Understanding the Root Causes of the Drug Crisis: An Interview with Christina Dent

In this episode of the Prisoner's Pardon podcast, host Michi J welcomes Christina Dent, the founder of End It For Good, to discuss the misunderstood root causes of the drug and addiction problem in the U.S. Christina shares her personal journey from a typical upbringing in Mississippi to becoming an advocate for drug policy reform. Through her experience as a foster parent and interactions with individuals affected by addiction, Christina provides insights into why current solutions have failed and offers alternative approaches. She emphasizes the importance of looking deeper into addiction as a health issue, the inefficacies of incarceration, and potential solutions like legally regulated drug markets and the CRAFT model for family support. Christina's book 'Curious' aims to shed light on these issues and inspire change. Additional resources and offers, including free book copies and educational materials, are provided for listeners.

00:00 Understanding the Root Causes of Drug Problems

00:51 Introduction to the Guest: Christina Dent

02:26 Christina's Personal Journey into Drug Policy

06:30 The Impact of Criminalizing Drug Use

16:42 Exploring Solutions: Legal Regulation and Quality Control

22:48 Support Systems for Families and Individuals

34:06 Final Thoughts and Resources

Website:

https://enditforgood.com

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/EndItForGoodMS/

I think We have misunderstood,

, the root causes of a lot of

2

the problems we're facing.

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And we look deep enough

at those root causes.

4

We would get some very

different solutions.

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And I think that's why.

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We haven't seen the solutions we want.

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We have, overdoses at

its highest rates in U.

8

S.

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history.

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Illegal drug use has doubled

in the last 20 years.

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Overdose is now the leading cause

of accidental death in the U.

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S.

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So we have these increasing harms

instead of things getting better.

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I think We have

misunderstood, , the root causes

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Hello and welcome to a

prisoner's pardon podcast.

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This is Michi J and I am so glad to

have everyone listening today because

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we have a great guest here today.

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Her name is Christina Dent.

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Christina is a speaker author.

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She's the founder of the

organization End It For Good.

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You have to understand we're going

to talk about what this is all

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about, because you need to hear this.

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She's a mother.

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She's a wife.

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She's out of Jackson, Mississippi.

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That's not far from where

my people were raised.

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So that's interesting in itself.

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And she also, she has a BA.

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in biblical studies out

of Mississippi as well.

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It's.

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so great to have her here

because Christina is talking

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about drugs and addiction

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.

Welcome Christina.

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Thank you.

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I'm really excited to be with you.

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Oh, I am excited to, to

have you here as well.

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Now, Christina has been everywhere.

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You guys, I was looking at her bio.

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She has done Ted talks and she

has been in front of criminal

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justice, people, churches.

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She has been across the whole gamut.

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Now she is talking to

my audience, which is.

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Mostly, people that's been incarcerated,

their families, , as you all know, I

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have a brother that's incarcerated who

has been dealing with drugs as well.

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And I needed this

solution a long time ago.

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So I am so happy to have you here.

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So Christina, tell us more.

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It's something I miss about what you do.

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Yeah.

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So I'll give you the story

of how I got into it.

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Then we'll talk about what we do.

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So I grew up here in

Mississippi, uh, born and raised.

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I've lived in Mississippi my whole life.

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Um, and never was close to

drugs and addiction growing up.

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I didn't have that in my family.

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Um, my friends weren't using in

high school or anything like that.

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And so, uh, it really didn't Come close

to me until I was in my early thirties.

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Like you said, I have a degree in Bible.

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It just wasn't part of my,

wasn't part of my world.

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Um, you know, I was about as wild as

like popping popcorn and watching a movie

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on the weekend kind of thing like that.

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This wasn't my, it just, it

never came into my field.

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And so, um, I kind of got to my early

thirties with this idea that is a,

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uh, kind of the cultural idea of

people who use drugs are bad people.

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And so I had kind of just picked that up.

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I don't remember anybody ever

specifically saying that to me.

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It was just kind of what I picked

up from all the things around me is

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this is kind of a, um, you know, uh,

uh, low character or moral failing

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of some sort, that sort of thing.

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And so when, um, I was in my

early thirties, my husband

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and I became foster parents.

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And through that experience, we ended

up fostering a couple of different

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children, but one of them was a

little boy who was born, um, to his

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mom, who was struggling with a, um,

methamphetamine addiction at the time.

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And she wasn't able to, Beat that

addiction during her pregnancy.

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And so when he was born, he was

removed from her custody and put into

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foster care and she would have the

opportunity to regain custody of him.

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Um, and he was brought to our house

and we became his foster family.

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So he arrives and, um, after a couple

of days, uh, I take him to go visit his

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mom at the child welfare office for her

one hour visitation time in the little

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visitation room and I, um, Pull into the

parking lot of that office and I pop his

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car seat out of the car and turn around

in the parking lot and suddenly I'm

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Watch this woman come sprinting across

the parking lot towards me, weeping.

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And she runs over and just starts

kissing this baby and talking to him.

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And I'm still kind of awkwardly

holding his car seat, wondering

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what the heck is going on.

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Um, and this is his mom, Joanne.

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And this is the first time I've met her.

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I feel very suspicious, uh,

uncertain of You know, it's real.

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If she really loved him this much,

you know, I was using drugs while

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she was pregnant and just didn't

really know how to understand that.

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And so, you know, I did what I

think humans do when we encounter

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something that doesn't fit with what

we already believe, we kind of try to

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look for a reason to stop listening.

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Like, how could I, how could

I make my life easier by like

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disregarding this in some way?

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I'm looking for some reason

to say this isn't real.

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So I left him for his

hour of visitation time.

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I came back and picked him up and, um,

he was just laying on his mom's shoulder.

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She's just sitting there on that couch.

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She's not playing on

her phone or anything.

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She just is drinking in this moment

that she has with him, this one

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hour of time before she has to

leave for inpatient drug treatment.

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And he comes back to my house.

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Mhm.

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So they got there one hour, she went

to treatment, um, but then she would

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call me from there and she would ask

me to put her on speakerphone and

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she would sing to him over the phone.

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It was just this incredible

experience of her vulnerability.

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To let me see her as she really is

not to hold me at arm's length, not

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to push me away or to be combative

because that's a hard relationship.

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I thought, you know, some

random person has your child.

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Um, instead she just let me see her.

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And that was life changing for me because

I started to wrestle with, wait a second.

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I know we're putting women like her

in prison and men all the time for the

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exact same thing that she was doing.

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If she had been caught in possession

of that methamphetamine, um, she

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would have had a very different

outcome than what she was able to

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have because she was able to go to

treatment and she wasn't caught first.

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So I started wrestling with that

and really began this learning

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journey that ended up happening.

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Changing my mind completely about

how we could get the best outcomes

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related to drugs and addiction.

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That's everything from people like

Joanne that were struggling with an

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addiction, as well as everything from

how do we stop the overdose crisis?

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How do we reduce the amount

of crime that's related to

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that underground drug market?

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It's all wrapped up in this big

question about what are the best

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tools to use for drugs and addiction.

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And that's why I wrote the book.

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Curious is to take people on that learning

journey with me and to say, I think we

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have misunderstood, um, the root causes

of a lot of the problems we're facing.

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And we look deep enough

at those root causes.

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We would get some very

different solutions.

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And I think that's why.

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We haven't seen the solutions we want.

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We have, um, overdoses at

its highest rates in U.

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S.

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history.

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Illegal drug use has doubled

in the last 20 years.

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Um, overdose is now the leading

cause of accidental death in the U.

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S.

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So we have these increasing harms

instead of things getting better.

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And I hope that Curious, um, uh, is one

piece of shining a light on why that is

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and how we could, uh, reverse that trend.

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I love the name curious because it

captures a person attention and say,

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like, um, you want to see what's in here.

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You want to find out what the solution

is because, you know, we do have so many

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families struggling and wondering how,

what to do and, you know, constantly

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going to drug treatments, you know,

because the family goes along with them.

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So.

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In your, um, estimation, like,

what does Curious, in a nutshell,

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how do you approach this solution?

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What is the solution for this?

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Yeah, so I think it's a it's a multi

pronged solution because different

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parts of the solution impact

different parts of the problem.

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So usually people when they're thinking

about how do I help my loved one

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overcome an addiction, they're not

thinking about why are cartels South of

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the border, creating lots of violence.

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Like they seem very disconnected,

those, those problems.

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They seem like, well, yeah, they're

both kind of like related to drugs,

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but they're totally separate.

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Um, but they're not totally separate.

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And so part of what I do in Curious is

just take people through what happens

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when you use the criminal justice

system, whether it's for consumers of

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drugs or whether it's for drug markets.

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So, um, When you force a drug underground,

when you ban it, um, or schedule it,

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something that makes it where there's

no legal market for it, it doesn't go

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away, but it does move underground.

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And so you have, um, now the only

people that can get money from that

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are people who are willing to break

the law in order to sell those drugs.

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Sometimes those are people who

are just struggling with an

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addiction themselves and trying

to make some money to pay for it.

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Sometimes if you go far enough up the

food chain, you'll get back to, um, you

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know, cartels or terrorist organizations

or somebody like that who is selling, um,

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uh, drugs in order to profit from that.

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In a much larger sense.

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And so what we've done is we've

banned so many different drugs that

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now the underground drug market is

worth about 500 billion every year.

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So you think about this huge

pile of cash, 500 billion.

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And basically what we've said

is we just hope that nobody is

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going to go get that pile of cash.

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Like we just don't want anybody to, to, to

sell it, you know, to, to earn the money.

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Well, what do we know

about human behavior?

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Humans are not good at

leaving cash unearned.

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They, there is cash to be made.

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If there are consumers holding out

money, you're, there will always be

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somebody who is willing to sell those

drugs for a whole variety of reasons.

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But it's, it's always because there's cash

involved, there's money to be made there.

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And so that ends up incentivizing crime.

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And when you have.

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Lots and lots of crime and

it's an underground market.

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You can't call the police.

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If somebody rips you off, you've

got to go handle that on your own.

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Um, and you can't, it's not a.

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In a, you know, you think about

trade routes and things like that.

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Well, that's the way you get

that is just through force.

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You got to just defend your territory.

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You got to, if you want to

expand the piece of your pie,

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you got to take that by force.

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And so it ends up creating lots of

violence, lots of crime from the market.

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Fighting amongst, amongst itself, um, and

that ends up playing out in the streets.

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And generally that violence is most

felt in the most vulnerable communities,

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whether that's, uh, our vulnerable

communities in the U S or whether

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that's vulnerable communities outside

of the U S, um, that tends to be where

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most of that is, uh, is centered.

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And so that was a really

challenging thing for me.

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Cause I hadn't, I have always

thought, you know, If a drug can cause

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harm, you just ban it, and then it

goes away, but it doesn't go away.

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It actually creates a lot of crime,

and then it also, um, you don't have

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any kind of regulatory control over it.

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So, when we think about the fentanyl

crisis that we're in right now

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with people dying from overdose.

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About 90 percent of people who

die from an opioid overdose today

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have fentanyl in their systems.

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But that's happening because there's

no regulation around the drugs

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that they're getting on the street.

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They can have whatever in them.

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They can have fentanyl in them.

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They can have nidazines in them.

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They can have xylazine in them.

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They can have brick dust, rat poison,

all kinds of things that are used

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as additives and cutting agents.

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Um, and there's no quality control

like you would have in a legal market

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where you can look at the package and

you know, the ingredients, you know,

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the potency dose it appropriately.

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So I'll tell you a little story

about this, because fentanyl is

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such a huge problem right now.

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And so many people are dying and we,

so we think of fentanyl as a lethal.

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drug, like fentanyl kills people.

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But when my son, my youngest son, when

he was four, it's just a couple of years

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ago, um, he cut his finger really badly

and had to go to the emergency room.

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So we go to the emergency room and

he's going to have to have stitches.

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And the nurse comes in with a little

syringe and she says, Hey, I'm

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going to give him some fentanyl.

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It's going to help him feel better

before we do these stitches.

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Simultaneously, you have a four

year old, tiny little four year

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old who's going to get fentanyl.

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And you also have these 40 year old men

who are dying from fentanyl overdose.

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It's not the fentanyl that is

The real problem, it is the lack

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of quality control and the lack

of dosing, appropriate dosing.

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So in a medical setting, you

can dose fentanyl appropriately.

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Fentanyl is used every single day

in every hospital in this country,

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uh, over and over and over again.

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It's a very powerful opioid,

which makes it useful for pain

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relief in a medical setting.

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When it's on the street and people

can't dose it appropriately, it

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is so potent that the The risk of

overdose is just so much higher

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because the margin of error between

getting high and dying is razor thin.

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So you've got all of this harm

coming from these underground

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markets that move underground and

create a lot of crime and violence.

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You get a lot of overdose that happens

because of contamination and Um, you

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can't dose it appropriately and then you

have what happens to consumers, which I

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would imagine there's probably a lot of

people who listen to your podcast that

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have been affected in some way by, um,

incarceration related to drugs, whether

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that's a paraphernalia charge or a

possession charge or, uh, you know, intent

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to distribute or whatever it might be.

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Um, and so when I started looking

at that and thinking about for

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people who are using drugs.

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What is the likelihood that an

incarceration, that an arrest is going

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to deter them from using drugs again?

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I started learning about addiction and

what, what causes addiction and, and

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more importantly, what heals addiction.

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Because the, the whole

purpose of using the criminal

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justice system is people need.

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You know, they need that hard stop.

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They need that pain in their life.

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They need to feel it, uh, harshly, and

that will help them to kind of snap out

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of it and quit making those decisions.

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Um, and what I learned is that's

actually the opposite thing of what

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people need to be able to heal because

so much addiction is driven by.

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Pain in a person's life.

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Mm-Hmm.

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, emotional pain.

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Uh, mental health issues.

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Um, childhood trauma, loneliness,

disconnection, isolation.

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Those are the things that create

vulnerability to addiction.

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And so in using the criminal justice

system, we're actually adding more

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pain and trauma into a person's life.

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More difficulty, more disconnection,

and then were confused as

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to why that didn't work.

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And I think what we know now about

the drivers of addiction explains

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why that has not worked well for us.

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There are a few people for whom It

was the thing that changed their life.

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And there are thousands and thousands

of people cycling in and out of

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the criminal justice system because

it's not helping them to heal the

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deeper reasons for their drug use.

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It's just adding more pain and more hurt

and more difficulty into their life.

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So are you for legalizing it or what do

you have a solution in that area or yes,

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we would say yes, that moving towards

legally regulated markets again is going

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to be the best path to regain control

of the market, take it away from, uh,

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cartels and other criminal organizations

and also to regain some quality control

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and ability to, uh, To control the

product that people are using, as well

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as things like protecting children

through age restrictions on purchasing.

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Um, you know, one of the interesting

things I used to think about, you

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know, prohibiting a drug is kind of

like the ultimate form of regulation.

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Like if it's bad, boy, we're just

going to regulate the heck out of it.

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We're going to ban it.

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And it's actually, when you

ban something, you lose all.

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Control of it.

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I mean, you can, people can

sell whatever they want.

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So you've got whoever wants to can sell

it, whoever wants to can buy it and they

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can sell whatever product they want to.

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And there's no telling what they're

putting in that bag that they're selling.

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And so, um, it's actually a

prohibition is an absence of control.

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It's not.

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The ultimate form of control.

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And so, um, so I say that hesitatingly

because it still makes me uncomfortable.

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You know, we have an organization

that's inviting people to consider this

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because we think it is the best way

to reduce global harm as well as local

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harm related to drugs and addiction.

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But the idea of even adults having.

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Um, legal access to some of these

popular recreational drugs still

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makes me really uncomfortable.

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Um, cause I don't want people using drugs.

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I just, I want, except for medical

reasons or whatnot, and I recognize

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people can use recreationally and

that's, you know, plenty of people

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do that with alcohol legally today.

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Um, but the risk is there.

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There's certainly risk there

of what, what will happen.

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And will we be able to educate people?

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about the risks and help them

to make healthy decisions rather

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than, than unhealthy ones.

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Um, but when I look at what, what the

path is for us to continue down this

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path and what the path is to actually

solve the root causes of those problems,

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I think people, if you ask them what's

the biggest problem happening with.

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Drugs today, most people are going

to say overdose because they're

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hearing about it all the time.

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They know people who have

overdosed and died now.

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They know fentanyl is out there.

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So how are we going to fix that?

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You can't fix that by just putting

more police officers on the

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street and finding more drugs.

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As long as there's people who want drugs,

there's going to be drugs available.

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There's no way that you can take

enough drugs off the street.

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To stop people from using drugs.

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It is, it is absolutely impossible.

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It's like, um, it would be like thinking

we could like empty Walmart shelves

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and we just steal enough merchandise.

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Kind of like Walmart knows

how much merchandise they're

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going to lose to shoplifting.

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And they just send that much

more merchandise because they

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want their shelves to be full.

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The same is true of the drug market.

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There is no shortage of drugs.

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Their shipping is pretty good.

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As much as they need for whatever the

market demand is in a particular area.

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Um, so we can't, there are no other

good solutions to some of these.

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problems that we're facing

to, to address fentanyl.

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We have to allow some form of

quality controlled, um, option

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for consumers to use so that they

stop using contaminated drugs.

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That's going to be hard.

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It's going to be hard to figure out.

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What's the best way to do that?

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Is it through prescriptions?

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Is it at a pharmacy?

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Um, Are there certain low dosages

that people could access without

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a prescription but from a medical

provider in some way from a pharmacy

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where it still can be regulated?

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And those are hard questions, but I think

the The time has passed for us to say

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the, the solutions are too difficult.

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And we just want to kind of

keep going down the same path.

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If we keep going down the same path,

we're going to keep getting not just the

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same results, but actually worse results.

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Because if you look at what has happened

with, um, contamination, let's say,

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so it used to be that contamination

happened, but it wasn't a huge problem.

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The potency of the drugs was

not strong enough where you had

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lots and lots of people dying.

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But now.

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Fentanyl's on the market.

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Nidazines are actually far

more potent than fentanyl.

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They're coming in, they're

moving them all around the U.

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S.

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Um, we're on a, a march towards higher

and higher and higher potency drugs on

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the street, and that's not going to stop.

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Um, people are going to

continue to die because they

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can't dose them appropriately.

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You look at the, um, the rate of how much

money is going to criminal organizations.

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People are still buying drugs and

that money is going to go to criminal

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organizations as long as we do not

allow those markets to operate in

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some sort of legally regulated way.

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Um, so the answers are hard, but

I think if we're, if we sit long

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enough with the root causes of the

problem, um, we might be willing to

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begin that process of figuring out

how do we roll back this criminal

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justice approach so that we can treat.

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Drugs and drug use and addiction

as health issues, which I

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think is what they really are.

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Mm hmm.

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Okay, so that's what Curious is going

into is, you know, um, the legal system.

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What about the root causes

for with the person itself?

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How does it address this

particular issue health wise?

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Mm hmm.

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Yeah, so one of the things that I

would encourage for any family member

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who has a loved one who is struggling.

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With addiction is to go

to allies in recovery.

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So we're not financially

connected to them in any way.

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We just know who they are

and they do fantastic work.

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They're a national organization,

allies in recovery.

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Um, and they offer training, support

groups, um, practice groups, all

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kinds of support for family members.

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with a loved one struggling

with an addiction.

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And they teach a model called C.

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R.

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A.

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F.

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T.

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So it stands for Community

Reinforcement and Family Training.

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And C.

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R.

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A.

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F.

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T., yeah, C.

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R.

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A.

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F.

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T.

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was developed, uh, a couple of decades

ago, probably 25 years ago now.

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And it is a, it's a model that has

been studied extensively and has been

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shown to increase the family's health.

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As addiction is a incredibly stressful

event for the whole family unit.

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So, CRAFT increases the family's

health as well as it actually

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makes their loved one more likely

to seek help for their addiction.

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So for families that

aren't sure, what do I do?

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Like how do I, I don't want to

enable them, but I also don't want

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to just cut off this family member.

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Be That I love, but I, what, how do I

engage here in a way that's helpful?

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Craft teaches you how to do that.

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It teaches you how to engage with

your loved one in a way that is not

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enabling, but does offer them positive

reinforcement for making positive choices.

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And it's really transformative.

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I, I hope everyone knows about it.

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And I hope that we get

to a point one day where.

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There's craft support groups, just like

there are AA support groups or Al Anon

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support groups or anything like that.

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Um, because one of the challenges

of, of the groups that are available

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currently is they tend to say.

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They tend to teach you how to

separate from the situation, but

438

not how to actually engage in

the situation in a helpful way.

439

And so that's what CRAFT does.

440

So for any family member, highly

recommend checking out Allies in Recovery.

441

Um, they have so many different resources

and just do phenomenal work resourcing

442

families who are trying to walk with

their loved one through an addiction.

443

Um, and then for people who are

struggling with an addiction, I think,

444

you know, Part of the research for the

book, and the book really is a memoir.

445

So if people are thinking, I'm not

interested in like a drug policy

446

book, this isn't a drug policy book.

447

This is a memoir.

448

Um, this is just my, my, my journey, my

story, what I learned and what I think

449

could, could, um, help us in the long run.

450

Um, but one of the things that was so

interesting to me is how many people.

451

Who have struggled with an addiction

that went through that addiction, having

452

no clue what was happening to them.

453

Like, why, what is, why

am I making these choices?

454

Why can't I stop?

455

Why, even though I love my family,

why did I just steal money from them?

456

Like these things that are, that are so

against their values, their internal.

457

Um, character and yet they're

behaving in ways that are not in

458

line with who they want to be and

who, who they are at their core.

459

Um, and I think Curious offers

them a way of learning about that.

460

Um, I talk about Rat Park, which was a,

uh, experiment that was done a number of

461

years ago to, um, to help, uh, figure out,

is it the drug that is so powerful or is

462

it something else that's actually the real

reason why people are using that drug?

463

So I tell that whole story and experiment.

464

It's fascinating and, um, curious,

but it helps give people answers.

465

My mom always used to say hooks

to hang things on, like a way to

466

understand, um, what's happening,

whether that's a loved one or

467

whether that's a person in addiction.

468

And I've actually had a lot of

people in recovery who have read

469

the book and said it was a really

healing thing for them to read.

470

I think just, um, Yeah, that, that

has really touched me that it has been

471

helpful, even though I'm not a person who

has experienced a substance use disorder

472

myself, um, but in talking to so many

people and telling so many other people's

473

stories in the book, it's, it's my

story, but there's also lots of different

474

people's stories who were included in it,

um, including parents of children who have

475

struggled, um, parents who've lost loved

ones, Just lots of different stories.

476

So I think it is for anyone

who is touched with this issue.

477

Um, my experience has been, I've

been hearing from people who

478

have said, this is so helpful.

479

It's so hopeful, gives us a, a

way to see a different future

480

that we can be part of where.

481

There's a lot more healing

and a lot less harm.

482

Mm hmm.

483

I like that.

484

Yeah.

485

It's because, yeah, we do need better

approaches and not just, I'm a believer

486

that prisons are not actually, you

know, biblically speaking, it's not,

487

it wasn't designed to cure anything.

488

It was.

489

Designed for, um, punishment in a way not

to try and treat the person, but, um, but

490

yeah, but we've lost that way, I think,

and that's and we're finding that out

491

because a lot of people are not changing.

492

It's not meant to change the person.

493

Right?

494

So it can't change the person.

495

So with.

496

You know, I love this training craft

and just getting into things like that.

497

Maybe they can bring

that into the prisons.

498

Do they have that at all?

499

Well, that's for the family members.

500

But what about, you know, um, what

was the other one for individuals?

501

Is there any individual one?

502

Well, there are different, um, so

there are prisons or jails that do

503

have different recovery programs.

504

Some of them run celebrate

recovery programs in there.

505

Um, there are some jails that

are starting to offer medication

506

for opioid use disorder.

507

That's a really helpful tool for a lot

of people to stabilize their lives.

508

Um, and not be using

contaminated substances.

509

There are some jails that are

beginning to allow that in, in jails,

510

which is a, is phenomenal because

it is, um, at this point, the most

511

effective form of treatment that

we know of for, um, an opioid use

512

disorder that is available at least.

513

And so, um, yeah, there's

lots of different.

514

options.

515

Very few tend to be available

in jails and prisons.

516

And, you know, to your point,

I actually was just reading,

517

um, a study that came out.

518

It was an analysis of like 116 other

studies on the role of incarceration

519

on, um, recidivism, like on a person,

whether or not they're going to

520

commit another crime in the future.

521

And they found that incarceration has

no different impact on the rates of

522

recidivism than like Um, probation does.

523

So, being, to your point, incarceration

is, um, it really is only useful as a

524

separating of someone from the community.

525

Like, if they are so dangerous that

they, they must be held in a specific

526

location away from the community.

527

for joining me.

528

It can do that, but it does not impact.

529

It does not help people make better future

decisions any more than just being put on

530

probation would, which is pretty shocking.

531

I mean, that's, we've got lots of people

in prison for whom the, the reason we

532

put them there is because we're hoping

it changes their future behavior.

533

Um, and yeah, it's not designed for that.

534

It can't, it's not doing that.

535

It really can't do that.

536

I mean, you're, you're asking people

to find healing for deep wounds.

537

In a place where violence and abuse

and, uh, and drugs are rampant,

538

people can get drugs easily in prison.

539

And so it's not helping them

overcome their addiction.

540

There certainly are a few people who

have a life changing experience there,

541

but the vast majority, um, do not.

542

And it makes life, um, a whole lot harder.

543

Mm hmm.

544

Yeah.

545

Now, if we can just get people to

see that point and, uh, help find

546

the solution, you know, and use.

547

The tool of prison appropriately,

you know, just like you said,

548

some people don't need to be there

and they need to be in treatment.

549

Maybe it's, you know, but it's, it

just depends on the circumstances and

550

the person, you know, it's not for

everybody, but yeah, this is very good.

551

I like that you took the time, you did

this memoir cause I was going to ask

552

you, you know, how did you know this?

553

How did you know, and just

listening to people's stories.

554

And I think it's going to resonate.

555

With you know people that haven't

been exposed to this because

556

how would they know you know?

557

Yeah, you're making judgments without much

information, and that's just a tendency.

558

We all have yeah No, we're gonna feel

it was something if we don't know so

559

that's right So we just make it up you

know so and then we like well, that's

560

that's That's not what I believe in.

561

And, uh, thank you for seeing that

it was a difference in a person.

562

Uh, the mother is an individual that

is going through some things and, and

563

we do really need to get to the core,

like what's the fundamental problems

564

and start addressing that, and a lot

of times I'm seeing all these government

565

programs meant to help is always harmful.

566

Yeah.

567

Yeah.

568

Always turns out to be very harmful

because, we have not the right

569

things in place and some of the people

are not curious, not reading your

570

book and just doing the research.

571

They're just throwing it out there.

572

I just got this degree in here and

there and I know what I'm doing.

573

And it's like, you, how can you Do

that and you haven't even looked at

574

it and don't even, you know, it's

not working cause they, they don't

575

go back and look at the stats and

stuff like, Hey, you need to fix this.

576

It's not working.

577

So yeah, this is wonderful.

578

, is there anything else?

579

, as we wrap this up, you want to

say to the audience about curious,

580

I know I'm going to put it in the

show notes, how to contact you.

581

I actually joined and subscribed to get

you because, you know, just to stay.

582

Posted on what's needed.

583

It seems like you've got a really good

handle on, , the lawmakers and what's

584

coming out and hopefully getting them to.

585

, to write some better bills, um,

some laws and put it in place.

586

And hopefully we do something, I hate

to say it about that border, how it's

587

getting in here, but what, what would you,

what else would you say that's really,

588

you want to say to the audience to about

curious about, uh, especially people who

589

haven't been exposed to drugs at all.

590

Yeah.

591

Yeah.

592

So I'd say, um, so I've got some

free copies for your listeners.

593

So the first five people that email us,

we'll send a free copy of curious to you.

594

You can email us at

curious at end it for good.

595

com.

596

That's like E N D.

597

And it for good.

598

com.

599

So curious at, and if we're good.

600

com shoot us an email, first five

people will send a free copy of it too.

601

Um, you can also get it on Amazon.

602

The audio book will be out

in just a couple of weeks.

603

There's a Kindle version.

604

Um, and there's also, we have

just some resources on our

605

website that you can get to.

606

You can go to end it for good.

607

com slash freebies.

608

And we have three ways you can help

someone struggling with an addiction.

609

We also have one called, um,

five keys to having productive

610

conversations on polarizing topics.

611

If you've ever tried to, ever tried

to share your passion about something

612

with someone and you just feel like

you hit the brick wall, um, we've,

613

we've learned a lot doing, uh, lots

of events and lots of speaking and

614

talking with lots of people about how.

615

How can we help people be, be

curious about whatever our issue is?

616

For us, this is this issue of drugs

and addiction, but for other people,

617

it's other passions and that's great.

618

So if you have a passion for something

and you're trying to figure out how to

619

help other people be open to listening,

um, we wanted to just help people.

620

Be able to, to share their passions

with the world in a more productive way.

621

And so you can go to end it for good.

622

com slash freebies.

623

And yeah, we would love to hear from you.

624

Um, uh, this, this type of thing, every

movement in history, it starts with.

625

Just regular people, regular people who

make it their passion, who make it the

626

thing that they're going to put some

time and effort into, um, into sharing

627

it with other people, we grew into

an organization because people just

628

invited other people, Hey, you should

come and come to one of these events.

629

Hey, you should read this article.

630

Hey, you should read this book.

631

Um, it's not because.

632

We can reach everyone, it's because

through all of the people who have

633

connected with this movement, they

are now taking the movement and

634

helping to reach other people with it.

635

Um, and that is how all movements grow.

636

And we hope this is one where we look

back in 50 years and we all just shake

637

our heads and say, I cannot believe that

we used to think that incarceration was

638

going to solve addiction, that it, that

it becomes just something that seems,

639

um, unbelievable to us, that that would

have been a time in history and that we

640

would leave that behind, just like we've

left a lot of other things behind that

641

have needed to be changed over time.

642

And we have realized when we, when we

learn something new, when we know better.

643

It's time to do better.

644

Um, and I think this is one of those

areas where we can, that's excellent.

645

I love this approach because, you know,

what you're doing is helping with the

646

communication because it has to start

with the communication and being able

647

to listen, you know, be able to see.

648

Translate, be able to receive if you

don't have a good receiver, you're

649

not going to understand the knowledge.

650

So this is really, really good.

651

I really thank you, Christina audience

again, the first five people get

652

free books and tell them prisoners.

653

Pardon me, TJ sent you.

654

So I really thank you for coming.

655

Thank you for sharing your knowledge

and your experience and just being

656

honest and open yourself about what.

657

We don't know what you don't know.

658

So, and we all need to do that

because we don't know everything.

659

We need to just listen at times.

660

So, and thank you all for listening.

661

Well, that's it for today.

662

Thank you for listening.

663

And may you have a week

filled with blessings.

664

God bless.