Episode 8 | "Your job is not to get rid of fear. Your job is to learn how to dance with it."

In this episode of Strong & Awake, Dane and Mitch explore the transformative power of tension and discomfort. They discuss how the pursuit of balance often masks a deeper desire for relief from life's pressures, and why embracing tension is crucial for genuine growth. Drawing on insights from Seth Godin and personal anecdotes, they highlight the importance of leveraging fear and stress as tools for strength and awakening. This conversation challenges listeners to redefine their relationship with discomfort and to see tension as a pathway to becoming their most authentic selves. Join Dane and Mitch as they explore the dynamics of voluntary discomfort as the unlikely path to true comfort.

Chapters:

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:12 The Gift of Tension
• 03:19 Dancing with Fear
• 07:42 Craving Relief, Not Balance
• 08:49 Painting the Bullseye Around the Dart
• 11:29 Becoming the Genuine Article
• 15:04 Individual vs. Collective Growth

Mentions:

• Seth Godin: Mentioned for his insights on fear and the importance of learning to "dance with it" instead of trying to eliminate it.
• 75 Hard: Referenced in the context of tension and growth, highlighting the importance of sustained effort and challenge.
• Searching for Bobby Fischer: Mentioned in a story about chess and the development of skills, illustrating the value of early training and community support.
• Adam Grant's Hidden Possibilities: Mentioned regarding cultural norms and inequalities, emphasizing the role of community and opportunity in personal growth.

Anchor Actions:

• Embrace Tension: Identify areas in your life where you feel discomfort or stress and view them as opportunities for growth. Instead of seeking relief, lean into these tensions and use them as training grounds to develop resilience and strength.
• Dance with Fear: Recognize that fear is a constant companion. Rather than trying to eliminate it, learn to work with it. Find ways to create productive tension with your fears, using them as pivot points to achieve your goals and enhance your personal growth.
• Be Honest: Commit to integrity. Avoid shortcuts and the temptation to "paint the bullseye around the dart." Start with recognizing that you might be "cheating" and in the process cheating yourself from the growth that starts with that radical candor.

Join Us:

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Disclaimer:

The information shared on this podcast and any related materials from Men & Women Of Discomfort (MWOD) or Flying S Incorporated are for general informational purposes only. You should not use this information as a basis for making decisions without consulting your own medical and legal professionals. We aim to provide accurate and up-to-date information, but we make no guarantees about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability, or comprehensiveness of the content.

At Men & Women Of Discomfort, we promote agency and encourage you to carefully consider the input we offer. If you find it helpful, we invite you to take advantage of it, but do so with the understanding that you bear the responsibility of due diligence. By using our content, you acknowledge that you are taking opportunities at your own risk. Thank you for understanding.

*Transcript Note: The transcript of our podcast is AI-generated and may contain errors. We aim for accuracy but appreciate your understanding and feedback on any discrepancies.

Copyright 2024 Men & Women Of Discomfort (MWOD.io)

Seth Godin, who is, someone who's had a profound impact on my life, he was talking about fear and His response was basically like, your job is not get rid of fear. Your job is to learn how to dance with it.

If it's not going away, learn how to create tension with it. That actual stress is a gift. It's a training ground. It's a means by which you get stronger. It's a means by which you stay awake. It's a means by which you can actually do loving things for people because you have a capacity to do things that most of your neighbors don't because they've not practiced. And what happens? You become dancers. You develop a capacity to do something you couldn't do before. And it's amazing. And it's why tension is good news if your interest is transformation.

as humans we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path, to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

This is Strong and Awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

The difference between balance and tension. Like so much of us want that like golden mean that like perfect balance in life.

Uh, when really, I think oftentimes the growth comes with the tension rather than trying to maintain that balance. Um, we were talking about this a little bit before we hit record. So I just wanted to bring people into that conversation

yeah, I think that's an, an, um, Important thing to talk about.

You're right. Cause I, I do think there's still a prevailing, um, dream fantasy that people have. Balance means in a lot of people's minds, if they, if you really break it down serenity, right. And, if you really get inquisitive, uh, here's a little test you can offer anybody to find out what they mean when they say balance.

Usually if you say to them, I'm just curious, is your life stressful right now? And they'll say, yes. And I'll say, I'll say, well, say more. And they'll talk about all these challenges, they're up against and all these different things. And, and they're not lying.

They're telling the truth. Uh, but when they say they're craving balance, Uh, just for fun and giggles, like remove the word balance and insert relief and see if they still have the same affirmative yes. Cause I have a hunch when they say balance, what they really mean is they want relief from the stress in their life.

And I respect that. I understand it. I know what that feels like in my world and my vision of my experience in my life. Um, but let's be more honest with her and clear in our words. What you're craving when you say balance is actually not balance. That's what you're craving is, is a relief from whatever.

pressure you're experiencing.

By the way, another way to check it is like, Oh, you want more balance. Um, so if you, is there some area in your life we could add some more stress? Because you have too much serenity in that area and no one says, Oh yes, please. I'd like more of that.

Thanks. Uh, and uh, again, it's an easy way to test what people actually mean when they say balance. So. Um, I think what, what we're talking about in contrast with, with this kind of, um, cultural ideal that I don't think is real, um, is, is tension. And, uh, one of my favorite examples of this, um, we had the opportunity, I was hosting a conference in, uh, Costa Mesa, California a number of years ago.

And, um, Seth Godin, who is, uh, someone who's had a profound impact on my life, was very gracious to actually join us. Um, for this event, um, over audio and it was this really cool moment where, um, I was talking and we'd given everybody one of Seth's new books and, uh, and I had this was, and I was the speaker at that moment and I was talking about different things.

I was like, wouldn't it be great if we could just ask the author some questions? Like, and I threw it some question and then like the voice of God over the PA, Seth starts talking back to us in real time and people were like, is this a recording? What's going on? And then they realize, oh my gosh, this is really Seth.

And. Uh, it was a really fun moment. And, um, in that conversation and since then I've heard him say it over and over again in a number of contexts. And I wonder if he said it for the first time in this moment, but who knows, you know, Seth's a smart guy. He probably has been saying it for years. But he, uh, he was talking about fear and the craving.

It was a group of entrepreneurs who had gathered and we're talking about how scary it is to be an entrepreneur and especially in creative work.

And His response was basically like, your job is not get rid of fear. Long dramatic pause. Your job is to learn how to dance with it. And it was a very kind of Seth ism.

Uh, and, but there's no doubt what he was talking about. What he was talking about was like, you can't get rid of the hard thing, but your job is to understand that because it's hard, understand the nature of what hard things are and learn how to, if you can't delete it, Work with it, leverage it, use it as a, as a pivot point to get more of what you want out of life.

If it's not going away, learn how to create tension with it, compression with push it back against it. Not cause you're going to beat it. That's a finite game. You want to play the infinite game. You want to get into a game where you can persist even as it persists, whether you prefer it or not. And in time what you'll discover is you're going to prefer it.

That actual stress is a gift. It's a training ground. It's a means by which you get stronger. It's a means by which you stay awake. It's a means by which you can actually do loving things for people because you have a capacity to do things that most of your neighbors don't because they've not practiced.

So if you can find a way to dance with it, almost like tango partners dancing, like have you ever seen like really good tango? Like, there's just, there's just, it's amazing. Like, how do they know? And they're always like in lockstep and every kind of move. And, and, uh, you know, one night of dancing with the stars, you know what I'm talking about.

And, and, and it's just incredible. And, um, I've never given much thought to it, but even the evolution of someone on Dancing with the Stars, when a non professional is learning to dance with a professional, you can see the evolution. Like, you can take ground quickly in your capacity to create the tension I'm describing.

And what happens?

You become dancers. dancers You develop a capacity to do something you couldn't do before. And it's amazing. And it's why tension is good news if your interest is transformation. And without it, there's nothing to push against. You're just kind of going with it. And you can't get stronger if, you know, I'm a, I'm a CrossFit athlete.

I go into the gym, I try to get up against that pull up bar. If I don't learn how to live with the tension or create tension actively, I'm not gonna, not gonna get above it. And that's, that's the gold if your interest is to get stronger, to become the kind of person who can do that.

So, I, I think it's a really important, you know, Question is relevant with all these things, like New Year's resolutions, where's the tension?

Uh, 75 hard, you know, big leaps, I can see tension, but it's so short term. Um, hyper support, where's the tension? Uh, you know, hope, where's the tension? Like we, you need tension. It's critical. And I think it's one of the quick ways to kind of litmus test one of the tools you're doing. It's like, okay, where's the tension?

And if I can find tension, then there's a chance for growth. And we'll, is that tension going to persist in a way that I can sustain with it and grow over a lifetime? That's a different question. But you want that tension in play if you want growth.

Mm hmm. Man, I mean, my, my mind is just like flooded with a thousand metaphors.

It's like the sailor, they're not hoping for no wind at all. They need the wind to move forward. Yeah, they need that. That's exactly right. Or, or think about, you know, right. Like, you know, I'm teaching my, my son to ride a bike right now. And, you know, it's almost easier to pedal faster and go long and hard.

Like. in a straight line. Yes. It, it versus sitting still, but like you become a better cyclist, you become, you gain better balance when you can learn to go slow and fast and navigate that. Um, so again, that tension is so, so important.

Yeah. I'm so glad you referenced the bike thing at the end, because that there is a thing called balance and it does exist in the world of humans.

But it's, it's a lag metric. It's not a lead. The lead metric is tension. The lag metric is, Hey, look, they're balanced, but you don't go for balance. You go for tension. If that's what you're looking for.

Man. I think one of the, one of the ways that we can seek this relief, like you were saying, like people look, they don't want balance.

They don't want tension, they want relief. One of the ways that we can do that is by moving the target or, or as you know, we talk about lowering the bar or one of the, your favorite things to say, which is so, so helpful for me is, you know, throw the dart and paint the bullseye around it. Like, I just love that.

Cause I see that a lot, um, in my own life and, uh, where I have Kind of seen that stagnation or that drift, but I think a lot of people do this like with good intentions yeah, or seeking some of that relief or Looking for self confidence or whatever it is

Well, let's get into whatever it is because I do think it's so common, right?

It's this It's this phenomenon of I think a lot of it is like, I want to, I don't want to look the fool. I don't want to, I don't want to be ashamed. I want to, I'm going to, in this world, if you're not accomplishing something and you have proof of it, then where are you? You know? And it's like, I'm, you know, I'm tired and I'm sick and it'd be just so much easier to paint the bullseye.

Or like, I remember when I was a kid, like, uh, my brother had a Rubik's cube and, he was talking on the phone with his girlfriend, and I took this Rubik's Cube and took all the stickers off and put the stickers in the spot and Showed my brother look I did it and I did do something. You know, but I didn't solve the Rubik's Cube and It's it's striking to me how Cheating and getting away with it Again, has this kind of honestly, like kind of a short term benefit, but it's one of those things where it's like, how is it that I'm decades older than that moment?

And I still remember cheating with the Rubik's cube. Like that's, that's sticking with me. Like that's the longterm impact of like, where we know at some level we weren't, we didn't actually hit the bullseye. We didn't do the thing. We didn't even try to do the thing. We spent more energy in some cases painting the new dartboard than it would have taken to have just learned the algorithm to get the Rubik's Cube done.

And, and I think, and by the way, I've since learned how to do the Rubik's Cube. Hey, there we go. And, and it's pretty darn fun. I have a hunch you can probably do it too. Um, but, uh, it's, it was very redemptive. To go through the burden of trying to figure out how to do this whole thing. And, um, I, I want to acknowledge though, again, that because there's so many cultural pressures to, to perform, to show your work, to pretend like to have done a thing, uh, whether it's your resume on LinkedIn or your, um, you know, the ways that you're characterizing, you know, putting your best foot, best foot forward.

I get why people do that because the culture is built for that. Um, but what we're talking about, we're, we're trying to find vehicles to actually become the actual article, the real deal. And isn't that what everyone craves? Like to have others and for yourself, more importantly, to say to yourself, like I'm the real deal and, uh, to be the genuine article.

And my sense is that's what people are, are craving, um, in their world. They don't have to be You know, the world's greatest, uh, in comparison to everybody else, but they want to be, I want to be the most true me that's available. And the vehicle to get that can't just be maintaining appearances, just can't.

Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .

And so I think of folks like who, uh, we have our dear friend, uh, who, whose name I won't you, you'll know, but I won't reference, uh, just 'cause I don't wanna indict and, uh, and has confessed this dynamic where. Uh, she was a remarkable athlete and then fast forward to a different season in her life and she called herself an athlete.

And then if you looked at her behavior in her life, she was no longer an athlete. She used to be an athlete. She wasn't currently an athlete. And when invited to consider that as a possibility, it felt like it stung for a second, but it actually was the opening, the compression, the tension that invited her to become an athlete anew.

today, day one. And, uh, and as you know, part of our community, that's normal, right? Like we're on the hunt to find out where the gaps are in our lives so that we can begin to apply our modality and the direction of real transformation to become the actual thing that, that we're craving. And I think that when you consider that particular option, Uh, I, I just, I've, I've kid like,

it's just such a tough world that we live in, uh, that it appears as though some people are rewarded for maintaining appearances for painting the dark board.

And they might be, honestly, they might be, but it's still not worth it because they know They know deep down that like, this is what breeds that kind of low level internal fractured confidence that, uh, remarkable, it's so remarkably thick, like solvable, uh, so quickly, but it takes so much courage. I think to be real with where are we actually today and no matter like throw the dart, no matter where it lands, 10 feet from the board, now you got your plot point A and you know your direction.

Plot point B is 10 feet away and, and, and, and now, now you have a practice, like now you get now the work, the good work, the tension, the dancing with the fear, the, the finding the means by which we become, that is the magic and do that in community. Like you're doing it on your own, but doing that in the context of a collective, that's one of the most special things you could ever do in a lifetime. regardless of what your ambition is of who you want to become.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that tension between, you know, the, the community solo effort is a really important one and we'll certainly unpack it in a, in a, in another episode, but there's those two dynamics to the throwing the dart, the, and painting the bullseye around it.

We do that almost to protect ourselves or to kind of like reassure ourselves or like, no, it's okay. Like. We did something and you know reassuring yourself and you know, right seeking to not feel shame is not a bad thing

That's exactly right. I think it's gonna be an environment where you're not consistently shamed.

I think that's a really good idea.

Yes, but so we don't only do that for others Maybe you know, like you're talking about like our resumes and things like that, but we also do that for ourselves but that does represent an interesting dynamic where You we need to find that balance between kind of that.

We don't want to be this lone ranger out there going solo. And we also don't want to be, you know, just hitching our whatever to this caravan and not having any kind of individual agency and autonomy or can't operate or survive solo on our, on our own. Um, which is, I think those two extremes, you know, I come from a design and art background and, There's this, this whole ideal about the starving artist, the, the, you know, I'm an island unto myself and it's almost celebrated.

Like you're saying the Marlboro man, like this, this romantic, romantic idea of going solo. Um, and then there's also this over indexing on community. Uh, so like, how do we, how do we find that tension there? Again, we'll unpack this more, but I want a quick Dane Sanders hot take on that.

Yeah, I, I think it's, I think it's important to recognize that some people are, first of all, wired for more individuated work versus collective work.

You know, the, the team player in junior high sports versus the skateboarder in junior high, you know, and, and some people are a little both, but, you know, whatever. But I, I think, um, beyond our personalities and our preferences, um, There are atomic level units here. So the individual participating actively with the tension created is a means for that individual to grow.

And then the environment that they do that in can have a profound impact on their ability to do that. The likelihood of that happening. Um, you think of like, uh, cultural norms and, uh, inequalities among certain people groups in our world and how, um, I was listening to Adam Grant's new book about hidden possibilities recently and he talks about this, these chess teams, um, and how, uh, I forget Josh's last name, but that the searching for Bobby Fisher guy in the school, he came from Dalton.

I think this was like, they started, uh, by the time you were in grade one, you were doing a year of chess, uh, and you learned the game of chess in kindergarten. And then, you know, by the time you were in sixth grade, uh, you know, they, they had these like. Grandmasters coming out of their schools over time, and they had won three national championships in a row.

And the story is so remarkable because this, um, other grandmaster, who happened to be a person of color, led a team from Harlem Junior High School 43. Uh, I think half a dozen African Americans, one Asian American, and one, um, I don't know if it was Polynesian or something, and, uh, they, uh, they won. Uh, they went to the, you know, this big tournament and took on the, you know, the big wigs.

And the reason that story is interesting is because there are haves and have nots in certain communities. It's, it is easier, uh, there's less to overcome in certain contexts. And we'd be naive to suggest that's not true. I'm a privileged man, uh, just because of the color of my skin. Um, and there's days where I just, I, I recognize how.

unequal that is and it's not right. And, and there's other contexts where I don't have that privilege, you know. And, um, so, so all of those, uh, considerations aside, I think it's worth acknowledging them and then pausing and saying at the end of the day, it's still an individual. Who is deciding what is going to happen, but the, the individuals that find the best tension, the best traction, the best chance of becoming, they tend to gather with other individuals who are also committed to those things.

And they're doing them shoulder to shoulder there. This is where the apprentice model is so powerful, right? Like when people, someone learns a trade, well, you could learn it from a book kind of, but where you really want to learn it is shoulder to shoulder with another trades person and, and learn the craft.

By doing learn the craft by being bad at it and committing to being bad at it for a time until you're not bad Until you find another part of that trade where you're gonna be bad again, and then this is the cycle of getting better so Um, and by the way, just a quick nod on that. I do think folks are listening to this.

If this is compelling, they should go back and check out our credo episode, because I think that can be really helpful to understand those stages of, of becoming as well. But it is, it's a dance for as long as philosophers have been thinking about these ideas, you know, Russo and others talk at lock and others talking about the individual and the collective, and, um, there's a, there's a tension in that for sure.

But I, the most helpful way I've thought about it up until now has been, it still begins with an individual looking for a community that are committed to the same, are in the same direction of what they want. And as they align with that, there'll be people who are more skilled and less skilled, and each will progress as they stay in the practice of moving forward.

And there is individual responsibility, and if you really want to give yourself your best shot out of it. Uh, do that with other individuals who are after the same thing.

Dane Sanders: Men and women of discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone but keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that or if you want to find out for yourself you can find us at mwod.io. the information and material that we're sharing both of this podcast or anything connected to men or women of discomfort or flying s incorporated it's all for general information purposes only you should not rely on this material or information on this podcast as a basis for making any kind of decision.

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Thanks.