Have you ever wondered how to build a business that truly works for your unique ADHD traits? 

What if embracing your neurodiversity could unlock new opportunities for success? 

🔗 Read / Listen more: https://smartadhd.me/31 

In this episode of The Smart ADHD Podcast, we’re diving into the world of unmasking ADHD and dyslexia. I’m joined by the brilliant Mike Cole, an ICF-accredited coach and qualified accountant, who shares invaluable insights from his own journey.

🎙️ In this episode: 

• 00:00 Introduction and Personal Struggles 
• 00:38 Welcome to the Smart ADHD Podcast 
• 00:48 Meet Mike Cole: Journey from Corporate to Coaching 
• 01:06 Unmasking ADHD and Dyslexia 
• 03:33 The Concept of Masking 
• 09:13 Navigating Corporate Life with Dyslexia 
• 13:21 Embracing Strengths and Overcoming Weaknesses 
• 18:22 Practical Advice for Neurodivergent Individuals 
• 28:14 Conclusion and Next Steps 

🕺More about Mike Cole

Mike is an ICF-accredited coach and qualified accountant with a wealth of business experience from leading multinational teams in £multi-billion corporates to supporting solopreneurs to create profitable businesses. 

Connect with Mike: 

• Website: https://milico.uk 
• Instagram: https://instagram.com/thismikecole 
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thrivewithyourbusiness (yet to launch) 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thismikecole/ 

What’s your biggest challenge in navigating ADHD as a smart creative? Share your thoughts in the comments section below, and don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review! 

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🎤 About the Smart ADHD Podcast 

The Smart ADHD Podcast is for smart creatives, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are navigating life with ADHD. We celebrate unique brilliance, whether we're intelligent, exceptionally talented, or both. Ian Anderson Gray interviews experts to uncover the real story of ADHD for smart creatives, busting myths and discovering effective strategies to improve our lives, unleash our creativity, and grow. 

🔗 Find out more at https://smartadhd.me/31

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🕺More about Ian Anderson Gray

Ian is the host of the Smart ADHD Podcast and a live-streaming video coach and consultant. He helps business owners and entrepreneurs broadcast live confidently, communicate better, and set up the right gear and tools. Ian runs Seriously Social, a business aimed at helping others be more productive and level up their impact online. He's also a professional singer, web developer, and an international speaker. Ian lives near Manchester in the UK with his family. 

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🤗 Connect with Ian: 

• Website: https://iag.me/ 
• X/Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/iagdotme 
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ianandersongray 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianandersongray/ 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iagdotme 
• Threads: https://threads.net/@ianandersongray  

Copyright 2025 Ian Anderson Gray

Mike: 00:00:00

To write fast enough to capture the things people were saying I

Mike: 00:00:03

couldn't read it if I left gaps thinking I'll fill that in when I

Mike: 00:00:06

write it up my memory wasn't there and I was like Oh dear now what do I do?

Mike: 00:00:10

Just started a new company really like my boss this is not a good moment

Mike: 00:00:14

Every single one of my weaknesses that comes from dyslexia is directly linked

Mike: 00:00:19

to a strength and a strength which has given me a very successful career in

Mike: 00:00:24

corporate finance and a strength that continues to make me a very good coach

Mike: 00:00:28

I really think we need to stop looking at what I can't do and start looking

Mike: 00:00:32

at what I can do how am I great?

Mike: 00:00:35

Where am I amazing?

Mike: 00:00:36

And how do I lean into that?

Ian: 00:00:38

Hello, and welcome back to the smart ADHD podcast.

Ian: 00:00:41

Today, it's all about the challenges and opportunities of building a business

Ian: 00:00:45

that aligns with your unique ADHD brain.

Ian: 00:00:48

And I'm excited to welcome Mike Cole to the show.

Ian: 00:00:51

He's an ICF accredited coach and qualified accountant who has navigated

Ian: 00:00:56

a journey from leading multinational teams in multi billion pound corporates

Ian: 00:01:01

to empowering solopreneurs to build profitable, sustainable businesses.

Ian: 00:01:06

In this episode, we're talking about unmasking and how you can

Ian: 00:01:08

build a business that works for you.

Ian: 00:01:11

Mike shares his experience with dyslexia and working with ADHD clients.

Ian: 00:01:15

Now it was such a fun conversation.

Ian: 00:01:17

So interesting.

Ian: 00:01:18

Mike was amazing.

Ian: 00:01:19

And so let's get on with it right now.

Ian: 00:01:28

Hello, I'm Ian Anderson Gray, and this is the smart ADHD podcast.

Ian: 00:01:36

Now if you're a smart, creative entrepreneur or business owner

Ian: 00:01:39

navigating your life with ADHD, This is the podcast for you.

Ian: 00:01:44

Now, I'm no ADHD expert, but I'm eager to share my story on what I've learned

Ian: 00:01:48

by talking with experts, as well as digging into the personal ADHD stories of

Ian: 00:01:53

successful creatives and entrepreneurs.

Ian: 00:01:59

I was diagnosed at age 46, and it answered so many questions in my life.

Ian: 00:02:06

But of course, that was in many ways, only the start of my journey.

Ian: 00:02:10

So let's learn together.

Ian: 00:02:12

Smart stories, smart strategies, smart ADHD.

Ian: 00:02:26

Hi Mike, welcome to Smart ADHD.

Ian: 00:02:29

It's great to see you.

Ian: 00:02:30

How are you doing today?

Mike: 00:02:31

Really well, thank you.

Mike: 00:02:32

I'm very excited to be here.

Mike: 00:02:33

Thanks for having me on.

Ian: 00:02:34

Oh, thanks, Mike.

Ian: 00:02:34

We've been chatting, to ing and fro ing on LinkedIn Messenger, I knew I

Ian: 00:02:38

wanted to have you on the show because we've had a few conversations but

Ian: 00:02:42

it's taken a little bit of a while, just because of many things, but we

Ian: 00:02:45

met I think it was earlier this year.

Ian: 00:02:48

We might have met that.

Ian: 00:02:49

I can't remember.

Ian: 00:02:50

This is my ADHD brain.

Ian: 00:02:51

The LinkedIn Live conference.

Ian: 00:02:53

Am I right there or have I got that wrong?

Ian: 00:02:55

Maybe it was something else.

Mike: 00:02:56

So is that Uplift Live?

Mike: 00:02:57

Uplift Live?

Ian: 00:02:58

What did I say?

Mike: 00:02:59

LinkedIn Live?

Ian: 00:03:00

Uplift

Mike: 00:03:01

close.

Mike: 00:03:01

Uplift

Ian: 00:03:02

it.

Ian: 00:03:02

I almost got there.

Mike: 00:03:03

And then at TubeFest, we were at TubeFest together as well, where you gave

Mike: 00:03:07

an excellent talk, really enjoyed that.

Ian: 00:03:09

Yeah, that was fun.

Ian: 00:03:10

That was fun.

Mike: 00:03:10

And it now feels like I've been stalking you, but we bumped into each

Mike: 00:03:13

other in Newcastle as well at an event.

Mike: 00:03:14

So yeah, a number of moments, almost touch points through the

Mike: 00:03:18

year that maybe have led to this.

Mike: 00:03:20

So that's exciting.

Ian: 00:03:21

that's right.

Ian: 00:03:21

Yeah, that was atomic on in Newcastle.

Ian: 00:03:23

So yeah, we've bumped into each other.

Ian: 00:03:26

I think this shows the importance of real life human to human meetings and

Ian: 00:03:32

communities and all that kind of stuff.

Ian: 00:03:33

I think it's so Important, but I wanted to get you onto the

Ian: 00:03:36

show to talk about unmasking particularly unmasking your ADHD.

Ian: 00:03:40

Now, I'm right in saying you don't have ADHD but you are a coach and you work

Ian: 00:03:46

with many people, some of which have ADHD.

Ian: 00:03:50

Just before we, we dig into this, what is it?

Ian: 00:03:52

What is your background in into looking at this aspect of things I'm

Ian: 00:03:58

asking because I know you used to work in corporate and you have dyslexia.

Ian: 00:04:02

So what's your history here?

Mike: 00:04:05

You're right, as far as I'm aware, I don't have ADHD, and yet, it's going

Mike: 00:04:09

to be possible that within the traits that show dyslexia and maybe other

Mike: 00:04:14

elements in my life, maybe there's elements that I don't know, but as

Mike: 00:04:17

far as I'm aware, I don't have ADHD.

Mike: 00:04:19

I do have a confirmed ADHD diagnosis within my immediate family, and I'm also

Mike: 00:04:24

aware that there is, or I believe, I'm led to believe there is a genetic link.

Mike: 00:04:28

If it's in one of your children, I guess you're always questioning,

Mike: 00:04:31

where's that come from?

Mike: 00:04:32

Could it be my side?

Mike: 00:04:33

Yeah, potentially, don't know.

Mike: 00:04:35

My background, or my interest in neurodiversity, neurodivergence,

Mike: 00:04:39

particularly comes from dyslexia.

Mike: 00:04:40

And I was luckily to be diagnosed Luckily enough diagnosed back in the 90s when

Mike: 00:04:45

I was at school in a time when dyslexia wasn't really known about or talked about.

Mike: 00:04:50

And I was lucky to be picked up because I was picked up because of my sibling who.

Mike: 00:04:55

Was more obviously or more evidently dyslexic and just from

Mike: 00:04:59

the way that the studies came out.

Mike: 00:05:01

And so I was put forward to be, I don't know, studied, reviewed,

Mike: 00:05:06

tested and they came back and said, yeah, here you go, Mike.

Mike: 00:05:08

And at the time it was here's some extra time, Good for you.

Mike: 00:05:12

Off you go.

Mike: 00:05:12

And I think it's really taken a lot longer to understand how that affects

Mike: 00:05:17

me differently from other people.

Mike: 00:05:19

And so when it comes to unmasking the idea of hiding that dyslexia

Mike: 00:05:23

through my working life and.

Mike: 00:05:25

The reasons why the benefits of masking and then ultimately The reasons

Mike: 00:05:30

to consider unmasking that and the benefits to that's where my interest

Mike: 00:05:33

has really been And I think a lot of that journey is as relevant for

Mike: 00:05:37

someone with adhd or indeed autism or a different form of neurodivergence as

Mike: 00:05:41

well, so That concept i'm hoping will be really relevant for the audience.

Ian: 00:05:45

Yeah, definitely.

Ian: 00:05:46

And it's interesting.

Ian: 00:05:47

We were talking just before we started recording about This wonderful word,

Ian: 00:05:51

this very hopeful word, comorbidities.

Ian: 00:05:53

I'm joking here.

Ian: 00:05:54

But people with ADHD and in fact, it could be autism or dyslexia.

Ian: 00:05:58

It's usually not just one of these things.

Ian: 00:06:01

It's usually a concoction.

Ian: 00:06:03

So it could be ADHD and dyslexia.

Ian: 00:06:06

So the conversation we're gonna have today is going to be relevant in

Ian: 00:06:09

many different ways, but particularly when it comes to unmasking.

Ian: 00:06:12

For me, I think it's been, there's, I don't know whether there's an element of

Ian: 00:06:16

shame in there in terms of hiding my ADHD.

Ian: 00:06:20

Certainly there's, there are stigmas, there's misconceptions as to what

Ian: 00:06:23

other people think about that.

Ian: 00:06:25

But for you, what was your experience?

Ian: 00:06:27

Because as you said you've known for a while since the 90s that you're dyslexic,

Ian: 00:06:32

but you haven't, in a sence embrace that you haven't talked about that openly.

Ian: 00:06:37

You didn't talk about that in your work.

Ian: 00:06:38

So what's been that transition of unmasking and what does

Ian: 00:06:43

that unmasking mean for you?

Mike: 00:06:45

Yeah, so so i'm asking to me I guess what is masking I might find it easier

Mike: 00:06:50

to explain it from that perspective and please Every listener, please be kind to

Mike: 00:06:54

me because one of the things about being dyslexic is use of words and choosing

Mike: 00:06:58

which word and, forming that structure can sometimes be slightly more challenging.

Mike: 00:07:03

Masking meant not letting anyone know.

Mike: 00:07:05

And the reason that was so important was not showing weakness.

Mike: 00:07:09

And I personally think that's a lot about judgment.

Mike: 00:07:11

It's other people judging us and we judging ourselves.

Mike: 00:07:15

I think from a young age, we're encouraged to fit in.

Mike: 00:07:17

We're all safe.

Mike: 00:07:18

I don't know if we're encouraged, but we're quite good at pointing out where

Mike: 00:07:21

someone's different to us and picking on them as a result, whether that's at school

Mike: 00:07:24

or indeed through a corporate environment.

Mike: 00:07:27

And so unmasking to me is stopping needing to have the mask

Mike: 00:07:32

to pretend you are someone or something different to yourself.

Mike: 00:07:35

I think that is different from I think you can cause offense and harm under the

Mike: 00:07:41

justification of that's just how I am.

Mike: 00:07:43

And I don't think that's okay.

Mike: 00:07:45

Does that make sense?

Mike: 00:07:46

I think there's a bit about how we're more authentically us, and it's an overused

Mike: 00:07:49

word, but I think it's the right word.

Mike: 00:07:50

Without being an idiot, or being mean, or being horrible to others.

Mike: 00:07:55

It's releasing the best bits of us, rather than trampling down someone else.

Mike: 00:07:59

Does that make sense?

Ian: 00:08:00

that makes sense.

Ian: 00:08:01

And that's a really nuanced answer that because it's not just as simple as, Here

Ian: 00:08:06

I am, warts and all, and I'm sorry if I'm not sorry because I just shouted at you,

Ian: 00:08:11

that's just the way I am, or whatever, so it's, it is nuanced, isn't it?

Mike: 00:08:17

It is, absolutely.

Mike: 00:08:18

And what works really well, say for you Ian, might not work well

Mike: 00:08:21

for me, and if we're in an office environment that says we need to

Mike: 00:08:25

fit both of you, how do you do that?

Mike: 00:08:27

And actually, there are circumstances, I did some consulting with a company

Mike: 00:08:32

last year, and they had, with their finance team, they play the radio.

Mike: 00:08:35

And for some people, going into that office and hearing the radio

Mike: 00:08:38

play is going to be Impossible for them to work and study.

Mike: 00:08:42

They'll want the quiet.

Mike: 00:08:43

For others, it really helps them and lifts them.

Mike: 00:08:46

What do you do?

Mike: 00:08:47

You can't appease both sets of people.

Mike: 00:08:49

And I think that's where the nuanced discussion, if you don't recognize

Mike: 00:08:54

it's a nuanced discussion, you've got to Rapidly get into trouble same with

Mike: 00:08:57

office temperature same with lighting in the office whether someone wants

Mike: 00:09:01

blinds closed or not There's so many elements that We quickly get into a form

Mike: 00:09:06

of conflict that can be hard to resolve.

Ian: 00:09:09

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Ian: 00:09:10

So you, as I said you were in the 1990s.

Ian: 00:09:13

You had the test, you find out you're dyslexic, you were working in a

Ian: 00:09:17

corporate environment, you are now not.

Ian: 00:09:20

What was that kind of transition and how did the, how did you get

Ian: 00:09:23

to the point where you were a lot more open about being dyslexic?

Mike: 00:09:27

Yeah, so for the last five years i've been Doing this coaching angle,

Mike: 00:09:31

having left the corporate environment and through that coaching journey, as

Mike: 00:09:35

I qualified and gained more experience, there's a lot of self reflection, and

Mike: 00:09:39

I think a lot of it became more and more apparent how throughout my time

Mike: 00:09:43

in corporate, I lent into what makes me special and found ways around my

Mike: 00:09:48

weaknesses, my challenges, and I'd done that subconsciously, or I'd done that,

Mike: 00:09:52

at least I'd done that unknowingly.

Mike: 00:09:54

But it had really benefited me.

Mike: 00:09:56

But if I, so if I take us on a slight journey on that the way my

Mike: 00:09:59

dyslexia shows up is three things.

Mike: 00:10:02

And about two, three years ago, when I started talking more openly about having

Mike: 00:10:05

dyslexia, I talked about two of them and I kept the third one very quiet.

Mike: 00:10:08

I'm about to explain why.

Mike: 00:10:10

So my memory isn't very good.

Mike: 00:10:11

That's why I've been taking some notes as we're going and I

Mike: 00:10:14

will keep writing things down.

Mike: 00:10:15

That's a perfectly valid way of coming around the memory problem.

Mike: 00:10:19

My handwriting is actually really slow, which is why ordinarily I'd be typing.

Mike: 00:10:24

For the purposes of this, we don't want keyboard noises but

Mike: 00:10:26

the odd word jotted down is fine.

Mike: 00:10:28

But in my coaching, I take notes on a computer, I write them as I go.

Mike: 00:10:32

I just find that the most efficient way and it's a really effective way.

Mike: 00:10:35

But the third is processing speed.

Mike: 00:10:37

And the thing about processing speed, what it really means is it takes a

Mike: 00:10:41

bit of time to consider something if you've not considered it before.

Mike: 00:10:45

And the best.

Mike: 00:10:46

Not the best.

Mike: 00:10:47

It's the worst.

Mike: 00:10:47

The shortest way of describing that is to say you think slowly.

Mike: 00:10:51

Can you see any scenario in which someone saying you're a

Mike: 00:10:54

slow thinker is a good thing?

Mike: 00:10:56

Because it, because what comes to mind when we say someone's a bit slow?

Mike: 00:10:59

That's a, that was a phrase certainly back in the 90s They're a bit slow.

Mike: 00:11:04

I they're a bit dim, don't we?

Mike: 00:11:05

A bit, not with it.

Mike: 00:11:07

And then there was another element.

Mike: 00:11:08

So there's this idea of, I see those only as things that can hurt me.

Mike: 00:11:12

I don't see how saying that is a positive.

Mike: 00:11:15

Does that make sense?

Ian: 00:11:16

That makes perfect sense.

Mike: 00:11:17

Then we've got a world, particularly, I was in, Some of the

Mike: 00:11:21

biggest companies in the UK, and it was a privilege to be in them.

Mike: 00:11:24

And I had a great time and please don't think they did anything wrong in this.

Mike: 00:11:27

I think they were representative of the environment, but if as a trainee going

Mike: 00:11:31

into those, if you're weak at something, they made you work on it till you're

Mike: 00:11:35

good at it every year, every six months.

Mike: 00:11:37

In fact, you had an appraisal that looked at what you're doing.

Mike: 00:11:39

What you weren't doing well, if you had something in the not good box, you then

Mike: 00:11:43

needed to improve that over the Next six months, twelve months, whatever.

Mike: 00:11:47

And you did particularly well if you could write something in that I need to

Mike: 00:11:50

improve this area, and next time say, look at this, I'm really good at this now.

Mike: 00:11:54

And I played this game, I was very good at it, so I deliberately put

Mike: 00:11:57

something in the not very good box, which I could then spend time

Mike: 00:12:00

developing and getting better at.

Mike: 00:12:01

So it was true, but then I could be good at it.

Mike: 00:12:04

What I never did is put something in the not very good box,

Mike: 00:12:06

which I know I can't change.

Mike: 00:12:08

My memory is not good.

Mike: 00:12:09

I do memory training things to improve it, but we're talking from a low bar

Mike: 00:12:14

to a very slightly higher low bar.

Ian: 00:12:16

Yeah.

Mike: 00:12:17

have a good memory.

Mike: 00:12:18

And I've come to terms with that.

Mike: 00:12:20

That's part of the unmasking journey for me was coming to true terms with it.

Mike: 00:12:24

It'll be okay.

Mike: 00:12:25

And I should have a story I can share about that very journey, but it was.

Mike: 00:12:30

Coming to terms with that's then helped me move forwards, but

Mike: 00:12:33

I felt I couldn't share that.

Mike: 00:12:35

I couldn't in that corporate environment, explain those weaknesses in a way,

Mike: 00:12:39

because I couldn't take them off and say they're no longer weaknesses.

Ian: 00:12:42

That makes sense.

Ian: 00:12:43

And were you, presumably part of that was you were, I don't know whether the word

Ian: 00:12:47

is afraid, but you were maybe afraid of the judgment of, because those things

Ian: 00:12:53

that you say that they are negative in the world's eyes, poor memory,

Ian: 00:12:58

slow thinker and we can reframe them.

Ian: 00:13:00

We can, We can change the words considered thinker.

Ian: 00:13:03

We can change that, but ultimately people out there in

Ian: 00:13:06

our minds, they're gonna judge us.

Ian: 00:13:08

So how, what was the transition from that?

Ian: 00:13:11

That's quite a low point and quite a negative way of looking things,

Ian: 00:13:14

perhaps a true way, I don't know.

Ian: 00:13:16

How did you then move to where you transition to where you currently

Ian: 00:13:20

are and what you're doing now?

Mike: 00:13:21

Yeah, and I think that is quite just on the negative viewpoint.

Mike: 00:13:25

I think that is a negative viewpoint of it.

Mike: 00:13:27

And whether it's fair or not, I, that's how I felt at the time.

Mike: 00:13:32

And through the 16 years I was in the corporate place and it was less

Mike: 00:13:35

about people judging me and more that it would be held against me

Mike: 00:13:39

when it came to opportunities and

Mike: 00:13:40

For example, while I was at Rolls Royce, I had the opportunity to read through

Mike: 00:13:44

their unpublished, an unpublished report.

Mike: 00:13:46

It was massive, hundreds of pages, huge privilege.

Mike: 00:13:50

And I got to go into a room full of very senior people where they all got, you all

Mike: 00:13:54

get to know each other across, I think it was a weekend, special activity, special

Mike: 00:13:57

project, absolute honor to be picked.

Mike: 00:14:00

If I'd have said to them, Guys, actually, I find reading particularly tiring.

Mike: 00:14:04

They'd have very kindly given that opportunity to someone else, because

Mike: 00:14:07

that was in my best interests to not tie me out over a weekend because

Mike: 00:14:12

it's not playing to my strengths.

Mike: 00:14:13

And yet the opportunity that would have deprived me would have had

Mike: 00:14:17

a direct effect on promotions.

Mike: 00:14:18

That makes sense.

Mike: 00:14:19

So I think by doing in their view, the right thing, potentially,

Mike: 00:14:23

and this is hypothetical.

Mike: 00:14:24

I don't know that this would have played out in this way, but I think

Mike: 00:14:27

if they tried to do the perceived right thing, that would have hurt me.

Mike: 00:14:30

And so one of the key things to me was, I'm conscious I've not

Mike: 00:14:33

actually answered your question.

Mike: 00:14:34

And now I've forgotten it.

Mike: 00:14:35

But one of the key things for me in this was to show where I'm really

Mike: 00:14:40

good and to perform very well.

Mike: 00:14:42

And if I can perform very well and nobody notices the things

Mike: 00:14:45

I struggle with, why tell them?

Mike: 00:14:46

If nobody notices that I struggle to remember things or that I,

Mike: 00:14:50

it takes me more time to read.

Mike: 00:14:52

Then why bother telling them about it?

Mike: 00:14:54

I discovered a really cool thing.

Mike: 00:14:56

So it takes me longer to read because I have to read every word.

Mike: 00:14:59

I, so here's the thing.

Mike: 00:15:00

When one of my children was having a diagnosis for dyslexia, they

Mike: 00:15:03

pointed to this sentence, to a word mid sentence, and it said horse.

Mike: 00:15:07

And they said, Tell me about the horse.

Mike: 00:15:10

And if you just look at the word horse you, most people would be able

Mike: 00:15:14

to tell you it was a brown horse and had a saddle on it or something.

Mike: 00:15:17

They can read a number of words around it.

Mike: 00:15:20

And I remember, I was in the room, and I remember saying afterwards, You mean

Mike: 00:15:23

people can look at more than one word?

Mike: 00:15:25

They can, their brain will interpret more than one word just by looking at one word.

Mike: 00:15:29

My mind was blown.

Mike: 00:15:31

I was like, how?

Mike: 00:15:32

I have to look at every word.

Mike: 00:15:33

If I look at that word, I can see there are words around it, but I can't read them

Mike: 00:15:38

unless I move my eyes to the next word.

Mike: 00:15:40

Because I read every word, I read what is actually said.

Mike: 00:15:44

And because I read what's actually said, I can pick up the tone.

Mike: 00:15:47

I can pick up very clearly what they're actually saying.

Mike: 00:15:49

But I can also, because of the way my brain works, pick

Mike: 00:15:52

up what they're not saying.

Mike: 00:15:53

And there were a number of times I read key statements, draft statements,

Mike: 00:15:57

and said things like, That sounds like you're trying not to say you're

Mike: 00:16:01

about to make 100 people redundant.

Mike: 00:16:03

And they went, how would you possibly know that?

Mike: 00:16:05

It doesn't say that anywhere in it.

Mike: 00:16:06

I said, yes, but the way it's phrased makes me think you're avoiding saying it.

Mike: 00:16:11

And they were considering that as part of the thing.

Mike: 00:16:14

And I did not know that they were, that was something they were considering.

Mike: 00:16:17

So the fact that I could read every word made me actually really valuable,

Mike: 00:16:20

despite it seeming like a weakness area.

Mike: 00:16:22

Does that make sense?

Ian: 00:16:23

that makes perfect sense.

Mike: 00:16:25

And it's one of these angles that says I can take something

Mike: 00:16:28

which is in theory, a weakness.

Mike: 00:16:30

And there's actually a strength in it.

Mike: 00:16:31

So how do I use it to play into the strength bit while not

Mike: 00:16:35

hurting me for the weakness?

Ian: 00:16:36

I think that is so important.

Ian: 00:16:37

I was at the International ADHD Conference.

Ian: 00:16:40

And one of the speakers was talking about the dichotomy of ADHD, and I suppose

Ian: 00:16:45

you could have the dichotomy of dyslexia in that there are all these traits and

Ian: 00:16:51

from a psychological point of view, we tend to look at these negatively.

Ian: 00:16:54

So with ADHD, we know we would look at, again, poor working memory, executive

Ian: 00:16:59

function issues, procrastination, chronic procrastination distractibility.

Ian: 00:17:04

But for each one of those There is potentially a positive and I know we're

Ian: 00:17:09

going to maybe talk about this later in this episode or in the other episode

Ian: 00:17:13

when you're going to come back to talk about so it sounds like in your mind.

Ian: 00:17:16

In your journey, in your brain you were starting to see that it wasn't

Ian: 00:17:21

all negative, that there, there are positives or that you could use part

Ian: 00:17:27

of the way your brain is in to to actually lean into your strengths.

Ian: 00:17:32

This is a tricky one though, because I think, so I can see how that

Ian: 00:17:36

unmasking happened, but for those of us Who are afraid to reveal

Ian: 00:17:42

their neurodivergence or their ADHD.

Ian: 00:17:44

Part of that, I think, is the way we see it, but also the way we're worried about

Ian: 00:17:49

what other people say, and you talked about, in your experiences in corporate.

Ian: 00:17:53

I'm, I worry, I worried with this podcast and one of the reasons why I don't

Ian: 00:17:58

promote this As much as I should, I'll be totally honest here, is because I'm

Ian: 00:18:02

afraid about what people are going to say.

Ian: 00:18:05

I worry that, oh, Ian's talking about ADHD again.

Ian: 00:18:09

Everyone's talking about ADHD.

Ian: 00:18:10

Everyone, it's all these things.

Ian: 00:18:12

And so I was, I had a lot of reservations in the whole idea of launching this

Ian: 00:18:17

podcast, but I also feel I have to do this and I actually really enjoy it.

Ian: 00:18:21

And I love these conversations.

Ian: 00:18:22

So have you got any advice for those of us who are afraid to reveal their

Ian: 00:18:30

neurodivergence, their ADHD, particularly in the workplace, but on and with people

Mike: 00:18:35

Absolutely.

Mike: 00:18:36

First off, this is a very personal journey.

Mike: 00:18:39

And so one of the things that I am I against I, I certainly

Mike: 00:18:43

am not very pro is labeling.

Mike: 00:18:45

So if somebody, has recognized ADHD, whether diagnosed or undiagnosed, do

Mike: 00:18:51

they need to tell everyone about it?

Mike: 00:18:53

I think that's a very personal thing.

Mike: 00:18:54

And if I have a slightly skewed version, which is to say, if you need

Mike: 00:19:01

adjustment so that you can be the best you, then it's worth talking about.

Mike: 00:19:05

If you can shape the environment you're in so that you don't need adjustment,

Mike: 00:19:10

you just can be the best you can be, then I don't think you need to be.

Mike: 00:19:14

You're welcome to tell people, but I don't think you need to unmask

Mike: 00:19:17

in that way, in part because I don't think you've got a mask on.

Mike: 00:19:20

I think if you're being you in the workplace already, sufficiently,

Mike: 00:19:25

then I don't feel the need to go, Oh yeah, actually, does that make sense?

Ian: 00:19:29

That does make sense just

Mike: 00:19:31

I do have some things that will help concerning, I will

Ian: 00:19:34

interrupt you.

Ian: 00:19:34

You carry on, but you've maybe start to think.

Ian: 00:19:36

Yeah.

Mike: 00:19:37

Feel free to interject.

Mike: 00:19:38

I think, Ian, if I could use you as an example for a second,

Mike: 00:19:42

I think a bit of a reframe.

Mike: 00:19:43

When we think is there any point in me talking about it?

Mike: 00:19:46

Or is it worth me getting involved in this because others already are?

Mike: 00:19:50

I think there's a real challenge around what resonates for other people.

Mike: 00:19:54

And the way that you talk about it will be different from the way

Mike: 00:19:57

that other people talk about it.

Mike: 00:19:58

Or at least some other people, the way they talk about it.

Mike: 00:20:02

And so you will resonate with a particular type of person.

Mike: 00:20:04

And what if no one is talking to them?

Mike: 00:20:06

What if no one Is talking in a way that they understand or bringing the

Mike: 00:20:11

focus or the style that works for them.

Mike: 00:20:14

And by keeping that sort of quieter or more reserved, the reframe

Mike: 00:20:18

here, how is that impacting others?

Mike: 00:20:20

How are you holding other people back because you're not?

Mike: 00:20:23

Being more confident about talking about it for those that will

Mike: 00:20:26

resonate more strongly with this.

Mike: 00:20:28

Does that make sense?

Mike: 00:20:29

So my reframe if someone was thinking I find it very hard or I'm very worried

Mike: 00:20:33

about unmasking Step one is I would genuinely ask the question Do they need

Mike: 00:20:37

to if they can shape their world in a way that's going to work for them without

Mike: 00:20:42

and they see it's not Going to add any particular benefit Don't bother because

Mike: 00:20:46

I don't, I think you can break the mask.

Mike: 00:20:48

Maybe that's the difference.

Mike: 00:20:49

Maybe that's like the mask dissolves rather than taking on off and being

Mike: 00:20:53

like, this is really me, but I think where we're holding ourselves back.

Mike: 00:20:56

And I, when I realized through my dyslexia journey, actually through the coaching

Mike: 00:21:01

self reflection development elements.

Mike: 00:21:03

I realized that every single one of my weaknesses that comes from

Mike: 00:21:06

dyslexia is directly linked to a strength and a strength, which has

Mike: 00:21:12

given me a very successful career in corporate finance and a strength that

Mike: 00:21:16

continues to make me a very good coach.

Mike: 00:21:18

Those weaknesses, I think, I talk a bit like a coin, and the weaknesses

Mike: 00:21:23

are one side of the coin, and the strengths are the other, and I

Mike: 00:21:25

can't have one without the other.

Mike: 00:21:28

And no matter what I do to those weaknesses, whether I file that

Mike: 00:21:30

down to make it look pretty or, sorry, try and file it away, or

Mike: 00:21:34

whether I color it or something to try and make it look exciting,

Mike: 00:21:38

I've still got that weakness side.

Mike: 00:21:39

But what if I just turn the coin over and put all my effort into using my strengths?

Mike: 00:21:43

And what I found in my corporate world as I got thrown into job after job

Mike: 00:21:48

because I was really good and doing a really good job, they kept chucking

Mike: 00:21:51

bigger, more challenging problems at me to solve, and I kept solving them.

Mike: 00:21:54

And that's how my brain works, how my dyslexia brain works.

Mike: 00:21:57

I was very good at doing that.

Mike: 00:21:58

I think in those moments, most people wouldn't have cared.

Mike: 00:22:01

If I'd have said, by the way, I'm dyslexic, and that's why I can do this.

Mike: 00:22:03

I think they'd have Ah, fair enough.

Mike: 00:22:05

Here's another problem.

Mike: 00:22:06

Go again, right?

Mike: 00:22:08

You're up.

Mike: 00:22:08

We've got this other issue of your game might go solve that and it just

Mike: 00:22:12

I don't think that would have mattered and yet for me personally, I don't

Mike: 00:22:15

think Showing my hand of weakness, which I can't do anything about if

Mike: 00:22:19

someone wants to come at me for.

Mike: 00:22:22

I still don't see an upside of putting that card down on the table.

Mike: 00:22:25

So I don't see why I would say I have a processing speed challenge or a memory

Mike: 00:22:28

challenge unless there's an upside to me.

Mike: 00:22:30

Does that make sense?

Ian: 00:22:31

that makes sense.

Ian: 00:22:32

Yeah,

Mike: 00:22:33

coach, it's easy for me to talk about that and encourage people to

Mike: 00:22:35

lean into what makes them special.

Mike: 00:22:37

As a finance employee of a large multinational, I would explore the stuff

Mike: 00:22:43

I needed help with or change with, but I would not necessarily do the other bits.

Ian: 00:22:49

That's a really helpful way of looking at it, and I've been

Ian: 00:22:51

thinking about you, you mentioned, you're not a fan of labels.

Ian: 00:22:53

I, and I totally see what you're saying there.

Ian: 00:22:57

And I think for me, late the label, if we want to call that ADHD, a

Ian: 00:23:01

a label, I think that has been immensely helpful to me personally,

Ian: 00:23:05

because it gives me a vocabulary.

Ian: 00:23:07

However, saying that to the world, I have ADHD, May or may not be particularly

Ian: 00:23:13

helpful, because everyone has different ideas of what that actually means.

Ian: 00:23:16

But to me, that's helpful.

Ian: 00:23:18

But so I think it's important to see that distinction the same way

Ian: 00:23:21

like you could have gone into your workplace and say I need glasses.

Ian: 00:23:24

I'm wearing glasses because I'm short sighted.

Ian: 00:23:27

And, people probably don't necessarily need to know that.

Ian: 00:23:30

But you've made those adjustments to yourself.

Ian: 00:23:32

for wearing the glasses.

Ian: 00:23:33

And is that maybe a good analogy?

Mike: 00:23:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike: 00:23:36

So I had a raised desk when I was in in the office and it was slightly

Mike: 00:23:41

raised, but it was raised because of my height meant they should just

Mike: 00:23:45

give me a slightly higher desk.

Mike: 00:23:46

I hadn't really realized that it was going to crick my neck

Mike: 00:23:49

if I hadn't have used that.

Mike: 00:23:50

But after.

Mike: 00:23:51

10 years, 12 years of not having a raised desk than having a raised desk.

Mike: 00:23:54

I was like, wow, this is more comfortable to sit at.

Mike: 00:23:57

It's quite visible when you've got a raised desk.

Mike: 00:23:59

And yet also, That was just a help in those scenarios.

Mike: 00:24:03

Just like I wear glasses, just like you in yes, absolutely.

Mike: 00:24:07

And if it helps you understand the problem, and I think ADHD in particular,

Mike: 00:24:12

there's a lot of language currently helping people understand the kinds of

Mike: 00:24:16

traits or the kinds of things they may or may not experience and appreciate.

Mike: 00:24:19

Again, ADHD like dyslexia, like autism is not.

Mike: 00:24:23

You have ADHD and therefore this is true.

Mike: 00:24:26

It is

Ian: 00:24:26

Yeah.

Mike: 00:24:27

within these, you may experience some of these links

Mike: 00:24:30

to the fact you have ADHD.

Mike: 00:24:32

I want to, if I can, I want to share other things.

Mike: 00:24:34

Is that right?

Mike: 00:24:35

The first is writing.

Mike: 00:24:36

I need to write the second one down.

Mike: 00:24:37

I'm going to forget it.

Mike: 00:24:39

Because that is my brain.

Mike: 00:24:40

And

Ian: 00:24:40

I could say, I wish I could do that writing down at the same time.

Ian: 00:24:45

I struggle with multitasking.

Mike: 00:24:46

and it's jumped.

Mike: 00:24:47

It's gone.

Mike: 00:24:48

Hopefully it's going to come back, but let's see.

Mike: 00:24:50

So the first is writing.

Mike: 00:24:51

So let's just use my handwriting as an example.

Mike: 00:24:53

When I started where was I?

Mike: 00:24:55

I was at Experian actually, and brilliant company, really enjoyed it, had amazing

Mike: 00:25:00

opportunities and did really well.

Mike: 00:25:01

I really loved being there.

Mike: 00:25:03

When I first arrived, I was a project manager, really.

Mike: 00:25:06

They called it a project accountant.

Mike: 00:25:07

And my job was to go and take notes on key status meetings, make sure

Mike: 00:25:11

everything's moving forwards chase down actions, that sort of thing, and

Mike: 00:25:15

send a summary around to everyone.

Mike: 00:25:16

And the default standard was, here's a notebook, here's a pen, write it up, you

Mike: 00:25:20

type it up afterwards and send it around.

Mike: 00:25:22

And I did that for a week, maybe two, and realized I was in real trouble.

Mike: 00:25:26

To write fast enough to capture the things people were saying,

Mike: 00:25:30

it will, I couldn't read it.

Mike: 00:25:31

If I left gaps thinking I'll fill that in when I write it

Mike: 00:25:34

up, my memory wasn't there.

Mike: 00:25:35

And I was like, Oh dear, now what do I do?

Mike: 00:25:38

Just started a new company, really like my boss.

Mike: 00:25:41

This is not a good moment.

Mike: 00:25:42

Do I go and see my boss and say, let's do some training.

Mike: 00:25:44

Send me on a handwriting course training, maybe a memory training.

Mike: 00:25:46

Maybe I could learn some form of shorthand.

Mike: 00:25:49

Maybe I could go and ask for that.

Mike: 00:25:50

And I think I could have asked for that, and I think I would have What I

Mike: 00:25:52

did instead is say, what am I good at?

Mike: 00:25:54

I'm quite a quick typer.

Mike: 00:25:56

At the time, probably 50 words a minute.

Mike: 00:25:58

I was doing a speed test with the kids the other day, 70 words a minute.

Mike: 00:26:00

I was pretty impressed with 70 words.

Mike: 00:26:02

I don't think I can sustain it.

Mike: 00:26:04

But I can type fast enough, even back then, to capture what people were saying.

Mike: 00:26:07

So I captured it live, and then at the end of the session, immediately,

Mike: 00:26:12

when everyone was stepping up to leave the room, I would literally

Mike: 00:26:14

press send and send the notes around.

Mike: 00:26:16

And it meant that not only were my notes more accurate, I saved all the

Mike: 00:26:20

write up time, which was probably worth a day a week of time, and everyone had

Mike: 00:26:24

their notes probably two days earlier.

Mike: 00:26:26

And I remember going back to my boss and going, I literally have a day free.

Mike: 00:26:30

What do you want me to do?

Mike: 00:26:31

And then being pretty mind blown.

Mike: 00:26:33

And I use that as an encouragement to say, I really think we need to

Mike: 00:26:36

stop looking at what I can't do and start looking at what I can do.

Mike: 00:26:40

How am I great?

Mike: 00:26:41

Where am I amazing?

Mike: 00:26:43

And how do I lean into that?

Mike: 00:26:44

And then maybe the question around support comes, what do I need?

Mike: 00:26:50

To help me do that in the best possible way, because if I can be that special

Mike: 00:26:54

strength, then basically that's where I'm going to change the world.

Mike: 00:26:57

Or that's where I'm going to add all the value or be incredible.

Mike: 00:26:59

So that's where I'd like us to the world.

Mike: 00:27:02

That's where I'd like the world to be focusing.

Ian: 00:27:04

definitely.

Ian: 00:27:05

There is and there is that journey that we have to do.

Ian: 00:27:07

We can't expect the world to make a journey.

Ian: 00:27:11

We can hope and we can maybe help and facilitate other people, but we

Ian: 00:27:15

have to make that journey ourselves.

Ian: 00:27:17

And you've made that journey.

Ian: 00:27:19

I'm on that journey.

Ian: 00:27:20

I know that listeners and viewers are on that journey inevitably, you're

Ian: 00:27:24

going to look at a lot of the traits of ADHD, autism, dyslexia, you're going

Ian: 00:27:29

to look at those probably in a very negative light and get quite, maybe quite

Ian: 00:27:32

depressed or angry, a range of emotions.

Ian: 00:27:35

But looking at those positives, but that dichotomy that yes you, there are things

Ian: 00:27:41

that you can do that other people can't.

Ian: 00:27:44

And that's what you mentioned for you.

Ian: 00:27:45

And a lot of people with ADHD tend to be quite intuitive.

Ian: 00:27:48

It sounds like you, you were quite intuitive with words, like all.

Ian: 00:27:52

the meaning behind the words, which is fascinating.

Ian: 00:27:55

I've noticed that I can be very intuitive.

Ian: 00:27:57

I can read, this is not always a good thing.

Ian: 00:27:59

I can sometimes read the expression on someone's face, and they might try, they

Ian: 00:28:05

might, for example, they might be trying to look interested, but I know actually

Ian: 00:28:10

they're not interested because I've learned, unfortunately, over the years.

Ian: 00:28:13

Mike, what are we going to do?

Ian: 00:28:14

Because This has been so fascinating.

Ian: 00:28:17

But I'm also looking at time.

Ian: 00:28:19

I would like to, if that's okay with you, we'll finish this episode now.

Ian: 00:28:23

And then all the other questions that I wanted to ask you about this episode,

Ian: 00:28:26

we're going to do as a second episode.

Ian: 00:28:28

And then the other episode we're just going to have to do later.

Ian: 00:28:30

Is that okay with you, Mike?

Ian: 00:28:31

Cause this, I just, there's so much, I want to focus on the

Ian: 00:28:34

next episode on the strengths.

Ian: 00:28:36

And I also wanted to so I want to ask you about those strengths, but also there

Ian: 00:28:40

are other kind of areas that I think we could really do with your insight on.

Ian: 00:28:44

So is that a good thing to

Mike: 00:28:45

That would be great.

Mike: 00:28:46

I'm very happy to do that.

Mike: 00:28:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Ian: 00:28:48

Yeah.

Ian: 00:28:49

Cause there's just so much.

Ian: 00:28:50

And you were right, Mike, Mike was saying just before I press record, you

Ian: 00:28:54

know, there's quite a few questions.

Ian: 00:28:56

Yeah, there's quite a few, you know, I was there thinking, Yeah, no, no problem.

Ian: 00:29:01

No problem.

Ian: 00:29:02

We'll be able to talk about all that.

Ian: 00:29:03

But you're

Mike: 00:29:03

there's quite a few questions, but I think more importantly than the

Mike: 00:29:06

number, there's a lot of good questions that I think are very useful for people

Mike: 00:29:10

to explore and hear, and this is all part of a broader conversation, isn't it?

Mike: 00:29:14

And so they're great to explore.

Ian: 00:29:16

Yeah, exactly.

Ian: 00:29:17

So today we've been focusing on that masking.

Ian: 00:29:20

And we've been talking about this journey of, Maybe accepting the way we are.

Ian: 00:29:26

And this is really all about, building a business.

Ian: 00:29:30

That's what would you say, like a building that building a business that works

Ian: 00:29:33

for you, that is, that's you shaped, so in the next time that Mike comes back.

Ian: 00:29:38

Is we're going to talk about those strengths and a few

Ian: 00:29:41

other things to do with that.

Ian: 00:29:42

So thank you, Mike.

Ian: 00:29:43

It's been great to have you on the podcast.

Ian: 00:29:46

How can people find out more about you?

Ian: 00:29:48

We've got all the information in the show notes, but what's, where's the best

Ian: 00:29:52

place for people to connect with you?

Ian: 00:29:54

Of

Mike: 00:29:54

I'm always up for connections on LinkedIn and Instagram.

Mike: 00:29:57

The, as you say the details are in the notes, please come give me a follow.

Mike: 00:30:00

And if I can plug my quiz as well, all about thriving, whether that's thriving

Mike: 00:30:05

as a solopreneur or thriving as a actually as a small business owner, more

Mike: 00:30:08

broadly or as an employee, different quizzes but all doing the same point,

Mike: 00:30:13

so please do come along and have a look in the links are in the show notes, I

Ian: 00:30:17

definitely do that.

Ian: 00:30:18

Definitely do that.

Ian: 00:30:18

I've done the quiz and I was very impressed.

Ian: 00:30:20

It was really insightful.

Ian: 00:30:22

It's, it gives you, I think, for.

Ian: 00:30:25

There's many different types of ADHD, there's a lot of people with

Ian: 00:30:27

ADHD, I keep saying this, but one of the things that we, I often need

Ian: 00:30:32

help with, I think is, That's that.

Ian: 00:30:35

It's that self reflection or that's how we view ourselves.

Ian: 00:30:38

We're not always so good at that.

Ian: 00:30:40

So all of these kind of things, particularly this quiz, I

Ian: 00:30:43

think, is really useful.

Ian: 00:30:44

Thank you, Mike.

Ian: 00:30:44

It's been great.

Ian: 00:30:46

Thank you so much for watching for plugging us into your ears.

Ian: 00:30:49

Watching on the YouTube's really appreciate that.

Ian: 00:30:51

But I'm next.

Ian: 00:30:52

Until next time, I encourage you to be smart with your ADHD.

Ian: 00:30:55

Toodaloo.