In this episode of All Things Marketing and Education, host Elana Leoni sits down with seasoned educator and EdTech leader Mary Beth Hertz, whose inspiring journey in education spans nearly two decades. Together, they explore Mary Beth's unique relationship with technology—from the early days of building computers to her current work as an advocate for experiential learning.

Mary Beth shares her insights into the evolution of technology in education and her passion for experiential learning, a hands-on approach that transforms traditional teaching methods. She explains how it differs from project-based learning and the profound impact it has on students in her classroom. For EdTech professionals, this episode offers practical advice on supporting experiential learning through innovative products and services, ensuring alignment with effective pedagogical strategies.

Tune in for an engaging discussion about Mary Beth's fascinating EdTech journey, the power of experiential learning, and how understanding diverse teaching methodologies can help us all better support educators and students alike. This conversation is packed with valuable insights for educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and anyone passionate about authentic, impactful education.

Link to the episode show notes.

Elana Leoni:

Welcome everyone to our podcast, All Things Marketing and Education. I'm Elana Leoni and I've devoted my entire career to helping education brands build their brand awareness, engagement, and ultimately grow their lead. Every week, my guests who range from educators, to EdTech entrepreneurs, to experts in the field, will all share tips, strategies, and insight in either social media, content marketing, and community building. I'm so excited to be your guide to help transform your marketing efforts into something that's truly authentic and consistently provides value for your audience. Enjoy.

Hi everyone and welcome back. In this episode, I am joined by Mary Beth Hertz. She's a seasoned educator and EdTech leader who I've had the pleasure of knowing and learning from for almost two decades. In this episode, we dive into Mary Beth's unique journey in EdTech. We talk about the evolution of her experience with technology over all of these years within education, and it is fascinating. We talk a little bit about even before computers and she was building computers and all of the things. So I love hearing about her journey and her relationship with technology over the decades. We also talk about her passion for experiential learning. And if you don't know what that is yet, it's okay, this episode is for you. She dives into what it is, how it differs from project-based learning and all of the benefits that she sees every day when she starts implementing it in her classroom.

For you EdTech folk out there, we talk about some ways you can better support this type of learning in your product or service. And it's very important for you to understand all of the different pedagogies, all of the different strategies within learning itself so we can make sure that as we are in EdTech and helping facilitate learning, are our products supporting that, are we supporting it in the best way possible? And knowing about experiential learning is just so fascinating. Plus, I love Mary Beth's journey in EdTech. It talks about how there's no linear progression in life, and some of you all will be head nodding about all the cool nooks and crannies of her EdTech journey. So without further ado, let's jump into this conversation with my dear friend, Mary Beth Hertz.

Welcome so much to the show. Mary Beth, this is exciting. I feel like we were catching up before the show, and we haven't really caught up. It's been a long time and you're doing some really, really cool things, so I'm glad to have you on the show. Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education.

Mary Beth Hertz:

Thanks for having me. It is really good to see you. Like you said, it's been a long time. It's always nice to chat offline, online.

Elana Leoni:

We grow up in the tours-

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yes.

Elana Leoni:

So got to be overseeing the technology that teachers were using, helping them implement it, helping them teach kids who are on Zoom here and in front of them here, whether they're wearing a mask and maybe face shield and on microphone and all that stuff. So yeah, so it's kind of been an interesting journey because like I said, I was a French major. I did a semester abroad in Senegal. I'm going to be an ambassador or be a translator. There was nothing in my future that said EdTech. The one thing I do joke about is if people had said that girls could do computers back in the '90s, maybe I would've been in a tech career, but back then there wasn't a big push for women to go into that field, and so not that there is really still, but yeah.

And then this past year I moved into an experiential learning coordinator role at my school and reflected a lot on my high school education experience where I attended an experiential learning alternative senior year called Walkabout. I realized I had a huge impact on my approach to education and how I view education and the kinds of things that I know kids can do. So that's my attempted short version.

Elana Leoni:

It helps, right. Well, first of all, I was also into French and was a French minor in college and I wanted to be an ambassador as well.

Mary Beth Hertz:

Elana Leoni:

The funniest things come out in podcasts. But I like to tell a story because it doesn't just start with the internet and all of these things. You're talking pre-computers where you're dealing with a computer that was built from your dad and then trying to figure out, okay, how does this plug in? And then once it plugs into a classroom, let's talk about technology management on a whole other scale. You can't move you, you've got dial-ups, all of those things. It reminded me of, at ISTE we were talking with Kathy Schrock about how she was building computers way back in her basement way in the day, and it's like we have to remind ourselves where we came from and then how social media really helped connect educators that were passionate about things like you about, okay, now I got some computers. What do we do? There's no curriculum. How do we integrate it into our studies?

So that linear path, well, not really linear, non-linear but kind of wayfinding into you like technology, you're really good at this, maybe it's something you could do. And then going up to the district level was fascinating and well maybe we'll talk a little bit about that during COVID because I'm sure you have stories to tell. And then we're jumping into experiential learning of really getting back home and grounding you of what truly made a difference when you reflected back on your career.

Mary Beth Hertz:

I like the way you weave that together.

Elana Leoni:

So I hope that those of you that are listening, especially educators out there that feel like you're changing things, you're always thinking of new things, know that you're not alone. Inspiring individuals like Mary Beth do that all the time too, is really look at what your heart tells you and what moves you in terms of making an impact. I mean, Mary Beth, you were leading robotics for years and years as well. You've got so much into all sorts of tech. But let's talk a little bit about experiential learning because you kind of teed that up and I really want to learn more about it. Not many people talk about it. No one really defines it well, I think it's broadly defined. So let's start at the beginning. How would you describe experiential learning and how is it different from other things that people get it confused with, like project-based learning?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. I mean, for me, experiential learning is an approach. So when you said you're saying how it has this broad, larger reference, I think that's right. I think experiential learning can mean a lot of different things. I don't think experiential learning and project-based learning are mutually exclusive, but not all project-based learning is experiential learning. When I think of experiential learning, I think about taking down the traditional classroom walls and making the world and the community your classroom. And so when we think about experiential learning, we're thinking about how we are connecting our students to their local community, to the global community, to things that are real in their life that they're experiencing, like that word experiential, and that they're doing things and that they're doing things in that context.

So project-based learning can be experiential learning if you're doing those things. So if your project is a service learning project and your students are identifying something in the community that's interesting to them and they are connecting with experts and they're connecting with other schools or students or things like that, then, yeah, then project-based learning. On the flip side, if you're doing project-based learning and you're doing true PBL in the sense that you are doing things that are student-driven, they're asking questions that are having students create their own questions and doing that kind of inquiry, it's not experiential. To me, when I think about the definition, if it's not leaving the classroom, if it's contained in the classroom, then to me that's not experiential learning.

Elana Leoni:

Okay. So experiential learning is the umbrella term really. And it's kind of like a square can be a rectangle or a rectangle can be a square, but the umbrella is experiential learning. And it could have those characteristics you were talking about, it's not mutually exclusive to project-based learning but not all project-based learning is experiential learning. Did I get that right?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah, yeah. And I think the other thing that I think about is when I say approach is taking kids on a trip takes them outside of the classroom, but that's not necessarily experiential learning as an approach if it's like, we're going to go to the museum. We went to the museum, that was experiential learning. But to me it's more about how are you connecting what they did there with what they're doing in the classroom, or what is the connection between that experience and what you are teaching or what's important to students or their own experiences.

Elana Leoni:

Okay, great. Have you had people link experiential learning to Career Tech Ed, or CTE, or those types of programs as well? Do people associate it with that?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. I mean, I always say CTE is a form of experiential learning. I think it's the lowest hanging fruit of experiential learning. I say that because it's hyper focused, so you already have a focus, so you're like, we're doing automotive, we're doing health sciences, we're doing culinary. And so it's very easy to streamline and define. It also has usually a federally approved or state approved curriculum, and there are the standardized tests and not the FDN. And there's certifications that are professional certifications that are clearly identified, tied to the program. And so if you're trying to do experiential learning and you want to say you're doing experiential learning or you want to offer experiential learning, CTE is a nice prepackaged program that you can bring to your school. I'm not saying it's easy necessarily because there are, like I said, there's all the certifications, there's the tests.

The teacher needs to have the right skill set and you also need enough students who are interested because that's the other hard part with CTE that I struggle with when people go that route and say, "We're doing experiential learning", if you only do CTE... I mean CTE programs, in my experience, you have to do at least three years of the program. So ninth grade, you pick what you're going to do, and for 10th, 11th, 12th grade, you're in that program. So I have to figure out at the end of ninth grade what I'm going to do for the next three years, and I'm stuck in that program because I'm required to a certain number of hours to get that certification. So I can't drop out of this program and start another program because there won't be enough time for me to make up those hours. So I just find that works for some kids. But for students who aren't ready to lock themselves into culinary arts for the next three years, it narrows their opportunities if that's the only kind of experiential learning that you offer. But CTE is definitely a form of experiential learning for sure.

Elana Leoni:

So you mentioned one thing that it's not. You can't just say all field trips are experiential learning it really depends on are you actually connecting it to their studies, right? What else is it not? Let's talk about a couple of myths.

Mary Beth Hertz:

I don't know the myths that I would think about would be myths that... Not your traditional myth. I guess for me, I'm thinking people think experiential learning is an extracurricular, it's something you do outside the classroom. It's something you do outside the curriculum. "Oh, we're going to do our learning and then we're going to do our experiential learning." Or it's layered on top of the curriculum, like we offer these classes and this other experience. So even with CTE, if you're in a CTE program, you still have to take your academic classes, but the CTE classes are separate from your academics, like your traditional English, your math, all that kind of stuff. So a word that I love that I think Will Richardson brought up in a post, and I still have to read the article that he posted, is the word consilience.

So consilience is where you have two disparate topics, specifically often in academia, where there are connections built between them. And so English and math, people often think, "How could you possibly have any kind of convergence between those two content areas?" But consilience is where you're able to take different aspects of the curriculum, academic subjects, and are able to converge them and have them join together in your approach and your thinking. So I think about that only because for me, experiential learning, that approach, is where you've achieved that consilience, right? You've achieved that integration, that convergence of your academics, the experiences you're having. And even if you think about if a kid is doing a service learning project and they're learning about how, I don't know, the city tracks the homeless folks on the street using data, but then they also have to come up with literature and have to come up with different things of how they communicate.

So the real world is full of consilience, is not siloed. And so for me, that learning approach helps students build those connections in a way that has context and gives them a real glimpse as to how things function. Because the classroom is often very siloed, academics is often very siloed. So for me, that is one of the myths is that it's something outside of the curriculum, an add-on to the curriculum, a one-time experience, to hippy-dippy is another thing I think. Because I think project-based learning gets a little bit of that too, where people think, well, they can't be learning anything if they're not doing this, that, and the other thing. So I'm excited, and I'm going to add this even though it wasn't in the question, but I'm excited. I feel like because of the disengagement that people are seeing with students in school, that I'm hoping that there's an appetite to actually think about helping young people find purpose, find meaning, create connections, and context to get them re-engaged in their learning. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist, but that's my hope.

Elana Leoni:

And I think before we move on, I want to talk a little bit about ways that they can launch it in their classroom. But just a quick shout out to Will Richardson, we'll put the link of that article you mentioned in the show notes of this episode as well. But side note, Will Richardson was one of our first board members at Edutopia, the George Lucas Educational Foundation, and he still pushes the envelope in terms of really thinking...

He's a bit a canary in a coal mine too at times with technology, which I see in you too, Mary Beth. I listened to you in all of your articles because you don't just adopt AI. You say, okay, well why? And what are the concerns and all of the things around it. But I've learned that from him. And he pushed Edutopia to get online before a lot of organizations were and on social media. So side note there.

Mary Beth Hertz:

He is awesome.

Elana Leoni:

He's awesome. I would say one of the things we hear with project-based learning is, "Oh, it's just too hard. That takes way too much time." And I think that loops into this question of if I'm a classroom teacher, what are some small ways that I can incorporate experiential learning that doesn't have to be too hard? In their opinion, right?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. And the hard part, since I've been saying how it's an approach, it's an approach. And as a classroom teacher who would go to conferences and people would say, "Oh, do this in your classroom." I'd be like, "I can never do that in my classroom. That must be nice for you." And so I know that everybody's working in their own context and their own reality. So I think, for me, one of the things that is the easiest, the one with the lowest hanging fruit I guess, would be looking for programs that already exist in your community. So for instance, we have here in Philadelphia a chapter of Junior Achievement. I think that they're a national organization. So they have mentorship programs, they have entrepreneurship programs, they have all kinds of ways that they bring young people into the workforce, into work-based learning opportunities, come into your classroom and do things. They have curriculum that you can use.

So just thinking about what are some existing things that you can tap into that might be an easy... And you know your curriculum, maybe you know there's one unit where you want to say, this will work with this unit, and this is something that I can pretty easily implement because the resource is already there, I just have to make the phone call, the email, whatever it is to line up with when I'm going to be teaching that unit. I like to think about picking a unit where you can make the walls of your classroom permeable. So whether it's someone coming in, kids going out, whatever it is, what is that one thing that you teach that you know leans in that direction because trying to do something like that throughout the school year without any support is exhausting. What I love is if you pick the unit that you know will be successful or will hope will be successful, nobody knows anything when it comes to teaching as far as how it's going to end up until you're in the middle of it.

But I think that sometimes if you have the evidence of what's successful, then that's data to say, "Hey, my kids really love this." "Hey, this was really powerful." And then if it's successful, what I've found in my experience is that you build a relationship that's last more than one year. So, "Great, can't wait for you to do this unit next year, we'll be there", when you're talking to outside partners and things like that. And so next year it's easier because that partnership is there. You don't have to build it, it's already there and you can tap into it. And then the other two things I would think of is just talking to your students. What are they interested in? What are things they're already doing too? I think we assume that kids only do school. It's amazing the kinds of things that kids, they volunteer, they do these kinds of external programs, entrepreneurship boot camps, they do all kinds of stuff outside of the classroom that we might not know about.

And then they can bring those connections, those partnerships into your classroom because they're already connected. And the last thing I would say is also that doing this alone is hard. So maybe if you're at a grade team and you all have to teach the same unit, and if we're in that situation where everybody's got to teach the same unit in February, we all do this unit as a team, how are we as a team going to do this rather than how am I as a teacher going to do this? Or maybe there's three teachers and two of us co-plan, the third one likes to do their own thing, but me and my other colleague will get together and we'll try to do something. So those are my immediate thoughts.

Elana Leoni:

Yeah. It doesn't have to be hard. I love the idea of serving what your community has already, you can piggyback off of and they're doing the heavy lifting. I also love kind of activating prior knowledge from your kids, but really what are they interested in? What are they doing? And how can we tap into that community potentially? So really good thoughts there. You have been in the throes of experiential learning this past year in helping all sorts of people.

You're the executive director of the Walkabout Foundation. And I'd love for you to just tell us what were the benefits you saw when you were at the helm in various capacities? Because I can imagine it's powerful when I see even just project-based learning in kids and what they're doing, they light up, there's student engagement, there's all the things. And for you reflecting in your career, you said, "It was one of the things that helped change my trajectory. I remember it still." So do you want to talk a little bit about the benefits because you saw it in various capacities and had a really good hand in implementing it in different ways?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest benefit I see ties into something that is really important during teenage years, and that's that sense of not just identity of self, but identity of self to community, and identity of self to the world, and that sense of purpose that young people are seeking when they're at that really important developmental stage right before that launching into what society tells them is adulthood. So this program that I attended at my senior year of high school was called Walkabout because it was based on the aboriginal Walkabout, the rite of passage, and the idea that senior year should be a launch pad, right? Some kind of rite of passage into the adult world. And so one thing that's been amazing to see is I had ninth graders, I know they're not seniors, but I had ninth graders who volunteered in local elementary schools.

So they had to figure out how to get there on SEPTA, right? Not SEPTA, sorry, that's the public transit system in the city. They had to show up on time, they had to say, "Hi, I'm here to meet so and so." They had to take direction of what they were expected to do in the classroom. They mentored and worked in a teacher's classroom and mentored young children. They did weekly reflections. And it was awesome to see them reflect on them thinking about themselves at that age, and also sometimes even being impressed with the young people that they're working with or sometimes like second-graders or first-graders. So building that sense of self to community, building that identity of self, the self-efficacy that they built.

And then I even had juniors... So I ran all the experiential learning for 9th, 10th, and 11th grade. And so our 11th graders did internships. And so some of the reflections that they wrote about was learning how to navigate adult spaces and finding their voice in adult spaces. And worrying that they were asking too many questions or not sure what to do, and then finding their voice in how to navigate. And I had the same experience in my reflection of my internship with Walkabout was learning how it's okay to ask questions, get clarification, and that I had never felt brave enough to do that before. And so it's hard because that's not quantitative data that you can measure in ways that schools are expected to measure. But I strongly believe that those kinds of experiences, how could they not lead to academic success? If you suddenly have that sense of self and you have that personal growth, I just can't imagine that it doesn't translate into some kind of shift in your approach in the classroom. So yeah, I mean to me are some of the benefits that I've seen over the last year.

Elana Leoni:

Yeah. And we talk about education even beyond, short-term academic outcomes in K-12, right? We all talk about what is the role, what are we really trying to do in education? And what you're talking about sets them up for success beyond. How do they find their voice? And we still do this. I'm still finding my voice it feels like, right? But if you start sooner and you have encouragement and you have mentors, it can really set yourself up career-wise to have a thriving life and not just this silo of K-12, did they make a better grade on this standardized test, right?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. And I think we often make the mistake in schools of defining kids solely by their academics. And I think I mentioned how asking kids what they do outside of school. Sometimes we don't ask that question and we don't see kids beyond the student that's sitting in front of me in this specific academic class. So that was really exciting for me to be able to see a side... Most of the students that I mentor through this process, I didn't teach. Some of them I never met, they were just a name in Canvas. Or some of them I'd met maybe to mentor one-on-one, they were struggling to find some kind of opportunity, but it was really neat because I knew them through this totally different lens than their classroom teachers. And so it was really fascinating. But also, going back to our earlier conversation, why this kind of learning really can't be extracurricular or layered on top because if we want to say we're teaching students, we should be teaching the whole student, not just the academic side. And I think that's something that really clicked for me this past year.

Elana Leoni:

Yeah. And you see me head nodding intensely. Yes, yes, yes. I think for most of you EdTech folk that are listening to the podcast, you're like, "Gosh, what y'all talking about experiential learning? How does this apply to my job and my learning?" And know that, Mary Beth, I consider you one of the educators that have always done a really good job of bridging the gap between EdTech and EdTech folk, and also actually practical classroom applications. I remember the blogs you wrote way back in the day to let EdTech people know about how to really communicate and collaborate with educators effectively. Remember that one, I think it was for South by Southwest, we coordinated a blog post a long time ago with Edutopia, but you consistently do that. And I would say that we're talking about experiential learning for all of you to know that you need to know these terms, you need to know the differences between these terms.

And there's no other way. If I see an EdTech company using terms inappropriately, I just go, gosh, they don't get it. And why would I trust them with my learning if they can't even get the terms right? And they don't understand the nuances. So it's really important terminology wise as well. But, Mary Beth, do you want to talk a little bit about when you think about the state of EdTech and as it relates to experiential learning and what they're developing? I know that's a huge question to throw at you, but do you have some thoughts around how they can approach this field a little more mindfully?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the button about buzzwords. Just like if you just toss experiential learning in there, or work-based learning or career-based learning or whatever it is in there because it's trendy or you want to hit a certain market or something like that. It is really important for two reasons, I'm thinking of two specific reasons. One is because, like you said, people will see right through you if you don't actually understand what it means. But number two is you could be perpetuating, it falls poorly defined definition of experiential learning that actually harms children. Where people are saying we're doing one thing, but they're doing something else because you're selling them a product and they're trusting you to know the definition and that, "Oh, well, but they said it's experiential learning and this is their company. How could they possibly get that wrong?"

And so I think there's a responsibility there. And one of the things that I would love to see, let me rephrase that, is people working on tools that help streamline these processes and make them better. Whether it's curriculum, project management, communication tools, for partnerships, helping people build and find partnerships, sharing opportunities, whatever it is. If you're going to say you work through experiential learning, those are the kinds of things that are actually tech related that support experiential learning. And that experiential learning truly is a human-based learning experience. And that if you're going to use that term, that your product should really be supporting young people through that process of identity of self, self to world, self community, and that really that human element in the classroom. Or the consilience, right? Does your tool help connect content areas? Does your tool or your product help create bridges where consilience is streamlined and things can merge or work together? So those are my immediate thoughts.

Elana Leoni:

Yeah. And as you were thinking, I'm like, "Gosh, what if?" And one of my what ifs would be, because we tend to what we call treasure what we measure in educare.

Mary Beth Hertz:

That's right.

Elana Leoni:

No, yeah. And it's really if we have these qualitative things, it makes such a difference in an individual's life, but we can't measure it. Technology can measure it, whether it be qualitative. So think about the things that your product can do that can measure things beyond academic outcomes, whether they be small surveys over time, but there's so much growth that happens with experiential learning just because we don't have a direct dotted line, and maybe there is dotted line in terms of academic outcomes, there's so many qualitative things that happen that technology can help bridge that gap.

Mary Beth Hertz:

For sure. And there are tools out there that are doing that. There are products out there that are doing that, but they're few and far between.

Elana Leoni:

Yeah. Well, I think what I'd love to do is close out, there's so much that we can do and talk about experiential learning. I'd love to add all of your resources in our show notes, including information on your foundation and all of the things. So know that for those of you listening, you can go to our show notes, access the resources to get in touch with Mary Beth as well, to learn more about it. And this isn't something big that has to be this large thing. It can start small and you can piggyback off of other people like Mary Beth was talking about as well.

Mary Beth Hertz:

And I'll add to that when I put the website into the show notes, there is a whole learning model that is there for folks who are interested in implementing this. I mean, it's a whole learning model that folks can follow that's already been implemented for three decades. So just throwing that out there.

Elana Leoni:

Perfect. Our closing questions love to ask our guests is just you as a human. There's so many educators that are beautiful humans, and we just talk about education, but this is a real relevant question because educators put their heart and soul into their work, and you were saying, gosh, it is draining work even though you're seeing such an impact. But what are some of the things that you do when you are feeling drained and you've really kind of dedicated a lot of time and energy into something that fills your cup afterwards, that rejuvenates you? What are some of the things that you do?

Mary Beth Hertz:

One of the things I did today, actually, I love to throw the baseball around with my son. It's like a quick exercise moving around, not too high impact because I still have a good shoulder, but also it's an opportunity to converse with him, right? It's like a chance to have a conversation about what he's thinking about and what he's up to. So it's kind of like I sneak that in there while we're throwing the ball around. And gardening. I love being out in my garden just taking care of plants. I joke that my relaxing hobby is actually more work. And my daughter loves to sing and dance and make art. So as an art teacher, it's fun to see that in her, that she just loves to create and make things.

Elana Leoni:

The connection with the gardens and whatnot, and the connection to the co-ops that you were kind of leading locally in Philadelphia and getting out and just understanding where your food came from and supporting local farmers. Hearing your story and your passion around that actually kind of relaxed me. I was like, "Oh, she has time to nourish herself." So even the small things, I try to teach people on this podcast, small things over time really make a difference and position us to get through the school year. And I don't want to say it in the negative way, but it is very trying and how do-

Mary Beth Hertz:

I mean, we work a full year in 10 months. That's what I tell people. "Oh, you have the summer's off." "Yeah, but I work 60 hours a week for 10 months." And so it's draining. Yeah, like you said, the little things, you don't have to do some fancy spa day or something like that. It's more about just stopping and appreciating the moment and doing things that make you happy, even for 10 minutes.

Elana Leoni:

Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Mary Beth. Again, everyone, we will put all of the resources in the show notes. And I just appreciate your time and, gosh, the decades you have devoted to education and the thousands of kids that have probably look back to you and you were their kind of sparkle and they're saying, "Gosh, I had this one teacher..."

Mary Beth Hertz:

I can only hope. Robotics-

Elana Leoni:

Mary Beth Hertz:

Well, I really appreciate the invitation. I love chatting with you, and I really respect the work that you're doing and that you've been doing, and I'm really glad that we've stayed friends over all these years.

Elana Leoni:

Yes. Decades past Twitter, right?

Mary Beth Hertz:

Yeah.

Elana Leoni:

Everybody for listening, and we will see you next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Thanks again for listening to All Things Marketing and Education. If you like what you heard and want to dive deeper, you can find more episodes@leoniconsultinggroup.com/podcast. You can also continue the conversation with us on Twitter @LeoniGroup or on LinkedIn. And don't forget, if you enjoy today's show, make sure to subscribe to our podcast and leave a review. We're so appreciative of every single subscriber and review we get. And it helps us reach even more people that need help. So we'll see you next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Take care.