What happens when your spiritual business grows organically, but your offers, audiences, and marketing strategies start pulling you in too many directions?

In this Sacred Business Calibration episode of Spirit Sherpa, Kelle Sparta works with a Chinese astrology practitioner from Green Dragon Healer who has built a business offering readings, coaching, and spiritual education—but is struggling to determine which direction to prioritize.

The conversation reveals a challenge many experienced spiritual practitioners face: having valuable expertise and a genuine ability to help people, yet struggling with imposter syndrome, perfectionism, selling, and creating a sustainable business structure.

Kelle explains why trying to build multiple businesses simultaneously can sabotage your growth, how to recognize the audience already responding to your work, and why spiritual practitioners need a clearly defined pathway from initial interest to deeper transformational engagement.

They explore how Chinese astrology readings can become the foundation of a structured client journey, moving from education and introductory experiences into coaching and eventually practitioner certification.

But business strategy is only part of the conversation.

Kelle also addresses the internal patterns that undermine practitioner success, including external validation, fear of being wrong, overgiving, undercharging, and the pressure to know everything before claiming your expertise.

The episode moves into the ethics of spiritual facilitation, including why practitioners must obtain permission before sharing unsolicited intuitive information, how to establish boundaries, and why protecting the safety of a group is more important than accepting every potential client.

For spiritual coaches, psychics, healers, intuitive practitioners, and transformational educators who want to build a more focused, sustainable practice, this episode offers practical guidance for combining professional confidence, ethical facilitation, and strategic business development.

What You'll Learn

• Why offering too many services to too many audiences can undermine business growth
• How to identify your ideal client through existing demand
• Why spiritual practitioners need a clearly defined client journey
• How to move clients from introductory education into readings, coaching, and certification
• Why a confused potential client often chooses not to buy
• How to overcome imposter syndrome without needing to know everything
• Why perfectionism can prevent experienced practitioners from sharing their expertise
• How external validation contributes to overgiving, undercharging, and burnout
• Why free readings may not be the best client acquisition strategy
• How long-form content helps spiritual practitioners establish credibility and trust
• Why transformational sales can be approached as an invitation rather than persuasion
• How to establish ethical boundaries around intuitive information
• Why permission matters when sharing challenging spiritual insights
• How to screen participants and protect the integrity of group programs
• Why clear processes and professional standards strengthen client confidence

References Mentioned

• Sacred Business Calibration
• Spiritual Business Strategy
• Chinese Astrology
• BaZi Astrology
• Spiritual Practitioner Coaching
• Practitioner Certification
• Imposter Syndrome
• Perfectionism
• Client Journey Mapping
• Lead Magnets
• Podcast Marketing
• Know, Like, and Trust
• Sales Funnels
• Energetic Boundaries
• Transformational Initiation
• Intuitive Readings
• Practitioner Ethics
• Group Facilitation
• Client Screening
• Professional Spiritual Practitioner Program

Resources Mentioned

Green Dragon Healer

https://greendragonhealer.com

Chinese astrology readings, spiritual education, and practitioner coaching discussed in this episode.

Kelle Sparta

https://kellesparta.com

Explore Kelle Sparta's spiritual business coaching, practitioner development, and transformational training.

Spirit Guides School

https://learn.kellesparta.com

Professional development for spiritual practitioners, coaches, healers, facilitators, and transformational leaders.

 Welcome back to Spirit Sherpa, where spiritual practitioners learn to master their gifts, grow their businesses, and change lives. I'm your host, Kelly Sparta, and I am a transformational shaman and spiritual business coach. And today we're gonna be doing a, a sacred business calibration session, which is a spiritual business coaching process.

Today, Maria Coloveras, and she is gonna come in and have a sacred business calibration done. So welcome to the show, Maria. Thank you for having me. Very excited. Yes. Why don't you tell us in, in, just a little bit about your business. Tell us- Yeah, sure ... a bit. Yeah, so I'm, uh, Maria from Green Dragon Healer. I am a classically trained Chinese medicine s- practitioner.

Um, I've trained also in TCM, as we call it, passed my board exams, and then decided- No, no, no, you can't, you can't lay l- overview. What is TCM? Oh, TCM, yes, of course. Traditional Chinese medicine. Okay. Thank you. That's... Okay. Traditional Chinese medicine, but I'm more classically trained, so I practice more classical medicine.

I learned Chinese metaphysics out of interest. Um, originally it was because I was in clinic and kind of, I guess, hitting walls with certain patterns and not really fully understanding why someone was kind of hitting a plateau. Mm-hmm. So it was like, how do we get them past that level? How do we get them to heal fully?

And looking to metaphysics was really helpful because that shows us the blueprint that someone comes in with. So looking at a BaZi chart, for example, and reading a chart, um, you start to understand the energetics of why something is working for someone or not working for someone- Okay ... and how to kind of navigate.

Yeah. Define BaZi. Yeah. BaZi is, uh, Chinese astrology. Okay. Um, it's this Chinese astrological system similar to Western astrology, it just uses a different system. Um, it's very, very complex, so that's what I focus most of my time on now, is reading BaZi charts for people to help calibrate their lives, um, so they can kind of go deep into the understanding of kind of the cards that they've been dealt with to come into this life.

Um- Okay ... and then from that point, it gives you a bit of a bird's-eye view and you can then make decisions, more informed decisions, let's just put it that way. Yeah. Whether it be in business, in relationships, in health, in all areas of life. Great. And yeah. And then, um, where would people find you? Uh, Maria, sorry, it's, sorry, greendragonhealer.com Greendragonhealer.com.

Okay, great Yeah. Pretty simple And so, uh, you said y- TCM, traditional Chinese medicine- Yep ... and you said but you do more classical. Classical. Much different So what is the difference between traditional and classical, right? 'Cause to me- Okay ... it does sound like the same thing Not that the system is not effective, it's very effective- Sure

but it kind of misses a little bit of the spiritual component that classical medicine brings into the picture. Um, so some of these more shamanic practices and understanding energetics and qigong, um, energy medicine, these things are not as focused on in, uh, traditional Chinese medicine. It's very much a symptom presentation, and then, you know, you treat based on the symptoms, which is very Western, right?

So yeah, so that's basically what w- what it was, what happened. It was a standardized system. Um- Okay ... so yeah. We go further back, and I've been trained in kind of some of the older medicines that exist. Okay, great. So you're running a session-based practice at this point? Yeah. Right now it's actually, um, primarily focused on, uh, reading metaphysical charts, so the BaZi charts.

Mm-hmm. Um, it was, it kind of evolved from me being in clinical practice and then me moving into kind of one-on-one, uh, with people dealing with herbal, herbs and things like this. Um, and then it moved really into BaZi. Just it seemed like that was the natural progression for me. People really enjoyed the chart readings.

Um, I needed to spend some time getting confident in, in my ability to read. It took me, you know, years to learn it. I think that's probably one of my challenges, is sometimes I feel like I'm not ready when I am probably ready. But yeah, so you know, I, um, spent many years learning this practice and then was encouraged a couple years ago by a very close friend who's also in kind of, uh, more shamanic practices to share this with people.

Um, and so I kind of jumped into that and started to offer professional readings, so I was doing that. And n- so I now I offer, uh, birth chart readings, um, as well as relationship readings between people. Um, and I will be also offering a practitioner course in some of the energetic practices that I learned in my time in clinic and how to navigate energy interactions with your own, with your own patients or clients and things like this.

Okay. Yeah. So I just wanna say that you've just described two very different businesses So a session-based business and a course-based business are very different businesses, and they market very differently. Okay? Okay. So when you're doing... So a, a session-based business can support a course-based business.

In fact, we do that in my business, right? So we, we train practitioners for professional spiritual practitioner certification program. Yeah. That's a big course, right? But we also offer psychic gifts assessments, and seer readings, and things like that allow us to talk to people who are interested in these sorts of things, and talk to them about their gifts and things like that.

Right. And, you know, very often when we've finished a session with somebody, that will end up resulting in a conversation about the course, right? It doesn't have to, but for a lot of people, they're like, "I wanna know how to fix it. I wanna know how to get better. I wanna know how," and it, it becomes a, "Oh, we can help you with that," right?

Right. So, you know, that can happen. It's not designed for that obviously, but it is a pathway that, that people can come into your courses. Yeah. Now, it is not the only pathway to get people in. You will not fill courses by doing a bunch of individual sessions and then selling people into courses. That's- Yeah

that's gonna... This is a every so often it works out- It is not a marketing plan for selling courses. So you need to have a separate marketing plan. How are you getting clients for your BaZi right now? Right now, actually primarily I had had a lot of success with, um, a couple podcasts that I was on. Um, and they drove quite a bit of traffic with specifically the one-on-one sessions, so the BaZi readings.

Yeah. Um, and then I was able to create a small list of kind of recurring, uh, like people that came back. Um, so I had ... I do, I offer yearly readings. Mm-hmm. Um, so s- after someone's had a natal chart reading and they have their natal chart information, they can come back for a year update. BaZi's very sensitive to the yearly energy changes that happen, so I do that once a year, and that seems to drive especially traffic in the new year.

Mm-hmm. Um, so that was, that's pretty good, and that's usually from direct messagings or email, um- Right ... traffic. And then also, um, I've had a lot of success with referrals. Um, a lot of referrals coming in from people that have had their readings done with me and enjoyed the reading and really liked what they got out of it, out of the session.

And so they were able, they kind of came back and referred either their friends or their family, or did relationship readings as well. So that's another thing as well, so, um, decided that- Okay ... they wanted their partner involved. So now do you have a system that brings referrals in, or is that, are you just relying on them to do it on their own?

I don't. Actually, I recently just, uh, revamped my website, and there's some changes that have happened there which are going to be introducing a monthly newsletter. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that will be to capture emails, so we can help do that as well. But also thinking of some kind of at the end of the session someone will get an actual recap, a beautiful page that has all their information on it with their birth information and everything like this.

Um, I also do offer talismans, uh, if that's something that they choose, to correct some of the imbalances in the chart. Um, so in that particular moment we're a- I'm asking f- at that point, um, if there's any referrals or if there's any feedback and, uh, you know, anything like this, a comment, a positive comment.

Okay, so you are actually asking for referrals? Yeah. Okay. Uh, are you giving them instructions? Uh, so are you getting testimonials? Testimonials are embedded in this new page, yes. They are. Okay. Which I wasn't doing before. Are you, are you giving them instructions- Yeah ... on how a good testimonial is written?

No, I'm not actually. Okay. If you're asking for testimonials, and everybody out there should be asking for testimonials, okay? If you're asking for testimonials, you need to tell people how to give a good testimonial. Mm. And so the, the best testimonials, and you can steal this language, okay? The best testimonials are from, are given from a personal perspective about your experience, not about what others could get out of it.

And so real world outcomes, real life experience From your own perspective, because other people will see themselves in you, and that's how you tell people how to give a testimonial. Okay. Because otherwise you'll get, "She was great. I liked it," which is a terrible testimonial. Nobody cares about that. You need to give people instructions on how to do a good testimonial 'cause- Okay, great

unless they're actually another practitioner, they don't have a clue. And even if they are another practitioner, they may not, they may still not have a clue because nobody taught them, okay? Okay. So that's number one. Number two, I will... So you didn't say anything about, uh, bringing in new business. I mean, you did talk about going onto podcasts.

Yeah. So the one thing I will say is that you need to be careful about your jargon. I had to stop you multiple times in our con- Right ... in your intro to explain- Yeah ... what you were talking about. You cannot use jargon when talking to the public. They do not know your terminology. True enough, yep. Okay? So you gotta be very careful about using jargon.

So no TCM. You know, if you're gonna say Traditional Chinese medicine and classic, you need to explain it and explain- Exactly ... what the difference is. Yeah. You need to... I would honestly, I would not bother with a big, long explanation. You know, what you wanna do is you wanna make your point very quickly and very succinctly because your podcaster that you're gonna be on the show with is, just like I do, is gonna chop it up into snippets and put it out as reels and, and- Yeah

shorts and all sorts of stuff. And if you can't get your point across in under a minute, then your piece about that will not go out, okay? So you need to make sure you can be very succinct, and you say something like, "I do the classical form of Chinese medicine which is more shamanic in nature." Boom. Done.

Okay. "I do Chinese astrology, which is known as Bazi." Right? Okay. And it's based on five elements instead of the, the astrological sign, and just basic explanation- Right ... and why someone would want Chinese astrology versus regular astrology because a lot of people... I had never heard of astr- Chinese astrology when you reached out to me.

Yeah. Never heard of it. I didn't know what it was. I had to go look it up because I'd never heard that word before in my life, and that's 50 years I've been in the spiritual field. So that- Okay ... means that if I've never heard of it, it's likely a lot of people have never heard of it, which means you need- Got it

to be able to, to... The thing about explaining a new process to people is that you have to hang it on a process that they understand. So when Kathy and I were running our transformational retreats, we spent 10 years trying to come up with that, that piece because- Yeah ... trying to explain it to people was very difficult when they didn't have, "I need to understand regular astrology.

You know, I, I know regular astrology. How does this relate? How is it different?" Right? Mm-hmm. So that's gonna be your, your hang-on point- Okay ... is the, the regular astrology. If you're gonna talk about classical Chinese medicine. A lot of people know traditional Chinese medicine, so you can hang it on that.

Okay. A lot of people know shamanism. You can hang it on that. But you have to, if you're introducing something people have never heard of before, you have to give them entry points of... Think of it, think about it as you're walking them into a new territory and giving them a place to stand while they orient.

Okay. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, and also remember that you cannot sell and educate at the same time. Yeah. Okay? So it is super important to know the difference between what you're doing. Are you selling or are you educating? Because- Mm-hmm So when you are going through a process, and on a podcast you can do a little bit of both, right?

Let me just contextualize this for you, right? What you're doing is you're giving a person a reason to know whether or not they need you, and the pain point is the reason, right? Right. If they have that pain point, then they need you. If they don't have that pain point, then they don't need you, right? Right.

So that means that you need to be able to correlate those. See this pain point? I can fix it by... And not, not I can fix it by here's my long process. We don't do process. Right. Right? It's I can fix it with this, right? With batsa or with, you know, whatever. Yeah. Right? Now, as far as the talisman- Yeah ... um, I would say do not tell anybody you do talisman work unless they're already in a session with you, because that's just gonna confuse the offer.

Okay. And a confused mind says no. Okay. Okay? Got it. So you don't even put it on the, the front page. You don't even put it on... I wouldn't even put it on the website. Okay. I would make it an offer that you make to people after you've done a reading, and you say- Okay ... "Look, I don't offer this to everybody.

It's why it's not on my website. But for you, I think this is, this would be helpful if you would like it. And this is- Okay ... what it is, and this is how it works, and this is how much it is." Perfect. And then that way you, you're not confusing your offer. Your biggest problem is gonna be that the, the gold standard of marketing is you offer one thing.

Yeah. One target market using one platform and one lead magnet for one year, right? Okay. And that's how you get successful. However, you're now talking about doing two things, and that's gonna be the hard thing. Okay. Okay? Because you're gonna- And just in terms of meaning the course- ... confuse people ... the course and the one-on-ones?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. So what you have to... Uh, what I would highly recommend doing is separating those into two different websites and two- Okay ... effectively different businesses. Mm. And when you go anywhere or do any marketing, you do it on separate channels, right? Okay. And you only market one thing. So if you go on a podcast, you have to decide, are you marketing the course or are you marketing your readings?

Because otherwise you're gonna confuse people. Okay. Would the relationship readings be okay to market with the individual readings? Yeah, Chinese astrology- Okay ... all together, totally one thing. Readings- Right ... Chinese astrology readings. Okay. Period. That's one thing, right? It doesn't matter which thing you're doing within that context, it's fine, but that's one thing.

It's one type of service, right? A reading business is a reading-based business, and whatever readings you have is fine. But readings versus courses, very different businesses. Okay. And with, uh, ultimately a lot of different markets, right? Because- Mm ... um, not everybody in your astrology business is going to want to be a practitioner, or is a practitioner, right?

Yeah. And so you don't wanna confuse your target markets. So do you have a clear idea of who your target market is for your astrology sessions? This is a funny thing, right? So I kind of... And this is part of me reflecting, 'cause I, I reflected before this session, so I can kind of understand what I've been doing and what's- where I'm hitting some walls, I guess.

Uh, one is that I tend to prefer to educate, and I'm almost... There's a little bit of a fear of kind of selling, in a sense. Mm-hmm. There is a bit of this. Um, so I will educate really easily and, and give people a ton of information and value. But then when it comes to asking for a sale, I'm, I'm a little bit timid around it.

So that's one thing- Okay ... that I, I identified. But it kind of ha- what happened was I fell into kind of this really hardcore spiritual community that was- that does magical practices and very shamanic and things like this, and that was a community that I kind of started off in based on the education that I was offering and giving and, and people being interested.

So that's kind of what's been selling, I guess you would say. It was never an, it was never an intentional thought of, "This is the target market." I think that it can be expanded into more people, being just regular people that want more guidance. But it's a very different audience, right? So how do I resolve, how do I reconcile that?

Um, I have been kind of on the back side building out a coaching business under kind of another name- Okay ... um, that would be more- targeting more specifically towards, uh, women in a transitional period of their lives. Too many businesses. Right? Yeah, and that's, and that's where I'm kind of stuck right now, right?

Yeah. There's a lot of things going on. Too many. Way too many, okay? Yeah. You... I... Uh, so what happens in business is that if you spread yourself too thin, you will completely destroy all the businesses- Mm ... because there's no energy to run any of them, because they all run on your energy field right now, okay?

So you need to choose, and choose quickly- Okay ... because you're going to really have a problem otherwise, because this is, this is a pa- this is a self-sabotage path that you're on right now, and I see people do it all the time. Yeah. Okay? This is not uncommon. I did not say anything when you said you were starting a coaching business, because it's actually not uncommon for people to transition from session-based business to coaching- Yeah

over time, and I don't have a problem with that if that's the stage you're in. But that usually means you've got a pretty full business in your session-based business, and you're now looking to go to a group dynamic- Right ... which, for astrology and stuff, is kind of hard to do in a group dynamic. So shifting to coaching makes sense if you're full in your session-based business.

Are you full? It has its seasons. It has its seasons Okay So I think that it's, what's happened is it's become very, it's very seasonally driven, especially- Mm-hmm ... with my recurring client base, because the new year brings a ton of new push of, of readings and things like this. My, my calendar fills up really quickly, and then what ends up happening is I s- suggest coaching if someone wants to go deeper into understanding how they can reconcile or kinda remediate some of the issues that are showing up in the chart.

Yeah. Um, and so I've been doing one-on-one coaching. It is taking, and this is something, you know, I have, I also identified, it is a lot of time and energy - Mm-hmm ... to do, um, to do session-based and also one-on-one coaching. Um- Yes ... so event- that's what, that's when the idea for the, for some more prerecorded course- courses with a group call or something like this came into the picture, just to try to alleviate some of that energy drain, I guess you would say.

But at, that's the stage I'm at right now, right? I'm, it's very seasonally driven, so I'm finding that the first half of the year seems to be really booked up with readings, and then I have, I get kind of a few one-on-one coaching clients that follow me for another six months, and then that kinda carries me to the end of the year, and then it cycles again.

So that's kind of how it's been Set up currently. Okay. And what do you enjoy more, the astrology sessions or the one-on-one sessions? I like both. Um, they're- Okay ... so different, so I, um- But you said it's draining. So which one's- Well, it's, it's a- ... more draining? ... it's just a lot of hours of calls, that's all.

It is a lot of hours of calls. You are not wrong. A lot of hours of calls. Yes. Um, I, I think that's what it is. It's not, it's not that I don't wanna do it or I have an issue doing the coaching or anything like this. I love it, but it's just, it takes up a lot of time. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I think that... So how does that relate to the practitioner stuff that you were talking about?

Because that seems unrelated. And this is funny. Again, this has all evolved out of kind of what people are demanding really. Okay. Um, so a lot of the readings that have come through, because the community that I initially started with was a very hardcore kind of community, there are a lot, a lot of them are practitioners.

That's what they do. Right. And so when some of these things were coming up in their charts and they were having blocks or they decided to do one-on-one coaching with me, a lot of the questions started shifting from more kind of resolving their own charts to try to understand how they can deal with their own patients and clients because they were having certain types of blocks.

Um- Okay ... and this was just knowledge that I started to share. So it was, it was something like this that started to... Oddly enough, I kind of fell into it, I guess you would say. Um, but yeah. Okay. That's the best indicator of a market, just so you know. If you fall into it, it's because that's what's in demand.

Yeah. So what becomes clear is that you should not be working with the transitional women thing that you mentioned. Right. You should be working with practitioners, because that's who's clearly in alignment with, will understand the foundations of, and get the shamanic aspect and the whole thing. You don't have to explain it to them, right?

Right. They have a point of reference. If you say it's shamanic in nature, practitioners go, "Oh, I know what that is." Average person on the street, no freaking clue, right? Right. So that's the differential. So your market is other spiritual practitioners. Yeah. Okay? Who have some reference to Chinese medicine.

Okay? Yeah. They may not have practiced it, but they probably had an acupuncture treatment or whatever, yeah, they have some knowledge base, right? And so that's what you're looking for in terms of target market. Okay. And that m- and so your imposter syndrome's gonna be a big issue there. It's a big one. Okay?

Yeah, yeah. So let me, let me talk to you first about- Mm-hmm ... the sales process. Okay. Okay? I, and I wanna reframe this for you, because it is so important to understand that sales is not sleazy. Sales is standing at the door of initiation and opening it and saying, "Would you like to cross the threshold?" It is an invitation to a sacred process, and it is a ritual unto itself.

When you stop thinking of it as sales, as m- trying to g- get money out of somebody- Right ... and instead you look at it and you go, "I have this amazing process that I walk people through." It is an utter initiation, 'cause you're transformational. I can tell just in your energy field- ... you're transformational, right?

So it is an utter initiation process, and it's not for everybody. You have to be ready- Mm-hmm ... and I'm going to evaluate whether you're ready, right? Okay. And you have to want it, and you have to invest in it, in both in your time, and your energy, and your money. Okay. It is an investment, and if you are not ready for any one of those three things, then you're not ready for this program, right?

Right. So you're standing at the doorway, you are the guardian at the gate, and you're, you're a- deciding whether that person is ready or not. And if they're ready, you open the door and you say, "Okay, I think you're ready for this. Are... Do you think you're ready for this? Okay. Are you excited about it?" "Uh, yeah, and a little scared."

"Perfect. That's exactly where you're supposed to be. If you're not a little scared, then there's no transformation that's gonna happen," right? Right. We know the transformation's gonna happen if the scared shows up, right? Right. So what do you think? But the more you think about it as a, um, an initiation, right?

Because that's really what it is, the more you will structure your process as an initiation, and you will structure your programs as an initiation, right? And that creates a magical construct which people will feel when they- Okay ... go to go into it, right? They'll be like, "Oh, I can feel that." It's like, "Yeah.

Just come in. The water is fine. We have cookies," right? But, you know, it's, that's the process. Right. And that's the piece you have to pay attention to. Now- Okay ... with spiritual practitioners who are already up and running and already doing their thing, there is, there's ego on your part, and there's ego on their part.

For sure. Okay? So the ego on your part is, "Am I good enough?" And I love that the camera just zoomed in on you right there.

Yeah ... you know, am I good enough? And I'm gonna tell you what I used to tell all my new real estate agents back in the day. You just have to know this much more than they do about what you're doing. You don't have to know everything. Mm. You just have to know this much more than they do. Just a little bit more, right?

Yes. And if you know just a little bit more than they do, you are the expert in the room. Okay? Expertise is not I know everything about everything. I will tell you, I've been studying this stuff for 50 years, and I didn't know what Chinese astrology was, okay? Now I, you know, of course I'd done the Chinese, the New Years and the Chinese years and the, you know, the things at the restaurants, right?

You know? Yeah. I knew, well, Chinese New Year and I knew this, but I did not know that they had astrologers specific to those things, right? I don't know why it didn't occur to me. It was obvious that it should have, but it didn't, and I definitely never heard of the term BaZi, okay? Okay. And so, you know, and that's 50 years, and I didn't know, okay?

And I'm sitting here on a podcast going out to thousands of people every single week saying, "Yeah, I didn't know about it," okay? And nobody's gonna say, "Well, she's shit because she didn't know that." Nobody's gonna say that, okay? Because I know a lot about a lot of other things, and it's okay if I don't know some stuff, right?

Right. We- nobody knows everything. Yeah. So you have to y- you have to recognize that the, the criticism in your head is a miserable bitch, and you need to tell her to shut up. Okay? Just- Yeah ... yeah. And, you know, for me, my, I named my inner critic Chad a while ago because, you know, hanging chads. And it was like, you know, ugh, Chad's a terrible, terrible sort of feel to me.

Right. And I'm like, "Okay, your name is Chad, and anytime you open your mouth, I'm gonna tell you to shut up, Chad." Right? That's a good one. So, you know, whatever your name is that you- Yeah ... you don't like, you can use that. And for any Chads out there, I apologize. But the, uh, but, you know, the, pick a name that, that, you know, correlates to somebody you don't like.

Okay. Call it that name or, you know, some archetype that you don't like. Right. For me, the archetype was Chad, right? So I don't actually know any Chads. I, I have a friend who uses Chaz. Okay. With a Z, but whatever. And so that's the, that's the piece there. And then- Okay ... what you wanna do is you want to Reinforce your abilities- Mm

instead of tear them down. Okay? You know, sit down and write out a list of all the different people that you've done sessions for. How many people have you done sessions for who have been happy? How many people- Yeah ... you've done sessions for who have not been happy? Know that there are always gonna be people in the world who are not happy with something, right?

Yeah. They are just unhappy people, and they're not happy unless they're unhappy. So, you know, you can't take those people personally. But if you've got 150 people you've done a s- done sessions for who love you, and two who said that they didn't like it, well- Yeah ... yeah. Who cares? They're the miserable people of the world who couldn't receive what you had to say, right?

Yeah. I think that I, I, um, I do realize that some people will be, like, there's, that's gonna be how it's gonna be set up. I think that it's a deeper, you know, we can go into deeper things as well, but it is actually in my chart, believe it or not, um, that I have a bit of this kind of imposter syndrome even though I just kind of am so focused on trying to almost, like, be perfect and knowing everything, which you can't.

No. It's not possible, right? Um- Perfection- ... so I educate myself, and I keep gaining more knowledge and more experience and all this type of stuff, and then when somebody tells me to share, I'm, like, very nervous about it. Yeah. It was kind of funny. Yeah. So, you know, something like that, the more you do it, the more comfortable you become, and the less challenging it gets, right?

Right. You know, that one's a practice piece, uh, in terms of sharing, right? Yeah. But perfection does not exist. It can't. We are inherently in an ever-changing world, and perfection is a, a distinct moment in time. And so it, it flashes into existence and disappears again because the world changes too fast for it to continue.

And so the, the f- just stop worrying about perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect is the enemy of done, okay? Yeah. We just, we need to, to move forward. So work on changing your motivation for learning to be because you love it- Right ... not because you're afr- you're running away from being vilified for being wrong.

Get, get used to being wrong. I want you to, to go out and practice being wrong. Say things- Okay. Yeah. I felt it in your field when I said that. Okay, so this is gonna bring me back to, you know, this is some of the work we do in the- Right ... Professional Spiritual Practitioner Program, but it's working on how you find your value in the world.

And so this is, the, this particular block that I'm seeing in you right now- Mm-hmm ... is going to cause you to undercharge, overdeliver- Yeah ... overgive, right? Yeah. Wear yourself out, burn out. Right. All of that stuff, right? Because you are, you're creating your value in what you do rather than who you are, okay?

And so your value is externally based, which means it is based on people saying they liked what you gave them or giving you money or whatever. There's... And usually what'll happen is that the reason you undercharge is because you're looking for validation in addition to cash. Right? And inherently you understand karmically you can't have both- Right

at full, full throttle, right? Mm-hmm. And you want some of both, and so you undercharge so that you get to have some validation. That's the unconscious process that happens. Okay. Okay? And so I'm betting good money that you're undercharging. I didn't ask your prices, but I'm betting good money that you're undercharging.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. I, I think that most people should be starting at 150 an hour right now should be the prices, uh, based on current day circumstances, so. Okay, so let's come back to this. So clearly, your business is coaching practitioners. Yeah. Great. Okay. The... You have a couple of options as far as how you can do that.

You can sell readings to them, or you can offer free readings as an initial thing, and then bring them into coaching off the back end. Now, the free readings- Right ... is a lot of time, okay? I don't really recommend that for you. Mm-hmm. You know, if you had the ability to do a, you know, "Here's three questions, we'll get it done in 15 minutes" You know, then a free session makes sense, right?

Mm-hmm. If you can get it done in 15 minutes or less, then a free session makes sense. So y- you know, if you can't get it down to 15 minutes as a f- f- free session, then don't do a free session, okay? Free sessions are, are pricey in your time and energy. Uh, you know, ultimately you wanna transition to a pathway that does not take so much of your time to do.

Now, the challenge though, is that practitioners are picky bitches- Mm ... because we want to feel your energy before we say yes to you. And so what you need to do is give them some way to do that. Now, this is why you got- Mm ... so much off the podcasts, right? Right. Is they got a sense of you, they got a chance to, to feel into you, they could feel into your expertise as you were talking, and that's what they're doing.

They're riding their feelings of you and, and your ability to feel good about yourself. Right. If you're confident in what you're talking about, then they are confident in you because we are all empaths, and we feel what you feel. And so if you're feeling imposter syndrome, we will go, "Oh, never mind. Not hiring her."

Right. Right? So you need to feel confident. You need to practice feeling confident. Yeah. And that's... So that's why the podcast did so well is that it's long form, which we love. We're information sponges just like you are. Yeah. There's a reason I know so much random stuff is because I did all of the suck in the information like everybody else does, right?

And so- You know, we like longer form content because it gives us an in-depth understanding of what it is that's going on. So if you can teach us something, we're like, "Ooh, we like to learn things." And then, you know, you, you make an offer at the end that... Now remember, you can't make a big offer at the end of a podcast.

No. Okay? It needs to be a small offer. So it needs to be a come for a reading, or have a discovery call. Even that's a big... It's, somehow paying for a reading is less than a discovery call in people's minds, right? Because they know- It's interesting- ... the discovery call- ... 'cause I've noticed that. Yeah. They know that the discovery call is gonna be for a, a, at least four figure, uh- Yes

offer at the end, right? 'Cause nobody does discovery calls for anything less than four figures, right? So they know that if they say yes to the discovery call, they're looking at a four figure request from them, at least four figures. Mm-hmm. And possibly five, depending on the, the thing. And so discovery calls are hard to get people to come on, uh, at the end of a podcast that you, is not yours, right?

I do a podcast, I make an offer of a discovery call almost every time because, uh, they may have been listening to me for two freaking years, you know? At which point the discovery call is, is sort of de rigueur, is just expected, right? Mm-hmm. So the, um, the thing that you have to keep in mind is to make the offer con- you know, the same size as whatever it is that you're doing, right?

So any free thing, whether it's a free course- Right ... online or a download or a gift or whatever, but it should have a follow-up sequence that takes them from that point to where they're ready to buy whatever it is that you're trying to sell them. Okay. Okay? Think of it as a journey. You're walking next to them, and you're their guide.

And so they come in and they go, "I don't know this lady. Let me... But you know, I've never heard of this stuff, this Chinese astrology stuff before, but it sounds kinda cool, and I like cool new things." Which is usually how practitioners make the buying decisions is, "I like cool new things." Right. And then it's like, "Ooh, what does this cool new thing do?

Maybe I wanna learn how to do it." Right? That's the next step in their heads is like, "Ooh, if this cool new thing is cool, I might, I might get certified in it," right? That's the next thought in their heads, right? Yeah. And then so they're like, "Okay, what does it do? You know, what is the cool new thing? Okay, here's sort of the, the framework."

And so you might be able to s- you know, lay it out for them and say, "The, this is what this is." And you say, you know, "These are the different aspects. This is the different formulas. This is sort of how this works." You give them a, an overview of how it works. That would be a good download, you know, or course, a mini course, right?

Um- Mm-hmm ... because it's that stuff, okay? We love to learn new things, right? From there you go, "Okay, now you understand how this works, and now it's time for you to have one, because you won't really understand wh- what's good about it until you've had one." And then they go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense," and they sign up for that, right?

Yeah. And then you say... You do the session, and then you're like, "Okay, and so from here, the next step is to go into coaching around learning how to do this, and then, you know, learning how to fix whatever the things were that came up in the session," right? Okay. It's like, "Okay, now we go into coaching around this.

Okay, now you've done your coaching around this, and you've gotten to a point where you can see the progress, and you can see how you've improved. Now, do you wanna get certified in it? Okay? One, two, three, four." Okay? That's your step. Okay. And that's how you get people into the process. Okay. Okay? Simplify it.

Yeah. Very simple. Do not make it more complicated than that. Do not make more than one offer to one person at the same time. They will say no because they don't understand. Confused mind says, "No, I don't know which one to pick, therefore I'll pick none." Yeah, I've, I've noticed that actually. I've had a couple of, a couple of people that were referred to go straight into coaching- Mm-hmm

um, that hadn't done readings with me, and they didn't close. Yeah. Um, whereas if someone has done a reading with me, they've gone through that process, they might have even followed me for an s- like, a secondary reading for a follow-up for the next year or something like this. At that point, it's ... They're asking me, actually, versus me having to go and ask them.

So, yeah. So if somebody refers for coaching, you need to look at them and say, "Okay, I'm so glad that you've been referred." Right. "Before we talk about coaching though, I need to do a reading for you. That needs to be our first step." Okay. "And so the reading will give us the context for the coaching." That's how you frame it, okay?

You're like, "I understand that you've come for coaching. You're not ready for it yet. We need to do the reading first." Okay. The reading is the diagnostic that tells us what we're doing in the coaching. And then they go, "Oh, that makes perfect sense. Where do I sign up?" Okay. Okay? And the reading is a lower lift purchase, right?

Yes. So it's significantly less expensive than the coaching, and, and working with somebody that they don't know anything about, that, you know, yes, their friend said that you were good, but it's a big investment, and do we really wanna do that, and I don't know, and, you know, all of the things. But when you get a reading done and you go, "Oh, yeah, those are my things.

Oh." Now it's not about you, it's about their things. So it's a different context. You have to control the flow of the work because that provides a solid container for them to feel like they're safe. Okay. Okay? When you control the flow, they go, "Oh, there's a process. There's a framework that I'm working my way through."

Mm-hmm. "This person has thought it through. I'm not willy-nilly. We're not just hanging out here in the ethers and going, 'I don't know.'" Right? Yeah. It, it's, "Oh, first you do this, then you do this, then you do ... Ah, that makes sense." Right. And somebody who comes in and goes, "I wanna learn how to do what you do," you go, "You need to have a reading first."

Right. "And then you have to do coaching, and then we can talk about it." Because until you have experienced it, you have no, no reason to be facilitating it. Okay Okay? You've gotta hold ethical standards. Yeah. Well, I, I tried the other way just because that's what came through, and it didn't work, so Yeah ... it was, it's kind of- But I'm-

like, well, it's, you know. So now I'm telling you why it didn't work. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Makes- Because that's- ... complete sense. Yeah. That's why. So they don't have a point of reference for you. They don't have anything. Right. And that's the other thing I would do, is that before they get on a call with you, if they've been referred for coaching- Mm-hmm

before they have their ... When you sign them up for their session, right? Bef- in the in-between time between that and the end of the session, I want you to send them a bunch of stuff where they get to know you. Okay. 'Cause you need to develop know, like, trust. Okay? Because it's all well and fine to, to have the reading and be like, "Yeah, I need the things," but the question then becomes, "I need the things, but do I need the things from you?"

And un- unless you've built know, like, trust before you've asked that question, then you're not guaranteed. Because the referral is trust, like, have not been established. It's very easy to say, "Wow, yeah, my friend really loves this person," but I don't know them, and I trust that this, this person is good at what they do because my friend said so, right?

Right. But I don't ... I, you know, I don't know if I know you or like you yet. And unless you can really do a good job establishing that during your reading, you really need to do that in advance. Okay. Okay? Yeah. And so you're very personable, so, you know, you and I have had a reading, and so- Yeah ... the ... By the way, that's why my energetic protection for spiritual practitioners course that I've just launched is out in red, is because that's what you told me.

Part of my reading. Yes. So I put it out in reds. Exactly. Apparently I'm low in water and need more fire or, I don't know, whatever. But yes, that. And I put r- I put reds. And so I'll remember eventually. And, um, so the ... You wanna be very clear about what it is that you're doing is my point. Okay. Okay? Yep. Yeah.

So when you're walking your way through that, you need to develop the know, like, trust, and then you need to be clear about the s- the, the steps that it takes to get there. Got it. And hold that as a requirement. Do not bend it, because the more structured you are in your requirements, the more people will respect your process.

Yep. Okay? I've also experienced that. Yeah. And, uh, what I will say is that I tried testing people further into my process and testing them in. Inevitably, I always have to ha- send them back to the beginning and start over. Right. Because they end up ha- there, there are things that they missed along the way in their, in their personal growth.

So while they may be at this point in- Mm ... in this section, they may have missed an entire foundational piece. And so it's important to do the process in order. Definitely. I've also realized that I've offered in a couple of cases free readings, and then those end up not being appreciated as much as the ones that actually came through and, and paid for a reading.

Yes. Um, and I just thought I was being nice and trying to help someone out. You were rescuing. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Rescuing is always unappreciated. Apparently. Oops. Apparently so. You know, this- I learned that lesson real quick. Yeah. This is where the term no good deed goes unpunished came from, is from rescuing.

I'm a big fan of, you know, I'm, I'm a big fan of be there for somebody if they need you, right? Like, so I got a referral a few days ago from somebody who sent me someone who's deep in grief, and they were like, "Oh, they'd be great for your program." I'm like, "Maybe, but not now," right? Yeah. But in the meantime, I was able to do some healing work for her and to give her my...

I have a clearing, sound healing that clears grief, and so I was able to give her that. So I'm, I trusted that the universe brought her to me for a reason, right? But y- I did not try to rescue her. I did not say, "Oh, let me save you. Let me do this." I d- I, I gave her what she needed and I said, "Call me when you're in a better space," right?

"I would love to talk to you some more, but you are not in any condition right now to talk to me," right? Right. And that's what you have to do. You have to hold your boundaries. Yeah. And you can't let in, this is the other piece, you can't let in problem people, especially if you're doing a group coaching dynamic.

You have to have a process for screening people, and you cannot let in problem people because they make the entire container safe for everyone, unsafe for everyone. You ha- your primary goal has to be the safety of the group, right? And so I don't care if it means turning down money, and some days that's hard, you know, I get it, but you have to say no to the problem childs of the world, problem children of the world.

And you know, this is, this is just the nature of the beast. And so I haven't had to say no to a lot of people, but I have said no to some. And there's always a reason. Um, you need to know what the criteria are that are necessary to be in your program, and that's part of what you need to determine, right? I don't let people...

I'm like, "If you attack another person in the program, you're out." We know this, right? It's okay to be upset, but it's not okay to take it out on other people. Yeah. Right? So that's the, the container you need to hold if you're gonna hold a safe space. Okay. Okay? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. These are different things to think about.

In terms of imposter syndrome- Um, it's, and your externalized sense of value. Those are the two things that I think are gonna be the biggest challenges for you in this. 'Cause I actively, like I said, I did, I kinda deep dived into some of the, the areas that you don't wanna look at, you know? Mm-hmm. The, the little places that you just don't wanna look at because you're like, "Well, it's gonna be fine.

I'm not gonna address that problem." Um, and I'm very hyper-aware that's something that I kinda struggle with. And so yeah, it's now something that I am taking dead on. Like, I'm, I'm really taking it dead on, and, and I've- Yeah ... made the commitment to face that. And when I, when it does come up understand where it's coming from.

Yeah. You know, and trying to, and trying to work through that. That, that is definitely a skill of trying to calibrate that, but it's interesting. I've, I've had that blow up in my face before where I say what is actually there, and the person's like, "No." Okay, sorry about that. That's what I saw. But yeah, working through that is, is, um, is something- So-

that I'm actively working on. All right. So I'll tell you exactly what you do in that scenario, okay? Mm. 'Cause I've, I've run into that before. I'm like, "This is what I'm seeing," and they're like, "No." And I'm, and then I will go back and I will say, "Okay, so visually, this is what I was seeing. And it's like I understand that that's, that the way I phrased it does not resonate with you, but I'm gonna come back to it because there's something here, okay?

So I want you to let go of what I just said, and I'm gonna tell you what I saw rather than how I interpreted it." Right. "And then I'll gi- gonna give you another possible interpretation of the visual that I was given," because imagery has multiple layers and multiple possibilities, and I come back around.

Mm-hmm. I don't accept that it was wrong. I accept that the, it wasn't a way they could hear it, right? Right. Yeah. And so I give them that reference and I go, "Okay. Now, here's what I saw. I saw, you know, a ballerina or, you know, whatever," right? And this is how I interpreted it, you know? A ballerina in a, in a music box, for instance, right?

Okay. Trust your intuition, trust what you see, and say, "Okay, I get that you can't hear it, that this, this pathway might not have been the right one. Let me tell you what I saw, and then we'll go from there." So- I think I'm a little traumatized from being a little too early in things sometimes. Yeah. Uh, early in things?

How so? Early in, in, in seeing, perhaps seeing something quite early before it happens, and then maybe talking about it or bringing it up, um- Okay ... and then, you know, having people be like, "You're wrong," and then it actually does happen. And then at that point- Yeah ... it's kind of almost, like, too late. It's almost like warning people of something, um- Yeah

and it not being received very- Is this in a reading- ... open arms ... or out of a reading? That, it, this is my own thing that I've had to work on as just a practitioner in general, but it's, it used to happen all the time, like, kind of I would get taken out with a vision or something like this and I would see something happen, um, like the future- In a reading or outside of a reading?

Outside of a reading as well as in readings. Okay. So let me explain to you- Yeah ... the difference. Outside of a reading, you need to ask permission before you give anything, okay? You don't say, "Hey, I had a vision you need to know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," right? You say, "I got a piece of information for you.

Don't think you're gonna like it. Do you want it?" And if they say no, you have to sit on it. Hardest thing you'll ever do in your life. So hard, okay? But you have to have permission before giving anything to anybody, or else they will not receive it. I'm like, ha- Yeah ... yeah. Anyway, the, the point is that you have to...

You need permission. Yeah. Okay? So that's number one. Number two is if you know they're not gonna like it, I always preface it with, "I don't-- You're not gonna like this. Are you ready?" And so it's- A warning ... not a shock. It's a warning. So if it's a shock, they'll go straight into defense. But if you warn them, they're like, "Okay, I'm ready."

They're bracing for it. They'll brace. They're like- They're gonna brace. Oh, did you see what I just- "What have you got?" Because they've... And it, again, it's permission, right? You s- Yeah ... you tell them that they're not gonna like it. You tell them it's gonna be a challenge, and you ask them if they're ready.

That, again, is permission. So anytime you have something you know is gonna be challenging, get permission before you do it, okay? That makes it so much easier, and you don't get that response, right? You'll get the... You might get a face. And, uh, that doesn't resonate, but they won't be like, "No." And with the resonate piece, you're like, "Okay, let's talk through it and go back to the stuff we talked about before."

But yeah, you gotta warn them. Yeah. Yeah. I just stopped warning. I, or not, stopped saying anything. Yeah. I'm just not gonna say anything that I see outside of our... But that's actually really helpful, because it is helpful sometimes for people to know. Yes. They might need to really know. Yes, and that's the reason they're giving you the message is because- Yeah

somebody needs to get the message to them. Yeah. And so, you know, they'll give it to people until somebody gets the message across and, you know, or they'll, they'll eventually get the message across themselves through experience. But- Right ... uh, you know, sometimes that lands you in the hospital, so we prefer to avoid that path, you know?

Yeah. But yes, that's, that's the critical factor is permission, and took me a long time to figure that one out, so you're welcome. Thank you. That helps me a lot. I was just being quiet after that. Yeah. After that, after that happened a few times, I was like, "I'm just gonna be quiet and share what I see," unless it's explicitly asked for.

Yeah. My opinion is asked for, in other words, or whatever it might be. Yeah, I wasn't good at that, so I figured out the permission piece. I wasn't good at shutting up. Go figure. I have a podcast. It's your gift. This is a good thing That's my thing, baby. That's my thing. A chat chat. Anyway, okay, so I feel like we've sort of run the gamut.

Is there anything else you wanted to know about before we finished up? No, that was super helpful. Honestly, um, I was feeling like I was being pulled in many directions, um, but didn't quite understand how to kinda narrow things in. Again, I think a lot of it just was because I... All of the things that I've been doing have evolved out of kind of it just happening.

It's just kind of like I fell into it somehow, and, um, which is, it's a good thing and it's also a bad thing because then I'm, I'm kind of not 100% on how I got to where I am. It just kinda happened, and that's where I'm hitting kind of these plateaus, and I think that what we've discussed today was really helpful because it's gonna help me push to the next level, and also just focus my time in the right places instead of just trying to throw spaghetti at the wall and see where it sticks.

Um, which, you know, takes a lot of energy for sure, and that's a valuable resource. We don't wanna spend it. So yeah, so it was really helpful. Thank you so much. It really just helped me narrow in on things. Yeah. My pleasure, and thank you. Yeah. Um, so I really appreciate you coming on the show. H- Remind people how they find you.

Yeah. You can find me at, uh, greendragonhealer.com. Okay. Fantastic. Yeah. And that is it for this week. Please share this with a friend if you have found this to be helpful, uh, because I promise you, they will find it helpful too, and that will be a lovely karmic balance for you getting the information. And, uh, remember, what you focus on expands.

What you intend is what you create, so choose wisely.