Shownotes
Ben Stacy of Forge Relations returns to State of the Second to talk about how firearms brands need to market as 2026 arrives. Hosts John Fahrner and Kaylee open with the core problem: the dedicated, everyday gun owners are already reached, so the real question is how to get the next group interested. Ben names them plainly, the young mother worried about her safety and the recent college grad into overlanding or sports, and argues the first move is going where the customer already is. That means TikTok and YouTube, the platforms new owners actually use, even when those platforms are hostile to the industry. Kaylee adds the women's-side view: empowerment has shifted from a buzzword to a daily reality, with moms seeking concealed carry options, stop the bleed training, and firearm safety classes for their kids.
A theme runs through the whole conversation: people buy from people, not from companies. Ben pushes brands to be their own best content creator, find creators inside their community, tell the backstory, and show behind the curtain. He uses Palmetto State Armory as the example, both when products sell out and when a project gets canceled and Cameron gets on camera to explain why, the kind of transparency that earns trust. He and Kaylee argue that loyalty follows when values align, and that in the firearms space, where the product ties to a constitutional right, brands should draw a line in the sand rather than stay in the middle. John presses on the value proposition: new buyers care less about metal coatings and round counts and more about whether a product works, fits a budget, and can protect their family. The group also breaks down a real shift, that new owners want one multifaceted tool rather than a separate gun for each job.
The closing Soapbox segment is the bluntest stretch. Ben's spicy take: get over yourself, go where the people are, work within the platforms' limits, and stop complaining that you cannot run ads. John shares hard experience building a TikTok page to 120,000, getting deplatformed, and rebuilding it twice, with a clip that hit a million views and produced sales. Both land on the same place: marketing is experimenting and being comfortable with failure, building a community over time, and staying consistent instead of giving up on a platform after a slow start. Ben's parting line ties it together: the more you try to sell your product, the less of it you will sell. Be genuine, stand for something, and connect with people. Forge Relations has been in the gun and defense space since 2013, online at forgerelations.com.
Questions this episode answers
Who are the new gun owners brands should be trying to reach in 2026?
Ben Stacy points to the customers beyond the dedicated everyday gun owner, like the young mother worried about her safety and the recent college grad into overlanding or sports. The dedicated crowd is already reached, so growth comes from getting these next groups interested.
Why should firearms companies be on TikTok and YouTube even when those platforms are hostile to the industry?
Stacy's core rule is to go where the customer already is, and new owners actually use TikTok and YouTube. Brands should work within the platforms' limits rather than avoid them just because the platforms are unfriendly to firearms.
How can a firearms brand market itself when it can't run paid ads on the major platforms?
Instead of complaining about the ad ban, brands should build community through organic content, become their own best content creator, and stay consistent on the platforms new buyers use. Marketing here is experimenting, getting comfortable with failure, and building an audience over time.
Why do new buyers care more about the value proposition than specs like metal coatings and round counts?
New owners care whether a product works, fits their budget, and can protect their family, not the technical details that excite enthusiasts. The value proposition speaks to that buyer; spec talk does not.
How does a company turn from a manufacturer into a lifestyle brand customers stay loyal to?
Loyalty follows when values align, so brands should tell their backstory, show behind the curtain, and find creators inside their community. People buy from people, not from companies, and standing for something earns trust over time.
What does Palmetto State Armory do that earns consumer trust?
Palmetto State Armory shows transparency in both good and bad moments, including when a project gets canceled and Cameron gets on camera to explain why. That honesty, not just hype when products sell out, is what builds trust.
What should a company do when it gets deplatformed after building an audience?
Rebuild and stay consistent. Host John Fahrner grew a TikTok page to 120,000, got deplatformed, and rebuilt it twice, eventually landing a clip that hit a million views and drove sales.
Why does trying harder to sell your product end up selling less of it?
Stacy's point is that the more you push the sale, the less people buy, because audiences respond to genuine connection over a hard pitch. Be genuine, stand for something, and connect with people, and the sales follow.
Chapters
- 00:00 — Welcome back, Ben Stacy of Forge Relations
- 00:29 — 2026 outlook: the slowdown and reaching the next group
- 02:15 — Going where the customer is, not where they're dying off
- 03:34 — The young mother and the mindset shift on TikTok
- 06:05 — Personal responsibility meets practical application
- 08:31 — Firearms as one tool: educate, don't just sell
- 11:20 — Be your own best content creator; people buy from people
- 13:51 — Loyalty when values align; drawing a line in the sand
- 18:37 — Value proposition over buzzwords for new buyers
- 20:40 — Kaylee's first gun and the why behind buying
- 26:08 — New owners want one multifaceted gun
- 32:29 — Spend a week behind the gun counter
- 34:55 — Accessibility and events like GOALS and Women's Range Day
- 39:19 — Soapbox: get over yourself and go where the people are
- 41:22 — Deplatforming, experimenting, and staying consistent
- 47:27 — Sell less by selling harder; where to find Forge
About the guest
Ben Stacy is from Forge Relations, a digital marketing firm in the gun industry and defense space that has been doing this work since 2013. The company can be found online at forgerelations.com and on the same handle across socials. He is a returning guest on the State of the Second podcast and describes himself as a parent of a toddler.
Key quotes
"you have to go where the customer is." — Ben Stacy
"you're not buying from a company, you're buying from a person." — Ben Stacy
"the more you try to sell your product, the lesser your product you will sell." — Ben Stacy
"I think a lot of it boils down to personal responsibility meeting practical application." — Kaylee
"The people who are the loudest on the Internet are the people who want the new fast, tactical, cool, fast thing." — John Fahrner
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast. I'm Kaylee.
John Fahrner:And I'm John. And today we're joined by Ben Stacy from Forge Relations. Ben, welcome back to the podcast and thank you for having us.
Ben Stacy:Thank you for being here.
John Fahrner:So instead of our normal rapid fire segments, I think we know Ben well enough at this point. I mean, do you like pineapple in your pizza, Ben?
Ben Stacy:I do.
John Fahrner:See?
Ben Stacy:I do. Enough. Enough said. Enough said. All right, let's get it. Let's get into this.
John Fahrner: coming up. We're coming up on:We've got the zero dollar tax stamp, we have all this stuff. What should we look at from a consumer standpoint from firearms marketing as things start going on further?
Ben Stacy: Yeah,:And I think a lot of people are looking at how do we reach the next group, like the core gun owners, the ones that are in this every day, watching all of our favorite YouTubers, they're already accounted for. Like we're already talking to them. We're reaching them.
So how do we reach the young mother who's concerned about her safety or the, you know, the kid fresh out of college that is interested in overlanding or sports? How do we get them to get interested in guns? I think that's, that's the main question that we're asking right now.
And, and there's, there's a ton of different answers which we, we can dive into.
John Fahrner:Yeah, I mean we're, we've gone are the days of specific marketing tactics.
You know, we've seen, there's certain marketing tactics we do, but we really need to get into that next generation of firearms owners that, like you said, the young mothers of things like that. So how do we tap into those potential new clienteles? I mean, we talked about it before. GOA has reached out to the Hispanic market with the Forza 2A.
You've got the Women's Empowerment Program with Empowered 2A. So how do we start branching out into different markets and segments as the year goes on?
Ben Stacy:You guys do a really good job of it. Actually. GWA as a whole does a phenomenal job of reaching the emerging markets. The. Let's see, how can I put this nicely?
There's, there are other organizations that are still trying to talk to the, the gun owner that is literally dying off. Unfortunately, I think on the marketing side There's a lot of companies too that are going through that same thing.
Whether or not they are not adjusting to where the customer is. And that's, that's kind of step number one is you have to go where the customer is.
I mean, they're watching TikTok videos, they're, they're on YouTube. They are people that own guns, but they're not gun people.
John Fahrner:Well, and that gets into a great topic that I like to talk about a lot is from the three of us in this room. We are what would be called gun people. We own more than one gun.
When you have to look at it from the perspective of the average gun owner and the average gun owner to me is somebody who has a pistol for home or self defense or concealed carry a rifle for either hunting or home defense or a shotgun for the same reason. It's one to three guns. It's the average gun owner.
I think that demographic is a growing demographic and that's something that as a whole the industry needs to start looking into.
Ben Stacy:Yeah. And I would say it's even those that are considering or don't even realize that they should carry out. Right.
Like let's, let's boil it down to a young, a young mother, right? Like I have a toddler. So this one, this one's close to home where she's thinking about growing the family when I'm at work.
How can she protect herself? We're lucky because she's very aware of what, you know, of what we do in the world we live in. So she's had a lot of special access to these things.
But what other mothers are doing is they're going to where they consume content, which is right now TikTok, like TikTok is huge. That's when we, we try to really hammer home for companies forgetting all the policy and political side of all that.
The fact is that this next generation of consumers is on that platform. I can guarantee you a lot of the people listening are absorbing TikTok content because they have nailed the algorithm.
They feed you exactly what you want to see and they'll keep feeding it to you. And to end up in some very weird rabbit holes, which I know we've all been there.
But from the, you know, it, it starts out with I'm, I'm, it's a weird one because I'm, I'm speaking to the women here, right. This is not my world.
But like outfit, Outfit of the Day videos, ootd, you know, you see, you see all those, those young women doing here's what I'm wearing. And now there's this entire new kind of market showing up where it's, they're doing those videos, but now they're concealed carrying.
How can I conceal carry in a dress or this is the XYZ bag that I'm using to be able to carry or you know, even forget firearms for a second. Just like, like self awareness when you're putting your kid in your car seat.
How to, how to block your door from easy access with your, with your stroller or with your, with your carts when you're putting, when you're putting your kid in the car. You know, it's a lot of those things where they're beginning to have a mindset shift.
It's not so much that they are thinking about, I'm going to go out and train and I'm going to do, I'm going to be, you know, the next Travis Haley or something. It's more of the world that they're becoming aware of, the world that we live in. Especially with what has happened in the past few months.
I think a lot of us, the younger generation has realized that it's, it's not all, you know, rainbows and unicorns. So they're beginning to do their own research and figuring out what, what they need to be doing.
Kaylee:Yeah, I think a lot of it boils down to personal responsibility meeting practical application.
Ben Stacy:Yeah.
Kaylee: of things where we are at in:But I think as we see more people really looking at their surroundings, looking at the temperature of population, politics and as, especially as, you know, a mom with young kids, knowing that I will do anything by any means necessary to protect my kids, you look at things differently and it's a good thing and it's a good mental exercise. It can get a little dark if you always stay in that, you know, thought pattern of oh, you know, what's going to happen next.
You know, I'm not saying that you should run every scenario ever to ever exist in your brain, but I think there are a lot of moms out there that, you know, want to get classes and conceal carry, see the different types of ways to conceal carry. They want to get the stop the bleed training. They want their kids to have access to firearm safety classes.
And I think there's a major shift happening where we are now to a point where empowerment is not just a buzzword or something that people say. It is a reality that is happening day to day with thousands, if not millions of women across the country who don't want to be a victim.
They want to be a victor. And that's a fundamental shift that I think we're starting to see, and I hope that momentum continues.
Ben Stacy:And it starts with mindset.
I think that's probably the biggest change that we've seen recently is that we're beginning to think about this because of the, the situations that we're finding ourselves in just as a, as a society, unfortunately, you have to be thinking about your surroundings, which is what you should always be doing. Right. But because of recent events that has been put front and center to, to all of us on what they, what they should be doing.
And it, I would say it probably doesn't start with guns. Right? Like, firearms are still just a tool. It's just a piece of the puzzle. You mentioned, like, stop the bleed. Like, you're ten times more likely.
I don't know the real statistic, but you're significantly more likely to come across a car accident where you need to learn how to pack someone's wound or put a tourniquet on them or something like that. Right. So we're seeing that across the board as a community is people are looking for that information. And it's not even left or right.
You know, it's, how can I make sure that I'm still around for my kids? And like, now we're getting into a whole conversation about health.
You have, you have this entire shift happening in, in the world right now, which is very much a good thing.
You know, I think firearms companies need to focus less on just trying to sell the gun and more about how they can educate the consumer to how that gun they're selling or whatever product it is, fits into this lifestyle that they're trying to create.
John Fahrner:No, I think you're absolutely right. And it is, it's a whole shift in mentality where you. Previously, a lot of people were thinking, and we started seeing this during the pandemic.
And you're taking your personal responsibility into your own hands. And the culture shift and the mind shift now of, well, I need to be my own first responder becomes very.
And with the companies out there and things like that, we're seeing some of them take advantage of that, that shift and, and really build out a marketing plan where it comes to talking about the lifestyle and the change of mindset and how to do it. The thing I want to, because I'm already reading the comments in my mind.
To rewind just slightly is TikTok is, is a great platform to reach out to those younger audience. What do advice would you give out to people? Because we're looking at a platform and people are going to comment away.
So I know you're saying this right now. Tick tock is so anti gun and this and that.
How from a firearms company's perspective or just as a, as a community perspective, how do we get that kind of content out there to bring in these people so they can absorb this content?
Ben Stacy:Yeah, there's a bunch of things that go through my brain. The first one is the way the algorithms across all the platforms work now.
And we're not going to go into that rabbit hole too much, but it's less about how many followers you have. A person with zero followers could have a video spike and do a million views, right?
And then that opens up an entire little world for them and opportunity on that front. But that's where businesses should be looking at is being your own best content creator.
Identifying people that are part of your core community that have the potential to explode and create really good content and then work with those ones that do and kind of go down that side of things. That's what I would call the kind of the creator marketplace and what the rest of the entire world does with everything else influencers.
And then on the other side, they companies really need to be their voice like that. That's what we're encouraging is they know their product best, they know their messaging best.
The whole like buy this on discount or buy this because it's made of this, this material or buy this because it's the best thing ever. Like all that's gone out the door, like that's, that is still what the vast majority of our industry does.
But you're not, you're not buying from a company, you're buying from a person. Or at least that's what consumers want. Right? They want, they want to buy from another person. They want to know the story.
They want to make a connection with that company.
So we're all, we're talking to companies, encouraging them to, to tell that backstory, show, show behind the curtain, show the, the good and the bad, you know, and help the consumer understand that they're people too. And you're going to, you're going to see an immediate, you know, an immediate response. I can give a, I think I can give this answer.
You know, Palmetto State Armory is a great example of this because when they have things go very well. You see their guns sell out nearly immediately.
And then when things are taking longer or a project gets canceled, Cameron still gets on camera and talks about. He's saying, hey, like this is why this didn't work out. We're gonna, you know, we're unfortunately have to. We have to shut the project down.
And like you're talking about comments. You scroll through those comments, they're like, holy crap. We've never seen a company be transparent like this before. And that's. I guess that's the.
At the core of it is that we're so stuck or we're so stick of sick of just being fed by this. Buy that. Like we want to build a connection with a company and that happens through the people within that company.
Kaylee:Yeah, I think it goes beyond just, you know, the face of the company. I think that loyalty happens when values align. And for so long, you had to guess what a company's value system was. It wasn't something that.
And to a degree still isn't something that is talked about openly.
And, you know, I think that we've seen a lot of this happen from the political side where you look at companies like Verizon or AT&T and you find out, wait a minute, my phone bill is going to gun control what's happening. Or you hear of other companies, what their values are, and you realize that it might not be your value system at all.
And in the firearms industry, it's kind of unique because there is a innate sense of politics because it is tied to a natural right, constitutionally protected right. And so why not share that value system publicly?
And I think that's where a lot of, lot of the loyalty lies, when people fundamentally jive with the brand as a whole.
And I think that's how a lot of brands have turned from just a manufacturer to a lifestyle brand to having those loyal customers that will go around even wearing the T shirt proudly and boldly proclaiming, this is. This is what. What I purchase.
Ben Stacy:Yeah. And it can, it can be on the, you know, the negative side to that is if the company doesn't get on that train, then it can kill them.
Like, they're not going to be able to survive, especially in our industry this year and for the next couple of years at the very least, like, if you're not doing something to differentiate yourself and you're still just trying to make a stand on that your product's the best for XYZ reason, you're not, it's not going to get you as far as it used to. And the consumer is smart. The consumer really is. They do their research. You know, I'm going to use the young mother example again.
My wife did all the research into all of the different things that go into, you know, what our child eats and what we put them in. All of the things. Right. Like, and I, I just kind of absorb that information from her.
And it's been, it's been a learning experience, but it's the same, it's the same thing with this, like, with, with firearms. It's a. And anything within this space, medical, et cetera. It's an investment no matter what. Right.
Most of our stuff is, most of the stuff being sold is not cheap. So people want to do their research and how they're consuming that information has evolved.
We're talking about it like all these social platforms and whatnot. And you want to make sure that the message that you're putting out is one that connects with your, your target customer.
You want to, you want to find the consumers that. Or you want the consumers to understand where you're coming from. Like, we tell, we tell our clients all the time.
You have to find that line in the sand. Like you, you might, you don't need to shout it from the rooftops. Let's just say, like, obviously you, you'd hope firearms manufacturers are Pro2A.
You'd hope, but let's just use that as our example. Right?
You have to find a line in the stand in the sand because if, if the customer doesn't associate with that, they're probably not going to buy anyways. And if you, if you kind of try to stay in the middle ground and you never talk about it, then there's nothing for them to latch on.
To be like, that is what I believe.
That is why I support, once again, like, using psa, they have been very vocal and they, as you guys are very well aware, put their money where their mouth is in the fight. And that's gone a long way with consumers.
And you see that with a whole bunch of other companies, too, on whether it's like, family values or obviously the fight for our rights, et cetera. When a company stands up, people perk up and they're like, oh, wow, that's who I want to support.
Because they're actually fighting for what I believe in. I'm one person. I can give them some money to help support that fight and we can get this across the finish line.
company. I think moving into: John Fahrner:The thing I kind of want to touch on, you brought up something about, you know, metal and things like that. And you and I like when I went to go buy my first gun, like that was a thing like you looked up everything.
I know when you bought your first gun, it was more for you wanted your own personal protection. It was value driven.
You know, where do you find to, to reach these new audiences and things like that, you've got to find this, this combination of value driven.
But the information that the consumer is looking for because not a lot of people care about, oh, is it a melanite coated slide, nitride and barrel and cold hammer, cold hammer, forge, everything. I'm not gonna die on that hill today. But it's not. You could use buzzwords.
Those are buzzwords when it comes to the new consumer where they're educating themselves. They more want to, in my opinion, they're more looking for a value proposition because money's tight. They're looking for a value proposition.
They want to know it works and they want to get something that they can trust, defend their, their family with. And not to keep piggybacking off of psa, but you see like companies like PSA coming out with a very value driven product.
You see companies like Taurus come out with a very value driven product. And if you talk to any content creators out there, those are the videos that take off most of the time for them because of the value driven product.
hundred dollars to spend on a: Ben Stacy:Sure.
John Fahrner:So I mean Kaylee, what do you think from, from your perspective, Because I was different, I was a gun nerd before I bought my first gun.
From your perspective, you know, was that something that you took into consideration when you bought your first gun was metal and this and that and this?
Kaylee:No. I don't know how many people buy their first gun in quite the position that I was in. I lived in a very well for East Tennessee.
What would be considered like high crime area right off of the university. There was an incident at the apartment complex that I lived in.
Took a good hard look in the mirror, realized I'm a whole 5 foot nothing, weighed at the time maybe 110 pounds and was like I don't like my odds in any of this situation. And so I Was broke a college student and needed protection.
And so I got a clearance gun because it was the only line item that was necessary outside of price was that it, it could shoot. And if it hit those two boxes, I was, we were good. So I don't know how many people are in that position. Hopefully not many. Hope.
Hopefully if you are in that position, you are able to, to purchase something.
But I do think that there is a, an emotional response that we have to take into account here that I don't think is talked about often enough with what are the new gun owners? Because that's really what this episode is about. Like who are the new gun owners?
And how is this going to encourage more people to get into the second Amendment community? And what I think we first have to look at is well, what, what are firearms mostly purchase for?
And most of the time it's self defense, home defense, it's a way to protect your family. And so, well, why is that important? And it's because we have intrinsic value. We know that we should be able to defend ourselves.
We understand as parents that we should be able to defend our family. We will do anything to defend our family. And that is for most people the why we spend so much time.
And I'm not saying like us in this room, I'm just saying like us as a generalized community. We spend so much time thinking of what's going to be the next best product, what's going to be the next biggest thing on the horizon.
And sometimes we miss the fundamentals. And it's crazy for us of all people to miss the fundamentals because we're the ones that are preaching, always go back to the fundamentals.
But why do people feel compelled to purchase a firearm? Why do we believe that we have the right to defend ourselves? Why do we go get training?
Why do we spend money once we get the first gun on, a better gun the next time and better optics and a better holster. And we all have the graveyard box of holsters because we've kept upgrading. And it all goes back to the fundamental question of why.
And that to me is the piece that is.
It needs to be addressed, it needs to be, it needs to be revisited and revisited often because you know, we're in a very interesting time as a country, but we're also in a very interesting time as a two way community where we are seeing a new group of people come in, whether that is college students graduating and going out on their own and leaving the nest, so to speak, or whether that is moms or just or just somebody who feels unsafe in their environment. So while we're getting these new gun owners, we're also losing a lot of people that would normally be getting into hunting.
We're losing the generational, you know, hunters. And so if, if those two things are, are happening simultaneously, what is the underlying reasons behind those things?
What is the motivating factor for the individual? And I think a lot of it comes to, we have as a society wanted to victimize and villainize the traditional gun owners.
Oh, they're old white men or oh, they're those gun crazy people or oh, they are, oh they're, they're larping or whatever the, the, the discount phrase is to reject an entire group of Americans when in reality their husbands, their fathers, their mothers, their daughters, their brothers and sisters, their normal everyday Americans. But we want to treat them like a, a different class for often political reasons. And so sorry, I went way too long.
John Fahrner:But see, I think you discredit your own situation. I feel like that is something that is experienced by a lot of people who want to get into concealed carry.
Not just because unsafe environment, but they feel that there's something they need to do to take their own self protection in their own hands. And one of those, I mean you, you found, you hit the nail on the head. You found a gun that worked, that was a cost and, and there. And so on.
The biggest question that I've seen posed lately from, from people because unlike the three of us in this room who have been doing this for a long time, we buy guns, guns for specific purposes. It's, it's, we want this gun because we want this gun for home defense or this gun is because it's for this, this and this.
A lot of new gun owners want something that fits a multifaceted purpose.
Ben Stacy:Yeah.
John Fahrner:And what I'm seeing in a lot of questions that I've gotten from, from new gun owners or people looking to become new gun owners is I want the best of both worlds. I want a micro compact that I can use for concealed carry as well as use for home defense.
And a lot of times you, when you pose that question to, to myself and in my mind the f. My first answer is that's two separate things.
You want to, you want the biggest gun you can possibly have and shoot better for home defense because you want the round count, you want the capacity, you want the smallest gun that you can still carry with the capacity. They're two separate entities, but now they've, they can't be treated as two separate entities.
Because there's a lot of people who are getting into this and want something because of their budget, because of their restraints. They want something that's multifaceted and to, to die to go onto that.
I mean that's the same idea goes back to the hunters and the traditional hunters there. There are people who want to get into hunting but also want something for home protection.
You look at a shotgun or an AR15 or something around that and the traditional, what we would deem the traditional gun owner, the old white man, or what a lot of people would call the traditional gun owner, I think is, is no more where we're looking at a lot of new generation coming in that does not look at a gun. Looks at a gun, as I say gun as a tool, but looks at it as like I need one tool that can do all.
And while us here go, I want multi tool, I want a drill and a hammer and I want a impact driver in this. They want something that does it all.
Ben Stacy:Yeah, I mean I think, I think both of you guys just hit on the, the crux of the community and from a marketing perspective, all the above. Right.
From hunting to concealed carry to all the guns in the world, to one gun in the world, it's that as a community for the most part we're completely missing the mark when it comes from, from a marketing perspective on how to reach these people, which is it's. We don't, we truly don't understand what they're, where they're coming from. Right.
If we're trying to fit this entire new demographic into one box, that's just not how it is anymore. Like we're, everything's so diverse, you know, and that's for the entire world these days, you know, so the two.
Kaylee:A community is not monolithic.
Ben Stacy:Yeah. We need to be aware of that. Companies need to be more aware of that, of the needs of each of these people are gonna, are gonna differ.
So how do I, how do I market and message to them rather than just pretending, oh, like probably the worst assumption you can make and we've.
We all do this is that they're right wing, they're Christian, they believe all the same things that I believe when nowadays that's, that's really not the case. Right. And kind of your point, to your point, we naturally shoot ourselves in the foot.
We all love to make fun of LARPing and, and the, the old white bearded guy that wears 511. You know, we all do that. But that goes on the other side too is we, we're not even. We're not. Very rarely are we even considering the.
What's the what about the blue haired girl. Right? Like once again, we all love to make fun of that person.
Maybe I'll just speak for myself since we're on G O podcast but you know, we, we all have our pre, preconceived opinions. That's just natural. That's, that's human nature. Right. So how could we break out of that?
The question I'd be asking from a marketing, marketing perspective is how do you break out of that and then how do you turn that into practice? So breaking out of it is okay, let's, let's get some market data. Let's actually take a step back, look at what, where sales are going.
There's a ton of data out there already.
If you're a company, you should be analyzing where you're, what's going on, where your sales are, are coming from, how people are consuming their content, all of those different, those different factors, right? And then you hone in your messaging to, to target each one of those.
In the marketing side of things, we call it a Persona, but it's really just the customer, right? Like if, if we'll go back to that same. That, that mother, right?
If you have a young mother, she's watching like cooking channels or baking channels or whatever, you know, women do.
I'm sorry guys, that's a very different approach from the guy that is, that is watching, you know, the, some something on NASCAR or whatever else in that side of things or, or going out and doing bow hunting or whatever it might be. Right. You know, we have to look at those audiences completely different and I think we're getting better at it.
But historically, like we've leaned on that as an industry.
Historically we've leaned on that messaging of like you said, it's made of this metal, it has this many rounds, it shoots this way, you know, like the bullet goes this fast. Like that's all fine and dandy.
I think they will get there if they choose to go that far, if the consumer wants to dive that deep into the information. But more when they're first being introduced to this space, how you present the same information needs to be presented in dozens of different ways.
John Fahrner:Well, I think if I could give any advice to any company out there because I'm going to address the companies at this part, I think as the first further of away and a lot of people who are at companies have started at a gun counter at one point, some point in their career, maybe the Further away you get from the gun counter, the more disconnected you become with the new audience. And the what the audience that you're listening to is the ones that are in your comment section.
The ones that are your comment section are the gun people.
Ben Stacy:And they're the loudest.
John Fahrner:They're the loudest.
Ben Stacy:Yep.
John Fahrner:If I could encourage anything, and that goes to any company, any.
Spend a week behind the counter at a gun store and see the different demographics that come in and see the different people and listen to what is being talked about. Because the, the gun store, as we say, the brick and mortar is the lifeblood of this industry. Without them, we can't do what we do.
Ben Stacy:Yep.
John Fahrner:As an industry, listen to things because they're complete. The people who are on the Internet and, and sorry, people on the Internet, we love you.
But the people who are the loudest on the Internet are the people who want the new fast, tactical, cool, fast thing.
The people who are the average human gun person or the average person coming into the gun store, they have totally different aspirations and needs compared to those who are on the Internet.
Ben Stacy:And they've potentially only even heard of Ruger and xyz, other big company gun company here. They've only ever heard of the nra. You know, they're, they're still that. Like, that's what I see as the core of gun owners.
And it's the, it's the vast majority. It's the vast majority. Like we're our, our little world that we, that we live in is awesome. I love it.
But it's so small compared to the amount of Americans that are out there that just want to protect themselves. Like, and, and there's a, like there's a scale. Like you're, when you first get into guns, you're probably not going to care about policy or politics.
Right.
As you get more and more involved, you're going to want to get, you're going to want to get more involved on the policy side or you're going to want to just deck out your pistol and the latest and greatest red dot or whatever it might be. So how you, how you approach that has to take so many different twists and turns.
Kaylee:And I think there's a key to this conversation and that is accessibility.
And I think of the GOA events, especially National Women's Range Day when we do events within The Women's Coalition empowered 2A so many of the people that attend the event have never shot a gun before and they're gun curious and they're looking for something where they can Go in a, in a safe environment and ask questions and, and experience the product. You know, Goals is another opportunity. Although it's definitely not a range day, so don't, don't come looking for that. Please don't.
Ben Stacy:You can find your next gun there though, is great.
Kaylee:But you know, know the, the exhibition hall floor where they're able to, to talk and connect with the companies and see the different product offerings. Because the other thing is, you know, not everyone has access to a really great gun store that has a ton of inventory.
Ben Stacy:Yeah. You know, most people don't.
Kaylee:And so, you know, being accessible at events like Goals and obviously like we have, we have a biased take on that. It's our event. Right.
But having those opportunities to connect with consumers at different points in their firearm ownership journey is so important because you don't know, you know, what area of the country they're from, what kind of access they have to inventory at their local counter.
And it may be a missed opportunity to get real, genuine feedback from people that have been shooting since they were five years old or just purchased their first gun last week or just gun curious and being taken to the show by a friend who's like, why don't you come with me?
Like you're curious about this, so be a great opportunity and kudos to that friend for taking them along for the ride because that's how we grow the community.
But access to those sorts of interactions is incredibly valuable to take it from a nameplate brand into seeing real people who are passionate about their product having that face to face interaction.
Ben Stacy:Yeah, a couple things.
I had a conversation with a company I won't mention who, who, who talked about how that was so valuable at Goals this past year about how they had invested money into events and Goals was one of the first ones where they actually doubled down on that and it was, it, it revitalized what they're going to do. It completely shifted what their plan is because they were getting that immediate feedback.
To your point about going behind the gun counter, I think the same says to just listen to your customer service team or answer the phone calls or emails for a couple days and capture that data on what people are actually saying, complaining about, you know, overanalyzing all of those different things are going to give you data points as a, as a manufacturer or, you know, business owner to figure out where that consumer is and meet them there from the, from the event side as a whole, we tell companies all the time, you have to, you have any event you can afford to go to like, be there. It's all about being in front of the company. Like, our entire business is built on relationships. It's called forge relations. It's.
That's how we've gotten to where we are and that's how companies should be looking at everything they're doing. The, on the digital side, being front and center, having a face to your brand, multiple people involved, doing stuff like what you're doing.
Being a media company, even if you're just a firearms manufacturer, building those digital connections is great, but that, that has to funnel back into physical interaction with the consumer in person. Because once again, people buy from people. Like, we're, we're back right where we started. That's.
That is how we move this ball forward as a community.
Kaylee:It is time for our favorite segment from the Soapbox, the time that we take on the spicier takes. So, Ben, the floor is yours. What is the spicy take that you want to take on this afternoon?
Ben Stacy:Oh, boy. I wasn't prepared.
John Fahrner:I know. If Ben gets spicy, I'm going to get spicy because Ben and I are passionate about.
Ben Stacy:Last time, last time I did this, I got a little too spicy. I need, I need like a, I need a. Give me a lateral limit. What type of spicy are we talking about?
John Fahrner:Well, we had like the Indian food last night or Indian food last night. So let's get like a level six.
Kaylee:Six.
Ben Stacy:I was stuck at like a level four, so.
John Fahrner:Okay.
Ben Stacy:Okay, let's see. Spicy take, right? Like, I, I've already hit on Tik Tok a couple times. This actually kind of goes back to.
I think one of the questions that you, that we didn't get to answer of how does a gun company actually execute on TikTok? How does anyone in our industry execute on Tik Tok when these platforms are trying to deplatform us? A couple of things. One, get over yourself.
That's my spice. To take like go where the people are. You know, the. All the alternate platforms are great, but if you're going to grow, go where the people are.
Two or three, you have to work within the limitations they give you. Like, it is what it is you're playing on their platform.
That's why we, that's why I encourage, like own your own email lists and your SMS list and take advantage of that. But if you're going to be on these platforms, play by the rules and you're going to be able to crush it.
That is going to shift what your normal content output looks like. You might be used to being like, here's the new gun that we're putting out. It's not about that now.
It's going to be about company culture or filming a skit about how you plan on launching your new product and your team is spitballing all these stupid ideas and then you act them out. There's a million different ways to get creative on content.
Get out of your head as a, as a, as a company in our industry and stop complaining about the fact that you can't market because you can't run ads.
John Fahrner:I'm gonna be spicy. Here we go. All right, so I'm with you. 100.
As somebody who built up a company's TikTok page to 120,000 in like weeks and then it get deplatformed and then rebuilding it again to another 60,000 and then getting deplatformed and then rebuilding it a third time.
Those were audience and people that we did not have before who I was able to get converted over to at least look at the website, at least figure out what the brand is go to figure it out. That is a whole customer base. If you get deplatformed, it is discouraging you immediately. It's a gut punch and you're like, oh, here we go again.
But at the same time, I am now reached 120 or I think the biggest clip. I think we did hit a million views on one of the clips that went viral. It produced sales from, from our perspective. We produced sales from that.
And now I have their email information and everything like that. And by building up, I mean it is discouraging. You get hurt.
But try the, the thing with our industry is we like to stay within our little pretty box because it's a pretty box. We, we wrapped it nice. We put a little bow on top. It's a pretty box. This is the box we need to be in. Get outside the box. Sometimes it's ugly.
Outside the box you get deplatformed. But if you get outside the box and try things and go and do things, things might not work.
But if you try them and you go, okay, well, I'm going to give this a month of doing this short form content or I can do this any this or that or this. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Ben Stacy:Marketing is all about experimenting. Sorry to cut you off, but that's, that's what it is. It boils down to experimenting and, and being comfortable with failure.
Whether that's the platform taking you down or the post doing terrible. The metrics of how this Posted to this one.
All that's irrelevant nowadays, you know, you want to focus on building a community and that will grow with time. You know, the days of every single video hitting hundreds of thousand views is not a thing. One might do 10,000, the next one might do a million.
And you have to be comfortable with that.
It's very hard when you have to bring that to leadership that doesn't quite understand marketing on like, hey, this is working even if the numbers don't technically show it. Like it's a very, trust me, it's very hard to continue to stay motivated day in and day out.
But it's consistent at the end of the day, it's staying consistent with it and continuing to do something. Don't just give up on a platform because you didn't see results right away.
John Fahrner:Well, I think the biggest thing that I could. Any advice I could give anybody before Kaylee reaches over and smacks me. Any advice I could give anybody is, is have real expectations.
Real expectations in my, in my mind and you can tell me if I'm right. Real expectations should be a 10% conversion. If you've got 50,000 people, 500 should be viewing your content. It's a real expectation.
Should be about a 10% conversion of the content. You can.
Ben Stacy:Yeah, I mean, yes, that's, that's a safe like starting point I would say. It's like it's less of a, it's more of a guide now or more of a, a baseline now than, than, than law. It used to be. Yeah, it used to be law for sure.
John Fahrner:Well, it's hard because you're like the issue in the mind of a lot of people and if you're doing YouTube or anything like that, because we always encourage people to get out there and talk in voice and, and be, be your voice. It can be discouraging because you're like, I have 50,000 subscribers, I got 500 views on this.
Yeah, you, you have to have expectations that not everything is going to go viral. Not everything is going to be a.
Ben Stacy:And that's okay.
John Fahrner:It's okay.
Ben Stacy:Yeah. Because your court. And listen, now we're, now we're talking about like on the creator side.
If you want to build a community, you can be very successful with a, with small, smaller platforms. You don't need to be the million million channel subscriber channel to be successful and to turn this into a, a full time, full time job.
Last thing I'd like to leave it with.
This, this is not, this shouldn't be spicy, but I Think maybe it can be for some companies is the more you try to sell your product, the lesser your product you will sell.
John Fahrner:Gone are the days where you can send out something and be like, buy it now. Well, everything's, buy it now. Everything's on sale.
Y the, the days of your consumers are more educated and the consumers who are out there can comment away. Please comment away. But the days of marking up your product to say 300, but it's on sale for 2.99. Well that's a bad example.
But oh, I say the penny, but
Ben Stacy:you know what I'm saying, they don't even make pennies anymore.
John Fahrner:But the government day is going like, oh, I, I, hey, $429 on sale for 259. Okay.
Ben Stacy:It's, that's the nor the consumer's smart. And now that we, there's technology, I know we're running out of time. There's technology that tracks all that, right?
Like, everyone loves to hate honey now because they, they did everyone dirty. But there's so many different apps where you can see what something used to cost on Amazon, what it costs now.
And like at the time of filming, we're right before Black Friday. That's exactly what's happening.
Everyone's increasing their pricing so that when that 50% Friday, you know, Black Friday comes, they can drop it to 50% off and it's the same price it was the rest of the year. People, people catch onto that now. So build a brand, connect with people.
You know, be genuine, stand in, draw a line in the stand sand, stand for something. All of those are how you're gonna, how you're gonna reach the audience these days.
Kaylee:No, I, I think that you are exactly right. And I think that as a, as a general rule, it is always important to connect genuinely with the, the new gun owners with your existing audience.
Speaking of connecting, where can people find you? Go ahead, plug your social media, all that fun stuff.
Ben Stacy: in. We've been doing it since:You can find us [email protected] and all of the socials. Same thing.
Kaylee:Thank you all for joining us for this week's episode of the State of the Second podcast.
Be sure to like, share, subscribe, leave a five star review on all podcasting platforms and join us for the Gun Owners Advocacy and Leadership Summit Gold goals August 1st and 2nd in Des Moines, Iowa to celebrate 50 years of no compromise. Gun owners.org goals to get your tickets and we will see you next week.
