Is sleep something you ignore? Something you think of as less important? Today’s guest refers to it as the “Cinderella” of good health for this very reason. It’s the thing we don’t pay attention to or notice, especially if it is going well. Sleep is something we take for granted.

If you’ve gone through a period when sleep doesn’t come easily, you know how disruptive lack of sleep can be. However, you may not have given much thought to all the varied impacts it can have on your day and your health. We rarely see the line that connects sleep to so many other pieces of our life and our functioning.

France Taylor shares valuable information in today’s conversation; everything from how you know when you have a sleeping problem to how much sleep you need and whether cherries or bananas might magically help us get our Zzzzzs.

Frances Taylor is a Sleep Expert and Fellow of The International Stress Management Association (UK), with over 15 years’ experience facilitating resilience events in diverse settings, from Universities to international film studios. During her work Frances realized that there was a missing piece when it came to people’s health and wellbeing – the importance of sleep. She decided to devote herself to providing engaging and highly practical sleep programs drawing on clinically tested approaches that work. Her therapeutic practice is based on CBTi – Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia, the first line treatment in the UK and also highly rated in the States. Her online programmes and 1:1 coaching show people how to sleep well, work well, and live well within just a few weeks, without medication.

Best ways to connect with Frances:

Her website: https://sleepwell.today

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francestaylor/

Here’s the Sleep Diagnostic Tool Frances mentioned:

https://sleepwell.today/sleep-diagnostic/

You can also find her online course here:

https://sleepwell.today/fundamentals-programme/

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[00:00:22] Shawna: If we might just be having an off window or if we may need more help around it, we'll also learn some of the many things that sleep can affect. There's even a diagnostic tool you'll learn about at the end that will give you next steps to transform your sleep. I'm so glad you're here with us today.

[00:01:01] Shawna: I love to hear what you have to say. It is so valuable to learn your perspective and what you enjoy about this show so we know what to focus on going forward. Thank you for being part of this community.

[00:01:20] Shawna: Frances has over 16 years of experience facilitating resilience events in diverse settings. From universities to international film studios. She was once given a tour of the James Bond studio. During her work, Frances realized that there was a missing piece when it came to people's health and wellbeing, the importance of sleep.

[00:02:02] Shawna: Her online programs and one-to-one coaching show people how to sleep well, work well, and live well within just a few weeks without medication, which is just amazing. So we are so excited to have her here on The Grit Show today to talk more about this. Welcome, Frances. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:25] Shawna: Me too. For all of you guys listening, I actually hunted down Frances and found her cuz I felt sleep was a really important topic and I think her approach is something we're all gonna enjoy learning more about and her wealth of knowledge is something we're gonna gain from.

[00:02:43] Frances: Yeah. Well, sleep is the Cinderella of good health if you think about it, because we kind of ignore it or we've got into the habit of becoming a little bit arrogant about sleep and thinking it's not that important.

[00:03:20] Frances: Um, so, you know, in the, I dunno how it is in the States, but in the UK. Uh, you know, we have a lot of public health messages around diet and exercise. Uh, and if I was to ask a group of people, you know, tell me your top tips for a healthy diet, or tell me what's the recommended amount of exercise we should be doing.

[00:04:04] Frances: Uh, you know, go on the internet and come away. Not much clearer. So really sleep is something that hasn't been given due priority and it is slowly changing. I dunno what it's like in the states, but it's slowly, slowly changing. And now over here in the UK, we are finding more businesses. Interested in providing educational sessions for their people around the importance of sleep?

[00:04:46] Frances: But really it was off the agenda. It was out of public consciousness. So that's why, you know, sleep is really, really important and just as important as diet and exercise for your, for your

[00:05:04] Shawna: What works and what doesn't, and we don't have any clues. And there's all a lot of myths and magic around what we think will work. And sometimes we're trying things and sometimes we aren't. And a lot of times we're just like powering through without trying to find the right solutions for ourselves.

[00:05:19] Frances: There are a lot of myths out there. You know, you can go on the internet, some of the advice is great, let's be fair, but some of it is either misleading or it's incomplete. There's a lot around diet and nutrition, and there's some sources that suggest if you just eat this kind of food, your sleep will magically be, you know, improved.

[00:05:57] Frances: You know, there's really dark. Yeah. Well, they're not only really expensive, but I mean, the scientific evidence that they're gonna fix your sleep if you've got a serious sleeping problem. Yeah. I'm afraid it's just not there. So. You know, when I was doing my training, I was asking the lead professor, you know, what about diet?

[00:06:22] Shawna: It's not the magic trick. Huh?

[00:06:37] Shawna: So what is, when you're trying to figure out sleep and how do you even know if you need to be worried about sleep? If you're just having a period where it's a problem, or if it's something that's, you need to stop and address it because it's becoming systemic. Like how do you know when it's a problem?

[00:07:16] Frances: Or, oh my goodness me, my sleep's not very good. But the problem with those apps is they're really cannot be that accurate. They really can't be that accurate. They can be very rough, they can approximate, but the only way to really know what kind of sleep you are having, Is when you do a proper examination of the brain activity during sleep.

[00:07:54] Frances: And if the answer is yes, most days I do, then you are getting the right kind of sleep. You're getting the right quality and the right quantity. So that's the starting point. How do you actually feel after your sleep? Do you feel good on it? And the second thing I'd say is like, everyone has a bad night now and then, don't they?

[00:08:29] Frances: You'll find that if you stay relaxed, you'll sleep will rebalance and you'll get back to sleeping well. So to kind of answer your, answer, your question, it's a problem. When it becomes a problem for you, when you start to feel that it's, uh, happening too often and when it's starting to affect your self in your daily life, you know when it's starting to worry you, when you're starting to struggle with daytime fatigue, when it's, uh, impairing the quality of your life.

[00:09:02] Shawna: Oh, that makes very good sense. That definitely works. And what about like when you wake up? Because I know that I'll have periods of time where I joke that I have had, I feel like it's during high stress where I have what I call my witching hour, like at two or 3:00 AM that I would just wake up, but it feels like it was during high stress and it would be during that time that it would go away.

[00:09:28] Frances: it's really important to remember that waking up is completely normal, okay?

[00:09:50] Frances: And there are some stages where we kind of come up to the surface before we deep dive down again. And when we're coming up to the surface, there are the times when we're more likely to be disturbed by light or by noise or need to go to the bathroom, something like that. So waking up isn't usually in itself a problem.

[00:10:24] Frances: And that's the time to sort of, uh, do what you can to calm yourself down, to remind yourself that you can deal with things in the daytime. You know, nighttime is really not the time to problem solve. So yeah, that would be a kind of an early warning sign that you need to, you know, maybe deal with the stress, but also.

[00:10:49] Shawna: not waking up is the problem, but you do when you wake up now, you

[00:11:01] Frances: You know, and in a minute you start to get crossed with yourself. Well, you know, you are not in the frame of sleep then when you're starting to get cross and angry and frustrated with yourself.

[00:11:23] Shawna: Like what is actually, how do you handle that?

[00:11:44] Frances: The only time I have kind of word of warning about naps is if you actually do have a sleep problem. Because one of the factors that drives our ability to feel sleepy and therefore sleep is called the sleep drive. So basically the longer you're awake, the stronger the drive for sleep, the more your body is saying We need some sleep.

[00:12:26] Frances: You definitely shouldn't be doing that if you're sleepy and you definitely need to have an app if you've got a long journey and you feel short on sleep. But generally speaking, if you've got a sleep problem, Then try to avoid daytime naps. And the same goes with long lions at the weekend as well. Cuz again, if you're having trouble sleeping, what we want is a really regular routine.

[00:12:52] Shawna: drive. Yes. So if you do have shift work, you should, and you have an adjusted sleep time because you work from let's say 3:00 PM to midnight that you should try to always go to bed at 1:00 AM to 8:00 AM which should be when you sleep because that's when you need to adjust your time to work with

[00:13:12] Frances: Yeah, I think shift work is a tricky one for sleep. It definitely is, and if you're on changing sleep patterns. So it's a question of working out what works for you. So some people might come off a shift, they might make themselves stay up for a bit and then they'll go to sleep, or they might go for a short sleep, wake up, do some stuff, and then go back to sleep.

[00:13:41] Shawna: one. It's a tricky one.

[00:13:43] Shawna: one. Yeah. And your sleeping needs change as you age, because I know that it seems that it's different.

[00:14:00] Frances: Yeah, well, yeah, you're right. Our for sleep changes through as we get older. You know, babies are classic, aren't they?

[00:14:23] Frances: But again, it comes back to how you feel. But generally adults, I think there's, the research is saying now that adults are needing something between seven and 10 hours, you know, it's quite a, a broad spectrum. And again, it's not about obsessing how many hours you need, it's just like how you feel.

[00:14:56] Frances: Because their teenagers are just coming to school, but they're not ready, they're not really awake in their circadian, in their body rhythms when it comes to older people probably need a little bit less sleep, but I think it often is related to, you know, maybe if you're not working anymore, you're not as active anymore, you can dose in the day.

[00:15:29] Shawna: Yes, he had, I think he said weird sleeping habits at night. He was staying crazy late. It felt like it got up early, but I think he was secretly taking naps during the day and not admitting to it. I just didn't see him during the day much.

[00:15:42] Shawna: definitely. That was probably it.

[00:16:03] Shawna: And then I don't know if it was my age or just going through that experience, but after that, like I needed eight to 10 hours of sleep a night. And for a number of years that shifted and I'm finally getting back to now needing closer to seven to eight hours and I'm fine. But for a number of years I needed that.

[00:16:26] Frances: Yeah, I'd say so. I think that when you've got a lot on in your life, whether that's, you know, illness for yourself or your family or a bereavement or yeah, a high demand job, I think, uh, it's your body's way of making sure you get the rest and the recuperation that you need.

[00:16:57] Frances: I just think it's about listening and, and not having such a rigid schedule that, you know, I know we, with work, we have to be pretty rigid at times, but it's about being flexible and listening to your body and, and adjusting as as appropriate.

[00:17:16] Shawna: So how much do you stick to that? Do you come up with what works for you and then adjust it if you feel like you're still tired? Or how do you even start with that if you're like, you know what? I do need to be more mindful of my sleep and having a regular routine. So how do you even start? Do you just like randomly pick a time to start going to bed and getting up, or is there a way to start somewhere and then see if you're tired or not?

[00:17:54] Frances: So for example, I worked with a teacher and he used to go to bed at eight o'clock at night. And he didn't used to have to get out of bed until seven, so he was in bed for 11 hours. And I said, why? And he said, well, because I just hope during that time I'm gonna get enough sleep, five hours sleep. What's interesting about that, Shauna, is that he's spending a whole load of time in bed because actually only getting a tiny amount of sleep.

[00:18:45] Frances: And then we're gonna say, maybe let's try seven hours in bed. So, you know, moving the bedtime later, it is varies. It depends for everybody. But when someone's got a, a insomnia or a real sleep problem, you need to actually create a situation where they're very tired when they get into bed so tired that it kind of overrides the busy brain, overrides all their kind of fears about whether they're gonna sleep.

[00:19:32] Frances: You can now go to bed a bit earlier, spend longer in bed. But that's kind of how you do it. But for your listeners, I'd be saying think about how many hours are you allocating for sleep. So are you in bed for at least seven hours a night? And if you are in bed for less than seven hours, then you're not allowing yourself the opportunity for a decent stretch of sleep.

[00:20:11] Frances: You know, it's not easy. But I think that brings me back to, you know, we need to prioritize our sleep some more. We need to give it proper space and kind of proper respect.

[00:20:26] Shawna: Oh, sleep. That's what's gonna go.

[00:20:39] Shawna: Oh yes. When I have stayed up late trying to finish projects, I can tell you that I'm making great progress and then it takes three hours to finish that last thing.

[00:20:54] Frances: You much better going to bed and getting up. Now earlier I'm

[00:21:01] Frances: I know. But if that's when we kind of have to parent ourselves around sleep and say, right off you go, come on, it's time now.

[00:21:26] Shawna: Fun and it's sports and this and that and that. Women always being told it's for weight loss is how this conversation started. And for me saying the first time that I took like an exercise class was in college and it coincided with the semester that I was working security. Yes, I worked security in college and if you've met me, you'd be surprised by that possibly, but I had to stay up one night a week to do a midnight to 6:00 AM shift to do security.

[00:22:10] Shawna: And when we had this conversation we're talking about. So when I clicked that, not only was the first time I did exercise and it did not equate with weight loss, they definitely equated with weight gain, but I also realized that sleep was what I was missing. So it felt to me like my body not getting.

[00:22:43] Frances: Well, definitely there's a couple of things there.

[00:23:12] Frances: The way the body's working, not just a physical body, but also our cognitive, our mental processes. So you've got a hormone in your bloodstream that's telling you you need to eat more. And it makes sense really, because if you think you are not sleeping, then you are gonna feel fatigued. So the body's going, right, we need.

[00:23:51] Frances: The caffeine is, yes, the caffeine, yeah, definitely caffeine. But then what happens? That floods our system and then we crash and then we feel tired again. So off we go again on this kind of rollercoaster. I think, you know, for anyone that's wanting to exercise or you know, lose a little bit of weight or just have a healthier life, you've gotta start with the basics.

[00:24:32] Frances: Because not only, you know, have I talked about the hunger hormones, but it also changes the way we store sugars in the body and completely, you know, messes up how the body manages sugars and glucose levels and all that kind of thing. So yeah, there's a big correlation between lack of sleep and appetite and weight gain.

[00:24:53] Shawna: That makes perfect sense. And it's really funny that it wasn't until this conversation, it's been a long time since I was 18, and in college you guys, but it was a conversation much later really in about exercise. I was like, wait a minute. That was also the term that I did not sleep one day a week.

[00:25:11] Frances: was working with a woman recently and she just said, you know, I had so many other health and wellbeing issues that I needed to look at, but until I saw to my sleep, I just couldn't get my head around them because it's just like one, you know, if you're, if you're short and sleep, it's struggle to get through the day, isn't it?

[00:25:36] Shawna: that. Yes. When you felt tired all the time. It's really hard to do anything.

[00:25:41] Frances: yeah. It's very miserable. It's, I think that's the other thing that we shouldn't underestimate how miserable lack of sleep makes people. I think there's, uh, been a lack of understanding and maybe some empathy. You know, people talk about not sleeping well and people just go, oh yeah, poor you kind of thing.

[00:26:17] Frances: You know, they feel bad about themselves. So, you know, it can really affect your mental wellbeing when you don't sleep well. And uh, yeah, definitely we need to be empathetic for people that are having sleeping problems.

[00:26:34] Shawna: I've talked a little bit about some of my history on my show a little bit, but one of the, when I finally got the right combination after I went through a really hard time, which is when I, this show was named during that time when I was going through a difficult time and the, actually the per the medication they put me on was something for P T S D that actually helped me sleep.

[00:27:23] Shawna: And so, as much as having. Working with someone like you without needing medication and doing all those things, like I definitely have specific circumstances, but it surprised me how much sleep was part of what I needed to actually function.

[00:27:48] Frances: That's why you get kind of emotional about stuff. You get angry quicker than you might have done. You become irrational. Your judgment is not as good as it used to be. You know, it's not just you feel rotten after poor sleep. Your brain function as well as your body is all kind of, you know, thrown into a different confusion really.

[00:28:25] Shawna: any new mom who's been

[00:28:29] Frances: They're on another planet. I remember being like that when I was with my newborn. I couldn't re remember the price of a loaf of bread. It was like, how much do I need?

[00:28:49] Shawna: It's kind of for

[00:28:57] Shawna: it. Yes, exactly. But it's definitely something that we definitely know people have experienced. We definitely experienced ourselves at some point in time that it's definitely good to kind of recognize when it's temporary and when it's not temporary, to be able to get the supports to kind of get it back in line cuz it affects so many things.

[00:29:32] Frances: But then you find that even when that's resolved, your sleep problem continues. So what's interesting really is not always the trigger. I mean that's interesting and can be important, but it's like how you're perpetuating this poor sleep habit. What are your thoughts around sleep? What are your behaviors around sleep that are actually maintaining a poor sleep habit?

[00:30:11] Frances: Yes. And that's

[00:30:27] Shawna: Like this is probably a problem. It's probably me and I'm not gonna able to go back to sleep, so I guess I should just get up and I should start reading and I should go do in the other room and, and then they start making it a problem instead of waking up like, oh, this is normal. I wake up and if I just calm my mind and think about going back to sleep and now this is normal, it's not gonna be a problem for the rest of the month and the week and the rest of my life.

[00:30:54] Frances: deal. Absolutely, cuz that's what happens. You get a big shift in mindset, you know, dunno whether you've heard of this, but people, they don't look forward to going to bed. I love going to bed.

[00:31:23] Frances: You know, it was kind of given quite a high status, you know, so when I first started learning about people that don't sleep well, I was like, oh, this is just such an uncomfortable, horrible thing to live with. You know, thank my mother really for bringing us up to know that sleep is really, really important and.

[00:31:56] Frances: Anything, rather than face that moment when they realize or they feel that they, they're not gonna sleep, you know?

[00:32:17] Shawna: It's not for me during the day that at the end of the night I'm kind of like, what is not time for bed yet? I haven't taken care of me, I haven't done my things. And instead of doing things just for me or things that I enjoy, I like punish myself by not falling asleep or not going to bed. So it was like the day can't end yet.

[00:32:52] Shawna: I feel like that like plays in for some people too.

[00:33:16] Frances: But I think that's right. Our lives are so busy, we kind of go full pelt through the day, get through the evening, do all the chores and stuff, and then it's like, ah, at last. But we really need to think about, you know, how we run our whole lives. So for me, often I'm not just looking at how somebody is, once they get into bed, I'm like, okay, tell me about your day.

[00:34:01] Frances: So I think, kind of think in the old days when we all had to go into an office, it, you know, a, a work thought would pop into your mind, but there wasn't much you could do about it. But now you go back on and you can, you know, work. So we kind of have lost that ability to say, right, no, that needs to wait till tomorrow.

[00:34:37] Shawna: Why do we have constant accessibility? Like whose idea was that?

[00:35:00] Frances: But we can't run our working life like Amazon. Well, we haven't got that level of support. We need to look after ourselves more, you know? So, A big thing is, you know, I mean so many people use the phone for their alarm. So you should set your alarm on your phone and then put it outta sight, outta reach, and you know, put it not by the bed.

[00:35:39] Shawna: Yes. I finally got one of those clocks that actually the light starts coming on slowly, like 15 minutes before the alarm, and it actually has nature stands and the ocean is the alarm. I love it. It makes me so happy to wake up to that in the morning. So that is my, that was like the best investment that I ever made cuz it was one of those, get the phone away from a little further away from me on the, in the nightstand, put on the dresser.

[00:36:08] Frances: recommend that. I'd recommend getting a different kind of alarm, an old-fashioned alarm clock or what the kind of, um, light and sound is beautiful that you've described. But definitely don't have your phone anywhere near you when you're relaxing in the evening and when you are, definitely when you're in bed.

[00:36:27] Shawna: Yes, yes. And this is what those do. As I say, now that I do, I'm working on it, you guys. So

[00:36:40] Frances: Bad phases is I check my social and it's just like, oh, I wish I hadn't bothered, not thought I didn't need to, you know, not that early. Yes,

[00:36:58] Frances: done it yet.

[00:37:01] Shawna: Yes. So this is a great way to segue into our self-care spotlight, is what we call it. I wanna change it to like self maintenance or life maintenance. Cause I've decided that it's actually maintenance, like car maintenance, it's necessary and self-care is making it too soft and not giving enough of emphasis.

[00:37:32] Frances: Yeah. Well, I have my phone on silent most of the time, apart from if I know I need a work call. I definitely, most times am successful in leaving my phone downstairs when I go upstairs to bed. I'm a big one for kind of pacing myself through the day, so taking lots of little breaks. So I find sitting down and being on a computer quite tiring after a while.

[00:38:16] Frances: You know, uncomfortable. So definitely, um, moving, changing the scenery as you've mentioned. I'm a big one for, I suppose, you know, I have learned that if I wake up in the night and I do, and some nights I do find it a bit hard to get back to sleep for whatever reason, but I'm a big one for doing a breathing exercise.

[00:38:53] Frances: So I think for me, it's not like one big thing. Like I don't do mindfulness for an hour or anything. I just try and do lots of little things through the day that kind of just take my stress levels down a notch or help my body to move a bit. Um, practical stuff and if I'm tired and I wanna sleep, I sleep, that comes easily to me.

[00:39:32] Frances: It is very tempting, isn't it, to just sit on the sofa, maybe have a glass of wine, but I'm not, I'm gonna go for a walk and I know it's gonna be an effort. It's gonna be an effort to make myself go for a walk cuz I don't really, you know, I feel tired maybe, but I'm gonna go for it. Cause I know afterwards I'm gonna feel better.

[00:39:49] Shawna: Yes. That sounds wonderful. Good plan. So for each of our guests, as a thank you for giving us your time and your wisdom, we actually give each of our guests one of our coloring books. We have a series of coloring books called The Color of Grit, that is, um, representative of of self care and for doing something, take care of yourself.

[00:40:15] Frances: of? I would love the ocean because I absolutely love the sea. That's so interesting. You know, because when we're talking about kind of relaxing for sleep, one of the best things to do is to do something nice and quiet.

[00:40:37] Shawna: Yay. That's wonderful. Well, good. I'm excited that you'll use that and that you'll get that. So we'll get that sent off to you.

[00:40:58] Shawna: Definitely,

[00:41:15] Frances: And then I'd ask yourself, what's the one thing that you could do just to move it up one notch? Not to kind of completely elevate it to the top, but is there one simple thing, maybe something we've talked about today that you could do? So the kind of things I mean would be, could you decide to get into bed half an hour earlier so you've got a little bit longer to enjoy sleep?

[00:41:58] Frances: So just one practical little thing that you could do to move your uh, sleep up one priority level.

[00:42:20] Shawna: Is that right?

[00:42:38] Frances: You'll get, uh, feedback a about which areas of your sleep might need some improvement, and then some practical strategies. So if you are interested in moving your sleep up one priority level, that will be a great place to start. And just choose one of the things that's recommended to you that I'll recommend to you, and then you can implement that.

[00:43:00] Shawna: Yes. I'll have that link within the show notes, so wherever you're listening, just go to the show notes and you can follow that link to be able to fill that out. And then you have a website so people can get to know you more and more of what you do.

[00:43:10] Frances: Yeah, there's a website that I'm sure you'll put in the notes and there you'll find more information and blogs and I've got an online course and there's an opportunity to book a call with me. So lots of different levels of support or help or information, whichever, wherever you are really with your sleep.

[00:43:45] Shawna: I feel like you've given us a wealth of information and really helped the audience a lot. So thank you so much.

[00:43:55] Shawna: thank you.

[00:44:17] Shawna: You can put reviews on Facebook. We also appreciate that. Or if you go onto Apple Podcasts, they have a place for you to leave reviews there, and I'm gonna read you a couple of those, but I really appreciate them. We have one that says I'm in love with this show. It's funny, witty, encouraging, and educational.

[00:44:52] Shawna: Truly fantastic podcast that is sure to gain a ton of momentum. Every episode is engaging, gritty and full of purposeful guests. That is awesome. Another says, so glad I found this show. Super helpful topics. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave your words. We appreciate it. We love hearing from you, and we appreciate the support.