Drew McIntyre Broken Dreams. You hear those words and you immediately think of one of WWE's most iconic themes of all time. Now you get to hear the full story behind the theme with the band behind the music.

Shaman's Harvest vocalist Nathan Hunt hangs out with me, John Kiernan (your resident wrestling entrance theme song composer) to talk all about the behind the scenes of writing Broken Dreams with Shaman's Harvest while they were in the process of recording an album. Nathan also talks about the real story of working with longtime WWE composer Jim Johnston and how Shaman's Harvest almost left working on Broken Dreams. Nathan talks about working with Jim Johnston on various projects like Bray Wyatt and Undertaker's Wrestlemania promo package music, some unreleased entrance themes, his collaborations with WWE's movie studio, and how the band started to finally bring Broken Dreams back into their live set.

Nathan also talks about his reaction to Drew McIntyre using Broken Dreams as his theme and its triumphant return at Clash at the Castle, as well as the time where they almost played Broken Dreams live for Wrestlemania.

Enjoy!

Check out Shaman's Harvest at https://www.shamansharvest.net/ .

-

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Do you like wrestling? Do you like music and stories from the road? Join John Kiernan, wrestling entrance theme song composer, and professional musician of over 10 years for stories and interviews with your favorite wrestlers, rock stars, and personalities!

About the Host:

John Kiernan is a wrestling entrance theme song composer with over 150 themes written for wrestlers in various promotions such as NJPW, WWE, ROH, MLW, and many more. As a professional musician, a veteran in the podcasting space, an avid pro wrestling fan and wrestling personality by way of creating the soundtracks for your favorite wrestlers, John Kiernan forges his latest podcasting venture into diving into stories of music, stories from the road, and wrestling from all walks of life from your (and his) favorites of all time.

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jim has access to the best gear That a person pot like any musician could possibly have

i've been in their studio.

2

It's wall to wall Huge room their a room is huge.

3

It's pretty impressive.

4

But what I got was like this casio keyboard from like 1988

5

Like him just kind of plucking out the melody, ding ding ding ding And I think I got a

tape like a voice record, know, like in the old days when you had a voice recorder It was

6

like a scene.

7

I had to go find A tape machine to play this tape.

8

I think we got one in the mail

9

And it's him singing in a different key than the ding ding ding ding on the Casio.

10

Nathan Hunt of Shamans Harvest.

11

man, this is one I've been wanting to do for a while.

12

Ever since I had a buddy of mine Josiah Williams on who's also many of you may know in the

wrestling ecosystem.

13

He's like, dude, you gotta get Shamans Harvest on.

14

And I'm just so happy to have you on the show today because you've been such a big part of

my life upbringing in the wrestling and music.

15

So thank you for making time for today.

16

I'm happy to be here, man.

17

I'm glad it finally happened.

18

Absolutely.

19

And it's one of these things where it's like when you're growing up with wrestling and

you're a fan of wrestling, you're hearing all this different music going on.

20

And sometimes you know, or sometimes you think like with the big shows theme that it's him

singing it and you're just like, it's not.

21

And then you find out who it is and you're just like, who are these guys?

22

And you hear the whole discography and you're off to the races on that.

23

So Shamans Harvest for those who don't know.

24

Obviously we're going to be talking about Drew McIntyre's theme, the WrestleMania 31 theme

that you or the WrestleMania 31 piece of music that you did for Bray and Undertaker and

25

all that.

26

But for those in attendance and for those watching at home, as we say in wrestling, I'd

love for you to give a little bit of background on your road into music and a little bit

27

about Shamans Harvest as well as if it needs any extra introduction.

28

I'm sure it does.

29

We've been around for since the 90s, late 90s.

30

We were in high school together.

31

And, um you know, well, there's only a couple of us left from high school.

32

Nobody's dead or anything.

33

We just moved on to better things.

34

But, you know, yeah, we just wanted to be.

35

uh But none of us were friends in high school, you know, like we didn't know each other,

we didn't hang out with each other.

36

We just kind of were at a party.

37

And somebody was the douchebag with the acoustic guitar in the corner of the room, you

know?

38

And then just kind of slowly somebody picked up a bass, somebody was beating on a bucket.

39

And next thing you know, we're like, Hey, you want to be in a band?

40

Okay.

41

You know, and we had, you know, as we got hired for the field parties and the things that

you do out in the Midwest and playing the bars before we were could be in them and all

42

that stuff.

43

And then kind of slowly worked regionally and

44

We're about ready to hang up the spurs and we uh wanted to record our little EP and it was

45

songs started gaining traction, the song called Dragonfly.

46

um

47

radio stations around the country started playing it, you know, randomly weren't shooting

for it at all.

48

And it just kind of organically, this is back when you could still something could be

organic, you know, in the radio world.

49

And um people were calling in like, who was that?

50

And next thing you know, we're buying a van and touring the country and

51

And a few years later, we were able to get in the bus and then tour the country and just

keep on keeping on.

52

And we're still doing it today, you know, making records.

53

And we on that record, shine record, that song that did OK song Dragonfly, a feller named

Joe, I know if you want to get into it yet, but a feller named Jim Johnson had heard that

54

song somehow.

55

Somebody sent it to him or something.

56

And this was another whole nother record later.

57

uh He had contacted our people through his people or whatever.

58

And like, hey, I don't know if you're into wrestling or nothing, but uh this guy wants you

to make a song for aggressive.

59

And I was a child of the 80s.

60

I mean, I watched on Saturday morning cartoons back when it was WWF.

61

And junkyard dog and macho, Ultimate Warrior was my dude.

62

The whole thing was.

63

Pretty surreal.

64

It was a full circle moment, but yeah, and we're like, all right, we'll get into it.

65

I was going ask you too, before we jump too far into that too, coming into this, I know

much like many of us, were a child of the 80s and all that, up to that point, had you seen

66

any of, I know that we, not necessarily the current product now, but were you at least

knowledgeable about what was going on when Drew McIntyre had come in?

67

No, no, not at all.

68

Like I had like the last rasslin I watched was um it was like when there was like the the

battles between the wwe and uh Wcw yeah.

69

Yeah, that was the last on in the tvs and turner had the thing with wcw and so that was

like the and like that was probably the last thing I had really like followed, you know

70

and um

71

You know, then life, you know, happens.

72

I didn't have anything cool to like look forward to every week.

73

So, ah yeah, no, I had no idea, you know, who he was.

74

And I think he was relatively new, wasn't he?

75

Wasn't he getting he's getting like a rebrand, right?

76

Yeah, and like back then to kind of paint a little bit of a picture too Drew McIntyre

comes in and for those who are familiar with Drew McIntyre at the time of this recording

77

He looks way different ladies and gentlemen like the guy just looks like again He can hurt

you in every flavor and it's one of these things where when he came in He was more clean

78

shaven.

79

He had the long he still has a long hair, but it was like really polished well back You

know talking about again his trunks are all Scotland all this kind of stuff and it's

80

really cool, but like

81

he was Vince McMahon's chosen one, right?

82

And that's what he always goes back to.

83

Like he was the guy who was chosen by the CEO, the board, whatever you want to call them,

right?

84

But chosen by the man to do the thing.

85

And then he comes back and he's always shown a bit of this vicious cycle.

86

But Broken Dreams to me was a was such an interesting song.

87

And yeah, you're talking about maybe Drew McIntyre.

88

Now that song, it's like, OK, cool.

89

What could you envision for him?

90

Yeah.

91

But back then,

92

He was, back then he was like pretty fresh on the scene, yeah.

93

Yeah, that's now that you've actually just sparked a memory in my head.

94

I do remember I was talking to Jim on the phone before we heard this, you know what he

wanted to do or anything, but he was like, you know, this is going to be huge.

95

This guy's going to be huge.

96

He's got a there's a big plan for this guy, um which I don't know if they ever really went

to fruition there in the early stages, but there's this big plan for him and he's they

97

weren't real happy with.

98

ah You know the whole package that he had going on like his whole his old image and they

want a little darker vibe ah To it and they wanted to reflect that in that song this this

99

rebrand had to like, you know, it was kind of like My understanding is relatively

overnight, you know as those things go and uh Yeah, yeah, and then he sent us a

100

some music we weren't really really stoked on then i had to really really rethink about it

again uh

101

what he sent you.

102

So because I've talked to a couple of people that have worked with Jim and Jim, if you're

watching or listening, we got to have you on the show too one of these days,

103

he'd love to do it, I'm sure.

104

Yeah, he's kind of like, with this kind of show, the guy, right?

105

The one that it's like, let's talk about all these different ones.

106

But, you know, with my buddies in Downstate, they talk about, you know, he would send us

demos and, you know, then we would kind of take our own spin on it and do whatever it is

107

that we did.

108

And the way that they've painted the picture was like, Jim went ahead and gave us a lot of

the leniency.

109

He was like, okay, I know what you guys sound like.

110

now...

111

if I'm recording it on standard or on an acoustic, if you guys are to drop tune it, that's

fine, do your thing.

112

Was that a similar kind of process with Jim or was maybe the demo that he sent you a

little bit different than what ended up coming out?

113

very different.

114

It was I mean first of all

115

jim has access to the best gear That a person pot like any musician could possibly have

i've been in their studio.

116

It's wall to wall Huge room their a room is huge.

117

It's pretty impressive.

118

But what I got was like this casio keyboard from like 1988

119

Like him just kind of plucking out the melody, you know the ding ding ding ding and um and

then And then him singing into like a oh no, if I remember correctly I think I got a tape

120

like a voice record, know, like in the old days when you had a voice recorder It was like

a scene.

121

I had to go find A tape machine to play this tape.

122

I think we got one in the mail

123

And it's him singing in a different key than the ding ding ding ding on the Casio.

124

These are like.

125

Yeah, no, these are so I'm I'm really trying to grasp what this is, and at this time I

have no idea what an interest theme should like the structure of one should go.

126

I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking radio or I'm thinking just like a commercial song

that you would write.

127

You know, here's my verse, chorus verse bridge.

128

Yeah.

129

second too, and we'll come back to that.

130

But envision this guys, Drew McIntyre, and I'm gonna get my timetable wrong a little bit,

131

We're starting to get into this point in 2025 where even the stuff that I do, you guys may

see a computer back here, you may not depending on the view, but like I do everything

132

here.

133

We were just talking before we hopped on that, you we both have home studios and.

134

If I were to collaborate with you or you were to collaborate with me, it's fairly

simplistic now to go on, hit record in whatever software you're using, send it off through

135

email and states, countries.

136

It's so easy to do, right?

137

But 2006, 2009 isn't that far off either.

138

You had whatever it was, right?

139

And Jim Johnson still sends it to you on a tape and he's like, hey, now you got to go find

the antiquated equipment.

140

Yeah.

141

Yeah.

142

So you can imagine where we were at.

143

Like, we were all trying to rethink this, like, man, like,

144

We just had this single on the radio.

145

Is this going to be good for our career to put this what we're because we've yet to put

this song together.

146

You know what mean?

147

All I have is ding, ding, ding, ding.

148

And then him humming in a different key on this tape, you know.

149

And then he sends me a list of the lyrics and whatnot.

150

And.

151

You know.

152

We're like, OK, let's just get in the room and let's just start hammering it out.

153

And this is back in the day when bands would just sit there and just practice all day

long.

154

And it's just what you did.

155

It's no problem.

156

so we're, you know, we start to get to something that we.

157

OK, this is kind of it's got some balls to it, you know, it's we wouldn't be ashamed for

it to be out in the world.

158

And but it's the structure.

159

The structure is different.

160

You know, like what we recorded initially is completely different than what you hear now.

161

It's like there's a it's a structured song, as you would hear.

162

And Jim would call and he would be like, man, I don't know.

163

I don't I don't like this.

164

I don't like this.

165

I don't like this.

166

And we kind of have this back and forth.

167

I wouldn't say argue, but it was it would be a disagreement on what.

168

Good is in this in this.

169

But I have no idea what I'm talking about.

170

So I was just you know Maybe I should just shut the fuck up and and let Jim be Jim I

finally got I had five I'd finally wrapped my head around that and So then then the notes

171

that he started giving were a little more Yeah, yeah I could handle that yeah and then so

yeah, yeah, we got in the studio and

172

Track the song and finally, you know, I don't know if you know I'm

173

If you get the the truth from other bands and talk about jim.

174

He's a hard guy to please, you know, you could you could deliver what you think is like

the like chef's kiss, you know, but um You know, he's gonna he's gonna put his two cents

175

on it and and we eventually I think we got to a place where I remember

176

I'm in the studio and this is like in real time and

177

just to paint the picture of it, is it your studio?

178

it a guy that you're...

179

is one I'm making a record in another studio and while we're there, I'm using that studio

time to go and do this, you know?

180

ah

181

So it's not recording like let's say in gym studio.

182

Cause know some people have gone to, you him and recorded, but you guys are doing it like

with your own guys.

183

Okay, cool.

184

this is and I mean, in the budget wasn't like what they're paying us.

185

Well, I wasn't going to fly everybody up there for all that anyways.

186

So we needed to use.

187

The time we already had booked to try to crowbar this song in and get it out of the way

and get to what we found important at the time, you know, and.

188

Because broken dreams was not important to us.

189

We're just OK, let's make this guy happy and get this off our plate and move what we want

to do.

190

So we're in real time and we send him a thing.

191

You know, we send him our the our take on it, the stem.

192

And he's like, yeah, I don't like this.

193

And so we change it.

194

I send it to him.

195

And I finally start figuring it out.

196

And he would then he would give us another note.

197

He's like, I want you to change this.

198

Sing it this way.

199

and then change the keys to a different vibe, know, on whoever's playing the keys.

200

And I was like, OK, well, I just sent him the exact same thing I sent him before.

201

And he was like, it's perfect.

202

Hahaha!

203

So so I started kind of getting and then we we developed a relationship after that to work

on a few other projects.

204

That's awesome.

205

And you know what?

206

It's funny too, because for me, I started off in bands and in a lot of different projects

too, before I started really hammering in on just, you know, I do other original stuff

207

too, but really hammering in on entrance themes.

208

And I tell people all the time, I'm like, there's a different mentality that you have to

have when you're being, in so many words, when you're a band that's doing a lot of

209

originals and you have a voice and you have all of these things that represent you.

210

When somebody comes to you and says, hey, I want,

211

this.

212

It's like, how do you respect what you guys do and put out something that you guys are

like, hey, this is Shaven's Harvest.

213

But then how do you also take the notes of somebody coming to you and make something that

makes both of you happy?

214

know, because when I do entrance themes on my own, it's very much like, I know I'm

commissioned to work for somebody, right?

215

So I'm a bit of a chameleon when it comes to that.

216

With you guys, it's more like

217

He's coming to you because of your sound, because of you, because of the rest of the band,

and he's saying, hey, I want broken dreams in the style of what you guys do.

218

But then there's that weird, like you said, that weird middle ground of like, it's kind of

what it is, but not yet.

219

And then it gets there too.

220

And by the way too, you're saying you're using studio time.

221

Let me again, paint a timetable picture.

222

You go now, all of a sudden we're collaborating.

223

You end up saying, hey,

224

I don't like this guitar thing.

225

Okay, cool.

226

I go into a program.

227

I remove that one recording.

228

I retrack it and you know, it could take a couple minutes maybe could take an hour or

whatever.

229

It's in my studio.

230

It's in your studio, whatever.

231

This is time that you've booked.

232

Like you said, while you're working on another record and this is completely different

technology at completely different time and not everything always being like recording

233

directly into the computer.

234

You got to remake things and

235

yeah.

236

song number three of your record and now you go, what the hell did we do for this?

237

So it's a completely different timetable.

238

can assume.

239

Yeah.

240

I mean, like you said earlier, it wasn't that long ago, but we've come so far.

241

And as far as, know, how we how we record these record songs, you know, as we're blowing

our budget, you know, on these these studios back in the day, you know, I mean, of course,

242

we still do that.

243

But yeah, we're you know, so, you know, you got to just cram in as much stuff as possible,

you know.

244

Of course, yeah.

245

And you're talking about again, working on this song, which leads to, you know, other

things, but just to stick on this for a second too, know, Drew ended up using this until

246

his exodus from WWE.

247

Then he came back as Drew McIntyre, obviously after his time in the Indies comes back.

248

And ever since he came back, and I can't remember what year he came back, but felt like a

brick shithouse man.

249

Like this guy comes back, it's just unreal.

250

And the first word that I'm all, what's that?

251

Absolute unit.

252

Sorry.

253

Yeah.

254

absolutely.

255

And everybody since day one has been like, Hey, you know what you're missing?

256

You're missing broken dreams.

257

And he's just like, I'm trying, I'm trying.

258

And then all of sudden they do this theme gallantry, which is what you hear with him now

with the, uh, what the bag pipes and whatnot.

259

But then he ends up coming out for one of the pay-per-views.

260

And I'm pretty sure it was Clash at Castle recently when he was at oh Roman Reigns a few

years ago, he comes back out.

261

And the first things you hear that and everyone's just like, what?

262

It just goes mental for it.

263

So it was, how cool was it to see it come back so many years later?

264

I got I did watch it live.

265

actually I was on the road at the time and I mean, I was of course, I was just absolutely

inundated from social media.

266

uh People sending it to me left and right.

267

uh And I don't know.

268

It was pretty, pretty damn cool because I started really hopping on the train to I was

like, you know, in my brain, I'm like because we didn't ever really perform the song live.

269

really and um you know so i just kind of like that was that was the thing we did cool you

know what i mean and um so like you know but to have it years later and people are still

270

talking about it jim uh that was a few years ago but jim said it's like one of the most

downloaded so our most streamed song of wwe history that to me is insane you know like

271

anything like that is pretty crazy especially from where it started and how it wound up

272

And then for him to bring up as pretty epic, I mean, it was one of those one of those

moments where you're like, all right, we did OK.

273

You know what mean?

274

Yeah, and know, Drew still talks about it to this day too.

275

Like you hear in interviews that he loves that theme.

276

And like you said, it's one of the most downloaded in the WWE music catalog.

277

So, you know, it's crazy that we're talking about, there's, you know, I think you're

probably one of the first people that I've had on the show that's talking about like, Hey,

278

there's this real strong back and forth between you and Jim on really getting this.

279

And it turns out where again, sometimes what do they say about creative?

280

Sometimes the friction is what makes the magic kind of thing.

281

Yeah, it's kind of what we're missing now is like, there's a lot of people that, you you

have that leader in the band and he's just like, creates, creates, creates.

282

But I do miss those days where you're like in the room and you're fighting with your

guitar player about the part.

283

And that makes those songs so much cooler, you know, back then.

284

Yeah, totally.

285

And I actually just spoke with Rick from Finger 11 and you know, they just released their

new record and I've been a fan of theirs for a while too, but he talks about, you know,

286

now that they're an independent and they're back in the room kind of working together.

287

They've always been a band too, where I'm just like, you know, the guys are in there

working on the music together like you guys do.

288

And I'm always just like, it's such a different dynamic than just one person.

289

writing the music and being like, all right, well, you happen to play guitar, so do what a

guitarist would do, but take this, right?

290

And then you play drums, you know, yeah, it's such a different thing.

291

Yeah, and both of those things have its place.

292

Different songs have its own thing, but you know when it's missing.

293

Yeah, absolutely.

294

And it also makes you feel like a band.

295

just like, you know, if someone leaves the band, you're like, man, now I feel like that

part is gone.

296

And now we have this person.

297

And it really shows you like who contributed what parts to it.

298

You know, it really makes it feel like a band instead of a project, you know, and it's a

real special thing.

299

And then you talked about after all of this, you and Jim start working on some other

pieces to have the one that I'm familiar with, which we'll talk about.

300

is the song that you did for the Bray Wyatt Undertaker feud.

301

But I'd love for you to elaborate a little bit on some of the things that you had worked

on with WWE.

302

yeah, I did a song called so they're you know, as you know involved in filmmaking as well

uh Part of the payoff because it wasn't in the chick we got for broken dreams but part of

303

the payoff for that song was He was willing to put one of our songs in one of his movies.

304

So we did that and then but after that he Dragonflies for a movie called legendary they

did

305

Okay.

306

And they did another movie, I think it's called No One Lives.

307

I'm pretty sure that's what it was called.

308

not sure.

309

So in it and it's actually I like this song better than Broken Dream.

310

I kind of wanted on a record.

311

This song called Anger and is a song that we did for this.

312

Yeah, this movie.

313

No One Lives is kind of an action movie.

314

um And then and then I did a country song.

315

No, it wasn't really a country song for him, but it was, uh I would say, like very Bruce

Springsteen kind of vibe called Brother.

316

Well, he wanted a Bruce Springsteen thing.

317

I think what I delivered was a country version of what Bruce Springsteen may have thought

about in a dream when he was wasted or something like that.

318

Well, one could say that he's a spiritual successor to some of the country stuff.

319

Like if you feel the vibe and all, yeah.

320

absolutely.

321

He's the boss.

322

And so, yeah, so I did that a song called Brother.

323

That's a weird song.

324

um There's a lot of weird little things, and then he'd send me stuff every once in while

for some entrance themes.

325

And I'd done like three or four along the way, but nothing was ever really quite fitting

or whatever.

326

So then he called me up to come up there.

327

And they wanted to change Broken Dreams a little bit to where they wanted to make it more

like kind of more industrial vibe.

328

It had a little Nine Inch Nails feel about it.

329

So this is like another version of the same song.

330

But he wanted me to re-cut it.

331

And then while I was there...

332

He called me, no sorry, it was a different, so that was, and then I got to see the

studios, cool.

333

I happened to see Vince McMahon, which was pretty wild.

334

ah

335

was that?

336

He was very gracious, super gracious.

337

mean, I expected him to, know, yeah, yeah, OK, whatever.

338

Here's your there's your little buddy, Jim.

339

Go get out, you know, whatever.

340

Get back to work.

341

But no, he wasn't that character at all.

342

was very gracious man.

343

And he gave me I mean, he was busy, crazy busy.

344

He talked to me for good 10 minutes, you know, which is a long time when you're in.

345

This is all live.

346

You know, they're going live, you know, at the time that they're doing all this stuff to.

347

um So then I got called back and I did and that's when the WrestleMania with way bright

and the Undertaker.

348

That's awesome.

349

Yeah.

350

And for those who are familiar with me at all is Bray is one of my favorite wrestlers of

all time.

351

God rest his soul now, unfortunately, but you know, he's somebody who, for me, it was

like, I had gotten out of wrestling for years and then all of a sudden I was in college

352

and a buddy of mine bought WrestleMania 2000 and it was like, who are these guys?

353

Okay, then we're back in, right?

354

Welcome to the show.

355

But when Bray Wyatt came in, I was like,

356

You know, with Undertaker and Kane, they wanted you for so long to basically be like,

these are two dead guys.

357

And you're like, all right, they're not.

358

But with Bray Wyatt, I was just like, I'm such a horror fan and a horror fanatic.

359

And I'm like, at the degree of what you can do, right?

360

What's one of the things in wrestling that you could create a horror gimmick of that's

kind of based in reality?

361

A cult.

362

Oh, what about some guy who's just.

363

from the backwoods and has this whole crazy story and sells it like Bray does with all

these guys and you're just like, man, okay.

364

Then he does it in such, yeah.

365

100%.

366

Yeah, unbelievably so.

367

And you know, he did things after that, obviously with The Fiend and he always lives to me

as one of my favorites, but to me, nothing beats that cult leader Bray Wyatt and going

368

into that Undertaker thing, it was just.

369

Undertaker wasn't around the whole time.

370

Undertaker was like, MIA, he showed up at WrestleMania, he beat Bray, all that stuff is

fine.

371

But Bray had to basically carry that feud on his own with all these promos and things.

372

And he did, and he did, because he's Bray.

373

But again, to have this awesome song complement it and then there was darkness.

374

So tell us a little bit about that and some of the work that happened with Jim too,

because that one's a bit different, obviously, than Broken Dreams.

375

Yeah.

376

um Yeah, it was weird though.

377

uh When I saw the final piece, I see like what I'm seeing or especially when I'm writing

and Jim and I are like we're bouncing ideas back and forth the whole time and

378

So we are in this creative process as it's going down, as we're laying the takes down.

379

And he's like explaining to me, he's like, OK, imagine this.

380

he's explaining Bray to me.

381

Because I had no idea at this time what's going on.

382

And but I knew the Undertaker.

383

I was just like, the fact that I could be involved in anything that he did from from the

old days.

384

um So he's explaining this to me and I'm kind of seeing it and what I saw, what the final

piece was way cooler than what I saw, but it was not what I imagined.

385

So like there's a lot of these.

386

He's explaining this backwoods the swampy kind of dude to me.

387

OK.

388

And so I'm like kind of like.

389

There's these ad-libs that are in that uh thing that's these like little bluesy runs like

that you would imagine.

390

So I'm trying to imagine like this, I don't know, like a Louisiana kind of thing.

391

You know what mean?

392

So I'm throwing a lot of these little bluesy looks in there.

393

And, you know, I don't it to be in that.

394

I mean, I I love being in the studio.

395

It's my favorite aspect of this.

396

It's not shows are great.

397

I like to play a show.

398

You know, it's cool.

399

But I love the creation of the creative process.

400

mean, to me, that is the reason the whole reason I'm we're here.

401

uh So like just to be in that world and to be in and Jim's world and, you know, he's not

he's no longer with.

402

the WWE and they moved, but he was with them for a long, I think he was the, he was the

very first music director when the WWF first started.

403

just the only guy that uh Jim McMahon knew that had an instrument, and he could kind of

play a keyboard.

404

That is why he got the gig.

405

He got the gig because he owned a keyboard.

406

That's it.

407

That's it.

408

That's as far.

409

then Jim was like, great, perfect.

410

Move on.

411

You know what mean?

412

So like and then he sold it, though, like he carried that job for 40 years or whatever,

whatever, however long it's been.

413

Yeah.

414

And you know, it's funny though, you bring that up and with Jim, it's always well

documented that Jim wasn't the biggest wrestling fan in general.

415

He was always like a film guy.

416

Yeah.

417

And so he made that apparent to you also.

418

Absolutely.

419

Like he was like the whole time.

420

He's like, this is all beneath us.

421

We know this, but like it's pretty cool to man.

422

Come on, Why you got all this stuff?

423

I love that.

424

I love the fact that there's this legendary composer who's been doing this for like 30, 40

years.

425

He's written some of the most amazing entrance themes.

426

He's worked with amazing people such as yourself.

427

And he's just like, yeah, I mean, this is, there's what we do.

428

Yeah, it's cool.

429

That being said, I did go to WWE headquarters recently.

430

A buddy of mine does some of the audio engineering over there.

431

And again, first off, amazing studio.

432

It looks awesome.

433

It looks great.

434

Super professional, as you know.

435

And,

436

Jim not being there anymore.

437

There were people that obviously got the chance to work in the time that he was there.

438

And they were like, dude, Jim would just spend like 20 hours in the room and just do

nothing but compose.

439

And I'm sitting there just like, you know, I I've done that too, probably a decent amount

of hours, but they're just like, yeah, we'd come in, we'd leave and he would still be

440

there.

441

Like it just so happens that he had all of his stuff here and he would just do it

beginning to end.

442

And that was it.

443

So

444

yeah, he's a story of a guy who regardless of how he saw wrestling ah

445

I mean, he's kind of tortured artist, you know, and that's, mean, he's a very happy dude.

446

He's not, I'm not saying he's Kurt Cobain by any means, but what I'm saying is like, you

know, he would just, you know, obsess about his craft, you know?

447

And the fact that he wasn't, or he claimed to not be that into, I mean, look, at one time,

BMI's a...

448

You know as you know, but just for everybody else BMI they collect royalties.

449

Okay?

450

One of the three major companies that collect royalties in the United States He was the

top Royalty earner at BMI they had lady.

451

This is when Lady Gaga was huge.

452

Yeah, my house out

453

Royaltying Lady Gaga, man.

454

Just because I mean, you think about it Monday night.

455

mean, I think that the Raw at one point was there's more people watch Raw than the Super

Bowl.

456

You know what mean?

457

And maybe that still exists.

458

But so, you know, that all translates to royalty.

459

So, you know, I he doesn't hate wrestling too much.

460

Yeah.

461

Like to some degree, yeah.

462

But you know what?

463

I've always thought about that too.

464

And again, I got the opportunity to speak with him briefly on LinkedIn, which I added him

on LinkedIn a couple years ago when I started doing entrance themes.

465

Because before that, even up to now, I still do some media, like short films, things like

that.

466

And I was like, what kind of advice do you have for a schlep like me, right?

467

And he was just like, you know, think about Undertaker and think about Stone Cold and all

these guys, right?

468

And I asked him, I go, but, maybe it was a little bit weird of me to ask, but you'll kind

of understand where I'm coming from.

469

Yeah, but like the Undertaker is a dead guy.

470

You know, it's kind of not easy, but you can understand what you can do and not do, right?

471

So how do you, how do you write for somebody that's just like a wrestler, which a lot of

the people on the roster are, right?

472

Like, how do you do that?

473

And I remember, I felt like it was a question that he hadn't really been asked because

every interview you see is Undertaker, Stone Cold, boom, Shawn Michaels, boom, give him my

474

money, let's go home.

475

Right?

476

But I was like, but how do you write for like a Daniel Bryan?

477

How do you write for a Steve Blackman?

478

Like Stone Cold even, like his theme is amazing.

479

But how do you write for a Stone Cold?

480

He just, he's a guy who wears black trunks, he kicks your ass and he goes home.

481

Like, how do you write for that?

482

And he's just like, well, you know, he actually said something interesting.

483

He goes,

484

Some of the themes that I wrote at the time didn't make sense probably at the time that I

wrote them.

485

But over time, when you heard them and you saw how they melded with the character, every

character has a story and you have to look at them like a movie.

486

And when you do that, it makes the theme that you write have so much sense.

487

And I think a lot of people now write music and entrance themes that are like really good

songs, but maybe aren't always great entrance themes, you know, but...

488

Whereas with him, he's like, what's gonna make the best entrance scene that you know

exactly who this is gonna be?

489

And again, he knows how to pick talent, you know, he knows how to bring people on again,

like you guys that just crush it with everything you did.

490

Yeah, well I also some of those guys back then You know like, you know seven dust, know

There's lots of bands that had their songs too They'd be like and I think I feel like that

491

might be in a play time when jim is like I I don't have a feeling for this guy yet You

know this character yet.

492

I'm gonna bring in, you know

493

Seven Dust for that, you know, just to use utilize that and do a uh you know, just use one

of their songs and then so that fills those blanks.

494

Yeah, I don't.

495

It's a great question that you asked them because I mean, yeah, how do you just I think

sometimes the wrestler becomes the character with the song, which I think it sounds like

496

what he was kind of getting at.

497

All of a sudden, it just kind of made sense, you know.

498

Yeah, I agree with that.

499

yeah, go ahead.

500

organization is great at just molding and carving away and chipping away at the sculpture

to get the entire package there, you know.

501

Yeah, I agree with that.

502

And I know that you mentioned in passing that you had worked on some other themes too.

503

Do you remember if they were for specific people and it was just like, okay, cool, like we

may go in a different direction?

504

Okay.

505

it was a lot of that.

506

And I think it was like they were doing that next program.

507

I don't know if they did it next year.

508

So it was like these wrestlers that might be coming up that they had this plan for.

509

um I don't.

510

oh

511

come through the how the hallowed halls on this way.

512

Well at one point well it was already actually he was uh, he was already in the regular

program, uh, shameless was one one dude That because they were talking about rebranding

513

shameless and this was you know, it's around the drew mcintyre time too.

514

Really?

515

It was a couple years maybe after one two years after um and it

516

I think it just the song didn't it didn't fit.

517

You know what mean?

518

There was no lightning in a bottle like with broken dreams.

519

um But I can't remember some of that.

520

I mean, it was just so like it was just pretty rapid fire, you know, because again, Jim

was not great at giving any initial ah direction whatsoever.

521

He's just like.

522

oh

523

You know, here's this Casio keyboard.

524

Here's a really rough melody.

525

And then you guys make it.

526

And then I'm to get that royalty.

527

Yeah.

528

uh Yeah.

529

Yeah.

530

Yeah.

531

Yeah, I was salty about that for a while until I saw that first.

532

It was like one of the first Monday Night Raw's that I was able to actually sit down and

watch and had, you know, broken dreams by Shaman's Harvest.

533

And then I got I had a PlayStation and my girlfriend at the time brought bought me the,

you know, one of the video games that then you could pick your own theme song.

534

So everybody's theme song was broken dreams on my console.

535

Hulk Hogan, broken dreams.

536

Randy Savage, broken dreams.

537

I love that.

538

And now with a lot of the wrestlers that I've worked with over time and a lot of these,

these independents and anyone, I get to work directly with the talent, right?

539

I know you're working through gym.

540

Was there ever a time where you had gotten to meet Drew either before the theme was

written or after the theme was written?

541

to get his feedback about, what did he think about it?

542

Or has this been two ships passing in the sea over the years?

543

that a lot of that.

544

uh I mean we've talked online, you know, like, you know We found ourselves on someone

else's page talking about talks about We've talked a little bit back and forth.

545

We've messaged each other back and forth um And then at one point we were supposed to play

the WrestleMania one of one of the WrestleMania's Maybe

546

Maybe a year or two, once Broken Dreams started really taking off for them.

547

We were supposed to go sit ringside, you know, do on one through that season.

548

And then, know, hey, showman's harvest is here, you know, whatever.

549

And then go do do do perform at WrestleMania.

550

It was spun this way to us anyway.

551

uh And then we actually we did get the offer and we were touring and we couldn't cancel

the tour to go do this.

552

And to this day, I kind of regret not missing a few shows to go do that.

553

But uh and then we just played.

554

We did a tour in the UK, Ireland and Scotland.

555

and um he was there at the time and but he was doing a some sort of circuit press circuit

maybe and so he was in a different place than we were the entire time so we kept trying to

556

connect but no two ships passing in the night

557

That's crazy too.

558

And it's been years, know?

559

Like that's what I think is so surprising about it is, you know, you're not talking about,

okay, cool.

560

It's been like a year or two.

561

You're talking about that there's been almost 10, 15 years of this song being out in the

ecosystem.

562

And it's just two ships passing in the sea.

563

But you know what?

564

Again, two professionals doing their professional thing.

565

So it maybe isn't that crazy.

566

uh Did you get to meet any of the NXT guys or Bray or Undertaker when you did?

567

any of the additional things.

568

I if I did not have to fly I had to again had to fly out and then I was I had to be in the

studio to do a feature on somebody else's that never saw the light of day thing and so

569

again I wish I would have stayed because because I was supposed to meet the undertaker and

that was my hero like there was a period of time like I would dress like the undertaker

570

and you know I'd go in and scare my brothers in the middle of the night you know because

it was a prick of an older brother and

571

And you know, I did do that whole thing.

572

uh so, yeah, no, uh again, and I met a, I couldn't even tell you who I met because it was

such a whirlwind.

573

You're up there, you got to do the song and you're in the hallway, you know, and you meet

a couple of people and a couple of wrestlers.

574

And you could tell that, though, whoever they were, they were definitely up and coming

because they were very eager and happy to be there.

575

Yeah.

576

of stuff.

577

Yeah.

578

And it's interesting at the beginning of the conversation, you know, we touched on it kind

of briefly, but I did recently see that this year you guys ended up whipping out broken

579

dreams live at a show.

580

I remember that you were on stage and you're just like, we tried it once, didn't go so

well.

581

So we're gonna try it again.

582

Hope it goes better.

583

And it crushed.

584

But again, I assume that that would just be in the set for like,

585

years but you guys crushed it on that live one so I loved it you guys could do it

586

Thanks, man.

587

We had a uh lawyer at the time that was like, I'm not sure you can.

588

So for many years we just didn't even do it.

589

to the dismay of many people that had found us through the WWE and only liked that song,

they'd come to the show and they'd be really bummed that we didn't uh perform that song.

590

Well, that serves them right.

591

um Yeah, so yeah, pulled it.

592

Obviously we pulled it off.

593

We pulled it out in Scotland and...

594

uh

595

We did a couple on that run, the UK run that we just did.

596

But yeah, that's really the first time that we dusted her off and drug her out.

597

I love it.

598

But anyone that's listened to Red Hands Black Deeds, like listen, I'm going to say, if you

know Shamans Harvest and you like this, go listen to that record, go listen to any of the

599

records.

600

But at the same time, if somebody has heard you from WWE and says, all right, cool,

Shamans Harvest, what's next?

601

What song or what records for you would you be like, you got to check out this one?

602

Obviously all of them, but like right from there, what would you say is something that

someone could check out?

603

if you discovered us uh on that, would suggest the song, the record that we were making at

the time we did Broken Dreams, uh which was a record called Smokin' Hearts and Broken

604

Guns.

605

ah And then, you know, and then we moved on into a different, like each record is so

different from the other one.

606

I'm not really interested in making.

607

to say, don't want to do part two.

608

you know, this keeps it interesting for us.

609

So, yeah, like Red Hands Black Deeds is a very analog record for us.

610

Like, you know, the board was analog, all the gear was analog.

611

Everything was out of the box.

612

And because we went down that thing, it was a very kind of more of a cerebral record.

613

And then, you know, I would say and then our newest record, Revelator is more of a

614

So that's more old school.

615

News records probably a little more like modern, about as modern as we get anyway, a

modern rock kind of vibe that we are the producers, a very modern guy, guy named Carl

616

O'Dell who does.

617

ah Yeah, You know.

618

So I've never met him, but a theme that I did for, or with It Lives It Breathes, we did,

my God, was it Brian Myers?

619

Yeah, we did Brian Myers entrance theme a while ago.

620

He's in TNA, and he was the engineer on the back end of that, so I recorded my parts from

my studio, but you bring up Kyle, and I'm like, shit, yeah.

621

Yup, he's.

622

He's so good though.

623

Like, you know, you record stuff in your home studio and you're like, I wonder how it's

going to sound.

624

And then you give it to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

625

And you're like, it sounds great.

626

Why didn't I do anything?

627

exactly.

628

Man, he polished the shit out of it.

629

It sounds great.

630

Yeah.

631

Yeah, I love that.

632

Cool.

633

So I usually ask people two questions.

634

You've been so awesome with hanging out with us today.

635

So I will just leave you with the last one here, my friend, the last one that I ask

everybody who's on the show.

636

If you had to create a playlist with three songs that represent you as a person, what

would those three songs be?

637

And yes, you can use one of your songs as well.

638

If that fits the question here.

639

Sure.

640

Well, I'm like many music musicians can't stand to listen to their own music.

641

ah Every time my wife turns it on, I'm like, no.

642

ah You know, I would go um I would say Jimi Hendrix and his experience when he did Machine

Gun for me, that is a like a it's this core memory thing for me.

643

um You know, I'm going to get hate for it, but.

644

Pearl Jam Black, like I can just as a a 90s kid, I just remember like being in my room and

that was a song that was just on repeat, you know, screaming at the top of my lungs and

645

and comfortably numb.

646

You can see like this this thing.

647

It's always these very dramatic, you know, these very dramatic songs.

648

And I just I just love, you know, that's that's what it's kind of a shame that that's

what's

649

So hard with interest music because I want to like I want to have a bit of a journey, you

know From the beginning of the song to the end.

650

I want it to take me to a different place And that's that that's what I couldn't get my

head around on interest.

651

We've we figured it out though

652

Yeah, the entrance theme stuff is interesting because like, you know, there are people

that make full songs and do a bit of a journey, but at the same time, it's like a lot of

653

the entrance themes are you've got that first 30 seconds and even then you've got like

that first 10 seconds and then that's it.

654

man.

655

You just need the bell.

656

You know, which, by the way, is copyrighted.

657

You cannot use that bell on anything.

658

Yeah.

659

Yeah.

660

Yeah.

661

Jim Johnson gets a P every time that bell rings, he gets a little to.

662

That's crazy.

663

That's crazy, man.

664

I know, like I saw a video of him in the studio where he was like, I did that with like a

bass.

665

I played the gong, but then I played the bass also.

666

But the fact that he owns that specific one, that's crazy.

667

yeah, well, smart man.

668

I love also that you have such this conversation about kind of the totality of what you

guys, of what you've done with Shamans Harvest, with what you've done with Jim, because it

669

just seems like, again, if you're looking for somebody in a band to collaborate with and

just have this time, you're the person.

670

And it just seems like you and him had such a good relationship over time, too, and such a

communication that it's really great insight to seeing both your process and his process,

671

too.

672

yeah, I hope he's doing well.

673

I haven't talked to him in a few years because, you know, life and stuff, but I hope he's

doing great.

674

And I'm sure he is.

675

I'm sure he's he's he's loving his life now.

676

This is see this is the point though where you drop him a text.

677

You're like, yo, dude, just having to talk about you.

678

He's talking about you brother.

679

send them.

680

I'll send them.

681

You send me.

682

Send me a clip.

683

I'm going to send it to.

684

That's awesome.

685

uh I'm excited.

686

Well, dude, thank you so much for having a conversation with us today.

687

When people want to go ahead and find you and check out all your music, where's the best

place to check them out?

688

just find it on social media, I like uh Apple Music, big fan of Apple Music.

689

uh And, you know, we're on all the things, though, if you want to use Spotify or whatever

you want to use, we're there.

690

all the places.

691

Well, Nathan, thank you so much for making the time to hang out with us today.

692

Alright buddy, take care.