KC and Jamil begin to discuss mental health on university campuses and how to take care of ourselves along with our communities featuring guest Micah Wolf.

Hello everyone, welcome back. Now KC, this has been a project of ours

for quite some time, and today, we are tackling mental health by popular

demand. That's right. And actually, Jamil, before we talk about mental health,

I wanna give a shoutout to some of our listeners who are not

in the state of Connecticut, they're coming to us from NC State.

We heard that folks in Res Life at NC State are using our

podcast to generate conversations, and I think maybe even do trainings.

Yes, and this is a perfect example of how our content can be

used, whether that's in your departmental trainings or to generate conversations,

and all your departments, with students, with faculty, with staff, so hopefully,

our content is resonating with you all and you are finding it useful.

Yeah, and shoutout to our friends at NC State. We love you all.

Yeah. And those of you... If there are listeners out there,

if you are... You're already using this somehow in your world,

share with us. We definitely wanna know how this is showing up for

you, and if you're a listener and that didn't occur to you,

we invite you to absolutely use this like a... It looks like a podcast

version of a book club. All through that.

Yes, programming. Programming. So share this. Share with folks who you think

could use it. It's a good conversation starter. We'll get the conversation

started, you carry it out in your circles, in your world,

so anyway, thank you all to NC State,

and reach out to us. We wanna hear

what you wanna hear about how it's going for you, how people are

responding to the podcast. We love it. So on our conversation today,

we discuss a lot of things. We have our friends who are coming

on from the Counseling Services department at our university, talking about

anxiety. Yeah, we talk a lot... Since the... College student mental health

has been a problem since before the pandemic, and it's a... People are

calling it like the twin pandemic along with the COVID 19 one, and

folks really... We're not seeing... Even with vaccines and all that,

we're still seeing mental health struggles worsening, we're not seeing those

get better as we see the pandemic of COVID 19 getting better,

but depression, stress, anxiety, suicidality, all of that stuff

is something that's really still deeply impacting students, and

if you're part of a university community right now, I'm sure you're seeing

that in your classrooms and in your spaces.

Yes, and as higher education professionals, that doesn't stop with students,

that can often extend to staff and faculty themselves. That's true. So we

talk about ways in which anxiety may show up

across our community, and how can we work together to combat that,

how can we support one another, how can you support your students who

may be going through a difficult time during their undergrad or grad process,

and we know for students that anxiety, depression and other mental

disorders can really hurt a student's ability to show up in the classroom

and be successful, and so hopefully, in this episode, we are able to

give you some tips and some tricks around how to combat this and

really how to be happier in your environment

and get the resources that a lot of our universities have.

Yes, we love talking with Micah, it was sort of like a mental

health session for both of us, he lowered our blood pressure.

So anyway, enjoy this conversation with Micah Wolf. Alright, KC, so today,

mental health. Mental health today and every day. Micah, thank you for being

here with us today. Micah is a graduate student and an intern

here at SCSU. He's in Counseling and School Psychology,

graduating in August, clinical mental health worker, seeing students on

campus as a counselor in therapy sessions, has previously been an academic

support coach, and brings with him some really interesting perspectives.

So Micah, welcome to real talk. We're glad to have you. Thank you

so much. This is very exciting to be here.

So I'm thinking we'll start first where... What are some of your experiences

you're having with students? What is this looking like?

We can start the conversation kind of off there. Great.

The experiences I'm having with students suffice to say is wide ranging,

and to perhaps sound like I'm embellishing here, but

it's awesome. It's all inspiring. There's a lot of struggle, and we'll talk

about that surely. And there's also so much growth, insight, sensitivity,

talent and strength, and there's just a lot of

relationship and aliveness that I'm able to be privy to and kind of

help develop with people. I was talking with my students today about this

episode that we're recording and really realizing how much has changed in

the conversation around mental health since I was in college 20 years ago.

I was a mess in a lot of different ways, as... It's like developmentally,

a challenging time and also an amazing time

for human beings, but I can just see how

I just had very little self awareness, the sense of like, "If you're

struggling, it's your fault." And that still exists, that kind of

stigma, but just the growing conversation, which is why we're doing

this episode today, to really continue to expand and normalize conversations

around mental health and well being. Yeah, that's really important. And

it is really exciting to see in person and on social media the ever

increasing awareness of and de stigmatizing of the importance of mental

health of whole body health of just, again, the community and relationship.

That's a very refreshing way, I think, of viewing this.

University can be a very transformative time in one's life. You're... For

some folks, you're leaving home for the first time, you're moving in, living

on campus, you're immersing yourself in the culture and a new culture,

possibly. You're also probably gonna have some new hurdles in your life

that you may have not had previous. You may have financial hardships,

you may have academic failures, you may have

good times and bad times. I used to always talk about my undergrad

experience being a roller coaster every day. One day you're up,

next day you're down. It's like rolling with the punches.

And for some folks, mental health, this may be the first time where

they're struggling or even thinking about it. Yeah.

And it might be the first time that they're seeing a need

to actually reach out due to bad days that seem to go on

for longer than we're used to, or just additional... All these things you're

mentioning, all these firsts, all these hurdles, they can really add up

quickly and we get winded. And it can be embarrassing and take a

lot of energy to make an appointment or show up to counseling services,

or to even just mention to to a friend, Hey, I'm struggling.

Especially if we, speaking of maybe impostor syndrome and things that can

be rampant everywhere in many ages, all ages and all people.

If we surround ourselves with support, that can feel great. And yet,

getting there is not always the easiest or most obvious path.

Yes. But I know for some folks that go to our university and

that go to other universities, attending said university is the first time

they may even have access to counseling. The first time they may have

access in their life to services. True. And also, they also may be

in a place where they're away from their family and away from cultural

stigma. Exactly. Especially for marginalized groups. Folks are not jumping

to go to therapy. There's a mistrust there culturally. And so now they're

in a place where they have access and maybe even some of that

stigma is removed by their peers, by the staff,

by the overall community encouraging mental health practices, not just with

counseling services, but with the services of the entire university.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think about how student academic success

and mental health and well being, those are inseparable. You can't expect

a student to be academically successful if they are also

unwell. And I just... I talked to my students today and asked them

for any thoughts they wanted to share on the podcast. And

I wanna read just a couple of these to you.

So here's one student. "Even though there's not one particular way a college

student is supposed to act or look like,

I feel like and look like I'm not supposed to be in college

at all." And here's another one. "I would say feeling like an impostor

is a familiar feeling, especially in college. There's so many different

types of people around you, so you sometimes feel as if you have

to act a particular way around different people. I've many times felt like

I'm a high school student pretending to be in college. It feels as

if everyone else is so far ahead of me, and I'm behind,

pretending not to be." And then one more

on the same thing. Yeah, this really... The question about...

This question about impostor syndrome really resonates with folks. "Most

of the places I go, I feel like an impostor since I moved

to the United States. Because of my limited English, I feel like an

impostor some places I go, and even think I won't ever learn a

high level of English." It can be... What I hear in this is

the potential for so much loneliness and isolation and

difficulty and feeling just what we're trying to, I guess, do today,

normalized or a person who isn't alone in their pretending.

And when we're faced with feeling alone, it's pretty hard to...

What am I saying? To open up or to do anything but kind of dig

deeper into this hole away from these winds and

the screaming wind that can be bracing. There is too... And I'm thinking

particularly about, I guess, 'cause I'm teaching in person this semester,

so I'm thinking about that and that as a social opportunity

when we are coming together in the same physical space.

And also, knowing that here we have a room full of people,

everybody's feeling lonely or everybody's feeling a sense of being an impostor,

which actually sort of... If we can really

break through that and connect with each other,

we're actually not impostors if everyone is feeling the exact same way.

And what an opportunity... Truly. In terms of

dealing with this big societal problem that we have right now about social

anxiety, isolation. And like any meaningful opportunity, boy can it be scary,

'cause if you're gonna change that, if you're gonna be in a room

that's previously a room full of people who are not together,

albeit literally, they are together, if you're gonna change that to,

Oh, I see you and you see me,

that can require a leap of faith, that can require a presence,

that can be really uncomfortable in us, especially if it's unusual and uncultivated.

Yeah, something I think of is one of the biggest needs for college

students is a sense of belonging, and honestly for everyone in the community

is a sense of belonging, a sense of connection

that you are wanted here, that if you are not here,

folks will miss you, they will recognize that you're not there,

you feel like you're a part of something larger than yourself.

That typically is what keeps people going to the same job every day,

going to school every day, that sense of belonging, and it's something as

people we all look for and we all thrive with.

And imposter syndrome, I think can be unique, especially for folks that

are marginalized, and I could think about the first time I felt that

feeling. So I was coming to Southern, straight out of Bridgeport from a

straight public public education background, I probably wasn't the most

academically prepared, and I walked into my first class, I had a philosophy

class late at night, and I walked in, I was the only person

of color, and everyone's talking and I'm figuring out I'm the only person

from Bridgeport, the only person really from urban town. There were all

these different towns that I've never even heard of in Connecticut, even

though I've lived here my entire life, and everyone already seemed connected.

It's almost as if they already knew each other, even though this was

a first year class, and so immediately I felt

out of place as if, "Oh, maybe I have

somehow worked my way into this university, and now everyone's gonna think

I'm a fraud because I can't academically perform and maybe

my peers know something I don't." Well, guess what? They did not know

anything that I did not, I'll tell you that.

And some of the ways that I really got around that was taking

up space, sitting in the front row and being vocal

and being more social and talking more is some of the ways that

I was able to outgrow that very quickly,

because if I'm not supposed to be here, we're gonna have a great

time while we're here at least, is kinda how I was working with

it at the time, but I think so many students, especially for

students where university don't feel like a home for them, where their parents

haven't been there, they're siblings, they have no connection to this experience

yet, and they're embarking on this for the first time, may find theirselves

in that space, maybe more than once. And like we always point out

in this podcast, most students are not like you. This is. So I

mean for those... And it's still was something major for you to grapple

with, that feeling of not belonging, and yet you were like 100%

committed to... You got the most out of this education out of anyone

I have ever known, you maxed it out. Do not praise me, yeah. You know

it's true. And there are a lot of people who are just

more shy, more hesitant, perhaps have less of a support system,

a lot about who you are as a person contributed, I think,

to your ability to deal with that and then I... So I'm always

thinking about, "What about folks who are really just painfully shy and

anxious? Or who would never sit in the front row? Or who sort

of shut down when they're faced with challenges?"

Honestly, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is peer

support, and I'm thinking a lot about my first year while I'm sitting

here, and I think about my RAs at the time and the people

that was on our council, and how they rallied floors and how they

rallied people that were shy and included them in things,

so when it's time to go sit in the dining hall,

when it's time to do a study project, making sure that you're roping

in everyone, especially younger students, and I remember my first semester

being very much like that, from older students, being roped in and being

talked to and being told about, "How does the university work?

How does my classes work?" Getting support on that end from my peers,

I received a lot of support from my peers, especially my peers of

color in the very beginning of my university experience, and I think that

really helped me feel a sense of belonging very early on,

also joining clubs and orgs was super helpful.

Yeah, and I think to Micah's point about how scary that can be

to take a leap of faith, that's one. What we know

that joining a collaborate organization, doing meaningful work to you, we

know that that will make a positive difference in your mental health,

and yet it is harder to do than it is to

spend time looking at your phone or come home and watch Netflix,

that is right there for us, and we think it'll make us feel

better and it doesn't in the way that

more meaningful connections with people can. Yeah, I think there's not a

one solution fix all to anxiety, to depression, to

any kind of mental health problem we have going on,

it's not like you gotta join a club and all your problems will

go away and you will somehow feel magically better overnight. No? I think

it's... Yeah, no, I don't think it's that simple,

especially depending on what you're going through at this time 'cause I

always remember telling students that, "Your life doesn't stop in college,

while you're in university, while you're taking classes, your life doesn't

stop because the mid terms are happening, crises don't stop, you

may have family members die in the middle of mid terms, you may

be facing a financial hardship in the middle of mid terms and not

be sure how you're gonna pay next semester." I remember having semesters

like that. You may be going through all types of things,

your first break up, the first time you failed a class and maybe

you were a straight A's student in high school, there could be all

different kinds of stressors happening, but that's why it's important to

meet with folks that I would call your advocates,

that can be folks at the counseling services, that can be maybe a

faculty member, that can be a peer, like a RA or maybe academic success

coach, it could be numerous people. I think students should try to find

a sounding board really early and really lean on them

and see what kind of guidance they can provide as they

rough through the waters. I love that sight or that language,

roughing through the waters, because it can feel insurmountable and like

you're against so much momentum and cold and alone

and painful, to that point about we can be painfully shy and shut

down at challenges. I'm thinking of a previous episode

where, KC, you were talking about teaching and feeling nervous

for not only the first class, but all classes in the semester,

and how there's a real physical response there.

And until we can really start to help ourselves by finding advocates and

methods of means of support, there can be a lot of

pain, quite literally. Yeah. And it can often feel like your fault.

If this is all new, if people seem like they're

doing things easily that take you a long time or a lot of

effort to do, there can be a lot of just internalized

anger, a lot of just internalized prejudice that we can flip out ourselves

and just struggle to see how much we've really done to that impostor

syndrome as well to get to this place, to get to college

is significant. And to face these questions, it's all so, so much.

It's so hard at every turn. Yeah. I think so many folks

perceive maybe other students, their peers to be doing so much better than

them without realizing that maybe they're having just as hard as a journey.

Just because that student seems like they are out there and they're really

social and they have their academics and they're networking and all these

different things together. And maybe you feel like you're not at that similar

place, doesn't necessarily mean that that student feels complete as well.

And when you're going through, especially your undergrad,

I think it's so important to realize that you're on your own track

that cannot be compared to other people's. Your track may take you

five, six years to graduate. Your track may take you a gap year.

Your track may take you from living on campus to commuting to back

on campus. There are so many different ways that your university experience

can be unique to you. Maybe you transfered from three different universities

previous. There's so many different aspects that go into what makes your

experience unique. And when you start comparing it to the success of your

peers, you shortchange yourself. And it's so natural. That's how we learn,

by observing others. And it just fits, of course.

It all plays into that feeling of lost. If others seem to know

what they're doing and you're worried about being exposed as a fraud,

that's an ongoing struggle. It can be. It truly can be an ongoing

struggle. And there's peer support groups all throughout universities across

the country. There's different resources, there's different talks online.

But honestly, truly, I think it's just something you have to work through

every day as part of the battle. And I think as we're battling, as

we're waking up and facing that day and that struggle, we might see,

after some time, some unexpected changes, progress, just things that we

might not have expected, some maybe easiness or some new, not only cognitive

insights, but feelings in our body. Levels of acceptance to the hurt and

the pain, and new levels of connection and excitement and interest and engagement.

And from my experience, university can really shape you, especially when

it comes to your mental health. And you can actually grow tremendously without

realizing. What I noticed is every semester, when a new semester started,

I kinda felt the same, maybe a little different, but the same

and my family would tell me, "No, you're so different. You're growing so

different." To the point where I didn't have... Never really realized,

because I was experiencing it. But you have students that are coming in

potentially with past traumas, with baggage, with things they have experienced,

coming into this space, having new experiences, but through the support

of their community, be able to heal and grow from them and walk

out the other side a better person. So there is always an upside

to the work you're putting in. Working on your mental health can be

a hard job, but it's an extremely important job. You can't be a

rock star student, you can't nail that internship without your peace of

mind. My mom used to always tell me, "You can't put a price

on peace of mind." And I know what she's talking about

now. Micah, I wonder, as we wrap our interview up, if...

You've been here for a couple years and in a few different roles,

and I really appreciate your attention to and focus on the body in

these conversations about mental health, 'cause a lot of times...

Universities traditionally haven't particularly considered the body. It's

about like, "You're a scholar, which is the life of the mind,

and your mental health, that's up in your mind."

But I wonder how... What you think, whether students,

faculty in the classroom, spaces on campus, how can we... What are some

things that we can do, depending on where we are, to better support

student's body, mind and spirit? And each other. I shouldn't say just students.

Everyone. I love that. And I'm gonna kind of

fuse that question or my answer to that with what Jamil was just

saying about walking through... I'm not sure. Walking through the door,

walking to the other side of the experience. We are the people who

do have to do the walking, each one of us, in our own

journey. And yet, boy, can we not do that alone,

and have we only gotten here on the shoulders of those before us.

I think it's helpful to remember when I was joining this program that

I'm in, the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Track at Southern,

previously counseling had been described as empowering a client,

and recently it's changed to helping a client empower

themself. And there's a small shift there, but it's a pretty critical one

in that we need community and support, and

we also are the people showing up as well.

So how can we be a support to others? I think to maybe

be a little obvious, we have to be that support to ourself,

get sleep, drink water, learn as you can

intuitive approaches to ways to nourish yourself with food and outdoors,

and notice with gentle open minded curiosity as much as you can

what it's like to look someone in the eyes without expectation,

that might be impossible, notice thoughts that accompany such moments, maybe

thoughts like, "Oh no, they're staring at me." Or, "Oh, no, they think

I'm staring at them." Or, "I look this way, or... "

There's always thoughts, and yet there can also be openness, a parallel

track in that experience. And in helping people find support or feel support,

just to feel seen, there can be assistance in helping ourselves

see people in the first place, see ourselves in the first place.

Have the space and openness and curiosity and just warmth, just warmth

that allows for someone to be seen in the first place.

So there's institutional and larger systemic needs to help support and

provide equity to institutions of higher learning as well as many other

areas, and on this more personal micro level,

there can be a lot of adaptation and

experimentation and play with just how to be available to a person,

including ourself. And even how you're talking about the body, I'm thinking

about holistic, like treating your holistic self and not just your mental

health. And that could be through many things, maybe getting a fitness program

with your university gym and going on the treadmill for an hour a

day. It could be making sure you're eating

three meals a day. So many students work multiple jobs

and they have classes, they have internships, they may be skipping meals

to catch up on time and the toll that may take on your

mental health. So making sure you're feeding your body so you can feed

your mind, making sure you are working on your body so you can

feel good about yourself, you can feel clearer, you can have some more

peace, maybe even dabbling in meditation or some of the other

more practices that your university may offer. There typically tends to

be people on campus that puts on yoga events sometimes, or

full body scans, which can be very relaxing.

There's so many ways to work on your mental health

that students may not be thinking about, but can make

drastic differences. Oh my gosh, I love what you're saying. There are so

many surprisingly small things that can provide drastic differences. I would

like to also just, maybe caution is too strong a word,

but be in the corner of all of these people listening who might

want this promised clarity and peace and find it really hard to get

to. Maybe to a place of eating three square meals a day or

maybe getting caught up in, "Oh, I should do

these things, go outside, exercise, sleep well, reach out to friends,

not isolate, I should, I should, I should." Should's can sometimes really

bring a lot of expectations and added hardship, and if there's any ability

to have any kind of just compassion for the effort that we're putting

forward as is, that's awesome. I think living intuitively

is a gentle and wise approach, and that doesn't always mean that life

is gonna remain gentle, but that approach is, I think often,

again, always adapting and holistic kind of approach.

Yes, that progress looks unique to one's own self, it does.

What one person's doing to improve their mental help will look drastically

different from you. But what the major step for you will look completely

different from somebody else. It can look very small to someone else,

but be a major step in the right direction for you.

I think it's all customizing how you want to improve

what's happening and taking it day by day, having it on a

day by day. Yes. And that piece of having a little bit of

space and some compassion for yourself and curiosity,

because I think I've been certainly the person who like you can shade yourself

to death and just beat up on yourself for not doing the thing

you know you're supposed to do, and that can just stop you all together.

Exactly. So sometimes whatever it is, drinking enough water, you know, small

things, I know that Jamil and I both

especially lately, I don't know if I should talk about our personal business,

but we've both have had trouble sleeping. And

Jamil will say like, "KC, wow, you are stressed." Or, "You're cranky."

And if I look at the actual conditions of my life,

things are good, things are manageable, things are exciting,

and I know that I haven't gotten good sleep for three nights in

a row, and that's where that comes from. So if I can address

the sleep piece, all of a sudden everything else becomes easier.

So it's not necessarily always about adding more. Yes. And I'm not gonna

lie, sometimes things just feel better in community. You can't sleep, your

friend can't sleep. You didn't sleep nicely. You can't sleep together.

Having a person to talk with, to relate to, to deal with your

mental health with at the same time, which

possibly can be overwhelming, but if it's doable can be really healing for

a person and feel like you're not alone.

So having a friend on your journey or multiple friends on that journey

with you can be a benefit at times.

And I think to grow is to shed skin and have raw surfaces

and there can be vulnerability and pain and discomfort.

And part of the process coming to counseling or just I think as

a person is I think learning to distract and heal and self soothe

despite these basically guaranteed discomforts and difficulties in life,

and we could also ride the wave, so to speak and

live into and through these difficulties as well,

it's helpful to learn ways to survive them, and

it's a place where we can also play and go further than that,

and really live as embodied as possible in a world that has a

lot of suffering. Self soothe, that's a wonderful way of putting it. That's

a really lovely way of putting it, that's very realistic. Micah, just thank

you so much for being here with us today. Actually, I literally feel

like my blood pressure is lower after spending time with you and I

usually... And I can tell, Jamil is like more relaxed too. But we

usually sort of recording episodes, it's sort of

anxiety producing in a lot of ways, but truly like your presence.

I can see that you would be very good at your job,

because I can feel that even just from recording this with you,

so thank you. Thank you so much for saying that, I love hearing

that. And to show you, to self disclose

just how typical your experience probably is as soon as we were talking

for a moment, and as soon as that record 3,2,1 showed up on

the screen, my heart rate increased and my blood pressure increased,

I was very aware of that. It's just so human. These are the

inevitable things that we're riding and running and moving through and with

alongside into. This is lovely. KC, you are right, this feels like the

most relaxed episode I have recorded. Yes. Yes. You have the perfect voice

for narration, you know? Thank you. It's like an audiobook. Yes,

thanks, Micah. So this has been great. You're so welcome. A real honor

and privilege and pleasure to be here. Alright, Jamil, so

for the ending note for this episode, you haven't actually heard this clip

yet, but Madeleine Shaw, who was really the inspiration for this episode

and others on mental health, she sent in a clip that I think

is a really nice note to end our conversation on today.

So you're the one who's gonna hit play, but this is something you're

hearing for the first time, her words for us. It is.

Well, let's listen. I just wanted to share a message of hope.

This message is for everyone listening, when I need to remind myself of

this truth, be okay with not being okay,

forgive yourself and realize whatever is happening, you will be alright.

It's the little mantra I like to tell myself is, I am alright, I

am okay. And sometimes I laugh when I say it because it doesn't

feel honest or true. However, this feeling of being well

and alright may just be a moment. When I'm cooking my favorite meal

or finishing my last exam for a semester,

and this moment can only last a minute but it's a break in

whatever is happening for you. If you collect enough okay moments in your

day, you have a good day and a few good days turn to

a week, a good week, a few good, those weeks turn into a

month. And it's easy to say all these things, right?

Easier to say it removed from what's really happening

but trust me, when I say I've had the best of times and

the worst of times, and I speak from true experience, understanding and

knowing. One final thought I wanna share, it's actually a quote I have

sticked onto my mirror with a post it,

that no matter what happens, the sun will rise in the morning,

that's from President Barack Obama, not me. But these words still ring true

for me. No matter what happens, how you're feeling what's going on,

know that you are not alone, and the sun

is faithful and will always rise in the morning.

And that is the whole clip. It kinda sounds like she's auditioning

for a podcast house. I could just listen to her like a meditation

tape, I love it. A tape. Well, I think what she's saying rings true, right?

Taking things day by day, focusing on the good over the bad moments

of a day, practicing stillness, trying to do things that are within your

control. Yeah, I'm often grateful too for the reset of another day,

it's like sometimes you just need to go to sleep

and another day is another day. Another day is another day. Yeah.

Alright, well, to be continued, conversations about mental health.

So thank you to Madeleine Shaw, thanks to Micah, thanks always to Jamil,

of course. Well, thank you to you as well. But before we go... Yeah, before

we go. We did wanna say, if you're at our university or you're

at your university, I'm sure there are resources for you. Ours are the

counseling services, we're talking the Wellness Center, we're talking

the disability resource center, we're talking Dean of students, there are

plenty of resources at our university and I suggest looking for them at

yours. In addition to that, if you are struggling with mental health,

the suicide hotline, the national suicide hotline number is 800 273 8255.

Yes, and if you enjoyed this conversation and we hope you did,

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