Today we have our first guest: Dr. Justin Gash of Franklin College.

Justin is a professor in the math department, and also assistant Dean of the college. He occasionally teaches a class on Reasonable Faith, as well as guiding independent studies of that material.

Our conversation is about his own intellectual/spiritual journey, what he has learned from teaching these classes, and what he thinks about the arguments for God's existence.

In our next episode, Dr. Gash will walk us through his favorite argument for the existence of God: the moral argument.

Hi, this is Daniel.

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I'm Nathan.

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And we have a, guest here with us today.

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Yeah.

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First time excited for that.

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So we've got Dr.

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Justin gash with us today.

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Justin, how are you doing?

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I'm doing very well yourself.

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Good.

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Excited to get into the

content of today's episode.

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Yeah, me too.

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You know, this is the first

guest that we have had on.

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Yeah.

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So.

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I'm thrilled in, you should be honored.

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I am honored.

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And I feel a little bit of pressure.

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Uh, we'll see.

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Yeah.

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Well, no pressure, no pressure.

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I was wondering if you could begin

our time by sharing a little bit

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about who you are and what you do.

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And.

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how our interests have converged

to bring you here today.

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Sure.

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I am a professor of mathematics

at Franklin college.

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and because I work at Franklin college,

my wife and I moved to Franklin.

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In 2011 and.

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When we arrived in may of 2011, we,

needed a church, to make our home.

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And so we Google searched.

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Churches and Franklin.

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And the one that was closest to our

house was Franklin community church.

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And so we thought,

well, we'll start there.

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and when we arrived, we.

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Had a community that we were

able to plug into right away.

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It turned out that a third of my

department at Franklin college already

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intended Franklin community church.

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And that's how I got to know.

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Pastor Dan.

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Um, and Andrew, you got to know pastor

Dan and we met you at that time though.

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You were, much younger.

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Yeah.

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He was a kid man.

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We all were.

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You were in Cannes for a brief time.

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You were shorter than I was.

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I'll always treasure those moments.

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In terms of our conversation

today, I had a hip replacement.

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Surgery in 2016.

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pastor Daniel.

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came by the house to visit me.

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And.

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He gave me a book called reasonable faith.

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And he said, I think you will enjoy.

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Reading this.

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And so I, I read it, one of the silver

linings of recovering from a surgery.

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Is that.

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You really do have to take time out.

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Because you can't, you can't do things.

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So when someone offers you

a book, you can read it.

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And I was just blown away.

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I was, I was blown away, by

the apologetics arguments.

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they were stated in a way that.

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Appealed to me mathematically.

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Because of my vocation.

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I really enjoyed the systematic approach.

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to making arguments for the

existence of God and in the case

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of the book, reasonable faith.

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Also an argument for the historicity

of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

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And from there, I just had opportunities

to integrate that into my job.

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We do independent studies in

the mathematics and computing

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department at Franklin college.

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So I had.

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an opportunity to, have

an independent study.

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With a few students, one of

whom is you Nathan Beasley.

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Was that the, was that the first one?

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And that was the very first one.

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Wow.

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Yeah, I got good memories

of that with, and.

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Those conversations in my office were.

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Just amazing and, intellectually

fulfilling, but also

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spiritually meaningful.

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and then we developed a new first-year

seminar at Franklin college and

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faculty were invited to speak.

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To run a class on any topic they

thought would be interesting.

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So I started teaching.

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from.

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reasonable faith and a few other

texts as well from CS Lewis and.

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Timothy Keller.

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Yeah.

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. I think it's curious.

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And I think a lot of people

would probably like to know.

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All right.

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You're teaching a, not really a

religious college at all record.

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College is known for that.

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And you're teaching in the math department

because that's where your PhD is.

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And yet somehow you got approval to

teach a class focused on apologetics.

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Was that difficult?

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not terribly, no.

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the administration and my colleagues

wanted to make sure it wasn't a

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course that was proselytizing.

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which I appreciate.

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But we're a liberal arts college

and ultimately our mission, is To

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speak to all the ways that people

can apprehend and comprehend.

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Reality.

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and our mathematics computing department

has never been terribly one dimensional.

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We have faculty who teach the history

of the cold war through board games.

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we have, of Pixar course,

we had a colleague.

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Uh, what, uh, the math of Pixar.

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So The cartoon company

underneath the Disney umbrella.

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Interesting.

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Um, looking at the mathematics they use.

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Okay.

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So I think what was most critical is

that it was a topic that I was interested

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in that has intellectual value.

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and it was something that students,

when appeal to students who are coming

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in for their first semester of college.

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And one in something that

they were interested in.

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And God.

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So they got to pick which first

year seminar course they took.

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Yes.

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We offer somewhere between

15 and 17 and, and.

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And they.

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rank order their top three.

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And then they, they do get an option

of saying no way, not this course.

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So there's there's one course.

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They can just say, I don't care

what the numbers are looking like.

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You can't put me into this course.

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And it turned out there is a.

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What I suspected, which is that

there's a chunk of students.

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That are really interested to speak about.

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reasonable faith and the

intersection of faith and reason.

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Great.

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So I was going to ask a question

related to the demographics.

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Of course, all the students are

interested in reasonable faith.

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Did you find that most of them had

similar religious backgrounds or similar

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religious beliefs even in the course?

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Or was there diversity?

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this most recent.

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Time that I taught the course.

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It was.

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Fairly uniformly Christian.

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But the first time I taught the course.

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That was not the case.

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we had.

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Muslim student.

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We had.

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It's tough to nailed down

exactly what students' fates are

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because I kind of steered clear of

interrogating them in that regard.

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Um, do you believe.

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Yes, and then I will grade it.

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but I would say two to three

students who were atheist.

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and some other students who are agnostic.

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and then amongst the Christians, which was

still the largest proportion of the class.

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There were, Catholics and Protestants.

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There were students who might

be best described as not.

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terribly engaged with

their faith at the moment.

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Others that were very engaged

with their faith at that moment.

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And so there is a diversity.

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There is a diversity there.

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and I think what's interesting

about apologetics arguments.

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And we might get into this later.

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I might be jumping the gun here, but.

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Is that.

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Even for someone who's in a Mamie,

a member of a different worldview

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to use the language of your podcast.

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there are still really relevant.

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To understanding.

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what it is you believe and how

livable your belief system is.

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And how coherent it is all

really all three of them.

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And so.

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Even students who began the course, as.

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Atheist and ended the course is atheist.

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Still added so much to the course.

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And I think got a lot out of the course.

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And so it was a real,

it was a real pleasure.

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Awesome.

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Yeah.

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Sure digression.

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I believe you've had A promotion.

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Lately haven't you.

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I have, I am the assistant Dean.

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Of Franklin college.

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So I'm half administration, half faculty.

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So an academic waters.

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We would say that I joined the dark side.

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but I, enjoy the, the half and half

role because I like the problem solving

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and the administration, but ultimately.

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my vocation is, with students.

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I enjoy.

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I enjoy the classroom and

I enjoy being the students.

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Great.

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While we're on the digression of

the ins and outs of your jobs.

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What kinds of math classes do you teach?

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Yeah.

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So we are all generalists at.

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Franklin college.

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So essentially that means every

faculty member in the mathematics

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and computing department can teach.

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Any mathematics course.

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so I teach anything from our liberal

arts mathematics course that would

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typically be taking my non-majors.

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All the way up through the 300 level

theory courses for mathematics majors.

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So my particular area of interest is.

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Modern algebra.

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but in between LA 1 0 3 in modern

algebra, I also teach calculus one.

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And calculus two.

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And, our intro to computing course.

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And then when I can.

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Of course called theory of computation.

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which is more of a computer science.

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Course, but it's theoretical.

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So, it's heavy on the math.

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Gotcha.

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So you've taught the first

year seminar a couple of times.

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Yes I have.

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And then separately you teach

a class on reasonable faith.

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Yes.

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That really focuses

explicitly on the book.

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And by the way, I don't think

we've mentioned the author of

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that book is William Lane, Craig.

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Yes.

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So in my independent study.

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we spend time going through the

entire, text by William Lane,

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Craig called reasonable faith.

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It's a bit dense.

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That would have been difficult for

me to read through that whole thing.

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Assimilate that very well.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's difficult for.

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Me to assimilate it well, and I've tried

to assimilate it several times, but I'm

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teaching an independent study right now.

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Uh, which isn't actually

terribly independent in it.

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It has 11 students enrolled in it.

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So it's basically.

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Just an underground, extra

class at this point, it's like

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a full-size classroom, frankly.

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Call it.

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That's a respectable size class.

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but I still learn.

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Things that I hadn't

paid attention to before.

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great.

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So a couple of questions

came to my mind about this.

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Obviously your background and

your expertise is mathematics.

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That's what your PhD is.

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And that's what you've been teaching.

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So, how does that correlate with

this emphasis on apologetics?

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Where's the overlap there?

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That's a great question.

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Thank you.

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You're welcome.

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I usually don't get to ask the question.

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So.

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probably the place to start.

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and though it may sound trite is in

the discipline of critical thinking.

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Okay.

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So In a mathematics class.

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You are analyzing the

properties of objects.

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And so part of the, discipline.

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Is rigorously defining the objects and the

properties that you want to investigate.

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And then being very precise

when you do your investigations.

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you think critically about the

scope of a particular word, you

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know, is it appropriate for this.

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Context.

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have I proven all the

necessary components?

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in this proof.

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Or is my proof incomplete.

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Am I making.

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I want to say.

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Logical steps that are.

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I don't know what the philosophical

term would be, but appropriate.

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you know, non, non fallacious.

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And maybe the best example I can

think of that relates to this podcast.

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And perhaps the episode prior to this one

is with the column cosmological argument.

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So one of the premises there.

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Uh, is everything that begins to exist.

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Hasn't cause.

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That phrase begins to exist.

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Turns out to be.

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Critically important.

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And if you were to do a cursory review

of, critiques, online, if you went

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to YouTube, And looked at critiques

of the column, cosmological argument.

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A lot of the counterexamples presented.

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Would be things that don't begin to exist.

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You can find examples of.

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The numbers numbers is the exactly

the thing I was going to list.

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Um, they're like, well, you

know, someone will pause it.

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Well, these don't have a cause.

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But they never began to exist.

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Right.

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So they're outside the

scope of the premise.

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That kind of thinking is.

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probably the number one thing.

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that overlaps the

discipline of mathematics.

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and apologetics.

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Okay.

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So some of the preciseness and

exactness of the terminology.

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You have to have that

when you're talking about.

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Some of these arguments.

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In a very.

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Deep way.

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Yes, I would say so.

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And of course, when you look at the,

defense of some of the, arguments,

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mathematics comes in handy, right?

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so for the tele illogical argument,

probability theory is, Worthwhile.

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thing to be fluent in.

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and then of course there's just the.

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syllogisms of the arguments

themselves, though.

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My experience has been that.

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Though that's quite accessible.

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It's it's when you

interrogate each premise.

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That the mathematics major, um, or

that discipline that disposition.

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Okay.

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Analytical disposition comes in handy.

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Great.

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Okay.

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So you're talking about the

overlap in, mathematics and.

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Faith.

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at apologetics.

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And I remember taking discrete math

with you and we worked on proofs.

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Yes.

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And we try to logically prove certain.

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I don't know.

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What did we try to prove?

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Oh, properties about, even number

plus an even number is even, yeah.

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our.

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A rational number plus a

rational number is rational.

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, just remember the language

of proving being very common.

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And so, thinking about apologetics, do

you feel like it's possible to prove God's

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existence with some of these arguments?

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No.

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As the heretic.

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Why don't we bring this guy on?

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That completes my analysis.

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Next.

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No I'm with you.

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Yeah.

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I don't, I don't think so.

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and.

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I'm ultimately a lay person.

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So I want to make that clear

I'm on a podcast with, two

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people who actually have.

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Graduate degrees.

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and so I would yield.

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To your analysis.

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But I would say this.

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It would seem like in order to

prove the existence of God with

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an argument, you'd have to have.

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An airtight definition of.

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Whom God is.

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And I don't think we can fully capture.

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In words.

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Who and what.

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Got is If someone approached

me was saying that I've,

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proven the existence of God.

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I wouldn't be keen on asking.

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How did you capture.

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That term.

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When I think we can do is a more.

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modest approach, . I'm going

to answer this question from

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a Christian point of view.

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We can come to better

understand who God is.

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By thinking, using the

gifts he provides us.

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The ability to reason.

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the ability to, Formulate inferences

from our experience, we can

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better understand who God is.

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With apologetics arguments.

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and we can communicate.

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Some of the facets.

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Of who God is.

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With people of our own faith and from

people of different faiths and worldviews.

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I think that is doable.

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But I'm, Highly skeptical

of the ability to prove.

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God's existence and I'm also skeptical of.

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Whether it would be ultimately valuable.

377

If we could prove God's existence.

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Yeah.

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I'm with you on that, but why don't

you explain what you mean by that?

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Part.

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Of.

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The value of faith is the choice to trust.

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And I may be.

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I'm a listener to this podcast.

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So I may actually be, repeating something.

386

That I learned from the podcast.

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Are you going to plagiarize?

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I am.

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So I have you write your citations.

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And Chicago.

391

To read about writing in Chicago.

392

PA all the way.

393

That's my.

394

Well, you are the Dean.

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Very firm opinion on that.

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but it's, the choice of

trust that has all the value.

397

it's not a perfect analogy, but.

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I think of what's the other

most critical relationship.

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I have in my life, besides

the relationship with God and

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his relationship with my wife.

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What.

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Makes it magical and meaningful.

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Is that.

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We choose to build a life together

and we choose to trust one another.

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I can't.

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Prove.

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that.

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She's always going to have

my best interest at heart.

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But I trust that she does, and

she trusts me in the same way.

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And I, think that you lose that

opportunity for trust when you have.

411

Knowledge.

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No, I don't trust that integration works.

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I know calculus works.

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So that would be my attempt.

415

Okay.

416

Do you feel like, um, good stuff?

417

Yeah.

418

That's good stuff.

419

Do you think that studying apologetics?

420

Makes you have to trust less

because you have some of these.

421

arguments for the existence

of God that are reasonable.

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And helpful.

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That is an awesome question.

424

And I have not thought

about that question.

425

I'm better than my question though.

426

Right?

427

AMRI one's questions are good.

428

I'm sorry, go ahead.

429

No, I that's.

430

That's such a great question.

431

Or even for you personally, I mean, do

you feel like apologetics has been helpful

432

for your faith or detrimental because.

433

Faith when you can see

is no longer phase.

434

Yeah, I think there's.

435

still so much.

436

So many dimensions of.

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God.

438

Certainly the Christian God.

439

There's there's so many

dimensions beyond what.

440

The apologetics arguments

that I'm familiar with.

441

tackle.

442

That I don't feel like it has.

443

Lessen my faith.

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I think it has strengthened

my faith in the sense that.

445

I feel like I am a deeper connection.

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With God.

447

I also think it's energizing.

448

it's.

449

an energizing thing.

450

To think about.

451

The interplay between God's creation.

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and how I fit into it.

453

So for example, the kilohm

cosmological argument.

454

Paints the picture of not just some,

not just a being in God that has.

455

Immense power.

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But it speaks to a creator.

457

Who has.

458

willed existence?

459

To be.

460

And that allows me to infer.

461

That.

462

Hey, I'm a part of creation as well.

463

This God must really.

464

Love me.

465

And I must have some sort of part to play.

466

Does that make sense?

467

So it builds the faith in that way.

468

What it doesn't tell me is

what the heck my part exactly

469

is I have to live that out.

470

and it certainly doesn't tell me.

471

With any kind of precision.

472

Y and I'm Power.

473

Would choose to create

a universe and that.

474

I would be in it and

that you would be in it.

475

And all those kinds of things.

476

So we just talked about that.

477

Yeah.

478

So it only takes you so far.

479

It only takes us so far.

480

I would liken it to use

some jargon from education.

481

I think apologetics is

about a growth mindset.

482

And I actually did not

think of that ahead of time.

483

So I'm kind of going on a.

484

Well, let's see if it works out good.

485

Go ahead.

486

I'll give it a shot, but When we

talk to our students about what we

487

want in the context of college, we

want them to have a growth mindset.

488

We want them.

489

Seeking.

490

To incorporate new information and

new experiences that help them home.

491

They're understanding.

492

Of the world around them.

493

And that process never ends.

494

if you're a lifelong learner

and you're always doing that.

495

and I see apologetics as a springboard

to a great part of the growth mindset.

496

That.

497

one has in a relationship that's building.

498

with God and.

499

The idea is that your relationship

with God is continually growing.

500

Yeah.

501

and I think apologetics

have a role to play in that.

502

One of the things Nathan

I've talked about.

503

In one of the previous episodes.

504

I don't remember which one.

505

But fairly early, we talked

about faith and doubt.

506

And.

507

We borrowed a seven.

508

numbers system.

509

Of certainty.

510

So the number seven you're absolutely

certain God is as, there's not an

511

intellectual doubt in your mind.

512

If you're at a one.

513

You absolutely know

that God does not exist.

514

It's not even a plausible scenario.

515

And.

516

number six would be.

517

Yeah, you're fairly

certain that God exists.

518

There's room for ambiguity

and doubt sometimes.

519

But, you know, it's, it's

a constant belief of yours.

520

Bye.

521

It would be a little bit less than

that forward to be completely neutral.

522

Three would be okay.

523

I don't think God exists,

but I'm really open to it.

524

And two would be probably not.

525

I don't think there's a God.

526

I'm not saying it's not possible.

527

And one of the things we talked about.

528

Or at least I think we did.

529

Is that.

530

Apologetics, can help you.

531

Get further up the scale or at

least not bottom out on the scale.

532

' cause I think if you're at a one

or two, you're going to have a

533

very hard time having any sort.

534

Of religious faith.

535

Whereas someone can be at

a, maybe a four or five.

536

And still have a very vibrant faith.

537

They're just believing in spite

of intellectual doubts, it's more

538

thing than an intellectual thing.

539

All that to say, have you

seen that in your own life

540

or the life of your students?

541

That dynamic?

542

In my life.

543

The answer is yes.

544

I have seen that.

545

I would say that for.

546

Mantra my life, I probably

would have been amount of 4.5.

547

You have to allow me to use decimals.

548

Math guys like specific, you know, I.

549

He's just using it to the 10th decimal.

550

Hundreds.

551

That's right.

552

I was really it's 1.5 PI is really why.

553

Um, okay.

554

So you're at a 4.5, but

I think in the last.

555

In the last decade.

556

Okay.

557

That has increased to about a 5.5.

558

Okay.

559

and so you see that incremental

increase, but it's still modest.

560

I do not.

561

Think I'm anywhere near.

562

Seven.

563

Gotcha.

564

Um,

565

I have seen that kind of

growth with my students.

566

but usually what I'm going

for in the classroom.

567

Is to convince.

568

Students.

569

That belief in God.

570

Is reasonable.

571

I honestly also seek to convince students

that not believing in God is reasonable.

572

So I want, to make sure that students.

573

Uh, how do I want to say.

574

Maybe make sure is either a poor

phrasing or a shortcoming of

575

mine pedagogically, but I am wary

of one in seven on that scale.

576

it's hard to grow.

577

Grow.

578

If you're in those spots.

579

Okay.

580

and in, my experience, I think students.

581

Who are believers in a Christian

or, Islam or Jewish worldview?

582

Do get something out of the

critiques of the apologetics

583

arguments they typically buy into.

584

And subscribed to the apologetics

arguments, but it matters that they

585

can see where doubt might arise.

586

And for, those of an atheist worldview,

or I think the worldview you're

587

using is philosophical naturalism.

588

Which would adequately describe?

589

I think all of the students I've

had in my class who were atheist.

590

I've seen the growth in them

accepting that a reasonable person

591

could accept the premises of these

arguments that, they're reasonable.

592

Okay.

593

I liked that you said you're

wary of one and seven.

594

I feel like personally.

595

it's a question of intellectual honesty.

596

When you're talking about God,

who, as you mentioned before, is

597

it's hard to really specifically

define what that is or who that is.

598

it w it would be extremely hard.

599

I think, an intellectually

dishonest for somebody to suggest

600

that they have absolute certainty.

601

The seven, I think the seven would be.

602

And I think the seven would

be particularly difficult

603

for somebody to ascribe, to.

604

Or at least, they haven't heard

some of the counter-arguments

605

or, are maybe Really young.

606

I don't want to be insulting,

but you know what I mean?

607

I'm going to push back on

that a little bit, so, okay.

608

Well,

609

You have to remember that.

610

There are different

ways of knowing things.

611

And a lot of people have

such direct experience.

612

With.

613

God or some sort of supernatural thing.

614

In various ways that to them, it is.

615

Uh, kind of self, a testing knowledge.

616

They have a.

617

Almost a direct, immediate experience.

618

They have a story.

619

And people are wired different ways.

620

So maybe for some of them.

621

The could be a seven, not because

they've examined all the arguments.

622

And I've come to that place.

623

But it's more of an intuitive thing.

624

Yeah, but I could be wrong.

625

That's actually, really good pushback.

626

I think I'm thinking in, the realm of,

if you've looked at some arguments,

627

maybe you're more analytically minded.

628

I think it would be hard.

629

To be able to prove God's existence

from, from one of these arguments.

630

So.

631

That's a good point.

632

And well, well taken.

633

And it does speak to the question of what

we mean when we talk about knowledge.

634

Because without question, when I answered

that last question, Without question.

635

Just Rowan's question.

636

Anyway.

637

Um, when I answered that last

question, I was thinking about

638

my role in the classroom.

639

Right.

640

And in that sense, The discourse

is primarily intellectual, right?

641

Yeah.

642

but.

643

I would certainly say.

644

Earlier I made a comment about how.

645

I don't know, intellectually that my

wife has my best interest in heart.

646

But if you asked me with a different

sense of know, like, do I know.

647

Oh, I know, I know a hundred

percent that she's got.

648

Because of my experience in.

649

The marriage relationship.

650

I know I have complete confidence in that.

651

So.

652

Ironing out what, knowledge

we're talking about.

653

or one component.

654

Yeah, well, this is where I yield to.

655

People who have actually

had philosophy courses.

656

Well, there's a really beautiful overlap

here because we're talking about how

657

helpful apologetics can be in philosophy

can be to help support the faith.

658

But and the Christian perspective,

not about knowledge about God.

659

It is about intimate.

660

Knowledge with God,

just like you described.

661

In your relationship with your spouse?

662

So apologetics.

663

I do help just like knowing about

my wife can help me, but knowing

664

things, knowing facts about

her is not, it's not the point.

665

Let me ask you, this is we're

still talking about the classroom.

666

And you've gone through

this book with them.

667

It's a substantive book.

668

It's a little bit challenging.

669

Have you found that there are

some sections though, that the

670

students really resonate with.

671

And then part B of that.

672

Are there some that really

resonate with you more than others?

673

Yes.

674

And he S okay.

675

I'll start with part a.

676

, I wouldn't say the tele

illogical argument.

677

Well just summarize that

because not everyone meets.

678

Yeah, absolutely.

679

So.

680

the premises of the tele

illogical argument are.

681

The universe.

682

is either due to necessity.

683

A chance.

684

Or design.

685

The second premise would be in is

not due to chance or necessity.

686

So the conclusion would be

that it is due to design.

687

Nice little soldiers.

688

Y.

689

Thank you.

690

I did not invent that syllogism.

691

And so I, they, that

appeals very, very strongly.

692

And I think it's because, we

live in the 21st century and, our

693

scientific explanations of not

only our world, but our universe.

694

weigh heavily on students.

695

And.

696

Unlike the content from several

other of the, traditional or

697

mainstream apologetic arguments.

698

They've had 12 years of education.

699

It's a 13, if you include kindergarten.

700

talking about science.

701

So in the tele illogical argument, The

scientific literature and analysis.

702

Really works for them.

703

and They deeply question

whether if by chance.

704

Based on the scientific descriptions

in the material universe.

705

If the universe would, spring into

existence and would actually still exist.

706

And they see no reason to

think it's necessary that the.

707

universe exists.

708

So they find the argument

compelling then in is from design.

709

And probably the second most is

the Calum cosmological argument.

710

Okay.

711

And we talked about that in our

last episode, if people are so

712

interested in going deeper, Yes.

713

.

So for your students, either the teleological argument or the

714

Columbia cosmological argument.

715

And then how about for yourself?

716

The, moral argument would be my favorite.

717

Okay.

718

And I know we've got some

discussion about that.

719

You're going to kind of walk

us through a little bit.

720

From your perspective and from

teaching that, We're already

721

a half hour into this episode.

722

Why don't we.

723

Call it a day for this episode.

724

And then come back in the next episode.

725

We'll talk more about that.

726

We'll let you explain why this

argument speaks to you so much.

727

Maybe you develop it a little bit here.

728

Some.

729

Counter-arguments and then

how you might respond to that.

730

Does that sound good?

731

That sounds like a plan.

732

All right.

733

So for this episode, I just

want to thank you again.

734

This has been really fun.

735

It's fun for me to be on the asking side.

736

So thank you again, and we'll

catch you here at the next episode.