Ep. 192 FINAL

And I think you guys know, for me, it's always important that I'm finding practitioners or speakers who take a much more integrative, holistic approach and, and now as I pursue depth psychology, also take a more soulful, spiritual approach to the work they're doing. And this conversation with Keelia was everything I could have hoped for and more on this topic.

She found the plant medicine path and studied integration going on to study under medicine carriers and work at retreat centers all over the world. Today, she bridges the gap for people in recovery from addiction and trauma to work with plant medicine in a safe, sacred, and intentional way, and recognize that they are their own best healer.

I was such a novice when it came to this topic. I really have not done any, any form of research into plant medicine. So I really needed Alea to walk me through what even what, what plants are even part of plant medicine when we're talking about this. And so we talk about a number of different healing plants and, but what I loved about this is it was so much more than just, yeah, take this thing and have this benefit.

Plant medicines in an intentional and sacred way, honoring the traditions that they came from. These are not new. Many of these are coming from ancient, ancient indigenous traditions and the importance of being able to understand and honor that and use these in a sacred, intentional way. So please enjoy this conversation with Keelia.

Intentional and authentic and sacred, and I'm so excited to get your lens on that. But before we dive into all of that, let's start with a little bit of your origin story. You know, what maybe led you to plant medicine, how you found it impactful for you. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much. And I'm so excited to dive into all of that as well.

Is this all that there is? Mm-hmm. Um, and being stagnant with my, my. Trauma healing really. I think the recovery piece I had taken care of, but the trauma healing was something I needed more for and EMDR and all of the holistic avenues I was searching, um, in like meditation retreats and mindfulness and everything I could find, um, nothing seemed to really touch the way that I felt about who I was from the trauma.

Yeah. Well I love that and I think it is something, something you'll find is, I'm so nuanced in the way I approach this. I, I work with the unconscious mind and I think depth psychology is not, I think I know depth psychology is so spiritual and soul based and I kind of like to call it the holistic psychology 'cause it's just looking at everything together and on a much deeper level.

And so that's why I'm so excited. It kind of sounds like that's what plant medicine was for you. You had tried so many other resources and not that they maybe aren't the perfect resource for someone else, but plant medicine was that big missing piece for you, it sounds like. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's really important.

Um, you know, I had come to plant medicine as a teenager. I discovered, um, psychedelics and at that time coming to plant medicine. This was before kind of my awakening. It wasn't the right time and I wasn't ready. And so on that same thread, you know, I think that such big spiritual healing modalities like plant medicine and some other really activating, you know, things that are out there.

I had to come to them from a really, um, grounded place where I, yeah, reworked my entire relationship with them and really made sure that I was incorporating sacredness and, and ritual and all of the really good things that can support this further. But that's gonna look different for each person. Yeah, that's what I'm really excited to talk about that sacred piece a little bit.

I think especially because you just, things become trendy and there's certain plant medicines that have become very trendy that I think the sacredness has maybe been taken out of them a little bit. So I'm excited to talk about that a little bit more. But I actually think a place, at least a place I need to start, because this is so new to me, is what even falls under the umbrella of plant medicine.

Yeah, totally. And I think that everyone's approach to what plant medicines are right for them is going to be different to recognizing we're all individual beings. And so some things might be appropriate for some people and not for others. Um, but really anything I, I'm, I'm using the term plant medicine because I feel like it is a, um, accessible term that most a lot of people understand.

Scarier mushrooms or, um, you know, different sacred brews from the, the jungle and the Amazon, um, such as ayahuasca, Nipah, um, also known as yhe. So there are all sorts of plants in the world and to cover really all of them I don't think is even enough for an entire series on a podcast. Um, but uh, yeah, there are so many different plans that can be medicines.

And I think that's the differentiator when we say plant medicine is allowing this medicine to heal our bodies through that spiritual connection versus, um, you know, just taking a substance just, you know, like, I'm gonna take this microdose as a pill. Um, you know, incorporating in the sacred is kind of part of the medicine of plant medicines and plant teachers.

Yeah, I, I would imagine so. And I think it makes such a difference, not just in the way it's consumed, but in the way it interacts with your body is looking at it in this sacred way and. Yeah. I just, I think I get that so deeply. I think depth psychology is very much in that same realm of, it's not just like, let's get in the mind and rip out all the repressed anger.

And so maybe what we can even go into is on this piece of the sacred, what does it look like when we're saying this? What does it look like to engage with and utilize plant medicine, sort of, um, flippantly and unintentionally versus using it in the really sacred way. Totally. Yeah. So let's, let's dissect that a little bit.

And I think it's important to remember that there are different lineages to this, right? So there's, there are the herbalists and people here that have been stewarding the earth. There are Native American traditions, there are all sorts of different traditions, um, where people are utilizing plant medicine in a sacred way.

Um, you know, just adding rose petals to your teeth throughout the day. But there is a communication that can happen and we have to open ourselves up to receive it. Mm-hmm. And so just to give you some, um, you know. Uh, an idea of what this can look like or what it would look like in a more indigenous setting.

Um, you know, in the Amazon they do these things called plant DTAs, which is where you're in isolation for multiple weeks and you are working with one plant and eating very simple foods throughout this entire time. You have no screens. You're just in the jungle with a bug net, um, alone, and you're there to communicate with these plants.

You can. Practice this for a few weeks while working with one specific herb. It can be a psychoactive or a non-psychoactive herb. Um, and really start to see how, how is this medicine speaking to me? You know, through your dreams, through your journaling, um, through just conscious connection with the plant, through placing some of that plant on your altar, whatever ways that you want to really connect deeply with that plant.

And thinking of it in that way. And if we were to approach it in that way, it's sort of like. You, you gave the example of Rose. Okay. I'm, I'm gonna hang out with Rose for a couple weeks and really allow Rose to be my mentor, my healer, and how does that change the way I interact with this thing? Rather than just like, you know what, I really want the benefits of Rose.

I'm gonna go buy some rose capsules and just pop those every morning with my morning breakfast. It's, I am gonna be in relationship with this, this substance and this being for the next couple weeks and, and be wanting to like intentionally absorb information through it physically. But also I think, you know, in depth psychology, we would say through it kind of psychically and through the collective unconscious, what is Rose offering, communicating, sharing, et cetera.

Absolutely. And you know, I really think that that is a part of my ethos and why this is such a powerful, um, tool for me and in my own healing. There are many practitioners out there, um, you know, who are serving medicine more of the psycho psychoactive types, but, um, there are many practitioners out there who are on that path and they're, um, not fully in integrity and they're, you know, causing harm.

We are our own best healers. And so when we can work with these plants as an ally to that healing, then we're not alone in that and we're not holding that alone. And so that's really what I think is so powerful about these practices. Mm-hmm. Can you talk a little bit more, you, you spoke to this for a second, I should have asked this a few minutes ago.

Yeah. And first of all, that's huge. What. Courageous step to make, to follow your intuition, to follow those nudges despite these repercussions. But that, even that tells me even more that there was something there that was so aligned and nourishing for you that was worth that break. Yeah, totally. And so there, there are different, uh, even levels to the thinking with aa and it's very, uh, dependent on where you live.

Uh, for example, within the United States, they're very open to microdosing and things like that in California and that area. Um, but where I am in the Northeast, um, it, they're not open to that at all. And so I actually was asked to step down from all my service positions. I was on a, you know, a, a chapter that was creating new sober homes for folks.

Um, they say to stay away from those, you know. Um, and I think that for me, um, I struggled with chronic illness and I didn't want to go to big pharma. I didn't wanna go to the doctor for my solution. I had had, you know, in, in the past as a teenager, I was prescribed opiates without ever being told, you know, what the, the downsides to being prescribed opiates at such a young age was.

And so I tend to stay away from, from, I, like, I would much prefer to work with something more herbal and to make it into a spiritual practice is even better. So I took an herbalism course, which does not at all make me an herbalist. I think it's a lifelong path. Um, but I took an herbalism course before, um, you know, I started to microdose and I, I stepped away from AA and made that transition.

But it definitely was a calling, and I think that's something people talk about is hearing a call to some of those bigger, um, plant medicines. And it's important to wait for that, for that call and to not just explore some of these things just to see what it's like. You know, I think there's, there's a, a connection that happens.

Let me try it. And, and that's more of where it's coming from rather than a deep, like, I am needing some deep opening with something and I'm feeling called to try this thing. And I, I like that you pointed that out because, you know, on the one hand, I, I do think we need to take the initiative to go, if I'm not finding the right resources for me, it's my responsibility to go out and explore and see if I can find the ones.

But again, kind of bringing it back to that, like what you're making me think of for myself is if and when I were to try a particular plant medicine, I think it would be with a very clear intention of, you know what, here's this particular thing that I'm stuck on that I wanna work through. I'm gonna take that to this ceremony with the intention of, you know, working through that with this, with this medicine.

And, you know, they tend to have a more challenging time too. Um, because that intention can be that anchor where it's not comfortable to be in these spaces. It's not, it's not comfortable. It's not, you know, fun. Um, it can be pleasurable and fun sometimes. Most of the time it's not. And so to be in those spaces, if you don't have, uh, a deep intention that you're anchored into, you can feel really lost and just sort of like drift around in, in, in the, the collective unconscious space.

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So check the link in the show notes to learn more about Jacob and try their bars. Well, to that end, something that's on my mind as a practitioner, but just also as someone you know, interested in your journey is, is there a time and a place where you, when you're working with someone in recovery, is it sort of blanketly like this is great for everyone?

I think I already know the answer to this, but I wanna dive into it more. Anyone in recovery should try plant medicine? Or are you able to go, here's, here's that particular subgroup of people in recovery who this might be really powerful for, and that it's not a blanket thing. It's sort of like, you know what?

Yeah. And so, um, I think it's really important when we're reclaiming this, you know, new way of health. This, this very intuitive, I'm gonna listen to my body. I'm gonna be deeply connected and in control of my, you know, my entire healing journey. Um, with something like, like these medicines. Um, I think it's really important for us to, to.

Remember that it, it, that's the other party that is supporting us in this is like our own intuition and really checking in with ourselves. Um, particularly for people in recovery, a lot of people are really drawn to cannabis as a plant medicine, which can be such a powerful tool for people who have chronic pain.

When we're bringing in that intention, bringing in ritual. We're journaling. We're getting into a sacred, um, embodiment practice like yoga or stretching or dancing. Um, it can be a really powerful plant, but it's not for everyone. And particularly people in recovery. Some people have it. Work really, really well in their lives, and they come to Plant Ally recovery because they can't talk about it in aa.

And so if you work with her too much, then she gets sticky in your brain and slows you down. So it's really important to be listening. Love that, and finding that balance. And so, um, you know, that's a plant that can be, can be challenging for a lot of people. One of the trickiest ones to form a healthy relationship with for people in recovery.

It is possible. I have a great relationship with cannabis, but it's not for everyone. I would say the more accessible, like if someone is like, I really wanna try something, is microdosing of any. Type, so that would be a sub perceptual dose. So ideally you won't feel any effects at all. It's something that happens over time by, um, you know, working in the default mode network of your brain and helping you to have that increased neuroplasticity so that you can change habits that were once really challenging to change.

Sometimes, you know, we don't have to have these deep challenging experiences. We can also learn how to heal in that, in that gentle, um, microdose kind of practice way. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There's so many sub-questions coming up with this. One is, to me, and this is just my perspective, if it was me interested in these, I, I wouldn't feel comfortable just starting to experiment on my own.

It seems like a good place to start. But to that end, a couple things I want to point out or, or get your feedback on. 'cause yeah, the difference between, it's highlighting how broad plant medicine is. There's, there's microdosing where it's just super subtle and gentle and these slow changes over time. And then there's maybe these more intense activating experiences that are maybe more acute experiences that you go into much less often to facilitate deeper sort of metabolizing and healing.

But if you don't go into it with that mindset, it, it might be really jarring. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think it's really important for people to recognize that with any of these psychoactive medicines, integration is almost more important than working with the medicines themselves. And integration starts with pre-integration starts with preparing for the experience, even microdosing to have some time to prepare for, you know, a month to three month journey where you're going to be actively working on something.

You have to get your life set up in order to do that. And so, um. Yeah, I think that it is really important to have guidance, uh, and I feel like part of my mission here on Earth is to help people who are going to do it anyway, feel like they have, um, some good guidance. And so I actually have some free resources for any listeners.

You know, I have teachers that I have learned a lot of these things from, from all across the world and it's really important for me to go to those teachers when I get stuck. And so I think it is really helpful for us to not totally give our power away to the other people. 'cause there are a lot of people out there who are doing this work.

Who, yeah. Um. Claim to have answers that they don't actually have. But I think it's important to, to make sure that we have someone we can ask questions of and also practice that deep listening to my own intuition. And that's, that's a practice. It doesn't come immediately. And so it's important to, yeah, to take those journeys one step at a time.

And of course this is acknowledging that this is not saying all AA groups across all of America are missing these pieces, but what do you feel like, you know, often that is what's missing for them, that then plant medicine helps support. Yeah, so I think it's important to, uh, to acknowledge here that actually with aa, a lot of the original AA members actually had their spiritual awakening while under the influence of the bead donna treatment, which was a psychoactive, psychedelic plant medicine.

And today, you know, we don't. Acknowledge that, and we say no, any psychoactive mind altering substance is not okay, and it's abstinence based. Um, and so, yeah, that, that's one thing I just wanted to mention. First of all, because I'm a big fan of aa, I think that, um, there's a lot of things in the original literature that is so good.

You know, it's very universal. It's not, um, it's open to all, it talks about, you know, doing your shadow work and looking within yourself and cleaning up your side of the street, making amends, being of service. Um, all of these things are great, but there is a social construct within communities that changes from place to place.

Saying things like, you know, uh, that there's just one way. And I think that that's really the black and white thinking is the thing that really gets in the way. Um, because everyone is different. And some people might require medically assisted, you know, harm reduction treatments like Suboxone, um, and some people might not.

And it's not fair for someone to say, your recovery is wrong and my recovery is right. Um, and so I think that's really the biggest thing. Also this concept of being powerless, uh, I think is another thing that I personally really struggled with. And I know a lot of people, um, in plant Alled recovery also have struggled with because, um.

And so, um, yeah, I just think that aa, it's not trauma informed either. That's a big, um, piece that I struggle with. Um, I think that it needs an update and unfortunately, um, you know, that I don't think the update will come quickly enough with the way that the structure is set up. It's so huge now that, um, you know, little tiny changes take years and years and years to make.

But this idea that the, it seems like the main narrative is you can't trust yourself. You will never be able to trust yourself. So you always need to be kind of having like a strong arm on this part of yourself. And if this, you know, this was me in my practice, what I would say is, what part of me is that addict self?

Is that a fearful part? Is that an angry part? And what do I need to do to repair my relationship with that part? What does that part need to express? What are the limiting beliefs that part is holding onto? But to that end, a completely different narrative of repair can happen with that part rather than this is a part that needs to be exiled and caged forever.

And, you know, a lot of these plants also have physical healing capabilities, um, that are incredibly powerful. Um, amanita mascara, for example, can help to heal your, our brains, um, after a benzo addiction. Uh, and ABO can help reset our brains after an opiate addiction. And so we have these psychoactive plants that.

Are here and can physically help us with recovery. But then mentally with that additional work, the one thing I think is really important to note is that it's not a magic bullet or a magic pill. You know, you work with plant medicine in that intentional way as we've been talking about, and you need to do that integration work, which might take outside support, it might take, you know, a community, um, it might take a lot more than what you're able to do very quickly.

But to that end, in doing a little bit of research on that, there are places that are just. Doing ketamine, no therapists, no one really there except like the staff who's gonna inject the ketamine or do the IV and then they send you on your way and that's it. And then there's places that you know, have therapists.

You're doing a session before, you're doing a therapy session after. And that I think is what you're speaking to of that integration. But can we lean into that more of why that is so important? Especially maybe when we're doing more of these, like acute, I don't know if you would call them, maybe journeys, not treatments.

I'm, I'm just thinking of a recent one For me, um, a message coming through during medicine was how, you know, I don't drink enough water and don't, I'm not hydrated. And so an active integration practice to that, um, for me was to buy a water bottle holder. So I didn't have an excuse not to be hydrated, you know, so, um, that, that's, that's an example of like what, what integration can look like, but they're so, they can get so deep and so nuanced.

Um, and let myself know that I was always there for myself and that I was always, you know, walking hand in hand in a protector. And in doing that, it reheal some of the patternings I had around for myself. It was, you know, uh, sex and intimacy. All of a sudden, those, those walls that were up were gone after this one experience because I had had the ability to almost go back in time and rewire, uh, myself from that experience.

And so, you know, these experiences can have these sort of light things happen, these really intense, uh, things happen. I've had conversations with people who have passed on and had grief healing, um, as a result. So it really depends on what, uh, it is that you're working through and that's gonna determine the integration.

And then the post, uh, ceremony and the post journey time, uh, that integration is really about, um, staying true to those practices. There are things that can help in modalities like breath work that can help you to remain connected to the spirit of the medicine in your, in your journey afterwards, um, and really take aligned action.

And so, um, you know, when we boil integration into applied action, aligned action, um, and living life is a ceremony, I think that they're always the best results there. Something I use myself often and recommend to clients often too, is the Apollo Neuro wearable device. This is a wearable device that helps regulate the nervous system, has been proven to increase.

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They have won so many awards for this product and I feel like there's a million more things I could say about it. So I'll encourage you guys to check the show notes below for a link to learn more about the product. I also have a discount code below. Yeah, the imagery that's coming to me as you're talking is, you know, not integrating is sort of like if you go to this beautiful plant nursery and you buy a bunch of beautiful flower bushes and you take them home, but then you just leave them sitting on the table.

They never got integrated so that they could then kind of continue to grow and blossom and bloom on their own. Exactly. Yeah, that is exactly what it's like. I've heard it also be talked about like having open heart surgery or open brain surgery, you know that the medicine goes in and does this open heart surgery, and if you don't do the work to really make sure that that heals the way that it needs to, then, you know, the, the healing won't happen.

Um, and so, yeah, it really is the most important part of the, the deep, you know, um, psychedelic medicine work, but even for other types of spiritual experiences that can be activating and life shifting, I think an integration practice around them to allow those shifts and upgrades to continue, um, and stay with us is important.

The small little shifts you're noticing and, you know, observing, continuing to go back into dialogue with some of the things that came up. But yeah, this steady, like I might've had a massive epiphany during a certain plant medicine experience, but continuing to tend with and be in relation with that epiphany or that insight or that download.

For different types of particular addictions and recovery from particular addictions. Do you notice that there are specific plant medicines that tend to be a great starting point? You already mentioned a couple, but for example, you know, in what you've seen over the years, for someone who might be recovering from alcohol addiction, is there a particular plant medicine that you're like, I do tend to see this one being a really great place to start, specifically for that?

And, and maybe not. Maybe you're just like, it's not really related to the substance they're addicted to, it's more about their personality. But that's a question I wanted to ask. Yeah. Um, in, in my experience, it really depends on the person. Like I said, there are certain medicines that have been known to, you know, help more with specific addictions.

Like, these aren't always fun, especially for that type of thing. It's not a fun journey. Um, uh. And that can be a really powerful one, but not everyone is called to that medicine. So it really depends on the person. Um, just to kind of go over, uh, you know, Amina mascara has been showing amazing things for alcohol and benzo withdrawal and for helping to reset the, the brain after a dependence.

Um. On your own, uh, that you're nurturing and, and creating that connection with on your own. Um, but also they're safe too. They're relatively safe. Relatively few contraindications, I think. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna get this number right. So, but I think that in, it was like in the year 2022, like four people, uh, went into the hospital for psilocybin related, um, you know, emergencies, four people in the whole year in the us um, something like that.

And so, yeah, it's, it's important to recognize that, like, and those are all also for psychological, you know, issues and not for, for physical. So I think that that's a really great starting place just because of how safe and accessible, uh, that medicine is. Um, but I think with everything, you know, you need a guide.

Hmm. Um, and so yeah, that can be incredibly healing. The medicine that I've worked with the most is Ayahuasca. Um, and that has been a really powerful one for me, um, for my healing. But there have been many medicines that I've worked with as well outside of that. Um. That have also just been little like pieces that have helped me along in my journey.

And so these different medicines can be thought of as just tools that we have and allies and teachers, um, that can support us. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised kind of talking about plant medicine again as there, if we think of each plant as a person, as a wise, you know, healer, just like we have people in our lives who it's like, oh, my mom is the one I go to for that.

You know, deep emotional support. And then my dad is the one I go to when I want, like, really good logistical insight. I could see plant medicine being the same way where it's like the, the plant person of Ayahuasca, you know, his strong suit is supporting you in blank this way. And then the plant medicine of psilocybin, he, oh, he's such a good one when you need this type of input and.

And so we already sort of have this. This hierarchy, um, wi you know, within, within tradition. But it is, it is a lot that way. You know, um, ayahuasca, she's stern with you. She's like, she tells you what you need. She's sweet and loves you as well, but is like a stern old grandmother, um, in her lessons. Um, and sometimes she puts you through the ringer and you're like, all right, I just have to surrender, you know?

Not that it's the end all be all, but at least a starting template that people can work from. And then I wanna talk more about plan Allied your. Your membership and what you're offering there, what you're doing there, how that's supporting people. But if you could give us a little bit of a template, just if someone's listening and they're like, you know what?

I'm not quite ready to dive in deep to some of these bigger experiences. I wanna start with Microdosing. I wanna do it intentionally and with sacredness, but I have no idea what that looks like. What, what might that look like? Yeah. Um, so really I think that the, the Microdosing workbook, I highly recommend looking at it because this is more shown in diagrams and there's a lot more information in it.

Um, and that one can be really intense, but it's best for reprogramming. And so if you are trying to change a really stubborn habit, then that would be a protocol that I'd recommend. There's also the vitamins, which I think is great for beginners. And that's one day where you microdose and then three days off, one day on, three days off.

And so you wanna make sure no matter what, that you're not just taking these micro doses every day, that you're really giving your brain that opportunity to integrate. Even though it's sub perceptual, you wanna make sure that you're giving yourself lots of spaciousness. Um, my favorite way to microdose is now that I have a little bit of a relationship is more intuitive.

Um, you're asking, you know, in a, in a journal, you're asking the mushrooms to speak through you and to you and show you what you need to. See, and just allowing your pen or pencil to let whatever comes through, come through. Um, and yeah, to really hold your intention, there's lots of different ways that you can also, um, you know, help yourself stay true to that.

Just simple things like, um, you know, putting it in your awareness, having a sticky note right there next to your micro doses of what it is that you're trying to change, you know, affirmations, there's so many different ways. Um, but really, uh, that's, that's what I would start with is intention. Um, you know, bringing in that ritual of a prayer.

So tell us a little bit more about, is it Plant Allied Recovery? Is that the full name? Yes. Okay. Tell us about this. What are you doing here? Who is this for? Yeah, totally. So, um. Uh, to me it's really important that people have this information. Um, there can, as I sort of briefly mentioned, there can be harm, uh, that can be caused in these spaces.

And people looking for healing are often going to untrained people. There's not a lot of regulation in this space, uh, the plant medicine world. And so I think that it's really important for that vital harm reduction to be out there to the people. And so I've created, um, a free course and also a free community for people in recovery from both addiction and trauma.

And then I also do a guide training. So that's kind of like a combination of, um, psychedelic integration, co coaching, um, recovery coaching, and a sort of trip sitting course in there as well. I'll tied in with a trauma-informed training, um, to help people who wanna support people in recovery, uh, to know how to do so, and to know how to do so well in a way that's not gonna cause harm and is going to be supportive and put that person first.

Is it you're, you're actually guiding them through things or it's more these people are kind of off in their own doing, doing different things, maybe even with different practitioners and then they come into this group to then discuss and integrate what's coming up? Yeah, so it's a, it's a. 40 plus video, self-paced integration course that people can go through at their own time.

I love it. Anything else? Because, because I'm so new to this topic, anything else that we didn't cover that you feel like, Ooh, I really want to make sure people know this or hear this, or kind of have it on their radar? Yeah, actually, um, one thing that I think is really important to include, uh, in this topic is a cultural appropriation.

Um, I think it's really important to let people know too, that there are people who have been protecting these medicines for thousands of years and stewarding these medicines well. And that as sort of this psychedelic boom is happening and plant medicine boom is happening, um, that we just have to be mindful of, of that and to recognize and honor, um, in the best possible way, the traditions that these medicines came from.

So I think it's just important always to, um, try to also honor the earth in this, like as a way to give back to Mama Earth when you're looking for different plants and sourcing, um, to go to the right places to look locally first and see if that, um, and see if that is something that is available to you.

One is I think this idea of reciprocity and it's making me think of, um, Robin Kim's book, braiding Sweetgrass, and just this idea of reciprocity and not just taking even in the sense of like this, this entity, this medicine is giving. I am coming to it and asking for something. What am I giving in return?

And what I might give in return is the intentionality around where I source that and how I use it and how I honor the indigenous cultures that comes from. Absolutely. And so engaging in reciprocity in all ways. But the two questions that brings up for me. One is, and again, I know there's so much nuance, it's hard to just answer these outright, but when it comes to sourcing and as someone who knows nothing about this, when it comes to sourcing, are there some very specific companies or brands that you can suggest right off the bat?

Ayahuasca or psilocybin, you know, what, what should I look for in, in how they're running it and how they're facilitating it. Are there some really clear red flags that you're like, if this is kind of what you're seeing, maybe steer clear. Yeah. So, um, those are really great questions. Um, the first. The first question, uh, you asked about sourcing and are there some good things to look for?

The plants react to that. And so the, the most medicinally potent plant for you is going to be the one that grows in your backyard or near you. Um, and so that's what I would say to that in terms of, um, you know, there are a lot of things out there right now that say microdosing, uh, available online that you can find.

Um, and a lot of them are not good. Um, a lot of them. Have, um, what's called four A-C-O-D-M-T, which is, uh, something that's supposed to mimic psilocybin or psilocin. Um, and so it's important to, to really be careful with those sort of like the gas station microdose gummies. If it says like, magic mushrooms and you can buy it somewhere, like it seems too, could be true.

And it's challenging because people looking for healing, um, you know, don't need to have that kind of roadblock. Pop up in front of them. So that's what I would suggest. I also would say stay away from in general, like gummies or anything where you can't tell, like what's in it to go for whole mushrooms if you're buying them somewhere.

Um, mm-hmm. And in terms of the, the practitioner's thing, um, I also have a whole, a whole course on vetting your medicine carrier. Um, but the, to sum it up, I think that the most important aspects, um, and that's all free too, by the way, that is part of the free course. If you wanna access that and look into it, I, I highly recommend it.

And if there's any sort of red flags, I would steer clear. Um, I also think different practitioners are better for different people. And so, you know, while some people might do what I do, which is travel to the jungle, to work with, uh, medicine carriers, they're not trauma informed over there. Um, you know, and so it's, it's not going to be the best place for a newcomer to go, even if it's the most authentic experience.

It's just people without enough experience. And I've witnessed that happen quite a bit. Um, and so yeah, it's really important for me to share that and help prevent that from continuing to happen. Yeah, I feel like for me, the biggest takeaway is just this is so nuanced and bio individual. And so more than anything, having that.

That kind of like touchpoint person, that practitioner like yourself that they can go to and say, Hey, Keelia, here's what I'm thinking about. What do you think about this? And be able to kind of have you as that touchpoint to bounce things off of, I think is so, so important. So thank you so much, Keelia. This was phenomenal.

So thank you.