Boys' mental health and the evolving definition of masculinity take center stage in this enlightening conversation between Nkechi Nwafor-Robinson and Jonathan Reed.

The episode delves into the critical need for open discussions about boys' emotional well-being, emphasizing that empowering young men starts with fostering genuine connections and relationships. Jonathan shares his personal journey and the pivotal moments that inspired him to advocate for gender justice and redefine masculinity.

Throughout the dialogue, they explore the impact of societal norms and peer pressure on boys, particularly the challenges they face in expressing vulnerability.

Listeners are encouraged to take action by reaching out to the boys in their lives, highlighting that every individual has a role to play in nurturing the next generation's mental health and resilience.

Takeaways:

• Boys need supportive relationships to navigate their emotional challenges and redefine masculinity positively.
• Increased conversations about mental health among boys signify a shift towards vulnerability acceptance.
• The Bro Code often discourages boys from expressing vulnerability, which impacts their mental health.
• Building relationships with young boys is crucial for their emotional well-being and development.
• Online friendships can provide important support for boys, but they must be guided positively.
• It's essential for adults to actively reach out and connect with boys in their lives.

If this episode resonates with you, then remember... SUBSCRIBE • 5-Star Rate • COMMENT • SHARE this Podcast!! 💚❤️🙌🏾🙏🏾

Find Jonathan Online:

Website: https://jonathonreed.me/

Find us online: https://linktr.ee/nkechinwaforrobinson

Great day, amazing human.

Welcome to the Empowered in My Skin podcast where our mission is to help 1 billion people in this world think in more empowering ways.

Empowered humans empower humans.

So you are in the right spot to become a lead domino for empowerment today.

My name is Ingke Chi.

I'm not only your host, but I am a vibrant optimist, obsessive success to bring you empowering content with each episode, we will be bringing you content alternating between longer episodes with featured guests and shorter episodes called Empowering Bites, where I'll be joined by my co host, Gabby Mamone.

So if you're ready, let the show begin.

Yes.

Great day, amazing humans, and welcome to our first Movember episode on the Empowered My Skin podcast.

And so, as part of our special men's health series for Movember this year, our guest is someone whose work is making a powerful impact in the realm of gender justice, youth programming and redefining masculinity.

He is the driving force behind NextGen Men's efforts to support the wellbeing of boys and masculine identifying youth.

And by the way, that is actually what attract like we just saw NextGen and we were like, oh, what is this?

We double clicked.

And anyway, I continue.

His career began in education, but it didn't take long for him to discover his passion for helping young men thrive emotionally and challenge harmful gender norms.

His work bridges research, advocacy and direct action, including leading the innovative Rite of Passage expeditions project where he guides masculine identifying young men on transformative wilderness journeys across Ontario and the Rocky Mountains.

And then of course, outside of his professional life, he's got a life.

And he is an adventure enthusiast with a deep love for the outdoors, which aligns perfectly with his mission to help young men connected themselves, nature and their communities.

So we're really thrilled to have him on the show to discuss boys mental health, which is such an important and often, you know, neglected topic in my opinion.

The evolving definition of masculinity and how nature can play a role in healing.

And so I'm sure you're as excited as I am to welcome our next guest.

So please join me in a gigantic podcast welcome for Jonathan Reed.

Oh my goodness.

I now know why your code name is Empowered.

I just feel empowered.

Just like that.

Like holy.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I had to do it justice.

I had to do it justice.

I think the work that you do is, as we were saying in the B roll.

I think one of the things that really attracted me, and I may not get the quote completely right, because we didn't write it down.

I was listening to some of your episodes on your podcast, but it was the trailer.

I listened to the.

Why.

You know, because I think that's always important and I want to get.

I want to actually start there with you.

But you really talked about, you know, we have to start to talk about to boys when they're young, before they become violent men.

Right.

And so how about we start there?

Right?

What was Truly, what was the.

I think it was on the suicide of.

Was it a friend or was it someone that you were really close to?

But anyway, what got you started on this mission?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think first of all, like, the level of, like, research and attention, like, I really appreciate that because you're right.

Yeah.

That, like, there's different, I mean, with anybody, right.

From finding their passion.

And by the way, like, imagine finding your passion and getting paid to do it when you're like, oh, my, you know, goodness.

Anyway, so.

But there's lots of different origin points, but one for sure is, is my experience with, like, we could just call it gender based violence growing up.

So when I was in, like, middle school, I had long blonde hair and I was quite small.

And.

And I don't know if this is like a, you know, like an uncouth way to put it, but, like, I got called a fag before I even knew what that meant.

Like, that's how I found that one.

Right.

And.

And I got told every day, you know, you're a girl, you're gay, cut your hair.

And.

And for me, like, I had enough support, I guess, just from my family, really, because my teachers were completely.

At best, they were unprepared, if not just oblivious.

I was just gonna say, were they oblivious?

Okay.

I was hoping that was the way.

Yeah.

So there was very little support at school.

But my.

You know, and my.

Even my parents, like, at one point, I remember crying and they just sat on the bed with me, you know, and they're like, there's no solution to this.

But for whatever reason, I made it through.

And I ended up with defiance.

Right.

Rather than, like, internalizing some of that, like, that, like, hatred, you know, I ended up being like, the problem is not.

The problem is the, you know, is the, like, the harmful messages we get about who we can be and how we can express ourselves.

And so I made it through all of those experiences.

But when I was a little bit older as a teenager and starting to work like as a student teacher in the field of education and that kind of thing, I came across the story of a, of a 12 year old named.

And I still wrote this like 10 years later.

I still remember his name, Ronan Shimizu, who died at age 12.

He took his own life and, and he had been a, and a, he'd been a cheerleader and had been bullied relentlessly for it.

And the reason that, that, you know, that landed in, you know, in my heart and, and on my shoulders is because I had been a cheerleader and I had been bullied relentlessly for it and I had made it through that experience and he hadn't.

And, yeah, and, and, and, and you know, there's other small stories like that and that kind of thing, but that's the, that's part for sure of the catalyst to say.

And this is with all respects to teachers, I know that the intense and the important work that they do, but for me, like, I was like, my passion is not mathematics, my passion is not literacy.

I've got to, yeah, I've got to find ways to support boys through and also, and sort of more broadly challenge, you know, this system that we get told.

So let's get a little bit more into.

I love actually that you started off by saying, because I think that could have been a whole, that could be a whole other episode.

So there might be an invite back, but you know, finding being able to live in your purpose and then get paid for it is, it is truly like, it's just, it's like really, is that, is that my life?

Like, is that how awesome life could be?

But, but I digress.

So you dedicated your career to obviously exploring masculinity and gender injustice.

But we are seeing more conversations around mental health men becoming like actually openly saying that they're, they understand what vulnerability means.

And, and, and then a lot of the conversation around the pressures that has been, you know, that still there's still a traditional masculinity that exists in our culture.

And so, but what shifts have you noticed in the way boys and men today are redefining what it means to be masculine?

Wow, that is a huge question.

And I think the big one, like you said, is just increased conversation.

Whether it's like the aftermath of the hashtag me too movement or the increasing normalization of talking about mental health and destigmatizing these conversations and that kind of thing.

I think there is more conversation happening, unfortunately.

I also see within that conversation increased polarity, that there's, like, a bigger divide or disparity between the way some people are approaching those conversations and actually leads to, like, less, you know, thoughtful and nuanced and like, you know, and like, accessible dialogue.

But we're seeing that everywhere.

To be honest, when I thought of mental health, an interesting thing that I guess I.

This is what.

Because, like, again, it's such a huge question.

Like, what do I even say?

But this is something that's, like, a little bit more specific and definitely interesting.

And on my mind is, we just finished a report that we called Boys Will be Blank the Online Lives of Boys who are Embracing Positive Masculinity.

And so this was a piece of research that my colleague did in the.

In the, like, year or so as we came out of the pandemic.

And we did a survey and some qualitative interviews and then a focus group conversation with a group of.

Well, with.

With a.

With a population of.

Of adolescent boys.

And one of the things that we found was this disparity between their beliefs and their behav.

Behavior, specifically online and behavior and experiences online.

But so, for example, with mental health, we found it was something like, I think 7% of the respondents said, I agree that boys and men should not ask for help with personal problems.

So we have this, like, huge amount of, like, boys and young men who have.

Who've been able to say, like, within the context of the survey, I should be able to ask for help.

So that was 7% that said, I shouldn't.

So.

Wow.

So it's like, that's great, right?

So many boys are like, it's this.

We should be able to ask for help.

Yeah, yeah.

But then what we also saw is.

And by the way, these boys know what, personally, like, they also talked about, like, I have felt overwhelmed.

I felt not myself.

I felt stressed.

Like, I felt that on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, it was like 93%.

So they're connected to.

They under.

They connected to their feelings.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

But we also saw that, I think it was 16% of the.

Of the youth in the survey had actually asked for help in the last month.

Or maybe, again, I'm getting the numbers, like, slightly wrong.

Maybe it was 27%, something like that, but it was like a much smaller, you know, per, like, percentage that you would think who had actually gone ahead and asked for help.

And it was something like 30% said I have never once asked for help.

And then it was 68% who said I mostly rely on myself.

And so again there was this like kind of disparity that like we are talking about it more and boys beliefs are changing but it's, it doesn't seem to be enough to just believe something.

You still need like the skills and you need the connections and like the practice in order to kind of make shifts.

And I think that's the case for whether it's for mental health, for anti bullying, for bias bystander intervention, like all that.

And so, and what do you, you know, just to double click on that, do you have any thoughts around what you think might be sort of that I'm going to say the barrier, for the lack of a better word, find it right now because there is so much online and these days you start even enjoy the power of generous AI, you can, you know, you can synthesize large, large amounts of data to help you.

And there is a lot more talks, I see a lot more men on, on our social platforms sort of leaning in on this.

So what do you think is maybe the barrier to actually then going from belief to action?

That's a really thoughtful question and I appreciate you thinking about it.

I, I think where my mind goes is like the question is then who?

Like I know I'm supposed to be able to ask for help but like who on earth, right?

Like my, like, you know, my parents don't understand, my teachers have got their hands full.

I don't want to be a burden on my peers.

And so there's just this question of like who is that person in my life that I can turn to with these kinds of things?

And there was a quote in one of the, again in this research piece that we did, one of the kids said, you know, I, I knew that my people would have my back, but he said like somehow I still felt like they wouldn't.

And so there was this like feeling of like, you know, how do I start that conversation?

And the big one was like who do I start that with?

And so I think that's why I think like as much as like we can be like promoting and representing and like all that kind of thing.

Like what it really comes down to is like when did you last reach out to a kid, you know?

Yeah.

Or a young man on your own?

Right?

Yeah.

Someone that you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

I like that because that's a.

For anyone that's listening that wants to know how they can lean in that's, that's a good way.

So again, I'm not part of the questions I had, but just, just loving where this dialogue is.

So there was an episode that I didn't even get to take in.

It was called Bro Code versus Boycotte.

And it was interesting, it was an interesting title.

So.

Yeah.

But I'm wondering if, because I, for me, I thought about the Bro code, right?

Like my husband sitting with his brethren and if I, if I'm like a fly on the wall, which often I am kind of sitting somewhere, they're not talking about their mental health, they're not talking about their inner feelings.

They're not talking about like, you know, sort of the challenges or the things that they're trying to still figure out in life.

Is that, is that what the Bro Code is like versus Boycott?

Or can you.

Yeah, that was such a cool conversation.

And that's like the, that's the, that's the exciting or valuable part of like talking with boys themselves.

Like they are so articulate and thoughtful and like it's just their lived experience.

Right?

So an example of this like disparity was, was a conversation with a 12 year old who had made this group of friends and they were fun.

Like they like, they, they like prank called people.

They like played basketball, went skateboarding and like played PlayStation.

Like they were a really great group of friends.

And so he's in a grade seven or something like that.

And they were also just like edging like a little bit towards violence and like they would have beef with other kids at school and like in that part of the city, like that beef was like, like let's throw hands kind of situation.

And so he was in and it kind of like this the kind of thing where like it go like it like it happens and it happens again and then it like someone snitches and it happens and it happens again.

Like it just like it continues and that kind of thing.

So it was getting worse, not better.

And so this, he was 11 at the time.

He ended up in a situation where he's like, this fight is no longer a fight.

Like he didn't have the words for it, but he's like this is like in his, like in his feeling.

He's like, this is like this is.

Someone is going to get way too badly hurt.

Like this is like assault level.

Like he's like, like put the brakes on.

Like, I don't want to be part of this and I don't want like first of all, I don't want to Hurt somebody.

I don't want you guys to get in trouble.

And like, so he has all these alarm bells going off in his head.

And the bro code would be like, you're loyal to your boys.

And so, and he would have hoped that like, if he spoke up, they'd be like, we're here with you.

Like, will, like, will like follow you, take care of you.

Like, there's this like, yeah, there's like loyalty and like attention that's present.

And so he said, he tried to say, guys, guys, guys, like, chill out, chill out.

And he was so like emotionally heightened.

He was like in tears.

And instead of like allowing him space and like being loyal, which again, these boys would kind of describe as that bro code, they laughed at him and they said like, come on, don't be a pussy.

And that to me is like, is the boy code is like, rather than being loyal to you, we're going to be loyal to the tenets of the culture that's expected of us and we're not allowing space for vulnerability or tears.

So he got called a pussy instead of them having his back.

And that was for him, like, that was like a transformative and kind of heartbreaking moment.

Yeah.

So that's funny because, yeah, that gave.

Me just like, it's just one of those things where it took just one more person from that group totally, potentially.

Right, like, and wow, that was good.

So thank you, thank you for.

Thank you for.

I'm probably going to go back and listen to that episode all the same.

But that was, that's actually really, really important.

And it's, it's funny because it's, it's that whole peer pressure, it's that whole the ability to not to want to stand out and not necessarily and when, when to do that.

So.

Wow, I can go so many different areas, but in the interest of like wanting to just pick your brain on a couple bit more anxiety, depression, huge topics coming out of, you know, Covid.

And I still think it is as I, you know, we continue to talk about this whole thing, return to work.

So it is something that it, you know, is spoken a lot about work, about how much anxiety people carry with even just thinking about that.

But next gen men, what, you know, outside of you talked about opening up the conversation, getting people to talk.

What are some other strategies that you're offering up to help, you know, sort of boys deal with like their emotional and mental well being.

One of the things that comes to mind for me is the like the art of entry points.

And again, it like, like often, for example, in the nonprofit sector, people talk about like meeting people where they are and that's like a bit of like a non sequitur.

And like some people do it and some people don't and some people just talk about it and that kind of thing.

And, and I think that that's like one of the most important things that we can do with regard to like anxiety, depression and like.

Yeah.

And these kinds of conversations, particularly with boys and young men.

And so for example, sorry, is meeting.

People where there are, but actually figuring.

Out how to do that artfully and not just say you're doing it.

And there's all kinds of pieces to that.

And like, could be physical space.

Right.

And so like, for example, like, like my colleagues have had like really powerful, deep conversations while video gaming with like teenage boys and that kind of thing.

A story that I sometimes tell is this is going back a few years.

I used to, like, we used to have grant funding to do after school programs.

And so the session with these grade 7 and 8 boys is like theoretically about mental health.

The way the conversation would start was actually about the NBA because at least in this part of Toronto at this time, every single 12 and 13 year old boy knew the ins and outs of basketball.

I won't tell you the whole story, but essentially there was like drama.

LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers, and they got swept in the series.

And then afterwards LeBron James said he played the whole thing with a broken hand and there's this whole thing with Golden State warriors and all that kind of thing.

And I vaguely knew what was going on, but these like 13 year old boys gave me like play by play exactly what had happened.

And we would watch like a highlight reel and the question for these boys would be, um, okay, look, if you're a professional athlete and you've got an injury like that, what are some of the reasons you keep it to yourself?

Because LeBron James didn't tell anybody and they would say, oh, you know, I don't want to let my teammates down.

I don't want to, I don't want to be a burden.

I don't want to be the center of attention.

I don't want to be taken advantage of.

Like there's these different reasons.

And that's where the conversation would then shift to.

If you're a boy or a young man struggling with stress or, you know, or mental health, what are some of the reasons you Might keep that to yourself.

And it's really, really similar.

Like, I don't want to, I don't want to let my friends down.

I don't want to be a burden.

I don't want to be taken advantage of.

Like, those are really, really similar reasons.

And that's how we would enter the conversation.

And we were sort of the way, I guess I imagine it is starting in really familiar territory.

It's very comfortable to talk about basketball.

We can all do that and then walk together into the more familiar, like, unfamiliar landscape of, of mental health and wellbeing.

So that's definitely a strategy that comes to mind for me is like, let's not just like drop this on, you know, on people who are.

It's almost not about normalizing it.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, but figuring out like, how do, like, how do I effectively.

Yeah, like, make it comfortable.

Make it, make it, make it comfortable.

Connect the dots.

I, I do believe, like, there's something that I always say how you do anything is how you do everything.

And I think that that's just, that's very intersectional across a lot of things.

Right.

Like, and I love that analogy.

Right.

It is the same, like, like the same reasons you would hide, I don't know, you know, a new offer that you bought from your husband, quote, unquote.

That might be my story.

Might be the same reason I would hide something that's a little bit more personal.

Like, you know, right now I'm, I'm challenged with a lot of like, body and people see me as this really, really strong human and, and I don't want to be seen to be weak or I don't want, you know, people to be in, oh, she didn't show up because of, you know, so I get that.

Yeah, yeah.

So digital era.

Woo.

Helping or harming?

Wow.

I, and it could be two spectrums.

Helping how?

Harming how?

Yeah, yeah, I find, I find a lot of people are wringing their hands these days about extremism, particularly boys and young, young men online.

You know, everybody's heard of Andrew Tate and, and other anti feminist influencers.

You could talk about Miles Gaines, David Goggins, like they're, they're leveraging, you know, a particular like, representation of masculinity and sort of packaging and selling it to boys.

And there's obviously validity to that.

But I think missed when we're talking just about like, you know, like extremist, like subreddits or like video game and screen time.

Like, I think what we're missing is that like what drives most people's experiences online and especially boys and teenagers is connection.

Like that's what they're looking for is connection.

And like I've seen firsthand like boys friendships online be like really, really, really important protective factors for their well being.

So obviously it's both and, and like the like what makes the difference is, is the like the how really?

I guess or the where and in the who, you know, so.

But yeah, no, it's, it's like not going away and like with, yeah with like people again like kind of wringing their hands about like boys well being and like suicides and that kind of thing.

Like one of the big like and also for gender based violence and like, like pro feminism and that kind of thing.

Like one of the biggest under like recognized contexts to do that work is online.

And I think it's important that whether it's, whether it's parents, teachers, nonprofit organizations that like we need to be thinking about how do we like build structures online that are supporting and promoting boys wellbeing in positive development.

Yeah.

And just a question for you just because of, I don't know why this sort of came to mind when you were just sitting there is have you done research across like the various generations and because I'm going to, I'm going to go out on the limb here that you are probably in the millennial.

I'm, I'm ageless.

I just turned 30 yesterday actually.

Okay.

Yeah, so you are.

I'm, I got a couple, I got a couple of decades on you.

So have you done any research over the cross of the generations?

Like are what is sort of what you are seeing now is say the next gen that's coming up.

Is it, are there similarities to maybe you know, folks in my generation that might have been seeing that I'm baby boomer.

Oh no, I'm not baby boomer.

I'm.

Deny, deny.

Yeah, I'm going to, I'm, I don't know if I'm ready to say I'm in my 30s.

I.

Yeah, it's like, it's a growing sensuality in young people's lives.

And like Gen Z, you know, talks a lot more about video gaming than you know, the previous generations and that kind of thing.

I think one of the like the most helpful ways that I saw it in research was someone pointed out that for our older generations we often like the way we experienced social media was, was this like bifurcation of you have your offline life and your online life and for example your social media Might be photos of your like your offline life or like organizing for get togethers of your offline life.

Like it was, it was like there's this space and that space and I'm taking pictures of this one and putting it on that one, if that makes sense.

I've never really explained that out loud, so I don't know if that totally, totally made sense.

But I think what we see now is like a much more intertwined experience that like your online and offline identity and relationships are a lot less like, you know, separable.

And, and that's for sure the case.

And so for example, with schools that are like totally unprepared, that is actually really.

That was very poignant by way.

Yeah, yeah.

And so like schools are unprepared to figure out what to do.

Like if cyber bullying is happening off school grounds but on like within kids online experiences, cyberbullying, like gender based violence, like anything like that.

Like schools are like, I don't know what to do because it didn't happen at school.

But for these kids, like it is like it's completely part of their life.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's the big, I think that's the big shift that you know, we could point to generally generationally.

And is that something that you feel that school systems need to, need to like?

It's obviously I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

So do school systems need to lean on that more?

I've never actually heard that expressed before and figured out.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean the problem, the problem is that like everybody who's taking care of kids is constantly playing catch up, like trying to like we have like these phone bans happening and like there's like anti social media legislation happening and like, and, and all these adults are desperately trying to figure out what to do.

I don't think like anything, like, I don't think anything protective can happen at the like structural level so much as the relational level.

Because we'll never catch up to the way that whether it's video game companies, social media platforms, like artificial intelligence that are like scary, isn't it?

You know?

Yeah.

And we can't keep up with that because like we're, we're, we're thoughtful, slow.

Yeah, I know.

No, but it's, it's actually quite scary because I think the, especially the technology advances aren't slowing down.

They're getting so much faster and the adoption rate, especially in the youth is way more advanced than it is with some of the older folks.

I'm in technology myself, so.

But even at that I would say that there's some young people that are running circles around me and I'm in, I'm in, I'm, I work in the technology space.

Right?

So, so like my thought is always like your own, like if you have the choice between trying to like really master or deeply understand the technology or to like master the art of relationship building and really deeply understand your relationship with a young person, just like build relationship because they'll tell you right what's going on and that's really where our time is really well spent.

So for example, this is maybe moving a little bit past mental health and well being, but it certainly impacts mental health and wellbeing.

There's a huge crisis of financial sextortion, particularly of teenage boys.

It's like 90% to 90.

Like even one study was like 98% of victims of financial sex tortion, which is like basically like sexting and then blackmailing.

The victims are predominantly young boys and young men.

And I had.

And so, and so where your head might go is like, and it's mostly.

Men doing this to men or.

Yeah, yeah it is, yeah.

And it's predominantly male.

Men continue to be the primary perpetrators of violence unfortunately.

And I apologize for laughing about that.

But yeah, that's totally, totally reality.

And anyway, so where your head might go is we need to, we need to like, like control these technologies or we need to like educate these youth about, you know, that kind of thing.

And I think, and I think that just like it has to be relationships.

So I said like for example, a week or two ago I had happened to have a catch up conversation with a, a ninth grader and he said, and you know, how's, how are things going?

And he said I'm super excited.

I like, I met this girl like, like super coffee, like I caught feelings like she's the one, you know, all that kind of thing.

And I found out that he met her on TikTok.

And, and so, and so for me, like knowing what I know about the bells went off.

So.

And I said can I just like, so I'm like super excited for you.

Can I just tell you something?

And you know, we talked a little bit about like what financial sexortion is and like what warning signs there might be.

And I said like, I really hope for you she's totally normal.

And like you're like, Jonathan, that was a really weird conversation that was totally irrelevant to this content.

But I was like, it's just important for you to know.

Right.

None of that would have happened if I hadn't just asked, how are you doing?

And he wouldn't have also answered if I hadn't put in the work to build that relationship.

I think that's the only thing really, that we've got going for us, is that we hold.

And that kind of goes back to.

I guess an answer that you were providing earlier is just really.

It's about asking about almost offering up some type of level of mentorship through creating, but through meaningful connection.

So.

So as a parting message, you know, you have the microphone, and I'm going to use that.

There's.

I can't remember what podcaster says this, but this one comes to mind.

I think it's a great one for you just because of the.

I find you're.

You're just brilliant with your answers.

And this is it.

This is the last message for all the mission.

I know at 30, it's hard to believe that that's possible, but just imagine, just play with me for a bit.

And for all the mission work that you've done, you have one last message that you can sort of leave on this topic of, you know, redefining masculinity, really helping boys thrive in world.

What would it be?

I guess I would say, like, anybody listening to this, this is your job.

And it's not.

Like, it's not the job of two podcasters chatting.

It's not the job of, you know, an educator, a researcher, a writer, a politician.

It is the job of every single person who has a boy in their lives, which is everybody, whether you're a teacher or literally, whether it's your neph or the kid on your street.

Like, it is your job to be building relationships with him to.

Or with them, to be checking on them, to be supporting their development into, you know, the best young men that can.

They can be.

It's.

Yeah, it's.

I mean, it, like, it's.

There's no solution out there waiting to be found.

This is like the only thing.

Like, again, the only thing we have is our relationships, and that means it's yours.

You know, it's your mission, it's your solution.

And so, yeah, I mean, if there's.

If there's, like, one last message, it would be like, okay, you know, the podcast ends, press pause, right?

And send somebody a text or call them on the phone and.

And just, you know, and just.

Just make some time for that.

And, you know, today, tomorrow, this week, this month, I love that.

It's everybody's job.

It's everybody's job.

No one's left out of this equation of making this work.

I love it.

So where do we find more of you?

First of all, I, anyway, where do we find more of you?

Because I'm, I, I think your podcast is one that needs to, to be shared a lot more broadly.

So I'm going to help with that.

But yeah, yeah.

So, well, I'll just digress and say the, the podcast is like been on like, it's been on several hiatuses.

As I learned firsthand, a podcast is a really hard thing to do as a side project.

And, and anyway, so I'm, I'm, I'm building some like, resilience and also like, like dialing, like just dialing it into like the core of what matters, which is conversations with boys.

So it will hopefully be around with more regularity and more sustainability in the future.

It's called Breaking the boy Code and it's really about like, let's get boys voices in the room about, you know, about their own experiences, about their own well being and about their involvement in gender justice.

And so that's breakingtheboycode.com or@boy Podcast on social media.

And kind of like I said at the start, like, I'm just so privileged.

This is my day job and that's with an organization called NextGen Men.

And you can find NextGenMen at NextGenMan CA or NextGenMen on social media.

Wow.

Well, thank you so much, Jonathan.

I truly do.

I love this work.

As I kind of said in the B roll at the beginning, I have, it's our third season of doing a men's health series.

During the podcast, we have never actually focused on sort of the work from the aspect that you're tackling it from.

And I do, I think it's really needed, happy to be able to amplify the voice of the work that you're doing.

So thank you so much.

And listeners, I'm sure you've enjoyed this.

Please, as he said, take a pause and think about what's, who's that boy that you can actually just send a text to?

I'm going to say a phone call because I'm like texting, I'm like, just pick up the phone, call somebody right now and shock, shock them by just saying hey, thinking about you and just want to know how you are in this moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So thank you, Jonathan.

Keep doing the work.

And to everyone that's listening, this is sadly where I have to say we're out.

Bye.

Yay.

There you have it.

I trust you are feeling more empowered in your skin.

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Maya Angelou said, when you get, you give.

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