Shownotes
When Rachel Seid left her nonprofit job to pursue web design, she didn’t know that what began as a scrappy side project would turn into a business that allows her to be fully herself — in her words: loud, passionate, and unwilling to settle for mediocrity. Her early days were filled with $800 websites, cobbled-together code, and the dizzying task of managing every platform under the sun. But through trial, error, and a knack for reading how people actually think and behave, she found her zone of genius: building personality-packed Squarespace sites that don’t just look good, but actually work.
What sets Rachel apart isn’t just her technical skill. It’s the way she weaves adaptability, storytelling, and human psychology into every stage of her business. From managing the tension between feast-and-famine cycles to designing a sales process that makes prospects feel seen before they even sign, Rachel has built a company rooted in freedom and fun — two things she refuses to compromise on. In this episode, she opens up about how she’s reshaped her pricing, her sales strategy, and her confidence, all while proving that sustainability in business comes down to one thing: flexibility.
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
⭐️ Love this episode? We'd GREATLY appreciate a 5-star review! ⭐️
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
What’s inside this episode
- The disconnect Rachel noticed between “cool” brands and her nonprofit events, and what it revealed about marketing strategy
- The unusual thing that gave Rachel a sharper edge in web design than a traditional marketing degree ever could
- The messy first years of taking “any project under the sun” and the moment she realized it wasn’t sustainable
- The accidental $8,700 project that taught her to expand her perception of what clients were willing to pay
- How motherhood forced a dramatic overnight price increase — and how she was able to support selling at such higher rates
- The difference between selling $800 and $3,600 websites and $10,000+ websites — and how she changed her entire sales process to match
- Why Rachel starts every call with a visual presentation — and how customizing slides with tiny personal details helps her close
- The four “alities” Rachel uses to design sites that actually convert — that you can use to get your site to convert better
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Connect with Adriane and Visionaries!
- Let's be friends on the 'gram – @visionariesonline or @adrianegalea
- Connect on Linkedin – with Adriane or Visionaries
- Visit us on the web at visionaries.co
- Come network with us in The Visionaries Collective
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Rachel Seid is a Squarespace web designer and Head Honcho at Bright Seid Design. She is obsessed with creating beautiful, functional websites that are easy for business owners and small teams to manage themselves. Her web design process establishes genuine personal connections with her clients that enable her to build personality-packed websites that feel as authentic as they do professional. Today she helps solopreneurs, small businesses, and non-profits build simple, easy-to-use websites that become powerful marketing tools to attract and convert dream clients.
Connect with Rachel:
Transcripts
When Rachel's side first started selling websites, she was only charging $800, which is relatively normal and probably fair given it was the very start of her business. But fast forward to today and Rachel is consistently selling packages in the eight to $10,000 range. And beyond. Um, in fact, she's recently sold packages that were much, much, much larger than that.
But how is the question? So part of what allowed her to increase her rates more than 10 x in reality was partly because. You know, she's gotten better as a designer, but it's also the way she rebuilt her sales process. How she was able to position her skillset and how she had to just kind of get scrappy to figure it out.
Because something you're gonna hear her say is that after she had her first baby, she realized she just didn't really have a choice but to raise her rates so that it would be sustainable for her family. So I think that this is gonna be a really, really valuable episode for anyone who has wondered how you might be able to increase your pricing, but also it's got an undercurrent of what actually makes really, really good marketing.
This was an episode. Where it's just to be honest, where I almost wanted to go back through and have like little cut-ins to be like, okay, hang on. Like Rachel was just talking about this thing and this is why this matters so much. And I didn't do it because honestly, like when I listen to podcast episodes like that, I find it to be actually really aggravating.
Hmm. Just be honest. But there are so many little nuggets that get dropped that that you are going to be able to take away around how you can actually market better yourself. So. I will leave it at that. Let's just keep going and let's get to it.
Hi Rachel. I'm so excited to chat with you today I feel like I should preface this. Rachel and I work together we have for a year and a half, two Almo, no, two years. It's been two, two years In July.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, two years in July. so as we get into this, I was just saying like, I already am so excited to know more about how everything started for you, I'm ex so I'm excited to have this little conversation.
Sounds great. I can't wait. I'm so excited to be here.
A better introduction for you. Would you like to tell the people who you are and what you do.
Yeah, of course. Um, so my name is Rachel Seid. I'm a Squarespace web designer. I build personality packed websites on Squarespace for any number of, uh, different people or businesses or organizations. I work with everyone across the board, like I'm industry agnostic, I like to say.
So I really just help anyone who either has or wants a Squarespace website and is ready to show their actual personality on that website. That's my jam.
Amazing. So I'm going back to, I don't know, because I think you've listened to my podcast, so you might know that I asked this question. I'm going back to a question I asked for a really long time as the, as the kicker kickoff question what does sustainability in business mean to you?
Um, I think that in order for me personally, like I need my business. My, I am the business, so I don't have a team. Um, and if. That's gonna remain sustainable. Like I need to be able to manage what comes up and sort of like be flexible and adaptable to be able to meet whatever challenges come my way. And also like, have the ability to say no when the time's not right for things that are too big.
Um, I get a lot of shiny object syndrome in my business. I get excited and then chase an idea that like someone else said to me. And then in reality, like that's not, that's not sustainable because uh, that's not how you grow. Um, you gotta stay, you gotta stay focused on what you're trying to do. And so I think for me, sustainability is really about that adaptability and flexibility.
I like that.
Yeah. For the long, that's how you sustain, that's how I sustain this business for the long haul, is maintaining those things first and foremost.
Adaptability and flexibility. I like it. Um, so let's rewind. I don't know. I, I, this is where I'm like, I'm excited to talk about this. I have no idea. How did you get started your business? Like what brought you into Squarespace web design?
Yeah, I mean, what a story. Um, okay, so I'm trained as a web designer. Um, that's really how this happened. So I.
like in co you went to college for it
I went,
whatever you would say.
oh, we should go back even further then. Um, no, I did not train for it. I, I did a certification, um, in, when I was working like full-time. So lemme go back to the beginning. I, uh, went to college.
I majored in religion and so I learned how people think and how they process information and how their culture affects that and how the way that they were raised and the place that they were raised and the like, really like broad structure of the society in which they were raised helps them process and think through information and decisions that they make moving forward.
n I, uh, graduated in, um, in:I cannot settle for like mediocrity or people not like, not like keeping up with me. Like I just repeatedly am noticing that I have noticed this pattern, which is really what led me to start a business in the first place. Um, but I was hired, I was working full-time for a small, um, a small nonprofit. And then, uh, I actually then took like a lateral move working at a different nonprofit, doing very similar work.
And then while I was there, I sort of like discovered digital marketing. I was hosting events, I was in charge of hosting and then marketing the events. And in doing that, I was like, what's going on? That, like, there's this huge disconnect between the people that I'm meeting, like in my own life and the people who are attending my work events.
And in, in trying to solve that problem, being like, what's, what's attracting the, these the wrong type of people? Um, I learned about like brands. I learned about brands and digital marketing and how like, I just started paying attention, you know, like Nike and Lululemon were attracting all these cool people that I was meeting out in my personal life.
And then like the events that I was putting together that looked, I now see like fuddy duddy. Were attracting like a different audience. And, and that audience was completely incorrect. Um, because in case you're wondering, so this was an organization that hosts events for, uh, people in their twenties and thirties in Philadelphia.
And so. We used to get weekly phone calls from like parents and grandparents of people who were in their twenties and thirties being like, I need you to recruit my son. I need you to recruit my grandson. And I was like, something's not, something's not working. Because like if your grandson, first of all like, it doesn't matter how cool I am, like, your grandson is not coming, uh, to my event because you told him to come.
So like, we can't win. Um, but anyway, I basically started doing a whole bunch of research and then, uh, ultimately the organization listened to my complaints and decided to launch a strategic plan process that included a rebrand and a website redesign. And I was like the, I basically had an apprenticeship with the, um, consulting firm that they hired.
So I was like, I had my hands in the pot of like actually designing the brand, actually designing the assets of the website, putting all the pieces together, doing the market research, doing all the focus group testing, like I just did all of that. So that was really cool. And then at the same time, I was also getting a web design certification through U Arts, which is now closed, but was a school in Philadelphia that had like a web design program.
know University of the Arts
They just closed. Um,
musical theater program.
yeah, they had a lot of cool stuff. It was like a real loss for the arts, but they had a big win Also, we'll talk about it later, but basically this like very cool company that's repurposing old buildings for artists and makers. They, um, were able to get access to one of the old new arts buildings, so they're gonna turn it into this like maker's studio space that's, um, like a second version of a space that they already have affiliate That's super popular.
So I'm excited for what's to come, but yeah, it was a bummer about you arts. But anyway. I was taking class at U Arts, and then I also, because I was still working full-time, and I, uh, you know, I'm a real go-getter, as you can tell. I did an internship with a solopreneur who I knew, a mentor of mine, who ran her own marketing firm.
And so I was basically like learning from her about marketing strategy and digital marketing strategy specifically about events. And then I, I basically, once that whole website for the, the new comp, the new organization, the organization launched a new website, a new brand, and I stayed on for a year to like execute their marketing strategy.
And basically after all of that time, I was like, all right, well, I can't learn anymore here. I've done the most I can do. Um, and so that's when I started my own business. And, um, I had a Squarespace client, sort of like on the side that like for much of the happened to like meet someone out in the world, she needed some help.
We like, you know, we, we kicked, we hit it off. I was working for her sort of man, like managing a blog. And then, um, when I left my job, started my business, she was my first anchor client, and I just took on a whole bunch of other work. When I first started the business, I was like, I will take any digital marketing project, anything at all.
Um, and then over the years I've honed that, um, you know, for the first two years I sort of did any digital marketing and then I was like, all right, no wait. Squarespace is the thing I'm best at, the thing I can make the most money at, and the thing I'm fastest at. So I pivoted into Squarespace and yeah, I've been doing it ever since.
That's, a cool background story.
Who knew?
what? What happened with the, did the events wind up becoming well attended?
Yes. I forgot to tell you the most exciting part, which is that after we launched the new brand, I never heard from a mother or grandmother ever again on the phone, ever again. We went from having like one a week. One phone call a week from like the wrong audience member to having zero phone calls a week and a complete, like a complete 180.
And who was showing up to our events? Like it was, it was not the same people that I was meeting out, but it was like this a people who would have gotten along. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
like the Right, we did it. Right. So
Yeah.
it was really exciting.
Do you, I actually wanna talk about that. Do you watch Mad Men
No,
watched Men? Men,
no.
there's um. Elizabeth Moss has a character on there named Peggy, and she, her family's very Catholic and she gets recruited into like, they're gonna do this CYO dance, which is, I should know this like Catholic youth organization, I think And she like brings the flyers and presents it like there're any, like there are any client that Sterling Cooper would have very fancy, the old women on the, like the council are like, a little fresh, like you need to keep a little room for the Holy Spirit on that flyer with the two people dancing.
And she's like, this is the only way you're gonna get your target market to show up guys. And they were like, Hmm, we think we need to revisit this. And that's what your story reminded me of was that delightful moment in Men where she was like, if you want these people, this is not who you're attracting.
Yes, 100%. It was exactly, it was exactly that same thing. Um, it was the same, like we were just, uh, we were using like 20 year olds marketing strategies,
Yeah,
and it didn't, it wasn't con like, it wasn't connecting, it was connecting with the people who were in their fifties and sixties, which is about right.
so I'm curious, so like what did you realize, I mean obviously you realized because you were having the wrong people call you, but to get it to turn around and like, I'm also curious just because like a religion but sort of sounds like sociology or some type of anthropology, like sort of in there somewhere. Like did that affect how you knew what to do with this? Like not actually having a marketing and background, or not having a background in marketing?
I think I've just always been really, I've always been really aware of how people think and like how. Like how cultures are shaped. And, and also like a big piece of the story that I didn't mention is that this was a Jewish organization. So we're hosting events for people, Jewish people in their twenties and thirties, which was at the time I was the peer group that we were attracting.
Right. And I had had like a lifetime of experience working, working and volunteering in the Jewish community in the event space and like doing some communications work related to that. Um, so like I didn't have a marketing background, but I knew enough about how my peer group communicated that I knew that what we were doing was outdated.
he event and I was like, it's: e a fuddy duddy postcard from:Um, and, and it was just like a, for me, I just continuously noticed this disconnect where I was like, that's not how me and my peers, like, that's just not how we communicate anymore. But the people were saying we had to do it. Like other people were saying, you have to do it this way. And it wasn't.
Eventually I like sort of got my wits about me and was like, this is actually not working. Um, and here's why. And, and I was mostly the thing that I was able to pull together was that. That comparison, like really got them when I was like, these people are expecting like what they see on Lululemon's website and we're showing them like this thing that's not mobile responsive and is like really lame and has like not a single picture of a human being.
It's just like little icons. Um, it was like, not like, I was like, of course this isn't working. Like, like how many words are here? There's no visual communication happening. So I think that like my, my, my, like what I learned in college taught me how people communicate and how, how to better express the idea that you're trying to express.
But I don't know, it's like I, it is like the underlying thing is that like culture, society is shaped by religion. Even Americans, like American society is shaped by religion. So like for me to be able to like. I was better able to communicate to the board members at this organization because I had this background that taught me how to communicate to them.
But I also am Jewish and they were, they're Jewish. And I understood that the history and cultural, like the history of the Jewish people in North America in the last like 40 years, like I was able to see what's going on in a way that like, I was very tapped into like what like the professional Jewish community was discussing.
So I just, like all these things were happening sort of at the same time, it was like a perfect storm of me getting the knowledge that I needed and the like tools to communicate it to the right people.
You had to zhuzh it a little bit.
Had to zhuzh it. You gotta make it, you gotta like, I had to figure out how to. Explain it to them. And I also had, I was very lucky to have a couple of like, great mentors.
Um, like the woman who I interned with was, is like closer to my age. She was obviously more experienced than me, a little bit older than me. But like she, she was even more equipped to be able to sort of speak to the older audience and explain to them what was happening. Especially because she runs a marketing firm.
So like she knew what was, like, she pretty quickly was like, this is the problem that this organization. Um, so anyway, that was how, I mean, I was, I was very lucky to have some great mentors. Also, one of my colleagues at the organization was on board right from the start. Also, she had a little more experience than me, was a little older than me, was like everything, like, sort of like, it was, it really rough, like the, all the stars aligned and it worked out.
I think if I was anywhere else, that would not have happened.
Interesting.
Yeah.
always trying to find like a better way to define things or to make it easier to communicate what it is and like with marketing and selling, right? Like I've never taken a marketing class, I've never had a marketing internship. I've never done anything like that. And I think the way that I would currently define it, and I think this makes sense from what you're saying, is that selling at its core is being able to understand what someone wants and marketing is how to put feeling behind it.
Yes, and I think that I, I am even now, again, like almost 10 years after that experience, I am still learning how to do those things like in a business sense, if that makes sense. I think I've always been a natural, like I was, I was pitching these events before we did all this digital marketing work, or while it was in progress, you know, it took like two years, like as it was all coming together, I was still promoting and pitching these events, and I've always been, you know.
They hired me because I have a bubbly personality. They were like, you, you little lady, you, you deserve to be running these events. But what I think people have always missed when they see the bubbly personality is that like, what's actually happening is like, I'm a great saleswoman. I've just never put actual tactics behind it until, you know, 10 years later in my career, now I'm running a business.
I have to put tactics behind it. But at the time I was saying like, oh, you're looking for, you're looking for a cool, you know, group of young women who are like smart and with it, well, they're all at my events. Why don't you like, they're all my friends. They're all there. Why don't you come check it out? It was like how I was able to get people in the door.
Um, but like that worked really well. The website was doing nothing for us or inviting them to the Facebook event. Like the Facebook events were, they looked archaic. Like they had no business being on Facebook. They were so old school.
Oh no.
Yeah.
Okay. So I wanna transition from, um, this into like you actually selling your own website packages, because I know where you are now.
yeah,
can I say you just closed your largest package of your life. Can we
yeah, yeah. We can say that.
Amazing.
Yeah,
Um, where did you, where did you start? Like can we talk about the general evolution
Oh, yeah.
to like where you're at now?
'cause I know your packages have changed drastically
Oh my God, yes.
couple years.
Yes. When I first started out, I would like build someone a new website, and I was like, all right. Yeah, like, how about $800? I'll like build you this website and. To be fair, they were getting $800 worth of work. Like, it looked really pretty, but it didn't function properly. It didn't do what they needed.
It like, sort of did what they needed, like good enough. But I couldn't solve this one problem and I had to like ask my friend who the developer to help me out. And then I, oh my gosh. I was, ended up like spending all this time dealing with him 'cause he was, wanted it to be perfect. 'cause he developers, so his brain works differently than mine.
Um, not that I don't want my work to be perfect, but I'm not whatever. If, if you're the difference between a designer and a developer, that's a different story.
different thing.
Yeah. So, um, yeah. I mean, I was, I was doing, I was, I don't even remember my, like first Squarespace package. My first Squarespace package happened after I was like just doing whatever anyone wanted for so long.
Um. Eventually I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna make, I pivoted to the two week model where you build a Squarespace website in two weeks. Um, I charged $1,800 for that. Again, that was like when I first,
big jump
well, that, those, the 800 800 was the original. Yeah. And then like over a year or two, it evolved a little bit more.
Actually, I'll tell you what happened is I became, uh, I had like a business friend who I was working, I whatever. I rented their office space and, um, he ran at the time a bigger web design firm than what I was doing. Still a small shop, but you know, he had a team and, um. They got a client come in for an $8,700 website and he was like, this is too small for my team.
But he's like, I teed it up for you. Like it's ready. He's like, I'm gonna tell them, I'm gonna tell them, this is not for me, but like, I have this, I have someone who can do the website for you. Um, she's happy with this. 8,700 is is great. Like, you know, I, I, he's like, I organized, I did all the hard part, you just like go in there and, and sell ' em.
And I was like, oh great. So obviously home run. So that, that when I, that was like the end, that was my last, like before that was my last WordPress website, let's say. Um, and I didn't pitch it. I didn't pitch it myself. Someone else pitched it to me. Yeah. And that $800 website I was just talking about was also WordPress.
So I was doing. I was doing WordPress, I was working in any platform, like I was doing WordPress websites, I was doing Wix. I had a couple client, I had like a client on Weebly. I had this anchor client on Squarespace, and I was also doing email marketing. So I had like, I was doing MailChimp for one client and constant contact for another, and I was doing all the different builders within WordPress.
You know, like I really liked Divvy, but like someone else had a different one. So I was using whatever Divvy is the best, but that's a conversation for another day. So basically what I was like, this was when I first started, everything was all over the place. I had no systems and I spent so much time like flipping my brain around to be like, okay, wait a minute.
Like in Divvy, the anchor links are controlled in this spot, but in Squarespace you have to write the code for the Anchor LEAs in this spot. And what's the CSS code again, for the anchor link? Like it was just like such a hole. It took so much time out of me that I eventually was like, okay. Something's wrong.
Like I replaced my income, which was great, but I was like, okay, but wait, I need to be like more streamlined. So at a certain point I basically was like, alright, WordPress is fine, but I don't really like it that much. Squarespace, I am fast, I'm really good at it. And I've been practicing for like three years with this anchor client.
e. And then pretty quickly:I stayed at 3,600 for like maybe a year or two. Um. And in fact, actually it never even occurred to me to charge more than 3,600 until I really, until we had a kid. And I was like, oh wow. Alright, well first of all, I don't have two weeks anymore. That's not how that's gonna look. And also like 3,600 for like two projects in a month is no longer covering the expenses that my family requires of me.
And so that's when I was like, okay, how do we sort of reassess, shift, update, pivot? And that's how I, like, then I like tripled my rates overnight and have, I have basically been like scrambling to keep up ever since then.
That's,
Nothing.
what I met you.
Yeah, exactly. And uh, nothing breaks the business quite like tripling your rates overnight. 'cause then I had to like, obviously the product, I hadn't changed my rate in so long that the product was still the same. Thing and was like, Val, properly valued, appar, like now properly valued at triple the break.
But like my acquisition processes were a mess. My marketing system is a mess. My, like everything else was built for this like smaller engine basically. And so I've been just trying to, I've been spending a lot of time sort of updating all of those things to match where I'm headed.
It's, I
That's
looked at it, we don't have to go too far down this rabbit hole 'cause it's not really why we're here, but like I remember when we looked at it and it was like you're getting paid almost nothing per hour. When you also factor in all the acquisition work you're doing and all the time that you're like just generally not getting paid to be in your business, to be posting on and LinkedIn and do all these coffee chats, which is very much a part of your specific acquisition process.
exactly.
at some point, if you were anybody el, if you were any other business, like if you go buy a bar of dial soap, you are paying for their janitor and you're paying for their accountant and you're paying for like, you're paying for all of the things. Like as a business owner,
Yes,
your clients not in the beginning, like of everyone has to start somewhere, but at some point you gotta figure out where it's all getting made up in the wash.
exactly. Yeah. And that was one of the biggest things I learned from you for sure, was just not only like, when you say it that way, it makes so much sense, like duh. But I had never thought of it like that. Like I was, I was exp expect I was pricing the business based on the hourly rate, an hourly rate based on an estimate of how much time I thought it would take me to build the website at the time that I was pitching it.
makes sense.
Totally. I mean, you have to start somewhere, right? But, and I had to be fair, this $3,600 package had a whole bunch of add-ons. So like, if you needed a logo or you needed a new visual identity, or you needed copywriting help, like each of those things was an add-on to that. So it wasn't like every project was just $3,600, sometimes they were a little higher.
But I was still, you know, I was also still so new in my business that like projects could take me anywhere from like, like it was like 60 to 90 hours and Yeah. Exactly.
bucks.
For 3,600 bucks. So like, but I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't tracking that information or I was using my time really inefficiently or, um, like, I was like not fast enough at code.
So I would get myself into a code problem and then like have to solve it. It would take me a while to solve it. And there were just like a lot of, a lot of things like that, that I've, at this point, first of all, I've just become much faster and better and just a stronger coder than I was before. Um, but also I've, I've set the business up to be more streamlined so that I don't have to like, reinvent the wheel every time.
Like I have, I have like a code bank for example, that I now refer to when I need a specific item of code as opposed to, like, I used to have to either build it myself, research how to build it, figure it out. Then I would store it in the client's website. So if I ever needed it again, like, let's hope and pray to God that client's website's still there and I'm still an admin.
Like I would have to like go back in and get the code. Like it was like a, just a mess.
Now AI can do it for you.
And now AI can just do it for me, which is a whole different world. So. Yeah, I think all of those, I mean, I don't even remember. That was the evolution was basically just me being like, okay, what are my, well, really, it comes back to the question you asked me about sustainability.
Like everything has always been, well, how do I adapt to the needs, my current needs at the moment, and how do I make this business fit my current needs and like each time I pivot or upgrade or change something major in the business, it's because something in my life, some bigger why has required that of me.
yeah. When you've also learned that like your business has, I mean, this is just my observation, just because I have known you for a while. It's like your business has cycles and that's, I think that's true for anyone. If you start to look at it, there are always cycles and you know, like you went. Tell me if you don't want this aired, but like you had a stretch where it was like, oh my God, there's nothing coming in.
And then you were like booked out for like the rest of the year after
Yeah.
just like, okay, you understand that these are, it's why I'm so adamant that like if I'm gonna do any kind of consulting work, I'm like, you have to come in for a year because just don't even know what's gonna start to happen until we get to the end of the first year.
And that's when things, in my opinion, that's when things get good. But anyway, just as a, just as sort of my own, my own 2 cents on that,
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's totally accurate. Also, something I will tell you is that, um, I had always had that anchor client until I started working with you. That was the beginning. So in some senses like this, I'm in like right now, what I would consider the third phase of my business. I've never not had an anchor client.
So that, that, like the feast and famine cycle you're specifically talking about was my, despite being an entrepreneur for like seven years, just like, you know, six months ago or whatever, was my first feast or famine cycle, like a true feast or famine cycle, because I had always had. Just like a little something from this anchor client that I could rely on, but I could also never grow to the, I could never grow to where I am now with saving time for the anchor client, if that makes sense.
So like it was a risk, but a calculated risk that worked out?
yeah. Those are the, I mean, I think those moments are like the scariest, but where the biggest. not always right away, but like the biggest breakthroughs wind up happening or like the sweetest moments wind up happening. Because usually when you start feeling like, I think it's time, usually time.
It's usually past time
Mm-hmm.
by the time you really start. Anyway, that's my
Yes.
cents. I would be cur like, and then we'll, we'll make this the end of this little segment and then we'll transition into like talking about your process, which I love and I have probably talked about on this podcast before. 'cause I think it's, it's a cute name anyway. And which would be how, like looking back at when you were selling 800, $1,800 websites, $3,600, two week websites that compared to now having like 8,000, 10,005 figure plus packages that you've now sold. Like what do you think your biggest in the way that you show up to sell those packages has been?
Oh my gosh, that's a great question. Um, I've completely changed how I sell those packages. Um,
You have to, I mean, there's completely different people who are gonna buy them. So
completely different people.
sense have to,
Yeah. And, so I also like, wanna, I wanna mention that like I have. I have a whole bunch of packages that I offer. Right? Like one of them is what you're discussing. Like, it's like a $10,000 package, but that's not right for everyone. Um, so like sometimes I am still pitching $3,600 websites, but those websites look very different from the websites that I was pitching like before.
Um, also I've changed the way that looks, the $3,600 website now takes only one week, not two weeks. Um, and there's a bunch of stipulations that like have to be met in advance in order for you to qualify for it and whatever. There's a whole bunch of like, and, and there's still the add-ons. So like things are still happening, um, at for some clients.
That's right. So basically what's hap basically the biggest thing that has changed is that I am, I have like, uh, I have like a suite of tools that I'm pulling from and I don't always know when the conversation starts, like where. Which of these tools we're gonna need when I start selling? So like sometimes I'm talking to people and I, um, and I think it's gonna be, uh, that's not true.
I typically, I guess I do know, 'cause I have a strong inquiry form, so when people come in, when they book a call with me, I have enough background information to know if like they're expecting a $3,600 project or if they're expecting a $10,000 project or if they like, really don't know, but they're at a position where they're ready to, like, they're ready to invest in their marketing.
They just don't know what that is gonna cost. And they sort of like, sometimes they're people who have already worked with me, so they sort of just trust me to pitch them what they need. Um, so yeah, the, the biggest change, the number one biggest change is that I now have this like visual presentation that I give on all of my sales calls, um, that I never did before.
And I have. I just, I, I look now like I'm worth that $10,000, whereas before, when I was doing these $3,600, I was, I had a $3,600 like experience all around. There was, it was just a phone call. Um, it was a quick little thing. I had an agenda, but it was mostly just a conversation. It was very casual. I didn't tell them I had an agenda.
Like I was just like, you know, I was just like, do, do, do. Like, at the end of the call, I had like a soft close and, and typically it worked because of who I was talking to. And I was always just talking to like someone's mother-in-law. Like, it was like, you know, it was like always like a connection that worked.
And now I'm, I'm pitching like. I am pitching my services and I come and I'm prepared and I organize, and I say to them, like, right in the first minute, I'm like, well, I have a little agenda, so I'm gonna steer this conversation. And like, you know, I tell them who's boss right away. I show them my present.
Yeah. I show them my presentation when I get to the, you know, and, and basically the whole way along, I'm like, they're asking questions. I'm affirming that I've worked on this project before. They're asking me more questions. I'm saying, oh my gosh, you're sounding like every client I've ever had. Like, these are all things that I can totally do for you.
And then I say, are you ready to like, discuss the process? And I show them my little process. We talk about my four P design methods, so I'm sure we'll get to the four Ps. But then like once I get, once I show them all of that, they're like, oh, wow, that's amazing. I, I guess I see now why it's so much more expensive than everyone else I'm talking to who's like, you know, they're, that's what they always say to me.
I had two of those this week who were like, why are you twice the price of the other people I was talking to? And I was like, well, those people don't know what they're doing.
grab your popcorn. I'm about to show you.
Yeah, exactly. I'm like, get, get ready for this presentation. Um, so yeah, and I think I, I'm like, I've, I've upgraded my systems just in general, not just with the presentation, but then like for example, if it's a $3,600 level package, like I'm gonna try and close that on the call.
The first call, if it's a bigger package that like, that it seems like they're interested in, I'm gonna have a proposal call that's separate from like this initial sales call on the proposal call. That's when I come with a very customized, like the presentation looks, this looks similar, but has like customized options for their needs.
Has a whole bunch of different. Like basically possible add-ons and combinations. I would introduce the team that may or may not be getting pulled into the project. I'm showing examples of past work that that team may has done before or that we've done together. I'm showing them like, you know, I've, I'm putting together more of like an aid to con like have the closing conversation.
And it just is so much higher level. Like I, I typically personalize it also, like there's one a slide on my process that's about like how you get to sit back and relax. 'cause then I just do all the work. And for the generic version, it's just like a picture of a laptop and then it's like, oh, you sit back and relax, I'm just gonna get to work.
But after that initial call, I've gotten to know them enough to know like what they wanna do to relax. And so like, you know, I just made one for someone. He told me he loves sailing. So I like have a, a vid, a video of someone like kicking their feet up on a boat. And that's like specifically for him. And another, another client of mine.
Posts a lot about rest on her, um, or whatever on Instagram. And so I like pulled a picture from their feed and popped it into the thing. So like I'm basically, I'm able to, I'm able to work these pieces of my personality that I'm, that are natural assets of mine into this system that has that now. Then tells people like, oh wow, I see now why she's worth so, like, I see why a project with this person is gonna be more expensive than a project with like my neighbor's daughter down the street.
Yeah.
just getting into web design.
Yes. Well, I, I mean the big takeaways that I heard, which I didn't know all that, and I think this is gonna be a good transition into like, what is your process? Because I'm assuming that's what is in, like the visual presentation is about your process, and do you talk about your 4 "alities"?
I actually do not talk about the 4 "alities"
don't?
on the calls. Yeah, I, um, I learned that there's not enough time because, uh, it's like the pro, well, well, we can talk a little bit about it. The, the 4 "alities" exist. They are my framework for building a website, which I'm sure we can get into in a minute. But the, the, uh, the reason they work really well is that they attract people who would want to have the, like, process conversation with me for how I do it.
I find that I did try, I have been testing. I made a video and I embedded it on my inquiry form, and that video walks through the 4 "alities", but like, no one watches it. And I'm, and no one's like talking to me about it and no one's mentioning it to me. But when I share about the 4 "alities", the, like, people that I'm talking to are super jazzed about it and like, think it's really cute and really connect with it.
But I find that prospects, like they don't care. Like when they're at the point where they're ready to book a call with me, they're not looking at that video. They don't care. So, um, probably that needs a tweak if I'm like assessing what's working in the business. But really the 4 "alities" are great for like, conversations like this where I know that like it's really, it's really generic and, and works for anyone.
Um, like using the 4 "alities" to make a great website works for anyone. But how I specifically do it would be catered to each unique use case for who I'm building it for. Does that make sense?
Interesting. So you, do you do the four Ps on the initial? On the initial call or the proposal call or both?
On the initial call and, and on the proposal call, I like reiterated on the proposal call.
My two sons, I'd be very interested to see how the 4 "alities" would work specifically in a, in the proposal call as
Oh, instead of the P.
of like, this is my, this is my framework. But then also like, this is what it would specifically look like for you, because it's always custom tailored to the client.
So like, this is your, this is John's 4 "alities"
Oh, yeah. That's a really good idea.
so that's the, because when we talked about framework, initially, I did not have a framework. Framework. I like have a framework for frameworks now,
Yeah.
so. Your process framework is what I call your transformation framework, but the 4 "alities" is what I call your conversion framework. And that's the thing that gets people to understand like what they're actually paying for, not just how quickly and the timeline for what, what it, what's gonna look like to get there. So it's like the thing that makes them go, oh my God, I want this and you are clearly the only person on earth who can do it this way and give me what I want and I want this.
That is,
framework.
you are so wise because that's exactly what I'm doing on my calls. I'm just doing it with the four Ps. So basically I, like, on the initial call, I just give them the generic version and I always mention like when I'm talking to them, if it, especially if I know it's gonna be like a smaller, like one of these $3,600 packages.
The, the, the proposal that, not the proposal, the slideshow that I'm showing them is for like my like $8,500 package. So it obviously goes into like a lot more detail in the. Like the small print is basically like, I was like, so this is for like a full custom site and not really what you need, but like for the sake of this exercise, just gonna use these same slides to show you.
I always use a line like that, but on the conversion call I would then like take the four Ps and specify what's needed for their specific thing. So I changed the small print for the proposal call and I think I need to do the 4 "alities" instead.
Yeah. Of like, this is what visuality would be for you. This is what Propositionally, I'm gonna see if I can remember all four of them would be, you'd basically just go through and show them like, this is what it means. This is what it would mean for you
Yeah. And, and that would,
I want that.
Rachel, you're brilliant.
that would also be really smart because it would allow me to like pull. Not like a full mood board, but like some inspiration based on what they've told me, if it's relevant for this client.
Yeah.
help them see the difference. 'cause a lot of the times their questions are like, well, like so and so made me these like little icons say, you think we need, do we need to ditch them?
Like sometimes people don't understand like what the, what the rebrand for example. Like for what a rebrand might like. Why, why would I do that? Um, that would just give me a little bit more space to be like, this is the vision I have for you.
To bring it full circle, it's the zhuzh.
The zhuzh It's the zhuzh.
Yeah. At.
That's a great idea. Wow. Put that in the, I put it on the, on the list.
Put it on the list. Um, I do talk about like what are the 4 "alities", but I also want to highlight for anyone who's listening to this and it's like, okay, but how is this relevant to me? If you're not picking up what we're putting down on this, like without getting into my systems, because I love a framework and I think frameworks are probably the most important thing you can ever develop for your business if you want, especially if you wanna sell like real high ticket, it shows very clear that you are an expert, but beyond that, like you did something that I didn't know you were doing. that is the whole visual presentation. Like number one, when you can connect when you can connect visuals to your sales process, because people process imagery like 60,000 times faster than they do words.
Hmm.
you can show them, rather than tell them, which is a theater concept, show them what. It is that they're gonna get or show them what it could be or like even show them the feeling of what it could be. It does a lot. It's why like you choose specific images, which maybe we'll get into with why you choose the images that you do for when you put them on websites, but also customizing an experience and having I would call them relevancy triggers for the thing about the sailboat that's really smart and it takes, it takes a little bit extra time, like if you just wanna turn up to the call and whatever.
But it's, it's smart because it shows someone, number one, that you care. Number two, it's gonna feel more relevant for them, which is gets warms 'em up to buy a little bit more. Anyway,
Yeah.
I think it's a smart process.
Oh, thank you. Yeah, and it doesn't work perfectly for everyone. You know, like the sailboat thing, for example. Um, this is a prospect and his current website has a sail, like a picture of like a clear blue sky in the clear water. And you can see the beautiful horizon. There's a sailboat in the corner.
Um. He was like, you know, what do you think of this as a background image on my homepage? And I was like, you know, he just sort of started chatting. Like, I was like, I think, you know, I said, I'm of two minds. Because basically, you know, the answer is always, it depends, right? Like, on the one hand I do think it's effective.
It, it's explaining part of what you do, but it's also like you're not a sailing company. So like it's a little confusing and you're sort of expecting your users to make this like, leap. Um, so anyway, coincidentally he was like, I just like it, you know, I happen to like sailing. And I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I was like, yeah, I mean, take me to this beautiful beach any day.
Literally any day I'll go to the beach. Um, so we like, it was just like a little aside, but then when I went to go build the thing, I was like, oh, duh. Like, that's the picture I'm gonna put here. Um, for someone else, she like told me she's a swifty. So I made sure that, like, when I was looking for that slide for that person, I found like a picture of Taylor drinking a, drinking a drink, kick up, feet kicked up.
Or like laying in a pool or whatever. Someone else told me they wanted, they were about to go to Hawaii, so I was like, oh, I have a picture of that person. Like floating, floating on a pool boat, like in the, you know what I mean? Like just like little cues that I am able to be like, and this will be you floating on this pool float.
Just like you said, you would be like chilling while I do all the work to build your beautiful new website.
gonna say, that'd be funny if you did like a split screen with like them on one side with like the chill whatever, and you like furiously typing away at your computer with like smoke coming out of behind you. The
Yeah,
difference.
and that's the difference. That's how I, that's what I do in my free time. That's funny.
the things.
Yeah. I.
is a, this is a good segue into like what is actually your, your design framework and what can, what can the people take away from, like, things that they can keep in mind so that they don't have the 20 and so that they're not trying to sell to the 20, 30 year olds and get the grandmas
Yes, yes. Okay, great. Great question. So, um, I would use my web design framework. I call it the 4 "alities" framework. The 4 "alities" are visuality, functionality, personality, and propositionally. Okay. Visuality is obviously what makes your site look pretty. And a lot of people think that that's like all that goes into web design.
They're like, okay, well here's, someone said to me recently I made like an ugly version and now I wanna upgrade it. And I'm like, okay, well that's only the tip of the iceberg of what I do. The visuality is very small part, obviously very important, but like very small part visuality.
it's the thing that people think of when they think, oh, I want a website redesign. Like they just want it to look nice. But the tip of the iceberg to
Yes.
it.
Yeah, a hundred percent. It's not even like, they're not even thinking about like the fact that there's a reason that there's two calls to action at the, like above the fold, for example. Like that's actually more of a layer of functionality, not visuality. But anyway, whatever. That's like it, obviously we,
can you explain why, why that is?
yeah.
Well first of all, there's always a call to action in your top nav. It needs to be there all the time. For the entire time that anyone is scrolling your website. We want them to be able to see that, um, big loud call to action right in the corner. And then, uh, it's also a best practice to have a big, loud call to action, like on the what's above the fold on the website, which is the part that you see right when you land on it.
Um. In general, web users are not paying attention, so we want to be like, hit them over the head obvious with the thing we want them to do, which is give you money. We want. The website is a, is a way to get people to give you money, and that does not necessarily mean that you have to sell t-shirts or whatever on your website, but it means that like we want them to book a call with you.
We want them to give them, give you your email address, whatever it is you need in order to get them to give you money. We want them to take that action on your website, so hit them over the head obvious with the calls to action. Um, obviously also when it comes to visuality, we want the words to be clear and legible.
I'm checking the contrast ratios so that they're web accessible, but I'm also like making sure that your images are. Crisp at the there, at the right pixel size and the right resolution so that they show up and look really stunning no matter what screen size is being used. So that's visuality. And again, like making sure it has hot pink.
'cause I really like hot pink, like that's great. Like I'm here for hot pink also, but,
Me.
but like, yeah, but like, where and why are we using hot pink? If the whole website's hot pink, then you're gonna lose the, the pop of the hot pink. So visuality is also about sort of like a, a visual balance of all of the things that you're trying to do, um, regardless of why you're trying to do them.
So that's visuality. Next is functionality. Specifically when I talk about functionality, there's two like important buckets. The first is that it needs to be really easy for your users to use. So it really needs to be easy for web users to give you money. And then second, it needs to be easy for you to maintain and edit yourself.
This is why I like decided to, um, go deep in Squarespace and sort of like get rid of all of my WordPress offerings because I want my clients to be able to manage and maintain their own website after I build it for them. So that's functionality and that's a whole world of things we could continue talking about in the functionality realm, but like, let's just leave it at that and move on.
Visuality functionality, personality. Obviously this is the most fun. So in personality, I wanna make sure that you are not like forgettable on your website, right? Like every lawyer looks the same. But if you are like a really. Actually genuine guy who helps a lot of different people in a lot of different capacities.
I wanna make sure that your website makes you look like a real human in a way that makes you more relatable than like a st. Dodgy firm. Um, so like, I want you to still be professional, but I wanna be relatable. And personality is really where I think I bring my, my, like bread and butter is really in, is blending like two seemingly contradictory personality traits into one visual representation.
So like my website for example, I am like loud, bubbly, and fun and like super experienced and serious about what I do at the same time. And sort of like threading the needle between those two things is my specialty. So that's personality, right? And then the last one is proposition and propositionally is what makes you unique in your industry.
So what's your value proposition? I wanna make sure that is like front and center of, again, like hit 'em over the head, obvious on your website that that's what you like, that's what you're doing here that makes you different from everyone else. It's why people wanna work with you. Um, yeah. I mean, jumping back, like thinking about my current client, their, their proposition is that their value proposition is that they do, um, basically like management training.
And they do it very differently than. Um, other people doing the same work. They, uh, do a lot of, like, they're much more fun, they're much more engaging. They're, um, encouraging of vulnerability and real human connection. And they do their trainings in cohorts. Um, so like, you must, you must like work as a team in order to achieve these end goals of being better leaders for your team.
That's like beneath you at work. Um, so, uh, yeah, their visuals show that right off the bat. You can't miss it. Like you can't miss it. They're fun. They're fun and people focused like it. That's the whole website looks like that. Um, lots of pictures of smiling people, people happy at work, people connecting over conversation, tough conversations and fun conversations and like coffee conversations and like computer conversations like.
Having the courage to give a a, what's the word? Like a presentation at a whiteboard in front of a room full of people, but also then like, you know what I'm saying? Like there's, there's so much that I'm blending in there. Um, so yeah, that's the four all, and I achieved those 4 "alities" on a website by using the four P web design process, which we don't have to go into.
But that's sort of how I talk about it when I'm talking to people.
I do wanna, I do wanna talk about it, but I wanna talk about some of these first if we can. That sounded very bossy later. Don't get ahead of yourself, Rachel. Um, because I mean, I think what you're saying, like imagery I think is so important.
Mm-hmm.
I know, know, like I don't really design websites anymore.
I have in the past, but like, I was doing some website work just through my agency naturally because I was doing sales pages and
Yeah.
pages and I would get people who were like, here's my brand imagery and I want you to use like these photos of me. And I'd be like, but none of these work.
Yeah.
Sorry, like you don't, can we talk about like, you don't necessarily want, no one really cares about you.
First
Yes.
they do, like, even if you're a personal brand, they care about you and that they like, they are interested in hiring you. But if you don't have imagery that sort of shows the desired outcome and ideally and but also, or something that shows like what you want people to feel when they land on your website or how that you want them to feel about your business, like it doesn't do much for you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. A hundred percent. 100%. Um, and, or, or, I like to think about also like how it feels and looks during the process of working together. Like when you're, like, I'm thinking a lot about like, when I think, when I say personality sometimes I really mean like organizational culture or like working style.
So. Those are things I'm also trying to pick pictures of. And I think an interesting part of my work is that a lot, sometimes it does come down to like marketing, coaching or even business coaching where I'm like, these pictures aren't good enough. I actually, I can't use them. Like, and I, for some people I say like, I need you to get me either, I need you to get me different images.
If you're really dead set on using something that looks like this, or like, I'm gonna put together a collection of stock photos and you can tell me if they're right or wrong and we can tweak it together. Or like, I'm gonna tell you what you need to do this weekend. Just take an iPhone and you're gonna get your wife to take some pictures of you.
And like, here's what exactly what you're gonna do and how you're gonna do it. And I get like so specific with them, like, I'm like, it must be in a naturally lit room, but no direct sunlight. I say like, I want you to stand next to the window your wife is across from the window. Like, I like explain everything, right?
And I'm like, I want to have a picture of you for a headshot. I need a picture that's like from here up. You know? Like I, and then I want one that's further away and I want one from the side. Like, I like get. If, if I really need, what? If I really need something and they're not able, like they're not giving it to me right away, then that's the level of detail that I'm going into with these clients.
'cause I don't want them to have a bad package. That's also why my starting rate is 8,500 because like if that's what you need, that's the level that we're taking this to.
I just food. Just food for thought. I know other people who do, which I only know show at designers who do this, but I assume there would be some type of, some type of parallel. Here is the show at designers that I know who do like what you're talking about is creative direction.
Yeah.
It almost doubles the package price.
Yeah. As it should because it's extremely time consuming and
And it's like really high level strategy work. Like you wouldn't like, oh, I'm gonna tell you how to like show up and take pictures, but it's like, it's what people respond to.
people are, so the thing is like, not every client needs that,
Yeah.
but like. Sometimes they do. And they didn't know. They didn't know until they get into it that that's what they needed. And so like, yeah, you're right. It does. It is why my packages are expensive because like I can guarantee that your neighbor's, your neighbor's cousin down the street who just started doing web design, it's like not doing that.
Yeah. I love that. I didn't, I also didn't know that. That's great.
Yeah, there you go. That's how I do it.
On along those lines, because I'm really interested in this from like a, like why people respond. like human behavior in general is interesting to me. So like trying to reverse engineer human behavior for something that is like tech is so kind of dry or it can be dry. So like how you reverse engineer to get someone to want to take an action on something. Like how does that correspond visually? Or like, which one of the all gets sort of looped in to visuality on that. Because there are so many things like just to get someone to keep scrolling. It's not just what it looks like.
Yeah, it needs to be like balanced and engaging and um, in some cases there needs to be like, some movement on the page, I find. So like, um, usually my clients veto this by the time it gets to publishing. So like, I, almost none of my websites that are like in my portfolio have, have this function, but I always build it with it and then have to peel it back.
Um, but having like scrolling text or, um, like a rotating image if it's irrelevant, you know, some images don't look good when they're rotating, but like, just like something that's sort of enticing people to like stay a little longer. Um, I also just think like in general, the whole page needs to have a flow to it.
Um. So that when you look at the whole thing, like as you're scrolling through each section, like one section leads nicely into the other. Um, people will just, in the general data says that people are more likely to scroll than click. So like that's interesting. Um, but I find that the, like the mixture of compelling language and compelling, but like somewhat moving via images will keep people around for longer.
But that's like unique to each different audience too. Like I would have to look at the analytics on a website to tell you like what's working and what's not. As opposed to like what I think would be working
yeah, yeah. I love moving images on websites. I think it's really engaging me personally. I don't know that everyone would feel that way, it's also like if it slows the website down, is no bueno.
well. Yeah, of course. So that's also something you have to sort of navigate like. I really like a gif, but like only like a forest slide gif. Um, so it's, it's moving, but it's pretty subtle. Um, and also like, listen, I'm thinking in particular, I worked with a forest therapy guide recently and uh, for her website did
therapy.
a forest therapy guide.
Yes.
Wow,
Yeah. Very interesting.
that sounds very hippie.
It was so it, I was expecting it to be so hippie, but it's actually like super sciencey and it was like not that woo at all, which is like, not what I was expecting, but the, but for that website, I did have a four slide gif and I wanted it to rotate really slowly. So there was some movement, but it wasn't like fast paced because like, first of all, nature's always moving, but also nature's never fast paced.
So like I wanted to make sure that I was hitting both of those things.
Hmm.
For someone else if their work is fast paced or they're, they talk really fast or they're more of a, that, that movement is different. Um, or also like having scrolling texts that's like wavy versus having scrolling texts that straight.
Um, I don't know. I, I think a lot about all those elements and what they, what messages are they sending? Not just like, oh, this is some scrolling text, but like, why are we using scrolling text and does it speak to the audience that's gonna be looking at this website or no?
Yeah. I would love to hear about the four Ps and potentially also weaving them into like how you use them in your sales proposal so that people get some sense of like maybe how they could do something with their own sales calls if they have a, have a process. What's that look like?
Four Ps are prep, put it together, polish and publish. And every single project that I do goes through all four of the Ps. The way it works on my calls is that I just like explain what that looks like and how it works. Prep is where we do all the content, all the visuals, we get it ready in advance. Put it together is like the sprint portion, polish, obviously, where checking the functionality, submitting final feedback, SEO, web, accessibility, all the like nitty gritty stuff.
And then publish is where I lead a score space training, call transfer ownership to you. And then we celebrate that your site has launched. Woohoo. So, um, um, that's the, that's how that works. And then on my, so on my calls. My initial call, I'm explaining that process to say, here's the, here's how it's gonna work when we work together.
This is the exact steps I'm gonna walk you through and what we're gonna do in each step. And then they're like, oh, great. Okay, cool. And then I have like a little like quick notes section where I tell them like basically the boundaries for the project. And then, um, after that I'm like, all right, well, do you have any questions?
And then when I say like, sort of high level, like at, at that point I'm either saying like, I expect this to be a $3,600 website and I turn around in a week, or I'm saying, um, I would love to put together a custom proposal for the package that we just discussed. You know, let's pick a time to meet next week so I can pre, you know, present something to you and we can talk more about pricing and options.
Um, so yeah, that's how that looks. Does that answer your question? I'm seeing now. I'm seeing now that what I should be doing is then on that follow up call, I should, I should be going through the 4 "alities" and explaining how I'm gonna do the 4 "alities" with the website that they talked about. And then I can like run through the prep, the four P's, because we already did that.
I'll just say like, the four P's are here, we're gonna do this, you know, I updated these two, but you could read through it in your free times. It's like, not that exciting. And we basically already reviewed it and then I can say like, okay, and that's, you know, that's $10,000 package.
Yeah, but I think, I mean, I think, yes, yes. And, but it's also, um, like understanding how to customize, like what I said in the beginning, if selling is understanding what someone wants,
Mm-hmm.
helping them feel something about
Mm-hmm.
understanding what
Mm-hmm.
like that's customizing their experience, understanding how to shape a conversation, and then understanding what to pitch them based on what they said to you, which is why I'm so adamant that like in the beginning, if you have a gazillion different packages, if you don't understand how to listen. You are like, and you're just like, I'm just gonna pitch the most expensive. It's not necessarily the best move, but anyway.
It's not gonna work. And for a lot of these people, even for the lower ticket people, like a lot of them are just curious. Like they didn't realize that SEO research costs extra or they don't really understand what goes into building a new logo. So all of them are like, well, I'd be curious to know how much that costs.
And then suddenly I'm like, well, I can't, like, I can't like, get quotes from my colleagues to ask for, like if you're like not serious about it. So I can give them like a ballpark. And I usually do, and then I put it together and I say, this is what I would expect. You know, if this is, if this kinda what like I, for someone, uh, just recently did this, I said, I usually would expect it to be in this ballpark.
You know, what are you thinking? Is that something you want or know? And he was like, oh, probably not at this time. And I'm like, okay, great. Because like, I'm not gonna go source a, I'm not gonna go source someone for this project if you're like, nah, I was just curious. Like that's. Just curious versus like how much of it actually costs.
It's a little bit different. Um, yeah.
I like it. Is there anything of all this that we did not touch on that you think we needed to?
No, this is so fun. I came with a side of coaching. I didn't realize that I was gonna get that. Fun fact, I gotta fix, I gotta fix something.
I can't help myself.
I'm not, I, uh, I feel like there's always something to be improved when you're running a business. And like if you're not ready for that, then maybe you shouldn't be running a business. There's always something to be improved.
there is always something that can be improved. That's, I'm judging this weekend at a music competition and. Random things in my life. And one of the things that I'm like, there's always like, you could have the greatest singer in the world standing in front of you. And I will always be like, just constructive feedback
Yeah,
really freaks people out.
There's always something that, yeah.
I'm not very good at that when it comes to selling the client on, like, I'm not very good at saying like, oh, you really need a new brand. Like, I don't wanna offend anyone. So like, yeah, I have to be careful. 'cause if they're like, oh, I really, you know, I really like this logo, but the person, the logo they were showing me actually was not great.
Um, at all. It had like two overlapping images, so it was like sort of hard to read in some ways. And the two overlapping images were separate contrasted colors. So one of them was like a light green and one was a dark blue, so that means that like the light green part isn't visible on a white background and the dark blue park's not visible on a dark background.
And it was like just not a good logo. For, for those two really big reasons. Um, but the person was like, you know, I had this great girl on my team. She bought me this awesome logo, and I'm like, not necessarily ready to like ditch logo. So I can't be like, I think you need to ditch logo. Um, and by the way, it's gonna cost an additional $3,000 for you to dish the logo like no one wants, like, you know what I mean?
Like that's a different, uh, it's a tough, it's tough.
Well, I know people who, like, if you are gonna go into their package with them, they must redo everything. And I like, I personally find that putting off, putting, um. Like, I know that everything about me personally, my brand is not perfect. Like when I look at it, I'm like, I would have, so ma I would have a lot of critique with what I put out for myself if I were to go.
Yep.
it's fine. But there are certain elements of it that like, I would not be willing to go of. And seeing things you must let us redesign your color palette. You must let us redesign. Like it has to be a full, that would be an instant that I'm not gonna work with you. So I, it's always, it's a both hand.
Yeah, I mean, and, and I would never do that also. 'cause again, like I want, I'm, I'm working with small business owners. Like they don't always have 10 to $15,000 to do the whole thing. Right. In one, like all in one sitting. So like, I have to be understanding of like, we could and probably should redo your visual brand, but like, that doesn't necessarily have to happen right now.
It can happen later. For right now, we can just take this new story, this new content that you've built and put it on the website and like sort of just like work with what you got. And like in a year we can revisit, you wanna update the brand, we'll update the brand and then we'll sort of like zhuzh, the website to match.
It's not the ideal way to do it, but like. That's what, that's how it works when you're running a bus, like you're running a business. It's not gonna be perfect. What's the minimum viable product that you need for this exact moment?
sustainability is flexibility.
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Amazing. Well, to really wrap this up, what the question that I used to ask that I want to come back to is, let's pretend, let's fast forward to the very end of your business. Do you know what I'm gonna ask you?
No.
Do you know this question? Okay. So fast forward to the very, very end of your business.
If it's because you're retiring or because you've exited, you've sold it to someone, or whatever the happy reason, it's a happy time. What are the three things you hope it will have given you?
Um, freedom, like schedule freedom and like money freedom. Like to have enough money to be able to make choices, um, like the right choices. Also fun. Like I want it to have been a good time building this thing. Yeah. Freedom and fun. Yeah. I love it.
I love it. um, where can people find you? Where, how, what, what do you have for the people?
Yeah. I am, uh, obviously on Instagram and LinkedIn. Please find me on Instagram. I'm Mrs. Brightside, but I spell it SEID like my name. Um. And I, uh, yeah, I would, I would love to talk to anyone who's thinking about building a new website or has questions about building a new website. I sort of, I have offerings that are like as small as like a one time sort of like working session to go through a list of things you wanna get off your plate.
Um, all the way up to like, obviously a full custom redesign, rebrand, whole, whole shebang. So if anyone is anywhere in between on that scale, um, I would be more than happy to book a copy date, chat more, tell you more about my work, hear more about yours, and see if there's anything I do to help.
Amazing. Well, I'll, I'll link all, all the things below and this was fun to chat
It was so fun.
I know to get to know you better was fun.
Yeah. I can't believe you didn't know my whole backstory. Wow. Amazing.
I feel like I knew like pieces here and there, but definitely not the whole, I think I knew you went to college in Boston,
Right.
but not, and like that you, I don't. Yeah. But most of it, no. So that's fun. Love it. Well thanks for being here.