have access
Speaker:to. And they don't really have that, you know, not everybody can afford a $17
Speaker:salad at Sweetgreen. Yeah. So it's like, yeah,
Speaker:why is that— this idea of making it more accessible to a wider
Speaker:audience, is that— why is that important for you? Yeah, I've read a lot about
Speaker:just the food industry, you know, the meat industry, the ag industry, like
Speaker:the corn industry, and watched a lot of documentaries, some biased, some
Speaker:not. But yeah, it's just like, I think, uh,
Speaker:like I mentioned, it's a lot of problems that, uh, I think we can solve
Speaker:based off of from agriculture itself. especially from the health
Speaker:standpoint. I've, especially the past 2 years with COVID and, you
Speaker:know, I've had a lot of, you know, deaths around me.
Speaker:And so it's kind of put things into perspective for me in terms of
Speaker:health and just kind of not taking things for granted. So I've
Speaker:definitely been more conscious about what I eat, how I eat, stuff like
Speaker:that. But yeah, and I was like, and I don't want myself to only,
Speaker:you know, ourselves to have access to that. I feel like, you know, a lot
Speaker:of underserved communities aren't able to do that. So it would be nice for them
Speaker:to also have the option of eating healthy and not just, you know, one
Speaker:choice of fast food kind of situation. Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I
Speaker:grew up also just outside the city in Yonkers, New York, and I've
Speaker:lived in the city. I've lived in Brooklyn, in East Village, Lower East Side.
Speaker:And so really of any city probably in
Speaker:the United States, New York is the closest to my heart, New
Speaker:York City. And I've lived in LA as well. But it is, you're consciously
Speaker:aware of the convenience of like a bodega
Speaker:like a block away, but then the realization that fresh food
Speaker:is really hard to find, you know. And, and like
Speaker:the sad lettuce that's in a bodega probably doesn't compare, you know,
Speaker:to what, what, you know, realize is available to just even now. I
Speaker:live in Minneapolis now and we have a backyard and
Speaker:we're, we're planting lettuce, kale, cucumbers,
Speaker:tomatoes. And, and as it starts to fruit, you know, you're picking it and
Speaker:eating it fresh off the vine. And then you just, you know, we've lost that
Speaker:ability to understand, you know, that connection of
Speaker:exactly where our food comes from. And even you talked about, you know, the
Speaker:meat industry, the factory farming, you know, where my partner and I mostly
Speaker:pescatarian because I think people, there's a disconnect. And especially if you've grown up,
Speaker:have never had, you know, access to fresh food. One of the speakers at
Speaker:the conference was Stephen from Green Bronx Machine. who, if
Speaker:you've ever seen him speak, his energy is like completely off the charts.
Speaker:And we're gonna have him on the show. He's done such good work in just
Speaker:educating inner-city kids. And, you know, he told a story
Speaker:about how, I think one of the kids that was in the program, they, you
Speaker:know, they grew lettuce and they had a salad, and the kid's like, well, this
Speaker:is the first salad I've ever had. And, you know, just like, whoa, like, you
Speaker:know, just thinking about those things really puts things into perspective. So it's
Speaker:interesting. So I'm wondering As you're, you know, in that
Speaker:phase of your life, like, when does the idea start to percolate for you?
Speaker:You know, you obviously have been involved in farming
Speaker:projects, but when you think about starting your own company,
Speaker:presents its own set of challenges and probably a lot of internal questions.
Speaker:So talk a little bit about your mindset, just pre-starting,
Speaker:like what you're thinking and why you feel like the timing was right. Yeah, I
Speaker:was always very hesitant. I mean, just from coming from my background, my
Speaker:dad, he was an engineer, he worked at the same company
Speaker:for 30 years. Yeah. And that's kind of like the mindset that
Speaker:my parents were— my mom still pushes me to do.
Speaker:Yeah. You know, just find a job like your dad, work there for like 30
Speaker:years, retire. It's the immigrant— I was actually born in El Salvador. My parents came
Speaker:here as immigrants, and it's the, you know, get the secure job. Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I appreciate the thought and I
Speaker:understand where you're coming from, but then for me
Speaker:at least the past couple years, I felt like it would be a disservice to
Speaker:them to come to this country and have like— for a better life for my
Speaker:sister and myself, just to do, you know, just to do a 9-to-5
Speaker:job for the next 30 years of my life, right? That's like, that's not what
Speaker:they came here for me to do. Like, I should be striving to do better,
Speaker:you know, better and better, better. Sure. So that's kind of how my mentality is
Speaker:with— but it's tough because they're so— they're not against what I'm doing,
Speaker:But they're definitely just afraid of the instability of being an entrepreneur, you
Speaker:know, like especially because they're— Yeah, they're parents. They want
Speaker:us— they don't want you to— Like, what about health insurance? I'm like, I got
Speaker:that. Don't worry, my wife's working. I'm on her health insurance.
Speaker:But I think so. I wasn't your typical entrepreneur
Speaker:where like I just dropped everything and went full steam ahead on it. You know,
Speaker:I kind of slowly built this on the side and I wanted to get it
Speaker:to a point where I felt comfortable enough that, okay, I could quit my job
Speaker:and start pursuing this. I wanted to be in a good spot before I jumped
Speaker:in. And at the same time, you know, I
Speaker:had other projects that I tried prior to VegBed
Speaker:that either failed or I kind of gave up too early.
Speaker:And this was one project, an idea/business that I
Speaker:did not want to give up on, you know. And I don't think a lot
Speaker:of people talk about their failures too much, but I failed a lot. And
Speaker:I knew that if I continued to work full-time and I tried to grow this
Speaker:kind of slowly on the side, it would eventually just die off if I didn't
Speaker:spend more time on it. You know, it's like, it's very difficult to be a
Speaker:part-time entrepreneur. Like, nobody really does that. I
Speaker:mean, you can do it like to get it off the ground and start a
Speaker:little bit, but at some point you just have to, you just have to go
Speaker:for it. Um, and so I knew I would regret it for the rest of
Speaker:my life if VegBed failed only due to
Speaker:the lack of time I put into it, right?
Speaker:If it failed and I'm like, oh, I was only spending 4 hours a week,
Speaker:then that's on me. That's stupid. I— that, like, why did I do that? Like,
Speaker:if I put 110% effort in, I spent 80 hours a week on it, and
Speaker:it still failed, I'd be comfortably fine with that. Like, I gave it my all,
Speaker:I gave it a shot, and it didn't work out. But if it didn't work
Speaker:out just because I didn't put effort, then I would be very upset about that.
Speaker:Yeah, because if you think about the, the things that you have that
Speaker:are accessible to you when you're just getting started, you may not have all the
Speaker:funding, but, you know, you do have more time than money. So
Speaker:to your point, I think putting that time in and just putting that sweat equity
Speaker:in to just see if this is a valid idea. So how
Speaker:many— and I also want to call out the fact, you know, this idea of
Speaker:failing as an entrepreneur, it's something that I've had to learn myself
Speaker:and be more comfortable with, as those first couple are really painful
Speaker:and very expensive. And you just sit there on the floor, you
Speaker:know, wallowing and like, what did I do wrong? And then I think what you
Speaker:realize is just The more you understand that it's a— it's sort of
Speaker:the nature of entrepreneurship is you have to try a lot of things. And,
Speaker:you know, there's the example of Edison and how many different variations of the light
Speaker:bulb he tried before he, you know, he landed on the one that worked. And,
Speaker:you know, the Gretzky quote of, you know, you
Speaker:miss all the shots you don't take, you know. And so just, you know, the
Speaker:cliché stuff, but there's, you know, they're cliché, but there's a truth
Speaker:to all of them. And I think it's this idea of understanding how to get
Speaker:up faster. and how to recover and just figure out like, that didn't work, okay,
Speaker:let's try the next one. And you're iterating on the way. And then each one
Speaker:of those failures gives you like a little bit of a learning point to understand,
Speaker:okay, that's— now I understand why that didn't work. And you sort of
Speaker:compile those. But I don't think you have the successes later on in your life
Speaker:if you don't have those early failures, because, you know, you probably get a sense
Speaker:of false confidence. And I think the sooner you get— you scrape your knee,
Speaker:you know, and you get up, and then you realize, you know, it's like learning
Speaker:to ride a bike, right? You You're gonna fall down a couple times, but then
Speaker:you know what not to do and, uh, and how better to move
Speaker:forward. So how many different ideas
Speaker:did you have, or, you know, even if they wouldn't come to fruition, before you
Speaker:landed on the concept for a bit? And then we'll get into that specifically. Yeah,
Speaker:I just want to make one comment for anybody that's out there
Speaker:that's going to be listening that's trying to pursue entrepreneurship. The one
Speaker:biggest piece of advice I could give is The one of
Speaker:the failures that happens, I think, with most entrepreneurs is that they they think if
Speaker:they build it, people will come, and that's the number one mistake where they had
Speaker:oh this is an awesome idea like everyone's gonna love it like yeah this person
Speaker:told me they love it da da da and they spent all this time spent
Speaker:all this money they build this thing they create this product this website this
Speaker:software app or whatever and then nobody wants it or nobody downloads it or nobody
Speaker:buys it so I think in the beginning really figure out
Speaker:whether or not your customer actually wants that talk to people. Like, it doesn't cost
Speaker:money to interview someone. Just ask them for their opinion, ask them what their
Speaker:pain points are, right? And that's how you can get the best. Have you heard
Speaker:of the book, uh, The Mom Test? Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker:perfect. It's one of the— yeah, I took a— I was part of a fellowship
Speaker:with On Deck for no-code, and so one of the projects was to
Speaker:launch a site and— but also get users to it. And then to your
Speaker:point, this usability testing, like, speak to customers and saying like, Is
Speaker:this something you would use? Like, and I think the premise is like,
Speaker:make it so easy that your mom would understand it and she'd be able to
Speaker:explain the concept to it. But it's a really highly recommended— we'll make sure it's
Speaker:in the show notes— The Mom Test, uh, for new entrepreneurs. But back to your
Speaker:question about, uh, like some of the failures, they pretty much
Speaker:stem from what I, I just spoke about, about like thinking
Speaker:that these ideas were good and building something and then just realizing
Speaker:that Either it was too difficult to use or people just didn't
Speaker:want it. For example, one of the failures I had, I
Speaker:don't know if you know Linktree. Oh yeah, yeah. So basically, like,
Speaker:at the time I didn't know Linktree existed. I think they actually started
Speaker:launch like 6 months before we tried to essentially build the same thing.
Speaker:And so we knew that there was this problem with Instagram with the clickable link
Speaker:thing. And so me and my friend, he was a software engineer, we tried to
Speaker:build out basically what Linktree was doing. However, our
Speaker:version of it was a lot more difficult. In our minds, it was intuitive, right?
Speaker:Oh, it's like, oh yeah, you add this photo and then you add the link
Speaker:to your product, and then when they click it, it'll go to that. But it
Speaker:was just very— as soon as we like built it and had people
Speaker:test it, they were just super confused by it. They didn't know how to do
Speaker:this. Like, all the stuff we thought was intuitive was not intuitive,
Speaker:right? Yeah. And so people just didn't really, you know, a lot— like, maybe like
Speaker:50 people try it and some of them just gave us some feedback, but
Speaker:nobody actually used it. you know, long-term. And that kind of just
Speaker:fizzled out because I was working full-time at the time, and we were just
Speaker:like, man, people aren't going to use this, it's too complicated, we have to rethink
Speaker:this. And that kind of fizzled out. So that's a great example of just like,
Speaker:you know, we should have just talked to customers first before doing anything. But
Speaker:that was a lesson learned. Yeah, it's interesting that when you think about that
Speaker:tool, how deceptively easy— and
Speaker:it's just a simple concept, the fact that you're just creating, you know,
Speaker:alternative website. And I've been able to recreate that exact functionality
Speaker:by using Notion, which is a free tool. And just like you create a page
Speaker:and just put a link to it. Yeah, it's really— yeah, but
Speaker:it's a— it's a— Linktree is a big company now and it's doing a lot
Speaker:of things. And it's sometimes you just need to solve a very simple pain point.
Speaker:So talk to me, how did you arrive at VegBed? And for the benefit of
Speaker:listener, also explain what, what it is and, and the idea behind
Speaker:it. Yeah, sure. So after Farmstock parted
Speaker:ways, I still wanted to be in
Speaker:the agriculture industry in some form, and I wanted to
Speaker:start a company where I wouldn't need to raise $2.5 million,
Speaker:that I knew I could bootstrap. And I think
Speaker:most people that start into hydroponics and indoor farming
Speaker:can agree that the first thing that they experience is
Speaker:using rockwool, which is a great medium, works well,
Speaker:it's cheap, it's pretty much been the industry standard for like 50 years.
Speaker:But I felt that there could be a better way to grow plants,
Speaker:especially since rockwool is, you know, not sustainable. It's a
Speaker:molten glass rock, essentially. For those new to actual even
Speaker:indoor farming, can you explain just even that? Yeah,
Speaker:yeah. Oh yeah, sure. Oh yeah, for those that are new,
Speaker:rockwool is essentially this stoned wool
Speaker:that is used to germinate and grow plants.
Speaker:It's usually sold in a cube form, and it's made from,
Speaker:I think, molten basalt rock that's superheated to a couple thousand
Speaker:degrees, and then it's spun into this really fine
Speaker:kind of yarn. So, it's essentially glass fibers.
Speaker:So, it's utilized in home insulation, and that's kind of, I think,
Speaker:why it's been so heavily used and so cheap because
Speaker:it's utilized in other applications. So it's so prominent
Speaker:in the housing market. Do you know the story behind it? I'm curious if it
Speaker:was just one of those things where there was like, you know how these all
Speaker:start? There's like excess supply of a product and people are like, where else could
Speaker:we use this? Exactly. That's probably— I don't know the story
Speaker:behind how Rockwool got involved in hydroponics, but I could
Speaker:totally see that happening where it's like this thing absorbs water.
Speaker:Yeah, like the industry drives it. They're like, it was probably like a waste product
Speaker:or something like that. Exactly. So, so
Speaker:it's interesting because I'm curious and I always like to
Speaker:love the entrepreneurial mindset. And so you see that there's rockwool
Speaker:being used and you— but you also feel like there's an
Speaker:opportunity to improve it. Yes. I think the main
Speaker:reason was because at the time when I was
Speaker:learning about vertical farming, indoor farming, pretty much every company
Speaker:touts about, oh, we use 90% less water, we use like
Speaker:90% electricity, 99% less land, and all these kind of kind
Speaker:of sustainable growing methods, but they never ever, you know, they never
Speaker:talked about the downstream waste. Like, what do they do with the rockwool? They just
Speaker:toss it, right? It doesn't degrade. So, but that's never discussed, right?
Speaker:Whenever you look at the stats of a website of a vertical farm, they're always
Speaker:talking about the water saving, the land saving, energy savings, but they never talk about
Speaker:the waste. I will give a shout out to— I think it was— I spoke
Speaker:to Andrew, who's the chief— I think he's the innovation
Speaker:officer at IGS. And he was
Speaker:talking about this, like, sort of like this dirty little secret of vertical farming. And
Speaker:so, I think might be interesting. I'm gonna have him come
Speaker:on and just specifically talk about waste because I want us to talk about, you
Speaker:know, the good and the bad and the stuff that— where there is room for
Speaker:improvement. So, but yeah, definitely continue. Yeah, I'm curious
Speaker:about that as well. But yeah, the other thing I actually just learned while I
Speaker:was at Greentech is that in the Netherlands and Germany,
Speaker:if you use ruffle in your farms, you actually have to pay a fee to
Speaker:dispose of it. So they're kind of cracking down on that now. Yeah. Okay. Which
Speaker:bodes well for the industry. I mean, I think it's about time. So that's kind
Speaker:of like the whole vision for VegBed was to try to shift the industry away
Speaker:from using rockwool. And so it's talking about
Speaker:entrepreneur mindset and trying a bunch of different things. How many different
Speaker:iterations did you go through? Oh man. So yeah, VegBed is
Speaker:right now our core product is the bamboo fiber microgreen mat.
Speaker:Initially, the first product I had was a grow cube, kind of like rockwool,
Speaker:but it was made out of foam. However, obviously it's
Speaker:not sustainable because it's made out of foam. It worked well, like people liked it,
Speaker:but then after talking to customers, they were like, do you have a more sustainable
Speaker:option other than foam? And so that evolved kind of
Speaker:into what we have today where— I also, prior to the
Speaker:bamboo mat, I had a foam mat that I made for a customer and went
Speaker:through multiple iterations with him on that. And then finally,
Speaker:customer just kept asking for a more sustainable option. So that's how I shifted
Speaker:over, pivoted to And so how big is
Speaker:the team now and who are you working with? It's just me and I have
Speaker:someone helping me with like biz dev and marketing. Okay. A couple of
Speaker:contractors that I've had to help out with like web design and stuff like that.
Speaker:Yeah, mainly me. And what's been the early adoption by
Speaker:companies who, to the extent that you can talk about it, who are you working
Speaker:with or the types of companies you're working with? Yeah, a couple of people
Speaker:have NDAs with, but Mainly, so right now
Speaker:on the B2B retail side, we're offered on Trulieve
Speaker:Market and Hort Americas. Currently working with 2 other
Speaker:distributor retailers now in the US to carry the product. But
Speaker:most of the direct-to-consumer customers and the farmers I work with,
Speaker:they're usually, I would say, small to
Speaker:mid-sized farms that grow in their local market, probably like
Speaker:200 to 300 trays a week of microgreens, and
Speaker:they'll usually sell at farmers markets or
Speaker:restaurants and like the local supermarkets. So that's
Speaker:like the core of the customer right now. Not too many individual hobbyists,
Speaker:but mainly like small, middle-sized farms, microgreen farmers. And from
Speaker:a sustainability perspective, like, how do you explain it to folks how it's
Speaker:different than the rockwool? And what does that look like? And how— I mean,
Speaker:does it get into the specifics of like how fast it decomposes? Yeah,
Speaker:so for, I mean, bamboo itself, when you look at
Speaker:the growth chart of bamboo, it grows exponentially
Speaker:faster as time goes on. Even in the beginning, it grows really,
Speaker:really fast. Like, I think within the first month, it grows about like 6 to
Speaker:12 inches a day. After like 1 month, it starts growing like,
Speaker:you know, more than a foot a day. So, in terms of like sustainability, like
Speaker:when you chop one down, they grow like literally like weeds. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And the other thing, compared to hemp and some of the other products
Speaker:out there on the market, bamboo doesn't require a lot of
Speaker:resources or purposeful farming to grow them. They just
Speaker:kind of grow wild along the riverbeds, like in Southeast Asia. So,
Speaker:you don't have to actually mow down farmland to grow bamboo.
Speaker:It's just kind of wildly growing everywhere. So, definitely highly sustainable.
Speaker:In terms of biodegradability tests, I'm actually in the process of talking to a
Speaker:couple companies now to get like an official report. I've had customers
Speaker:throw it like in their compost bins. Okay. And stuff like that. But I want
Speaker:to kind of get like a more statistical analysis of like the time and everything
Speaker:like that. So that's in the works now. Yeah. So from a product perspective,
Speaker:you know, can you talk a little bit about what you're thinking about? Like, where
Speaker:are there opportunities for you to grow? And are there— is it specifically
Speaker:you think there are use cases that are still applicable in vertical farming
Speaker:that you could branch out to, or because of the nature of
Speaker:the materials, are there other opportunities for you to do some
Speaker:different product offerings? Yeah, I definitely am currently
Speaker:prototyping different forms of the product, mainly like
Speaker:a cube form. It's quite difficult though, because I
Speaker:don't want to add any foreign materials into the product,
Speaker:because right now it's just straight up bamboo fiber, which is basically
Speaker:tangled together with the mechanical process. So there's no glue or any binders in it,
Speaker:and I'm trying to stay away from that. But because of that, it's hard to
Speaker:create like a solid 3-dimensional structure out of it. So it's a
Speaker:challenge that I've been working on. So I'm working on some prototypes right now. Hopefully
Speaker:they work out. So that's kind of like the next evolution of this, getting into
Speaker:like a cube form so that it's more widely usable besides just microgreens.
Speaker:And then also like with tomato and larger crop production, they
Speaker:have like these big bags. Right now it's usually like a big, a big
Speaker:slab of rockwool, which is like kind of like 3 or 4 feet long and
Speaker:like 6 inches high. They'll use that for like tomato production, cucumber
Speaker:production, um, peppers and stuff like that. So getting a product
Speaker:like that out I think will be really beneficial because most of the pictures I
Speaker:see of like tomato and vine crop production is utilizing like big
Speaker:slabs of rockwool. I have no idea what they do with them afterwards. They probably
Speaker:just toss them. So that would, that would be great to to help shift
Speaker:that away. And then also, I think just in general, maybe like some sort of
Speaker:soil amendment or a competitor to
Speaker:maybe coco coir is— I think a lot of the— What's
Speaker:that, the coco coir? Coco coir. It's like, um, like
Speaker:the thrown away coconut husks that they use for as a growing medium. But a
Speaker:lot of the potting soil out there, I don't know if many people know, but
Speaker:it's predominantly composed of sphagnum peat moss which is pretty
Speaker:unsustainable product and grows, grows at the opposite
Speaker:rate of bamboo, usually like a few millimeters a year at the
Speaker:most. And a lot of the potting mixes are like 60-70% sphagnum peat moss.
Speaker:So I think there's opportunity there to kind of get a more
Speaker:sustainable soil, soil amendment on the market as well. Where
Speaker:do you see like the, I guess, the biggest opportunity or
Speaker:the biggest challenge for you as the, the founder and As the
Speaker:person who's wearing a lot of the hats in the business. So, you know,
Speaker:where do you want to focus your time so you have the most—
Speaker:you know, are you looking for new clients? Are you spending some time on
Speaker:innovation? Are you doubling down on the relationships you have already?
Speaker:So I'm just curious where your mind's at, and I'm sure every day when you
Speaker:wake up it's a different answer, but I'm curious, uh, what's top of
Speaker:mind for you now? Honestly, pretty much all the 3 things that you just listed
Speaker:out. are priority for me right now. Just expanding the business in terms of
Speaker:getting into more distribution, retail, getting a couple more commercial
Speaker:farms online would be great, and then just expanding
Speaker:the product line as well. I think of those the 2 main things that I'm
Speaker:going to be focusing on. The other thing that, you know, I'm not an expert
Speaker:in and I don't have a degree in is like material science, and I think
Speaker:finding somebody that is knowledgeable about materials and
Speaker:products to be able to help me kind of create these prototypes in the future
Speaker:I think would be very beneficial. Have you given any thought
Speaker:to any of the processes that you've put in place for how
Speaker:these are created or assembled and, and maybe
Speaker:applying for patents for any of them? Because there might be some opportunities for something
Speaker:that you're doing specifically with this combination of materials in this form. And I know
Speaker:that there's a cost associated obviously with that, but I, you know, one of the
Speaker:companies I advise in the podcasting space has done some similar
Speaker:work with— it's actually this, this company that we're using,
Speaker:Squadcast, but they've got some patents that we're eventually approved. It took a couple of
Speaker:years, but that's just something to kind of like, you know, get the ideas
Speaker:going to where there might be opportunities for you. Since this is,
Speaker:you know, you're relatively new in this space and using these materials, you might be
Speaker:doing it in a way that's new for the industry. Yeah, no, I'm totally
Speaker:open to that idea. At least with the new product
Speaker:development, I will look into that. Word of advice for anybody that's going out
Speaker:for patents, and I learned the hard way, is if you have
Speaker:an idea or a product and you intend on patenting it, don't talk
Speaker:about it or post photos or anything like that too early. Because once it's
Speaker:out in the ether of the internet, you have 2 years. And I didn't realize
Speaker:that you have this eminent domain of 2 years to— once it's out on the
Speaker:internet or in public, you got 2 years to patent it. And I had
Speaker:discussed and talked about VegBed early on on
Speaker:an Instagram post. And then when I finally decided, it was like right at the
Speaker:2-year cutoff mark. Yeah. And it was, yeah, the lawyer said it was too late.
Speaker:So, okay, that's a good lesson learned there. So in the future,
Speaker:just, uh, try to get the ball rolling as soon as you start discussing that
Speaker:product, or just don't talk about it until you're— until you talk to a lawyer.
Speaker:Words of advice. So as an entrepreneur and as someone who's worked
Speaker:with a, you know, I'm sure you've had different bosses and different mentors, you
Speaker:know, can you point to anyone that's been helpful for you along this journey? That,
Speaker:because I know a lot of times this can be a lonely road and You
Speaker:know, we're always looking for inspiration or people to motivate us or to help us
Speaker:learn so we don't make the same mistakes, you know, that other people have made.
Speaker:So, you know, have folks like that, anyone come to mind that have been helpful
Speaker:for you along this journey? That's a very good question. It's difficult, not like in
Speaker:terms of my previous roles. I don't think there was a direct— because
Speaker:naturally, like, I didn't want— I was very hesitant to allow any of my
Speaker:full-time jobs know that I was working on this other side because obviously they're going
Speaker:to think like, oh, you're overspending. more time in his, you know, side business than
Speaker:he has his work. So I've always kept it very under the radar. So not,
Speaker:not until like my previous job knew about it and they were supportive, but for
Speaker:the most part it was very kind of under the radar. So I didn't really
Speaker:was able to like discuss strategies or talk about, you know, like
Speaker:the entrepreneur mindset with these companies. Yeah. But I mean, the
Speaker:most help I have had so far is just this accelerator that I just
Speaker:finished this week, um, SLP program. It's been running
Speaker:for the past 6 months, but 30 other founders and
Speaker:entrepreneurs. And, you know, the whole network has been such a great resource to
Speaker:just be able to like talk to people in that same mindset, in that same
Speaker:state that you are. So that has been very, very helpful for sure. Very
Speaker:good. What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself
Speaker:recently? The last class we had for the accelerator was talking about
Speaker:stop, pivot, or persist, right? And I think that's a question that a lot
Speaker:of founders ask every single day when they wake up, right? Whether to
Speaker:stop, pivot, or persist. And it's— and the one thing that, you
Speaker:know, there that we've learned that, that they're trying to steal is like, it's okay
Speaker:to stop. Like, a lot of people just stop. It just doesn't work out, you
Speaker:know? There's nothing to be ashamed of, but you just have to kind of be
Speaker:honest with yourself and see where you want to take it and where you think
Speaker:it can go. And so for me, it's like just thinking about that every
Speaker:day. But I'm— I pivoted and persisted, so I'm I'm gonna
Speaker:stick with the persist for now. Yeah. And when people ask how
Speaker:things are going, I just say I'm persisting. That's kind of like our joke that
Speaker:we had when people— when non-founders and non-entrepreneurs ask you how you're
Speaker:doing, it's always like a very difficult kind of conversation. It's hard to
Speaker:explain to people who aren't in it, who haven't done it. It's like, well, you're
Speaker:doing what? Like, because to your earlier comment, you
Speaker:never turn it off. Like, I mean, I wake up and I think about all
Speaker:the things that I have to like get done in my business. And, you know,
Speaker:I think at some point, because if you're working on it day to day, then,
Speaker:then you have a business, you know, you don't have a lifestyle, you know. And
Speaker:so I think that I'm trying to move now to the point where I have—
Speaker:I can hire someone like to do the day to day so I can just
Speaker:focus on like the strategy, you know, and, and the sales.
Speaker:And I think that's— it's a continuum. And I think to people who are just
Speaker:comfortable and need that direct deposit in their bank account every,
Speaker:every 2 weeks, and then, you know, like I remember the first time that that
Speaker:didn't happen, I was like, okay, I'm an entrepreneur now and I gotta like,
Speaker:you know, fend for myself here. So it's, it's not for everyone. It's not for
Speaker:the faint-hearted either because, uh, definitely lots of ups and downs and some
Speaker:sleepless nights sometimes. But I think you'll find that as you
Speaker:go deeper into the community and, and you align with organizations like
Speaker:the, the incubator you were a part of, I think you'll find there's more like-minded
Speaker:folks in the space that you can talk to. You go to these conferences and
Speaker:I'm sure you can have some really inspiring conversations. And then when you feel like
Speaker:you're doing something that's contributing to this overall need we
Speaker:have to just, you know, make people more aware of, you know, just
Speaker:growing food and then the importance of, you know, having direct access to your
Speaker:food supply and not being impacted by the supply chain. And just
Speaker:all these things come to mind. This is some of the topics we've been covering
Speaker:on the show. So I think hopefully at the end of the day that inspires
Speaker:you to move forward with your mission. Yeah, totally. I think
Speaker:it's kind of back to what you're just saying with the talking about food and
Speaker:You know, 98% of the lettuce that's grown in the US is grown in
Speaker:California and Arizona. And when you think of it, it's like, does it really need
Speaker:to be that way? Like most industries, you want to have like a centralized
Speaker:kind of area where you create the product to get it as cheap as
Speaker:possible. But I think with food, having that model doesn't make
Speaker:sense. It should be decentralized where we just have more local hubs
Speaker:that create food and just deliver within a, you know, 400 or 500-mile radius as
Speaker:opposed to just one place growing, just shipping everywhere. Yeah. So,
Speaker:you know, I think— I'm hoping that vertical farming can lead to more,
Speaker:more of a decentralized hub for, for food production, so we don't have to rely
Speaker:on just one area of the nation to, to provide us with food. Reduces
Speaker:risk too, especially like E. coli, drought. Yeah, just a lot of things, you know.
Speaker:So as we wrap up, given the audience and, you know, the focus
Speaker:for this show on the players in the space and the people who are interested
Speaker:in the space, is there a specific ask that you have for
Speaker:my audience? If you have questions about
Speaker:entrepreneurship and just kind of like the journey, some of like,
Speaker:you know, I have many mistakes that I can offer and lessons
Speaker:learned. So I'm always happy to talk to other people in the space that are
Speaker:starting off or have questions or strategies, kind of
Speaker:what I went through. Also, if you're, you know, in farming,
Speaker:you're a producer, grower, retailer, distributor, also happy to talk to you.
Speaker:about the product and trying it out and getting you some samples, more than
Speaker:happy to do that. Well, thanks for reaching out, Albert. And, uh, it's,
Speaker:it's always interesting to get the gamut of experiences here from people who have
Speaker:been, you know, just getting into vertical farming, who, you know,
Speaker:early adopters into the space, or people that are just have an interest in this
Speaker:industry and now have, you know, figuring out what their specific specialty and
Speaker:niche is. And I'm glad, uh, we got to connect and we got to
Speaker:tell your story because I think they're all inspiring. So I appreciate you taking your
Speaker:time and sharing your story with my audience. Yeah, Harry, thanks. It was really fun.
Speaker:I love that we kind of dove really way back and kind of just
Speaker:talked about mindset and how I grew up. I think that's not a lot of
Speaker:people talk about. They just kind of talk about the company and that's, you know,
Speaker:that's kind of it. But I think getting a sense of more of a
Speaker:background of the person's history and mindset is definitely helpful
Speaker:and eye-opening for listeners as well. And inspiring. That's good. Yeah,
Speaker:that too. And so, uh, VegBed, vegbed.com for
Speaker:the website. Any other place you want to send folks to to connect with you,
Speaker:to learn more? Uh, yeah, email. I'm just Albert,
Speaker:[email protected]. Okay. And all the handles on Facebook, Instagram
Speaker:is all just VegBed, so pretty easy to find. All right,
Speaker:thanks again for your time, Albert. I appreciate it. Thanks, Eric. Thanks again to Albert
Speaker:of VegBed for coming on the show and sharing his story. Very inspiring to see
Speaker:what he's doing as an entrepreneur and how he saw need in this
Speaker:industry. I'm really excited to support him as he builds his network.
Speaker:Thanks again to our Season 5 title sponsor, Cultivated. If you're looking into a vertical
Speaker:farm and don't know where to start or which technology would suit your needs, reach
Speaker:out to them today. And best of all, their service is free because they work
Speaker:on behalf of their partners. Learn more at cultivated.com, and
Speaker:that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D dot com. Just leave
Speaker:out that last E. Podcast production and marketing provided by Fullcast. Learn more
Speaker:at fullcast.co about how a podcast may be helpful for your brand.
Speaker:And as a reminder, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and
Speaker:a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp. We'll be
Speaker:sure to read those out on future episodes. That's a wrap on season 5. I'm
Speaker:really excited to bring a whole new slate of interviews to you
Speaker:for season 6. I'll tease out a couple of the companies and the
Speaker:names that I've got lined up. We're looking at Allison Coff returning
Speaker:from IUNO, Philip Labrie from Green Forages, Henry
Speaker:Gordon-Smith makes a return visit to the show, Eric
Speaker:Eisel from GrowFlux, Dr. Christian Toma from
Speaker:Calera, Christos Raptiogiannis from CityCrop,
Speaker:and Amy Wu, who I connected with at Farms to Incubators.
Speaker:Until we meet again, here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To read the
Speaker:full show notes for this episode, which includes any links mentioned in the
Speaker:episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit Fertile
Speaker:There you can sign up for our email list to be
Speaker:notified when new episodes are published.
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