You're in charge of a team...
How do you spend your time?
Are you a Leader or a Manager?
What's your key responsibilities?
How do you create a culture that performs?
These were some of the topics we discussed. The panel was...
Matthew Ward
Muhammad Mehmood
Johan Meyer
and me, Rob McPhillips.
I'm Matthew Ward.
Matthew:I'm from Canada.
Matthew:I'm retired for a number of years and I'm doing this now.
Muhammad:I'm Mohammed Mahmood.
Muhammad:I am an expert, if I may say, because I have a good experience
Muhammad:in hospitality and SaaS business.
Muhammad:So I'm now Doing business consultancy, helping startups
Muhammad:mostly to kick off the ground.
Muhammad:And I'm also now being active on this platform for the
Muhammad:past three and a half months.
Muhammad:And I've met great people like yourself now, Matthew, Rob and Johan.
Muhammad:And we, I think we're collectively, we're gradually growing and
Muhammad:learning from each other on
Rob:a daily basis.
Johan:My focus at the moment is an organization called Stuck to
Johan:Unstuck and the focus is really on working with people in the workplace.
Johan:Who are struggling or frustrated and want to move forward, not necessarily
Johan:getting the right support or the right guidance or training that they
Johan:need and on an individual basis, identifying how do we help these guys
Johan:move forward and gain the competencies they require to do what they want to do.
Rob:I'll just explain a little bit of my thinking, my rationale
Rob:of why I chose you all to be in the group and what I was thinking.
Rob:Matthew and I had a wonderful conversation where he shaped
Rob:my thinking on the difference between leadership and management.
Rob:And I really wanted to get him and Mohamed together to clarify that idea
Rob:of leadership management and how can we have a working framework that is useful.
Rob:Mohamed and I, in our conversation, we touched on the limits of what is a leader
Rob:and then where do those responsibilities then end with the teamwork.
Rob:There's lots of talk about the leader's responsibility.
Rob:If the team is not responsive to that leader, then that can be the constraint.
Rob:Johan works on the other side of leadership in helping people navigate
Rob:their careers in being recognized and being able to communicate better
Rob:and being able to be recognized by leadership and move in their career.
Rob:So I thought he would have an interesting view and some
Rob:contributions on the other side.
Rob:A hazy idea but I'm hoping through the conversation that
Rob:we'll be able to clarify it.
Rob:Basically the outline is where does the leader or the manager's responsibility
Rob:end and the team members begin?
Rob:So where's that delineation?
Muhammad:If I add as a starters, I believe that both leaders
Muhammad:and managers role are to a certain extent interchangeable.
Muhammad:That's one.
Muhammad:Secondly, I believe that both these roles are actually responsibilities.
Muhammad:So to me, if I just zoom out from my personal angle, I see this
Muhammad:as not a title, but individual responsibility of managing and leading.
Muhammad:And they are both the foundations.
Muhammad:I like to call the analogy of a skyscraper, like it's both of them are
Muhammad:required for the solid foundations.
Muhammad:It's not either you are a manager or a leader, or you could be both.
Muhammad:Could be a manager and a good leader or vice versa.
Muhammad:So I have a very open view on it.
Muhammad:I don't like to glorify the leadership title, which we see a
Muhammad:lot in our lovely LinkedIn platform.
Muhammad:And I believe that managers can also be leaders, but so is the leader for me,
Muhammad:who is actually leading from the front, who is setting some examples for others
Muhammad:to follow, who could ignite passion.
Muhammad:And equally so can also manage people on an individual level.
Muhammad:So what is that management looks like?
Muhammad:It's the day to day stuff.
Muhammad:I want a holiday, I need a break.
Muhammad:I can't work on that particular schedule, et cetera.
Muhammad:So that's the nitty gritty side of things.
Muhammad:The mostly the administrative part.
Muhammad:And that's how I see the manager or the management looks after that.
Muhammad:And if I wear the hat of a leader now, and I want, for example, Johan to.
Muhammad:Stopped coming by car because I want him to be more eco
Muhammad:friendly and, cycling to work.
Muhammad:I should be doing that first, setting that example, and then ask or request
Muhammad:him to do so this is my kind of initial comment on both leaders and managers.
Muhammad:Sorry, Johan, you were on my screen, so I just picked you.
Johan:I'll tell you what, from where we started going to town.
Johan:We see quite a number of cyclists because they've actually made it possible.
Johan:It simulates somewhat what in the Netherlands.
Johan:I'd assume, with the dedicated biking passes, a lot of cyclists,
Johan:but still it's 20 where we are 25 K's into town, 25 K's back.
Johan:And I say, you really have to want to do it in order to get there.
Johan:Cause it can be a challenge.
Johan:Touching on to what you're saying.
Johan:Through my whole career, I was fortunate or cursed to be either
Johan:in senior management or executive positions until I got fed up with it.
Johan:And I realized that where I really enjoyed what I did is working with high
Johan:potential individuals who were just not able to live up to their potential
Johan:and helping them just find that spot.
Johan:And that's why I had to change my profession into now and to really
Johan:build something significant around it.
Johan:But what I've always struggled with is this differentiation
Johan:between leadership and management.
Johan:Because they are management tasks.
Johan:What you referred to it's part of managerial duties to ensure that
Johan:people are, doing what they're supposed to do and to grant leave
Johan:and to provide support and so forth.
Johan:And then there's leadership components that come to that, et cetera, the
Johan:stuff that we're all familiar with.
Johan:And, from my experience, both being All across the hierarchy.
Johan:I cannot recall being myself in a position or any of the people that reported into
Johan:me, those I reported into or colleagues I worked with, where you did not have
Johan:a continuous combination of the two.
Johan:You may have the designation of Manager X, but in order to have success in
Johan:that position, you also have to be what is defined as a leader, and execute
Johan:leadership competencies because otherwise you really are just ticking boxes.
Johan:I've never seen that to be just a requirement.
Johan:So it's an interesting.
Johan:I see so many different options around what these two different things
Johan:should be and how they work together.
Johan:And I'm very curious.
Matthew:It'd be fair to say I have a different view of it.
Matthew:Let's talk about management first.
Matthew:Let's start there.
Matthew:So all organizations need some form of management and management
Matthew:provides a structure and it provides areas of responsibility.
Matthew:It's a conduit for communication and managers typically are the people that
Matthew:oversee tasks and having tasks started.
Matthew:Continued and finished, goals met sales quotas filled, whatever the case may be.
Matthew:So those are generally speaking the job of managers and managers can
Matthew:accomplish that in many different ways depending on their Their areas of
Matthew:responsibility and their personalities and their style and how they operate.
Matthew:And so to me, a lot of that style is confused with leadership.
Matthew:So it's for me that the issue there that people have is with style.
Matthew:As for the organization as a whole, I believe it's driven by its culture.
Matthew:And manage one of a manager's responsibilities is to be a monitor of and
Matthew:a carrier of the flag for the culture, but they don't set the culture because culture
Matthew:should be a large, big unifying idea.
Matthew:And you can have 5 different departments with 5 different
Matthew:managers setting their own cultures.
Matthew:Their job is to carry the one flag for the unifying culture.
Matthew:And if you do it right, it's your culture that runs the company.
Matthew:And all the managers do is make sure that's happening.
Matthew:Where does the culture come from?
Matthew:The culture is set by, generally speaking, by that large, big vision, that big idea.
Matthew:And who sets the big idea?
Matthew:That's the leader's job.
Matthew:The leader provides the big idea.
Matthew:The leader provides the umbrella under which everybody works, we'll say.
Matthew:The leader provides.
Matthew:The journey, the desk, the destination and the managers provide maintenance,
Matthew:support and influence for that idea.
Matthew:And the people who work in the departments in management or under
Matthew:management under the different levels.
Matthew:And that would include sub managers and whatever.
Matthew:They are the followers.
Matthew:They follow the idea.
Matthew:And those are the three ways I would describe it.
Matthew:And it's often, and it does often get confused.
Matthew:But what people always leave out is this idea of the vision.
Matthew:The idea that I'm going to take all of us from here to there.
Matthew:And you can't have two people doing that.
Matthew:You can't have three visions or seven visions or 11 D leaders
Matthew:all with their own visions.
Matthew:There's got to be one person or at least one small group,
Matthew:but generally it's a person.
Matthew:It's a person who hasn't, and the go to example is Steve jobs, right?
Matthew:He's the go to example.
Matthew:He had the vision, he provided the culture and he was an absolute dick.
Matthew:As anyone who knows the story knows, he was an unpleasant human being,
Matthew:but it didn't matter because he had managers who did all that stuff.
Matthew:He could sit above it and be the crap ass that he was, but his vision was so
Matthew:spectacular that it pulled everyone along.
Matthew:He was the leader.
Matthew:His managers weren't.
Matthew:So that's the way I would explain it.
Johan:If I can ask, maybe just to clarify from my perspective, what you're saying
Johan:is so you've got defined responsibilities.
Johan:So you've got a leader, and he creates the vision.
Johan:And that has got a specific set of competence around it.
Johan:And then they've got the managers in the various different structures
Johan:and organization and they execute on this vision on behalf and
Johan:under the guidance of the lead.
Johan:Is that correct?
Matthew:Yeah that's the way I would say it.
Matthew:I guess execute would be a word but, they carry the flag, they
Matthew:carry the flag for the thing and they all have to be dialed in.
Matthew:And they're the ones that transfer that energy to the people below them.
Matthew:You go to the weddings and they have all those, that stack of the champagne cups
Matthew:and they pour the champagne on the top.
Matthew:That's how it's to me.
Matthew:That's ideally.
Matthew:That's how it's supposed to work.
Matthew:All the champagne flows down.
Matthew:Does it work that way?
Matthew:Not very often.
Matthew:That's the challenge, right?
Matthew:To me, that is the ideals.
Matthew:That's the ideal in any event.
Muhammad:Matt, if I can comment here.
Muhammad:First of all, yes, I.
Muhammad:Have the same idea of the vision, and leader dictates that or share the
Muhammad:vision and inspires people because I'm probably the, one of those who carries
Muhammad:this flag of servant leadership a lot.
Muhammad:So that's set aside for a second, but you've said there's the manager.
Muhammad:So it could be, let's say in an org, you've got one leader.
Muhammad:So we forget him for a second because he's laid down the vision and he's bought these
Muhammad:five managers into that vision, right?
Muhammad:Now these managers now have to go ahead and expand that
Muhammad:vision further down the chain.
Muhammad:So isn't it that manager now becoming a leader for its own
Muhammad:small sub team, sharing that vision downward so people buy into that.
Muhammad:So isn't he's now, this person is now stepping into the role of being
Muhammad:a leader, but not the manager now.
Muhammad:Cause manager is okay, let's do this one, two, three, four, five.
Muhammad:We have to do it.
Muhammad:Let's go.
Muhammad:Let's do it.
Muhammad:In ideal scenario, then he or she should be selling this vision.
Muhammad:So the people of this sub team to buy in from them.
Muhammad:To go towards that common goal.
Matthew:My comment would be that depends on the structure of the organization.
Matthew:As a historical example I submit Napoleon, great leader, but many of his marshals
Matthew:Were leaders in their own right, and they could be leaders in their own right,
Matthew:because he carved his army into army core, and they were wholly independent,
Matthew:and they carried his vision, but since they operated independent of the whole.
Matthew:most of the time.
Matthew:They developed their own leadership qualities and history remembers
Matthew:a guy like Marshall Ney as a leader in his own right as well.
Matthew:So I think it depends a lot on your structure, but if you have a more
Matthew:closed structure, which is more typical of the corporate structure, then it's
Matthew:like too many cooks spoil the broth.
Matthew:Too many leaders is problematic.
Matthew:I would say, and that's not to say that they don't pop up.
Matthew:And develop, because you can get leaders pop out of a situation,
Matthew:take control of a situation.
Matthew:They're the right person at the right time at the right place.
Matthew:There's a situation.
Matthew:They recognize it, they seize it.
Matthew:They show people a way out of it.
Matthew:They are in that moment, leaders, but they are not the leader.
Matthew:And that leadership doesn't stay with them.
Matthew:It, they're only the leader in that moment.
Matthew:Once the crisis passes or the whatever and the organization
Matthew:continues it's usual path.
Matthew:They go back to being the very good managers that they were.
Matthew:And another issue just while I'm on it.
Matthew:Another issue is I have and you mentioned it, the leadership is
Matthew:just a word being thrown around all over the place these days.
Matthew:And it, it bothers me because it degrades managers.
Matthew:It's as if managers aren't good enough.
Matthew:You got to be a leader.
Matthew:No, damn, you don't have to be a leader.
Matthew:You can be a crackerjack manager.
Matthew:You can be a very great manager.
Matthew:And when Rob and I spoke about this before, I used the
Matthew:example of the Henry Ford.
Matthew:Now, Henry Ford there's an argument to be made that he was a leader,
Matthew:but Henry Ford II was not by any stretch of the imagination.
Matthew:No one would call Henry Ford II a leader.
Matthew:And yet he was a crackerjack manager.
Matthew:He, he built the company from when his father passed it to him.
Matthew:Now he did.
Matthew:do the Edsel, but he was a very good manager.
Matthew:And you look across corporate America today and then a lot of
Matthew:other smaller orgs private and not, and public, there's all kinds of
Matthew:people whose names you don't know.
Matthew:Tens and tens of thousands of them who are CEOs and they're
Matthew:absolutely fantastic at what they do.
Matthew:And if you're in certain industries like accounting, God help you if
Matthew:you're a leader in accounting or banking, because They're supposed
Matthew:to keep a low profile, right?
Matthew:That's the way the industry is.
Matthew:And yet the CEOs of a lot, the CEO of a large corporation accounting corporation
Matthew:is damn good at what he or she does.
Matthew:They're the best in the business.
Matthew:But they're not leaders, right?
Matthew:They're just very good managers, and it's okay to be an exceptional manager.
Matthew:And if there's one problem in business today, is there's a crisis in management.
Matthew:And the crisis is that we're not developing, and haven't been for a
Matthew:while, a lot of good middle management.
Matthew:And there's a lot of reasons for that, and that's a subject for another day.
Matthew:But it drives me nuts when I see everybody wants to be a leader, nobody wants to be
Matthew:a manager, when managers are so necessary, important, and in such short supply.
Matthew:It's way better to try to be a great manager than a great leader,
Matthew:because the world is your oyster.
Matthew:There just aren't enough great managers.
Matthew:Rant over.
Rob:Thank you.
Rob:Thank you for that, Matthew.
Rob:I see what you're saying in terms of Steve Jobs, Elon Musk as well is another
Rob:one that they had a very clear vision that he drove people that they left one
Rob:person in charge of an area and they were accountable and responsible for it.
Rob:They let went, left them to do their own things.
Rob:So in that sense, they were leading their own team, leading their own project.
Rob:But I think when you look at a lot of organizations, there may be 100,
Rob:150 years since the visionaries gone.
Rob:So if you look at Ford it's many years since Henry Ford's gone.
Rob:So that kind of leader who stands for something, who leads with
Rob:a vision often they've gone.
Rob:You then have managers managing the culture.
Rob:And what you've got is people who often are focused on next quarter's
Rob:earnings, it's about share price.
Rob:I think that when there is a lack of leadership, what you
Rob:then have is as it filters down.
Rob:You then have, because there's a lack of clear vision or purpose or defined
Rob:goals and vision from the organization, the, there becomes a power vacuum
Rob:that you create silos and you create department heads who then have power
Rob:struggles for their own personal visions.
Rob:And I think that's where we then get divided culture.
Rob:I see the ideal of the wedding shoots coming out.
Rob:When you've got strong leadership, then the leader at the top is like
Rob:the juice if you have a cordial.
Rob:There's a juice and as it filters down, it's going to become diluted.
Rob:So when you have a leader that isn't as strong as Steve Jobs who isn't as clear,
Rob:is that where the culture then becomes a problem when you have division and silos?
Rob:So I'd just like to chuck that in for discussion.
Matthew:Yeah, the the it does happen that the vision survives the
Matthew:visionary, and a good vision will.
Matthew:But boy, that's a big question, Rob, because the the fracturing
Matthew:of the vision or the, boy, it gets into so many issues here.
Matthew:One is the loss of the vision or the dilution of it.
Matthew:You also get into this idea of managers and management and just human beings
Matthew:being human beings and carving out their own fiefdoms and having their
Matthew:own personal relationship issues.
Matthew:And that all stuff happens.
Matthew:And then there's another issue that has to do with, in the last, I don't know, 20
Matthew:or 30 years, this slavery to the quarterly report and the share price kind of makes
Matthew:a vision pointless because why have one?
Matthew:All you're trying to do is drive a share price, right?
Matthew:Man, that's a big subject.
Matthew:That's a big subject.
Muhammad:It is indeed a very big subject because Rob, you just
Muhammad:ignited a debate here on this.
Muhammad:Here I fully resonate what Matthew is saying, and Rob, to your point, I can give
Muhammad:you a small example how this vision could be converted into toxicity because there's
Muhammad:a vacuum created, some poor decisions.
Muhammad:You've got teams who are based in like different regions, so let's say, for
Muhammad:example, Perspective, for argument's sake, a UK based team, a German based team,
Muhammad:a US based team, a Canada based team.
Muhammad:Everyone then creates their own vision on kind of direction.
Muhammad:And what happens is that because the leader was either a poor leader or a weak
Muhammad:leader or in corporate terms was voted out by the board and it was a vacuum.
Muhammad:What happened afterwards that company just lost his share price and it just
Muhammad:literally collapsed due to one bad decision made right at the top from
Muhammad:where the supposedly the vision should have originated and it creates obviously
Muhammad:toxicity, which is another big topic to discuss, but that's how I see it.
Muhammad:So again, going back to this point, like everything starts from the very top.
Muhammad:This is what I believe that anything that happens at the top has a
Muhammad:massive impact going down the chain.
Muhammad:And as we say that managers are either great managers or poor manager,
Muhammad:likewise, it is also to be a bad leader.
Muhammad:But to me, then I take an extra step here.
Muhammad:And I have been saying this quite out loud on LinkedIn as
Muhammad:well on various, posts as well.
Muhammad:Whenever there's a talk about bad leadership, I don't class
Muhammad:that person to be a leader then.
Muhammad:Because if the leader is making these bad decisions, it means that he or she
Muhammad:is not even sold into their own vision.
Muhammad:I'm not saying they're flawless, but that's how I take it, that
Muhammad:you cannot be a bad leader.
Muhammad:You are either a leader or you are not.
Rob:Just to clarify as in if you're a bad leader, no one follows,
Rob:therefore you're not a leader.
Rob:Is that
Muhammad:really what you are saying?
Muhammad:Exactly.
Muhammad:Because you lose respect.
Muhammad:That's how I see it because obviously I have some experiences,
Muhammad:and some people in my experience like lost their moral authority.
Muhammad:In the business, because you don't follow a bad example.
Muhammad:Oh, yeah.
Muhammad:A
Matthew:leader assumes followers.
Matthew:Lead is the root of leader.
Matthew:What are you leading?
Matthew:Are you leading sheep, toasters, or people?
Matthew:And if you don't have people following you, you are no leader, right?
Matthew:You're just in Mohammed's case, you're just a really bad manager, right?
Matthew:There's
Johan:other ways for that kind of structure to manifest.
Johan:We all hope that it's the romantic notion of somebody with a grand
Johan:vision and others who are inspired and enthusiastic about that vision and
Johan:they follow voluntarily and because they think they can contribute, but
Johan:then the reality in business is also there could be somebody at the top.
Johan:To find them as you will move simply through influence and fear rule the
Johan:roost and people still do what they're supposed to do, and you get results.
Johan:This is a very interesting conversation.
Johan:And I find myself thinking something that I've been thinking for a while.
Johan:And that is, could be sometimes caught up too much in contextual definitions.
Johan:What I mean by that is I really like what Matthew says in terms of there is
Johan:a person who takes the responsibility or the ownership to create the vision
Johan:and then you can get competing visions, others in the environment who says,
Johan:No, I don't agree, and they influence the board, they influence others, and
Johan:they try to get their agenda pushed.
Johan:That does not diminish leadership.
Johan:That just means there's a couple of guys who's fighting for the same position,
Johan:and it's trying to take that lead point.
Johan:So the way I work with guys is to try and get them out of the thinking just
Johan:practical context, if you will, between the definition of a leader and the
Johan:competencies required to act as a leader.
Johan:So organizationally.
Johan:It is defined that there is a head working organization where there were two heads,
Johan:two CEOs, and they worked well together.
Johan:But my understanding is typically that's not something that works.
Johan:Because the chairman is already a pain in the butt and, then the
Johan:CEO needs to manage the board and executives and everybody else.
Johan:So once you take the lead, it's your job, get the job done and
Johan:see where you want to take us.
Johan:Just on the point of vision, vision can endure, vision can also change.
Johan:If you take Apple as an example.
Johan:I don't think for a moment Tim Cook has changed the broad vision of
Johan:Apple, but the way he approaches that vision has been more to be different
Johan:than what Steve Jobs has been doing.
Johan:Jobs has always been innovation, kicking the bucket down the way, and
Johan:Tim has been more about, getting it sustainably done, making sure that it
Johan:can endure over a long period of time.
Johan:If you have different people in an organization, your example
Johan:earlier, you have different small teams, but at some point within
Johan:a team, a job needs to get done.
Johan:And the person who takes responsibility for that team, that component of the broad
Johan:organizational structure, they've got a contribution that they need to deliver.
Johan:And in some, at some point during the work that they do, they need
Johan:to display leadership competencies.
Johan:And at other points in the job they do, they need to display manager competencies.
Johan:A problem arises.
Johan:You can't then go to your checklist and say, okay, what do I do?
Johan:At least you're an airline pilot and they have to do that.
Johan:But for the most part, for the work that we do, you don't have
Johan:a checklist you can go and check.
Johan:You have to check with the team, guys, we've got a problem.
Johan:How do we've got to accomplish this.
Johan:We're not going to get there from here.
Johan:How do we think about this?
Johan:That displays leadership competencies.
Johan:And then once that is evaluated, some solutions, and then the
Johan:management competencies come back.
Johan:All right, now do we need to execute?
Johan:What do we need to do?
Johan:What do we need to plan?
Johan:What resources do we require?
Johan:Who is, etcetera.
Johan:And you guys all familiar with both sides of that point.
Johan:I'm of the opinion to summarize this, that there is definitely a case within
Johan:a broader organizational structure to define a leader and what they need to do.
Johan:And everybody else who follows that leader willingly.
Johan:All through a bit of encouragement.
Johan:But within everybody's job that they do, there is a requirement to at some
Johan:stage exhibit leadership competencies and also management competencies.
Johan:I don't think that only goes for managers, even the guys that are
Johan:working in the teams, they also need to manage themselves, manage the work
Johan:they do, manage the quality that they deliver, manage how they interact
Johan:and engage with those around them and with, those that they report to,
Johan:regardless of how we define them.
Johan:So it's the application of the competency, I think, within the broader
Johan:structure, as long as it complements the vision and not is not opposed.
Johan:That's where I think that's where the challenge really comes in.
Muhammad:Some valid points.
Muhammad:I agree because for instance there was a situation where one of my staff member
Muhammad:she stood up and said can I lead this team now in mean to, can I manage this team?
Muhammad:There was a difference because there was some tasks needed to be done or a project
Muhammad:needed to be handled and she wanted to just leave that project, lead the team.
Muhammad:But she also already had a manager on sitting on top of her.
Muhammad:So this is where I still stand on my point of view is that it's a mixture of both.
Muhammad:Even today, it was a bit controversial, but I posted about like introverts,
Muhammad:can leaders could be great managers, I still believe as you said it's more
Muhammad:like how you implement and execute your your skills or abilities to handle that
Muhammad:kind of scenario, which is building up.
Muhammad:Another small example I can give is that in one of my previous ventures,
Muhammad:I stepped out from the operations and then when I had to get back into
Muhammad:it, I walked into one of my units.
Muhammad:In that particular unit, I had about 117 people employed on my payroll and
Muhammad:on the shift I found them, 43 of them, and I fired 39 of them on the spot.
Muhammad:I wasn't the manager.
Muhammad:I wouldn't class myself as a leader because I was the MD of the business,
Muhammad:but I had to walk in and execute that.
Muhammad:And then what I did was I took on this responsibility.
Muhammad:So I went into the production line myself because I knew somebody
Muhammad:has to step up by doing this.
Muhammad:Obviously there was some other guys were called in to to work.
Muhammad:And I led this unit for at least three and a half weeks.
Muhammad:So leading from the front, then training these people.
Muhammad:So I was juggling the roles, being a manager.
Muhammad:Because I was doing scheduling, I was ensuring that, the deliveries are on
Muhammad:time and whatever agreements we have, we are adhering to those clauses.
Muhammad:And equally, I was trying to lead the team out of that kind of adversity, if
Muhammad:you like, because obviously they, so this is where, I started to believe in that.
Muhammad:Okay.
Muhammad:I can swap roles.
Muhammad:I can be a leader at one point.
Muhammad:I could be handling the tough board who is hungry for my neck.
Muhammad:And I can also sit with my people.
Muhammad:I can connect with them on an individual level.
Muhammad:And to me another important factor in that leadership capacity or a
Muhammad:managerial capacity, just like it's combination is that even if I'm
Muhammad:sitting, so let's say I'm an MD and I've got 400 odd people on my payroll.
Muhammad:The best thing when I, what I learned was that I could recognize each and
Muhammad:every single team member, regardless of which department they are.
Muhammad:I could remember their first name at least.
Muhammad:Okay.
Muhammad:I'm very poor in remembering the last names, but at least
Muhammad:I knew, okay, this is Rob.
Muhammad:This is Jessica.
Muhammad:This is Chrissy.
Muhammad:So this made me more connected with them.
Muhammad:I wasn't their manager and maybe I wasn't the leader either because they
Muhammad:hardly saw me on a day to day basis.
Muhammad:So this is what I expect from leaders, that if you want to sell the
Muhammad:vision, don't sell in the boardroom, sell to the public downwards.
Muhammad:And on one of my last consultancy venture, this is where I walked out of
Muhammad:the contract because I believe that the company's culture is not being how I
Muhammad:look at it is like an iceberg, right?
Muhammad:Saying something that visible, something that invisible.
Muhammad:And I spent way too much of time.
Muhammad:on the ground, connecting with people, understanding actually, what's going
Muhammad:on and what could be done because we had to implement some operational
Muhammad:efficiencies and I couldn't do it unless I understood the root cause.
Muhammad:So I found that and I presented to, the guys who hired me and I discussed
Muhammad:with them and I realized that they are just talking about numbers because
Muhammad:for them, everything is a number game, but this is not how I see leadership.
Muhammad:Leadership is that when you stand up for your people, you take the hate, even
Muhammad:if it means sacrificing your own job.
Muhammad:So that's to me a leadership.
Muhammad:I rest my case.
Matthew:Yeah, but that could also be a great manager.
Matthew:And I would expect in my company, I expected my managers to do just that.
Matthew:I expected them to do that.
Matthew:I expected them to defend their turf and defend their people and to be that
Matthew:wall between them and all the adversity above, I expected them to do that.
Matthew:But I didn't consider them all leaders because they did that, even though
Matthew:eventually one or two turned out to be good leaders in their own right.
Matthew:But that, these are part of things that all managers should have in them.
Matthew:Don't you think?
Muhammad:Yeah they should have it, but I think if we now let's zoom
Muhammad:back into, if I may clause this as.
Muhammad:More sort of ground reality here, right?
Muhammad:In practical terms, people are afraid to lose their jobs.
Muhammad:People are afraid of many other things.
Muhammad:People are very much afraid to put the neck on the line and where you
Muhammad:expect these managers to take the hit.
Muhammad:Defend the turf, as you mentioned, but that can be done as a leader, too.
Muhammad:So you're also defending and protecting your own people, right?
Muhammad:So it's not about who is managing, it's also actually who is giving
Muhammad:them the protection of the psychological safety, the culture.
Muhammad:element comes in, who is more better connected with the people on the ground.
Muhammad:I don't have to be classed as a manager or a leader.
Muhammad:I could be a team member who is probably, understand people's emotions.
Muhammad:I can talk to my team members and I can maybe also encourage them to do better
Muhammad:or do certain things in a different way.
Muhammad:So then which role I am in.
Muhammad:I'm not the manager.
Muhammad:I'm not the leader, but I have a huge influence on my team.
Muhammad:I'll
Johan:tell you what, if I can quickly just chime in here.
Johan:As interesting as the discussion is, as valuable as it will be to ensure that one
Johan:runs this through to a proper theoretical end, the consequence, and this touches
Johan:to something that Matthew raised earlier, is that it's one of the elements, at
Johan:least in my mind, that is causing a challenge for junior and middle, and I'd
Johan:suggest even senior managers these days.
Johan:If you look at the literature out there the last 10 years, and I'm talking Books,
Johan:written to LinkedIn, texting, anything in between blogs, videos, there are
Johan:so many different opinions about how should a leader be defined, how should
Johan:management be, et cetera, et cetera.
Johan:And what it causes practically is on the ground.
Johan:And I say this because, it's an end of two.
Johan:I've worked with two guys in middle management positions
Johan:recently, but I also recall.
Johan:My managers that used to report in to me in various different
Johan:organizations, they come to me and say, okay, so what do I need to do now?
Johan:Where should I focus?
Johan:So in a reporting structure, that's different because, we
Johan:know exactly what we need to do.
Johan:But now two guys come to me and say, I need help.
Johan:I'm confused.
Johan:I don't know whether I should spend more time on training and educating people as
Johan:leaders should do and creating the vision for them and helping them through their
Johan:career inspiration, or should I spend more time on making sure the team accomplishes
Johan:the goals that we have to do in order to further the organization's objective?
Johan:And I, my question then is always are you confused?
Johan:What are you getting paid for?
Johan:And there's two things that I think are critically.
Johan:I think the one is that I don't think managers as a whole and I'm talking
Johan:management as a position, not management as a competency, management as a position.
Johan:I don't think there's enough support for those guys in terms of learning really how
Johan:to be skillful at what they do and apply a host on different skills in order to
Johan:move their team and organization forward.
Johan:And secondly, this is not A little bit of my side, but I also don't think there's
Johan:enough support for those in the teams to be able to equip themselves and get to
Johan:the right level of competency that they can effectively support their manager
Johan:and actually do what they need to do.
Johan:The one guy I spoke with, I said, okay, show me what your
Johan:diary looks like for a week.
Johan:And I kid you not, four hours out of every day, four hours out of an eight
Johan:hour day, and that excludes lunch and such, he spent in one on one engagements.
Johan:With various different members of the team.
Johan:So he said, what do you actually talk about?
Johan:Yeah, that came to about 20 percent of the time.
Johan:They actually spoke about the work they were doing.
Johan:The other 80 percent was all about, what are you working on?
Johan:What are your personal goals?
Johan:Because that is what they, what he was informed from.
Johan:I'm sure a well intentioned person that, that's how you need to engage.
Johan:Because that's how you build that unity.
Johan:That's about that team, et cetera.
Johan:And that's all true.
Johan:The problem is that the real focus?
Johan:I'm not for a moment suggesting that they should neglect them.
Johan:I just want to be clear on that.
Johan:But where's the balance point?
Johan:And how do we make sure that the managers who are out there, millions and millions
Johan:of them who are trying to do a damn good job, that they are sure they can focus
Johan:on the right things and they've got the right support, the right structures
Johan:in order to achieve the results that they want to and need to achieve.
Johan:I think, Matthew, I'm tying into the point you raised earlier, but I also
Johan:have seen, that managers as a whole, they want to, but they're struggling and I'm
Johan:not sure that they have enough support to really effectively move forward.
Matthew:I think that's why there is this crisis in middle and you added
Matthew:junior and it has seeped upwards as well.
Matthew:It used to be if you could make it through middle management,
Matthew:it was like a test of strength.
Matthew:You could survive middle management, then you were going
Matthew:to be okay and upper management.
Matthew:But that's less and less true because middle management
Matthew:has been a mess for decades.
Matthew:And it's been a mess for decades, I think.
Matthew:And I'm just riffing on some of your thoughts here, and I think it's because
Matthew:of all the confusion that has been injected into that middle management
Matthew:role now and your example of your friend or coworker you were talking about.
Matthew:He had to ask what the hell am I supposed to do, I've got 40 hours worth of stuff.
Matthew:Everyone's asking me to do in a day, I'm spending four hours a day on
Matthew:pep talks because someone told me there's only so many hours in a day.
Matthew:And what's my role.
Matthew:And am I supposed to be that empathetic educational friend,
Matthew:or am I supposed to be that hard driving get to get the work done.
Matthew:Am I supposed to be what am I supposed to do here.
Matthew:If you look through the enough LinkedIn posts, there there's, my
Matthew:God, there's 500 things that a middle manager is supposed to do in a day.
Matthew:And touchy feely stuff and hard ass stuff and don't do this and do that and do that.
Matthew:Is it a wonder why middle management is such a mess, right?
Matthew:Because we've turned it into, we've held the business folks were
Matthew:working for profit based companies.
Matthew:You got to turn a profit man, and we've just turned them into babysitting
Matthew:clinics in a lot of cases, like we got to turn a profit here people.
Matthew:That's why we're here.
Matthew:If we don't turn a profit, we're all out.
Matthew:And then you got to go work for the bad guy down the street.
Matthew:So let's all get along.
Matthew:Let's work together.
Matthew:Let's, let's not be idiots about it.
Matthew:But boy, you just listening to your talk there I've never been in the corporate
Matthew:world, but I'll bet you that's just.
Matthew:Horrible, horrible in a large corporate setting, and
Johan:it is indeed the kind of my experience and it's
Johan:a very limited experience.
Johan:I don't suggest that I'm speaking for everybody in all cultures
Johan:and all periods of the world.
Johan:But I've seen a limited number of people who've actually been able to and
Johan:that's it's through good mentorship.
Johan:Actually, I've never seen somebody really just get to it by themselves.
Johan:Through good mentorship, being able to identify.
Johan:Okay, this is how we need to move forward.
Johan:And then they thrive and then they go.
Johan:But from colleagues and guys that I've just connected with awesome questions
Johan:from a research perspective or in bigger companies, I'm talking 20,
Johan:30, 000 employees across the world.
Johan:They've got these defined structures and I'm sure again, intentioned
Johan:HR and support and et cetera.
Johan:And for the most part.
Johan:They are following the advice of well respected people out there who promote
Johan:new methodologies, new ways of thinking, ways to really just not thrive even, but
Johan:survive in, in this modern business world.
Johan:That's just GPT calls it every day.
Johan:And.
Johan:And it's challenging.
Johan:And I think so.
Johan:I want to ask Rob a question quickly.
Johan:I'm just thinking about it now, but Rob, your specialization
Johan:is relationships, right?
Johan:And how much have you seen that the potentially a reduction in the
Johan:capability of forming effective relationships, both in the corporate
Johan:environment, as well as then You know, personally outside, how much
Johan:has that affected people's capability?
Johan:What stuff are we talking about?
Rob:Just to go back a moment between the lines of, so I'm listening and I'm not
Rob:an expert on leadership, but I understand people and I understand relationships.
Rob:And from that context, I look at leadership.
Rob:So I'm look intellectually and how it impacts people.
Rob:And what I see is the lines are blurred because I think what we're
Rob:doing in leadership, how we're distinguishing leadership is in taking
Rob:people from confusion to clarity.
Rob:And when you talk about the big organizations, there's a lot of confusion
Rob:because there is a lack of clear vision and because there's too many people
Rob:that I think the amount of people that we're dealing with is something that
Rob:challenges are biological capabilities.
Rob:When you look at Dunbar's numbers.
Rob:People have a limit of 150 people that they can maintain any kind of
Rob:relationship, 1500 that they're aware of.
Rob:And when you're talking about 20, 30, 000 pound, 30, 000 people organizations, it's
Rob:something we're biologically incapable of.
Rob:So I think when you look, when you bring that back down to relationships.
Rob:If you go back to the Industrial Revolution, it separated the way that
Rob:you earn your money from your home life.
Rob:So there's that separation, which is inherently stressful because we're
Rob:working and we're living in cities, which we're not designed for when
Rob:we haven't evolved that capability.
Rob:So it's inherently stressful.
Rob:You go into London and nobody looks at each other on the
Rob:train because it's overwhelming.
Rob:We know from environmental psychology that the more crowded you are, the
Rob:more stressed people are, the more aggression that people have, the
Rob:more hostility that people have.
Rob:So all of this is impacting relationships.
Rob:It comes at a time when our relationship models haven't changed.
Rob:You can tell me if I'm answering your question right, but what I see is we've,
Rob:we don't have a relationship model and whether you're managing or whether you're
Rob:leading, you are reliant on relationships.
Rob:The culture is, yeah, it's set by the vision, but ultimately it's
Rob:the purity of it is the levels of interactions between people.
Rob:And when people don't know, so when you create these organizations that
Rob:create these silos and there's power vacuums, and there's all this kind
Rob:of toxicity that comes, which I think is inherent in a bigger organization,
Rob:is then you have you've created the dynamics where relationships lack
Rob:trust, they lack safety people are stressed, everyone's out for themselves.
Rob:So if you look at what comes to mind is the alpha myth, like the whole
Rob:alpha male role model, which I think a lot of old leadership came from.
Rob:If you're not a good leader, it's because you're not an alpha male.
Rob:And actually the whole alpha male.
Rob:study, I'm not sure if you're aware, but it was they took wolves in captivity.
Rob:And the author of the book, he wrote it in the 70s and someone
Rob:prominent in the White House pushed that myth, which popularized it.
Rob:And everyone got involved in, yeah, you got to be an alpha male.
Rob:And the authors spent 20 years trying to retract that saying it's not right.
Rob:The research was flawed because wolves live in family units.
Rob:The pack is the family unit.
Rob:They don't fight.
Rob:When one is old enough, they'll leave the pack and make their own pack.
Rob:And what they'd done is they put all these strange wolves together in captivity.
Rob:So naturally, there was no bond.
Rob:They all were all fighting for dominance, power, creates access to resources.
Rob:So in the same way that captivity creates unnatural behavior, our
Rob:organizations create unnatural behavior.
Rob:And so we're asking managers or leaders to manage cultures to create
Rob:cultures that aren't toxic, to create get people to follow our agendas,
Rob:to pursue a purpose and a goal.
Rob:And yet managers don't know, they don't have a working knowledge of relationships.
Rob:And this is what I'm trying to do is put like standard operating procedures so that
Rob:people know what is a good relationship.
Rob:How do you create what drives a relationship?
Rob:How do you deal with conflict?
Rob:But there is very little information on that out there.
Rob:And so we're asking leaders, as well as being technical experts to be people
Rob:experts and that's a lot to to cover.
Rob:So I'm not sure if that answers exactly your question, but
Rob:there's some more to think about.
Johan:The content I sometimes think about is that fundamentally, if you
Johan:think about the modern workplace, whether you've got a team of five people or
Johan:whether there's 20, 000 people in the environment it doesn't really differ.
Johan:Conceptually that much from the villages, you know that humans lived in 10, 000
Johan:years ago when they started farming, when they started grouping together,
Johan:there's still some sort of a hierarchy.
Johan:There's still somebody who takes accountability to, to distribute
Johan:resources to ensure that people are safe, health, security, negotiate with
Johan:neighboring but it just it's actually, and that constructs that exist.
Johan:That's the business involved, and if people got it right, I don't know,
Johan:but, people got it right in terms of relationships and how they interact,
Johan:engage, promote, and work with each other.
Johan:over a period of a couple of millennia what has caused us to
Johan:lose that, if I could suggest that capability where we are now.
Rob:I think that what Richard Branson and the Steve Jobs and a
Rob:lot of leaders have intuitively known is they've kept units small.
Rob:And so they've kept them, so they are tribes and, but the human construct
Rob:of how we operate is based on tribes.
Rob:So we tend to be tribal, and this is why silos become quite natural,
Rob:because the silos of today are like the village tribes, where there
Rob:was a tension between them before.
Rob:Yeah so while they're like that, but I think what can happen is a
Rob:lot of big organizations trying to get too many people together without
Rob:considering those human constraints.
Johan:I wanted to just ask, based on what Rob was saying, I see from
Johan:the information, like a little bit of reading on your profile.
Johan:But you indicated you had 72 locations across the country for the company
Johan:that you bought or something like that.
Johan:That must have been quite a challenging environment to ensure that you can manage
Johan:and lead that the way that you want it to.
Johan:Which of these principles worked and which that you find within your
Johan:environment to, to not be so successful.
Matthew:It's pretty much the way I outlined it on the top.
Matthew:We had 72 stores and they were spread out about 2, 500
Matthew:kilometers between the furthest.
Matthew:And they were in three national cultures and two different languages.
Matthew:And so the challenges were enormous and they had to be solved.
Matthew:And the way I The way we solved it was through this idea of having a unified
Matthew:culture and then having the middle managers be the shepherds of the culture.
Matthew:And then the individual store managers be the executors of the culture.
Matthew:And we just depended a lot.
Matthew:On the culture, doing the work, and if we put the culture in right, then
Matthew:people would always know what they were supposed to do when they were supposed to
Matthew:do it, how they were supposed to do it.
Matthew:And the general idea would be there and it would just managers
Matthew:would just have to do the details.
Matthew:Make the schedule and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Matthew:And they would more become conduits of communication than drivers of
Matthew:things because it was the culture.
Matthew:And that was very hard to do.
Matthew:And we weren't always successful, but that was the goal.
Matthew:And we gave the each store as much autonomy as we could we used to think
Matthew:of ourselves as privateers and Navy privateers where we were all, we're all
Matthew:going in the same direction, but everybody was getting there on their own boat,
Matthew:and And like I said, that worked for us.
Matthew:It helped us build when you're trying to when you're building
Matthew:a new location, and you have to install a new culture from scratch.
Matthew:That's a very hard thing to do.
Matthew:And we did that in various different ways, but when it worked great.
Matthew:And then once we went to a new city, say, and we then we'd spider out in a city.
Matthew:We'd have a location in Quebec city say, and if we could get that
Matthew:one up and running properly, then you just clone people off of it.
Matthew:Who have bought in and then eventually you have what do we
Matthew:have 5 or 6 stores in that area?
Matthew:And then that was enough to clone up a manager, an area
Matthew:supervisor who came up who already.
Matthew:Was carrying the flag, and that's the kind of way we did it.
Matthew:We were very deliberate about how we expanded.
Matthew:We established a beachhead, expanded out, and we did that because of the culture.
Matthew:We were very culture driven.
Matthew:We let the culture do all the work for us once we got it established.
Matthew:Much harder than it sounds.
Johan:Sorry, one follow up question, if you don't mind, then it's also, it's
Johan:really just because the word culture is sometimes one that even has more
Johan:different definitions than leadership and management for your organization.
Johan:The culture, how would you have to find what is included?
Johan:How would you define the culture?
Johan:From a, it's called an operating system perspective, if you will.
Matthew:The definition I use for culture is the shared ideas and
Matthew:experience ideas and experiences of a.
Matthew:People in a group that, that, that is the culture, their
Matthew:shared ideas and experiences.
Matthew:And if you do nothing, if you do nothing, and I know this from opening new stores,
Matthew:if you do nothing there's a culture.
Matthew:Any group, five people waiting at a bus stop have a culture.
Matthew:It's the waiting at a bus stop culture.
Matthew:And if you think about it, you've waited at a bus stop, you know what
Matthew:to do and what not to do, right?
Matthew:You know how to behave in the waiting for the bus.
Matthew:Everybody does.
Matthew:That's the culture talking to you.
Matthew:And there's always a culture and all you're trying to do
Matthew:is influence and shape it.
Matthew:You can't create it.
Matthew:It's already there.
Matthew:You're trying to influence it and shape it.
Matthew:And so that's what we tried to do was influence it and shape it.
Matthew:How do you do that?
Matthew:You do that through your management upwards by example.
Matthew:And you do that by symbols.
Matthew:You do it by routines.
Matthew:You do it by tradition.
Matthew:You do it a multitude of different ways.
Matthew:And if you get it right it, it looks after itself.
Matthew:It's just like that bus stop.
Matthew:You don't have to keep telling people over and over how to wait for a bus.
Matthew:Everybody just intuitively knows.
Matthew:And if you can get that, get there, then the culture runs the store, right?
Matthew:The people themselves are their own referees, right?
Matthew:They know what to do and what not to do.
Matthew:That's the way we approached it.
Matthew:As I say, it was very hard.
Matthew:It took a lot of work, took a long time to develop, and we weren't
Matthew:always successful because as Rob will knows full well, people are complex.
Matthew:Humans are complex.
Matthew:Relationships are complex and he's made some really good points, which I
Matthew:jotted down here about the institutions and the shape of institutions and our
Matthew:human struggle with them and whatever.
Matthew:And, as he was outlining those things, I was thinking back
Matthew:to some of my experiences and that, yeah, damn, that's true.
Matthew:That's very true.
Matthew:People do struggle with new organizations and the shapes of artificially
Matthew:shaped communities and things.
Matthew:And I saw that every day.
Matthew:So it's a very hard thing to do, but it's very worth it when you can do it.
Rob:I like to look at a natural analogy and for culture we have a
Rob:natural analogy of gut bacteria.
Rob:And so there's a constant battle between negative bacteria and positive bacteria.
Rob:And it's which outweighs.
Rob:And so there's and also if you look at, I love to read stuff from
Rob:anthropologists and they look at a culture and there's a logic to every culture.
Rob:So it's one theory is that Egypt was the biggest, earliest
Rob:civilization because of the Nile.
Rob:And so there's a reason.
Rob:And if we look at, When you mention queuing it is wherever English
Rob:Western cultures, wherever there is a, we just naturally form queues,
Rob:but I know that there's other cultures where they don't queue.
Rob:And it's where like we go to another culture and they're like, excuse
Rob:me, can you just get in line?
Rob:I was here first.
Rob:There's a logic.
Rob:And I think.
Rob:When you, what you've done is be very deliberate and you had a perspective
Rob:and a way of this is what works.
Rob:And I think that part of that is part of the leader's job is to strongly
Rob:formulate a perspective so that culture then guides the people who come
Rob:later because and what's critically.
Rob:important is the leader starts, but going back to a point made
Rob:earlier, if no one follows the leader, it doesn't create a culture.
Rob:And it's the second and the third and the fourth, which I think is what you
Rob:were talking about in the way that you built up your culture, Matthew.
Rob:So there's a lot Involved in that culture and it's a constant battle
Rob:to keep the culture positive.
Muhammad:Can I just throw in a comment and a follow up question
Muhammad:here then, because we're on the topic of culture isn't a culture
Muhammad:based on the human connections.
Muhammad:There has to be a a group right beat on a bus stop beat in a office space.
Muhammad:How do you guys see culture developing in this.
Muhammad:new work from home and hybrid environment, where the majority of the
Muhammad:businesses now are entirely remote.
Muhammad:I personally am involved in some startups or some businesses.
Muhammad:They don't have any physical one location because they're
Muhammad:all scattered across the globe.
Muhammad:So how do you see culture forming in that particular environment?
Matthew:Myself I'm withholding judgment because it's very early
Matthew:in the game and it's going to take a while for this to wash out.
Matthew:But my hunch is, and I'm, I'd be curious to know how Rob thinks about this.
Matthew:My hunch is that it's going to be very damaging to the ability for human beings.
Matthew:To form the kinds of relationships, the shared experiences and ideas that cultures
Matthew:really require to be strong and good.
Matthew:And like I said, it's going to be a while before we can know.
Matthew:Whether this sort of thing is true or not it's very early in the game, but
Matthew:my, I suspect, and I'm really curious to know what Rob thinks about this,
Matthew:but I suspect that remote work is very alien to the human experience.
Matthew:And it's, and it's going to be challenging for the traditional ways we build and form
Matthew:relationships, the types of relationships we have and the kinds of cultures that
Matthew:come out of those shared relationships.
Matthew:My personal short answer is, I don't know, but those are the
Matthew:kinds of things I'm watching.
Matthew:How say you Rob?
Rob:So I think there's a direct analogy.
Rob:And that analogy is relationships and dating.
Rob:So we live in a time where there are more single people saying that they
Rob:can't find anyone when we have access to more single people than ever before.
Rob:It's never been easier to meet another partner.
Rob:And yet.
Rob:What's happened is dating apps have changed everything and people, so
Rob:then people always find a reason for their anxiety and fear and they
Rob:say you can't have relationships now because all people want sex and
Rob:they can just get that on an app and nobody wants a relationship anymore.
Rob:Nobody wants to put in the effort.
Rob:And I remember Helen Fisher being asked by this, and she's an anthropologist
Rob:and a neurobiologist, I think and she said, no, actually, relationships
Rob:are something that people need.
Rob:People have three drives, and they have a sex drive to get
Rob:out there and meet people.
Rob:They have a romantic drive to focus on one.
Rob:And then they have a deep companionate drive that they want someone to be
Rob:with, someone to share their life with.
Rob:Those drives don't change, but what changes is the way
Rob:that they get fulfilled.
Rob:And so I think you see a lot of toxicity in dating because that what
Rob:happens is we don't talk directly.
Rob:The communication, and this is something that we talked about, Johan,
Rob:in our talk, is you talked about how there's a separation in culture
Rob:of communicating less directly.
Rob:What happens in dating is there is much more ghosting.
Rob:There is much more kinds of behavior that are demeaning to people, that we treat
Rob:people as commodities rather than people.
Rob:And so what I can see is people will want to work I, and I think.
Rob:I see the industrial revolution, and we've talked about this Matthew, the industrial
Rob:revolution changed the way people were.
Rob:It created this artificial world.
Rob:Now, I think we're in a second revolution where we're living a digital life.
Rob:And that digital life means that we now have to recreate what were real.
Rob:In person relationships, we need to create them digitally.
Rob:So none of us have ever met in person, but yet we're able to relate.
Rob:And so it's a different type of connection.
Rob:So my guess Is that you're going to have a lot more toxicity in corporations
Rob:because it's going to be easier.
Rob:And this is what you said, Johan.
Rob:So you may have some insight on this is it's going to be easier to ghost people.
Rob:It's going to be easier to avoid conflict.
Rob:It's going to be easier to hide resentments, and there's going to be a
Rob:lot more silent conflict and resistance.
Rob:But overall, I think somehow we'll work it out because I think in talking to a couple
Rob:of people about, like Sandy yesterday and there's another one coming up with
Rob:Wandemar is in talking about Gen Z.
Rob:This is the generation that have grown up in social media.
Rob:They communicate through social media, so I think eventually will,
Rob:it will become natural, but I think there's a good few decades where
Rob:we're going to have to work out.
Rob:And I think that's where we're going to have a refined sense
Rob:of Emotional intelligence and much better communication.
Rob:I think Johan, you might have some insights as well.
Johan:It's a fascinating subject.
Johan:And there's a gentleman called, I'm going to absolutely butcher his name.
Johan:And I apologize, Gleb Tepsesky.
Johan:New York Times calls him The Office Whisperer, and his focus has been on
Johan:helping large organizations mitigate risk and impact relating to remote
Johan:and hybrid remote work environments.
Johan:And he's had some very interesting insights about the structure.
Johan:One of the things that I've read, it's also been thought that stuck
Johan:in my mind is context matters.
Johan:So when we talk Potentially, and I'm just sharing opinion.
Johan:This is not based in any kind of own research or direct experience.
Johan:But I would suggest that if we're talking about intimate relations, I'm not talking
Johan:about, sex and love, but, me and my wife, or a person with whom you are connected
Johan:on a romantic level that requires A very specific level of engagement
Johan:and a long term I suggest there's a reason for it because, you require that
Johan:physical presence and that contact.
Johan:We're in a work environment, if it's a long term, there's people still who work
Johan:20, a corporation, if they don't meet any of their colleagues directly, you never
Johan:built that, that close understanding and Close engagement that you probably will.
Johan:If it's that we used to do, when we had to be in office every day and
Johan:go back home, there's a different level of camaraderie, different level
Johan:of interaction that happens there.
Johan:The thing that I've been worrying about, though, is I think what
Johan:many guys are worried about is not necessarily again, this is just
Johan:me trying to Connect the dots.
Johan:It's not necessarily the capability of people to work remotely when it's
Johan:needed and their ability to perform.
Johan:The studies that have been done seem to indicate that when people are working
Johan:remotely, they seem to be more productive.
Johan:They seem to be more engaged.
Johan:They seem to have more joy and final meaning.
Johan:Now again, the stuff is, it's people providing feedback and there's all
Johan:kinds of biases that one needs to take into account and you need to normalize
Johan:the data and find some way to make it credible in an objective manner.
Johan:But overall, it seems to be the trends that come out.
Johan:Now, if you do that in the work environment and you can do that for
Johan:people, if you're worried about how individuals are going to perform, then I
Johan:suggest the real challenge here is that organizations are worried, comes back
Johan:to the point we discussed earlier, that it's the people who manage those remote
Johan:teams who might lack the capability, and Matthew, this is where you helped me
Johan:finalize the puzzle in my mind, help to effectively build culture within the team
Johan:and for the organization, it still works.
Johan:And that's what I suspect the big challenge might be because for
Johan:the definition that we've put together on it earlier, that really
Johan:just encapsulates everything.
Johan:So here's the hypothesis.
Johan:If you have.
Johan:the right culture within that team.
Johan:So their ideas and experiences are shared and they execute and
Johan:think intuitively in the same way.
Johan:Then it should lead that the execution, the way that they
Johan:deliver should be sufficient, and be able to take things forward.
Johan:That culture needs to be managed.
Johan:By the person who manages that team and environment.
Johan:And if that person has the right capabilities to do then potentially
Johan:the concern around will people perform can we be effective is removed.
Johan:So I think the challenge that they're trying to answer is we don't know
Johan:what culture is going to exist.
Johan:We are unable to manage it.
Johan:We don't know the people whom we trust to manage it actually have the capability.
Johan:And what they don't say is we don't know how to help them.
Johan:Yeah, the other thing is, if we look at what's happening in the world right
Johan:now, most big companies and even the smaller companies, even the ones like
Johan:Cape Town, they all bring people back.
Johan:And if I look at what traffic looks like at seven o'clock in
Johan:the morning, it looks like pre COVID, there's no differentiation.
Johan:Everybody's back in the office.
Johan:Here and there, there are remote workers re fully remote work.
Johan:I read this the other day from an HR staff, fully remote work
Johan:is actually disappearing rapidly.
Johan:Not completely disappearing, but it's reducing rapidly.
Johan:Because it's not necessary anymore.
Johan:Companies don't believe they have to subscribe to it.
Johan:Will it become the paradigm somewhere in the future?
Johan:I don't think there's any argument against that.
Johan:I think undoubtedly, but it probably won't happen in the next two years, maybe not
Johan:even the next five years until Rob, and I think you raise a good point there.
Johan:The guys who are currently your teens and early twenties, once they start moving
Johan:into those higher management executive positions and big corporations, and
Johan:they bring, everybody else who's been 20 years, they haven't been born yet even,
Johan:but it's that generation of culture that they Being brought up with that may change
Johan:the dynamic for the struggles that we, and I consider myself at all time here,
Johan:we used to go to the office, clocking in at eight, clocking out at five, to me,
Johan:it's, I still feel sometimes that I'm not getting in a full day, despite the fact
Johan:that I clocked out from 14 hour days, looking for my other office, I'm not in
Johan:the office, so there's that, I'm still getting used to it five years later.
Johan:So I think we need to adapt at some point.
Johan:Yeah,
Muhammad:It's interesting.
Muhammad:And I just want to share something because working from home or remote working,
Muhammad:I'm not passing any judgment on this.
Muhammad:I have my opinion, but I still won't pass the judgment here
Muhammad:in one of my last venture.
Muhammad:So I had a set of people who were, and this is by the
Muhammad:way, guys, pre COVID, right?
Muhammad:So there were situations before as well, when we had people, in different regions.
Muhammad:Yeah.
Muhammad:I had a team of about 11 in Sofia, in Bulgaria, I've got four people who
Muhammad:were based out of England, and about seven were based out of Bratislava.
Muhammad:And everyone had their own tasks, things are very smooth, etc.
Muhammad:Until the point I realized that there is a bit of a tension building
Muhammad:up or the ghosting, or, people are just keeping inside them.
Muhammad:And somehow, I came to know about certain things or some
Muhammad:gossips that move around, right?
Muhammad:So Mohammed's team is doing that, or, Mark's team is doing that.
Muhammad:And I've talked to myself that I have to step in and sort this out.
Muhammad:I won't be sitting with them and, telling them what to do.
Muhammad:I'm just going to bring them under one roof.
Muhammad:And that's what I did.
Muhammad:I arranged everyone to fly into England.
Muhammad:I rented a big house there in close to Coventry.
Muhammad:And I brought them everyone in.
Muhammad:Everyone had their own room.
Muhammad:Everyone had a space to work.
Muhammad:I didn't say anything.
Muhammad:I just left them at their own disposal.
Muhammad:Everyone was doing tasks and everything.
Muhammad:And I told them that they're going to be staying here for a month.
Muhammad:So they had time to prepare their meal together.
Muhammad:They had time to, share laundry, doing laundries together etc.
Muhammad:Believe me, in three weeks time, When I walked, obviously I was going
Muhammad:there on a daily basis, but I felt the warmth, the tolerance that has
Muhammad:built up before Yohan and Muhammad doesn't want to speak to each other.
Muhammad:But now they're having a laugh.
Muhammad:They're having a pint of beer sitting in the garden and having a fag with me.
Muhammad:And this is how I managed to overcome.
Muhammad:So the human connection still for me on a personal level is so crucial here.
Muhammad:As I said, I'm not passing judgment.
Muhammad:What Matthew said, like it's going to take some time to understand, but that's
Muhammad:what practical application brought results and immediate, within a month job
Rob:done.
Rob:I think that could be the way of the moving forward, because I look at
Rob:a lot of entrepreneurs what they'll do is they'll be in programs and
Rob:they'll be in like 90 day retreats.
Rob:And so they get together, they get a clear vision and then
Rob:they go away and then they go.
Rob:And I think that would probably work with the idea of projects
Rob:and sprints and things that.
Rob:People have a, like they come together, they get the sense of purpose, the
Rob:camaraderie and then they go away and then they have a chance to come back at it.
Rob:Before we go I'm just interested, Mohamed, Matthew's shared his model,
Rob:but you also were responsible for building a sizable organization.
Rob:In terms of culture, how did you manage, or did you have a difference
Rob:in order to compare and contrast with Matthew's Methodology.
Muhammad:No, I would say it's very similar to what Matthew described
Muhammad:and that's exactly how I did.
Muhammad:The very first unit obviously was a.
Muhammad:Test and trial and learning for me as well.
Muhammad:Hiring people.
Muhammad:And of course we made a lot of mistakes.
Muhammad:We have made some terrible hiring.
Muhammad:I'm using the word terrible, reflection did some bad call outs, but two and a
Muhammad:half years later, we were in a position to understand, okay, what works and
Muhammad:what doesn't, when we should hire.
Muhammad:And, obviously there was a vision, obviously from day
Muhammad:one, we wanted to capture it.
Muhammad:London and then expand, outwards shop two when we open, it was a lot better.
Muhammad:I wouldn't say it was easier as I'm sure Matthew would second that, but
Muhammad:there were different challenges, not what we had experienced before.
Muhammad:And I think in my person, when we reached the number 26th or 7th,
Muhammad:that's where we thought that, okay, you know what, we've mastered it.
Muhammad:Now we're just replicating.
Muhammad:So we had a few office managers who, joined us as supervisors.
Muhammad:Now they've moved up the rank and they understand the culture.
Muhammad:They know the mission, they know what to drive and they become
Muhammad:good training managers, et cetera.
Muhammad:So in my experience in that org, at the point of exit, I knew there was a very
Muhammad:solid foundation and it won't collapse because If I get out, things shouldn't
Muhammad:crumble because that's not what the new investors have, bought the business for.
Muhammad:And I was very certain that it will work and it worked.
Muhammad:And again, we had to establish processes, procedures the SOPs, as you like.
Muhammad:And what I also felt useful and beneficial is.
Muhammad:documentation, obviously, first two, three, so we know what the documents
Muhammad:are, what you need to do, why you need to add everything, but then we quickly
Muhammad:realized that even back in the days when we used to have cash transactions, right?
Muhammad:Cards were marginal, but every night, I used to drive around my shops
Muhammad:and just collecting cash, with the hope that I don't get mugged, on my
Muhammad:way to the car that's how it was.
Muhammad:Then I realized, no, I can do better.
Muhammad:So that's when the documentation comes, okay, what's the cash handling procedure,
Muhammad:how is it, was it like a check and balance on the safety deposit safes, which you put
Muhammad:in installed, obviously made a mistake.
Muhammad:Like we put a bit lighter one, they got.
Muhammad:stolen, we then had to put something different.
Muhammad:And for instance, Rob and I had to countersign the amount which
Muhammad:is being deposited in the safe, so it's all about learning as you grow.
Muhammad:And then after a certain time, it was culturally acceptable, right?
Muhammad:That I can be checked on my way out.
Muhammad:So it became a kind of a norm.
Muhammad:So people would not say, even one day, I got stopped by my own employee because
Muhammad:she was just following the rules.
Muhammad:I said, Nope, sir.
Muhammad:I need to check your bag.
Muhammad:And I was like, okay, there you go.
Muhammad:I felt very happy inside.
Muhammad:Well done.
Muhammad:The manager, who was running that shop that well done.
Muhammad:So you train your people very well.
Muhammad:So yeah.
Muhammad:But Rob said completely, in alignment with him, it's, it takes years
Muhammad:of efforts to build a culture.
Muhammad:It takes one bad decision or a bad leader, so to speak, to destroy everything.
Rob:I'm conscious that we're coming up to time.
Rob:So I'm just thinking if we maybe take a minute each to share.
Rob:The idea of this is we got some great brains here.
Rob:And just being able to share ideas and perspectives and differences
Rob:hopefully helps us refine our thinking.
Rob:I'll go first, for me what it's done, it's really clarified in that the lines between
Rob:leader and manager are quite blurry.
Rob:And I think.
Rob:We need to manage where there's clarity and we need to lead
Rob:where there is confusion.
Rob:And that is really the role that we need to be able to, whichever role it is,
Rob:whether manager, leader is the awareness of what is needed from the group.
Matthew:I zeroed in on Johan's when he was talking about I mentioned it
Matthew:before talking about this manager he was talking to that was just
Matthew:overwhelmed with direction or lack of it.
Matthew:And I got thinking about this idea of management clutter and how much
Matthew:of it is piling up and how much we're asking managers to do and
Matthew:how much they can physically or emotionally or psychologically do.
Matthew:And I thought that was a tremendous comment and right at the end there,
Matthew:Muhammad got talking about how he ran his stores and be his fellow store person.
Matthew:I would have probably talked another 2 hours with Mohammed on how you run
Matthew:stores because I love that stuff.
Matthew:But anyway, thanks guys.
Matthew:I really appreciate it tremendously.
Muhammad:What I'm taking away from this conversation is actually it reinforces the
Muhammad:point of a very weak middle management.
Muhammad:I know the discomfort between leaders and managers.
Muhammad:I think that's probably it's still in the kind of a very blurry as Rob you described
Muhammad:it, but it reinforces that we still need to do a lot more on the middle tier.
Muhammad:I came across a post today as well about this.
Muhammad:So there are people who are now reflecting this, and I think there's
Muhammad:probably more needs to be done.
Muhammad:And this is our job to raise awareness and at least in our control, what
Muhammad:we have our own organization, we should do a better job.
Johan:My real single thought I take from this is just being able
Johan:to finalize that earlier that sort of puzzle that I've been grounded.
Johan:So I realized that managers are under a lot of pressure.
Johan:I don't know if I said it in the chat as well, a lot of pressure.
Johan:I don't think they have enough support.
Johan:And one of the things I've been trying to figure out is.
Johan:Should one focus on a single item to start building that competency, and that could
Johan:then lead potentially to other things.
Johan:And there's two things that I did not count enough.
Johan:One, the one is the impact of a sensible Culture within that team.
Johan:And then the thing that I really have not given enough thought is how important
Johan:relationships between the people in a team is to actually stabilize and then
Johan:enforce and evolve that culture into something that creates not drives.
Johan:Not managers, but creates the results almost accidentally, but that might be
Johan:too much of an even romanticized hope.
Johan:An ideal situation potentially where you have.
Johan:Where the environment, the relationships, the way that people interact, the
Johan:way they get supported, encouraged, the leadership that they get just
Johan:infuses the right culture into, what they do and how they operate,
Johan:which then drives the appropriate.
Johan:Outcome for that team and that organization, those two components.
Johan:I continuously misappreciate, just want to appreciate just how valuable that
Rob:Thank you.
Rob:Thank you, everyone.
Rob:It's been fascinating again.
Rob:All three of you have wonderful content thought provoking ideas,
Rob:and it's been a pleasure to be able to pick everyone's brains and to
Rob:refine my thinking and understanding.
Rob:So thank you all for being a part of it and for sharing your wisdom
Rob:so openly and so generously.
Rob:Thank you.
Rob:Thanks Rob.
Rob:Great
Johan:pleasure.
Johan:Thank you for having us.
Johan:Thanks Gents.
Johan:Cheers.
Johan:Best
Muhammad:bye guys.
Muhammad:Thank you.
Muhammad:Cheers.