Dixie: 00:00:02

Welcome to Animal Posse, the podcast dedicated to the

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people and rescues making a

difference in the lives of animals.

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Today I am joined by a very special

guest, Fiona Murphy, a rabbit

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bonding specialist who helps turn

fluffy roommates into best friends.

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We're diving into the art and

occasional chaos of bunny bonding.

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So whether you're a rabbit parent

or you just love a good animal

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story, you're in the right place.

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So let's get into it.

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Hi Fiona

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Thank you for coming on the show.

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This is very exciting for me because

you are my first international guest,

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Fiona: The internet makes the

the world very small, doesn't it?

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Dixie: It sure does.

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Yeah.

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So you were recommended- Sure ... by

another guest of ours, Maria, who came on

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and she was talking about rabbits 'cause

she does a lot of rabbit and bunny rescue.

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Okay.

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Yeah, so she did recommend you,

and I see- Oh, lovely ... that you

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are a rabbit bonding specialist.

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So I am interested- Yeah ... in

hearing all about that.

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Okay ... from my take on rabbits,

I've had a couple of rabbit guests

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come on already, and they talked about

the importance of bonding bunnies.

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And for me, I never- Yeah ... knew that.

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I always kinda thought that if you

got a single bunny, you would be okay.

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And, all these guests that I've had

on are- ... always telling people,

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"No, bunnies are very social animals,

and they should have a companion."

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And- Yes ... so they always talk about

bonding bunnies, but I really have no

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idea what's involved with bonding a bunny.

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So I would definitely- Okay.

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Okay ... like to talk about that.

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So how did you get into it, first of all?

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Great.

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Fiona: So I've been doing rabbit

boarding since: 2014

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find somebody to look after our

bunnies when we went on holidays.

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We had a good few bunnies at that

stage, and I started offering holiday

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boarding 'cause I figured if I had

this problem, other people must

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have this problem, and they did.

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And then in 2016, one of my

customers came to me and said would

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I help them bond their bunnies.

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They were really desperate, and

their bunnies were living separate.

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They were living in an apartment, and

they couldn't get them to stop fighting,

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and they wanted them to live together.

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They got the second rabbit so the

first one would have a friend, but

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they couldn't get them to be friends,

and it wasn't a sustainable situation.

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They were gonna have to rehome

one of the bunnies if they weren't

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able to get them to be friends.

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So I said, "Look, I know the

theory of it, but I've never

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actually done it in practice.

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If you want me to try, I will."

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And I did, and it worked, and

I've been doing it ever since.

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So I started bonding here mostly

for my customers and other people.

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I think I'm the only rabbit

bonder in Ireland, actually.

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So people travel from all over Ireland

to come to me, and then over COVID

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then I had people starting to ring me

looking for help because they had got

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a second rabbit while they were on

lockdown thinking that the bunny needed

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com-company before they went back to

work, and the rabbits were fighting.

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So I started offering advice on the

phone, and then it became Zoom because

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we were in COVID and people heard about

me in different countries, and now I

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help people all over the world because,

like I was just saying, the internet is

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a small place, so it's great to be able

to help people no matter where they are.

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I've helped people in Australia,

America, Canada, the Seychelles, Israel

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Dubai, loads of different places.

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Dixie: Wow, that's amazing.

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How many bunnies or

clients have you helped?

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Fiona: So I have bonded over 290

sets myself, and I've lost count

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of people I've helped, but I'm

thinking it's around 250 probably.

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So over 500 altogether between the

ones I've done in person and the ones

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that I've done helping people online.

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So I really love it because ironically,

yes, they should be kept in pairs,

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but they quite often go into fight

mode when they meet each other.

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They're super territorial and it's a shock

to people's system because the rabbits

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look so cute and fluffy, and next thing

they're tearing fluff out of each other

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and they're injuring each other, and if

you're not very careful, they can really

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do really bad damage to each other.

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Sometimes they're fighting out of fear,

sometimes they're aggressive because

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they've come from a rescue situation and

they don't trust anybody or anything.

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Sometimes they're just trying to figure

out who is the boss because their

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hierarchy is so important to them.

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You need one to be dominant and one

to be submissive in a pair in order

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for it to work, or two rabbits that

really don't care that much and

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they're happy enough just muddling

along, sharing and being happy.

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But if you have two that go in as being

dominant or think that they're going

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to be dominant at the start, that's

when the fights can happen and people

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end up with injuries, and I've done

a lot of rebonding where rabbits have

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been together as babies and then the

hormones kick in and then they fall out.

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So people get two babies thinking,

"That's great, I'll have two babies

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forever and they can stay together

forever," and then they're really

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surprised then when the rabbits fall

out because people don't tell them that.

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They just sell two babies together.

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And the females nearly always

fall out, but the boys 99.99%.

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And it comes out of nowhere sometimes,

and they're cuddling and snuggling

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one day and then the next they're

tearing lumps out of each other.

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So a lot of what I do is rebonding in that

situation, or people who've tried to bond

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and the rabbits have injured each other

and they've got this grudge they need to

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get over as well, because they're like

elephants, they don't forget very easily.

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Dixie: When you're talking about

bonding them, is there ever a situation

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where they will not rebond or where

you cannot bond a pair of bunnies?

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Fiona: It's very unlikely.

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I think there's a lot of narrative

online that this is the way to bond

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rabbits and if this doesn't work,

then your rabbits aren't bondable.

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Whereas I'm very much about a holistic

approach, I suppose you could say,

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a tailor-made situation for every

pair of rabbits because the rabbits

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are very sensitive and they have

big personalities and they're quite

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complex, and people who don't have

rabbits don't tend to understand that.

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And They have big emotions sometimes

and they can come into a situation,

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from a rescue for example, and they

could have been abused or neglected

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and or, straying and just dumped.

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And they bring all that into the

bonding pen with them as well.

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So it's a really a case of tailor

making your plan to the rabbits

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that you have in front of them.

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And then most of the time it

is absolutely possible to bond.

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I don't believe that most

rabbits can't be bonded.

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I do believe they can be bonded.

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The few that I haven't had success with

have been through really traumatic things.

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They've been, really been through a

horrific time before they were adopted.

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There was one where it was rescued

from the mouth of a coyote.

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There was another one that had

been living in like this outdoor

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area with lots of different bunnies

that were just constantly fighting.

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And sometimes they're just too traumatized

to ever really trust other bunnies.

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But even with that, I still think

probably eventually if they found the

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right rabbit, they could become friends.

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But you have to draw the line

at some point and not put them

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through it , if it's too stressful

for them and it's not working.

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It's not fair to put

them through the stress.

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But generally speaking, you can do it in

as stress-free way as possible, and it

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works as long as you find the right method

and you just keep trying different things

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till you find the right thing that works.

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Dixie: And you're 100% self-taught,?

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Fiona: Yes.

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Yes, exactly.

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Yes.

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So- Yeah, so just-

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Dixie: How did you go about finding

the information that worked for you?

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Fiona: I just did an awful lot

of Googling really, and reading

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up as much as I possibly could.

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There is some really good information

on the internet, but the problem is

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that a lot of it is conflicting now.

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And there's very few people doing what I

do that have the experience that I have.

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And so people look at it and go,

"Okay, this is conflicting and I

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just don't know w- who to listen to."

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And of course then every rabbit is

different and every bond is different,

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so that can be very confusing as well

because you can go onto a Facebook

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group and ask for advice or Google

and, somebody can say, "Oh, yes,

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this is how you bond your rabbits."

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But the reality of it is that a lot

of people are, have never bonded or

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have only bonded one or two bonds, and

that's great, but- it can come across

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as they've bonded a lot of rabbits and

then people think that it should work

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and then they get very discouraged.

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So I did an awful lot of research and

I still do a lot of research and I find

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good resources and listen to good re-

resources and other people who have

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experience, like people in rescues.

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And I think we're always honing our craft,

so to speak, because sometimes you come

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up a situation that you've never come

up against before or a personality trait

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or an experience that a rabbit has had.

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I've bonded rabbits that are blind,

rabbits that are deaf, rabbits that

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have three legs, rabbits that have

ripped each other's ears out, one that

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was left with a limp after a fight so

badly and still managed to bond them.

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So it's really just a case of finding

what works for them, but it's a challenge

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if you find a situation like that.

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And then you learn something from it

because the rabbits teach you something.

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It's amazing.

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Dixie: Yeah, that's incredible.

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And, just for people that are getting into

rabbits and, they might see a cute bunny

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in the pet store or something like that.

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And of course, there's- always

the problem with Easter, with

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everybody wanting a bunny.

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Yes.

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And I- That's right ... I don't think

people that are new to rabbits really

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realize that they fight, 'cause they- Yes

... like you said, they- Yes ... are such like

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a cute, docile looking little creature.

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Yes.

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And they can do some serious-

Yeah ... damage to - to each other.

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And I would imagine it's- ... it's from

their teeth and probably their back feet,

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? Fiona: Yes, their teeth and their nails.

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Absolutely, yes.

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And they behave very differently

with other rabbits than

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they do with us as well.

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And you can have a really sweet rabbit

who's just loves their humans and is

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really gentle and affectionate with their

humans, but you put them in a pen with

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another rabbit and all hell breaks loose.

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So yeah, it's an awful shock to

people and I wish there was more

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streamlined information out there

so that people would realize what's

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normal and what's not normal.

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Because a lot of people come to me

when the rabbits have fought straight

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away and then they think that's it.

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They're not bondable."

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And I'm like, "I don't believe that.

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I think we just need to find the

right thing and let's keep trying,"

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and we usually get there in the end.

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So the narrative definitely needs to

change out there and I'm working on that.

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Dixie: You said you take

a holistic approach.

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What do you mean by that?

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Fiona: So I, I tailor make the

process and the setup and the

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environment and the timing to

work for those particular rabbits.

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There's a lot of variables in bonding.

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So basically, to explain it a little bit,

it's like a dating process, so you have

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to allow the rabbits to get to know each

other and to trust each other and work

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out their hierarchy, who's boss, and then

they fall in love then after that, and

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then they'll start grooming and snuggling.

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But there's a lot of things to go through

before you actually get to that stage.

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Sometimes when you put them

together, they fight straight away.

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Sometimes one rabbit is trying to

mount the other rabbit and the other

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rabbit doesn't want it, and so they

nip and they bite, but that's one of

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the ways they work out their hierarchy.

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But the problem is that if you step in

too early because you don't want them to

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hurt each other, which a lot of people do,

completely understandably 'cause they're

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their fur babies, they don't want them

to get hurt, but then they can't work out

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their hierarchy because you're stopping

them interacting and figuring that out.

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And if you step in too late,

then you risk an injury.

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So there's a very fine line as to exactly

when to step in, and you have to learn

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to read their body language and their

behaviors, and it's something that just

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having done as many bonds as I have now,

that I'm able to pick up fairly quickly.

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And then I can see whether something

is working for the rabbits or not.

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So for example, you're supposed

to start in a small space and

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then gradually expand it, but that

doesn't always work for all rabbits.

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Sometimes they need a bigger space to

get away from each other a little bit.

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Some people would say you should put

things into the pen, like somewhere,

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a hut for them to hide in, but that

doesn't always work because sometimes

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. they need to be able to

get away from each other.

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Sometimes that hinges the process

because they just sit in the hut

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and are territorial over the hut.

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There can be different things

that you can put in the pen.

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Some people say just put hay in

the pen and anything else can,

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they can be territorial over.

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But then you can also put in

pellets and treats and forage

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to distract them as well.

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Sometimes the timing makes a difference,

what time you're bonding at, because

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they're more active at dawn and dusk.

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So sometimes it can make the world

of difference if you bond in the

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middle of the afternoon, for example,

when they tend to be a bit more

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sleepy and have their nap time.

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So there's a lot of different things,

that, that can be done to change things up

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and sometimes, although you should allow

something like mounting, for example,

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because that's a territorial behavior,

if the other rabbit is really having a

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problem with that, then that's something

you don't allow for that particular

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bond, and they have to figure out a

different way to work out their hierarchy.

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So it needs to be tweaked

constantly, really, in order to

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make it work most of the time.

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Sometimes they fall in love

straight away, but it's rare.

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Dixie: What is the average, time,

that it takes for them to get along?

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Fiona: So it depends very much on the

time people are able to put into it.

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When I'm bonding and the rabbits come

to me for bonding, I would do about 40

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to 50 hours of intensive sessions across

the week, and then they go home, and

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the parents then, the bunny parents then

would spend the next week or two tweaking

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things, extending the space, maybe giving

them free roam if they're used to having

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free roam space, maybe moving them outside

gradually if they live in an outdoor area.

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And I walk them through all that as well.

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Obviously, that's all part

of me doing it for them.

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So that will take maybe a week to

two weeks after they get them home.

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So I guess, it can be how

long is a piece of string.

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Some of them, bond a

lot quicker than others.

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Like I say, they can bond quite quickly,

and then sometimes they can take longer.

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And then there's different

timings that you can do.

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So some people like to go 24/7, which

means they straightaway go in and put the

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bunnies together, and the bunnies are not

separated at all until they're bonded.

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And , in a good bond, that could

take maybe a week to two weeks.

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But other people like to do it slowly

around their work, so they might do an

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hour or two in the evenings and then

longer days at the weekend, for example.

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That way it might take a bit slower,

it might take six or eight weeks.

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If it's going on much longer than

that and you are putting in the hours,

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then there's something that needs to

be adjusted with the process 'cause

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it really shouldn't take that long.

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Dixie: I know with cats yeah, I

rescue cats, so whenever somebody-

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Okay ... adopts a cat or a kitten

and they have another cat at home, we

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always- Yeah ... have to tell people

that, "Okay, you gotta put one in a

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small room, and then, you gradually let

'em sniff each other through the door.

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You crack the door, let

'em- ... see each other.

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Then- ... you put one in a carrier.

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You bring it in the room where the

resident cat lives so they can sniff each

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other- Okay ... through the carrier."

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And- ... for the most part, if people

do that and they take their time, - the

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resident cat will accept the new cat.

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Fiona: Okay.

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Dixie: How is the

situation with the rabbits?

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Do you just put the two rabbits together

automatically or do you have to have

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something separating them so they can

kinda sniff and see each other first?

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Fiona: Yeah.

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So that's called pre-bonding.

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And some people think it

doesn't make any difference.

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But again, it's another

variable out there.

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Some people say you should

keep them in separate rooms.

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They shouldn't see each other at all

especially if they've had a fight

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in the past or they're new to each

other, then you should just start

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putting them in the pen together

and that's the first time they meet.

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But I actually go the other way.

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I think that they should be housed side

by side, so I recommend that people put

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them in two pens side by side like that.

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Or if one of the rabbits free roams,

then they put the second rabbit into a

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pen in the space that the other rabbit

lives in, a bit like your cat situation.

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And they can then- Get to

know each other a little bit.

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They can get to sniff each other.

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They can see each other, get

used to each other's movements.

293

: 00:15:06

We do recommend that they have a space

between the bars if you're gonna put

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: 00:15:10

two pens together or you double bars

because they can actually fight through

295

: 00:15:13

the bars, and I have seen pictures

online of rabbits that have ripped

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: 00:15:16

each other's noses fairly badly.

297

: 00:15:18

It's a case of allowing them

to do it in a safe situation.

298

: 00:15:21

But I find that rabbits who come into me

for bonding when that has happened tend

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: 00:15:25

to behave as though they know each other

a little bit, and bonding is a little bit

300

: 00:15:29

easier, so I do think that really helps.

301

: 00:15:30

So I usually recommend people keep

them separate for, a week or something

302

: 00:15:34

when they bring the new bunny home,

quarantine them just to make sure

303

: 00:15:37

they're not carrying anything to your

new bunny, let them settle in before

304

: 00:15:40

you expose them to the other rabbit,

and then maybe spend a couple of weeks

305

: 00:15:43

with them side by side before they start

bonding, 'cause it's a bit of a shock

306

: 00:15:48

to their system sometimes when they're

coming from a rescue situation or they're

307

: 00:15:51

coming from a new, a different home.

308

: 00:15:52

So it's good to settle in first.

309

: 00:15:55

Dixie: What about the case

when you get two dominant ones?

310

: 00:15:58

Do you approach that differently

from getting one submissive

311

: 00:16:01

and one dominant one?

312

: 00:16:03

Fiona: Usually when you have what appear

to be two dominant rabbits is it's quite

313

: 00:16:08

often not actually two dominant rabbits.

314

: 00:16:09

So it's quite rare to actually

get two dominant rabbits where

315

: 00:16:13

one of them won't back down.

316

: 00:16:15

So usually when you go through the

process over time and tweaking things

317

: 00:16:19

and changing the setup and the timing

and the environment and all that kind

318

: 00:16:22

of stuff, usually what you find is that

one of the rabbits eventually backs down

319

: 00:16:26

and decides that they don't actually

care that much about being dominant,

320

: 00:16:29

and actually they'd quite like a friend.

321

: 00:16:31

So that matters more to

them than being dominant.

322

: 00:16:34

But it can also look as though they're

too dominant and what's happening is

323

: 00:16:38

the dominant rabbit is attacking and

the submissive rabbit is attacking

324

: 00:16:41

back just as a reaction, or one

or both rabbits can be attacking

325

: 00:16:46

each other out of fear as well.

326

: 00:16:47

So that's where I'm saying that people

think sometimes that if you put them

327

: 00:16:50

together and they fight straight away,

that they're not bondable, and actually

328

: 00:16:53

what's happening there is they're just

having a communication problem and a

329

: 00:16:56

hierarchy issue, and if we help them

through it by knowing when to step in

330

: 00:17:00

and also being gentle with them and

tweaking the process and maybe doing

331

: 00:17:04

shorter sessions, for example, or longer

sessions, sometimes immersing them more

332

: 00:17:07

in it and doing longer sessions can help.

333

: 00:17:09

Sometimes they need short bite-sized

sessions to adjust to each other.

334

: 00:17:13

So it's all about just being

very sensitive to the rabbit's

335

: 00:17:16

emotions and personalities,

336

: 00:17:18

Dixie: I know, like I said with

the cats, I try to help people

337

: 00:17:22

when they're adopting a cat and

bringing it into another multi-cat-

338

: 00:17:24

household to get things to work out.

339

: 00:17:26

And for the most part, like I

said- Yes ... if they follow the

340

: 00:17:28

advice that I'm giving or other

rescues give it's very successful.

341

: 00:17:33

Now- Great ... I hear people

say often though that, "Okay my

342

: 00:17:38

cat hates other cats-" my cat

cannot ever accept another cat.

343

: 00:17:42

And I find there's- Yeah ... situations,

but it's a rare situation where

344

: 00:17:47

you're gonna have a cat- ... that

won't accept another cat.

345

: 00:17:49

It just takes time-

Yeah ... for you to work with.

346

: 00:17:52

So do you find- Exactly ... like

a lot of people wanna just kinda

347

: 00:17:55

give up when they say, "Okay I'm

gonna get my rabbit a friend."

348

: 00:17:59

They get a rabbit and then they're like,

"Okay, I'm gonna have to rehome this

349

: 00:18:03

rabbit," because they don't wanna put

in the time- ... to try to make it work.

350

: 00:18:08

Fiona: Yeah, sometimes, and I think

there's a lot of anxiety caught up

351

: 00:18:11

in it as well because people have

read the horror stories online

352

: 00:18:14

and they see that the rabbits

can hurt each other very badly.

353

: 00:18:17

Or sometimes what can happen is

the rabbits can get into each other

354

: 00:18:20

and they will fight if they do.

355

: 00:18:21

So if you have them side by side, you

really need to Fort Knox down the place

356

: 00:18:25

because they can be very determined and

if one rabbit suddenly lands in the other

357

: 00:18:28

one's space, they're going to have a

go at them because they're territorial.

358

: 00:18:31

But again, it doesn't

mean they can't be bonded.

359

: 00:18:33

But I think because people don't have

the tools to know how to bond because

360

: 00:18:37

they've read stuff online and it hasn't

worked, or they've read a whole load

361

: 00:18:41

of conflicting stuff and they're just

overwhelmed and don't know where to start,

362

: 00:18:44

that they can read that as the rabbits

aren't bondable and actually following

363

: 00:18:48

advice from somebody like myself who would

coach them through the process can really

364

: 00:18:52

make the world of difference and that's

evident , in my success rate because it's

365

: 00:18:57

just a case of finding the right thing.

366

: 00:18:59

But people have to be prepared to put

the time and effort into it as well,

367

: 00:19:02

and I think when people sometimes get

a second rabbit, they've read online,

368

: 00:19:05

"You should get a second rabbit, your

rabbit needs company," and they don't

369

: 00:19:07

realize how much work goes into it.

370

: 00:19:10

And it's so totally worth it

because once you get them through

371

: 00:19:12

it and they're grooming and

snuggling and playing together,

372

: 00:19:14

it's just the most amazing thing.

373

: 00:19:16

It's so worth it.

374

: 00:19:17

And lots of people say to me, "Oh, I

wish I'd done it sooner," and, "It's so

375

: 00:19:20

worth all the hours I've put into it."

376

: 00:19:22

But you do have to put the time

into it and make the commitment and,

377

: 00:19:26

pause some of your stuff going on.

378

: 00:19:28

I do think you can fit

it around your lifestyle.

379

: 00:19:29

I don't think you have to completely

cancel your life while you're doing it.

380

: 00:19:33

And I help people to fit it around their

lifestyle so they're not stressed, but

381

: 00:19:36

it is a commitment to do it and I suppose

not everybody's , in the mindset to do it

382

: 00:19:41

or has the time or the emotional strength

to do it because it is quite emotional.

383

: 00:19:45

But I would say to anybody out

there who's having a problem,

384

: 00:19:48

please talk to me about it.

385

: 00:19:50

I'm happy to give a little bit of advice.

386

: 00:19:52

I do a free 15-minute call.

387

: 00:19:53

I'd like to hear what's going on

with your bunnies and I can tell

388

: 00:19:56

you from the situation whether

it's worth trying again or not.

389

: 00:19:59

Whether you get my help or not, it can be

really helpful just to hear, just to talk

390

: 00:20:03

to somebody who knows what you're talking

about and g- get it off your chest and

391

: 00:20:06

to hear that it might be worth another

go and things, if things are tweaked

392

: 00:20:10

that it can quite often be successful.

393

: 00:20:12

It's just very emotional with

our fur babies, isn't it?

394

: 00:20:14

We don't want them to hurt each other

and we want them to be happy, and

395

: 00:20:17

people get stressed as well about

putting them through that and they

396

: 00:20:21

wonder are they better off on their own,

397

: 00:20:23

Dixie: yeah, and I think sometimes too

that- your stress transfers over to them.

398

: 00:20:28

So if you're having anxiety about the

situation- Yeah ... that anxiety actually

399

: 00:20:32

causes your animals to have anxiety, too?

400

: 00:20:36

Fiona: Absolutely agree with that.

401

: 00:20:37

Totally, yes.

402

: 00:20:38

And a lot of what I do is coaching

the people as well as coaching them

403

: 00:20:41

to bond the bunnies because I think

people need a lot of encouragement and

404

: 00:20:45

support as they're doing it because

you don't see the wood for the trees.

405

: 00:20:48

You can't see whether you're making any

progress or not, and sometimes you need

406

: 00:20:52

somebody just to say, "You're doing great.

407

: 00:20:53

Keep going," and I can see that they're

making progress even though you can't.

408

: 00:20:57

And yes, absolutely anything that

you can do to help de-stress when

409

: 00:21:00

you're doing this, doing the bonding

can make a huge difference 'cause

410

: 00:21:03

they do pick up on it, definitely.

411

: 00:21:06

Dixie: Typically when you do the bonding

and it's gonna be a pair, can you add .. a

412

: 00:21:10

third or a fourth to that pair or should

you just strictly stick with a pair?

413

: 00:21:15

Fiona: Yeah, absolutely you can.

414

: 00:21:16

Yes, and lots of people have

fluffles, as they call them,

415

: 00:21:19

like a bigger gang of bunnies.

416

: 00:21:21

So you can absolutely add a third

or a fourth or bond two pairs

417

: 00:21:26

together or bond a couple of

groups of smaller groups together.

418

: 00:21:29

It's more work.

419

: 00:21:30

It takes longer because there's a lot of

different personalities and different,

420

: 00:21:34

a lot of different dynamics going on.

421

: 00:21:35

So a trio, for example, will take longer

than a pair because there's a whole load

422

: 00:21:39

of different individual relationships

going on, as well as working out who's

423

: 00:21:43

top dog and who's second and who's third.

424

: 00:21:45

But it's absolutely possible, and

they do really well in groups as well.

425

: 00:21:49

So if you're prepared to put the

time and effort into it, it can

426

: 00:21:52

be lovely it's a great way to

get more bunnies adopted as well.

427

: 00:21:55

There's so many bunnies looking

for homes, aren't there?

428

: 00:21:57

So many dumped.

429

: 00:21:57

I know you have a big problem in in the US

with it and we've a big problem in Ireland

430

: 00:22:01

and the UK as well with it where bunnies

are just being dumped left and center.

431

: 00:22:04

So if you can add to your fluffle, do.

432

: 00:22:07

It's great.

433

: 00:22:10

Dixie: How do your online

coaching sessions work?

434

: 00:22:13

Do you have to do it like Zoom where you

would actually see the pair or do you

435

: 00:22:17

just go based off of the cues of what

the the pet parents are telling you?

436

: 00:22:24

Fiona: So I like to see

videos if at all possible.

437

: 00:22:27

So I always recommend people , to video

their sessions or try and catch videos

438

: 00:22:31

of the behaviors that they're seeing.

439

: 00:22:33

So if they can have a second person

doing a little bit of videoing or set

440

: 00:22:37

up a pet camera or their mobile phone

to record, that can be really helpful.

441

: 00:22:41

Because sometimes people are

misreading the behavior and

442

: 00:22:44

actually what's what's going on is

not what they think is going on.

443

: 00:22:47

So for example, the other day I had a

lady come to me and she said that her--

444

: 00:22:51

one of her rabbits was food aggressive.

445

: 00:22:54

And when I looked at the videos, I

could actually see that the rabbit was

446

: 00:22:58

trying to control the other rabbit's

movements, and it was territorial

447

: 00:23:02

over the owner, not the food.

448

: 00:23:03

So that flipped on its head completely

how we were approaching the bond

449

: 00:23:07

and what we needed to do and

changed the setup and everything,

450

: 00:23:10

and it's working really well now.

451

: 00:23:11

So obviously people are new to

doing it and they're just getting--

452

: 00:23:15

stuck in the woods for they can't

see the trees for the whole thing.

453

: 00:23:18

It can be difficult to read the

bunny's behavior, and it can be

454

: 00:23:21

really helpful to me to see videos.

455

: 00:23:23

So most of my sessions would involve

people show me videos of what's happening.

456

: 00:23:27

I don't generally do a Zoom call while the

bunnies are in the bonding pen, because

457

: 00:23:31

by the time the bunnies do something and

I tell the owner what to do and then they

458

: 00:23:35

inter-intercept the behavior, it could

be too late and could have an injury.

459

: 00:23:38

So it's better for them to do the

session and then feed back to me.

460

: 00:23:41

And then I also provide them with videos.

461

: 00:23:44

All of my options, I provide a

video of bonding behaviors bonding

462

: 00:23:48

sessions that I have done myself,

because you can read online, "Don't

463

: 00:23:52

allow lunging, don't allow chasing.

464

: 00:23:55

Nipping is okay, but biting isn't."

465

: 00:23:56

And you're like what's the difference?"

466

: 00:23:58

And just reading the

words doesn't help you.

467

: 00:24:00

So I video my own bonding sessions,

cut them down into short videos, and

468

: 00:24:04

I can tell-- and then I tell you with

each video, "This is this behavior.

469

: 00:24:07

This is what it looks like.

470

: 00:24:09

This is okay.

471

: 00:24:10

Just watch and make sure it doesn't

escalate," or, "This is not okay."

472

: 00:24:13

And if it's not okay, how to step

in so that the rabbits don't go

473

: 00:24:16

straight back into fight mode again.

474

: 00:24:17

So that-- a lot of people find that

really helpful because they can

475

: 00:24:20

interpret it, their own bunny's

behavior then because of that.

476

: 00:24:25

And then I walk them through the steps

online with Zoom as well then, and I tell

477

: 00:24:28

them when to expand and when to add stuff

and when to start free roaming and how to

478

: 00:24:33

do all those things, dependent on the pair

that I'm working with or the bond that I'm

479

: 00:24:37

working with, because it's all different

and they have to go-- You have to go at

480

: 00:24:40

the rabbit's pace, you can go too fast

and rush things, and then you don't have

481

: 00:24:43

a strong bond, or you can go too slow,

and then that can cause problems because

482

: 00:24:46

the rabbits are bored and frustrated.

483

: 00:24:49

So timing is very nuanced as well.

484

: 00:24:53

Dixie: Yeah.

485

: 00:24:53

This has been a very interesting

conversation, and I will say

486

: 00:24:56

I'm, , learning a lot from it.

487

: 00:24:58

And I think this is a great resource

for prospective rabbit owners to have

488

: 00:25:04

too, because we have a problem with

people dumping rabbits and bunnies And

489

: 00:25:10

I don't think- Yeah ... a lot of people

always consider a rabbit for adoption

490

: 00:25:13

when they're considering adding a pet.

491

: 00:25:15

That seems to be the one that

is considered as a starter pet.

492

: 00:25:20

It's a very easy pet to add

when it's not, yes, not at

493

: 00:25:23

Fiona: all.

494

: 00:25:23

Dixie: Yeah, it requires as much

research as getting a cat or a dog.

495

: 00:25:27

It's, you know- Absolutely ... you

need to know what to feed it.

496

: 00:25:30

You need to know what the behaviors mean.

497

: 00:25:32

And I think- Yeah ... that this resource

that you are offering is great because

498

: 00:25:37

it is keeping bunnies in homes, and it's

keeping- ... them happier too, because

499

: 00:25:42

it's putting a pair together and, they'll

have a companion- Yeah ... for life.

500

: 00:25:48

Fiona: Yes, and they think from research

that bonded bunnies are happier and

501

: 00:25:52

they're healthier and it's more natural

than the way they're in the wild and

502

: 00:25:55

they, that they don't ever really relax

when they're on their own because as

503

: 00:25:59

prey animals, they're used to watching

out to see if there's a predator around.

504

: 00:26:03

And so they never really switch off if

they're on their own, and yet if they're

505

: 00:26:06

in a bonded pair, they can take it

in turns and they can actually relax.

506

: 00:26:09

So that's obviously better for their

nervous system, better for their health.

507

: 00:26:13

And yeah, and this is why I love doing it

because I, know for a fact that helping

508

: 00:26:16

people bond their bunnies is keeping them

happier and healthier and keeping them

509

: 00:26:19

in homes as well, and also allows people

to adopt because they know that I can

510

: 00:26:24

support them through the bonding process.

511

: 00:26:26

I work quite closely with our local SPCA,

and they refer people to me for bonding,

512

: 00:26:30

and it's really a great collaboration

between us because I recommend them

513

: 00:26:34

for people to adopt bunnies when I know

somebody's looking for one, and then they

514

: 00:26:38

send people to me for boarding and bonding

and care and behavior 'cause I do all

515

: 00:26:41

that as well if they need help with that.

516

: 00:26:43

And it's working really well to help

support bunny parents who don't want

517

: 00:26:46

to guess what they're doing and don't

want to rely on Google when it's so

518

: 00:26:50

conflicting for everything about bunnies.

519

: 00:26:54

Dixie: How can people

get in touch with you?

520

: 00:26:57

Fiona: So I have a website

called thebunnybondingcoach.com,

521

: 00:27:00

and that has all my options on it.

522

: 00:27:03

There is a free 15-minute call link if

you'd like to just have a little chat

523

: 00:27:07

about what's going on with your bunnies,

and there's also a quiz on there where you

524

: 00:27:10

can tell me what's happening as well, and

I'll send you a personalized email with my

525

: 00:27:14

take on the situation and how I can help.

526

: 00:27:17

And then I have lots of different

options depending on whether you

527

: 00:27:20

just want a plan to work through.

528

: 00:27:21

We can do a Zoom call where I can give

you a plan, or I do a really high level

529

: 00:27:25

of support as well at the other extreme,

and there's everything in between.

530

: 00:27:28

But I do a really high level of support

where I can walk people through it.

531

: 00:27:32

They get a month's support with me,

four Zoom calls across the month, and

532

: 00:27:35

unlimited WhatsApp support in between.

533

: 00:27:37

So if you're anxious or you've

got a particularly complex bond

534

: 00:27:40

or you just don't know where to

start, it can be really helpful.

535

: 00:27:43

It's the next best thing to

me being beside you, and I'll

536

: 00:27:45

support you through it all.

537

: 00:27:48

Dixie: Thank you so much for

taking the time to speak with

538

: 00:27:51

me today about all of this.

539

: 00:27:54

Fiona: Oh, thank you

very much for having me.

540

: 00:27:55

It's been lovely talking to you, and it's

been interesting for me to hear about

541

: 00:27:58

the parallels with the cats because , I

don't know anything about bonding cats

542

: 00:28:02

Dixie: that's it for today's

episode of Animal Posse.

543

: 00:28:04

If you love what we're doing,

please consider becoming a member.

544

: 00:28:07

Your support directly helps us continue

highlighting the people and stories

545

: 00:28:11

that save lives across the country.

546

: 00:28:13

Just a quick reminder, the views

and opinions expressed by our

547

: 00:28:17

guests are theirs alone and are

provided for entertainment purposes.

548

: 00:28:21

They don't necessarily.

549

: 00:28:22

reflect the official position of the show,

and this information should never replace

550

: 00:28:27

the advice of your own veterinarian.

551

: 00:28:29

Thanks for listening, and

we'll see you next time.