In part two of my chat with Ran, we talk further on the side effects of punishment-based training, cat and dog body language, cat testing and getting professional help.

Key Moments

[00:37] More talk on punishment-based training side effects

[03:14] Coping mechanisms don't mean your cat and dog are "getting along"

[06:52] Cat testing

[08:42] Cat and dog body language

[10:10] Cat testing - part two

[13:33] Behavioral triggers and training

[16:35] Cat and dog body language - part two

[20:00] Getting professional help and finding community

[24:26] Naomi's one-on-one training and membership club

Key Links

Part One

Dog Behavior Institute

Humane Hierarchy

Ran's Instagram

The PETS Process Guide

Hey you cat and dog people.

This is it's training cats and dogs.

Your source of practical strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species

household, safe and sane.

I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg.

And today we're bringing you part two of my chat with Ran Courant Morgan about how

they've used their expertise to manage the relationship between their own pets.

If you're just joining us for the first time, you can find the first part of

the interview in last week's episode.

Link is in the show notes.

Let's get back into it.

Let's talk a little bit about some of the other side effects that you saw.

You mentioned that you were worried about redirection onto your other dog and that

you really managed the environment really well, to try to do that, to prevent that.

Sorry.

So do you feel like that if you didn't have the procedure.

One strike, put the collar on two strikes.

Collar turns on.

I think that was what you said.

I'm assuming within that you put the one strike, you put the collar on

and then you separated the dogs...

You know, once we'd been doing it for a while, I'm not sure that we did

as much management of the two dogs.

Initially, like for the first week or so, we made sure to remove the

other dog from the room, but I don't, I honestly don't remember if

we did that much more management.

Also, as I mentioned, she was a resource guarder and so there were, it was a

very complicated dance of just living with these two dogs, particularly.

And so I don't know how much, I don't remember how much of that was like

the panic procedure that we were using or just like looking at what

toys are on the floor that day or so.

I don't have a good answer to that, but I know that was on our

radar of like, are we doing this?

Where's Daphne?

What's she doing?

And is it going to be compounded by something else?

That's in the environment?

Yeah.

I cannot believe how stressed we were during that time.

Like, and not necessarily aware of it, but living now with a dog

who has her own issues and, you know, unique character traits

And don't we all have our own acharacter traits?

Right?

I'm just so amazed at how, you know, right now we make, when we're prepping

a meal, like the cats come in, the dog comes in, they sniff each other.

They're like interacting with each other.

And I can't believe how many years I took that kind of thing for granted or assumed

that that is just how it always is.

And now I'm so grateful for these little interactions where the cat walks by the

dog or where the cat walks under the dog.

And, you know, it's that like sweet little walkthrough with the tail up

touching the dog as they go under.

I appreciate that.

You know, I just, I used to think before Lenny, that that's just how it was.

And I admit that I was skeptical when people were like dogs

and cats might not get along.

And I just have so much more respect for that now and appreciation for the

relationships that our pets you have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that there's it, it's not all or nothing.

Right.

So even if the animals, quote, unquote, get along, there's going

to still be TIFs because anyone.

I love my family very much, but, you know, occasionally

we get on each other's nerves.

So just like siblings, right.

Even if your dog and cat get along really well, there's still going

to be some cranking at each other.

And then there's the other end of the spectrum where you're like

genuinely concerned for animal's safety like you had with Lenny

and there's gray areas in between.

I mean, a lot of animals end up being quote unquote, okay.

With each other because they just avoid each.

Right?

They're not comfortable around each other, but they've figured out coping mechanisms

that work because aggression is more effortful than just avoiding, for example.

So we, as humans might say, look, it's fine, everyone's getting along.

Right.

And it might not be really that way from the animal's perspective, but everyone's

figured out a way to just work it out.

Right.

To live together without over the stressful interactions.

Yes.

And I will say I, I'm not sure how many of your followers or listeners follow me

on Instagram, probably a small number, but, um, my business partner, Stephanie

has the best puppy in the world.

His name is Curtis and he is exactly two years to the day younger than beacon.

Um, so he's two years old now and we trade pet care.

He's their only pet.

I'm about to have a, uh, cat training me.

How dare.

I know.

And so he's been coming over a lot and he's really interested in the

cats and he will occasionally chase the cats and twig keeps coming back.

Twig is like, okay, what are we doing now?

Like, he'll jump up or he'll run away.

And then he'll come back and sort of supervise.

And Noah has just been disappearing when Kirby's here.

So if Kirby's here for a day, Noah is gone for that day.

If Noah's here for a weekend, we sort of have to search for Noah

and make sure we know where he is.

But that also makes me think of like, I don't know that I would say

Kirby's good with cats, you know?

And I am seeing that Noah's like, this is not for me.

And Kirby and Twig are sort of figuring out what their interactions are.

Sometimes they'll just sit right next to each other on the couch, but, um,

Yeah, Kirby will chase around the house and I'm not into, I think sometimes Twig

is into it and he's like, yes, chase.

And sometimes Twig is like, this is a lot I'm I have to run and hide.

It's never all or nothing.

It's, you know, even the best of friends fight.

And the enemies can sit in the same room, you know, not

kill each other occasionally.

So I'm going to actually look at my list of questions for the first

time this entire, this entire interview, but this has been so great.

So we talked a little bit at the beginning about cat testing, and it

seems as though the cat testing you did with Beacon was indicative of how she

did react with your cats and the cat testing as it were, was with Lenny was

also indicative of how she was with cats.

Um, there's a lot of controversy about temperament testing and

shelters and all of this stuff.

We're not going to go into that necessarily, but I guess my question

is more along the lines of like, what do we think about in terms of the

predictability that the temperament tests.

I mean, the cat testing actually gives you how much of it is the way

the tech, the cat testing is done.

How much is it not really caring that we're putting cats in a situation

where it could be dangerous?

A lot of welfare concerns around that as well.

And theoretically, if you're doing a relatively safe cat test, there

would be some kind of barrier between the dog and the cat and barriers

change behavior for a lot of animals.

So let's riff on that for a little bit, cause I just

threw a million things at you.

Yeah.

And I'm honestly not sure that I have an answer.

I can talk through some thoughts.

I'm just...

so our old dog Daphne was.

Great with our cats in the house.

Like they would sometimes rub up against her.

She was, she was great.

And she was very, I don't know if reactive is the right word, but it's the one

I'm going to use reactive towards cats that we saw out in the neighborhood.

So if we were out on a walk and she saw a cat, like half a block away,

10 feet away, two blocks away, she.

Got intense.

And that was really interesting to me because she had always just been

so neutral and that indoor outdoor cha I don't know if it was an indoor

outdoor change or if it was the cat.

I know cat, I don't know change.

She was fine.

When we visited other people who had cats, she was fine with their cats.

Like neutral, ignored them.

Outside.

She wanted to get those cats.

So that's just one thing that comes to mind thinking about the

different environments and what are the different stimulates

that might impact that response?

Um, I will also say Beacon and I ran into the first cat

we've seen outside yesterday.

A couple of days ago.

Where do you live this magical?

No stray cats?

I know.

In the suburbs of Boston, I, everyone, I don't know.

Um, or that you just hide from us because, you know, we have dog.

But we were walking outside this cat and it sort of, it looked like Twig

and it sort of perked up and looked at me and I called it cause I was like,

it's not going to come over here.

Right.

And I also wanted to make sure it said that I had the dog and it perked

up and it did that little like book.

And it's shrouded right up to us and flopped over on the ground and beacon.

Beacon had really interesting body language.

I wish I had got it on camera because she was perked up, but she wasn't

too forward, but her tail was a little higher than all friendly.

And she was like sort of forward and interested.

And then it rolled over on the ground and she played bowed at it and did this

like bark and then sort of a runaway.

And that's when the guy was like I'm out and ran and hit.

And beacon was like, okay, friend has gone.

Let's keep walking.

But that was really interesting to me because Daphne had always been so

intense seeing cats outside and beacon maybe wanted to play, like I've been

hearing about the pray bow lately.

And so part of me was like, is this a playback or pray bow?

I don't know if this is a term I only very recently heard.

So I still need to look into that.

I had no concern that she was going to hurt this cat.

And she wasn't treating it like a bunny, which, you know, they must

be stocked in chase at all costs.

So I don't know with the cat testing, like I, I would be

interested in seeing multiple.

Like thinking behavior, analytically.

I want to see at least three cats.

I want to measure some, some aspect of behavior.

If you suddenly asked me to do cat testing and I've done a little bit

of cat testing at a shelter that I worked at a number of years ago.

There were two cats who lived there and were just like totally unflappable.

They lived in the clinic, they just walked around loose.

They had shelves and beds.

And so when people needed a cat test, the staff would just take

one of the dogs into the clinic.

And call a cat and like, see what the dog did, and then say either

like, this is a little intense.

This might be okay.

This is definitely okay.

Like that was sort of as systematic as it got.

I have no idea how reliable those results were, but if you asked me

to do cat testing right now, I would want to have at least three cats.

I would want to measure like latency to responding to the cats.

I would want to have some, like, what are our strengths?

Measures for the dogs so that we can collect some data on.

Frequency or rate of that.

And then I also really want to think more about like what the cat is experiencing.

So those cats that were in the clinic, like they were totally cool.

They were so used to living in this shelter clinic where

other animals were coming in.

They did not care if a dog came in and stared intensely at them.

But I think in a lot of cases I've seen in shelters where they're

like, we need to do a cat test.

They just grabbed the nearest cat and put it in a crate and are like, let's

bring a dog in and see what happens.

And that sounds terrible to me.

That's whose first inclination is usually usually to run away when they're

stressed by something, preventing them from being able to do this.

In a small crate scenario, there's like a dog sniffing at them or something.

I mean, that is like extremely stressful.

I would expect that it would be extremely stressful for an animal who really

just wants that negative reinforcement.

Yeah.

You know, I'm also curious, as I'm saying this, I'm thinking like, when you

do have a cat, the ones I've seen the cats, like huddled and holding really.

So, and being like, I can't run away.

I'm just going to hold really still.

Yeah.

After Lenny died, we fostered a few different dogs thinking about

whether to get a second dog.

And we had a few that were like, good, okay.

With cats.

But then in the.

When the cat ran by or when the cats were playing, they perked up

to a degree that I was like, I'm not sure this is good with cats.

Like I think that, and again, I haven't really officially done cat testing.

And this is honestly the first time I'm thinking about this question,

but if I suddenly had to do cat testing, not only would, I want to

see at least three trials, maybe it's the same cat, each trial.

I'm not super picky about that, but three trials or sessions.

I would also want to see the cat sitter.

Moving and like, I don't know what the third thing is.

I want to see the cat doing some different cat things, maybe just walking around,

but maybe also playing because maybe you have a dog that's like, I'm totally cool

with this cat lying down over there.

But as soon as it runs across the floor, I'm going to lose it.

That's going to be the thing that triggers the thing and I have to get it.

Yeah.

That's actually really important.

That's how I start conceptualizing for my clients.

This concept of, can you relax when the cat is blank?

So there's some mini milestones that we go through with first non-Cat

objects, toys, things like that, but really movement is a huge part of it.

It's like, can you relax on your bed when this neutral object is just sitting?

Can you relax in your bed when that neutral object is slowly quote,

unquote, walking across the floor, that usually it's like some kind

of water bottle or something.

Totally non-animal.

Um, and then we go to toys where it's like, can you basically hang

out when a flirt pole is going by, that's as close as we can get to

an actual cat, um, in most houses.

So then it's, you know, if they can do that, that gives us at least

some semblance of predictability when there is a cat around, who's

moving in a less intense way.

Um, there's no way we're ever going to like, get to proofing with cats until we

get to proofread with cats, but you can try as much as possible to simulate that.

And I do think that movement is a huge one, especially because the

behavior that we're most worried about is this predatory chain, which

has chase really is like the big one.

You either can interrupt the chase or you can't.

And then the chase is going to end somehow it's either going to end with

the dog getting the cat or the cat has figured out a way to get away.

And so making sure that the trigger of movement is, is really worked on

and hammered home, mostly for dogs.

Same things with cats because dogs can be, you know, cats can be

triggered by dogs moving as well.

Um, and actually usually what ends up happening if you have an intense dog

and an intense cat, which I sometimes might call obnoxious, is that they

might be interested in each other at first, but then once the either

play or movement raises in intensity, they feel stuck in that interaction.

They can't remove them.

Because there's just this behavioral inertia that's going on.

And so giving them practice, moving away from really intense movements

on both sides of the relationship is like the only way that you could

potentially prepare them for that.

So a lot of people are you say like, oh, well, my dog is like real,

always wants to play with the cats.

And my cat is super social, so there's not going to be a problem.

Well, actually there might be when it gets too intense.

They have, they don't know how to.

They don't speak the same language all the time.

So really...

I'm just picturing all the, all the times I've seen, like the dogs wagging

her tail and the cats wagging his tail.

And I'm like, you are saying such different things to each other, right.

Can you explain what you mean by that to the listeners?

Is this, the wag just doesn't mean the same thing.

So, you know, I'm, I'm picturing and there are so many ways.

I also feel like I need to say that dogs wag their tails

for so many reasons as well.

So a wagging tail is not always a happy dog.

Um, but I'm picturing a situation where.

And like Beacon was standing there, happily wagging her tail.

Like we're playing, like she's relaxed, wagging.

She wants to like pounce up the cat and have him chase her and the cat.

Um, this was Noah.

Who's just like, I mean his poor life being the training cat.

I think he's not interested in playing with Beacon at all.

He's like sitting there wagging his tail.

Sort of stiff and everything in his body language is leave me alone.

I don't want you near me.

And, and who knows what's going through their head.

Like, I don't think they're having complex verbal interactions in their

heads, but if they were the poor cat is sitting there being like, you hate

this, cause your tail is wagging.

I hate this.

Cause my tail is wagging.

What are we doing here?

The dog in her head is like, you love this.

Cause your tail is wagging.

I love this.

And they're just having completely different conversations and who knows?

Like I would, I would love to see some research on like, can dogs and

cats actually comprehend that similar body movements mean different things.

So if anyone out there is like, I want to do this research study or

has already done it and wants to send it to me, I would love that.

Dog perception and response to varied feline body language.

This is the name of the study.

Someone do it, please.

My brain is just going a mile a minute about the.

Okay.

I know experimental design will get off the podcast.

That's about it for all those people who are subscribed to the private

podcast maybe we'll talk about this.

It's mental designed for this magical thing on there.

Um, yay.

Nerding out.

So yeah, I think you're, you hit the nail on the head, right?

There's just so many things that could go wrong in communication.

There's so many things that you kind of need to like prepare your animals for.

And it's actually a miracle that most of the time it goes okay.

Yeah,

I mean, does it go okay most of the time?

I think this is my realization is like you only, you see the videos

of the dog and the cat snuggling.

Like anytime, you know, beacon goes in, lies on the couch and then twig chooses

to get up in line next to her or more likely he's curled up in her bed and then

she's like, I'll just lie down around you.

Like they're not snuggling, but those are of course the pictures where I'm

like, I have to take this picture.

I have to put it on the internet they're in love.

And so, and I also, I do think they're in their own special kind of love, but

they are not intentionally snuggling with each other, but no one's posting

pictures on the internet being like today's the day that my dog tried to kill

my cat and was almost successful or my cat hasn't come out from under my bed

since I got my dog six months ago or.

Like no one is sharing about all of those hard pieces, which

also makes it harder to share.

So...

That's exactly why I'm doing it.

I love that.

Thank you.

No problem.

I think it's, that's a huge thing.

Like we all feel really, really alone.

Okay.

Instagram.

I love Instagram, but there's too much cute shit on Instagram.

Okay.

It's not all, it's not all happy and rainbows.

It's not, it's not all that is starts bad and then ends up happy rainbows too.

I think that that's like, we all love a good story, but yeah,

there's a lot of probably dog cat relationships that we as humans,

whether knowledgeable about behavior or not, might say those that's fine.

They're okay.

But the more you start learning about body language, the more you start

thinking about really, what are the patterns of behavior around each other?

Is that how that animal would, would behave in a different scenario?

Is it really.

Fine fine.

Is the worst word ever.

I was just thinking like, I have only very recently like looked at your

website and seen some of what you do.

And maybe you'll even ask me about this at the end, but I just want to say coming out

of all of the scenarios that I've been in with dogs and cats, my biggest advice for

anyone is don't just let them work it out.

Because it could be fine, but it also really, really could not be fine.

And there's so many people out there like you who can help,

can help them work it out.

Right.

And, and not just work it out, but like be more comfortable.

Understanding how to live in a new setting with this new creature that I live with.

Right.

At least from the beginning, trying to set it up so that things go at the right pace.

And even if things seem okay, there's always room for improvement

and doing some small little.

I have a client right now who like, literally just like adding a little

ladder for their cat, like to allow him to be up in the living room and watch

the three dogs as they're on the ground.

And he can look out the window and have this other source of reinforcement and

enrichment where he is safe from the dogs.

Just adding that they can be in the same way.

Whereas before that there was like barking and craziness and

he was just like petrified.

It's amazing.

So really just thinking about there's so many different options and potential

resolutions, or at least potential improvements that can be made.

And if you have cat dog issues or not even issues, maybe like, you know,

some small things that you think you have questions about, right.

That's where this community of, I want us to like all realize that we exist.

Um, and until at least like, discussion about like the good things that happened.

The not good things that happened and like just normal daily

life with both cats and dogs.

Cause it's not talked about very much at all.

And like professionals need professionals.

I want to say that.

Like I have consulted with dog trainers and I also, um, so a few

years ago we had three cats and our old lady cat was just having a very

hard time with the young boy cats.

And it was making for a very stressful, not nearly as stressful as with Lenny,

but a stressful living situation.

And in that case, we had a cat behavioralist come to our

home and talk through some of the tweaks that we could make.

And it was so humbling as a dog behavior person.

I know a lot about behavior and I know a lot about behavior across

many, many, a few different species.

Let me be realistic.

Um, cats are not my area of expertise and it was so helpful to get tips

like that, like put a shelf here.

And so your cat can jump up and be away from the other two

cats or put a ramp over here.

And I think for a long time, I was like, you don't need help with cat behavior.

Like I'm a behavior analyst and a dog trainer.

I don't need help.

But some of the things I didn't know, I didn't know really made any normal.

Difference.

And hi, I'm just thinking about how much I wish you had existed

on my radar 10 years ago.

Like where else could we have been early on?

I just want to encourage anyone who's listening to, like, I don't, I don't

know how your structure works, but I think even just an hour conversation

to say, like, here's where I live.

Here's what this looks like and get some tips and strategies can go so

far in comfort and can be such little tweaks that makes such a big difference.

Yeah.

I, that's a good segue for the different options that I do offer, but

there's, I have a club, an online club for dog and cat owners who want to connect

and talk about the things that are going well, things that aren't going well

and just kind of to see what's possible

from other people.

And then I have a private training program that kind of feeds into that.

So you would go through a process of evaluating your space and teaching

the important skills to both the dogs and the cats and making

sure that everyone is enriched appropriately and then going through.

You know, an integration process that works well for you.

So that's the private part of it, right?

I'm not going to just throw you into a group if you have no idea what

the best thing for your animals is.

And I think that that setup has been so valuable for a lot of people where

they can get confident in understanding their own animals, their own space,

and then can go in and say, okay, I understand these concepts and I'm

going to take them and run with them.

Within the group where everyone is also talking about these same situations.

Yeah.

And it all starts with a short strategy session, by the way, if anyone wants.

So that's that little conversation that you were talking about?

Is there, is there a potentially easy fix for all of these?

And just kind of helping you conceptualize the way things might go to get your

house doing a little less stressful.

I think that's the big takeaway for me is from your story is just like

how important it is to live in a home for everyone to live in a home where

they're not chronically stressed.

Right.

And everyone has the right to that.

I think it took me so long to be like, oh right.

Also my wife is suffering, you know?

It was so much about like, how do we manage.

The pets and, and who we were prioritizing and realizing that,

like, it was also fair to consider.

I want to say it's fair to consider ourselves, but I think I was overlooking

that I needed to be considering everyone.

And she was being so kind and putting up with how long it took me to get there.

Yeah.

I mean, the emotional factor of all, this is really important to consider.

It's usually a project in some way.

Intensity or time or both.

And so really coming up with a plan of like how to manage your

own stress level through this is, is super important as well.

And I'm glad that you were able to take a step back and realize,

you know, the importance of factoring that in to your plan.

Oh, I love talking to you so much.

Thank you.

This is so fun.

No problem.

I really appreciate you coming on.

We're going to have to do.

It's some other way.

I think there's people are going to have a lot of questions.

Um, so.

If anyone wants to get in contact with you, what is the best way to reach you?

Oh, great question.

Probably actually through Instagram, um, rantalksdogs is my Instagram handle

and that is sort of my personal one.

So I'm also, I run our dog behavior Institute Instagram as well.

And I don't know, I try to be more professional there

sometimes versus ran talksdogs.

I'm like, and here's everything that's happening and also here's

my dog and what I'm thinking today.

And that's how we connected too.

So I, I love chatting with people there.

Um, I love breaking down behavioral concepts, as you said, like nerdy behavior

stuff, talking about super nerdy behavior stuff, and then also making it a little, I

don't want to say less nerdy, but a little more understandable for someone who's not.

Reading their textbook for fun.

Wow.

I sound so cool.

You are cool.

You're the coolest.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

So I think that'll wrap us up for now.

I think that you are fantastic by the way.

Um, and I look forward to everyone being able to hear this conversation

and to continue all the different branches that you could, the

rabbit holes that we could go down.

Oh my gosh.

And I would love to talk experimental design or just like, I dunno, nerd out.

Okay.

I'm going to stop the podcast here.

Great.

And then for, you know, if you want to hear experimental design nerding

out, you can, uh, join the private podcast, which I will, uh, give some

information in the show notes as well.

So hopefully I'll see some of you all there.

Thank you so much for your time.

You're awesome.

Thank you.

Yes.

Thank you so much.

Have a wonderful evening.

Thanks so much for listening.

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and dogs,

please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

You can also follow me on Instagram at praiseworthypets.

I'd love to hear your suggestions, who should I interview next?

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start, go

download my free PETS process guide - a step-by-step explanation of the process

that I use with my own clients when helping them through their coexistence

journey, you can get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people.

See you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.