Ralph Burns and Lauren Petrullo tackle some of the biggest misconceptions about Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) with industry expert Raphael Paulin-Daigle. They dig into why obsessing over conversion rates alone can backfire and why metrics like lifetime value (LTV) and average order value (AOV) matter more in the long run. The discussion also hits on how platforms like TikTok are shaking up the CRO space and what that means for modern businesses. Raphael shares his story of turning a passion for marketing as a teenager into a thriving career working with top DTC brands. Packed with examples and no-nonsense advice, this conversation pushes back on outdated thinking and offers actionable strategies for improving website performance and driving real business growth.

Chapters

• 00:00:00 – Meet Raphael: The Myth-Buster of CRO
• 00:00:21 – CRO Myths: Why Doubling Your Conversion Rate Isn’t That Simple
• 00:01:43 – From Fictional Marketing Plans to Real DTC Success
• 00:02:26 – Raphael’s Origin Story: Creativity Meets Data
• 00:08:01 – No Portfolio? No Problem: Landing Clients the Hard Way
• 00:13:53 – From Metrics to Mastery: The Real Evolution of CRO
• 00:20:57 – Wants vs. Needs: When Clients Get It Wrong
• 00:22:45 – The Conversion Rate Illusion: Why Numbers Lie
• 00:26:00 – Case Study: Turning Subscriptions Into Gold
• 00:29:33 – Breaking It Down: How to Communicate Results Without Confusion
• 00:35:35 – CRO in the TikTok Era: Quick Wins vs. Real Strategies
• 00:44:59 – Stay Connected: Raphael’s Tips for Long-Term Growth

LINKS AND RESOURCES:

• Raphael Paulin-Daigle on LinkedIn
• Raphael Paulin-Daigle on X
• SplitBase
• Landing Page Optimization: The Definitive Guide to Testing and Tuning for Conversions
• Tier 11 Jobs
• Perpetual Traffic on YouTube
• Tiereleven.com
• Mongoose Media
• Perpetual Traffic Survey
• Perpetual Traffic Website
• Follow Perpetual Traffic on Twitter
• Connect with Lauren on Instagram and Connect with Ralph on LinkedIn

Thanks so much for joining us this week. Want to subscribe to Perpetual Traffic? Have some feedback you’d like to share? Connect with us on iTunes and leave us a review!

Mentioned in this episode:

AdCritter for Agencies

Tier 11 Data Suite

Hello and welcome to the perpetual traffic podcast.

This is your host, Ralph burns, founder and CEO chair 11,

alongside my awesome cohost.

Lauren E.

Petruo, founder of Mongoose Media.

And we're going to be talking misconceptions of this word.

This word that everyone, I think misuses, but we're going to leave it

in the title of today's show, obviously, because everyone knows, if you've been

listening to the show, what conversion rate optimization actually is, it's CRO,

but it's so much more than that, Lauren, don't you find so many people are just

like, Oh, I, all I need is a better conversion rate on my site, and then if

I double my conversion rate, my business doubles, is it really that simple?

Lauren Lauren, or, my just on drugs.

I'm always going to say, it depends.

The safest words any marketer can ever say.

but there are some Dululu moments when.

An individual believes that one single item can make the world of difference.

At times it can happen.

It depends, of course.

But there are a lot more things that are being said that don't make

sense than are being implemented.

Yeah, well, at the end of the day, our, our job is to help

businesses make more money

and, spread their product to goods and services to the right types of people,

and hopefully have a positive effect on the world and in so doing profit from it.

So conversion rate optimization, I think has been, Like the term itself

has been misused through time.

So we're here today to smash, just break apart, explode, blow up those

misperceptions because we've got the founder and CEO of split base, Raphael

Paul and Dagle here as a guest on today's show of perpetual traffic to

dispel all those myths, the myth busting CRO guy, welcome to perpetual traffic.

Thank you so much.

I'm so excited to be here.

Well, I think we're going to.

Take a lot of CRO people off today and, which is fine.

why not?

I mean, it's not fun to, be in the middle of the road.

, you've been doing this for quite some time.

Actually, I didn't even ask you this.

Like how long have you been doing CRO?

Like, when did you start?

How did you start it?

How'd you get into it?

All that.

Yeah.

good question.

personally, I think I've been doing it for probably 12 or 13 years at this point.

I don't know how I feel like I've been saying that for a long time.

So maybe it's been more at this point.

split base

been

stayed the same age.

I think that's it.

I never

hold on.

on.

his website, he's I've been, I had my first company when I was 11 years old.

So if you're not watching this on YouTube, that math.

Is mapping correctly because

there's a generational gap happening right

I

know.

exactly.

The split phase has been around maybe for about a decade or so now.

and, it's funny because when I, got started into CRO, like I actually

had, there was a time where I almost started a CRO agency and I didn't.

And then I went in a completely different field.

And then I came back, but I remember being a kid and I'm not kidding for

just for fun during like summer day.

Sometimes I would sit down at my computer and I would write fictional marketing

plans and fictional ad campaigns for brands I would invent or whatever.

And I took so much pleasure from that.

And, not a lot of people knew about that.

I think it was something that I kept a bit like secret,

Wait, Raphael, you had friends or this was how you?

No, I did.

Yeah, I did have a lot

He's like a very friendly guy.

It's I just see him like, 10 years old, like writing fictional marketing plans

in the company's room all by himself.

but you know, I liked, I've always been quite creative.

I always loved marketing.

I'd love to geek out on that.

There was a website.

I don't know if it still exists.

It was like ads of the world that when I'd be bored, I'd just go

Yeah

there.

is it still around?

Does that still exist?

I haven't seen it

Goes to google immediately

Lauren will Google that as we're talking, but all right.

So what age was that again?

You, you said, all

that specifically, I'm not sure, but it could be anywhere between 11 to 15, 16.

I was also trying to figure out at one point, how to launch an online

magic store, like an e commerce store, but there was no e commerce solution.

That was

and you still promise you had friends growing up.

I still promise.

I'm kidding.

Of course Of course and people aren't good at magic.

That's just a bad stereotype

no, they don't need to get mad,

right.

They're just jealous.

ultimately look like I just I love e commerce.

I didn't know.

I mean, it wasn't even really a thing back then, but I wanted to do something online.

That was my thing.

Like I was frustrated that I was a kid and I couldn't just go and start business.

That really drove me nuts.

And at one point, I'm not kidding.

I think I was probably like 15 or so.

I was like my, my dad's car and I started crying and I was like,

dad, I just want to like, Start a hotel chain or run a business or do

something, but I have to go to school.

Oh, my God, that is so hysterical.

You you've

got to, Oh my God.

that's that, I mean, that's not normal, which is fine because I think the most

brilliant minds are actually not normal.

That's abnormal in a good way.

So get me, don't get me wrong.

Cause that drive obviously led you to, to create split base and doing

all the things you're doing right now.

So that evolution, like you finally, I take it like you finished

school or maybe you didn't, maybe you dropped out and you started

doing

was like yes done Canadian rules, you're allowed, let's pursue this.

I mean, I finished my 12th grade at that point for the last

two years of my high school.

I was known as like the guy that would sometimes fly to New York

to have business meetings and I am like from a small town in Canada.

and I had a mentor at the time.

incredible person, Dan Martell, which maybe.

Some people have heard of and he was almost my neighbor, so he really

pushed me to do hard things like booking a restaurant and saying

tomorrow you're going to New York and you're going to sell out that thing.

And I'm like, I don't know anyone there haven't been there in 10 years.

what am I going to do?

Anyways, that's a store for another day.

But you know, that's that was kind of I wasn't a big fan

of high school at that point.

Okay.

Much preferred to take this meetings in New York than anything else.

is

But

did, you did actually do all that.

So you carried through.

Like you did actually book hotels and then you had seminars or what was that?

I assume that's what it was.

that event actually sold out.

so that was a nice win.

but yeah, I finished high school and I made the decision not To go

to university, I was registered into an entrepreneurship program.

I was like, why am I going to learn through books how to be

an entrepreneur when I can just when I've already been doing it?

and when I can do more of it instead of just being in a classroom.

and I launched many failed businesses, right?

But in the meantime, I was also like, Building websites in my spare time.

And I was like, at that point, I was already knee deep into like

conversion optimization because of previous failed startups that I was

doing around the marketing space.

And it really got me into that rabbit hole.

And, Yeah, that was like the one thing in digital marketing that I liked the most.

It was just how can I make things better, but also, how can I use

my creativity to improve websites and make marketing better?

And I preferred that over like even just starting things from scratch.

And I think it was just very natural then to build a split base and say,

Hey, we're a conversion optimization agency where we make existing

websites and existing brands better.

And, many years later, well, here I am.

So, I mean, it's, it's an interesting journey.

How did you get your first client?

Did you just, I mean, it sounds like you had a few failed

businesses as I did as well.

I mean, the point is, is that kind of.

Sort of stumbled into this, but you are very focused on it.

You were actually building sites and then maybe running traffic to them and

figuring out, all right, well, this thing that I can do after the click

actually really makes as much of a difference in the overall success of

the business as does like how much traffic is actually coming to my site.

Is that sort of, was the evolution of it?

take me through it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, it was hard, I only had one job.

I left that job with 5, 000 bucks in my bank account.

And I said, you know what, I can make this marketing thing work.

I had a lot of confidence, which is great because, it definitely

looking back wasn't a lot of money.

And I had a limited timeline for, my parents were not going to pay

for my lifestyle or anything.

My rent, fortunately, was about 400 bucks a month, back then, so, I

had a bit of a runway, but it was,

months.

Yeah.

exactly, right?

but it

Right, but no food, no food, no shoes, no gaming.

can't eat anything.

Right.

gotta add that on top.

and I, and I also, I'd like nice things.

So that was difficult, but, I really had to figure things out.

I was like, like this is, I just felt like my life was on the line in that

sense where I had to prove myself that I was able to build a business, that

was one thing after so many failed attempts at different businesses and

I had some successes as well, but you know, I was like this type of like in

marketing, in this space, I need to.

make this work.

So it was back in the days of like where blogging was really

big, right, like guest blogging.

So I would write ridiculous blog posts that were like 70 pages long.

I would guest blog all the time, even though I didn't really like it.

It just felt like a way to put some of my ideas and my research.

And at the same time, it's funny because you learn at the

same time as you're doing that.

And yeah.

and I would record some videos and I tried so many things for almost

Nothing to happen for a very long time and then kind of out of nowhere.

eventually I don't even know how, we got that first client.

I don't even remember who was the first or which was the second.

but you know, it took a while and even when we got those first clients,

it's like without a portfolio, it's really, really, really hard.

To build an agency that's based on knowledge in, what you're able to achieve.

So, but you know, Hey, I, I did everything I could and, looking back, I mean, it

would have been really easy to quit.

But I think I'm just really, really glad that I didn't because if we look at

where the company is today, like we've run optimization programs for some of

the best known DTC brands around right?

Like Dr.

Squash and once upon a farm and so many cool companies that we

got to work with over the years and still work with today as well.

Right?

And that would never have happened if I if in that first year and a half.

I mean, gotta say, even the first three years were incredibly hard, just

to, to get more than three clients, it felt like it took forever, to have

more than three clients at a time, but, you continue and then you, you succeed

How many times did you want to quit?

Do you think in your head?

Yeah.

than I can count, but you know what I realized the only job I ever had, okay, I

had it for nine months and, It scared me more than running my own business and the

uncertainties that comes with it, because I felt if I'm, if I have a job, I am not.

In control of what happens to me in the sense that I can work my ass off.

I can work less.

And it's really a gamble on whether I like, did I really even

want to climb inside a company?

Like I wanted to like work on my ideas.

I wanted to have the power.

Possibility to make more money if I really put my time and my efforts into it.

And it's not something that you can always, I mean, nothing

doesn't happen with the job.

I look at our top employees and, they've, they've grown through the company like

really quickly and, and they've earned it.

I'm an entrepreneur at heart.

Right.

And for me, it's I have an idea.

I want to make it happen.

And when I don't have full control over my own destiny, it stresses me out.

So for me, the uncertainty of running a business.

And my confidence in figuring things out was greater than,

what I would get through a job.

So it kept me going.

Yeah, I, well, I mean, you're talking to, we're three entrepreneurs here.

Like we, I think it's counterintuitive to think that there's actually more

security in starting your own business.

The hardest part is getting it off the ground and getting a product

and or service that people actually want and will pay you money for.

And then actually starting to pay your expenses.

And then the next step is like, all right,

Sounds like a lot of more hard parts.

You're like, and then there's a new hard part.

And then there's a new part for it.

But it was starting a job.

It's like, you know, you have to train you all these, these other things, like

the, the cost of the risk of the business running aground is less stressful than me

not being in control of my own destiny,

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

a hundred percent.

And I never realized that I just couldn't figure out what the

hell I wanted to do with my life.

But, you know, I was fired three times.

So, I mean, I had to, I had to choose something.

I couldn't really have a boss, but no fascinating.

So child prodigy, you really were a child prodigy really to start off.

And then you turn this thing into a super successful business with some of

the biggest brands, like really cool DTC brands, which we want to get into here.

within the context of, I think the, the, when we.

When we started today's show, we talked more about like CRO, the word itself.

And yes, that is the industry phrase, but it's so much more than that.

Maybe let's, let's discuss that because I hate it when people say CRO.

And even when we were talking, I was like, do you mind if I say CRO?

Cause it's almost like.

It's, it's not really about that.

So maybe just explain that in general and sort of clear up some

misconceptions about the word itself.

Yeah, I think there's been ups and downs with the use of that word, because when

we look at when CRO started happening, which is, Jay, I believe the Eisenberg's

brother around the 2000s or so that started that that came up with that term.

and it was a very different thing back then.

And even when I started doing CRO, like it wasn't very popular amongst

e commerce brands, like only the big, big brands or the enterprises

of this world really focused in or invested in CRO, and it was hard to

convince them to do so, and we went through a period.

I think we're like, okay, more and more brands started to learn

about conversion optimization.

And then they started to realize that, hey, it's not

just about the conversion rate.

It's about really.

It's really about having a process that helps us understand which decisions

to make, in a data driven way through experimentation and, and, and through

data and through data and insights.

And then we hit then a point where all of a sudden, like Shopify

really, really, really boomed.

And then, All of a sudden Twitter and all the social media were like, we're,

we got into this content age, which before it was about blog posts, right?

Like it was about like, you talk about CRO, you'd write like a really,

really deep and detailed blog post.

And we got to that point where, where I felt like, okay, the industry needs

a lot of education, but the information that was available, I mean, I won't

say it was always like long blog posts.

Cause there was a lot of, more like Neil Patel type.

mishmash of content that that was a bit random and not necessarily factual.

but now we're in the tick tock age, right?

Where information is dumbed down even more.

It's everything is shorts, YouTube shorts, LinkedIn shorts, Twitter.

So forget about those like super long blog posts.

Now CRO has been simplified to get people to so it's it's more easily understandable

for the masses, which is great.

I love that the adoption and, brands know that they need to do CRO.

That's fantastic.

Right on the, I guess the, the cons that this brings is that, a lot of the

advice still remains very dumbed down or a lot of what's being shared out there

becomes, just for attention grabbing.

So the term CRO, which I'm, what.

Which at one point became like this big debate of like

conversion rate optimization.

That's not what we do because it's so much more than the conversion rate.

We're looking to optimize, for the lifetime value.

We're also looking at AOV, right?

We're also looking at any other metric.

Is conversion rate really the one metric that trumps everything above all?

Right?

And the answer is no.

But then now we, how do you explain that?

Explain that in, 15 second short without losing people's attention when

what gets engagement in shorts and everything now is like, here's 10 test

ideas you can steal and copy right away.

sorry.

I'm, I, I kinda went on and on, but philosophically speaking, I

think this is what's been happening to the term CRO and the industry.

Yeah, it's interesting.

The, I, I was trying to think of the book that I first read

and I think it was by Tim Ash.

And it was landing page optimization.

It was back at 2010, 2011, thereabouts.

And I, I read it because I was like, that's really cool.

Cause I was starting to get into this and I was, I forget at that point in

time, where I actually was in my career.

But anyway, I think this is like right around the time I got fired, for the

last time and started this whole thing.

the point was, is that I read that book.

And I was like, landing page optimization.

This is pretty amazing.

And then I met him at a conference.

I was like, this is so cool.

And then I started to do it like for about, I was an affiliate

and I realized, Holy crap.

It's not, I, I read that book and I studied it and I made

notes and everything else.

And it was, it wasn't on like a Kindle back then.

It was actual physical book.

I had to go to Barnes and Nobles to go by and.

It was then where I started to optimize my, scammy affiliate pages.

I was like, holy crap.

I had that realization.

And then when we started our agency, we just did everything.

It was like, people paid us like, I don't know what it was.

Two grand a month.

I did.

Everything from the ad all the way to the landing page optimization CR like CRO.

And then all of a sudden, somehow it changed from LPO to CRO

somewhere in the middle there.

And I'm kind of lost like when it actually did change.

Now everyone is like conversion rate optimization.

that's the thing I need to increase my conversion rate.

When at the end of the day, it's more monetization for the business.

It's.

It's LTV, it's all the things that we're going to talk

about here on today's episode.

So I think like it happened maybe in the mid 2010s, like all of a sudden people

started switching over , towards CRO as opposed to, other forms of optimization.

and I think here's the deal, at the end of the day, right.

I don't like that term, but I still use it.

And I'm partially guilty, I guess, in some sort of way for the fact that

we're still using it in the industry.

And I know it's like purists really want to stop using that term.

The issue obviously is if you stop using that term and you call it something else,

well, people understand what it is, right?

At this point, I care more about people caring about CRO

and understanding what it is.

And then once we have their attention, we, then the proper

education, That can follow.

I think I prefer that than really gatekeeping and really being, very, for, I

don't know, I'm looking for my words here, but, instead of just overcomplicating

things and then saying, Oh, no, this is not called CR for that reason.

And so, and so on.

Right?

I know there's been a lot of attempts from agencies rebrand it as well,

which, but at the end of the day, people just still see it as okay, well, okay.

They see through that, right?

It's okay, well, yeah, but that's just you're doing CRO.

we've even tried at one point.

I don't even remember what we called it, but at the end of the day,

it's like, how do you explain that?

You're just making the job harder for yourself when it comes to

explaining and selling that.

so it's an interesting dilemma, but you know, we'll debating on, should

we call it CRO or CEO or whatever?

Make the world a, well, I don't want to say make the world a better

place, but is that, is that on its own going to grow a companies?

No.

So at the end of the day, I care more about what happens on the

websites and the process and everything than what we call it.

Well, let's get into it.

Like what?

So.

But when you're looking at a client, the client comes to you and they say,

Hey, I need to, increase my conversion rate or the thing that they want isn't

necessarily the thing that they need.

Right?

So how do you view it?

what's the, what, how do you view that whole idea of how can I make

your business more efficient?

Making more money, making more profit, all that in the, within the context of this

predefined, acronym that the marketing world has created, that's called CRO.

Well, conversion rate is not terrible.

It's not like we still want to increase conversion rates, right?

but the thing is, it's not the only thing that you should optimize.

And conversion optimization is not just about increasing that metric.

If we talk about increasing metrics, well, reducing your acquisition costs,

increasing conversion rate, increasing AOV, increasing lifetime value, right?

All those things are, Equally important.

If you want to dive a little deeper, depending on your circumstances, and then

there's a million ways to look at this.

Right?

But let's say you realize that your business would succeed a lot more if

you increase your ratio of subscribers versus people who buy from you one time.

Right?

Well, The goal of your conversion optimization methodology, which

is what it makes no sense.

The goal of that conversion rate optimization process is not to

increase the conversion rate.

It might be to just, okay, how do we get more people to subscribe versus, by

one time, conversion optimization can be about, making, optimizing the website.

So returning customers, come back.

More often, right?

It could also be to increase the frequency of people buying from you.

it can be so many, so many and so many things.

And conversion rate is one thing, but I think we also need to look at

what is a conversion rate and which conversion rate are we looking at?

Because when people think of a conversion rate, they look at their Shopify

dashboards or just their, GA dashboards.

And they see one metric that's always there and it's conversion rate, and they

see it almost on a day to day basis.

The reality is that that metric on that dashboard is the biggest, not

misconception, but it's just it's the biggest lie you could have.

it's the worst metric you could have to run your business because

depending on how Facebook's own algorithm is behaving that day, your

conversion rate will be impacted.

The creatives we are launching, the audiences that are being targeted,

the email campaigns, whether you launch it one day or you don't

have an email campaign the other day, the time of the year, right?

All of that will impact your conversion rate.

And, in a way that your website might not even make a difference in the sense that

you could have the same website, not touch it, the same products, and your conversion

rate would fluctuate month after month, day after day, year after year.

Right, but because of factors that are completely unrelated to your website.

So, if you focus on, hey, I want to double my conversion rate or increase

it by 20%, it may not even be doable.

Like it might not be doable.

You could, yes.

Potentially have more people convert, increase the conversion rate of a specific

channel on a specific page, increase ads to cart, right, but maybe your global

site conversion rate is going to keep going down if you're increasing your ad

spend just because you're increasing the amount of people you're advertising to

and you're not targeting bottom of funnel people anymore and you're targeting colder

audiences and just by nature, Well, there are people that are less likely to convert

and therefore your site wide conversion rate is going to go down a little bit.

so yeah, the site wide conversion rate hides many averages.

It hides a desktop versus mobile, which are entirely different conversion rates.

It hides it from a channel perspective.

It hides it from an audience or segment, basis, right?

So it's all something that we have to consider.

So if somebody comes to you, I love the idea of, of, and this is,

this happens to us quite a bit.

It's I need, I need Facebook ads from you guys.

I need Google ads.

Okay, that's great that we get them in the door kind of that way, but it's like,

what, it's a difference between what they want and actually what they need.

So they come to you and they say, all right, well, my, my website

conversion rate is 1 percent and that stinks, Raphael, or maybe it's 0.

5 percent because that's my Google analytics say, like, , fix it.

Give me maybe an example of, I got a couple of different ways or maybe

a couple of different examples that you've done this through different

businesses that they use that North Star, that metric that staring them in

the face every time they go into GA or into Shopify, when it's actually the

wrong metric and you found something that's completely different and then.

Changed not necessarily the course of history here, but it may be increased

in a, in a noticeable way or a very impactful way, their business as a whole.

Yeah, well, I'll give you an example of a recent test we conducted, right?

Obviously, we're hired to increase conversions.

Now we have this client that sells supplements and then you, they sent

everybody to this landing page and it's got three different plans.

You can buy one time or you can subscribe, right?

Now we're thinking, okay, well, if we have three different plans and

each have different options, are we, is that something that could

lead to analysis paralysis, right?

Do we have, would it be better to reduce the options?

And then is there a plan that we should technically push people towards, right?

in order to, yeah, increase conversion, but also increase

just the value of those customers.

you say plan those products are those like, what specifically is that

without getting into too specific?

yeah, so it's, each each, I guess there's three packages, right?

So one time order than a smaller quantity than a bigger quantity and

each can be one time or subscribe.

The subscription plans are all different as well, right?

so then we're trying to understand.

Okay, well, If we just are hired to increase conversion rate, if we just, if

we were to stick to that term, right, we just remove a plan or change the plans

and look for the highest conversion rate on that landing page based on that.

But that would be a big mistake because here's what happened.

Ultimately, well, when we look.

At those plans, well, you have people that subscribe and you have people

that you know, buy the one time products, they'll have different values.

Well, each subscription plan have different churn rates.

And each of those plans have different lifetime values.

If we don't take that under consideration, and we just start optimizing for the

upfront conversion rate on the landing page, what could happen is that we remove

You know, the packages are the plans that had the lowest conversion rate.

We keep the one that has upfront the highest conversion rate, but what if that

plan ultimately has the highest churn rate or over the course of six months

is the one that leads to the lowest lifetime value that is entirely possible.

It happens every single day.

And yet if we just focused on conversion rate, we'd miss the That entire part

of the story, so it would look like a win because up front, it looks like

on the day of the first purchase, we have, we make more money, but then you

would actually lose out quite a bit over the next couple of months, right?

So that's a great example.

I think where it's just And then there are so many businesses

that offer subscription.

So it's like if you, if you do test for that, right, are you taking

under consideration the other metrics and especially lifetime value?

Yeah.

fired by the client?

Seriously?

that's the operative question because they're like, well, I

hired him to increase my conversion rate, but I don't really know.

What he's doing, like, how do you relay that?

And I always sort of come back to that operative question.

I was like, as agency owners, like you always want to have lifetime

value for your clients, them stay on for a long period of time because

you can continue to optimize and help scale and grow their business.

But in that case, you were hired for what one thing that they thought.

When in fact it probably wasn't the thing that they really needed.

So what was the process there and the communication with the client to get

them to understand that it's bigger than just a conversion rate thing?

I think you're both, going to relate to this, but ultimately, right, I think with

any type of agency business, it's about how do you communicate your results?

You could be doing great work, but if you don't communicate your results

or your process or what you're doing clearly, you're You know, you run

the risk of getting fired, even though you've done a tremendous job.

So obviously, I think a big part of the last decade has been figuring out what's

the cadence and how do we communicate in a way that, we don't lose the client because

if we get too technical and too into stats and numbers, then clients get confused.

And some people want that.

And that's great.

And in that case, we're going to provide that.

But you know, there's a lot of people that just want to know the basics.

so Understanding how to communicate on a client per client basis, is

super important and probably one of the number one things that we

try to improve on all the time.

the second thing is I'm actually pretty upfront with them on onboarding and in

the sales calls where I say, Hey, I know you care about your conversion rate,

but we're there to make you more money.

And what that means is maybe we need to optimize another metric, or maybe,

when we optimize your conversion rate, we can't look at your site

wide, conversion rate, we have to look at it from a channel basis.

There are so many different situations that could happen, right?

But what we've really tried to do is how do we.

educate the client so they know how we think around optimization.

And I think that's something that by the way, that's one of the reasons

why a lot of people work with us.

It's because of how we think of conversion optimization, right?

They, they hear me talk about it on social media, on YouTube, on my

podcast, and, and they're attracted to the way we think around that.

So they work with us and they understand that it's not a quick win.

Like I don't really share here's 50 AB test ideas you can do tomorrow.

That's not the type of audience I attract and that's not the

audience I want to attract either.

Right?

I talk about methodologies.

I talk about process.

I talk about those things and maybe it's less sexy.

Industry wise, but often the brands that come our way already

have an understanding of CRO.

They're in it for the long run.

It's not something they expect to do only just for a couple months

and they understand that site wide conversion rates can be You know,

not a lie, but it just can hide a lot of truth and a lot of things.

me a bit misleading.

I, I think it just comes up at the end of the day, it's all about expectations.

And we've really tried and it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

look, like no matter the experience of the client in this space and so

on, it still happens that all of a sudden, their site wide conversion

has decreased by a couple percentage points, and they're super stressed out,

they're wondering what's happening.

Well, we're there to, reassure them and help understand what happened, Very often,

then we do a channel and device breakdown.

We just realize, hey, well, you've seen it.

I've spent a lot less money on Facebook in the past couple days,

and that's caused a drop, right?

99 percent of the time, that's what happens, but, but, yeah,

get blamed.

oh, yeah, we get, we get blamed for everything, everything, all the time.

and then you get blamed

and you

Did we

happen to

said, we noticed.

yeah, a client makes a change on the website and then it breaks an AP

test and then they're like, Hey, you guys did not QA to test properly.

Well, then we'll get blamed for that.

and I think it's just part of the job, but it's also part of

the job for us to be able to.

Not to just accept the blame, but to investigate, right?

obviously, look, if it's our fault, I want to understand how to make

sure it doesn't happen again.

so I will investigate, but if it's not our fault, I think we still also, for,

for, for the clients trust in us, but also in just optimization longterm.

And for that to work out, well, we have to tell them, Hey, Mr.

Client, like totally understand.

You thought we didn't do this, right?

But look.

Ultimately, if you make a change to this product page template, it will

affect the class that's being used in that test, and it will break the test.

And based on, when that happens, we may or may not see it.

All of us, they're so, your websites are technology, it's

code, anything can happen.

So, I think it's just the way I look about optimization.

This is what I tell clients.

I say, we work with brands for a very long time.

I bank on relationships and I've always banked on relationships

to grow this business.

I don't want to be this transactional agency that operates in the

sidelines because I don't think optimization can work that way.

It's so complex.

Even if your goal is to do it internally.

Eventually, and not work with an agency, which is great, like you need, you're

going to have the same conversations.

You're going to blame that team for something that happens, or there's

always going to be that friction point.

So unless the brand really learns how to do it properly.

And that's why we're there.

That's why we exist.

My mission is not just increase their numbers, but it's hopefully to get

them to think websites the right way.

So they can one day be fly on their own.

Yeah.

or at least, integrate a bit more of just the optimization or CRO way

of thinking, in their day to day.

I mean, I think it's a big, I'm saying that it just sounds like a big mission,

but, when you, when you're, when you collaborate closely for a client, Over

many years, and you're not afraid to share kind of the mistakes, the learnings

and so on that, I guess that learning develops itself, that process develops

itself inside of many companies and, and, It makes for, a better relationship, but

also those are usually the brands that are most successful at growing as well.

I look at those brands where it's happening and, and they are some of

the most DTC brands I've seen to date.

They're taking the longer term view.

They realize this isn't an overnight thing.

It's, double my conversion rate, double my business kind of thing.

Let me ask you this and closing here.

When did CRO become so like.

SEO ified, especially on, on LinkedIn, and you've got some strong opinions on this.

shares, likes, comments don't necessarily equate to what's

in line with your mission.

we just see this all the time.

So what?

What?

Like, when did it happen?

what's your take on it?

Like, why does somebody CRO agencies, like, feel like they need to do this?

Because, it's just vanity metrics that they're at after

after when all of a sudden done

I mean, I think it's just a reflection of society in general.

tick tock, taking over, making everybody impatient.

People can't watch, can't stand to watch long videos anymore.

People don't want to read long blog posts anymore.

And I think what happened is we had this e commerce boom, right?

Like around the time of COVID or like a little bit after, I think 2021, if I'm not

mistaken, we're probably some of the peak e commerce years and everything boomed and

so many brands that probably never would have worked in a normal economy or also

working and booming and it made no sense.

That also led to this Shopify boom and so many people just starting, Shopify

stores, and then everybody's just jumping on the opportunity to like, Hey, how do I

consult or do marketing for those stores?

And then there's also been, and you probably remember the year better

than I do, but you know, like the iOS changes that happened, I think

it was around the same period or towards the end of those years,

21.

Yeah.

21, right?

So it was, Perfectly aligned.

And that was kind of the beginning of the end of that boom, because all of a

sudden brands restarted to realize I can't just spend my time optimizing my Facebook

ads only do that and be successful.

Brands started to realize I can only control Facebook or the other ad platforms

to up to a certain extent, but my website.

I can, and I can do a lot there.

And that's the second half of the equation.

So I think really starting at that point in time, we really started

seeing more brands care about conversion optimization, wanting

to take more control on, increasing their conversions and their website.

And, and all of a sudden that became more important than ever.

And gradually, well, then just Five years earlier, conversion optimization

was mostly a thing that was taught through like super long skyscraper style

blog posts that we called at the time.

Right.

now it was like, okay, well, what's the method of consuming information?

Well, it's usually short videos, short posts, quick things.

And people just want the.

Quick, the quick wins.

And before that, there were fewer people doing CRO and it was more like

enterprise people and people that had, that were very deep into it.

So the knowledge was maybe a bit more sparse, but it was maybe a little.

Deeper.

Now that same level of knowledge exists, but it, but it often gets lost within the

sea of engagement, which is now so many people has got businesses where they want

to profit from CRO people, consultants, every single agency from dev agencies

to add agencies, to new CRO agencies, to, kids coming out of high school.

I mean, I was one, I was that guy once, right?

So I can't, I can't, I'm not complaining,

case, junior high school, but that's all right.

So.

I can't complain about that, but it just, what it means is all of a sudden, so

many people are trying to profit off CRO and what's going to happen is, well, how

do you do that in today's day and age?

Well, it's all about engagement and there's going to be

a lot of things shared.

What I guess I'm seeing though, is obviously when you have a lot of

people that's been in CRO, maybe for a couple months or a year, only two

years is, well, Generally, you can be very loud, but it doesn't mean

that, that content is necessarily valuable or it's going to help, right?

it doesn't take any level of expertise in CRO to build a massive swipe file

with 100 test ideas that, you could apply to your e commerce store tomorrow,

which won't do anything, by the way.

back then it was, I don't want to mention Neil Patel again, but it was like, Neil

Patel had those lists on blog posts.

We

insult them.

We insult them all the time on this podcast, by the way.

And he's been on this podcast.

So there you go.

and, and look like I know him and I really respect what he's built,

but it's just it's a first example.

Like he's been really, really good back in the days that like building

those ridiculously long blog posts and,

He didn't write any of them, but that's okay.

Exactly.

But you know, That's what we had back then.

That's

swipe files.

It's the same content, just repurposed.

And it doesn't take any CRO expertise to build a swipe file of, I just broke

down, this, athletic greens funnel.

I just, Broke down Dr.

Squatch's funnel.

You don't need to be a CRO expert to take a screenshot of every step of a funnel.

You don't need to be a CRO expert just to come up with a

bunch of random test ideas that,

CRO, standing for Conversion Rate Opinion.

Oh, I love that.

Touche.

I might steal that.

And how about all those guys breaking down the Dr.

Squatch funnel?

Like you actually worked on the Dr.

Squatch funnel.

Yeah.

Well, we were

Dr.

let's get some bashing.

Let's get

for five years.

Right.

And when we started working with them, they were a small 10 million

brand and, now they're advertising the super bowl and everything.

and, And it's interesting because when you see that, and Dr.

Squatch is not the only example, we work with a lot of big brands where like you

see those people in LinkedIn breaking down their funnel or telling everything

that they should do differently.

And well, the reality is sometimes those ideas were in the pipeline

and they failed, or sometimes they totally didn't, those recommendations

made no sense for X and Y reason.

so that's the thing, right?

If you just look at a website and you try to say they should do this and you try to

prescribe without actually having access to the analytics, to the qualitative data,

to the customer databases, to the segments and everything, like it just becomes I

guess of who's more creative with coming up with random ideas and applying them on

any website and it gets views and there is some value in heuristics when there's

an actual process and methodology for it, but yeah, I think it's just a proof

that like I I saw those funnel breakdowns and very often like The recommendations

did not make sense or didn't apply for x and y reason i'm not allowed to say

anything or say the y You And I never even comment on those posts, but I just

know that having seen the back end, I know they would totally flop sometimes.

And that happens with a lot of clients.

Please don't tell me they said, make the buy button orange

It's possible.

But, and the reason I'm saying this is at the end of the day, this is

just a proof that You can have a lot of what seems like a great idea.

You have a lot of content that's being shared that looks like a

very well thought expert's opinion.

But in the world of CRO, no one's got a crystal ball.

And unless you test it, unless there's actual data backing things

up, it's really, really hard to, know or to predict that a recommendation

is going to make an impact.

We run hundreds, if not thousands of A B tests a year.

And, I, every day I'm proven wrong, like something I think is going to make

a huge difference ends up making no difference or ends up losing, right?

And I've been in this for over a decade and yet, right?

And I think that's, that's the thing.

It's, there's a lot of things we can share on social for engagement.

But is it truly going to help those brands or are we just doing it for engagement?

And it's something that I'm always torn because yeah, I also want more engagement.

I want to grow my own agency.

I'm not hiding that.

And I'm not trying to be such a purist that I'm above all

these people and everything.

Like.

I'm often thinking okay, how do I create content that yes, creates

engagement, but that's also not here's a swap file of a hundred

different things that I know people shouldn't copy for in the first place.

Right.

Cause it's all individualistic.

And also it, one thing affects the next thing, which affects the

next thing, which affects the next thing, which is, your landing page

optimization, your conversion rate.

Your bundle size, your choices, your AOV, your LTV, your profit

margin on individual products.

there's so many factors.

It's not just one thing.

It's not like, Hey, do this.

And all of a sudden double your business.

But we see all those posts and those are the ones that get a lot of engagement.

So question, I think everything that you see, because sometimes it's taken.

In theory and out of context without really understanding, which I think

has been, great here because you've certainly seen a lot and you're

you've been in this business a long time and you're not an old guy.

So, I mean, that's impressive unto itself.

just imagine, Lauren, , you like breaking down websites in your room at age 11.

I can't see that you, you're, you were like out the dance floor,

going to parties and doing all that.

And Raphael still had a full life.

I said that I still did all of that, but yes.

For me, I was like up in my room, like playing guitar and I wasn't very popular.

So anyway, I was that guy, but anyway, where can people get in touch with you?

Where's the best place for people to connect with you, Raphael?

Yeah.

So you can go to splitbase.

com slash PT and you can get a free proposal there if you need help with

conversion optimization or landing pages, or conversion optimized site

redesigns for larger e commerce brands.

so splitbase.

com and yeah, slash PT.

Best place to just learn about everything.

But if you want to connect with me personally, I mean, Hey, LinkedIn

is probably where I post the most.

and I try to record videos pretty often sharing and not test to

implement tomorrow or right away, but, methodologies and strategies rather.

so you can learn there.

Yeah.

and I'm always trying to get better as well.

So, I'd love for people to watch the content and let me know what

they want more of, or what, they've learned through it and same on

Twitter, are Paul and Daigle.

It's a little harder to find as my last name is very French and, well, French

Canadian and complicated, but, I'm sure it's all going to be in the show notes,

so I won't bother spelling it out.

Well, we'll leave all those links in the show notes and, yes, for those non French

speakers, we'll make sure that we do have that proper, spelling pronunciation.

It's been great having you on the show.

So much for coming on, been a big fan of you , for, I wouldn't say years,

but I would say about a year and, really tremendous what you've been able

to do and building up the business and making a real positive impact.

So super appreciate that.

Make sure that you do go over to split pace.

com forward slash PT.

Get that special offer just for PT listeners like you.

And, yeah, all the links and all the resources and everything that we mentioned

on today's show, including the proper spelling of Raphael's first and last

name, is over at perpetual traffic.

com.

So make sure that you do leave a rating and subscribe wherever you

listen to podcasts and on behalf of my awesome cohost, Lauren E Petrulo,

until next show.

See ya.