E59 - End It For Good: Addressing Drugs and Addiction with Christina Dent

Speaker: 00:00:00

I think We have misunderstood,

, the root causes of a lot of

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the problems we're facing.

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And we look deep enough

at those root causes.

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We would get some very

different solutions.

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And I think that's why.

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We haven't seen the solutions we want.

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We have, overdoses at

its highest rates in U.

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S.

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history.

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Illegal drug use has doubled

in the last 20 years.

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Overdose is now the leading cause

of accidental death in the U.

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S.

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So we have these increasing harms

instead of things getting better.

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I think We have

misunderstood, , the root causes

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Hello and welcome to a

prisoner's pardon podcast.

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This is Michi J and I am so glad to

have everyone listening today because

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we have a great guest here today.

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Her name is Christina Dent.

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Christina is a speaker author.

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She's the founder of the

organization End It For Good.

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You have to understand we're going

to talk about what this is all

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about, because you need to hear this.

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She's a mother.

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She's a wife.

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She's out of Jackson, Mississippi.

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That's not far from where

my people were raised.

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So that's interesting in itself.

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And she also, she has a BA.

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in biblical studies out

of Mississippi as well.

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It's.

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so great to have her here

because Christina is talking

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about drugs and addiction

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.

Welcome Christina.

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Thank you.

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I'm really excited to be with you.

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Oh, I am excited to, to

have you here as well.

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Now, Christina has been everywhere.

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You guys, I was looking at her bio.

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She has done Ted talks and she

has been in front of criminal

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justice, people, churches.

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She has been across the whole gamut.

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Now she is talking to

my audience, which is.

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Mostly, people that's been incarcerated,

their families, , as you all know, I

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have a brother that's incarcerated who

has been dealing with drugs as well.

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And I needed this

solution a long time ago.

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So I am so happy to have you here.

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So Christina, tell us more.

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It's something I miss about what you do.

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Yeah.

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So I'll give you the story

of how I got into it.

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Then we'll talk about what we do.

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So I grew up here in

Mississippi, uh, born and raised.

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I've lived in Mississippi my whole life.

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Um, and never was close to

drugs and addiction growing up.

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I didn't have that in my family.

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Um, my friends weren't using in

high school or anything like that.

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And so, uh, it really didn't Come close

to me until I was in my early thirties.

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Like you said, I have a degree in Bible.

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It just wasn't part of my,

wasn't part of my world.

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Um, you know, I was about as wild as

like popping popcorn and watching a movie

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on the weekend kind of thing like that.

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This wasn't my, it just, it

never came into my field.

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And so, um, I kind of got to my early

thirties with this idea that is a,

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uh, kind of the cultural idea of

people who use drugs are bad people.

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And so I had kind of just picked that up.

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I don't remember anybody ever

specifically saying that to me.

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It was just kind of what I picked

up from all the things around me is

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this is kind of a, um, you know, uh,

uh, low character or moral failing

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of some sort, that sort of thing.

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And so when, um, I was in my

early thirties, my husband

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and I became foster parents.

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And through that experience, we ended

up fostering a couple of different

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children, but one of them was a

little boy who was born, um, to his

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mom, who was struggling with a, um,

methamphetamine addiction at the time.

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And she wasn't able to, Beat that

addiction during her pregnancy.

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And so when he was born, he was

removed from her custody and put into

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foster care and she would have the

opportunity to regain custody of him.

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Um, and he was brought to our house

and we became his foster family.

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So he arrives and, um, after a couple

of days, uh, I take him to go visit his

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mom at the child welfare office for her

one hour visitation time in the little

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visitation room and I, um, Pull into the

parking lot of that office and I pop his

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car seat out of the car and turn around

in the parking lot and suddenly I'm

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Watch this woman come sprinting across

the parking lot towards me, weeping.

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And she runs over and just starts

kissing this baby and talking to him.

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And I'm still kind of awkwardly

holding his car seat, wondering

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what the heck is going on.

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Um, and this is his mom, Joanne.

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And this is the first time I've met her.

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I feel very suspicious, uh,

uncertain of You know, it's real.

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If she really loved him this much,

you know, I was using drugs while

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she was pregnant and just didn't

really know how to understand that.

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And so, you know, I did what I

think humans do when we encounter

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something that doesn't fit with what

we already believe, we kind of try to

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look for a reason to stop listening.

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Like, how could I, how could

I make my life easier by like

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disregarding this in some way?

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I'm looking for some reason

to say this isn't real.

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So I left him for his

hour of visitation time.

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I came back and picked him up and, um,

he was just laying on his mom's shoulder.

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She's just sitting there on that couch.

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She's not playing on

her phone or anything.

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She just is drinking in this moment

that she has with him, this one

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hour of time before she has to

leave for inpatient drug treatment.

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And he comes back to my house.

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Mhm.

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So they got there one hour, she went

to treatment, um, but then she would

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call me from there and she would ask

me to put her on speakerphone and

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she would sing to him over the phone.

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It was just this incredible

experience of her vulnerability.

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To let me see her as she really is

not to hold me at arm's length, not

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to push me away or to be combative

because that's a hard relationship.

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I thought, you know, some

random person has your child.

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Um, instead she just let me see her.

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And that was life changing for me because

I started to wrestle with, wait a second.

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I know we're putting women like her

in prison and men all the time for the

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exact same thing that she was doing.

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If she had been caught in possession

of that methamphetamine, um, she

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would have had a very different

outcome than what she was able to

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have because she was able to go to

treatment and she wasn't caught first.

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So I started wrestling with that

and really began this learning

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journey that ended up happening.

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Changing my mind completely about

how we could get the best outcomes

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related to drugs and addiction.

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That's everything from people like

Joanne that were struggling with an

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addiction, as well as everything from

how do we stop the overdose crisis?

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How do we reduce the amount

of crime that's related to

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that underground drug market?

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It's all wrapped up in this big

question about what are the best

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tools to use for drugs and addiction.

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And that's why I wrote the book.

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Curious is to take people on that learning

journey with me and to say, I think we

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have misunderstood, um, the root causes

of a lot of the problems we're facing.

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And we look deep enough

at those root causes.

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We would get some very

different solutions.

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And I think that's why.

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We haven't seen the solutions we want.

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We have, um, overdoses at

its highest rates in U.

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S.

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history.

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Illegal drug use has doubled

in the last 20 years.

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Um, overdose is now the leading

cause of accidental death in the U.

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S.

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So we have these increasing harms

instead of things getting better.

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And I hope that Curious, um, uh, is one

piece of shining a light on why that is

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and how we could, uh, reverse that trend.

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I love the name curious because it

captures a person attention and say,

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like, um, you want to see what's in here.

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You want to find out what the solution

is because, you know, we do have so many

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families struggling and wondering how,

what to do and, you know, constantly

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going to drug treatments, you know,

because the family goes along with them.

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So.

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In your, um, estimation, like,

what does Curious, in a nutshell,

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how do you approach this solution?

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What is the solution for this?

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Yeah, so I think it's a it's a multi

pronged solution because different

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parts of the solution impact

different parts of the problem.

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So usually people when they're thinking

about how do I help my loved one

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overcome an addiction, they're not

thinking about why are cartels South of

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the border, creating lots of violence.

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Like they seem very disconnected,

those, those problems.

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They seem like, well, yeah, they're

both kind of like related to drugs,

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but they're totally separate.

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Um, but they're not totally separate.

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And so part of what I do in Curious is

just take people through what happens

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when you use the criminal justice

system, whether it's for consumers of

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drugs or whether it's for drug markets.

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So, um, When you force a drug underground,

when you ban it, um, or schedule it,

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something that makes it where there's

no legal market for it, it doesn't go

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away, but it does move underground.

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And so you have, um, now the only

people that can get money from that

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are people who are willing to break

the law in order to sell those drugs.

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Sometimes those are people who

are just struggling with an

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addiction themselves and trying

to make some money to pay for it.

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Sometimes if you go far enough up the

food chain, you'll get back to, um, you

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know, cartels or terrorist organizations

or somebody like that who is selling, um,

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uh, drugs in order to profit from that.

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In a much larger sense.

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And so what we've done is we've

banned so many different drugs that

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now the underground drug market is

worth about 500 billion every year.

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So you think about this huge

pile of cash, 500 billion.

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And basically what we've said

is we just hope that nobody is

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going to go get that pile of cash.

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Like we just don't want anybody to, to, to

sell it, you know, to, to earn the money.

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Well, what do we know

about human behavior?

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Humans are not good at

leaving cash unearned.

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They, there is cash to be made.

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If there are consumers holding out

money, you're, there will always be

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somebody who is willing to sell those

drugs for a whole variety of reasons.

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But it's, it's always because there's cash

involved, there's money to be made there.

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And so that ends up incentivizing crime.

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And when you have.

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Lots and lots of crime and

it's an underground market.

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You can't call the police.

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If somebody rips you off, you've

got to go handle that on your own.

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Um, and you can't, it's not a.

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In a, you know, you think about

trade routes and things like that.

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Well, that's the way you get

that is just through force.

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You got to just defend your territory.

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You got to, if you want to

expand the piece of your pie,

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you got to take that by force.

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And so it ends up creating lots of

violence, lots of crime from the market.

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Fighting amongst, amongst itself, um, and

that ends up playing out in the streets.

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And generally that violence is most

felt in the most vulnerable communities,

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whether that's, uh, our vulnerable

communities in the U S or whether

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that's vulnerable communities outside

of the U S, um, that tends to be where

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most of that is, uh, is centered.

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And so that was a really

challenging thing for me.

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Cause I hadn't, I have always

thought, you know, If a drug can cause

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harm, you just ban it, and then it

goes away, but it doesn't go away.

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It actually creates a lot of crime,

and then it also, um, you don't have

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any kind of regulatory control over it.

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So, when we think about the fentanyl

crisis that we're in right now

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with people dying from overdose.

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About 90 percent of people who

die from an opioid overdose today

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have fentanyl in their systems.

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But that's happening because there's

no regulation around the drugs

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that they're getting on the street.

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They can have whatever in them.

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They can have fentanyl in them.

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They can have nidazines in them.

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They can have xylazine in them.

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They can have brick dust, rat poison,

all kinds of things that are used

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as additives and cutting agents.

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Um, and there's no quality control

like you would have in a legal market

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where you can look at the package and

you know, the ingredients, you know,

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the potency dose it appropriately.

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So I'll tell you a little story

about this, because fentanyl is

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such a huge problem right now.

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And so many people are dying and we,

so we think of fentanyl as a lethal.

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drug, like fentanyl kills people.

231

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But when my son, my youngest son, when

he was four, it's just a couple of years

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ago, um, he cut his finger really badly

and had to go to the emergency room.

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So we go to the emergency room and

he's going to have to have stitches.

234

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And the nurse comes in with a little

syringe and she says, Hey, I'm

235

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going to give him some fentanyl.

236

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It's going to help him feel better

before we do these stitches.

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Simultaneously, you have a four

year old, tiny little four year

238

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old who's going to get fentanyl.

239

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And you also have these 40 year old men

who are dying from fentanyl overdose.

240

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It's not the fentanyl that is

The real problem, it is the lack

241

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of quality control and the lack

of dosing, appropriate dosing.

242

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So in a medical setting, you

can dose fentanyl appropriately.

243

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Fentanyl is used every single day

in every hospital in this country,

244

00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:58,060

uh, over and over and over again.

245

00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:02,230

It's a very powerful opioid,

which makes it useful for pain

246

00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:03,550

relief in a medical setting.

247

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When it's on the street and people

can't dose it appropriately, it

248

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is so potent that the The risk of

overdose is just so much higher

249

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because the margin of error between

getting high and dying is razor thin.

250

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So you've got all of this harm

coming from these underground

251

00:14:23,435 --> 00:14:27,265

markets that move underground and

create a lot of crime and violence.

252

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You get a lot of overdose that happens

because of contamination and Um, you

253

00:14:32,570 --> 00:14:36,760

can't dose it appropriately and then you

have what happens to consumers, which I

254

00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,740

would imagine there's probably a lot of

people who listen to your podcast that

255

00:14:39,740 --> 00:14:44,510

have been affected in some way by, um,

incarceration related to drugs, whether

256

00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:50,070

that's a paraphernalia charge or a

possession charge or, uh, you know, intent

257

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to distribute or whatever it might be.

258

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Um, and so when I started looking

at that and thinking about for

259

00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,510

people who are using drugs.

260

00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:05,060

What is the likelihood that an

incarceration, that an arrest is going

261

00:15:05,060 --> 00:15:08,760

to deter them from using drugs again?

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00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,970

I started learning about addiction and

what, what causes addiction and, and

263

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more importantly, what heals addiction.

264

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Because the, the whole

purpose of using the criminal

265

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justice system is people need.

266

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You know, they need that hard stop.

267

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They need that pain in their life.

268

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They need to feel it, uh, harshly, and

that will help them to kind of snap out

269

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of it and quit making those decisions.

270

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Um, and what I learned is that's

actually the opposite thing of what

271

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people need to be able to heal because

so much addiction is driven by.

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Pain in a person's life.

273

00:15:45,415 --> 00:15:45,505

Mm-Hmm.

274

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, emotional pain.

275

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Uh, mental health issues.

276

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Um, childhood trauma, loneliness,

disconnection, isolation.

277

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Those are the things that create

vulnerability to addiction.

278

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And so in using the criminal justice

system, we're actually adding more

279

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pain and trauma into a person's life.

280

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More difficulty, more disconnection,

and then were confused as

281

00:16:12,755 --> 00:16:14,315

to why that didn't work.

282

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And I think what we know now about

the drivers of addiction explains

283

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why that has not worked well for us.

284

00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,805

There are a few people for whom It

was the thing that changed their life.

285

00:16:26,115 --> 00:16:30,485

And there are thousands and thousands

of people cycling in and out of

286

00:16:30,485 --> 00:16:34,835

the criminal justice system because

it's not helping them to heal the

287

00:16:34,835 --> 00:16:37,585

deeper reasons for their drug use.

288

00:16:38,045 --> 00:16:42,135

It's just adding more pain and more hurt

and more difficulty into their life.

289

00:16:42,425 --> 00:16:49,905

So are you for legalizing it or what do

you have a solution in that area or yes,

290

00:16:50,175 --> 00:16:55,825

we would say yes, that moving towards

legally regulated markets again is going

291

00:16:55,825 --> 00:17:00,815

to be the best path to regain control

of the market, take it away from, uh,

292

00:17:00,845 --> 00:17:07,675

cartels and other criminal organizations

and also to regain some quality control

293

00:17:07,675 --> 00:17:11,970

and ability to, uh, To control the

product that people are using, as well

294

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as things like protecting children

through age restrictions on purchasing.

295

00:17:16,450 --> 00:17:20,339

Um, you know, one of the interesting

things I used to think about, you

296

00:17:20,339 --> 00:17:24,170

know, prohibiting a drug is kind of

like the ultimate form of regulation.

297

00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,349

Like if it's bad, boy, we're just

going to regulate the heck out of it.

298

00:17:27,369 --> 00:17:28,210

We're going to ban it.

299

00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,710

And it's actually, when you

ban something, you lose all.

300

00:17:33,090 --> 00:17:34,020

Control of it.

301

00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,960

I mean, you can, people can

sell whatever they want.

302

00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,600

So you've got whoever wants to can sell

it, whoever wants to can buy it and they

303

00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,490

can sell whatever product they want to.

304

00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:46,880

And there's no telling what they're

putting in that bag that they're selling.

305

00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:53,290

And so, um, it's actually a

prohibition is an absence of control.

306

00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:54,230

It's not.

307

00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,070

The ultimate form of control.

308

00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:02,620

And so, um, so I say that hesitatingly

because it still makes me uncomfortable.

309

00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:05,690

You know, we have an organization

that's inviting people to consider this

310

00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:10,430

because we think it is the best way

to reduce global harm as well as local

311

00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:12,260

harm related to drugs and addiction.

312

00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:16,420

But the idea of even adults having.

313

00:18:16,695 --> 00:18:20,925

Um, legal access to some of these

popular recreational drugs still

314

00:18:20,925 --> 00:18:22,255

makes me really uncomfortable.

315

00:18:22,575 --> 00:18:24,555

Um, cause I don't want people using drugs.

316

00:18:24,555 --> 00:18:28,385

I just, I want, except for medical

reasons or whatnot, and I recognize

317

00:18:28,385 --> 00:18:32,115

people can use recreationally and

that's, you know, plenty of people

318

00:18:32,115 --> 00:18:34,255

do that with alcohol legally today.

319

00:18:34,835 --> 00:18:37,015

Um, but the risk is there.

320

00:18:37,105 --> 00:18:41,695

There's certainly risk there

of what, what will happen.

321

00:18:41,695 --> 00:18:44,035

And will we be able to educate people?

322

00:18:44,345 --> 00:18:50,125

about the risks and help them

to make healthy decisions rather

323

00:18:50,125 --> 00:18:52,245

than, than unhealthy ones.

324

00:18:52,695 --> 00:18:58,135

Um, but when I look at what, what the

path is for us to continue down this

325

00:18:58,155 --> 00:19:05,625

path and what the path is to actually

solve the root causes of those problems,

326

00:19:05,625 --> 00:19:09,715

I think people, if you ask them what's

the biggest problem happening with.

327

00:19:10,290 --> 00:19:12,880

Drugs today, most people are going

to say overdose because they're

328

00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,250

hearing about it all the time.

329

00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:16,740

They know people who have

overdosed and died now.

330

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They know fentanyl is out there.

331

00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:20,550

So how are we going to fix that?

332

00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,860

You can't fix that by just putting

more police officers on the

333

00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:27,290

street and finding more drugs.

334

00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:30,850

As long as there's people who want drugs,

there's going to be drugs available.

335

00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:35,300

There's no way that you can take

enough drugs off the street.

336

00:19:35,485 --> 00:19:37,055

To stop people from using drugs.

337

00:19:37,065 --> 00:19:39,995

It is, it is absolutely impossible.

338

00:19:39,995 --> 00:19:44,455

It's like, um, it would be like thinking

we could like empty Walmart shelves

339

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and we just steal enough merchandise.

340

00:19:46,385 --> 00:19:48,845

Kind of like Walmart knows

how much merchandise they're

341

00:19:48,845 --> 00:19:50,415

going to lose to shoplifting.

342

00:19:50,675 --> 00:19:53,975

And they just send that much

more merchandise because they

343

00:19:53,975 --> 00:19:55,055

want their shelves to be full.

344

00:19:55,745 --> 00:19:57,515

The same is true of the drug market.

345

00:19:57,525 --> 00:19:59,895

There is no shortage of drugs.

346

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Their shipping is pretty good.

347

00:20:01,415 --> 00:20:06,135

As much as they need for whatever the

market demand is in a particular area.

348

00:20:06,595 --> 00:20:13,715

Um, so we can't, there are no other

good solutions to some of these.

349

00:20:14,245 --> 00:20:17,285

problems that we're facing

to, to address fentanyl.

350

00:20:17,725 --> 00:20:24,315

We have to allow some form of

quality controlled, um, option

351

00:20:24,585 --> 00:20:29,135

for consumers to use so that they

stop using contaminated drugs.

352

00:20:29,765 --> 00:20:30,905

That's going to be hard.

353

00:20:30,945 --> 00:20:32,355

It's going to be hard to figure out.

354

00:20:32,775 --> 00:20:34,465

What's the best way to do that?

355

00:20:34,475 --> 00:20:35,685

Is it through prescriptions?

356

00:20:35,705 --> 00:20:37,185

Is it at a pharmacy?

357

00:20:37,485 --> 00:20:41,085

Um, Are there certain low dosages

that people could access without

358

00:20:41,085 --> 00:20:45,155

a prescription but from a medical

provider in some way from a pharmacy

359

00:20:45,185 --> 00:20:46,605

where it still can be regulated?

360

00:20:46,605 --> 00:20:55,270

And those are hard questions, but I think

the The time has passed for us to say

361

00:20:56,030 --> 00:20:58,020

the, the solutions are too difficult.

362

00:20:58,060 --> 00:21:00,270

And we just want to kind of

keep going down the same path.

363

00:21:00,830 --> 00:21:04,770

If we keep going down the same path,

we're going to keep getting not just the

364

00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:06,770

same results, but actually worse results.

365

00:21:06,890 --> 00:21:12,160

Because if you look at what has happened

with, um, contamination, let's say,

366

00:21:12,430 --> 00:21:16,770

so it used to be that contamination

happened, but it wasn't a huge problem.

367

00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:19,790

The potency of the drugs was

not strong enough where you had

368

00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,310

lots and lots of people dying.

369

00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:22,520

But now.

370

00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:24,400

Fentanyl's on the market.

371

00:21:24,910 --> 00:21:27,480

Nidazines are actually far

more potent than fentanyl.

372

00:21:27,530 --> 00:21:30,980

They're coming in, they're

moving them all around the U.

373

00:21:30,980 --> 00:21:31,260

S.

374

00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:37,900

Um, we're on a, a march towards higher

and higher and higher potency drugs on

375

00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:42,280

the street, and that's not going to stop.

376

00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:46,450

Um, people are going to

continue to die because they

377

00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:48,150

can't dose them appropriately.

378

00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:55,320

You look at the, um, the rate of how much

money is going to criminal organizations.

379

00:21:56,775 --> 00:22:00,995

People are still buying drugs and

that money is going to go to criminal

380

00:22:00,995 --> 00:22:05,255

organizations as long as we do not

allow those markets to operate in

381

00:22:05,255 --> 00:22:07,445

some sort of legally regulated way.

382

00:22:07,805 --> 00:22:12,395

Um, so the answers are hard, but

I think if we're, if we sit long

383

00:22:12,395 --> 00:22:17,195

enough with the root causes of the

problem, um, we might be willing to

384

00:22:17,215 --> 00:22:22,155

begin that process of figuring out

how do we roll back this criminal

385

00:22:22,155 --> 00:22:24,755

justice approach so that we can treat.

386

00:22:25,415 --> 00:22:28,285

Drugs and drug use and addiction

as health issues, which I

387

00:22:28,285 --> 00:22:29,875

think is what they really are.

388

00:22:30,255 --> 00:22:30,675

Mm hmm.

389

00:22:31,245 --> 00:22:38,245

Okay, so that's what Curious is going

into is, you know, um, the legal system.

390

00:22:38,495 --> 00:22:42,155

What about the root causes

for with the person itself?

391

00:22:42,155 --> 00:22:47,495

How does it address this

particular issue health wise?

392

00:22:47,496 --> 00:22:48,295

Mm hmm.

393

00:22:48,715 --> 00:22:52,495

Yeah, so one of the things that I

would encourage for any family member

394

00:22:52,495 --> 00:22:54,485

who has a loved one who is struggling.

395

00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,440

With addiction is to go

to allies in recovery.

396

00:22:58,580 --> 00:23:01,080

So we're not financially

connected to them in any way.

397

00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,380

We just know who they are

and they do fantastic work.

398

00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:06,390

They're a national organization,

allies in recovery.

399

00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:12,900

Um, and they offer training, support

groups, um, practice groups, all

400

00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:15,240

kinds of support for family members.

401

00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:17,660

with a loved one struggling

with an addiction.

402

00:23:17,970 --> 00:23:19,740

And they teach a model called C.

403

00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:20,010

R.

404

00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:20,050

A.

405

00:23:20,050 --> 00:23:20,310

F.

406

00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:20,330

T.

407

00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:24,160

So it stands for Community

Reinforcement and Family Training.

408

00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:25,065

And C.

409

00:23:25,065 --> 00:23:25,220

R.

410

00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:25,230

A.

411

00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:25,510

F.

412

00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:27,070

T., yeah, C.

413

00:23:27,070 --> 00:23:27,090

R.

414

00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:27,100

A.

415

00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:27,180

F.

416

00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:27,210

T.

417

00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:31,140

was developed, uh, a couple of decades

ago, probably 25 years ago now.

418

00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:38,110

And it is a, it's a model that has

been studied extensively and has been

419

00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:41,470

shown to increase the family's health.

420

00:23:41,980 --> 00:23:46,200

As addiction is a incredibly stressful

event for the whole family unit.

421

00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:50,960

So, CRAFT increases the family's

health as well as it actually

422

00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,070

makes their loved one more likely

to seek help for their addiction.

423

00:23:55,470 --> 00:23:58,870

So for families that

aren't sure, what do I do?

424

00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,570

Like how do I, I don't want to

enable them, but I also don't want

425

00:24:02,570 --> 00:24:04,780

to just cut off this family member.

426

00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:10,035

Be That I love, but I, what, how do I

engage here in a way that's helpful?

427

00:24:10,395 --> 00:24:12,335

Craft teaches you how to do that.

428

00:24:12,375 --> 00:24:17,035

It teaches you how to engage with

your loved one in a way that is not

429

00:24:17,055 --> 00:24:22,715

enabling, but does offer them positive

reinforcement for making positive choices.

430

00:24:23,135 --> 00:24:25,095

And it's really transformative.

431

00:24:25,095 --> 00:24:27,585

I, I hope everyone knows about it.

432

00:24:27,595 --> 00:24:29,765

And I hope that we get

to a point one day where.

433

00:24:30,580 --> 00:24:36,480

There's craft support groups, just like

there are AA support groups or Al Anon

434

00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,110

support groups or anything like that.

435

00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:44,610

Um, because one of the challenges

of, of the groups that are available

436

00:24:44,610 --> 00:24:47,520

currently is they tend to say.

437

00:24:47,825 --> 00:24:50,995

They tend to teach you how to

separate from the situation, but

438

00:24:50,995 --> 00:24:54,815

not how to actually engage in

the situation in a helpful way.

439

00:24:54,935 --> 00:24:56,725

And so that's what CRAFT does.

440

00:24:56,735 --> 00:25:01,555

So for any family member, highly

recommend checking out Allies in Recovery.

441

00:25:01,895 --> 00:25:07,165

Um, they have so many different resources

and just do phenomenal work resourcing

442

00:25:07,205 --> 00:25:11,345

families who are trying to walk with

their loved one through an addiction.

443

00:25:11,815 --> 00:25:15,945

Um, and then for people who are

struggling with an addiction, I think,

444

00:25:16,325 --> 00:25:20,820

you know, Part of the research for the

book, and the book really is a memoir.

445

00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:24,260

So if people are thinking, I'm not

interested in like a drug policy

446

00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:25,730

book, this isn't a drug policy book.

447

00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:26,570

This is a memoir.

448

00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:31,260

Um, this is just my, my, my journey, my

story, what I learned and what I think

449

00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:34,370

could, could, um, help us in the long run.

450

00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:39,190

Um, but one of the things that was so

interesting to me is how many people.

451

00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:43,730

Who have struggled with an addiction

that went through that addiction, having

452

00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:45,930

no clue what was happening to them.

453

00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,100

Like, why, what is, why

am I making these choices?

454

00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:52,410

Why can't I stop?

455

00:25:52,730 --> 00:25:57,090

Why, even though I love my family,

why did I just steal money from them?

456

00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:04,160

Like these things that are, that are so

against their values, their internal.

457

00:26:04,705 --> 00:26:09,275

Um, character and yet they're

behaving in ways that are not in

458

00:26:09,275 --> 00:26:13,885

line with who they want to be and

who, who they are at their core.

459

00:26:14,515 --> 00:26:20,225

Um, and I think Curious offers

them a way of learning about that.

460

00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:25,720

Um, I talk about Rat Park, which was a,

uh, experiment that was done a number of

461

00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:36,720

years ago to, um, to help, uh, figure out,

is it the drug that is so powerful or is

462

00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,630

it something else that's actually the real

reason why people are using that drug?

463

00:26:41,670 --> 00:26:43,610

So I tell that whole story and experiment.

464

00:26:43,610 --> 00:26:48,455

It's fascinating and, um, curious,

but it helps give people answers.

465

00:26:49,505 --> 00:26:53,285

My mom always used to say hooks

to hang things on, like a way to

466

00:26:53,285 --> 00:26:56,725

understand, um, what's happening,

whether that's a loved one or

467

00:26:56,725 --> 00:26:58,425

whether that's a person in addiction.

468

00:26:59,315 --> 00:27:02,105

And I've actually had a lot of

people in recovery who have read

469

00:27:02,105 --> 00:27:05,755

the book and said it was a really

healing thing for them to read.

470

00:27:05,775 --> 00:27:11,935

I think just, um, Yeah, that, that

has really touched me that it has been

471

00:27:12,355 --> 00:27:17,485

helpful, even though I'm not a person who

has experienced a substance use disorder

472

00:27:17,485 --> 00:27:22,495

myself, um, but in talking to so many

people and telling so many other people's

473

00:27:22,505 --> 00:27:26,895

stories in the book, it's, it's my

story, but there's also lots of different

474

00:27:26,895 --> 00:27:31,755

people's stories who were included in it,

um, including parents of children who have

475

00:27:31,755 --> 00:27:36,130

struggled, um, parents who've lost loved

ones, Just lots of different stories.

476

00:27:36,140 --> 00:27:40,390

So I think it is for anyone

who is touched with this issue.

477

00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,650

Um, my experience has been, I've

been hearing from people who

478

00:27:44,650 --> 00:27:47,150

have said, this is so helpful.

479

00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,870

It's so hopeful, gives us a, a

way to see a different future

480

00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:54,980

that we can be part of where.

481

00:27:55,335 --> 00:27:57,925

There's a lot more healing

and a lot less harm.

482

00:27:58,925 --> 00:27:59,405

Mm hmm.

483

00:27:59,615 --> 00:28:00,185

I like that.

484

00:28:00,245 --> 00:28:00,655

Yeah.

485

00:28:00,655 --> 00:28:05,735

It's because, yeah, we do need better

approaches and not just, I'm a believer

486

00:28:05,735 --> 00:28:12,235

that prisons are not actually, you

know, biblically speaking, it's not,

487

00:28:12,305 --> 00:28:15,815

it wasn't designed to cure anything.

488

00:28:15,945 --> 00:28:16,205

It was.

489

00:28:16,765 --> 00:28:23,925

Designed for, um, punishment in a way not

to try and treat the person, but, um, but

490

00:28:23,925 --> 00:28:27,925

yeah, but we've lost that way, I think,

and that's and we're finding that out

491

00:28:27,955 --> 00:28:30,145

because a lot of people are not changing.

492

00:28:30,145 --> 00:28:32,015

It's not meant to change the person.

493

00:28:32,025 --> 00:28:32,315

Right?

494

00:28:32,555 --> 00:28:34,265

So it can't change the person.

495

00:28:34,545 --> 00:28:35,505

So with.

496

00:28:36,065 --> 00:28:40,815

You know, I love this training craft

and just getting into things like that.

497

00:28:40,825 --> 00:28:42,625

Maybe they can bring

that into the prisons.

498

00:28:42,625 --> 00:28:43,825

Do they have that at all?

499

00:28:44,115 --> 00:28:45,415

Well, that's for the family members.

500

00:28:45,465 --> 00:28:51,095

But what about, you know, um, what

was the other one for individuals?

501

00:28:51,125 --> 00:28:53,115

Is there any individual one?

502

00:28:53,725 --> 00:28:58,535

Well, there are different, um, so

there are prisons or jails that do

503

00:28:58,545 --> 00:29:00,145

have different recovery programs.

504

00:29:00,155 --> 00:29:03,035

Some of them run celebrate

recovery programs in there.

505

00:29:03,365 --> 00:29:07,635

Um, there are some jails that

are starting to offer medication

506

00:29:07,655 --> 00:29:09,195

for opioid use disorder.

507

00:29:09,195 --> 00:29:13,015

That's a really helpful tool for a lot

of people to stabilize their lives.

508

00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:16,510

Um, and not be using

contaminated substances.

509

00:29:16,910 --> 00:29:20,090

There are some jails that are

beginning to allow that in, in jails,

510

00:29:20,090 --> 00:29:25,100

which is a, is phenomenal because

it is, um, at this point, the most

511

00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:28,930

effective form of treatment that

we know of for, um, an opioid use

512

00:29:28,930 --> 00:29:30,650

disorder that is available at least.

513

00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:33,810

And so, um, yeah, there's

lots of different.

514

00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:35,800

options.

515

00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:39,380

Very few tend to be available

in jails and prisons.

516

00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:41,920

And, you know, to your point,

I actually was just reading,

517

00:29:42,420 --> 00:29:44,100

um, a study that came out.

518

00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:50,800

It was an analysis of like 116 other

studies on the role of incarceration

519

00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:54,680

on, um, recidivism, like on a person,

whether or not they're going to

520

00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,530

commit another crime in the future.

521

00:29:57,220 --> 00:30:02,960

And they found that incarceration has

no different impact on the rates of

522

00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,975

recidivism than like Um, probation does.

523

00:30:07,185 --> 00:30:14,535

So, being, to your point, incarceration

is, um, it really is only useful as a

524

00:30:14,725 --> 00:30:16,645

separating of someone from the community.

525

00:30:16,665 --> 00:30:21,995

Like, if they are so dangerous that

they, they must be held in a specific

526

00:30:21,995 --> 00:30:23,685

location away from the community.

527

00:30:23,686 --> 00:30:23,988

for joining me.

528

00:30:24,365 --> 00:30:27,665

It can do that, but it does not impact.

529

00:30:27,665 --> 00:30:32,875

It does not help people make better future

decisions any more than just being put on

530

00:30:33,055 --> 00:30:35,265

probation would, which is pretty shocking.

531

00:30:35,305 --> 00:30:39,285

I mean, that's, we've got lots of people

in prison for whom the, the reason we

532

00:30:39,285 --> 00:30:42,595

put them there is because we're hoping

it changes their future behavior.

533

00:30:42,995 --> 00:30:46,055

Um, and yeah, it's not designed for that.

534

00:30:46,075 --> 00:30:47,845

It can't, it's not doing that.

535

00:30:47,865 --> 00:30:49,235

It really can't do that.

536

00:30:49,235 --> 00:30:53,685

I mean, you're, you're asking people

to find healing for deep wounds.

537

00:30:54,195 --> 00:31:01,795

In a place where violence and abuse

and, uh, and drugs are rampant,

538

00:31:01,855 --> 00:31:03,735

people can get drugs easily in prison.

539

00:31:03,735 --> 00:31:07,385

And so it's not helping them

overcome their addiction.

540

00:31:07,385 --> 00:31:10,765

There certainly are a few people who

have a life changing experience there,

541

00:31:10,765 --> 00:31:13,415

but the vast majority, um, do not.

542

00:31:13,425 --> 00:31:16,045

And it makes life, um, a whole lot harder.

543

00:31:16,255 --> 00:31:16,805

Mm hmm.

544

00:31:16,945 --> 00:31:17,345

Yeah.

545

00:31:17,435 --> 00:31:21,655

Now, if we can just get people to

see that point and, uh, help find

546

00:31:21,655 --> 00:31:23,825

the solution, you know, and use.

547

00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,690

The tool of prison appropriately,

you know, just like you said,

548

00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:32,440

some people don't need to be there

and they need to be in treatment.

549

00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:37,350

Maybe it's, you know, but it's, it

just depends on the circumstances and

550

00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:42,010

the person, you know, it's not for

everybody, but yeah, this is very good.

551

00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:47,150

I like that you took the time, you did

this memoir cause I was going to ask

552

00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:49,470

you, you know, how did you know this?

553

00:31:49,470 --> 00:31:52,140

How did you know, and just

listening to people's stories.

554

00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,890

And I think it's going to resonate.

555

00:31:54,575 --> 00:31:58,785

With you know people that haven't

been exposed to this because

556

00:31:59,065 --> 00:32:01,175

how would they know you know?

557

00:32:01,215 --> 00:32:06,075

Yeah, you're making judgments without much

information, and that's just a tendency.

558

00:32:06,075 --> 00:32:10,165

We all have yeah No, we're gonna feel

it was something if we don't know so

559

00:32:10,165 --> 00:32:16,205

that's right So we just make it up you

know so and then we like well, that's

560

00:32:16,206 --> 00:32:17,940

that's That's not what I believe in.

561

00:32:17,970 --> 00:32:21,950

And, uh, thank you for seeing that

it was a difference in a person.

562

00:32:22,410 --> 00:32:28,000

Uh, the mother is an individual that

is going through some things and, and

563

00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,330

we do really need to get to the core,

like what's the fundamental problems

564

00:32:33,330 --> 00:32:38,510

and start addressing that, and a lot

of times I'm seeing all these government

565

00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,400

programs meant to help is always harmful.

566

00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:43,780

Yeah.

567

00:32:44,030 --> 00:32:44,200

Yeah.

568

00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,510

Always turns out to be very harmful

because, we have not the right

569

00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,100

things in place and some of the people

are not curious, not reading your

570

00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,020

book and just doing the research.

571

00:32:57,020 --> 00:32:59,180

They're just throwing it out there.

572

00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:02,620

I just got this degree in here and

there and I know what I'm doing.

573

00:33:02,620 --> 00:33:07,220

And it's like, you, how can you Do

that and you haven't even looked at

574

00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:11,270

it and don't even, you know, it's

not working cause they, they don't

575

00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:14,800

go back and look at the stats and

stuff like, Hey, you need to fix this.

576

00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:15,590

It's not working.

577

00:33:15,730 --> 00:33:17,670

So yeah, this is wonderful.

578

00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:18,750

, is there anything else?

579

00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:23,110

, as we wrap this up, you want to

say to the audience about curious,

580

00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,070

I know I'm going to put it in the

show notes, how to contact you.

581

00:33:27,330 --> 00:33:33,740

I actually joined and subscribed to get

you because, you know, just to stay.

582

00:33:33,975 --> 00:33:35,915

Posted on what's needed.

583

00:33:36,135 --> 00:33:40,085

It seems like you've got a really good

handle on, , the lawmakers and what's

584

00:33:40,085 --> 00:33:43,335

coming out and hopefully getting them to.

585

00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:47,570

, to write some better bills, um,

some laws and put it in place.

586

00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:52,800

And hopefully we do something, I hate

to say it about that border, how it's

587

00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,200

getting in here, but what, what would you,

what else would you say that's really,

588

00:33:57,230 --> 00:34:03,220

you want to say to the audience to about

curious about, uh, especially people who

589

00:34:03,220 --> 00:34:06,090

haven't been exposed to drugs at all.

590

00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:07,050

Yeah.

591

00:34:07,580 --> 00:34:07,940

Yeah.

592

00:34:07,940 --> 00:34:11,070

So I'd say, um, so I've got some

free copies for your listeners.

593

00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:15,760

So the first five people that email us,

we'll send a free copy of curious to you.

594

00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,710

You can email us at

curious at end it for good.

595

00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:21,739

com.

596

00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:22,920

That's like E N D.

597

00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:24,340

And it for good.

598

00:34:24,889 --> 00:34:25,100

com.

599

00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:27,030

So curious at, and if we're good.

600

00:34:27,150 --> 00:34:30,210

com shoot us an email, first five

people will send a free copy of it too.

601

00:34:30,630 --> 00:34:32,389

Um, you can also get it on Amazon.

602

00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,600

The audio book will be out

in just a couple of weeks.

603

00:34:34,610 --> 00:34:36,090

There's a Kindle version.

604

00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:39,350

Um, and there's also, we have

just some resources on our

605

00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:40,670

website that you can get to.

606

00:34:40,670 --> 00:34:41,739

You can go to end it for good.

607

00:34:41,889 --> 00:34:43,060

com slash freebies.

608

00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,690

And we have three ways you can help

someone struggling with an addiction.

609

00:34:47,594 --> 00:34:51,195

We also have one called, um,

five keys to having productive

610

00:34:51,195 --> 00:34:53,165

conversations on polarizing topics.

611

00:34:54,435 --> 00:34:57,595

If you've ever tried to, ever tried

to share your passion about something

612

00:34:57,595 --> 00:35:01,275

with someone and you just feel like

you hit the brick wall, um, we've,

613

00:35:01,275 --> 00:35:04,805

we've learned a lot doing, uh, lots

of events and lots of speaking and

614

00:35:04,805 --> 00:35:07,245

talking with lots of people about how.

615

00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,370

How can we help people be, be

curious about whatever our issue is?

616

00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,490

For us, this is this issue of drugs

and addiction, but for other people,

617

00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,540

it's other passions and that's great.

618

00:35:17,540 --> 00:35:21,360

So if you have a passion for something

and you're trying to figure out how to

619

00:35:21,370 --> 00:35:26,400

help other people be open to listening,

um, we wanted to just help people.

620

00:35:26,775 --> 00:35:30,925

Be able to, to share their passions

with the world in a more productive way.

621

00:35:30,925 --> 00:35:32,595

And so you can go to end it for good.

622

00:35:32,715 --> 00:35:34,105

com slash freebies.

623

00:35:34,235 --> 00:35:36,685

And yeah, we would love to hear from you.

624

00:35:36,715 --> 00:35:43,365

Um, uh, this, this type of thing, every

movement in history, it starts with.

625

00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:48,380

Just regular people, regular people who

make it their passion, who make it the

626

00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:52,340

thing that they're going to put some

time and effort into, um, into sharing

627

00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:56,140

it with other people, we grew into

an organization because people just

628

00:35:56,140 --> 00:35:59,720

invited other people, Hey, you should

come and come to one of these events.

629

00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:01,630

Hey, you should read this article.

630

00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,750

Hey, you should read this book.

631

00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:04,330

Um, it's not because.

632

00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:09,450

We can reach everyone, it's because

through all of the people who have

633

00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:12,620

connected with this movement, they

are now taking the movement and

634

00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:14,260

helping to reach other people with it.

635

00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:17,050

Um, and that is how all movements grow.

636

00:36:17,820 --> 00:36:22,690

And we hope this is one where we look

back in 50 years and we all just shake

637

00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:27,430

our heads and say, I cannot believe that

we used to think that incarceration was

638

00:36:27,460 --> 00:36:31,840

going to solve addiction, that it, that

it becomes just something that seems,

639

00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:37,710

um, unbelievable to us, that that would

have been a time in history and that we

640

00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:41,420

would leave that behind, just like we've

left a lot of other things behind that

641

00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:43,010

have needed to be changed over time.

642

00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:47,150

And we have realized when we, when we

learn something new, when we know better.

643

00:36:47,610 --> 00:36:48,510

It's time to do better.

644

00:36:48,910 --> 00:36:52,420

Um, and I think this is one of those

areas where we can, that's excellent.

645

00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:57,810

I love this approach because, you know,

what you're doing is helping with the

646

00:36:57,810 --> 00:37:01,730

communication because it has to start

with the communication and being able

647

00:37:01,730 --> 00:37:04,465

to listen, you know, be able to see.

648

00:37:04,835 --> 00:37:09,175

Translate, be able to receive if you

don't have a good receiver, you're

649

00:37:09,175 --> 00:37:11,615

not going to understand the knowledge.

650

00:37:11,665 --> 00:37:13,035

So this is really, really good.

651

00:37:13,035 --> 00:37:18,455

I really thank you, Christina audience

again, the first five people get

652

00:37:18,455 --> 00:37:20,915

free books and tell them prisoners.

653

00:37:20,955 --> 00:37:22,645

Pardon me, TJ sent you.

654

00:37:23,045 --> 00:37:25,645

So I really thank you for coming.

655

00:37:25,645 --> 00:37:30,695

Thank you for sharing your knowledge

and your experience and just being

656

00:37:30,735 --> 00:37:33,675

honest and open yourself about what.

657

00:37:34,170 --> 00:37:35,820

We don't know what you don't know.

658

00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:39,700

So, and we all need to do that

because we don't know everything.

659

00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:41,520

We need to just listen at times.

660

00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:43,540

So, and thank you all for listening.

661

00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:45,640

Well, that's it for today.

662

00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:47,470

Thank you for listening.

663

00:37:47,540 --> 00:37:50,360

And may you have a week

filled with blessings.

664

00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:51,240

God bless.

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