What does the music industry actually look like through an economist's eyes?

In this episode of Backstage Money, host Jason K. Powers sits down with Murat Iyigun, Professor of Economics and co-founding guitarist of Red Rock Vixens. Murat spent years at the Federal Reserve under Greenspan, has decades in academia studying how markets really work, and has been building and running a band in Colorado at the same time.

Murat breaks down why musicians are still getting paid the same nominal fee they were in the 1980s, how AI is about to do to music production what Napster did to distribution, why the label system was always a venture capital game, and what Parkinson's Law has to do with why musicians spend every dollar they make. He talks about winner-take-all economics, the Colorado music scene, managing a 7-piece band where scheduling is harder than booking, and why the sugar daddy is gone and musicians have to be their own bank now. Plus Yngwie Malmsteen going bankrupt, the Doc McGhee and Motley Crue story, and why GoFundMe pages keep popping up for musicians who should have been financially set. One of the most honest and eye-opening conversations we have had on this show.

Follow Red Rock Vixens

Website: https://redrockvixens.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/redrockvixens

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/redrockvix

Follow Backstage Money

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/backstagemoney

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/backstagemoney

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@backstagemoney

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@backstagemoney

X (Twitter): https://x.com/jasonkpowers

Free Guide for Musicians

Download A Musician's Guide to Financial Stability

https://1024wealth.com/music

Jason K Powers: Welcome to Backstage Money, Real World Finance for Musicians,

where music and money collide.

I'm your host, Jason K. Powers, and this is the show where we pull

back the curtain on the business and money side of life in music.

Every episode, we sit down with working musicians and industry insiders who

have been figuring it out in the trenches, so you can learn from people

who are actually making it work.

Today's guest is one of the more unique conversations we've had on the show.

Uh, he's a co-founding guitarist for Red Rock Vixens here in Colorado, a

band he built from the ground up with a vision and a whole lot of hustle.

He's also a professor of economics at University of Colorado Boulder.

Born in Turkey, where he played in rock bands as a kid, he eventually made his

way to Colorado and has been doing both music and teaching economics ever since.

His playing is rooted in blues and shaped by guys like Freddie King,

Gary Moore, and above all, Brian May.

Murat Iyigun, welcome to Backstage Money

Thanks, Jason.

That's a super nice intro.

I appreciate it.

Jason K Powers: Yep, yep.

Yeah, it's been fun.

I appreciated getting to know you over the past couple of months a little bit

and you know, seeing you guys play here and there, and I appreciate you being on.

I love starting out with everybody and just kind of getting the backstory.

How'd you get into this?

How'd you get into music?

you are not a Colorado native.

Oh,

Jason K Powers: you've had your journey

Definitely not even from the US.

Well, my, I have a mixed background.

I grew up and I was born in Turkey, Ankara, the capital, in the '70s.

I was born in the '60s, but my growing up and musical introduction

came in the, mid to late '70s.

and my mom is an American citizen.

She was born here, so I always had this American connection even back then.

But even in a country like Turkey, which is obviously Middle Eastern,

Muslim, and back in the '70s when things were a lot more closed Turkey

being a country between, like a bridge between, Europe and the Middle East,

has that unique flavor of having a lot of Middle Eastern, Mediterranean stuff,

but also very Western stuff, right?

Western.

So, we grew up with the same kind of culture that you guys grew

up with here in terms of music, TV shows, and everything else.

So, I had two older sisters who basically introduced me to music, when I was

probably about 12, 11, and I remember hearing on a cassette tape Jimi Hendrix,

Jason K Powers: yeah

Cat Stevens and the Eagles and the ELOs came, and then by about 14,

of course, I, I decided, I have my own taste, so, that's where I started to get

into more rock stuff, and that was like the heyday of the Kiss pinnacle years.

then I discovered Queen, that was really, that's really what really inspired me.

It's still one by far the, band and the musicians I, admire the most.

And then of course in the… So about the late '70s and '80s I

started to dabble in music, pick up a guitar, try to learn stuff.

and then had our, kiddy bands in the early '80s and things like that.

one, one unique, the most unique memory I had is through our circle

of friends, ended up having son of the Swiss ambassador band, he had a

Jason K Powers: Really?

and, you know, we were able to practice in the

Swiss Embassy right below the visa office which was super cool.

It's like,

Jason K Powers: I

"Oh my God, this is a beautiful setting."

Jason K Powers: Yeah, that's right

more than playing music, but it was fun.

Jason K Powers: That's right.

So when, so how old were you when you got into, you started

playing guitar first, right?

started playing about

Jason K Powers: Okay

picked up an acoustic guitar, and listening to stuff

and taking some lessons, piano lessons and things like that.

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: Okay.

So

Jason K Powers: Okay.

And then

been my whole life

Jason K Powers: yeah, and then as gr- growing up, so then you came from Turkey.

Where'd you go first?

I grew up in Turkey.

I, in fact, did my undergraduate in Turkey too.

but my mom being, part American, we always had… Like, my sister eventually

moved back to the US, so I came after I did my undergrad in Turkey.

I came to US for a year, at Ohio State, back.

I never had intentions of moving to the US.

I really liked Turkey.

The culture and everything really appealed to me.

But then of course, this being the Middle East, the '80s, you

know, of turmoil, limited economic means, the same old story, right?

eventually, I made my way to the US after I got married with my wife.

We moved to Boston, where I started my MBA.

This is '89.

So since '89, we've been here nonstop permanently.

So started on the East Coast, an MBA.

It was just about the Gulf War, when I graduated, so limited job opportunities,

and I really realized I like-- I was not a great undergraduate student.

I thought I was gonna be a musician, so it was all in the background.

But I realized I really liked econ, so started taking econ electives.

And then when the job market prospects were bleak, I'm like, "Oh, maybe I can

do a PhD in this. I seem to have a knack for it." So applied to some programs and

then ended up in the PhD program at Brown.

Graduated from there.

My first job then took me to DC for five years, where I was

on the Federal Reserve Board.

Um,

Jason K Powers: Okay

the, the Greenspan era, the Clinton years.

It was lots of fun.

Seeing policy, represented the US in international meetings, like the OECD

meetings and stuff, so that was fun.

lots of interesting experience.

And then, but my heart was in academia to have the freedom basically, to do

the kind of research that I liked.

So ended up in Colorado in 2000.

Jason K Powers: So what was that like, in this era in DC?

I mean, in the… You know, I like economics.

I like

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: financial side and the economic side of

it, and what was that like?

And were you doing music at that time?

I mean, or had you kinda paused things

so that's a good question.

I, you know, doing a PhD obviously is very strenuous, right?

So for like-- then early in my career, I, there was a stretch about 10 years

where I didn't touch the guitar.

But in graduate school, I was still playing.

I'd go to concerts.

Saw lots of great acts

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

a PhD student.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Saw Van Halen, Foxborough, which was awesome.

Rush in Providence and all those bands.

But yeah, it was mostly in the background.

So by the time I started at the Fed it had faded a little bit.

In that next seven to eight years, I really almost barely touched the guitar.

The Fed was really interesting.

I was actually the first… of the first international people

hired because you need security clearance 'cause you're seeing lots

of State Department communication, 'cause I was an international

Jason K Powers: sure

covering foreign economies.

so you had to have CIA clearance for a lot of that stuff.

So early on during those days, you had to be an American citizen, and I

was a dual citizen, so I was hired.

And after, when I was leaving about five years later, they'd relaxed

that 'cause they were struggling.

A lot of economists started to become foreigners, so they were

struggling with that rule, so they relaxed it a little bit.

So after I left, started to see more and more foreigners being hired by the Fed.

but during my era, I was one of the first ones that was also a foreign citizen, so.

Um,

Jason K Powers: was kind of your main function

I was hired to cover the Italian economy first, but this

was to 2000, so during the time I was there, the euro was being born, right?

So, and then the European… Right?

So it was, by the time I left, I was covering all of the European economy.

One of the economists covering the European economy.

And that's one of the reasons I left, because early on, I had the freedom

to do the kind of economic research I like to do, which is a lot of economic

history, political economy stuff.

but by the time I left being a Eurozone economist, there,

you're constantly in meetings, constantly preparing reports, right?

Because they're

Jason K Powers: Yeah

You know, Italy is, it's a fun country, but it's not like,

in terms of economics, it's not one country that gets a lot of attention.

But the Eurozone as a whole did, right?

Jason K Powers: Sure, sure.

And then what took you to Colorado?

Uh, the job.

So, I was publishing at that point, wanted to make the switch

to academia for the freedom.

Had two or three universities that I was talking to, and Colorado came through

with a good offer, so that took us here

Jason K Powers: Good deal.

Good deal.

S- and then you kind of kicked off, if I remember correctly, you kicked

off a band once you got back here

Yeah, it t-

Jason K Powers: or some time later, right?

a little bit.

You know, early on I was still focused on my career, so I had a really

great, great stretch of publishing and playing the economics game.

music was always in my heart in the background.

about 2008 or so, I started to dabble back in and I'm like, "Oh, I need to take this

seriously again." Then after a couple of years I started Blues Jams, which is a

great place to, network and, hone your live stage act skills and everything else.

So did that a little bit and then ended up in a blues band of, three other guys

for, like, ab- about a year and a half.

And then at that point I wa- you know, I like blues, but it's…

Blues is very difficult, to be honest.

You can always fake it at a superficial surface level, but being a great blues

musician takes a lot of different skills than the set that I have.

And, my heart was always in the more, like, rock, '70s, '80s rock kind of stuff.

So, about 12 years ago, I started my own band which was still more like a

jam band because, I wanted to have the flexibility to be able to work with

different musicians, to be able to pick up the gigs, then assemble the musicians.

So it was a lot of more jam kind of stuff.

Later that band evolved to become of a rock band with a, women-fronted

rock band, uh, variety rock band.

And then in that band, after the pandemic, we started to have our singer,

Amy Gray, start to recruit some other singers just as a backup or substitute

or so- for some bigger gigs where we needed more presence on the stage.

And then through that, we met the people that you see the stars of the show in

Red Rock Vixens, Abby, and, and Mackenna.

And then for one gig, for some reason I can't recall how, but about a

couple of years ago, we had them all three together on stage, it's that

classic moment of, sparks flying and you see something special is

Jason K Powers: Yeah

stage where it became clear, "Okay, this is it, right?

We need to build this up," kind of thing.

Jason K Powers: Right.

Which at the end…

Jason K Powers: and you had…

yeah,

Jason K Powers: Sorry, you had sort of rebranded at this point.

You had started out as…

to the rebrand because this was the summer of

Jason K Powers: Okay

'24 when we realized, okay, this is special.

So in the fall we rebranded with the emphasis of the three, women-fronted

singers of a rock band kind of idea

Jason K Powers: yep, yep.

So I thought it was unique because you started as a single female-fronted

band, and then y- this evolved, right?

This aha moment was when you had all three on stage, and now it's a trio

Yeah

Jason K Powers: stage.

And, and I think that's what gives it its uniqueness and, and really

know, obviously they're super talented, great stage presence,

but there was also chemistry, right?

You als- you always wonder, i- is the chemistry gonna work?

And so they're wonderful people, so that all worked, yeah

Jason K Powers: And then so the rebranding happened post-COVID?

Oh yeah, this is-- everything is post-COVID.

Like the female-fronted version of the band was about '22.

that for a couple years, and then this serendipity happened mid-summer '24.

Rebranded in the fall of '24, and the first show is where

you saw us, but January '25.

So the band is

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah

formation, in this current evolution

Jason K Powers: Yep, yep.

So what's the dual role, let's talk about the dual role for a minute kind

of as, founder and manager, guitarist.

How's that work?

And, and then you've got… I mean, you- it's not just the three singers, right?

'Cause you have

Yeah

Jason K Powers: other band members as well

Yeah, yeah.

No, it's a seven-piece band, right?

So the three main singers a keyboard player, guitar player, and the

rhythm section, bass and drums.

And everybody pitches in, at some level.

Obviously I do, the booking side, the finance, keeping the books and

everything, and the main contact person.

The vixens are pretty much the artistic drive, right, in terms of

song selection and interpretation, all that kind of stuff.

Our stage manager is Kevin on drums, so he does all the stage

management, our rig on stage.

And Tone the keyboard player, who's the most veteran musician among

us, time musician in the Colorado scene going back to the '70s.

He's our official music director, right?

Jason K Powers: Yeah, there you go.

There you go

conflict, he's the, you know, he's the deciding vote

Jason K Powers: Good.

Yeah, he's sharp.

He was a kick,

Yeah

Jason K Powers: to visit with on stage there.

Okay, so been around a year and a half.

When we talked a couple weeks ago we got on a conversation about kind of

building the band up and investing in the band and just walk me through

kind of what that looks like.

Yeah, so I mean, we had the advantage obviously of

having, me having this 10, 12 years in the music, scene in Colorado.

That really helps.

Starting from scratch is not an easy thing, as you obviously know, right?

Breaking into the better venues.

It's all… you can't just be like, "Oh, here's our band.

We're great, now book us." Typically things take a lot more

blood, tears, and sweat than

Jason K Powers: Yes

So it was good to be able to use as a, foundation the

band and the network that I had.

So that was really good because like I said, we rebranded and I knew we had like

to 12 gigs in the books for next year.

It was just, I was gonna show up as Red Rock Vixens, not Custom Shop

band, and I knew this was a lot better band than what we had before.

So it was easier sell, right?

But we didn't have to struggle with booking and marketing

and everything else, right?

So, like the Facebook page, Instagram, all that was ready for us.

But obviously, seven-piece band, the economics is very different and

very difficult, in this environment.

Especially if you're, mostly a local band.

So early on, a lot of the marketing, a lot of the, overhead costs of setting

up like the band site and the Drive and everything else obviously is something

that you need to cover and finance.

So that's all was done.

Jason K Powers: Yes.

Right.

H- how have you navigat- I mean, what are some of the struggles, maybe for

the listeners, what are some of the struggles they could be watching out

for, or some of the struggles they could see that you guys have gone

through, that you've worked through?

As a seven-piece band, I mean, that's not a small, it's not a three or four piece.

You know, that's, that's, you have quite a

Yeah,

Jason K Powers: more people and, but now you have three female-fronted

artists and that's a good mix, right?

You said everybody getting along is rather important with that higher number.

yeah

Jason K Powers: uh, so what's kinda some things you've run into that maybe, uh,

would help artists in that perspective?

Yeah, I mean, obviously it's not easy, right?

Music like academia and music share that thing where the product is yourself, so

your ego is always in the way, right?

It's-- That's inevitable.

There's gonna be conflict.

I think there are two ways to go around that, right?

One is for people to be professionals, right?

So, you need to show up.

If you committed to something you're doing it the best you can.

two, I think really the key deciding factor there is in the long run, once

the band starts to have some success, right, that becomes the real glue.

Because this is the most brutal industry that you can be in, like

in terms of competitiveness, right?

This is really the economists call the perfectly competitive markets

with zero barriers to entry, right?

Anybody who says, "I pick up an instrument, now I'm singing, I'm a singer,

I'm a band," right, you're out there.

So, there's no nothing that blocks the competition.

But once you can secure some level of attention and good gigs and good

venues and decent pay, you know, that attracts a lot of talent and

hopefully keeps them in the band too.

But you know, any person realistic on the scene who's done this locally,

internationally will tell you, managing a band is not easy, right?

I mean, I'm not above the fray in terms of my ego as my bandmates.

And so over the long run, you have people you work with and people you part ways

with, and that's part of the business.

Jason K Powers: So let's talk about kind of the

Maybe we'll start with the Colorado conversation since that's where we're at

the economics of the, the music industry in Colorado, and then expand that,

Sure

Jason K Powers: to a more what's going on on a national level.

I know, you have some opinions on that.

And so like the Colorado music market specifically, what makes it unique and

competitive and how does that pan out?

How do you see that maybe compared to other areas?

So let me frame this discussion a little bit, right?

My musician experience is very local, Colorado.

Oh, we did go on a tour with the, with Red Rock Vixens last fall to back

to my home country, to Turkey, where we did gigs, which was super fun.

tiring, but rewarding, but that's a whole different aspect.

But most of my experience really in terms of the music business is very

local, very Colorado focused, right?

So we need to be aware of that.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

I'm happy to discuss the more the global music scene

evolution, but that will be more of my economist speaking rather than

the musician speaking, so we need to

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

aware of that too.

So I will be very careful about that.

Colorado's really interesting in that it has, given its size, I think it's a very

lively and a good quality music market.

It's obviously not, Nashville or Austin or, LA.

But you have really a deep pool of talent here.

Some of the best bands are really outstanding, so it's a competitive market.

So that's great, right?

You can find some of the best musicians you can find that

are international caliber.

I worked with some incredible musicians.

had a drummer in this band in 2008 who then moved to Illinois, Don Stoll.

Hats off, like this guy was an international caliber

drummer, really, that level.

And you find people like that in Colorado, which is great, right?

At the same time, the big constraint is you're talking about six and a

half million people in Colorado.

In metro Denver, three and a half million people.

So scale matters, right?

Being a band in… obviously if you're in, Austin, Nashville,

competition scales up too, manyfold.

But the demand side also picks up.

One offset in Colorado is a lot of the breweries which offer, venues

and opportunities to gig, but they're typically mid to low market, right?

Which actually sustained the band as a custom shop band, for eight

to 10 years which was great.

So it's really unique blend of a music setting that way

Jason K Powers: What have you found… I mean, from my side of

it, there's hardly a night that you couldn't go find live music somewhere.

I mean, really.

And obviously summertime it ramps up,

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: and you have all the outdoor stuff going on, you

know, and, even some which this week I'll see you guys at, and

Yeah

Jason K Powers: that we're recording this.

And you talked about the, you talked about the the brewery scene.

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: You know, the brewery thing kicked up and you get the live

music the local live bar night kind of stuff, and then there's the bigger venues.

how are you getting, how are you finding bands of your caliber are

Getting these gigs, I guess, what's kind of the hustle for someone

to go out there and find gigs and is it just hope you get found?

I doubt,

Yeah Yeah I mean, frankly with my experience, right?

With this band and how it evolved, hustle was all early on, right?

Because once… like I said, once you know, "Oh, okay, we got something

special here," And then you gig four or five times, and the audience

response just validates that.

And then now, within a couple of months of us starting venues started to contact us.

In fact, a lot of venues that I was writing incessantly,

emailing, texting, phoning, right?

Like the, the big ones that you know, let me not mention names.

But some of them that I had-- I struggled to get in, right?

Within a couple of months, the word gets around.

And again, maybe the benefit of a Colorado, it's small, right?

So within two, three months, we started to see all of us.

"Oh, okay, everybody's talking about this band now." And in fact, a lot of

the places that never returned my emails, suddenly I open the band email, "Oh,

there's an email from such and such.

They wanna see our available dates." And so really, the last year and a

half, it wasn't struggling to get gigs.

The other constraint I should tell you, which is a super important aspect of

the modern mu- music industry, in a band with seven band members that's really,

above certain quality, the reality of the music business is you don't

have any exclusive band mates, right?

You're at that level where you're local, but you're elite, but

you're not international, right?

So you don't have people on retainer.

It's not like I can pay people 40 50 K and take, you know, the

time off until we tour, right?

You're at that

Jason K Powers: Yeah

Everybody who's a decent musician is-- has multiple engagements.

So like our calendar, even starting the year, when I take into account

everybody's other projects and other involvements and travel, you know,

you're really talking about thirty-five, forty, forty-five gigs in total, right?

So this point, it's not even hustling for anything.

It's like, "Oh, is everybody available?" So it's really the, the supply that's

the constraint, not the demand.

Jason K Powers: Yeah Yeah.

I can't imagine.

We talked about that too, trying to get seven people scheduled

Yeah

Jason K Powers: have also other things going on,

yep, yep

Jason K Powers: and what a mess that could be potentially if you're not careful.

You know, if you're not planning far enough down the road,

yeah,

Jason K Powers: and getting this stuff-

biggest constraint, right?

Even rehearsals and things like that, p- people have day jobs,

people have multiple projects.

Plus at least two of our singers, basically are also

heavily involved in theater.

Their background is theater.

So there's also that aspect, sometimes traveling for that too.

of our singers has a very successful band in California, an '80s cover band.

So Makena travels to California almost every other week.

She'll often do a gig like Friday in California, hop on

a plane Saturday morning, and gig with us Saturday afternoon.

So, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

So I mean,

Jason K Powers: Busy

that's really… and again, y- I said, it's, it, yeah, and

it, that's a feature of like modern economies in almost any industry.

Once you break to that where you're getting attention, become a little

bit easier, but really the hustle is really front-loaded, right?

Jason K Powers: Right.

It is.

I, and I hear that from artists in general, like, you gotta, the

stuff is not gonna fall in your lap

No,

Jason K Powers: early on, you know?

And

have to, be super persistent.

Polite, persistent, but always like, if the venues are up your

alley, they're the premier venues, you need to constantly hit them up.

And you have to have the product.

If you don't have the product, right, they're gonna be polite, but they're…

And then you… Like, if you're realistic, right?

It's very difficult to be realistic with anything that we produce, right?

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

realistic then you see like, oh, there are like 40 other bands like us.

Why would they hire us?

Right?

That's the key question.

Why would they hire you?

If you have a confident answer to that, then it's like, oh, you

walk in, already you won the game.

Because like, do you see another band like this?

No.

So

Jason K Powers: Yeah,

you

Jason K Powers: yeah.

of course,

Jason K Powers: I, I think that's important though

But I'll be honest, right?

I mean, from the venue's perspective, they don't care about the quality all.

What they care about is walk in there and there's like 500 people following you in,

you can just sit and tell them like Dr.

Seuss stories.

They don't

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

if you bring in the crowd and it sells, you

Jason K Powers: Reading the crowd.

Yeah

it.

They, they don't care about anything else.

in fact Doc McGhee, the famous manager who managed Bon Jovi, Mötley Crüe, Kiss.

You watching his interview recently, he was like…

He said something that was super interesting, like very enlightening.

These people that s- have so many decades of experience, they say some stuff

like, it was so true, like he nailed it.

Like he said, "Until I saw Mötley Crüe, I used to go in there and look

at the bands from my perspective.

Mötley Crüe was the first band where I went some LA, venue,"

he said, "I just didn't get it.

It was awful.

It was awful.

They were like bad, like everything.

Like it was my taste, the band was bad.

I turned around and looked at the venue, 3,000 people screaming their

heads off, and I'm like, 'Okay, I need to go with what they think.'"

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

So I think that's really the key thing, right?

I mean, that's really what drives, and that's the way most venues

that are on the bottom line, that's the way they operate, right?

If you bring in the crowd, they're happy, don't care.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and that's, that we can kind of spin that into this conversation

of economics and what's gone on in the industry over the years

Yeah

Jason K Powers: There's a lot of discussion about, for example, a lot of

perspective is people are getting paid the same today as they were in the '80s

Exactly.

Jason K Powers: And that, that hurts because

In

Jason K Powers: everything else has gone up

a- as an economist, least let's make that clear, right?

Getting paid in nominal terms what they were pay- getting paid in the '80s, right?

So you gig a night get paid like 150, 200 bucks if you're lucky

today, what they used to get paid in nominal terms in the '80s.

So if you do the math with inflation, the real pay is minuscule, like

many, many times smaller than what people were getting paid back then

Jason K Powers: Right.

What's been, what do you think has been the biggest

I guess, stumbling block for musicians in that area trying to make it

Yeah, I mean, that's really the biggest thing, right?

The music industry's changed so much.

It's a struggle, right?

I see a lot of full-time professional musicians actually having day jobs

that are probably not related, right?

So it's become one of those things where, know, unless you're at the very

top like Taylor Swift, Harry Styles or something like that, where you have

these scale advantages of touring.

The classic cliché, and this is again my of the economist experience all of the

revenue now is on touring and live music.

So how do you then manage-- how do you manage being an original band?

How do you scale to that level?

And of course, lot of the things that we've experienced in the economy overall

and since the '80s, after 2000, really changed completely the music industry,

like this classic stuff we talk about.

But I find this fascinating because I think now we're undergoing

another watershed moment in music because I can tell you, like,

just the general perspective on econ, like, music industry, right?

one thing that started to happen with globalization and more integrated

markets around the world that a couple of economists from Cornell identified

in the '90s and wrote a very successful book called Winner-Take-All Economy.

integrated markets, more common culture, easier travel, easier dissemination,

i-in almost all industries, you started to have these monopoly powers,

basically very few top, acts in that industry getting most of the rewards.

And then even if you're super successful in the next five percent, return to that

segment really started to fall, right?

I mean, think about the bookstores.

What happened to bookstores, right?

Small mom and bookstores that were very popular in the '70s,

'80s, had many generations.

we have, internet, Amazon, Costcos, Borders, Barnes & Noble.

First they took over, right, scale.

So they drove the mom-and-pop stores out.

And then Amazon came selling books online and drove Barnes

& Noble and Borders out, right?

So this, like, scale effect, only the very top big ones getting all

the rewards unique to industry, but ha-happened in the music industry as well.

Right?

So that was one important development.

And of course, in music, the key event was the Napster, the file-sharing digital

music, really completely changed how music is disseminated and marketed, right?

Suddenly, music dissemination marketing costs are nearly zero.

All the intermediaries that really made a living from that, the record

stores, the producers and everything, like it's a completely upended, right?

Completely different world.

and that really changed everything.

So that made original music marketing production costly the,

because the returns dropped, right?

Because you're selling music online for like a couple of

cents instead of an album.

So that really lowered the cost of distribution marketing.

now, the last couple of years with artificial intelligence and these

music artificial intelligence websites, I think that's happening with

production, 'cause produc- producing of music was still costly, right?

If you wanted to do original music or put a record out, you still had

to hire the musicians, do the studio time, all of the rehearsal, go in the

studio, hire a producer, director, produce the album, mix it, right?

All that stuff was still very costly.

It's just that once the product was out there, was available

for everybody f- freely.

Now, I think what's happening music production costs are driving to zero,

and that I think is gonna change the music industry in ways that

people can't even fathom right now

Jason K Powers: In what ways?

So I think the new model, and in fact, I see

this in Turkey even this summer.

Like, in Turkey, one of the most popular summer songs is, I'm pretty sure it's,

like, an anonymous person who… it's an original song, I think it got a lot

of help with artificial intelligence.

it's a person who's anonymous who says, "Oh, once I have a few more hits,

that's when I'm gonna reveal who I am, and that's when I'm gonna tour." But,

like, the biggest song on the Turkish charts right now in Turkey is, like,

a song that's basically online and probably produced at virtually zero cost.

So that model, I think what we're gonna see in the next five years,

a lot of people producing music, it freely, and then once they hit, then

I'm like, "Okay, get the band together.

Now we can tour." Right?

So even producing it has become… You know, stuff that you, you think about

Billy Eilish and his brother, right?

He had a brother, they're a musical family.

He's obviously a very gifted person, and he creates these songs, and she's

talented, so they put it online, and then suddenly it blows up, right?

But you still had to have that brother, like the Quincy

Jones equivalent close to you.

Now you don't.

These AI sites… In fact, I had, like, songs that I was working on e- the

last eight, nine years, original songs.

Some of which I had demos with my band.

But you know, I basically fed those to these online sites, and what you get

in back in return is incredible, right?

Jason K Powers: Yeah

you know, you disseminate that for free, and if

one takes off, becomes a hit, right?

Now you have the foundation, build a band around it and tour

if you want and things like that.

So, like, it's almost the whole economics of, "Oh, I'm gonna allocate $50,000

to produce this original album." Hire the musicians, do all that stuff.

It's like you're in the hole.

makes zero sense now.

Why do that, right?

Jason K Powers: So do you,

all your creative

Jason K Powers: do you think

to creating it, and then wait until, they bite.

Jason K Powers: Yeah, yeah.

I think it's an interesting perspective because right now predominantly the,

those in the primary music industry see, are very anti-AI, right?

You have pretty much only two sides.

There's not, there's a very few who are kind of in the middle right now, at

least publicly who, or who will admit it, and you have this kind of anti-AI even

so far as creating graphics for your, artwork for, for your albums and stuff.

Yeah

Jason K Powers: you know, a lot of… i'm in all kinds of groups online

and stuff and the conversations when you start seeing AI produced cover

art it really gets ripped apart.

Sure

Jason K Powers: Um, and it's certainly if there's any hint of creating your

music with AI, uh, right now it's, it's a difficult uphill battle.

And, and now you have the discussion, you know, we've

had Suno and, and all of these,

sure

Jason K Powers: These AI people out there.

So, so I, I mean, do you think as a whole, AI is a threat, is

a tool, a little bit of both?

None of it matters.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

L- because look, I'm an economist, obviously, I

have that perspective, economics always wins in the end, right?

So you've seen what happened with digital music, the resistance to that.

musicians, resistance and opposition, which had legitimate reasons, right?

I mean, I understand you have all this creative input, you created this

song you want a return on, right?

But suddenly, with this new industry, this new technology,

return on it has become two cents.

It's the old Luddites in England issue with technology, right?

When there's a new technology that drives cost to zero, can fight over it all you

want, but the economics of it is gonna drive the evolution in the long run.

If there's an example where that was successfully avoided, I'd like to hear it.

I haven't seen it in history.

So, I understand the disdain towards… And let's be honest, right?

I'm sorry.

With digital music there are two versions.

You can get online and say, "Oh, yeah, make me a song that's

romantic," blah, blah, blah.

That's one way to do it, and it spits out some very generic music for you

that sounds polished and everything.

But you, you can feed your original eis- ideas into that, right?

Give it the demos, your ideas, the motifs the riffs, and then build

it on there, and then where you create all these, tracks, basically.

And that's a super valuable tool because that made basically production

a lot easier and cheaper, right?

Suddenly everybody has access to a, virtual Quincy Jones.

Um,

Jason K Powers: Yeah

musicians, quote-unquote, hate it and fight it all they want,

they're gonna fight it into oblivion.

the reality of the dollars and cents

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

So what should the musician

potentially be doing to kind of prepare for this shift

that we're in the middle of?

I

Yeah, I think like with every new technology, there's

dangers and opportunities, but there's lots of opportunities, right?

And the opportunity is really if you're into original music, creating

something original, now you have this vast catalog and support online

really build up your own unique sound.

And of course, that's the beauty of it too because, yes, like a lot of stuff that

comes out of AI sound very homogenous, and that's not gonna sell, right?

That's gonna be… You're not gonna stand out.

Like we talked about the local industry, you have to have a product that's unique.

But these AI tools, for people can, who have the talent, who have the

vision or the artistic gift to produce something unique, are gonna be able

to use these tools to get their stuff out there with nearly zero production

cost, nearly zero distribution cost, and some of them are gonna stand out.

And then the ones that are successful musicians in the long run are gonna be

the ones who can have that online presence and convert into a real music act that

can tour make the tour revenue too.

So that's the way I see it, right?

A lot of the successful international acts are gonna have roots in…

Like, what is the modern musical gifted discovery,

right, in the last 10, 15 years?

People who produce stuff in their basement, put it on YouTube, right?

Blew up and became successful.

so now I think that's gonna keep happening but with production also being very cheap

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so it's kind of finding a balance is staying on the curve with technology,

Yeah

Jason K Powers: finding a balance to not

I think the music industry, the musicians want

To hold onto that creativeness, rightfully so.

And the listener wants that uniqueness,

Yep

Jason K Powers: but

To monetize what you're doing, the listener is gonna really

buy what speaks to them,

Yeah, exactly.

Jason K Powers: in the end

Exactly.

That's where the creative stuff comes in, right?

The creativity, the return to creativity is never gonna diminish, but the

economic cost of the media is gonna drive where the music is coming from.

I feel there's no stopping that because it's so cheap

Jason K Powers: Right.

Right

Right?

Because look, I mean, think about it, right?

Every new production that takes 40, 50K, the new album, how

many of them are successful?

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Less than .111%, right?

So a lot of it is sunk money that's gone.

Now you can do that for cheap.

A lot of it is also gonna be very useless and not successful, but some of them are

gonna be unique, like this song that I told you about and that's become a big

hit in Turkey, because it is unique.

Incredible lyrics, incredible interpretation.

and the thing is, if it's like AI, like the person… the artist

needs to be authentic, right?

can't have an AI band.

At the end of the day, in order to be a successful musical act,

you need to be flesh and bones.

You need to be out there and playing that music that people heard

online that became a hit, right?

If you d- can't deliver that, it's gonna be… you had your five minutes of fame.

Andy Warhol,

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

15 minutes of fame, you're done.

So that's the way I see, more the pipeline for successful musicians in the future.

I think it's inevitable,

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

of the cost

Jason K Powers: Right

So any- anything else on the economic side you see coming down the line or

that you think that musicians should pivot to or be considering entertaining?

Even on the… when I think economics, I'm thinking about

What are we doing with the money we have that we're making right

now, and where can we place it?

Not, and not just

s- squander it, I guess, for lack of better words, we- there are a

million and one resources out there about people talking about how to

make money in the music business.

Here's how you dot, dot, dot.

How to make the money.

And then my conversations with musicians are always, "How do

we keep the money we're making?

Now that you've made it or you're making some, what are we gonna do with it?" You

Yep

Jason K Powers: A- and that's when I think econo- Right?

My, my economic m- mind, I guess, pivots that direction immediately

and goes, "Fine. Once we've made it, what are we doing with it?"

You know

Right Exactly I mean that's where the some of the tools that you

offer are super valuable music is one of those industries where the income

is highly risky and volatile right So

Jason K Powers: compared

to professions where the income is steady and more certain you

certainly need to save more That's just the nature of the business right So that's

why you it's already a very competitive super competitive industry where margins

are thin razor thin you make it to that very top when suddenly the floodgates

are open right at some level of success if you're having some income stream like

a and it doesn't take an economist to say this right you've had leaner days

optimal thing to do is always to put your money in assets that will be able

to earn income for you right as opposed to somebody who has the steady income

and can basically use their income to to float and don't necessarily need that

extra saving What we what economists call precautionary saving right in

industries like this where there's risk and a lot of volatility in income is

super important right I mean without that who are successful of that with that

obviously have a huge advantage because now if you can create that income stream

the more time you'll be able to allocate to your main profession which is music

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

without that we see more and more economists having to

get a day job right So you're working nine to five and then you work like

a nighttime musician right So all of that factors in there I think

Jason K Powers: Well, and that's been a conversation a lot is

You know, because it, things can ebb and flow, or you get the day

job to, to get by or save up for the next piece of equipment, or

Yeah

Jason K Powers: build, right?

We, you and I have talked about reinvesting in the business,

Yeah

Jason K Powers: You, even taking what you're making when you're playing and

reinvesting that back into the band, or making, being consistent about taking

a portion of that and reinvesting it back in the band, and that's

been a conversation I've had often with musicians is, yes, we have this

ebb-and-flow cycle, peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys.

And like you said, if we're not saving in some fashion, I think

we're just constantly gonna be looking over our shoulder

Oh yeah

Jason K Powers: going "When's the next valley, and how

expensive is that gonna be?"

Yep

Jason K Powers: and trying to find a way to level out those peaks and valleys

Yeah exactly

Jason K Powers: via consistent income or via a way of saving that you can

access to level out the low times, right?

And fill in those-

Exactly and th this is the industry where in the old days

three generations ago where they didn't have to worry about it right If a as a

musician whole goal was to get that record label contract because they sustained

you they financed you they smoothed over those ebbs and flows Now the sugar

daddy's gone and you need to be your own sugar daddy right I mean that's what it

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

to

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Like even Deep

Jason K Powers: Yeah

was a venture capitalist idea who said Oh this band works great

so I'm gonna hire this apartment for you You guys are gonna live here I'm

paying for everything Couple of records later they broke through Done right

But it's always been music It was always been a very venture capitalist

industry right There are these

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

rare huge rewards and you're just firing constantly missing until you

hit that big reward there used to be a an infrastructure to sustain that finance

most of which is now gone So you're gonna be successfully in the music industry

devoting most of your time and attention without the worries of Who's gonna pay

my electricity bill Oh my car broke down right let alone insurance and all that

kind of stuff you need to carve out this very difficult financial management the

moment you're having some stream of income it's lethally essential you actually

figure out this problem of making the money work for you aside some If you come

from a leaner background you have this windfall forget it Just put it somewhere

Like you you're used to lean stuff just keep living that way another couple

of years Pretend it didn't happen uh

Jason K Powers: Yeah

five years down the road whether you're still doing this

business really depends on that Unless you have Taylor Swift's dads right Who

Jason K Powers: Sure.

No who

Jason K Powers: Sure.

I think it's great 'cause there's this thing we, we talk about, it's called

Parkinson's law, you know, where kind of a three-part component to it, right?

Expenses rise to equal income is one part.

So, when our income goes up, as you talked about, we have these windfalls,

we tend to go, "Okay, well I can…

That means I can spend a little bit more." And that's something

that will catch you off guard.

It will bite you if you're not quite careful with it.

Exactly

Jason K Powers: We have another part of that is kind of this work expands to

meet the time envelope allowed meaning, if you give somebody 30 days to do it,

they're gonna take 30 days to do it even though they could get it done in a week.

And so I think that mindset, you think about hiring contractors to

fix something, you could hire them to fix the same job twice, give them two

weeks on one and a month on the other.

He took two weeks and a month, even though you already knew

he could do it in two weeks.

Yeah

Jason K Powers: But I think we do it, monetarily speaking.

We go, "Well,

Yep

Jason K Powers: got, we've got time.

We've got…

Exactly

Jason K Powers: get this figured out later.

We can do this later."

Exactly

Jason K Powers: that Parkinson's law idea is something we have to really

whip into shape, as you would say.

Exactly That's You nailed it And that raises another interesting

thing that we didn't touch upon right I mean modern economies especially the US

and I try to tell this to my students sometimes I I'll hint with bandmates

too but again like egos are important right In academia and music too we live

now in a world where comp there's super competition There's no ways around this

But things are segmented right I mean as Red Rock Vixens once we achieve this

right your competition is another 10 15 bands that are like s like you so the

modern world really puts you in bins of competition I mean think about kids right

You're like a smart kid good s student high school acing gifted and talented

and all that kind of stuff ace then that kid ends up at Duke or MIT or Harvard and

the first thing they learn after a week you know what Everybody is smart as you

Jason K Powers: Yeah

is talented as you So who's gonna be the successful one So

the bottom line is it's always focus and determination and drive right and

this ties into this idea Oh you got a windfall Y this is your lifestyle Yeah

give yourself a reward 10 15 but set aside that 80 Pretend it didn't come

You have a month Do it in two weeks Hunker down do it in two weeks because

your competition is doing it in 10 days At the end of the day I feel like you

know in academia I've I've had a very successful academic career frankly last

10 15 years I'm really putting a lot more effort into music so that always has a

cost But the bottom line is I've seen super gifted and talented people very

successful people in music and in academia and they share one thing in common right

they just work hard and they are so focused They are focused

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Because they know the next person sitting with them next

office in Harvard or the next big musician big deal is as talented as

them as gifted as them People love them as much So who's gonna win The

Jason K Powers: Yep

who's 5 more focused working 5 harder That's what really decides the

winner at the top And I think regardless of whether you're in music or whatever

you do this is the uncomfortable fact in the modern economy right You just

need to You want it Hunker down baby

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Cause

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

And I think the

looks the gift the voice the guitar artistry and wizardry

there's another guy at like 15 like you

Jason K Powers: Yeah

That's gonna fade one day so what's the rest

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

It's been a, it's been a conversation we've had many times about

Work hard, put in the effort, watch the windfalls.

You know, musicians, the stereotype, a lot of m- musicians will go, "Well,

I- I'm a musician, not a, financial expert." I say, "Well, fine, but

you need to know how to budget.

You need to know how to do the basics." Or, "I'm just part of the band.

I'm not… I don't have to deal with the management and the cashflow of the

band, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I make my money, and that's my money, and I get to move on." A- and that's

fine, but you still need to know what to do with your money that you are making.

And even… There was a conversation I had a couple weeks ago about

The money… How did he put that?

Yeah.

I forgot.

I forgot how you said it

Hmm.

Anyway, I don't remember

I'll

Jason K Powers: a lot

yeah yeah but let me maybe this will trigger your memory I love like

one of my hobbies is to read like music bios of bands musicians that I admire

and like I've read a lot of them right One like one thing that's a common theme

even these legacy acts that we're used to like these big names right All of them

have these stories Oh they're young kids and they made it big then two three years

later they realize My God I need to learn the economics of this I've We've been

had by the manager by the touring people by the marketing people I mean all those

bands and musicians that never learnt and became economically literate are either

gone we don't even talk about them or even worse And you talk to these people

who are still around who've made it in the music industry if they had this huge

success that fell in their lap were lucky enough to two three years later realize

Like you know how many times Yngwie Malmsteen went bankrupt right I mean

because like Malmsteen the guitar player Yeah I mean he went bankrupt a couple of

times because he like he was it was in the golden days where money is flowing

like you spend like crazy And then one day when things fade and the the grunge

rock arrived in late 90s now you're 45 50 and they say You don't have any money in

your account Like oh really Like so even people like that who were totally skimmed

by the middleman to learn because suddenly you don't have anything Forget about the

Jason K Powers: Yep.

paying next month's heating bill buddy

Jason K Powers: Right.

Right.

So they

Jason K Powers: think there's good musicians and good… Yeah, there's good

musicians and good businessmen, and if you can find a balance of both learn to-

you don't learn that

Jason K Powers: Your

be had Yeah yeah if

Jason K Powers: music is a business.

Yeah

rent somebody's gonna take it from you It's not gonna

be yours That's the reality of the

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yep

All right.

Any closing economic thoughts

Not really it was my pleasure I guess It was fun

Jason K Powers: Yeah, yeah.

Any comments on, kind of the e-book and the idea behind the

Infinite Banking Concept and the viability of that for people

Yeah no I think like I said I think it's super valuable because

I think it's fundamentally in line and in sync with the music industry It's the

kind of income stream that you really need that's essential for a bi industry

that's cutthroat competitive where the returns are very risky uncertain and

they ebb and flow right And even in in when times turn great It's good to

be an optimistic person and everything but precaution always wins if you wanna

sustain yourself If you wanna be in this business in the next 10 15 years you're

starting now right it's really the key thing Like the first thing you need to

do very first thing you need to do is to secure the finances right you're lucky

enough to have a family that's gonna support you like Taylor wonderful and

you're talented and we see what that gets you But let's not forget that there was

a lot of investment behind that from the dad right essential That's im impossible

to get around so you need to secure that But once you do that you have some income

stream and you wanna be independent an artist that really speaks to the world

the way they want independently without the finances you're done So the kind of

thing that you promote this independent banking concept really is tailormade for

that independent finances for you to be a musician And we talked about like what it

takes right It's not like Oh I have this income and now make it earn money for me

Well there's a sacrifice behind it It's not like here's my extra money I made.

Let's go."

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Well, you

Jason K Powers: Yeah

to make deliberate choices early on.

They're gonna be tougher.

Like with everything else, you're gonna have to make the tougher

choices, tougher sacrifices early on so that you build that nest egg.

But if you do that when you're, like, in your mid to late 20s and early 30s,

maybe in your 50s, you now, like, you don't have to worry about anything else.

But that's what it takes, right?

It's always, again, sacrifice, determination focus, right?

All those things really factor

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

and it's becoming more and more important,

unfortunately, 'cause, again, like, there's no fat in this business.

It's all skim

Jason K Powers: Yeah

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think like one of the

things that stands out to me that I'm seeing more and more and more of, and

it breaks my heart every time is how many even successful or as we perceive

successful musicians, depending how you define successful, fine.

But I mean, musicians who are out there, they have made it and they've been around

and some crisis has come up and there's a GoFundMe page up all of a sudden,

and it breaks my heart every time.

I'm like, I, the, you know, it's just unfortunate that there's not more

knowledge out there in the industry, like standard this is what you have to

do also to buffer yourself so you don't ever have to set up a GoFundMe page,

and, you know, and run into situations like that or, or having to sell the

house all of a sudden, like you said.

You know, people have filed bankruptcy who were making really good money

before and just getting ahead of it, getting in front of it, making

smart choices up front if you can.

You can always correct the bend, that you're on.

You can make corrective decisions along the way.

But yeah, it's hard.

It's hard.

All right.

So let's pivot back to, and wrap this up to tell us how do we find you and

the band, and what do you got coming on down the line end of the summer into

the, throughout the rest of the year?

What kind of special things you have going on?

Well, yeah, we have a busy summer coming up, like you mentioned.

We're out this week, and officially the start of our summer is this week

where we're doing the outdoor shows.

Lots of cool stuff coming up in, in Colorado.

Redrockvixens.com is where all the information is.

And, our social media, they can find us on Facebook, on Instagram.

We have a pretty active and busy page where we keep everything up to date.

So come see us, and I think you'll see a unique band that's really doing this thing

Jason K Powers: Yep, yep.

And now we didn't really touch on it, but are you doing some solo stuff?

Yeah that's something that, I, again, you know my background is in

Turkey, so I took the band to Turkey last September, which was super cool.

As I get into my, semi-retirement years, I'm really trying to get something

going there because you'd be surprised.

It's a tourism country, so there's a especially in the tourist

areas, an incredible entertainment industry with its own challenges

and rewards and things like that.

So I'm trying to s- see if I can get something going there.

I'd like to, … I'm, a lot of the stuff I advocated with online music

production I'm leaning heavily into that.

But yeah, eventually I'll probably do some, like, original music

that I'll try to put out there.

Absolutely.

Just because it's fun.

Original m- you can't beat original music, right?

Because it's so really your opportunity to speak from your soul

Jason K Powers: That's right.

That's right.

All right, well, every episode we end with what we call final riffs, just

rapid-fire questions, rapid-fire answers.

You ready?

Absolutely.

Jason K Powers: All right.

I am

Jason K Powers: Um, maybe, yeah, maybe.

Depends on the question.

All right, most e- most embarrassing gig or performance fail

Oh, there's so many.

You have to have those to, have your metal.

many,

Jason K Powers: Yeah

remember.

Like blues jams are always like, you get out there, plug in, nothing works.

You got 20 minutes, right?

Or yeah, lots of them.

So many

Jason K Powers: figure it out.

if you could share the stage with anyone alive or gone, who would it be?

Alive, Brian May.

Gone, it's a toss-up between Gary Moore and Randy Rhoads

Jason K Powers: Okay.

There you go.

What's the first concert you ever went to?

Ooh

like international fame, of course, like in Turkey I was dabbling in the music

scene locally, so we had like brothers older than us four or five years.

We'd go see them, admire them, that kind of stuff.

Jason K Powers: Yep

when I was in Ohio attending Ohio State University in '86, Pat Benatar

Jason K Powers: Okay.

Yeah

Giraldo, who's like one of the most underrated

guitar players on the planet,

Jason K Powers: That's it.

her husband

Jason K Powers: Uh, I think I know the answer to this.

Who was your biggest musical influence growing up?

Oh yeah, Queen and Brian May, Freddie Mercury, they're just

Jason K Powers: There you go.

Yep.

And what's your go-to guilty pleasure song?

Ooh.

Jason K Powers: Got one?

Oh man, you know what?

I really don't have any… i'm so fickle with my musical tastes.

and again, that's my, where I grew up, my cultural background.

I'll hear this very arabesque Turkish music.

If it speaks to me, I love it.

I just I'm one of those that's obsessive listener.

Like, I just consume it, nonstop.

Listen to it for a week, then I'm done, move on to something else.

The good ones you always come back to,

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

but it will… Oh, yeah.

It is gonna be one of the deeper cuts in the Queen catalog.

Jason K Powers: There you go.

All right, last question: What is probably your favorite song to play on stage?

Favorite song to play on stage?

Of course, there are many, but I think as a band, like, we

really ace Somebody to Love.

Jason K Powers: Okay.

Yeah.

Jason K Powers: There you go.

Good, good.

All right, Murat, this has one of my favorite conversations on Backstage Money.

Not many people can walk into the room as both a working musician and

an economist, so you have that unique vantage point and actually have

something real to say about both sides.

So guys, go check out Red Rock Vixens.

They've got summer shows coming up all around Colorado.

Get on their mailing list.

We'll have all the links in the description of this episode.

And check it out.

So if today's conversation got you thinking differently about the

financial side of your music career, that's exactly why we're here.

Head on over to 1024wealth.com/music, grab the free guide, schedule the call with me.

Let's talk about building a system that actually works the way you

live and work in the music industry.

Murat, thank you so much for being on.

Appreciate having you

Jason, thanks so much.

It's been fun.

I really I'm honored to be on your podcast

Jason K Powers: Yep.

It's been fun.

I'm Jason K. Powers.

This is Backstage Money, where music and money collide.

We will see you next time