Bitcoin is not black and white, on the ground, it is always gray.

In this Orange Hatter episode, Elena, a first generation Venezuelan/Cuban American, discusses her interest in Bitcoin. She shares her journey into the understanding and adoption of Bitcoin which started with attending a digital currency class in grad school and leading a research paper on crypto-adoption in Venezuela. Elena strongly advocates Bitcoin as a transformative technology that fosters voluntary participation and consensus building. She also draws a parallel between Bitcoin and social change, highlighting how it can be an escape hatch for countries in economic crisis like Venezuela. However, Elena stresses on the importance of perspective and acknowledges the multi-faceted nature of such transformative technologies. Towards the end, Elena offers tips for women interested in Bitcoin, encouraging them to overcome intimidation, align exploration with personal interest, find friends in the sphere, and most importantly, realize that contributing to the Bitcoin conversation does not require complete buy-in.

00:03 Introduction and Overview

00:48 Welcome to Orange Hatter: A Bitcoin Retreat for Women

02:18 Interview with Elena: Personal Background

02:38 Elena's Cultural Background and Family Life

06:21 Elena's Perspective on Immigrant Communities

23:21 Elena's Journey into the World of Bitcoin

25:41 Elena's Research on Bitcoin Adoption in Venezuela

44:45 Elena's Advice for Women Interested in Bitcoin

49:20 Conclusion and Farewell

*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

Mentioned in this episode:

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A Bitcoiner adage, fix the money, save the world.

2

If it was that simple I think that

would be an awesome circumstance,

3

but I just suspect that it's

more complicated than that.

4

The bigger narrative around Venezuela

in particular is truly heartbreaking

5

collapse of a country, of an economy

and a huge diaspora of people who

6

have had to leave their country.

7

When I talk to my parents and

my family about Venezuela,

8

that's what we talk about.

9

That issue is harder to define,

harder to solve, harder to talk about.

10

And this interesting

technology is the footnote.

11

But the bigger story is what happened

to this country and what does this

12

look like for the next generation?

13

Tali: Hey everybody.

14

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

15

Aleia: Hello listeners.

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Thank you for tuning in and

here's to empowering your

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path in the world of Bitcoin.

42

We can't wait to welcome you.

43

Tali: Hi, Elena.

44

Thank you so much for

joining us on Orange Hatter.

45

It's awesome to have

you on the show today.

46

Elena: Thank you for having me, Tali.

47

I cannot wait to jump

into this discussion.

48

I've been listening to Orange

Hatter, and I'm just really

49

grateful for the opportunity to

share my story with you guys.

50

Tali: Awesome.

51

Let's go over your personal background.

52

What would you like to

share with our audience?

53

Elena: Yeah, I'll start with

a little bit of background.

54

So I grew up in Texas.

55

I have lived in California and New York

for school, and I recently moved back to

56

Texas so that my family and my daughter,

we could be closer to our extended family.

57

So a little bit about me.

58

I don't come from a technical

background, even though I work in

59

this pretty technical industry.

60

I studied liberal arts and I have a

passion for the humanities, languages,

61

history all of those types of things.

62

And so that's my educational background.

63

And then also from a professional

background, it's a little

64

all over the board as well.

65

So after college, I started

working in a non profit.

66

I did that for a few years.

67

And then I went to grad school and

now I work in product marketing.

68

Then I've mostly worked in product

marketing and the blockchain Bitcoin,

69

what people call web three industry.

70

That's a little bit about my personal

and professional background, some

71

things that I like to add, I'm

a Capricorn and yeah going out,

72

having fun with friends and family.

73

Those are mostly the things that

bring me a lot of energy and joy.

74

Tali: So you grew up in Texas.

75

What was it like?

76

Which part of Texas did you grow up?

77

And we can stay really general,

not necessarily the city name, and

78

then, is it okay if I ask you about

your family's culture background?

79

.

Elena: Yeah.

80

Yeah.

81

Tali: okay.

82

So can you describe a little

bit about the way you grew up?

83

Maybe just a little bit on your

family life and help us understand

84

better where you're coming from?

85

Elena: So my my family

is Cuban and Venezuelan.

86

My dad's from Cuba, but

he grew up in Venezuela.

87

And then my mom's side of the family

is Venezuelan, so me and my brothers

88

were all first generation Americans.

89

We grew up in Houston, Texas,

which is a very kind of culturally

90

and ethnically diverse city.

91

It's a large, spread out city.

92

So growing up , having this English at

school, Spanish at home, bi cultural

93

experience was really special.

94

At the time, I didn't

realize how special it was.

95

As I've gotten older, especially now

that I have a kid yeah, you just realize

96

it's a really enriching thing to to

celebrate or to lean back on, and it

97

helps me connect with other people.

98

I've connected with folks who especially

in the Bitcoin ecosystem, you

99

can connect across borders because

you have a cross border experience.

100

So I speak Spanish at home.

101

It's easier to connect with people

in Latin America or to learn about

102

how people use type of technology,

but this one in particular.

103

So yeah, growing up with a Venezuelan

and Cuban background was pretty cool.

104

And then in Houston, there's just

like such a huge breadth of different

105

ethnicities or immigrant populations, so

Houston has a huge Vietnamese community,

106

Houston has an awesome food scene,

Houston has so much, I got, we can make

107

this a podcast all about Houston, I'm

also very in my feels about it because

108

we recently moved back But it was an

awesome tapestry to, to grow up in.

109

And I think helped shape how I approach

different things or how I look into

110

learning new things going forward.

111

I feel like I have a curiosity

and open mindedness that I

112

try to keep in adulthood.

113

It was one of those things you

have as a kid and you just have to

114

hold onto it as long as you can.

115

Tali: Being an immigrant and a first

generation American as well I have found

116

that the immigrant community has a very

particular way of looking at money and

117

financial success and how to get there.

118

For example you would see, I'm Chinese but

the example I'm going to give is Korean.

119

So the Koreans would come over to the

country and they will be multifamilies

120

forming a community and supporting

each other to start entrepreneur

121

endeavors all around the city.

122

And in the beginning, you don't

really see them, but suddenly

123

it would feel like overnight and

they're just popping up everywhere.

124

Like their business success is so

visible, you know, everybody's driving

125

around in Mercedes Benz and they, they

work so closely as a group, rather

126

than the families coming over to the

States and each forming their own

127

household, they really work together.

128

So is, and I feel like even though they

sacrifice independence, which is so

129

valued in the American society, they

end up having the ability to enjoy more

130

independence down the road, because they

give that up in the beginning, and then

131

you several years in a row, suddenly

they're all financially set to then

132

create their pocket of independence.

133

Does that make sense?

134

Is that something that you

personally experienced or maybe

135

witnessed when you're growing up?

136

Elena: Yeah.

137

That's an interesting,

so when I was growing up.

138

It's not so I will say Venezuela has had

such a painful history as of late with

139

financial crises and maybe humanitarian

crises over the last maybe 10 years.

140

When I was growing up, Venezuela was not

at that level, and so most of my family

141

was still in Venezuela, and we were the

weird ones that were over here in the

142

United States and so while I think the

The anecdote you shared is probably true.

143

It wasn't necessarily something

that I experienced firsthand.

144

Cause it's not like now where there

is a wave of Venezuelan immigrants.

145

And I do feel like there is a strong.

146

In places like Houston or Miami, there's a

strong Venezuelan community that supports

147

one another but growing up it wasn't as

pronounced, at least in my experience.

148

What I do think as you were

talking, this is what made me think.

149

It made me think of more than

the collective versus individual

150

or collectivist and sovereign

or individual experience.

151

It's more, I think, for me, having

perspective of what it's like to

152

live outside of the United States.

153

I think when folks Maybe talk about what's

going on in a particular community or

154

in a particular city or in a particular

country, especially in the United States.

155

If you've only grown up here it's really

hard to have empathy or understanding

156

for what it feels like elsewhere.

157

And so when immigrants or people who,

yeah when immigrants come to United

158

States, that hunger to succeed and

that very laser focused work ethic is

159

probably motivated by the experience that

they are coming from or leaving from.

160

And if you've only ever grown up in

the United States, of course, there

161

are folks here who are super hungry

and super driven and super committed.

162

But sometimes I laugh when folks

talk about the strength of the

163

dollar or, crime on the streets.

164

Those things definitely happen here.

165

But it, If you've come from a place

like Venezuela, if you have family

166

who are living in other places, it

just really puts that in perspective.

167

And then one of the things that's always

stuck with me is how much my parents

168

loved this country and how much they're

like, this is where your dreams come true.

169

This is the place where

opportunities are made real.

170

And so I think that That patriotism

and celebration and joy that an

171

immigrant comes to the United

States, they have they maybe love it.

172

Even more because they

appreciate how special it is.

173

Whereas if you've grown up here,

you might not see that perspective.

174

There's a quote, and I forget who the,

I feel like it's David Foster Wallace,

175

but there's a quote about two fishes

swimming in a fish bowl and somebody

176

swims by and says, Oh, how's the water?

177

And the fish ask themselves what's water?

178

Because if you're swimming in it, you

don't really realize what it is, because

179

you've never known anything else.

180

So yeah, that's what your observation

or your comment made me think of.

181

Tali: Yeah.

182

That is so true.

183

When you were talking, I actually remember

this one story and it might offend

184

some people, but I'm going to share it

anyway, but I, I just remember, I, I

185

can't even remember if it was an article

or just a story that I heard, but it

186

was a Taiwanese academic in the United

States answering somebody's question.

187

And the person was accusing American

companies for utilizing sweatshops

188

in Asia and how horrible it is that

these people have to work such long

189

hours and the conditions are terrible.

190

And, how dare we do that and

don't buy products from those

191

companies, that kind of thing.

192

And This particular Taiwanese

person said, yeah my aunt works at

193

one of those factories in Taiwan.

194

And yes, from your perspective is

terrible, but from her perspective,

195

her only other option is prostitution.

196

And so you can't always judge a situation

from one side of the coin because to

197

her, that's sweat shop, yes, it's tough.

198

Yes, it's not great.

199

But in her experience, it's a thousand

times better than the alternative.

200

And if we just say across the

board, Oh, that's terrible for him.

201

Humanitarian reasons don't ever

buy from this company because

202

they use sweatshops like that.

203

That's a very narrow view

of right and wrong, so

204

Elena: Yeah, it makes me think of the

the truest luxury the only luxury really

205

is is choice, like having the option.

206

And what might sound in the United States,

the perspective you just shared implies

207

that a person as a consumer has a choice.

208

And if you're Comfortable enough off

and you have a choice between buying

209

something that's made ethically that

source locally I'm sorry, that's

210

four times as expensive as something

that you would get at a big box store.

211

And so imposing a value set.

212

That's based on an assumption

that everybody has the same choice

213

is messed up because not, we

don't all have the same choice.

214

And like the more choice or the

more optionality you have, the more

215

privilege you have, the more, that's,

those are all the values that we

216

talk about, like freedom liberty, all

that is just saying you have a choice.

217

And so people who don't have a

choice typically don't have the

218

freedom to move, or the liberty to

choose, or the freedom to associate.

219

So yeah, that, that is, and that, I

also think that goes back to perspective

220

if you have no idea that you, there

are people in your own community who

221

don't have the choice between, buying

a vegan, organic, locally sourced,

222

delicious croissant as opposed to

whatever is the most affordable option.

223

That also makes me think of narratives

around food and what's good for you

224

and what's bad for you and sometimes

the only option that you have is

225

not the option that's the best

for you, but that's what you got.

226

That's the option you have.

227

Tali: yeah, for sure.

228

I wish I could remember the sources of

where I've read these things, but like

229

a story just popped into my head again.

230

And it was, yeah.

231

Somewhere I saw it was pictures of

people right now, modern people

232

living on the Indian reservations.

233

Elena: Huh.

234

Tali: and they have a lot of issues

with alcoholism and drug use, but they

235

also have a ton of issues with obesity.

236

And they

237

Elena: interesting

238

Tali: eat a lot of charity food items

and by necessity, because they're

239

being shipped in, they are in cans,

and they are drinking free sodas and

240

they're eating canned vegetables and

canned meat and things like that.

241

And Like you're saying, it's

wonderful to have the choice to

242

say, I'm not going to buy canned

food because that's not good for me.

243

I'm going to buy fresh

food, but it's not always.

244

possible.

245

And then , on the other hand, I want to

share a different place where I heard

246

someone say she's an energy teacher and

she had, she was conducting a workshop and

247

this man came up to her from the back of

the room and he was in tattered clothing.

248

You can tell he was homeless,

sores everywhere, gaunt

249

and his skin color was gray.

250

And you can just tell that he was probably

eating out of garbage cans, the garbage

251

dump and for that man, he doesn't have a

choice to eat better in order to improve

252

his health, but he showed up at the

workshop because he wanted a better life.

253

And the teacher said to him without

making any changes while you're eating

254

the food, wherever you're getting it

from, whether it's from the garbage dump

255

or somebody's handing it to you, you say

a blessing and you thank you give thanks

256

for the food and you bless the food and

then you eat it and then, okay, so this

257

is a crazy story, but a year later,

of course he shows up again, right?

258

And the teacher sees him, he walks

up to her, same tattered clothes,

259

but she said I couldn't recognize

him because he had changed so much.

260

He looked so healthy.

261

You would have thought that he was,

he had changed his diet completely,

262

that he found a job, a place to stay,

and now he's eating amazing food.

263

And.

264

That was not the case at all.

265

He was still eating from the garbage dump,

but he was giving blessings to his food.

266

And he was, and I'm not saying

we shouldn't help people

267

who are in bad situations.

268

I'm not saying that at all.

269

I'm just saying like what you're saying,

the choice sometimes is more subtle.

270

, in this man's case, his choice was

to give blessing to what he had.

271

And it changed his health status without

anything else in his life changing.

272

And it's, I think it's just important

for us to recognize that, like you

273

were saying not everybody has the

same range of choices and options

274

that we would love for them to have.

275

In today's society, the

way that it is right now,

276

Elena: Yeah, it makes me think of there.

277

There's this book.

278

I read a few years ago called Finite and

Infinite Games and when I first read the

279

book, I was like, oh I don't know if I

agree with any of this because it was

280

but it was such a fun read because I

really didn't agree with it, and you know

281

when you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

it's like eating broccoli if you don't

282

like broccoli I'm gonna expose myself

to something that I'm not that it's not

283

in my wheelhouse or I don't understand

or quite agree with it right away.

284

But the whole theory, or the whole premise

of the book is that everything is a game.

285

Some games are finite, like a game

of chess, or a game of HODL UP

286

and then other games are infinite.

287

So it's playing make believe, or Dungeons

and Dragons, or something like that.

288

And he, or the author of the

book, was basically saying you

289

choose the game that you play.

290

And you might not choose the rules

if you're playing with other people,

291

but you fundamentally the main

thing that people have is choice.

292

You might have a lot of choice

or you might have a little choice

293

depending on what your background is.

294

I think the thing that was

controversial for me is that he

295

was saying , you can choose to

be a mom or you can choose to be.

296

And I was like biologically, no,

you either did that thing or you

297

didn't do that thing or you have

a kid or you don't have a kid.

298

But the concept was just like, even in,

in a situation where you don't feel like

299

you have any control or autonomy, you

can find something to choose on your own.

300

So the anecdote you gave about a

man choosing to bless his food.

301

And how that impacted his lived experience

yeah, and I also think that framework

302

has stuck with me so much because it

also helps me understand , oh, if I

303

disagree with somebody or if I don't.

304

If somebody's doing something that

I really can't understand, sometimes

305

it helps me just think what's the

game that they're trying to play?

306

And how is that different than

the game that I'm trying to play?

307

And maybe, as maybe it's okay that

we just live on the same earth, and

308

we are consuming the same resources,

and we're occupying the same air, and

309

we play different games, and we don't

need to be playing the same game.

310

If you have a chance to check it out,

it's not a very long book, but it was

311

definitely a mind bender in that it

helped me really understand or gave me

312

a tool to help understand when I strongly

disagreed with somebody or strongly

313

felt differently than somebody else.

314

Just going back to thinking, okay,

they're probably playing a different

315

game than I am or they probably have a

different understanding of the rules.

316

Something like that.

317

Tali: I'm going to connect that to

parenting just a little bit because

318

Scott and I just did our episode on

homeschooling and you have a toddler

319

and it just, I love that framework

because in my mind, I, I frame it

320

as be careful of what you're assuming

when you discipline your child, right?

321

Because If you assume your child is

willfully resisting your instruction,

322

you're going to have one set of reaction.

323

But if you assume that your child simply

just did not understand the instruction,

324

you will have a different way of reacting.

325

And so going back to what you're saying

about playing the different, the games,

326

like what, if you have a two year

old and you said, don't touch that.

327

And the child touches that, what

game is the child playing that is

328

different from the game you are playing,

329

Elena: That's totally right.

330

And I also think you're assuming did

they remember that you said that earlier?

331

And they probably didn't.

332

And did they have the same

lived experience that you did?

333

Probably not.

334

You're telling them don't open the

oven because you know the oven is hot.

335

For them, it's oh, this is a door.

336

I'm just going to see, peek what's inside.

337

Yeah, it is.

338

It is a a trip, but I use that all the

time, just thinking about is this a

339

finite game or is an infinite game?

340

And what game are we playing together?

341

We first met at Bitcoin Park, I I

maybe don't want to get ahead of our

342

conversation, but just like I was going

into that community, very much feeling

343

like an outsider, feeling like an

observer, and I almost was like, okay, am

344

I gonna, how am I gonna present myself am

I just a person, or do I tell people that

345

I've worked at other ecosystems, is that

gonna make people feel some kind of ways,

346

and all of, anytime you feel yourself

posturing, or charading or being, , trying

347

to think about, , how to present yourself,

it is, In a sense, like you're playing a

348

game or you're trying to figure out what

the rules of the game are so that you can

349

be successful in whatever interaction.

350

I think about that all the time.

351

Tali: Yeah.

352

Bitcoin park, I think for a woman,

especially coming alone, like you didn't

353

come with a friend or a partner or

something to come in alone you really

354

have to observe to figure out how to,

make your way into a group of people

355

having a conversation, who's sitting by

themselves and it is a strategic thing.

356

Elena: Yeah and I'll say I I didn't

go alone because I was like, I'm going

357

to bring a friend of mine and she's

actually been on the podcast as well.

358

I brought my friend Marina and I

was like, you need to come with me.

359

I feel like we we are stronger

together and it's not out of fear.

360

It's more just this is unknown and having

a sounding board to just be like, okay,

361

what was interesting to you about this?

362

Or can I ask you a dumb question?

363

Did you get what they were talking about?

364

I didn't get it at all.

365

So yeah, I, Having friends who know

you and then understanding together,

366

like, all right, this is the lay of

the land is yeah, it was definitely

367

a fun weekend and I had a great time.

368

But I definitely appreciated having

a buddy there who at least could help

369

orient the, all the different navigate

all the different opportunities or

370

all the different topics that came up.

371

So yeah.

372

Tali: Yeah, I'm really glad

you brought her too, it was so

373

nice to meet the two of you.

374

And I think when we met, was it in March?

375

Or April, I don't remember now.

376

It was a few months ago,

377

Elena: It was in the spring.

378

Yeah.

379

Tali: yeah, and Scott and I were

really new to the space and we were

380

trying to figure out where we fit in.

381

I'm so glad we met you.

382

So let's hop right into

talking about Bitcoin then.

383

How did you come across this

weird thing called Bitcoin?

384

Elena: Yeah.

385

So I guess I had heard about it, maybe

tangentially, but the real beginning

386

for me was I was in grad school.

387

I was in business school at NYU and I

signed up for a digital currency class.

388

This was around 2017, 2018.

389

And that was really it for me.

390

It was such a cool opportunity.

391

We had speakers come in from

all different backgrounds.

392

I sat in the front row.

393

I was like Johnny on the spot, did all

the readings, did all the homework.

394

I've never been that diligent of

a student in my life, but I just

395

found the topic really interesting

and I feel really fortunate that my

396

exposure to the technology was in

a very guided classroom setting.

397

I feel like a lot of folks are self

taught and so they discover this or hear

398

about it at a cocktail party and then

they go into the big great unknown or

399

the internet and then just try to piece

together what sources should I trust.

400

I had a syllabus and I had readings

One of the people who came to speak at

401

our class, his name is Scott Stornetta

and he's cited in the original Bitcoin

402

whitepaper, his timelock hash algorithm

is part of what inspired the whitepaper.

403

So just having that I feel like I got

a good mix of cypherpunk history, just

404

enough about how the technology works

under the hood, and then finance, those

405

are, I think, the holy trinity of

things that are important to understand

406

in order to understand or put into

context, how this technology works.

407

And then for that class We had to do

a final research paper, and I chose

408

to do a report on crypto adoption in

Venezuela, which is where my family

409

is originally from, and in the process

of doing that research paper, it

410

really helped me see what was The

multiple sides, multiple perspectives

411

as it relates to this technology.

412

So got to interview Bitcoin miners

413

just hearing their stories about how

this really was life changing or a

414

meaningful kind of lifeboat or escape

hatch for hyperinflation and I think

415

those narratives are very common now,

but hearing it directly from somebody

416

who actually lived it, it was really

transformative and powerful for me.

417

And then on the other side, you

definitely hear about predatory

418

projects that are marketing

financial tools to communities that

419

have limited financial literacy.

420

And that's not just projects not

associated with Bitcoin that is included.

421

That's the whole industry.

422

Bitcoin included.

423

And so I think being able to see okay,

this is a tool and people are going

424

to use that tool, however, for good or

for not good reasons, I think was the

425

best launching point for me to decide

I'm passionate about this technology.

426

I want to dedicate the

rest of my career to this.

427

And I'm not a blind acolyte, I want

to be, ingesting this information in a

428

thoughtful and balanced way, and I want

to be able to speak truth to power and

429

not be afraid to ask difficult questions.

430

So That was my very beginning.

431

And then when I graduated, I've

worked in a few different protocols

432

in the last five or so years,

gosh, it feels like a long time.

433

So yeah, I've worked in

the Ethereum ecosystem.

434

I worked in Zcash for a little bit, and

now I'm at a developer tooling company

435

that does developer tools for Bitcoin

layers, stacks specifically, but other

436

Bitcoin projects as well, like Ordinals.

437

Tali: So I'm curious why you were

so passionate about learning about

438

cryptocurrency in the first place

that you would sit in the front of

439

the room and do all the homework

440

Elena: Yeah, I'll start by saying

my life before business school, I

441

worked in a non profit public media.

442

So I worked at an NPR PBS affiliate

station and like Sesame Street.

443

That's my jam.

444

That is very near and dear to my heart.

445

And I think I've always just been

like drawn to the idea of public

446

goods And this it may be a little

bit more on the granola side of

447

things like just shared resources.

448

Why can't we all just get along?

449

And then I went to business school

thinking , okay, I'm gonna work

450

at a big bad cable company.

451

I'm gonna make some money.

452

I'm tired of the nonprofit life

and for better, for worse, just

453

the kind of traditional industries

were not that inspiring to me.

454

So it just seemed oh, okay, the

media business models are based on

455

advertising or subscription models.

456

And those don't seem like they're

adding a whole lot of good in the world.

457

And then if you look on the financial

side of things, like maybe working

458

at a CPG or consumer packaged good I

think there are ways in which that can

459

be a very meaningful career for folks,

but it just didn't resonate for me.

460

And then I learned about crypto or

blockchain or Bitcoin or whatever the

461

word is that, that resonates the most

with an individual that I learned about.

462

And I was like, here's something

that's totally different.

463

It's just way out of left field.

464

It's never been done before.

465

And then I think for me, the

thing that really got me is that.

466

at its core, this technology

is just really good at getting

467

people to agree with one another.

468

It's a consensus building mechanism.

469

So with Bitcoin, you're creating

a financial incentive for everyone

470

to have the same proof or ledger,

like the same shared history.

471

So like we all agree that

you have 5 in your wallet.

472

I have 2 in my wallet, or we all agree

that this transaction happened here.

473

And the way that we reward every new

transaction added to the chain is with 6.

474

25 Bitcoin for every block, . That

idea was really compelling for me.

475

And one thing that I think about a

lot is So if you look at the whole arc

476

of human history, and this is where

I get a little too liberal artsy, but

477

if you'll humor me if you look at the

whole arc of human history, and you look

478

at the greatest wonders of the world,

you have things like the Great Wall of

479

China, the Pyramids of Giza, and so on.

480

Most of those human accomplishments

were made under coercion.

481

People were forced to build those things.

482

The cool thing about the internet

and as an extension, the money of

483

the internet, which is Bitcoin.

484

And then there's also

other types of projects.

485

But the cool thing about the internet

in general is that it's pretty

486

much a voluntary participation.

487

People decide to interact with a network.

488

People decide to maintain

the security of the network.

489

And just the fact that it's a consensus

mechanism that's completely voluntary.

490

and yet very resilient and

very secure and very powerful.

491

, I feel like that's where it got me hooked.

492

Tali: Yeah, that is so cool.

493

It's amazing that you had that

opportunity and you took it by the horns.

494

And now I just want to ask you

to share a little bit more about

495

that thesis paper you wrote.

496

You went into a little bit

about the Bitcoin miners.

497

What else you discover in the

process of doing that paper?

498

Elena: Yeah, so for folks who might

not be as familiar with the Venezuelan

499

kind of narrative, Venezuela for

most of the 20th century was the

500

most wealthy country in Latin America

and is an oil country by and large.

501

So in the 50s and 60s, a lot of

Venezuelan wealth came from oil

502

and that continued until today.

503

And so when my parents were growing

up, Venezuela was like this.

504

It was almost like a mythical land of

just so much prosperity so much goodness.

505

So many amazing things.

506

And then When I was growing up, we would

go there every summer and even during

507

Christmas vacations or holiday vacations

and just being able to see yeah, how cool

508

of a country it was or how cool it was

to grow up in Venezuela, had very high

509

literacy rates, the population regardless

of socioeconomic background, was largely

510

educated or largely had access to public

resources or good public infrastructure.

511

And then that changed in 1999 2000.

512

Hugo Chavez came was elected

president and that began a

513

history of decline in the country.

514

Okay, so there's a little bit

of background for folks who have

515

never heard about Venezuela.

516

That's Basically 1960s to 2000.

517

And then, so what made Venezuela this

perfect storm for crypto adoption in

518

basically 2012, 20, 2012 to 2016, 17

is that because it's an oil country

519

electricity and power was virtually free.

520

And so it became a very desirable place

or very affordable place to mine Bitcoin

521

and that's coupled with the fact that

after a few, almost a decade under

522

Chavez and then his predecessor, his

successor Maduro The money was mismanaged.

523

It went into a financial crisis a

524

of the worst financial crises of the

country in recent memory, and it was

525

coupled with a humanitarian crisis.

526

There wasn't enough food in the country.

527

It was really, really bad.

528

So it motivated a lot of people

um, to start adopting alternative

529

forms like cryptocurrencies

is basically the way to go.

530

So in researching this paper, I spoke

with a few Bitcoin miners, and then I

531

spoke with a few cryptocurrencies, Dash

was one of the projects at the time

532

that was one of the narratives was , if

crypto is going to take off or if Bitcoin

533

is going to take off, it's going to

take off in a country like Venezuela.

534

And it's a slightly different narrative

that you see today in oh we want

535

to create a circular economy where

people could just use Bitcoin, like

536

El Salvador, that is, is a totally

different approach, but it's I don't

537

know how to explain it maybe a similar

desire of we want to see this technology

538

get adopted as a means of exchange

or as the preferred form of money.

539

In Venezuela, it was against a backdrop

of There's a huge financial crisis and

540

humanitarian crisis that's motivating

people to find an alternative and today

541

It's more like there are folks who just

want to experiment or create something

542

new or something different So that's my

kind of naive observation But in doing the

543

research paper speaking with people who

were mining firsthand and then speaking

544

with just people who were interacting

with or discovering the different

545

technologies or the different currencies.

546

One of the things that really struck

me is something we talked about

547

early in our conversation, the

importance of having perspective.

548

So I come from the United States

in my mind if you work with the

549

government is bad, like Chavez

and Maduro evil people, horrible.

550

They're the reason we are in a

humanitarian and financial crisis, so

551

you're not supposed to talk to 'em ever.

552

And then some of the people I spoke with

were like, it's not that clear cut like

553

the government is definitely not great.

554

It's definitely bad.

555

And yet.

556

If you want to have access to a

cryptocurrency conference, that's going to

557

be put on by the government, or government

people will be there, so you can't, you

558

don't have the luxury of deciding to write

people off the country is not that big,

559

the community is not that big, so you will

be rubbing elbows with folks who you might

560

find otherwise very unsavory, and It was

just interesting, because I feel like if

561

you're from the outside looking in, it's

very easy to make things black and white.

562

And then when you talk to people who are

on the ground, everything seems gray.

563

well, How do you like Dash versus Bitcoin?

564

Or how do you decide if you work with

the government or against the government?

565

That to me was just a huge can of worms

that I wasn't anticipating I thought

566

it was just going to be a fun little

interview where people were telling about

567

how fun Bitcoin is and really it became a

way to talk about even other experiences

568

like I'm an American a Venezuelan

American but culturally and identity by

569

most of my experience is American and so

Being able to connect with Venezuelans in

570

a way that I hadn't before was yeah, it

was really a huge, for me, a huge outcome

571

of doing that research and at the time

it was almost a meme in cryptocurrency

572

or blockchain Bitcoin industry, like, if

573

2018, every single panel would mention

hyperinflation, like in Venezuela, it

574

was just a standard use case that people

referred to and I found it to be pretty

575

powerful to really understand that most

folks Who were referring to that had

576

never spoken to someone from Venezuela.

577

And I think that is something that

I've been refer back to throughout, in

578

all of my professional experiences.

579

If we're going to talk about

remittances, somebody in the room

580

needs to have sent a remittance before.

581

Otherwise, if you've never experienced

the problem yourself, how are

582

you going to build an effective

product to solve that problem?

583

So that was another big learning

or big takeaway for me as a

584

result of that research paper.

585

Tali: I think you're so right in that

like we were talking about before

586

there's always two sides of the coins

and it's so easy for us to stand

587

on one side and go that's the right

way to look at it, but for people

588

looking at it from the other side,

they see a completely different image.

589

Interesting.

590

So what would you say so

591

What is it like now, if you were to

reference Venezuela and the use of

592

Bitcoin, how would you frame that now?

593

Elena: I think the way I feel most

comfortable framing it is I don't know,

594

I haven't at the point of time doing

that research I was speaking with 20

595

people and reading papers then double

checking across referencing sources.

596

I firmly believe that if you don't do

that level of attention to research.

597

You don't really know.

598

Anything you say is it has to

be taken with a grain of salt.

599

My anecdotal experience is that the

situation in Venezuela is not as

600

dire as it was in 2016, 2017, from a

financial and humanitarian perspective.

601

It's still really bad, but it's

602

And so the strong need for

an alternative like Bitcoin.

603

What that need was stronger in 2016 than

it is maybe today, although there are

604

still an active community of people who

are thinking about and exploring digital

605

currencies Bitcoin adoption in Venezuela.

606

One big challenge though, is that

the Maduro government, if I recall

607

correctly, started cracking down on

Bitcoin mining and you had to register

608

your miner, you have to register as

a miner with the government, and then

609

the government, there are anecdotes of

the government going to your house and

610

seizing your property and stuff like that.

611

The last I heard of that was around 2020.

612

And so I'm not sure, what

the situation is like today.

613

I follow a bunch of Venezuelans on

Twitter who are active Bitcoiners,

614

active in the cryptocurrency.

615

Mostly Bitcoiners, to be honest.

616

And I think somebody I was Following

his name is Javier Bastardo.

617

He posted just the other day, there's

a Venezuelan prison that burned down and

618

there were Bitcoin ASIC miners, in the

prison, and so not that I I share that

619

data point because it's what, but I don't

have any conclusions to draw from that.

620

Does that mean that people who were

wrongfully incarcerated had had a way of.

621

Generating income while they were

incarcerated or does that mean real

622

quote unquote bad guys were using Bitcoin?

623

Who knows it just shows you that there

is a level of penetration adoption in

624

the country that it's hard to ignore.

625

It's hard to down credit or downplay

but in terms of drawing a conclusion

626

from that It's really hard to do.

627

And that's where I think people who

work, people who are ideologically very

628

passionate about Bitcoin sometimes You

have to fight that urge of projecting

629

their narrative onto these are just

facts people are using this technology,

630

and then whether you want to paint it

in a certain way or draw conclusions

631

there's, it's important to be really

careful because just like this this

632

technology be used to enforce a very

positive and optimistic message.

633

Thank you.

634

Narrative that Bitcoin is an alternative.

635

Bitcoin is a way of escaping

oppressive networks.

636

I firmly believe that.

637

That's why people in Russia, that's

why people in People living under

638

oppressive regimes have a strong

interest in this technology.

639

But the opposite is, can be true as well.

640

And so just understanding how a technology

can be co opted by a narrative or

641

be co opted by a special interest.

642

Yeah, I'm rambling a little bit right now,

but I feel there's a lot of There's so

643

many different perspectives that I think

are important to mention, especially as

644

people are first starting to get into

this technology or into this industry.

645

A lot of times you ask yourself

what am I supposed to think?

646

What is the truth?

647

And it's just really

hard to pick one truth.

648

So yeah.

649

Tali: Yeah, I really appreciate your

perspective because you're right it

650

something can always be used for good

And for evil by different people and

651

different intentions, if you don't

mind, I'd love to ask you about your

652

parents, because you mentioned that

they were the odd ones that left

653

Venezuela to come to the United States.

654

And then while they were here, that's

when you had Chavez go into power.

655

And then the decline that started, how

do they feel about what's happening

656

in reference to this new technology?

657

Bitcoin slash cryptocurrency

slash blockchain.

658

Elena: Yeah, so I remember when I

was in grad school and I was first

659

taking these classes I couldn't

shut up about Bitcoin And I couldn't

660

shut up about this blockchain stuff.

661

And maybe people , maybe

you Tali can resonate.

662

When coin price is up, everybody's asking

you , Hey, I heard you were into this.

663

Can you tell me what's it about?

664

Is it really real?

665

When the coin price is down,

nobody wants to ask you about it.

666

The way my parents reacted when I first

started to ask my family because at

667

first I asked my family hey Do you

know anybody who's mining crypto or do

668

you know anybody who's mining Bitcoin?

669

I'm doing a research paper and I want

to learn more They were very skeptical.

670

They're like this sounds Weird and

different and I'm unfamiliar I think

671

that The main thing is just I have been

pretty I've had a conviction that this

672

is the industry that I want to work in,

and I've been pretty steadfast in that I

673

have worked in it for a few years, I've

worked at a few different companies,

674

and so I think now my parents really see

this as this is a new technology, and we

675

don't know that much about it but there

it is In terms of how this technology,

676

or Bitcoin in particular, relates to

Venezuela today I don't want to speak

677

for my parents, but my impression is

that Venezuela just has bigger problems.

678

And the problems are this just truly

heartbreaking collapse of a country, of

679

an economy And a huge diaspora of people

who have had to leave their country.

680

I think when at least I talk to

my parents and my family about

681

Venezuela, that's what we talk about.

682

And the, this interesting technology

that happens to be part of my

683

day to day work is the footnote.

684

But the bigger story is what happened

to this country and how can we what

685

is, what does this look for my kid's

generation or for the next generation?

686

It has helped me understand, like

learning more about Bitcoin and

687

learning has helped me just learn more

about how money works and that money

688

is in and of itself a technology.

689

So that's informed a lot of

the ways I think about and

690

talk about money in general.

691

But I, yeah, I feel like the bigger

narrative around Venezuela in particular

692

is just there's clearly a bigger issue

here and that issue is harder to define,

693

harder to solve, harder to talk about.

694

If it was as simple as man, fix the money.

695

So I feel like that's a Bitcoiner

adage, fix the money, save the world.

696

If it was that simple I think that

would be an awesome circumstance, but I

697

just suspect that it's more complicated

than that, and being honest about

698

that is, is at least in the case of

Venezuela, is probably, yeah, that's

699

been the most consistent way that I've

heard it talked about in my family.

700

Tali: Yeah.

701

Thank you so much for that perspective.

702

What would you say to women

who are sitting on the fence

703

right now about Bitcoin?

704

Elena: Oh man, okay, I have a bunch of

little nuggets so I will list them off.

705

And then I want to go

into them one by one.

706

But I would say that there are probably

four key things that have helped

707

me and four key things that I would

really encourage women on the fence

708

about Bitcoin to keep top of mind.

709

The first is follow your interests.

710

If you're interested in politics, or

if you're interested in art and design,

711

or if you're interested in in food

sovereignty, or if you're interested in

712

political ideology, chances are there

is a Bitcoin connection to whatever

713

you're passionate about, game design,

chances are If you are passionate about

714

something, somebody has put Bitcoin on it.

715

And so the more you can follow your

interests, I think the easier it is

716

to navigate an unfamiliar technology.

717

And the easier it is to just

put it into the context that's

718

already familiar with you.

719

So that would be goal number one.

720

The second one is find a friend, buddy up.

721

My cryptocurrency or Bitcoin friends

are the . I cherish those friendships,

722

and those are folks that I still call for

advice, I still call for perspective hey,

723

what do you think about this new thing?

724

What do you think about crazy ordinals?

725

Are we into that or are we not into that?

726

And it's just a helpful sounding board to,

I think the Twitter in particular can be

727

really noisy, and people can feel, have

very strong opinions and feelings, and

728

people who you respect and admire can say

things that you don't totally agree with.

729

And so having somebody that you trust,

that you can ask the stupid questions

730

with, or have hot takes oh, you know

what, I really didn't agree with what

731

he said that is invaluable because

it helps you also find your north.

732

You know what, I don't really want to be,

I don't really think about it this way.

733

I prefer to think about it that way.

734

So find your friend is the second one.

735

Third one, probably in my mind, the

most important if you're sitting on

736

the fence about Bitcoin, it can be

intimidating and you can handle it.

737

I, I find that is to me the

biggest thing to overcome.

738

I don't have a technical background.

739

I don't have a financial background and

yet I've worked in this industry for

740

multiple years and I feel very confident

in the perspective I have now built up.

741

But that's cause I was able to overcome

this fear of the unknown or this

742

insecurity that I'm not smart enough

or I'm not good enough or whatever.

743

If you are intimidated by dipping

your toes into this pool just

744

know that you can handle it.

745

And it the industry or this community

will be so much better off with you in it.

746

And once you overcome that

fear, there's so many other

747

doors that will be open to you.

748

I feel like that's when I hear stories

of other women talking about why

749

they're so passionate about Bitcoin.

750

A lot of times it's I got into Bitcoin

and I was just interested in it and

751

I didn't know anything about it.

752

I overcame that fear.

753

And now I do, and now I make smarter

financial decisions for my family, or

754

now I'm able to get out of relationships

that weren't serving me or whatever, I'm

755

able to renegotiate different boundaries.

756

I think a lot of times that's

a similar narrative arc.

757

So it's intimidating for sure.

758

I'm not going to say Oh

yeah, it's a cakewalk.

759

Bitcoin is super easy to understand.

760

But you can absolutely handle it.

761

And once you do, you'll be stronger

for it and the industry will be

762

stronger with your perspective.

763

And then the last thing, and I'll

say this for anyone who's listening

764

who really loves being on the fence,

who really likes being in the middle.

765

You can explore this technology.

766

And it doesn't have to be your identity,

it doesn't have to be your religion, it

767

doesn't have to be your only interest.

768

Some folks, it is that for them,

and that's very inspiring, that's

769

very interesting it doesn't

have to be that way for you.

770

And for me, I'm very passionate

and curious about multiple

771

aspects of Bitcoin and multiple

aspects of this broader industry.

772

A lot of times I feel like folks opt

out or women opt out of the Bitcoin

773

particular conversation because

they feel , Oh, I'm not that intense

774

or I'm not that committed to it.

775

I'm not that bought in.

776

And you don't have to be that

singularly focused in order to add

777

value to the conversation in order

to participate in the conversation.

778

So that would be my last tip.

779

Tali: Awesome tips.

780

I love those tips.

781

Thank you so much.

782

They're so thoughtful.

783

You've just been absolutely amazing.

784

Thank you so much for sharing

your story and your perspectives.

785

I'm so glad you came on Orange Hatter.

786

Elena: Thank you for having me Tali and I

cannot wait to listen to future episodes.

787

So I'll stay tuned.

788

Tali: Thank you for

listening to this episode.

789

Did you enjoy it?

790

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

791

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

792

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

793

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

794

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know more,

795

go to www.orangehatter.com.

796

Get involved.

797

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

798

I will be so happy to hear from you.

799

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

800

every woman, you know, to listen in.

801

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

802

I appreciate you so much.

803

See you next time.

804

Bye.