This podcast episode delves into the intriguing phenomenon of synesthesia, characterized by the intermingling of sensory perceptions. Our guests, Bridget O'Regan and Blake Hamilton, share their personal experiences with this condition, elucidating how they perceive sounds, colors, and shapes in ways that defy conventional sensory boundaries. I also contribute my own insights regarding the nuances of synesthetic experiences and the ways in which they influence our interactions with music and sound. We explore the complexities of this sensory condition, addressing both its challenges and its unique gifts. Through engaging dialogue, we aim to foster a deeper understanding of synesthesia and its implications in the realm of creativity and perception.

Takeaways:

• Our podcast episode delves into the unique sensory condition known as synesthesia.
• It is essential to understand the various forms of synesthesia experienced by different individuals.
• Listeners are encouraged to explore the Canadian Synesthesia Association for additional insights into this phenomenon.
• The interplay between music and color perception can significantly enhance a musician's creativity.
• We emphasize the importance of discussing personal experiences with synesthesia to foster greater understanding and awareness.

Links referenced in this episode:

• thednaproject.ca
• canadiansynesthesiaassociation.com
• blakemakesnoises.com
• bridgetoregan.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• DNA Project
• MPL
• Canadian Synesthesia Association

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Today's episode is about a sensory condition called synesthesia.

Both of our guests, Bridget O'Regan and Blake Hamilton, have this condition, and I chime in as well with my own experiences.

So let's get right to it.

This is the DNA airwaves.

Hello.

Hi.

Hi.

Hi.

So, normally, I don't think we said this before.

We're just going to record the conversation.

It's going to be a lot more polished when we actually put it out to the Internet.

Sounds great.

Do editing and all that good stuff later.

Cool.

Can I hear you again?

Here I am.

Yeah, I just want to sign till delivery.

Sound nice?

So how are you guys doing today?

Good.

Good.

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

Thank you for coming.

I know we talked earlier, but for the sake of the show, we're going to pretend that this is the first time we've introduced each other.

Yeah.

So why don't you guys say who you are and what you do?

Sure.

Yeah.

I'm Bridget Oregan.

And I'm a bar violinist, electric violinist, fiddle player in Toronto.

I'm Blake Hamilton.

I.

I don't know.

I play a bunch of instruments.

We both play viola.

Right.

I do a lot of bass and guitar.

I went to school for classical music and now I play more jazz.

I garden right now.

Honestly, I can't say I'm a kicking musician or anything.

You are ready for the pandemic, food shortage and the apocalypse?

Pretty much, yeah.

That's pretty much it.

Do a little recording here and there.

That's awesome.

I didn't introduce you guys.

How are you guys doing?

Anthony, Matt.

Good.

We're good.

Yeah, we're great.

How's your gardening going?

Mine's actually gone pretty good.

I was growing a bunch of herbs this year, so I was trying to grow like cilantro.

Yeah.

No weed.

Not this year.

Next year I want to start small, like rosemary, basil, mint.

Just the basics.

I've never gardened really heavily before and I graduated to a tomato and I felt pretty good about that.

So next year I'm gonna try like cucumbers and maybe kale or Swiss chard.

I don't know.

Kale's easy.

Yeah, that's what I was told.

To get some beets in there.

Baby steps.

Whatever's easy.

I don't know what's easy, but I'm slowly learning.

I don't know if there's anything that's easy.

It's just about not screwing it up.

Basil's easy.

You plant one basil plant and then you have too much basil.

Same with such thing as too much bas.

Wild.

That's cuz they're related.

It's true.

They taste alike too.

That's true.

So is catnip.

What?

Yeah, catnips are related to mint and oregano.

It's in the balm family.

Wow.

I learned something new too.

So much.

I'm growing a lot of catnip.

You can actually cook with it.

I'm not.

You can't really stoned off of it.

Yeah, yeah.

What does it taste like?

It's nice in tea.

It's like a spicy, minty weed taste.

Kind of tastes like hemp.

And there's no like psychedelic effect?

No, no.

Your cat just trips balls when it has it.

That's it.

Yeah.

Anyways, let's talk about music.

Welcome to the gardening podcast.

No, I guess.

Anthony, do you want to kind of lead into why we had this podcast?

Because I guess I'll start talking.

Last time we did an interview with you, Bridget, you had accidentally told us about this Gift or I don't know what you guys call it.

Is it a gift?

Is it a condition?

Maybe.

What is it actually called, though?

Like, is it synesthesia?

What is that?

Is it.

Would you consider it a condition?

Matt, do you know what it's called?

Because you have it, don't you?

I do.

I don't want to call it condition because I don't want to have any kind of, like, negative connotation.

But some, when I talk to people about it, they tend to kind of this, like, negative way about it.

But it, to me, it's exciting and it's like a gift.

Like a phenomenon.

Yeah.

I feel like it depends who you're talking to.

Okay.

I went to school with a guy.

If he heard the color yellow, he literally had a panic attack and left the classroom.

If someone said yellow?

No.

Heard the color yellow.

Excuse me.

Wait.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's give a little preface.

Synesthesia, from what I understand, is any kind of cross between any of your senses.

So some people can taste numbers, right?

Yeah.

Or who knows?

There's a lot of different variations.

This guy, perfect pitch, if he heard a specific frequency that in his head registered to the color yellow, he would literally scream and run out the room.

So I feel like to him it's a condition.

Yeah, I guess so.

Get him here.

Where is he?

Yeah, yeah, I know.

And I.

I don't know.

I think it's a gift.

I think so, too.

Just when I hear you guys talk about it or other people talk about, I'm just like, wow, it sounds amazing.

But then you guys sometimes sound like you're tormented by it, so it's kind of confusing to me.

I guess it depends on the situation, right?

For sure.

True.

Yeah.

You're synes.

Like, what's your kind of synesthesia?

It's nothing bad.

It's my.

Actually.

Well, it's a little.

I would say I'm closer to a condition.

Like, my sense of smell doesn't really work if it's loud sounds distract me too much to also smell.

So if someone farted in a rock concert, you wouldn't smell?

Probably more so now as an adult, but as a child, I just stand there with my mouth open.

Wow.

Somebody make some noise.

Let's test this out.

That's funny.

I guess for the three of you, my first question would be, when did each of you realize that you had this ability?

I guess we'll start with you, Bridget.

Ladies first.

Yeah.

I was in high school and I went to an arts high school, so it was super.

You Know, let's see.

It was super commonplace for people to jam and have, like, little rehearsals, put little ensembles together.

So one day I really, really wanted to cover the song Mr.

Blue Sky.

Just so happy.

And I, you know, had singers, a whole band at my disposal.

Because that's just what you do.

You just get together.

So I, you know, Facebook messaged a bunch of people.

I'm like, hey, here's a song I want to do for, like, the end of your recital.

Yeah, let's get together, everyone, like, pick out their part.

Let's go.

And then we came to the first rehearsal and I was like, okay, so everyone, 1, 2, 3.

Everyone's like, well, you haven't given us the sheet music yet.

I'm like, well, I told you to just pick out your part.

It's really easy, you know, like horns, your orange.

Like you're way up there.

And then, like, you know, like piano.

You're like, you're the purple.

You know, why can't you just see your parts in the music?

Memorize it or write it down and then come to rehearsal prepared?

Right.

So I'm looking at you like, what are you talking about?

And I just didn't understand why people couldn't just pick out their parts in the music that was just right in front of their face and do it.

So what did you do after, like, when you realized in that moment that no one else was seeing or breaking it down the way you were?

Yeah.

Did you, like, how did that make you feel?

Were you confused or were you just like, I gotta talk to someone about this?

Cause no one's seeing their parts.

I mean, I just thought, like, ah, you know, people are lazy.

They're making, you know, excuses.

They have some other stuff going on.

I think I ended up, like, getting the sheet music from somewhere.

Yeah.

But by that time, it was like, you know, too late to do the audition for stuff.

So I was like, oh, you know, whatever, next time.

And I just kind of forgot about it.

Right.

Because when did it.

Or when did you.

When were you able to actually correlate it to synesthesia?

That was like.

That was university, I'd say, wow.

It was a music and film class.

So there were a lot of visual aspects along with the music being talked about.

And then they talked about synesthesia.

Like, oh, some film directors have synesthesia.

So they do, you know, music in a different way.

I was like, oh, oh, cool.

What's that?

Oh, let's learn about a bit more about this.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, I just researched it on my Own and yeah, came to the conclusion that's the thing, I might have.

So you never spoke to like an actual doctor about it or went to go get like tested?

I don't even know if you'd go get tested.

Does anyone get tested for citizenship?

Assume you have it and just carry on with life.

The test would be like an MRI test and things of that sort.

If it's a real problem for you and like, you know, if certain sounds taste like puke or whatever, then you need to go get that checked out.

Yeah, I did ask about it because my ex boyfriend's dad is a kind of like psychology professor.

He's his doctorate in psychology.

So I'm like, hey, do you know a place that does like, you know, brain scans for certain things?

And he, you know, sent me to one place and they're like, yeah, it's gonna be like a three year wait since you don't really have a condition, you're just interested and it's gonna be like 500 bucks and it's gonna be yeah, so I'm good.

I don't want to know that bad.

Damn.

And what about you, Blake?

Yeah, I.

I mean I went to an art high school too.

I feel like that's where I was hinted about it.

I was in a jazz theory class and I was like literally acing all of the listening tests.

So it's like play a chord.

What the chord is, right?

Is it a major?

Seven, whatever.

And they're like, how do you hear this?

I'm like, well, minor 7 flat 5.

That's like purple and blue, man.

Like, what's the problem?

And my teacher just kind of looks at me, he's like, are you thin?

Aesthetic synesthetic?

I can't even say the word.

I'm just like, I don't know what the bloody F is that, right?

And like since then I've been like, yeah, I'm synesthetic.

But then I hear like other people talk about it and I really don't think I'm like full blown.

Like for me it's just intervals.

Right?

Right.

So like major thirds, minor thirds have different color qualities to them and then lower, higher pitch and like different timbre things.

So it's kind of like, I don't know, I feel like I had a cheat sheet in my head.

More of like, well, I hear this.

So it's this.

It's not like a full on C colors through my eyes when I hear sound.

It's kind of like drops of like food coloring and water in my brain.

And we don't all feel or hear the same thing.

Like, the.

I remember one of the first albums I was making as a musician, I was singing a little flat because drummers are not good singers.

And the producer, Peter Spencer goes, you know, just when you're thinking of what you're singing towards, like, let's say you're singing towards an orange, and you're just red.

Like, make it a little more or.

And I'm like, what are you talking about?

And I have synesthesia.

I'm like, that doesn't work that way.

What do you mean?

And he's like, yeah, just imagine it.

Like, I don't think he understood that he had it either.

He wanted you to go from my understanding of red to orange.

He wanted you to go sharper.

Yeah, I mean, I was flat.

I was like, just say, go sharp.

And he's like, yeah, but that's not as helpful.

I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's more.

Yeah, we bump into one another all the time and don't even realize it.

Yeah.

Yeah, there you go.

Like, I didn't even realize that so many of my friends and colleagues had it until I put out the Facebook post, like, hey, everyone, looking for some musicians to talk about this anesthesia.

And then, like, five people I've worked with for, like, three years now were like, you, too?

Oh, man, that's crazy.

Because, like, you just never talk about it unless you're inebriated in some way, and you're just like, whoa, man.

Do you, like, there seems to be, like, not with mat so much, but with you, too.

Almost like, a little bit of, like, shame that you have it.

Like, you're like, do you.

Why wouldn't you tell more people about this amazing gift?

And when you meet somebody or when you're around other artistic people, like you, for example, did you talk to your teacher more about it, or did you kind of just like, oh, I guess I haven't, and just carry on?

I mean, she only had so many answers, I guess, right?

Yeah.

I feel like, like, when I went to university, there were a few people with synesthesia.

But after I talked to them, I was like, do I even have it right?

It's like I'm talking about a guy that has panic attacks about hearing the color yellow.

And I'm like, I don't have that.

Like, maybe I'm just thinking in a way.

Like, I'm just using it as a mode of thinking.

But then, I don't know, reflecting on it.

I've done some Research.

It's not a condition for me.

Right.

But it's kind of nice.

Like, now I'm obsessed with diminished seven chords, right?

I'm obsessed.

I'm obsessed.

Seven, diminished seven chords.

You can do minor six patterns and all of this.

And basically it's like minor third, minor third, minor third, minor 3rd.

So it's this, like, monochromatic blue.

Right.

And it's just so much better than, like, a dominant seven chord.

And I don't know why it is, but it's just now I'm kind of, like, using these colors in my head to develop, practicing, and, like, different improv kind of techniques.

I'm like.

I want to improvise in, like, more of a red, which is more usually major.

Right.

And it's like, I want to be more blue, and it's usually like minors.

What's interesting is that it's as if everybody strives to, like.

If you're trying to describe a sound to someone, you would use a visual description.

Yeah, Right.

You'd be like.

Or.

Or a temperature.

Right.

It's warmer, it's colder, it's shimmers.

It's like.

There's no other way to describe it.

Yeah.

And some brains just go there.

That's fascinating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It would be really cool if you can give us kind of a breakdown of how you see and hear these chord types.

I wish you had an instrument to show us.

I mean, we were talking about this a little earlier before we got all set up.

Like, we both play viola and which, for those that don't know it's a bigger violin.

I'm sure there's going to be some person that's like, what is that?

So anyways, like, the tuning is like C, G, D, A.

And I was talking about, like, there's this one box, Suite number five, where you have the option to tune one of the strings down to a G.

So you get like, G, sorry, C, G, D, C.

What ends up happening.

Or, sorry, C, G, D, G.

And what happens is everything rings and it's in C minor.

And it is like, the most powerful color explosion.

I played it for two years in university.

Like, I was obsessed with playing as.

And for me, it's just like all of these scalar motions kind of to these big chords that are in the suite.

Like, there's a lot of minor chords, there's a lot of diminished.

There's a lot of, like, extensions and, like, all these weird tonal centers that it goes from, like, dark burgundy reds to blues to purples, and then it ends on, like, a major BII 7 chord and goes back to the ends in C major instead of C minor.

And you're just like, explosion, explosion.

It's.

It's.

I'm ranting a little bit, but it's kind of like, oh, it's awesome.

The lower the pitch, kind of like, the deeper the color.

The higher the pitch, kind of the lighter in color.

So, like, if I'm hearing blue and it's in an upper range, it's kind of like a baby blue, opposed to, like, a dark.

Like, navy blue.

If it was like a.

Like, a minor third in the bottom of a piano, that's like, dark, dark, dark blue.

Right.

Fifths are like, more.

Fifths and fourths are kind of laser tones, kind of like, they just fit really well, like a perfect fifth.

And it's kind of like a really dark, solid color because it's not really on its own pitch.

It's when you add, like, the majors and the minors for me, that it changes.

Like, more red, more blue, more yellow, that kind of thing.

I don't know.

It's kind of all over the place.

Yeah.

It's hard for me to put it into exact words.

If you guys want a visualization, I don't know if this is a bit too old school, but remember when you would plug, like, a VCR or DVD player with three cables?

It'd be.

Yeah, RCA cables.

Yeah.

White and yellow.

Imagine if you were to take the audio cable and plug it into the video input, and it connects.

Same cable, right?

Yeah.

It would give you either static or it depends on what the sound is, but you would get.

You would take that signal and just route it somewhere else.

Yeah.

Where it gets interpreted as a visual.

So it's kind of like that.

All the different senses are interconnected in the brain.

This might sound stupid, but where are the visuals coming from?

Is it coming from the instrument, or are you seeing it just, like, in the.

It's kind of like mind's eye.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say.

Like, if I say imagine a pink elephant, like, you're not seeing it, but you can clearly, like, put those two concepts together and be like, oh, wicked cool.

It's right there, actually.

Yeah.

But as you were describing it, Blake, it was like you were actually seeing it.

Yeah.

It felt like your eyes were closed.

Yeah.

Well, like I was saying earlier, it's, like drips of, like, food coloring and water.

Like, it's in.

It's.

It's in the mind's eye.

Like this little Third eye opening, awakening, all that nonsense.

Right.

I think it's like as immediate.

If I said, okay, what color at a stoplight is go in, you'd be like, oh, green, mauve.

Oh, yeah.

I think you need to get your eyes checked.

I, I, I've kind of come to realize though, like, there's a bit of a delay.

Like it's kind of like a, When I've played a piece of music over and over again, then I kind of know where the colors are versus like a first time listen where it's kind of like, like latency when you're recording.

It'S almost like you're, the visual cortex has to render.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it doesn't mean that, like, I don't know, it's not like I, it's not like I turn it on or off, but sometimes I just kind of ignore it.

Like I can just listen to music and do stuff.

Like it's not like it's always there.

Yeah, okay.

It's just kind of like if I want to focus on it and I want to work on stuff, then I can really kind of hone into it.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

Like, you guys play music, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like, if you ever like thought of what you're about to play on your instrument instead of just playing the notes, like you have that pre thought of like what you're about to play.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Okay.

And you play better because of that.

It's kind of like that, right?

Like, if I'm just listening to it, it's like, yeah, I'm still playing, but it's not as confident almost.

So it's just kind of like I'm thinking behind instead of ahead.

Right.

It's one of those kind of things.

It takes a while for it to like kind of sync up a little bit.

Do you forget or do you always remember the colors of the music that you've played?

It changes a little bit.

Okay.

More in like, I guess, vividness, I don't want to say.

But like minor thirds and major thirds are pretty much always like blues and purples to like reds and yellows.

Pretty much always.

And then when you get like chords as like major third, minor third, then you get the cross colors, right.

You get the greens and the oranges and stuff.

It's probably like if you eat a meal a bunch of times, eventually kind of the flavor profile changes for you just from experiencing it over and over.

Yeah.

You hate meatloaf as a kid and then you Start to like meatloaf.

Yeah, got it.

Does it change based on, say, if you smoked weed or did mushrooms or got drunk, would the synesthesia kick in or.

That doesn't really matter.

It has no effect.

Like, would it be crazier if you were high in trying to play an instrument?

That's a good question, because I did read that some people do feel an increased sense when they're drunk or stressed, tired.

I've only noticed, like, when I'm drunk, it's easier just for, like, everything to wash over me because I'm not really thinking.

Thinking about it.

Right.

You know, I'm not really like, oh, what.

What's that?

It's just more like it just hits you and you can't really stop it.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not a doctor, but it.

It does seem like psychedelics sort of make synesthesia possible for everyone.

Well, yeah.

Right.

I.

I kind of agree.

It interconnects your senses and because shrooms.

You'Ll get that trip.

So I heard.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

So, yeah.

Your senses end up being sent to more than one location.

Yeah.

Plus the ones they're not supposed to be at.

Right.

And then you get all kinds of experiences that aren't actually their air quotes.

Have I played music on shrooms or acid?

I gotta think about that first.

Well, I mean, I feel like if you change.

If you use any substance, you're going to change your perception a little bit.

Right.

Like, have either.

Has anyone done psychedelics?

Like, here in the room?

It's okay.

Yes.

It's a safe space.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I've done mushrooms.

Okay.

So, I mean, you feel kind of swampy when you do shrooms.

Right.

You kind of feel like you're melding into the earth and you feel everything.

Breathe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like it was more of a.

Like, I never went to the point of, like, hallucinating.

Like, I didn't get the crazy visuals.

Maybe, like, mosaic, like, stained glass.

Yeah.

That's, like, the extent of anything.

Cause I never wanted to do it hardcore.

I'd say it was sharper, like, but just in general, that's with everything I was doing.

Like, it felt like I could walk straighter.

Yeah.

It felt like I could improvise better.

But I wouldn't say it changed the colors.

I would maybe say it just wires your brain differently for a minute, 10 hours.

I mean.

Is there anything that decreases it?

Stress.

Stress.

Okay.

Yeah.

Same with you, Bridget.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, 100%.

Like, the first time that, like, getting into different genres decreases It.

Because when I'm.

When I first started learning, you know, jazz or, you know, more of like the Indian raga scales, I wasn't really thinking of the colors and the, you know, stuff that I'm seeing to help me.

Just because I wasn't really yet aware of how the patterns of that music goes.

Because you have the.

Yeah, you have different patterns and different genres of music.

Like country is one thing, like, you know, whatever.

Blues is another.

But then when I got into jazz, I was like, I was just concentrating on where the music was going instead of what I was doing then because I was like, oh, man, they're.

They're doing so many different chords all over the place.

What.

What do I even do?

So I was just focusing on myself, panicking, trying to get something out that sounded coherent instead of the music.

Didn't feel as predictable, I guess, as what you were accustomed to, right?

Yeah.

But then once, you know, now I can properly improvise.

I mean, not as fancy as you can probably over jazz.

I got a question for you.

Yeah.

You mentioned, like, raags and like ragas and like Hindustani music.

How do you feel about quarter tones?

Oh, man, you know, those messed me up for.

Oh.

Like I've been lucky enough to kind of be part of like, bigger ensembles.

Okay.

So I've had kind of like more or less, kind of like one on one teaching from different people who have grown up with that music.

Yeah.

Okay.

To those of you who are wondering, quarter tones are notes in between the notes we have in Western scales.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when you hear more than, than 12 notes in a scale.

Yeah.

There's a number for how many possible notes there is.

I can't write.

It's like 188.

Yeah.

It's a whole new world.

So, okay, so like when I was in university, like I went to U of T, U of Tiers, U of Tears there.

There's a big push in the classical department for like atonal music.

So, like, more sciency.

Like, literally like throwing dice and then you get like a tone row and whatever numbers correlate to this and surrealism.

Anyways, it's like all very crunchy stuff.

Like, I liked that more because I was synesthetic.

Like, all of my colleagues looked at me like a bloody weirdo because they're like, what do you want to listen to this nonsense?

Like, because it's all.

It's really crunchy.

Right.

Like we're talking, actually.

Exactly.

But I kind of loved it because, like, you get all of these weird intervals like, back to back that you would never hear in, like, conventional music.

And it gave me something to, like, eat.

Yeah.

As a musician, like, do you like that kind of music?

A little bit.

Just because you're.

I love it.

Like, the different.

Like, the piano is just some way.

Because it's more like high pitch.

In a lot of us, there's, like, crazy runs, but then the tabla are more like water droplet.

Like.

Okay.

So it's just.

It's just so, like.

It's such a contrast.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's like.

I don't.

It's.

I know.

It's just so beautiful.

Cool.

There's so many different textures and, like, flavors.

It's kind of like, just.

It's crazy.

And I've been playing Tamil as well.

More like Southern Indian.

Okay.

Very cool.

And that's hard.

It's crazy.

But, like, once you kind of start getting it, it's like, okay, cool.

I have a foot in the door.

Let's learn more.

And I've found that in Goan music, like, Goa, India.

Okay.

They have so many, like, flamenco aspects because of all the travelers who came over from Spain and Portugal, so they went there.

So I start hearing, like, flamenco, like, this beautiful orange, like, burnt orange sounds in it all of a sudden.

And then, like, this flamenco guitar comes in while these, like, choruses of ladies are like.

That'S amazing.

And it was just, you know, it's just so beautiful.

And I didn't expect it because I've never heard that before in my life.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's just like having a new sensation or like, a new meal at a fancy restaurant.

You're like, I never would have thought to put those two flavors together.

But now that I'm having it.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

It's like putting, like, making basil ice cream.

Also highly recommend.

But it's.

You think it's weird at first, and then you try and you're like, yeah, I can get with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Always comes back to food.

Yeah.

Always.

And always.

For me, I could always.

I see.

Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I'm not a synesthete or whatever you describe yourself, but I've always seen a relationship or a correlation between food and music.

Just like, the way the ingredients are layered.

Music is layered as sounds not quite there as far as, like, it might just be something that I've put together just as, like, a comparison in my mind, more than, like, a sense overlap or sensory overlap.

I think that's a really good comparison.

I mean, if we get into, like, etymology of culture, I mean, every culture has food, every culture has music, and they both evolve side by side.

Sure.

The other one you can throw in is dance, right?

Yeah.

You're making music that no one can dance to.

Like, are you really making music?

And that's a bigger question.

It's called classical.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, my God.

But, you know, whoa, you're gonna get in a lot of trouble.

I can get in a lot of trouble right now for disembok.

But you can't dance to Bach, right?

Hey, I was in restaurants for 12 years before pandemic hit.

I'm a young punk, but I've been doing it for a long time.

I love food.

Like, food and music.

I.

I'm with you, man.

Like, it's all about layering things, especially from different cuisines.

Like, you look at Italian cuisine, it's more or less the rule of three, right.

Keeping it simple.

You've got one ingredient, main ingredient.

You got your secondary, and you got something that ties it together.

Yeah, that's.

There's a lot of music written like that.

Very true.

Like, a lot.

Right.

You got a chorus, you got a.

Like a verse, and you got a bridge.

Those are three ingredients with different flavors from instruments.

Yeah, you can read it so many different ways.

Yeah, I'm with you, man.

Like, hey, I mean, like, you're a multi instrumentalist.

You must.

Technically, I just do violin and viola, but I'm kind of cheating right now because I have a five string violin.

So it's like.

Oh, no, it's the same thing.

I just.

I don't think it's cheating.

But, like, I'm sure you've picked up a guitar.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's kind of like.

Do you find it's like adding spices to your spice rack?

Absolutely.

Right?

Yeah.

Right.

It's like you get different color tones out of it.

You get different timbres.

Yeah.

Actually, I wrote just so I wouldn't like, forget or like, freeze.

I wrote things down.

So just so I'm not just trying to think of stuff.

Because for me, it's not really the intervals.

It's more the timbre of the instrument.

So like, like violins and violin.

Violicello bass.

Like, wooden instruments are very, like, orangey but green.

Like, they're very like, like, like obviously, like, I don't know, it's not brown.

Which would be what those two colors are together.

I know, brown, but it's just like, you know.

But then, like, you have horns and things made of steel.

And those are more like orange and sharp and not necessarily like a pure orange.

Like a pure orange going on white at the top for, like, symbols.

But then, like, horns are just like, orange or like, really burnt orange, like dark orange.

When, like, the trombones do like.

They're crazy, like.

Yeah, yeah, thingies.

It's just crazy.

Let's see.

I have like, violin is orange, but more like yellowish.

Electric violin and electric instruments are kind of like, sharper.

They're more like red or dark orange.

Viola is orange with more green.

Cello is green with some orange at the top notes.

And bass is more like brown with purple.

Maroon colors.

You kind of got a gradient going on there.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, that's cool.

And how do they all fit together?

Do they, like, overlap in any way?

Are they stacked?

Is it a rainbow?

Oh, taste the rainbow.

Yeah.

I mean, it's kind of like if I'm listening to a piece of music, I'm going to notice, like, in my mind just again, through growing up, reading music, like, the top notes are kind of at the top.

So it's kind of like the lines of the violin and the flute and everything are more at the top.

So I kind of see the patterns of those colors up here.

Yeah.

And then I can just kind of like focus in on the mid tones or the lower colors.

Okay.

It's kind of like when you're reading a book, you have the whole page.

You can focus in on one sentence, but you won't get distracted by the sentence above or below it.

Gotcha.

Because you're just reading that.

That one line.

Yeah, one line.

Did we last time talk about Alice in Wonderland syndrome?

Yeah.

Do you have that?

I.

Wait, what is that?

What is that?

We'll establish in a second.

I'm remembering this.

You have it right?

Sometimes.

Only it's only sometimes.

If you had it all the time, you wouldn't be able to function.

Yeah, only if I'm eating kiwis and I'm allergic to kiwi fruit.

I'm allergic to kiwi fruit.

And I only know that because it would, like, make my mouse, like, fuzzy and tingly and itchy.

That's just kiwis.

That's just kiwis.

And then gotta peel them.

So I never really ate them because I'm like, oh, this is a shitty fruit.

Gross.

And then one day I was at work at a bakery and we had some, like, extra fruit left over, so I just, like, ate a slice of kiwi.

I was like, oh, maybe let's try this fruit again.

I'LL like it more as an adult.

And then I just felt my hands getting farther away from me.

And it was like.

Boy, it was.

It was like, oh, man.

Like.

So Alice in Wonderland syndrome.

It's.

There are.

There are a lot of.

It seems like people with synesthesia.

It seems to.

I don't know if you know this.

I'm not a doctor, so everything I say doesn't matter.

Don't write in, don't call.

But it.

It's not an extremely well studied area.

Right.

Because this, like Alice in Wonderland syndrome, which I'll explain in a second.

Like adhd, there are things that you experience inside.

Right?

Like we're talking about this, but there's no way for us to really demonstrate.

We may be lying too.

Right?

It's like it doesn't really matter.

But now there seems to be more evidence that some of these conditions are connected.

So Alice in Wonderland syndrome is something I've had my whole life and I didn't know that nobody else has it.

And I don't remember how, but I found the name of the condition.

Like, oh, that's very appropriate.

So your senses change for some reason.

It's accompanied with migraines and panic.

For me, it's the best thing ever.

Everything.

I didn't even know I'm supposed to be scared of it.

Everything becomes super far away.

Like you, where you are.

That's not normal.

You have that.

Yeah, it's totally normal.

There you go.

Synesthesia.

But see, it's somehow connected and we should figure out how.

So you're sitting there and suddenly the TV is like 40ft away.

It just kind of like pulls focus.

Like your feet are so much farther away from you.

But it's weird because you have full control.

Like, I can still reach for.

For anything and get it.

It's not like, you know, you're still normal, but it's almost like.

Well.

Or not, but it's almost.

I don't know, it's super weird.

And everything becomes like your TV is just like a thumbnail size at that point, but somehow you can still see everything because your eyes are still.

Yeah.

So everything just feels really right.

But I get the reverse sometimes too.

I'll feel like I'm really.

That's just somebody hugging you.

No, I know, but like, it's.

It's that perception of like.

I always get it when I get to go to bed.

Huh?

It's a really.

Nighttime is usually when that happens.

Like, I'm lying in bed and then like, I'm lying with my partner.

And my arms around her.

And then she feels like she's miles away.

Yes.

But I'm right there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then it'll stop.

You can touch her and do everything.

And it'll feel like I'm like, mega massive.

And it'll snap back and it's like, I.

I've never.

I didn't know I had to be scared of that.

Look.

Look it up.

Alice in Wonderland syndrome.

And it's called that because they think Lewis Carroll had that.

And that's where the idea for Alice in Wonderland came from.

I wonder if other people do that in film because they have it as well.

I just thought it was normal that.

That everything is going far and close, too.

Just far.

I always see that, like, that image of, like, TV ex.

Yeah.

That might be the inspiration for it, I think.

Yeah.

That's supposed to also show, like, anxiety in a movie, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So not sure how these conditions are.

Are related, but it does seem like something to do with senses and perception.

So things like add, adhd, synesthesia, tetrachromia, which I also have.

Wait, what's that?

Yeah, it's.

Well, again, I'm not a doctor, and the person, Medical person, who I have spoken to about this is a neuroscientist, neurologist.

I'm not quite sure which one he is in D.C.

and he did some tests on me, too.

It's the ability to separate colors.

Like, if I'm looking for something blue, everything else, in this case, literally not in my mind's eye, fades away, except for the blues.

Right.

So it's an ability to affect your perception that way.

And it's really problematic because if I'm looking for a ketchup bottle and it just happens to be so little ketchup in it that you can't see it.

That.

Yeah, I can see the bottle clearly, but I can't see the red for some reason.

I'll look right at it.

That explains that.

Just makes you, man, you a guy.

I just know.

But I.

But I have it with colors and shapes.

So, like, if we're in a field and you go like.

Like a football field, and you go.

I lost a blue key.

Right.

I can find it immediately.

We should try it if you want.

What about Where's Waldo?

And I.

Yeah, you must be wicked at Where's Waldo?

Yeah, I'm pretty good at Where's Waldo?

I'm pretty good at Where's Waldo?

But it's.

Yeah, you just tell me, stripe red and white and everything else goes away and that the more I'm learning about these things, and again, not a doctor, the more it seems like they're all interconnected.

And I'm sure that there are a lot of things you two should think about it.

Are there any things that I think are normal to do with my perception that maybe aren't?

And give it a goo, you know?

Yeah.

Get up.

Have.

Have you heard of the condition?

Again, I don't know if it's called.

It's a.

If it's a condition, it is Aphantasia.

No, please.

That's when you don't have a mind's eye.

So remember when I said earlier, think of a pink elephant.

Yeah, we can.

You know, I'm assuming everyone here can visually see that.

Yeah.

And, like, make it move around and, like, facial blindness.

Yeah.

Also related.

Yeah.

They have inner kind of blindness of their mind.

So they know concepts of what an elephant looks like.

They know concepts of what pink looks like.

They can't really put the two together to create an elephant in their mind.

Does your pink elephants on 2ft or 4ft?

Because when I see an elephant, I always see a pink elephant on two feet.

I think.

Yeah, I know where that.

I know where that comes from.

Yeah.

Was that.

Is that a gift?

Dumbo?

That is.

Yeah.

Cartoon.

He's, like, exhausted.

Yeah.

All the.

Yeah.

That weird, psychedelic, racist movie.

So when you're, like, zooming in on a color, does everything else go, like, gray?

Yeah.

What color?

It is devoid of color.

And, like, why.

Even though they're not gray, white, black are colors in our minds.

So it's.

They just go away.

It's hard to.

Easiest way to visualize it is gray, but it's not actually gray.

They just stop being there.

Oh, that's crazy.

It's fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're talking to one of the world's greatest I Spy with my little high players.

Yeah.

But according to Doriki, that explains a lot of why.

Yeah.

Where the hell is this?

And he'll be looking in a room for something, and it's like.

It's right there.

It's like, literally.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So next time, be like, orange.

I'll be like, ah, yeah.

Or.

Or the shape.

If you tell me the shape.

And unless the perspective is weird and I can't see the shape of the object, I can look for shapes, too.

Wow.

Are you good at flipping objects in your mind?

Yes.

Like, you can take this in your mind and, like, just rotate it.

All those.

Every IQ test or anything.

Like an IQ test.

Not that.

That Necessarily demonstrates intelligence.

Yeah.

All the ones with spatial awareness.

Yeah, they.

They seem to.

To work that way.

Wait, so can you.

Because I do this when I'm like lost.

If I walked like 20 minutes north of my house, I could just like, like picture myself from a bird's eye view and like zoom myself out to find where I am and then just like go back.

Yeah.

So I can like physically have like a Google Maps in my head or.

Are you just aware of like.

Let's say that I don't know, for whatever reason I need to be aware of something.

Let's say I'm traveling and there's only one bathroom in this city that isn't covered in shit.

Okay.

I am somewhere so that it would be.

It's almost like in a heads up display.

Like I'm always aware of where that one bathroom is.

Yeah.

Or person or shop or whatever.

It's like I could always point at it.

I don't think the north.

I think you're just spatially aware.

Spatially woke.

But like again, I know so many people.

Like my boyfriend one day I was like, oh, hey, we need to go to a place on the subway and he was just so like, I don't know, just like, oh, okay.

Are you sure?

Like are you sure we're going east to west?

And like in my mind I kind of like zoomed us out.

Yeah, it's very clear.

And I was like, oh, like no, we're going on the right way.

And then he's like, okay, well what do we do after that?

I'm like, well, you see on the map right there, you know, and then, you know, zoom yourself out.

And the thing is he has.

I don't know, I think he'd be okay with me telling.

He's.

Yeah, he'll be okay telling people this, but he has aphantasia.

So he has no mind's eye thing and I have hyper aware mind's eye.

Let me ask you this.

Do your parents have any related conditions?

Because I've been wondering if this is genetic because my dad was colorblind.

My dad was colorblind.

And my mom has facial blindness.

Yeah.

Like, she tells me she knows what my face looks like, but.

But she wouldn't be able to draw it.

Well, neither would I.

But for a lot of people I.

She's a popular lady and people are like, hey, how are you?

Like, hi, hello.

And then they walk away and she's like, I have no idea who that was.

I'm sure they know me.

What they seem to Know me.

Well, I don't know who that is.

Oh, no.

Unless you're wearing recognizable clothes or they come out of a recognizable car or voice.

Or voice.

Yeah.

But if it's just someone that changes.

If she's seen them enough times though, right?

Like when you come around, she knows it's you.

Yeah.

But you have to like, see someone a lot, I guess.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of it has to do with your haircut and stuff as well.

Yeah.

So I wonder if something about that.

In their case, I'd call them conditions.

Right.

If in any.

If that gets passed along.

Do your parents have anything weird like that?

I mean, my parents are both artists, so they have their own weird things.

I don't think my parents have this because I've talked to them about it both and they've, you know, like, I'm.

Yeah.

How about you, Blake?

Well, okay.

My mom's side of the family, there are no musicians, like straight up nothing.

They're all sports.

Like literally all wanted.

Like, some of them almost made it to like NHL, Olympic volleyball players, like that kind of deal.

Don't really give a shit about the arts.

I'll just say that.

And I didn't really know my dad growing up, but the only.

So my mom's like six months pregnant and then they're in some restaurant and then he just decides to sit down at a grand piano and starts whipping out classical music.

Oh, wow.

And she's like, you can play piano?

Well, dude, what the fuck?

And he's like, yeah, yeah.

I've been doing it since I was a kid, so maybe there's something on that side, but I kind of doubt it because.

Yeah.

Again, not a doctor.

I've just been wondering because there is.

I haven't known of a group of.

Other people, so I always thought it might have been something traumatic or stressful that triggered this.

And there was like something that you could all remember traumatically that also.

No, it's a physical thing in your brain.

I remember getting an MRI as a child because it was very problematic.

I was so problematic that they scanned my brain.

This is legit.

And they're just like, would you look at that?

Just things are connected differently.

It's a physical thing.

It's not just traumatic.

There's actual.

And the thing is, any sense could be connected to any other sense.

That's why they're so different.

Right.

Some people can taste words and it's.

Not a two way pathway.

It's only just.

It might be.

It's just a totally different connection depends on different people.

If you have that output and input connection going, like, if you have taste to vision, words and words to taste, then it'll work both ways.

Yeah.

I don't see colors and then hear music.

Yeah, some people do, and it must be.

Yeah, some people totally do.

And I.

Yeah, that's Lindsay, the piano player who was gonna come in.

Lindsey Clark.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I.

Like.

It's different.

It's very different.

Do you have any other conditions?

Like.

Sorry, not conditions.

Any other synesthesia manifestations?

So mine is, like, the colors are more of, like, a secondary thing.

But the main thing is that I taste shapes, taste of the individual.

Wait, I wrote this down, too, just so I wouldn't make something stupid.

So, like, if I was to play a note on the open A, that would be kind of like a zero because.

Or like an open shape because it's, like, ringing the.

The notes.

Ringing.

Okay, a bit more so, like, boo.

But if I play the first finger.

So it's a B, that's an L.

L shape.

An L shape.

Like in Tetris.

Like in my.

In my, like, throat.

Like in my mouth kind of deal.

But then, like, the higher.

Like, the more bass notes are kind of like in my chest almost, and then they go higher and they're more in, like, my teeth for the top notes.

That sounds so annoying.

So the other day, I was jamming with a friend, Donovan, on piano, and he was, like, just jamming away on piano, and he was doing a new song, and I was like, oh, sounds great.

Oh, this song has a lot of M's and L's in it, but sometimes the M's go higher and they're.

They're into higher notes.

M's are more like lower notes.

But then sometimes the.

The.

Do you feel, like, in your throat almost?

Yeah.

Huh.

Like, it's just.

Just right.

It's just right there.

So he was playing, like, more bass notes that had M's, but then he went to a higher register, and those M's kind of became more floaty, and they turned on their side and became threes.

So, like, threes turn into M's, twos turn into N's when they're down there.

And then L's just kind of, like, stretch out, like this way or this way if they're higher.

That's the thing.

If.

If there are two, let's say, groupings of perception in your brain, any of them could be connected, right?

It could be touch to smell.

It could be sound to taste.

I had.

Still do.

And I'm.

I haven't found anybody like that in person yet.

And maybe you can help me meet somebody to see if I'm insane.

For me, numbers have personalities.

Oh, I.

I know some.

One other person like that.

Oh, that's amazing.

Like, what kind of person?

So, like, when I was grumpy when I.

Seven's not grumpy, but like, that.

He's a nice guy.

Eight, not so much.

I.

As a kid, like, first grade, learning to do math.

For the first few years, I did it only based on, like, the personal interactions between numbers.

Are you good at math?

I was, and then I went into music.

I can catch up, but, like, I mean, like, let's say five plus six is 11.

There would be an actual almost, like, political, like, interaction between these two characters that results in eleven.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Huh.

And at first I was like, that's how this works.

And then it took.

First person I told to, I think, was my mom.

She's like, you are insane.

Yeah.

I was like, what?

No, I'm trying to share.

What was the first time, like, that you tried to tell people about some of the things that you were experiencing?

They're just like, matt's weird.

Yeah.

Because.

Well, with the adhd, like I said, I was so insane that they had to give me an mri.

People were like, okay, just let him tire himself out.

It's fine.

Here, look at this shiny box.

But it's.

And again, it's the kind of thing where I.

I can't show you and Blake can't show us colors.

You just have to take your word for it, which is, like, almost.

It almost makes the condition kind of boring in a way.

Yeah.

But these are real things that, like, Give me a number.

I'll tell you who they are.

4.

4 is a woman in her late 30s.

She's long walks on the park.

She's generally kind, meaning that they're very much separated by whether.

If they're being watched, whether they would do the right.

If they're not being watched, whether they would do the right thing or not.

You know what I mean?

So that's.

I.

I feel like that's the main attribute in someone's character.

Right, right.

And they're in my head, so I know.

Are there any two numbers that aren't, like, good neighbors?

Like, sure.

101, 102.

They just, like, hate each other.

7 and 6.

Yeah.

They're not great.

Is it?

Because 7, 8, 9, 5, 55 is a little bit of a shit.

Like, and it's.

And.

And the thing is, when it grows into bigger numbers, it's.

They somehow combine into a new character.

Yeah.

And those tend to say the same.

Sorry, you said when numbers are being watched.

No, what I mean is.

Hey, no, it's going to.

Quantum physics.

That's what I was gonna say.

It's like.

Hey, no, no, not like that.

I mean, like, string theory.

The number four.

Okay.

If.

If the number four, if you weren't watching them and they had the opportunity to do something bad or something, they would choose the good.

Oh, okay.

Nine, not so much.

So nine's a dick.

You can say that.

It's more complicated than that, but basically.

Okay, yeah.

Oh, that's cool.

You should go into quantum physics, man.

I.

Maybe.

No.

Hey.

But that's a lot more unpredictable.

These are, like, set in stone for me.

If anyone has the time to read Jazz of Physics.

Highly recommend.

The Jazz of Physics.

Highly recommend.

It's about quantum physics and how it relates to music.

And it's a little floofy, but it's an easy enough read.

Like, there's a lot trying to say about us.

Well, no, like, there's some physics equations, right?

You got to deal with some math, but it's not that bad.

It's good, and it's, like, fluffy enough that it's interesting.

I don't know, like, you talking about, like, numbers.

Like, you can see them and not see them and how they interact.

Like, I feel like that book's up your alley.

Honestly, I feel like we all got pretty lucky.

Except for your shapes in the throat thing.

Yeah, that sucks.

Yeah.

Suffer from this.

But again, like, it's really easy for me to jam along with, like, different music.

Like, if you put me in front of a band right now, then I am more comfortable listening to their sounds and just getting, like, all of the, you know, like, the.

The patterns.

Like, oh, okay, that's like mlml0ml cool.

And that's the chorus.

And then I know the verse is gonna be something different, but I probably know it because this is the pattern of rock, or this pattern is blues or hip hop.

So I just.

So essentially, you two get to be visual learners with sound.

Yeah, it's just so, so, so, so easy for me.

But when you put me in front of sheet music and it's like, all black and white, then I'm like.

Like, I almost get, like, roadblind.

Yeah.

Would you be able to make yourself sheet music of just strips of color if you had an accurate enough printer.

It's more like depends what you're playing.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.