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197. Eric Lay, Elventus Esports Coaching, League Of Legends, Mental Health
Episode 1973rd March 2022 • Business of Esports • Paul Dawalibi
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In this episode, with special guest Eric Lay (Founder & CEO of Elventus), we discuss how Eric became a professional League of Legends player, Eric's transition from a pro gamer to an esports coach, video game coaching at the highest level, the role mental health plays in gaming, and so much more!

Transcripts

Announcer:

Welcome to the business of esports podcast, the official podcast of esports. We

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explore the intersection of business and esports, one of the fastest growing industries in the world

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and the future. Have fun. Please welcome your host Paul esports. Prophet Dawalibi. The business of

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esports podcast begins now.

Paul Dawalibi:

From the keyboard to the boardroom. This is the business of esports podcast. I am Paul

Paul Dawalibi:

Dawalibi. I'm joined today by my friend and co host, Jimmy the judge burrata. For those of you

Paul Dawalibi:

who are new here, welcome to the official podcast of esports. What we do is we cover the most

Paul Dawalibi:

pressing, gaming and esports topics news of the week, but we look at all of it through a business

Paul Dawalibi:

and C suite lens, we dissect, we analyze the business implications of everything happening in

Paul Dawalibi:

this industry. For our regular listeners. Thank you guys for tuning in every week. Thank you for

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all the love the support. Thank you for leaving those five star ratings and reviews. If you

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haven't yet, do me a couple of favors. Go subscribe to the podcast, make sure you get

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notified when those new episodes come out. And leave a review. So if you're listening to it on

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Spotify, or Apple podcasts or Google Play or wherever you get this make sure you leave that

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review it helps others to find the podcast. Jimmy How you doing this week?

Jimmy Baratta:

Having a great week Paul, how's it going listeners welcome back to another another

Jimmy Baratta:

great episode happy to happy to be here.

Paul Dawalibi:

You know, my tan is fading Jimmy, I'm starting to become somewhat self conscious of

Paul Dawalibi:

this. This is this is a bad this is bad news. And you having golf clubs in the background is not

Paul Dawalibi:

exactly helping. This is not. But if you

Unknown:

take a closer look at the clubs, half of those are actually lightsaber hilts or whatever,

Unknown:

that's

Paul Dawalibi:

very serious golfing happening.

Jimmy Baratta:

But we can always we can always spend a day on the course I think maybe even do a

Jimmy Baratta:

recording from the clubhouse that would be as fun as recording at PAX or DreamHack or, or any of the

Jimmy Baratta:

other amazing venues that we're planning on hitting up.

Paul Dawalibi:

You know, a friend of mine used to do this thing called geeks on a plane and where

Paul Dawalibi:

he'd get a bunch of startup founders. And they'd all get on a plane and go to some city that was

Paul Dawalibi:

mostly fun, but also like to visit the startup ecosystem in that city. And I feel like we need to

Paul Dawalibi:

do something similar and gaming, like gamers on the golf course. Or like I like the alliteration,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know. I don't know there's something

Jimmy Baratta:

like it's kind of like Jerry Seinfeld's comedians, coffee, right. So he's on a

Jimmy Baratta:

plane Snakes on a Plane, I get that. But yeah, the alliteration is is really, I don't know, a lot of

Jimmy Baratta:

G activities, I'd probably have to put,

Paul Dawalibi:

yeah, we'd have to find by me why.

Jimmy Baratta:

It's a winner. So you heard it here first, you know, get get ready.

Paul Dawalibi:

heard it here first. And then it's gonna I need to get the 10 back, I need to get

Paul Dawalibi:

back to Florida thing.

Jimmy Baratta:

And speaking of new content, by the way, you know, because I have so many meetings, so

Jimmy Baratta:

many calls with great people. And they always are asking what's going on with William the professor.

Jimmy Baratta:

You know, we love him. We want to hear more of him. I don't let me take that that went out of

Jimmy Baratta:

your sails. Paul, if you want to announce that no, go ahead, please. So office hours with the

Jimmy Baratta:

professor is one of our new programs, it stars William the professor Collis it's the same insight

Jimmy Baratta:

and analysis that you've heard from him on our business of esports programming, but in a more

Jimmy Baratta:

snackable form, and in a more in depth coverage of specific events. So instead of a little bit of

Jimmy Baratta:

William here and there across a whole myriad of issues, it's it's truly as informative, it's

Jimmy Baratta:

great. If you get a chance watch it, because Big shout out to our editor, Chris, on that one who I

Jimmy Baratta:

think just made it look amazing. But but the audio is, well, we'll be on our business of esports

Jimmy Baratta:

feed. And so for William fans, you'll be happy to hear that we were doing some cool things around

Jimmy Baratta:

that brand.

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah, even more reason to subscribe to the business of esports. Like if you're already

Paul Dawalibi:

getting business of esports content, you're gonna get the office hours episodes for free, right?

Paul Dawalibi:

It's more more content every week. And the beauty of those episodes, I think you hit the nail on the

Paul Dawalibi:

head with it. Jimmy as you know, William gets to do a deep dive on on on an issue. And and you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, there's no one smarter in the sports space than William is. And so, like when he does a deep

Paul Dawalibi:

dive on something, I think it's really, really quite interesting, quite captivating. And there's

Paul Dawalibi:

a lot to learn, which is why we call it office hours with the professor right? It's like going

Paul Dawalibi:

like you weren't back in college, you're going to your professors office hours because you want to

Paul Dawalibi:

get that one on one and that in depth kind of insight that only you get in office hours and not

Paul Dawalibi:

in sort of the general classroom. So I hope everyone enjoys it. You know, Williams done a

Paul Dawalibi:

great job. There's two episodes out already that you guys can check out. And it should be fun that

Paul Dawalibi:

you expect Office Hours episodes every single week. Jimmy The other thing I just want to mention

Paul Dawalibi:

And before I introduce our guest this week, because we do have an amazing guest this week.

Paul Dawalibi:

Last week, guys, there's there was we had two podcast episodes that came out, that won't

Paul Dawalibi:

necessarily be a regular occurrence. But sometimes we just, you know, we're in fact, we have, you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, six months of guests booked in advance. And so every so often that happens where you might get

Paul Dawalibi:

a couple of extra episodes or an extra episode on a given week. We hope you guys appreciate and

Paul Dawalibi:

enjoy that. But make sure to still come to our Wednesday night live streams. It's Wednesday

Paul Dawalibi:

8:30pm. Eastern time. It's a bigger cast. It's me and Jimmy and Jeff, the juice and Lindsey, the

Paul Dawalibi:

boss. And we tackle all the news of the week that we don't cover on the podcast, necessarily. And we

Paul Dawalibi:

do it live. So you get to show up and ask questions and get in our faces. It's Wednesday,

Paul Dawalibi:

Wednesdays 8:30pm. Eastern time. It's so much fun, highly, highly recommend you guys checking it out.

Paul Dawalibi:

Jimmy, I don't want to waste any more time. We have an absolutely amazing guest this week. On the

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast this week, we have Eric lay, who's the CEO of L Ventus. And he's going to tell us about this.

Paul Dawalibi:

Eric, welcome to the business of esports podcast.

Unknown:

Yeah, glad to be here.

Paul Dawalibi:

Eric, for our viewers who maybe don't know much about you or about elementis we'd

Paul Dawalibi:

love a bit of your background like how you got into gaming, why you did what you guys are focused

Paul Dawalibi:

on at all Ventus like what what do you spend your time working on there? What are you guys doing

Paul Dawalibi:

would love a bit of the story?

Unknown:

Yeah, I guess we can start off with like my early days of gaming. So I've been a gamer for

Unknown:

basically my whole life grew up playing video games. It started off as a way for me to connect

Unknown:

with friends, they got me into it, um, and then eventually got really hooked into it. I had a lot

Unknown:

of like, issues I was dealing with that home anxiety, some like mental health issues and

Unknown:

started spiraling into some like unhealthy places and video games ended up being that safe space.

Unknown:

For me, it was a place where I could feel like I have friends here. The work I put in the video

Unknown:

game, I can see the progress were in life, I felt like I was trying hard to make him make meaning of

Unknown:

my own life. And I couldn't see any progress. So I just dove deeper and deeper into the video game

Unknown:

ecosystem. And you know, that might sound good at first, you know, you're using video games to find

Unknown:

some meaning in life. But I started using it as sort of like as an unhealthy escape mechanism. I

Unknown:

started you know, avoiding a lot of in real life issues I had got to a point where I ran away from

Unknown:

home. And you know, I would stay overnight at internet cafes and I was like playing non stop. At

Unknown:

that time was really addicted to League of Legends. I was hard stuck gold player. And I had

Unknown:

this dream where it's like, you know, I hate school. I hate my parents hate life. Like, I'm

Unknown:

gonna be this competitive video game player. Back in the early days of season two, three league of

Unknown:

legends, I saw these big Twitch streamers starting to pop out like Doublelift and stuff. The odd one

Unknown:

and stuff like that was like, you know, maybe I could be like that. Now at the time, I wasn't very

Unknown:

good at video games. But now I finally found some of those passionate about so I started playing

Unknown:

more and more video games. Not my parents obviously were not very happy with that they owe

Unknown:

me to go do well in school. But I just fell in love with the game. And as I dove deeper and

Unknown:

deeper, I realized like, I'm like, I'm not even that good. I'm like spending like, you know, eight

Unknown:

hours a day playing video games, skipping classes and not doing any homework. And I'm still hard

Unknown:

stuck good. Like, why is this the case? That's where I started. You know, diving deep into the

Unknown:

world of sports psychology and mental performance. I started studying the most successful athletes

Unknown:

entrepreneurs, trying to reverse engineer their mindset, like why are they the best at what they

Unknown:

do? What am I doing wrong? I'm spending so much time playing video games, yet I can't find a way

Unknown:

to turn it into something meaningful. And that's where you know, I started reading all these books

Unknown:

and I started you know, looking for mentors and advice. And I started practicing everything I was

Unknown:

learning into my video game career, if you can call it that. So as I started playing a lot of

Unknown:

these mental performance principles as I started learning about growth mindset started learning how

Unknown:

to practice like mental resilience, strengthen my work ethic and get my sleep schedule figured I

Unknown:

started like meditating daily, I started like reading my journal started like bought reviewing

Unknown:

my games rather than just playing to play and just going in that infinite loss streak or infinite 50%

Unknown:

win rate that everyone dread. So as I dove deeper into there, I started seeing some success. I got

Unknown:

to a point where eventually I was like top 50 ranked and top 50 ranked in North America for

Unknown:

League of Legends in a challenger player for over five years. Now. I never ended up going

Unknown:

professional I like scrim with some pro teams and stuff like that. So now even though I had this big

Unknown:

dream of trying to go pro, I still was able to you know find success in other ways and I started to

Unknown:

realize that I had this knack for coaching people. I started taking on some different side gigs I had

Unknown:

like background with traditional sports as well because I was a competitive athlete in high school

Unknown:

so it was natural that as I would you know I did some coaching with like running and like soccer. I

Unknown:

started playing this principle. So the way I started Coaching League and applying all the

Unknown:

sports psychology principles I was learning into coaching League and then I started having a lot of

Unknown:

success as a freelance coach. Fast forward a few years, I got to a point where I was arguably like

Unknown:

probably like the number one ranked coach in North America and Europe in terms of like how many

Unknown:

bookings and how much money I was making got to a point where I was making well over, you know, five

Unknown:

figures a month USD, which might not seem like crazy amount in like the world of business or even

Unknown:

the world esports right now, but at that time, I knew like the market, most people were making,

Unknown:

like struggling to even make a few $1,000 A month coaching, because the supply and demand just

Unknown:

wasn't there. And the way I was able to get there was I started learning law about like business I

Unknown:

started learning about, I had to, like scale out my coaching business. And from that, I started

Unknown:

turning that success as like a freelance eastwards coach to building fantasy now, that sort of like,

Unknown:

bring things full circle in the I had a few years. So I tried a few other like business projects.

Unknown:

Some of them worked better, worked out better than others. But I found myself coming back to all

Unknown:

Ventus because I knew I really wanted to build a business that can really help other people and do

Unknown:

something that I was really passionate about. And that's how I started like Atlantis. Yeah.

Paul Dawalibi:

Eric, I love the story. And, you know, I have I have some obvious questions that

Paul Dawalibi:

aren't let me get the non business questions out of the way that I'm just talking about pure

Paul Dawalibi:

curiosity. First of all, why l Ventus? Like, why the name?

Unknown:

Yeah, so. So the way I got it was, as I was, like, thinking about this for a few months,

Unknown:

like I was trying to figure out a name for the company. And I found a sum upon the Roman god of

Unknown:

success, I think it's like bond eventus. So, and then I sort of took el el my initials, and I just

Unknown:

combined, el Ventus. And it sort of just flowed nicely as like, it sounds nice. It sounds

Unknown:

professional, because in like the gaming space, there's like law of like, black market businesses

Unknown:

and the coaching and it gets title boosting. And I want to make sure that the branding sounded very

Unknown:

professional, more like a consulting agency more like thumbtack, and like professional players like

Unknown:

academies, colleges, parents would be interested in supporting, I didn't want to go down a

Unknown:

stereotypical, like, Dragon coaching, like this, that you see with like, old school gaming audience

Unknown:

that the the stereotypical gaming audience I, you know, parents or institutions might not be as

Unknown:

supportive of.

Paul Dawalibi:

And then the second fun question I have before I do business questions, why why did

Paul Dawalibi:

you decide to not go pro? Like, why gets so close to that goal? And then not, you know, not push

Paul Dawalibi:

that last? That last mile?

Unknown:

I get this question all the time. I think I think I got more mature. What that means is

Unknown:

like, people don't understand how insanely hard it is to become a professional gamer. I was playing

Unknown:

16 hours a day before. And now when I was operating on my performance, I was probably

Unknown:

practicing around eight, because I learned more about like balancing it like sleep and all that,

Unknown:

but it's insanely hard. And there are people who get to challenger, without even needing to do any

Unknown:

training that I did. Like the amount I trained, like, I can tell you, I worked harder than anyone

Unknown:

like out there at that time. Like no one was writing, you know, our spending like three, four

Unknown:

or five hours a day, watching VODs and writing essays of notes and reviewing it again, again,

Unknown:

like I was grinding my ass off, just to get to like challenger, where I see other people, they're

Unknown:

like 15 years old, and they're like, top 50 ranked, and all they do is play solo Q. And that

Unknown:

was just crazy to me. And I think that was like a big wake up call. I'm like, Yeah, Eric, you want

Unknown:

to go pro? Like, yes, you've accomplished a lot. But you have to work like 10 times as hard, why

Unknown:

not do something where you can put that same effort and have way more success. And I mean, I

Unknown:

was studying a lot of entrepreneurs. And I was like, what if I put that same effort into

Unknown:

business, like maybe I could, you know, build something much bigger and have something that's

Unknown:

way more impactful, or even coaching before I got more exposed into business I was like, and I

Unknown:

didn't have to put the same amount of effort I was putting into my professional career into coaching.

Unknown:

And all of a sudden, I'm like, one of the best in the world at this. And I'm like this is probably

Unknown:

the better career paths. So I tried like, you know, five different side hustles like businesses

Unknown:

and stuff. And I was doing everything at the same time while balancing a part time job because my

Unknown:

parents weren't very supportive of my video game career. So I was trying everything trying to find

Unknown:

a way to make it work. And the video game coaching, end up being the one thing that was

Unknown:

actually like, really successful. So for me, it's like I diversified my portfolio skills. And it was

Unknown:

very clear which one was working the most. And that's where I just invested more into it.

Paul Dawalibi:

It's a tremendous amount of self awareness, which I congratulate you for I think, I

Paul Dawalibi:

think there's like I know, we have lots of listeners who could learn just from that little

Paul Dawalibi:

tidbit there. You know, I know a lot of gamers who put in 16 hours a day and don't understand that if

Paul Dawalibi:

they just Put them into a business or something, the amount of success or the amount they could

Paul Dawalibi:

change their lives is pretty dramatic. Let's pivot to the business here a little bit in terms of

Paul Dawalibi:

events, you know, we've had, we've talked to other college coaching platforms, you know, we hear a

Paul Dawalibi:

lot about them. There are, you know, I don't know the exact number, there's probably a few dozen

Paul Dawalibi:

sort of, at least good options out there or decent businesses out there around coaching. I, you know,

Paul Dawalibi:

when I look on events website, I noticed you guys position yourselves quite differently, right,

Paul Dawalibi:

like, coaching sort of come second, there's a lot of the word like consulting, which you mentioned,

Paul Dawalibi:

how do you guys sort of position yourself in the coaching space relative to the others? And like,

Paul Dawalibi:

what sets Ventus apart in your mind?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I think the biggest thing for me, it comes down to quality, I want to think

Unknown:

about how you build a scalable coaching business. In the end, I see there's a lot of like, tech

Unknown:

founders building like coach, coaching companies, I see a lot of people with different backgrounds,

Unknown:

maybe some like competitive background. But in the end, I think the the greatest companies are always

Unknown:

gonna be the companies that have the best product, who can solve this the biggest problems for the

Unknown:

customers who can deliver the best solution towards the the gamers needs and what I find for

Unknown:

us, like, I, I've been doing this coaching stuff professionally, for over seven years, I've

Unknown:

dedicated 1000s of hours into like, learning about what it takes to be successful coach. And it

Unknown:

really shows in the way we build out our coaching platform, and our product and our service. And I'd

Unknown:

say the real difference is like, we focus on quality. Yes, we can try and build a marketplace

Unknown:

and have like 1000s of coaches, but really like, that's really hard to scale. In my opinion, the

Unknown:

way I want to focus on is like, how do we build a service that is so good at targeting that. So I

Unknown:

want to build a service that's really focused on like, how can we solve the big problems of the

Unknown:

gamers and then scale it out through technology? Rather than focusing on let's build like a

Unknown:

scalable technology and figure out some like coaching element and attach coaching into it? I

Unknown:

want to start off with what are the biggest pain points of our customers? Build a coaching solution

Unknown:

for that? And then use technology to scale that out?

Paul Dawalibi:

And who is your target customer in your mind? Like? What does that person look like?

Paul Dawalibi:

Is it? Is it the parents of a young kid and they, you know, they want to they hope that their kids

Paul Dawalibi:

gonna get a scholarship to an esports program? Is it? Is it the kid who, you know, has ambition to

Paul Dawalibi:

be pro? And you guys want to produce champions? Like, what is the, the profile of your target or

Paul Dawalibi:

ideal customer?

Unknown:

Yeah, so it's funny to ask this question now, because we've we've done a few different like

Unknown:

iterations, I think when I started off, I really focus on the premium customers, I had clients who

Unknown:

are paying over $500 a month, some paying 1000s of dollars a month for coaching, and they would be

Unknown:

with us for six months, a full year plus, right. And, and we start off with like the premium

Unknown:

people, people are trying to go pro collegiate programs, stuff like that. And because we have

Unknown:

like a team of professionals who've worked in the LCS, we have like actual registered sports

Unknown:

psychologist, mentors, coaches, who have years of coaching experience and have spent years building

Unknown:

out a training exercise and routines like, we were able to grab a hold of the more premium audience.

Unknown:

But then as I start building it more, I realized that like there's a cap in terms of like how much

Unknown:

opportunity there is in the premium side. But I'm more excited right now. It's like how we build a

Unknown:

service that can reach billions of gamers across the world. And with that, that's been our main

Unknown:

focus now. And the way we're planning to do that is really through our new lake training partner

Unknown:

matching system. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to take all the foundations of what

Unknown:

made our premium coaching service really amazing, and find a way to teach our students how to teach

Unknown:

themselves. And by being a part of our platform, and our subscription service, they're going to be

Unknown:

dripped training exercises, and drills every single week. And then they're gonna have a

Unknown:

training partner, where we're gonna match them with different people each week. And they're going

Unknown:

to use the training exercises, and the curriculum, the IP that we've built over the past few years,

Unknown:

to be able to work with them each week, and we have like different seminars, we've got, like,

Unknown:

over 50, like recorded lessons. So our version of scalability is more so focused on like, how do we

Unknown:

build something that can, you know, help, you know, hundreds or 1000s of people at once, rather

Unknown:

than we're going to have hundreds of 1000s of coaches try and deliver because we realize, like,

Unknown:

trying to manage that supply chain, it's very hard to manage? Yeah.

Jimmy Baratta:

I want to follow that thread just a little bit. Eric, and it's so impressive. And, you

Jimmy Baratta:

know, I'm sure you have this or or, well, let me just get into it, you know, with these students

Jimmy Baratta:

and that you're teaching in the pain points, like you said, you know, what, what do they want to

Jimmy Baratta:

learn? What what are they coming back for? What are you learning in with regards to specifically

Jimmy Baratta:

addressing those pain points, as you're applying it now to this new business model and your shift

Jimmy Baratta:

towards growth and optimization? And in that same regard, what's the initial feedback you're getting

Jimmy Baratta:

from the students on how you've Been able to adapt your business to your understanding of what that

Jimmy Baratta:

pain point was? You know, have you been initially successful in in this shift and then re addressing

Jimmy Baratta:

that issue?

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. So do you mind just going back to the first question, and then I'll get to

Unknown:

the second one.

Jimmy Baratta:

Yeah. Yeah. So so the initial question was, you know, what were those initial

Jimmy Baratta:

pain points, I suppose, of your students of the people coming through your program, and then we'll

Jimmy Baratta:

go to the second half. Yeah,

Unknown:

so what I noticed was, um, so when I was like a freelance coach, I started off by just

Unknown:

doing vaad reviews, I started just like, watching their gameplay, help them improve their, as I

Unknown:

started getting more experienced coaching, I realized that the reason why players aren't

Unknown:

improving the game, oftentimes, it's not because of the lack of game knowledge. In fact, these

Unknown:

days, you can go on YouTube, you can search guides, there's infinite free resources online,

Unknown:

you don't need to hire a coach to tell you what you're doing wrong. If you weren't so lazy

Unknown:

yourself, maybe you could just research and just compare your gameplay to a professional player.

Unknown:

And just, you know, and you'll be able to, like, see some of the differences in your gameplay to

Unknown:

theirs, because that's what I did. But the reason why people aren't successful, it's not because of

Unknown:

the lack of knowledge or inability to execute what they know they need to do, you know that you're

Unknown:

getting caught out in the same position. And you tell yourself, I'm not going to get caught up in

Unknown:

this position anymore. But for some reason, the gamer still makes that same mistake tomorrow and

Unknown:

the day after, even though they know they're making that mistake, and they beat themselves up,

Unknown:

or it's like, why am I doing this? And the answer is really simple. You've seen this in education,

Unknown:

you've seen this in professional sports, it really comes down to discipline and repetition. If you

Unknown:

want to achieve mastery, if you want to be the best at anything, there's only two shortcuts to

Unknown:

success. One, you learn how to one, you get great genetics, and you're born with a great, great

Unknown:

skill set. And you know, you learn very quickly, you're going to get to the top, you're going to

Unknown:

get to challenger, like you've quickly because you're just born very talented. Or the other

Unknown:

answer, which is the answer I learned for myself was you have to learn how to work smarter and work

Unknown:

harder than everyone else. And the only answer is through discipline, repetition, you do the same

Unknown:

micro actions, again, and again, again, again, and again. And again, to the point where you can't

Unknown:

forget it. And then we forget, focus on the next thing. But when I see like most coaches, what they

Unknown:

do is they just focus on like, what are you doing, they'll watch like what you're doing, right? And

Unknown:

those give you some tips of like, oh, you should do this differently. And you know, when I watch

Unknown:

someone who's playing League, or any other video game, like I could probably point out like,

Unknown:

hundreds of different mistakes are making in just the first five minutes. But what are you going to

Unknown:

do with that information, you can't actually coach yourself to improve on 100 things at once your

Unknown:

brain can't handle that. The what we try and do with all Ventus is we simplify that and we're

Unknown:

like, this week, we're going to give you a training exercise. And you're going to work on

Unknown:

this for one week, straight hundreds of times in a row to the point where you can forget it. And

Unknown:

that's why like I really started this company, because when I went on that journey myself, when I

Unknown:

started learning the power of repetition of like focus discipline, I it really changed my life.

Unknown:

That's how I got out of like my anxiety, my depression. So I think about the people we're

Unknown:

trying to solve, try and build a service for it's really two. There's there's multiple people like

Unknown:

it's for the gamer who wants to get really good at video games. There's also for the parents, it's

Unknown:

those are the institutions because parents are spending like hundreds of dollars on

Unknown:

extracurricular programs for their kids. But not a single dollar of that is being spent towards video

Unknown:

games, because there's still this negative stigma around video games being like, ah, video games,

Unknown:

it's bad, it's unhealthy, it's toxic. And that's why I really started this company, because I was

Unknown:

like, I want to show my parents and the next generation of gamers that you know, video games

Unknown:

can develop real life skills. Because I've seen the dark side of gaming, I've seen myself spiral

Unknown:

deeper and deeper into depression, because you games was that unhealthy escape mechanism. But

Unknown:

when I finally found a big lack of work towards when I had that dream of trying to go pro, I was

Unknown:

able to start working on those skills. And that's what we're really teaching them with their

Unknown:

training exercises with their mental performance coaches. And even just the accountability systems,

Unknown:

with like matching with a training partner, just having a friend who's in that community, who's

Unknown:

also learning the power of mentors that into who understands the power of growth mindset and how

Unknown:

that applies your learning, being in that community is really going to help accelerate the

Unknown:

growth of our players. And our goal with events is really to take that to scale.

Paul Dawalibi:

Eric, I want to dig on the product side a bit, as you mentioned, you know, products

Paul Dawalibi:

super important to you guys having the best products important. And you know, when you're

Paul Dawalibi:

dealing with a premium product like yours is how are you? How are you delivering this to customers

Paul Dawalibi:

in the sense that like, is is it all very custom tailored right someone comes in and a program is

Paul Dawalibi:

built for them is some of it like curriculum that you've built already that gets delivered, you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, multiple times to different clients and you reuse and then I'm also curious about like the mix

Paul Dawalibi:

because I think some one of the things a couple of things you mentioned are quite unique to you guys.

Paul Dawalibi:

Like the mix of training call it on PC versus like, outside of or off the PC right like what

Paul Dawalibi:

that mix looks like. So the average customer

Unknown:

Oh, so So I guess like started off with like, how we deliver to our premium services. Like

Unknown:

I mentioned before, we've made a slight pivot from that we're still working with our premium

Unknown:

customers so, but in terms of that, we've we've got an insane amount of curriculum like we've like

Unknown:

over the years, I've got pages and pages and pages of docs, and templates of how we do coaching. We

Unknown:

even launched like a coaching training program to train our coaches, we had a coach go through six

Unknown:

months of training, just to allow them to work with advances, because we put six months of like,

Unknown:

homework every day, like in our training before we were able to hire him full time, because that's

Unknown:

how insanely like how much like how much like how serious we are about like the quality of our

Unknown:

product, but in terms of like how we actually deliver it, like we've got love curriculum, and

Unknown:

then basically we work with a client, it's we do a discovery call, we understand what their biggest

Unknown:

pain points are. And then we figure out, okay, this seems to be the biggest issue. We'll work on

Unknown:

that until you get really good at that. And we'll structure out, you know, a full month of training

Unknown:

based off of that, and then we'll see how that evolves. Also, we get all of our premium clients

Unknown:

to synchronize their Google Calendar with our coaching staff, we give them access to a team of

Unknown:

coaches, a mental performance coach, head coach, and then like an assistant coach. And basically,

Unknown:

we will help you manage your sleep schedule. So we've had players like we're trying to push Pro,

Unknown:

but we've also had people who are like busy entrepreneurs, and they work like insane hours.

Unknown:

And we're like, okay, we want to make video games very efficient. So we're going to match your work

Unknown:

schedule with you, we're going to try and find pockets and time, and we're going to give you very

Unknown:

intentional training, you have two hours here, how do we make the most of that, and then also

Unknown:

balancing burnout to under sound like, we also don't want to push you too hard over the edge? How

Unknown:

do we structure that calendar? And that's, that's just been a lot of trial and error. And, um, and

Unknown:

everything really comes down to the power of the training exercises? And how do we incentivize them

Unknown:

to do the training exercises. So you know, the way our coaches are trained? Like, there's a lot of

Unknown:

psychology that goes into it, like how do we like, communicate information in a way that will get

Unknown:

them excited, you know, some people do very well, or they need extra push from a, some people are

Unknown:

very, like, competitive, and they want a guy who's gonna yell at them, you're like, you got this man,

Unknown:

you know, you just got to push hard, like, like, Don't be lazy and other people, they just need

Unknown:

more confidence boost, right? So because our coaches go through so much training to understand

Unknown:

that, you know, we're able to deliver really high quality services for our premium clients.

Jimmy Baratta:

Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of philosophy, I suppose, underlying, you know,

Jimmy Baratta:

the program that you're building, right, in terms of understanding what's going to work

Jimmy Baratta:

fundamentally, I'm curious how much of this is transferable to different game titles, because

Jimmy Baratta:

there's a heavy focus for you right on League. But a lot of these, like you said, confidence building

Jimmy Baratta:

and just being a better coach, obviously, that, that it's gonna work in any sense in life in

Jimmy Baratta:

general, not just in gaming. So, you know, as you build up this curriculum, and as you build out

Jimmy Baratta:

your your protocols, I suppose for in training, you know, internally for your product, you know,

Jimmy Baratta:

where are you focusing on taking this across? What titles what games are, you know, in what capacity?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I've been talking to like a few, like potential partners to see like, what's the

Unknown:

next vertical to expand to, and I would say, because we're really big on trying to target like

Unknown:

the parents, and we're trying to target the institutions, because we see that's where the real

Unknown:

money is, is really coming from so the research I've seen, it's like rocket leagues very big. For

Unknown:

parents and institutions, we see Smash, smash committees pretty big as well, or knights pretty

Unknown:

big. And valorant is also really big, specifically, not not necessarily with the

Unknown:

parents, but it's really big, because we have the connections with riot and League of Legends. So

Unknown:

that's like a very, it's very popular game. So those are like the top titles we're looking at and

Unknown:

cod just because of the size, but man, if I had to pick two titles, I would say probably Valerie just

Unknown:

because it's very close to her ecosystem, and then probably Rocket League, um, just because of, like,

Unknown:

how simple it is for like parents to grasp and understand

Jimmy Baratta:

it. Oh, it's gonna just quick follow up on that, you know, and again,

Jimmy Baratta:

understanding that your product now it's going to be applied to a different game. How does that also

Jimmy Baratta:

affect I suppose, your marketing and your community, right? If you have a discord or your

Jimmy Baratta:

socials, because you know, a lot of these fandoms are super loyal to that one game. So I'm curious

Jimmy Baratta:

how that affects the community that you're growing as well as you start to expand and incorporate new

Jimmy Baratta:

users new clients, but that have very conflicting interest or at least separate separate interests.

Unknown:

Yeah, so right now like we're all in on League of Legends, because that's where my network

Unknown:

and my experiences by philosophy for business. I mean, if I'm going to take the philosophies for

Unknown:

coaching, it really comes down to focus. It's my individual success came from knowing what I'm good

Unknown:

at, and I'm going to dominate that one industry. So my goal is like how do we become number one

Unknown:

number two in League of Legends It's like, get to a point where, you know, everyone knows like, oh

Unknown:

Ventus as the top like coaching platform for League of Legends, and from there, we can pivot

Unknown:

very quickly to games like valorant Rocket League, and you know, with like venture capital money,

Unknown:

like, we'll be able to scale very quickly and implement those systems similar to how TSM they

Unknown:

expand to fortnight very quickly, they already built a brand in League of Legends. And because

Unknown:

they, they built a track record of success, when they translated that success to other titles, it

Unknown:

was very natural for them, or easy for them to recruit a team in fortnight because they, like the

Unknown:

committee already knew, like these guys know what they're doing from a business standpoint. So no, I

Unknown:

because we're still in the earlier stages of the startup, like, I don't want to take on more than I

Unknown:

can chew, I want to make sure we prove this business model, get that fleshed out, and then

Unknown:

we're going to expand to the other titles. Because I think there's there's a lot of similarities,

Unknown:

like, like you mentioned before, these coaching principles, it's really focused on a lot of mental

Unknown:

performance, like growth, mindset, mental resilience, like work ethic, it doesn't matter

Unknown:

what you're trying to get good at, these principles apply to everything. And that's why we

Unknown:

started this company, because the goal is to help the player who wants to go pro. And what they

Unknown:

don't realize is 99% of players won't ever be pro, or won't ever make it to go pro 99% players won't

Unknown:

ever become a big influencer, everyone wants to become that big influencer, that big player. How

Unknown:

do we equip these students, these players with the skills to be successful, no matter what they set

Unknown:

their mind to in life, and that foundation, in our training in our in our learning curriculum, it

Unknown:

will apply to no matter what esports title, the transition into,

Paul Dawalibi:

does a challenge then become? Eric, the hiring of good coaches that meet sort of your

Paul Dawalibi:

standards? Is that sort of become the the biggest challenge to scale this business to, you know, a

Paul Dawalibi:

very large size that, you know, are there enough great coaches out there that meet the kind of very

Paul Dawalibi:

high standards, you guys have said? Or are you resigned to the fact that basically, you may have

Paul Dawalibi:

to train every coach that comes through your door,

Unknown:

we've got a great business model. So I'm not afraid about expand to other other titles, I

Unknown:

think we can, we can probably hire like the best coaches when we're ready. Just because the margins

Unknown:

of our products are really good, because we have, like our premium services, like we make money off

Unknown:

of that. And then our and then our scalable, like services or subscription services that start at

Unknown:

like $30 a month, and we run like different promos for that, like, the margins are infinite. Like, if

Unknown:

we got 1000 clients, like we're 99 90% margin right on that, because we're doing like one coach

Unknown:

to 1000 people, right. So when you have margins like that, compared to you know, coaching

Unknown:

marketplaces would take 10% cut, you know, it gives you room to bring in the best talent. And

Unknown:

not only that, like, our, the way our business is structured from a coaching training coaches

Unknown:

standpoint, our beta when we train our other coach, he paid for the training and the coaching

Unknown:

because of the credibility that I have in this space. And our team has in this space. He paid

Unknown:

$9,000 are this this certification, but you know what it was worth it for him much better

Unknown:

investment than most college degrees, because he got a full time job after that. So I mean, with

Unknown:

with that training, like it's, it's a great model, because we're actually profiting from recruiting,

Unknown:

like when we recruit a coach, we're profiting and then there, we know that they're the best person

Unknown:

for the job, because we're training them we're teaching them in a way that's gonna, that's going

Unknown:

to be successful our business because I've, I've tried hiring, like some big name coaches, and I

Unknown:

paid some decent money for like, very reputable coaches. And I realized, like, the guy we trained

Unknown:

in house, his client retention rate was much higher because of the quality of our training

Unknown:

itself. Because the big name coach was so used to his ways of coaching like in LCS, like, we

Unknown:

couldn't mold him into the coach we want to be, and the guy that we had go through our training

Unknown:

program, where we trained him for six months, like his client retention rate was like insanely high,

Unknown:

and I'm so impressed, and like, really grateful that you know, he joined our beta program, and

Unknown:

that's really proving that business model. So you know, we're excited to take that to other games

Unknown:

eventually, and do the next phase of the pitching training program.

Jimmy Baratta:

It's a great story and you love hearing they think, your ability to create

Jimmy Baratta:

opportunities and jobs for the coaches, as well as I think a useful skill set for your clientele. The

Jimmy Baratta:

third piece of that wheel, you know, in there, at least for me that I'm always thinking about

Jimmy Baratta:

business development, because so much of what I do, how valuable is it to you? How important is it

Jimmy Baratta:

to you? And how great has it been for the start of your business? Not only to be in Liga legends, but

Jimmy Baratta:

to have such a great line of communication with arguably, I think the best the best in the

Jimmy Baratta:

business right now in riot, you know, how important is that connection, that relationship?

Jimmy Baratta:

And how do you see yourself facilitating future relationships like that with some of the other

Jimmy Baratta:

developers and publishers?

Unknown:

Yeah, I think that stuff is really important to be honest. Like I don't have those

Unknown:

connections at right yet. So we've been able to just bootstrap our way through this, just from

Unknown:

like my, my tighter knit circle and my network there. I mean, if we were to get like a

Unknown:

partnership with riot, I think that the growth of the company would just skyrocket like crazy. Just

Unknown:

having the backup, the backing the validity, but also the pipeline of customers. So I mean, that's

Unknown:

going to be one of our big targets. I think right now, we've been the past year or so we've been so

Unknown:

invested into like, building out the perfect product, like delivering the most quality service

Unknown:

to our users, like, we haven't been so big on the bizdev side, we haven't been getting these big

Unknown:

partnerships, none of that PR, like, haven't done any marketing, everything's just very organic. So

Unknown:

I'm excited to get move to that phase where you know, we can start growing and securing these big

Unknown:

partnerships, because I think we get that big megaphone, or that big, like signal where it's

Unknown:

like, Hey, this is RIAA approved. Like, I think that would be insane. And we and the way we

Unknown:

structured the business, like we can handle an influx of 10s of 1000s of clients and still be

Unknown:

able to deliver the same quality service. In fact, something I didn't fully mentioned, but like the

Unknown:

quality of our service actually goes up based off of the number of clients in the program, because

Unknown:

we'll be able to match them with better training partners, because we're going to be able to match

Unknown:

our students with someone who's the exact same rank wants to learn the exact same thing that

Unknown:

week, and wants to you know, is in the same server as the same availabilities right now are matching

Unknown:

system is very manual, through we're getting like, you know, bad master players with gold players,

Unknown:

but I mean, they're, they're, they're happy doing it, because like, we've got a really great

Unknown:

community, and they're still learning that you can get, but imagine we can get this product to a

Unknown:

point where you can have someone who's like your perfect match. I think that's gonna be really

Unknown:

exciting for the scaling and the growth of the product.

Paul Dawalibi:

And so Eric, what is like, Paint me a Picture of the future. And you can pick the

Paul Dawalibi:

timeline, five years, 10 years, three years, whatever timeline you you're looking ahead at? Is

Paul Dawalibi:

there a world? And I've asked this question before, is there a world where this kind of

Paul Dawalibi:

coaching is as ubiquitous as common as people putting their kids with a math tutor? Right? Like,

Paul Dawalibi:

will we reach this level of acceptance? Because, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but or if

Paul Dawalibi:

you if you disagree, so much of this, to me, is driven by the parents, right? Like the kinds of

Paul Dawalibi:

this is decisions made by the parents to pay to get their kids coaching, there may be the odd one,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know, those the minority that will do it themselves or pay for it themselves? But I feel

Paul Dawalibi:

like the huge opportunity is, how do you get every parent thinking, you know, this is more important

Paul Dawalibi:

than getting my kid my son or daughter, a math tutor? Right? And, like, how far away are we from

Paul Dawalibi:

that in your mind? Like, what does that future look like? Do we get there? Is it? Is it tomorrow?

Paul Dawalibi:

Is it three years? Is it 10 years?

Unknown:

Yeah, it's hard to say. But I mean, if you're talking about getting to a point where

Unknown:

sending your kid to video game camps or lessons is as popular sending your kids to piano lessons, or

Unknown:

swimming lessons, stuff like that, I'd probably get anywhere in the in the five to 10 year mark, I

Unknown:

think there's still a ways away. I think it's gonna take startups like us, and you know, I know

Unknown:

there's a lot of other startups trying to, you know, tap into that apple into that space, but

Unknown:

it's gonna be, you're gonna need some big partnerships and stuff, you're gonna need to get

Unknown:

the credibility, have the right partners that parents trust. So I know, on my end, like, I can

Unknown:

get the credibility from the gamers, we already have the buy in, parents love. I mean, kids,

Unknown:

gamers love this, right? So they're gonna tell their parents, but how do we get parents to be

Unknown:

like, this is something really cool. I think it starts with having a really strong mission, making

Unknown:

sure your core values, making sure the product is actually delivering really strong value for your

Unknown:

clients. And then once you have that, then you can bring in institutional partners, big corporations,

Unknown:

fortune 500 companies that put the seal of approval and be like, this is a company that

Unknown:

really pushes mental health mental performance, like, you know, we've we've actually done a recent

Unknown:

survey are right now 80% of our clients, they've said that through the program, they've seen a

Unknown:

development in the growth mindset, you've seen 86% of our clients saying like, they've improved their

Unknown:

mental resilience and 92% of their, of our clients say they've developed stronger work ethic through

Unknown:

our program. And when we present these statistics to the larger corporations and partners,

Unknown:

eventually, I think that will hopefully, you know, snowball and bloon the goal of getting every

Unknown:

single parent to send their kids to video game programs, because every kid is playing video games

Unknown:

right now, the question is like, when will parents want to support their their children's, you know,

Unknown:

passion for gaming?

Paul Dawalibi:

And maybe you already answered it there but like, what are those accelerants? Right,

Paul Dawalibi:

like, what are the things the levers that that you have the capability to pull on? And others in the

Paul Dawalibi:

industry that that may take that five to 10 years down to, you know, two to three years? Like what

Paul Dawalibi:

are those accelerants? Is it bigger prize pools, more University esports programs? Is it like, what

Paul Dawalibi:

are the accelerants in your mind?

Unknown:

I think what you guys are doing is a great decelerator I think media, I think, when you

Unknown:

think about how esports companies are successful, it's building a brand starts off by having, like,

Unknown:

I think you can create a movement where if you can speak to a mass amounts of parents, and

Unknown:

corporations, and if you get them to believe and buy into the story, right? Now, it's going to

Unknown:

start to spread, because they're like, Wow, my kid said, join this program, and then they're gonna

Unknown:

tell their friend or this corporation while we partnered with all Ventus. And they're doing some

Unknown:

really amazing work for employees in terms of like, improving their mental performance. And it's

Unknown:

really fun. So I think as like, it really comes down to like, I'd say content, I think that's

Unknown:

going to be one of our big goals in the next year is like, how do we really get that content out

Unknown:

there not just to the gamers because I think those those those channels are already proven. I mean,

Unknown:

obviously, you could do like influencer marketing. You could you could do YouTube content. You do

Unknown:

those like click clickbait, you know, educational videos, right? That that's like that strategy has

Unknown:

been played out. Many times people know how to target that. The big question mark is how do you

Unknown:

deliver content that the older demographic, right, the parents institutions are going to be, you

Unknown:

know, really excited about I think that's going to come down to love, like news, use of the letters,

Unknown:

blog posts, podcast content, conferences, panels, right. So I think that's going to be a part of the

Unknown:

strategy in the next year.

Paul Dawalibi:

Very cool. I love that answer. Obviously, I love that answer. Um, Jimmy, this

Paul Dawalibi:

brings us to, you know, everyone's favorite new segment. Jimmy, I'd love if, you know, you could

Paul Dawalibi:

take ERIC through judge Jimmy's cross examination here. And for those of you who are new to the

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast, if you don't know if this is your very first time, Judge Jimmy's gonna ask Eric a few

Paul Dawalibi:

rapid fire questions here. Looking to dive a bit deeper into who Eric is as a gamer, as a person as

Paul Dawalibi:

a business person. All those good things. Honorable Judge Jimmy, take it away.

Jimmy Baratta:

Great. Yeah. A couple quick questions for Eric. First one, let's see. What is

Jimmy Baratta:

your favorite food or drink when gaming?

Unknown:

Oh, God, like when I game I lose track. I forget to eat and drink water. I know that's a

Unknown:

very boring answer. Like I drink a lot of water. I like that. Yeah,

Unknown:

I love your first answer that you forget because you're so into it. It's the performance coach

Unknown:

answer.

Paul Dawalibi:

And that's

Jimmy Baratta:

that's the Rinaldo answer to if you guys remember when he done the Coca Cola bottle

Jimmy Baratta:

and said you know, our great, I typically ask favorite video games, but we know that one let's

Jimmy Baratta:

actually take it old school. What was your favorite video game growing up before you ever

Jimmy Baratta:

came across sweet, so your pre weekdays.

Unknown:

I've got to I think I really liked all the NBA titles I played on my playstation and

Unknown:

stuff. It got me I was in love with the manager tools. I loved like trading. And so I think that

Unknown:

was a good early, early exposure to business and the other game would be Maplestory. I think I love

Unknown:

economics. I love the marketplace. I was a guy who wasn't doing as many of the quests but I would be

Unknown:

buying and selling items. So I think that was a sneak peek towards my love for that guy.

Paul Dawalibi:

That's so funny. That's my ears. That by the way, that's an interesting like, the

Paul Dawalibi:

founder of maple syrup. For those who don't know actually just passed away some actually quite sad.

Paul Dawalibi:

But that is a great game.

Jimmy Baratta:

Yeah. Nice smooth transition. Sorry.

Paul Dawalibi:

I hope game. Sorry. Yeah.

Jimmy Baratta:

Definitely a sad Saturday here. Let's pick it back up. Eric. This is a fun one.

Jimmy Baratta:

What is your favorite ninja turtle?

Unknown:

Oh, gosh. Um, oh, man. I didn't follow Ninja Turtles. I can't give a good answer here.

Unknown:

I'm sorry. Yeah.

Jimmy Baratta:

Fair enough. There's a first time for everything, I suppose.

Paul Dawalibi:

My alternate question there, Jimmy, like, like, I guess our ranger or I don't know.

Paul Dawalibi:

Like, if you didn't grow up on Ninja Turtles, he grew up on one of these things, right?

Jimmy Baratta:

I mean, let's expand the question. They were kind of diverging here. But Eric, what

Jimmy Baratta:

was like your favorite TV series growing up? And then the character within that? Um, are you one of

Jimmy Baratta:

those outdoors kids?

Unknown:

Sports. Like, my parents didn't even have cable. Like they didn't let me watch TV. They went

Unknown:

astray. They didn't let me play video games. So that's why I was so addicted to video games,

Unknown:

because they didn't let me. Yeah. Or watch TV. Yeah.

Jimmy Baratta:

And now this is a successful business in a massive industry and you did a

Jimmy Baratta:

complete one. Door. It's great. Alright, last question here. Where do you hope? Well, actually,

Jimmy Baratta:

we asked that one already. Let me switch that up. What keeps you up at night? What's your biggest

Jimmy Baratta:

problem for your company today that that you're kind of always thinking about how do I solve this?

Jimmy Baratta:

Are I'm going to have to come across this eventually, and I need to plan for it.

Unknown:

I want to make all the people who believe in me proud, I think that I feel the weight of

Unknown:

that on my shoulders every day, leading a company. Now I've had plenty of people who come in early,

Unknown:

we're still you know, we're still like Bootstrap. I've invested my personal money into this. And I'm

Unknown:

not able to pay like competitive salaries. I wish I could write. But people are taking a chance on

Unknown:

this business because they believe in the mission and they believe in the vision. And I think that

Unknown:

motivates me every day to just work a bit harder to be like, okay, are these people believe in me,

Unknown:

they put their trust in me and I want to deliver for them. So that's what keeps me up.

Jimmy Baratta:

lovelies answers. I mean, Eric, it's been such a pleasure having you on the show.

Jimmy Baratta:

It's such a pleasure getting to know you over the past few months and meeting you late last year.

Jimmy Baratta:

And and back to you, Paul. Eric, thanks so much for for joining us today.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think that's the best answer yet to that question. Honestly. Eric, again, thank you

Paul Dawalibi:

for being on the show. For if you want to be followed or found, or, you know, where can people

Paul Dawalibi:

go find out more about you or what you're doing or event is like, Where can people follow or find

Paul Dawalibi:

you?

Unknown:

Yeah, just connect with me on LinkedIn. I think that's probably the best place for business.

Unknown:

So Eric lay all Ventoux. So, yeah, search me up on LinkedIn, I set pretty much everyone. So I'm

Unknown:

present me with some unique opportunities. I love you know, chatting, esports business. And

Unknown:

obviously, I mentioned a bit about partnerships. I think that's gonna be a big goal for us in this

Unknown:

new year. So I'm happy to explore what opportunities are out there.

Paul Dawalibi:

I love that I love what you guys are doing. And just having met you now and you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, have these conversations I, I have no doubt this is going to be a massive success. So

Paul Dawalibi:

congratulations on all the success so far and excited to see where all Ventus goes. For our

Paul Dawalibi:

listeners, guys, just a couple of reminders, couple of housekeeping things. Make sure to follow

Paul Dawalibi:

business of esports everywhere. Everywhere you get our content, whether it's YouTube or Twitter, or

Paul Dawalibi:

Instagram, or tick tock, even Reddit, you name it everywhere you can find business of esports just

Paul Dawalibi:

search for it. Either business of esports or busy sports. And also don't forget our live stream

Paul Dawalibi:

Wednesdays at 8:30pm. Eastern time. It's a lot of fun. Make sure you show up for that. Again, you

Paul Dawalibi:

can find that everywhere you find our content. And let me know let the professor know let William

Paul Dawalibi:

Collis myself Jimmy know how you're liking the new show office hours with the professor. We're really

Paul Dawalibi:

proud of it. And we hope you guys are enjoying it. Jimmy Thank you, Eric, thank you so much for being

Paul Dawalibi:

on the show. Thank you guys all for listening. And as always, we will see you next week.

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