What does it mean to be a good dad?

Carlos has two kids; Gabriel is 13 and Esmé is 9. And for nearly a decade and a half he’s been trying to work out the best way to be their dad.

He has no manual nor any training... only lots of questions.

Should he be disciplined or relaxed? Should he focus on their financial security or their emotional wellbeing? Where do his dreams and ambitions fit in? How can he balance it all?

When answering these questions, Carlos has relied on his gut instinct… and his own role model.

His dad.

But following his way of fathering has also been a challenge. There are many things that Carlos is grateful to him for, and also things that he would have like to do differently.

And doing things differently is where some of the struggle has been.

Carlos wants to understand his father’s past struggles, present fears, and his lifelong passions to shake up his old assumptions and discover what really makes him dad tick.

In this episode, Carlos and his dad Luigi talk about going from a shepherd to a guide; his childhood, education, money, working with people, solitude, art, dreams, and responsibility.

Friday, fireside podcast.

I'm gonna stop.

Anyway, we, we are slowly, um, getting ready.

Um, my mom has promised not to interfere and make noise in the background.

Uh, and my dad is, uh, preparing himself.

He asked me, he's like, you said, is this only an hour?

He's like, how long did you expect this to go on for

why is this happening?

I think this is, uh, there's two reasons why this is happening.

a, I'm flying solo today.

Uh, Lawrence is caught in Devon, unfortunately.

So I'm on my own and I thought, okay, who can I talk to?

I could just talk on my own.

Uh, and I'm very happy to do that for one hour.

As much as many other people might not be interested in that.

Um, or I could do something that I've been threatening to do for a long time and invite my dad onto the podcast.

Um, a because we've had our moms on, and so a bit of parity to, to just make sure that they both feel equally loved.

Uh, and b um, I thought it would be nice to have a conversation of ours kept for posterity.

Because I remember with Nonno, so my grandfather, um, who passed away, how long ago is it now?

2015.

2015, and he was 100 and.

Three, near

nearly 103.

And I remember during that time, you, you, you recorded lots of conversations with him and you were trying to bring, as I had said, under record some of his memories and his stories.

Um, and it was quite, uh, a connecting time as I have felt for you and, and Nonno.

And so in, in inspired a little bit by that, I thought it'd be nice to have similar kind of conversations with you, uh, and, um, particularly from the angle of me being a dad and trying to understand what it means to be a father, particularly now in this kind of 21st century where it's, it's, it feels less clear cut in what it means to be a dad and be a man in inverted commerce.

And we can go into that later.

So be, um, I think understanding you and our relationship more I thought would be also helpful for me to understand how that relationship with my son and my daughter would, um, can turn out, uh, or how I can sort of be with that.

And we've had lots of conversations already, uh, around this stuff and so I thought it'd be nice to, to, to do it in public, to think out loud.

It's one of the things that we talk about a lot on our, uh, Vision 2020 program in terms of have, if you got an idea and you're trying to work it out, why not?

Out loud and see what happens.

Cuz that's a great way to, to spark off new ideas and new thoughts and new insights.

Uh, but ultimately it'd be nice to having a, a little conversation with you dad and, and go on memory lane.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think we have ever talked about my, uh, young days, so to say, you know, I don't think we have any discussion about, You know, they were where I was

Not deep discussions.

No, no.

And it'd be interesting to hear though.

I I do, you know, there, there have been many times that you have told myself, Analisa, Nick, my siblings, um, how good we have it, because when you were a kid you didn't have all the suites and you didn't have all the, the, the luxuries and comforts that we have had as children.

So I definitely got bits of that story.

But like you said, it'd be nice to sort of dive a bit deeper into what, what it was like, uh, uh, as a child and how that kind of molded you as an adult.

And also that there's a further story around your journey to the UK and what, and, uh, kind of winding path that it took you on.

And also for someone who's essentially lived a self-employed life, you kind of more or less worked for yourself and you've, um, been uh, what we call a company of one.

Uh, and also that what that approach meant not only for you, but also how it's also affected, affected is the wrong word, influenced my I ideas of what work means.

But before we go into that story stuff and go a bit deeper, um, maybe share a bit, and this is what I get our guests to do, is like, firstly, how are you feeling right now?

How are you arriving as I call it?

Well, you know, I feel I'm, I just turned 80, so it's, I mean, I feel a little bit getting older, that's all.

You know, you are as you could be or as I used to be.

And I'm a much slower, you know, even thinking or doing things and uh, uh, I think that, you know, it's powerful.

You can feel it, you know?

Uh, but on the other hand, you know, I turned 80 and, uh, uh, I, I, I count myself to be lucky because a lot of my friends that I grew up with, uh, they are not with us anymore.

You know, they've gone and they became invalid, so partly invalid.

And, uh, I'm lucky that I'm still, I would say, quite fit, you know?

Uh, although it did influence me when I fell down three years ago and they said, you know, things have changed with my memory.

A lot of it has been wiped away.

You know, things, things sometimes, but by and large, I think I, I feel good and I don't have pains, so I'm, I'm very lucky to say compared to a lot of, uh, friends and, uh, people that I know.

I was going to say like you are retired at the moment.

Yeah.

But before the call, you told me that actually you've got some work that people are asking you to do.

That's right.

You know, I mean, I would've been possibly working a little bit escorting some groups, uh, in Europe.

Even, you know, before C O d I had some contracts.

Then last year again, uh, I was also afraid one, two that had signed before, the year before because all things had come to us and still that people were not traveling.

Museums are closed still or partly clothed, some of them.

Uh, and therefore, but, um, it's a hoped that this year things will go ahead.

Um, in the last I would say eight years I've been something slightly different.

Uh, I've been working for this company, which took pilgrimages to holy places, and uh, this year, uh, it's been postponed already for the second year.

Uh, this , I don't know if people have ever heard of this place, which is it in Bavaria.

And uh, actually it's connected to a pandemic.

Uh, the ones that was 16, uh, thirties in, in Bavaria.

But in Italy it gave me 1628 where so many people died.

And, uh, in Germany, I would say more than 50% of the people had died.

So it's something very tragic, which is connected even to what we are going through a little bit.

Although there are not so many deaths.

And in this little village in Bavaria, they made this.

, they, they cord on themselves, off what you call in French cord, that they wouldn't let anybody in, you know, and, uh, if you went out to, don't come back in.

And, uh, as it happened in this village called, which is in, you know, feet of the Alps, uh, practically near about a hundred, uh, 20 kilometers from Munich, something like that.

Um, they closed themselves off, but they were negating the church.

So one of the husbands that had his children and the wife, they managed to get in and he brought to the plague.

What happened is that within a very short time, uh, 192 people of two of 2000 died, and this priest made this vow that if it would stop the plague, they would perform the passion of Christ every 10 years.

And as it happened, for some coincidence, people stopped dying.

So they took it though that God had answered the prayer and the promise, and they have been doing that since that time.

Since then.

Wow.

1634, every 10 years, uh, during the Second World War in 1944, of course they couldn't perform it, so they performed in 19 50, 60, 70, which I attended.

80, 92,000, 2010, you know.

Mm-hmm.

and, uh, and it was supposed to be 2020, but it didn't because of pandemic, because of this Covid 19.

And, uh, therefore they are going to, to do that this year, uh, starting in May.

And uh, just about 15, 20 minutes ago, I got an offer of three tours.

, it was a little bit, oh my gosh.

It's all around the alp.

So it's not only, of course, you do attend this in two days, you know, then you go to visit Munich, maybe Spog, Vietnam.

all these places, maybe Lucerne.

So maybe to give some context then, what, what, how would you describe your, the, the career that you ended up committing to?

You know, I, I think what, uh, influences us, at least me, but I know of other people, is when you meet somebody, and sometimes you take a different turn in.

First of all, where I was born, there wasn't much choice.

It is a pastoral place.

Uh, BUDK in Snia, you know, when I was there, there were 9 million sheep.

So if, you know, every other person is a shepherd and, and all the families live together.

Bud is on a mountain about 750 meters above sea level and thousand meters, so it snows.

So in the winter months, they take the ship from November to April to the seaside.

So my father was away, so I would see him maybe once a month, the same as you did that, I was away shepherding people around Europe.

So he wasn't there all the time so I didn't have that strict close contact with my father.

But, you know, then when he came back, I would go to the sheep and obviously I learned how to milk them.

I helped out to make cheese, uh, ricotta and all, you know, and, and, and butter and all these things that you make, uh, and so on.

So I was brought up that way, which is, which is good,

uh, in Italy in those days, you, it was compulsory when I was growing up to go to school, up to age 11, five years.

And that was changed after the second World War, that he would go up to 14.

But I went up to age 11.

And then in, in, you know, the, the problem is that at that point they were not doing very well because the price of war came down.

Uh, then later they joined in the European, um, common market.

And then they, so all these things, my father thought that it was not good enough in the sense that he couldn't really also had to make a living out of it because the things were not.

So in any case, uh, he sold the sheep and I started working, um, myself or my own by collecting, you know, cork and so like that for a couple of years and.

I had a friend that was working, my, my cousins were builders and I worked for two years, uh, you know, as a, um, helping in a building industry, you know, bringing stones up to second, third floor, 50 kilos.

And then comes the opportunity.

I met a cousin of my mother who was a waiter in Switzerland.

He came, you know, that was in 1960.

Um, he, he came on holidays for, for, for, for naali, you know, for for Christmas.

And then started talking and he said, well, uh, I'm going to find you a job, you know, if you don't like being here in, in Switzerland.

And I thought he was joking at first, but, uh, couple of years after that, he went back to Switzerland, uh, to Notia.

He was in the French speaking part of Switzerland.

I sent me a letter, said, listen, if you want to come anytime you want to come, you'll find a job here.

Uh, I got ready, you know, within about.

Let's see, a couple of months.

My mother, I must say, encouraged me as well.

Uh, and, uh, off I went to Switzerland, but I didn't, I wasn't not prepared because I had never done any schooling, you know, about catering, about the school.

So, and I ended up in a kitchen, you know, making salads and, uh, filling potatoes and, uh, but, uh, I was a, a good observer.

Uh, then after nine months of that, uh, although I had signed a contract, I got out of it, uh, and, uh, I wanted to earn to, and I was working behind a bar, preparing, you know, things for the waiters, you know, and so on.

So I learned a little bit.

So what I was getting at is the work that you have done for the majority of your life is essentially as a tour director.

And you would take groups of tourists around Europe.

You've also been to other parts of the world doing this kind of work, uh, and essentially looking after people and showing them from your perspective, the beauty and history of Europe.

Uh, where you started off from, as I, as the story that I remember you telling me is that you had to leave school at the age of 11 because na nan couldn't afford to just keep you at school and there was a need for you to actually work.

Part of that time of the age was being a shepherd, and so you would take sheep out into the countryside for a good, maybe even a week or so on your own, trying to just make sure that they were fed and protected.

Yeah.

And so you started off in a, uh, quite a rural, isolated part of Sadia, which is okay of also an island in the middle of the Mediterranean.

And at some point you had the opportunity to go to Switzerland, and this was through your cousin.

Now the question that I'm interested in, is that decision.

To leave Sarnia.

Because on one hand, like you said before, you were in a, in a village where everyone knew each other.

It was, it was like an extended family.

Everyone was looking out for each other.

And I am sure you had many friends and cousins who never left Sarnia or even Budk, so that's true.

But you, you felt the need to leave.

What is it?

Because that must have been quite a difficult thing to do, to go to somewhere, not only leave your hometown, but to go to a completely different country to do something you've never done before and very unknown territory to, to chart what, what, what pushed you to do that?

Well, I, I think within you, you know, I, we used to come down to is next to the seaside, and you might ask yourself, I never been out of it.

What is behind that water there?

Okay.

You can read your little bit of history, a little bit of this about Italy, about this places.

you know, we, I was, um, interested beyond Sardinia in that way.

And I saw an oppo an opportunity because in the end, I suppose I would've been a builder most likely because I had started and I was doing pretty well.

I'd learned how to cluster a little bit out to put bricks.

Uh, but it's quite hard work.

You know, I think I, I did have the ability to learn.

Although up to that point had been denied to me from the academic point of view, rather, because you've always learned something, whatever you do in life, you know, with this manual and so on.

Were you scared at all about leaving

Absolutely not because although all of a sudden you, you are cut off from, uh, your language.

Yeah.

You, you go there, but you know, they speak French.

I didn't learn French in the school because I didn't usually they started doing French after the, you know, the age of 14 in Italy.

Then the languages were not taught in the basic school.

So, uh, I used to steal the book of my sister.

Uh, because she was Antonio, my sister, she became a teacher.

She had a French, so I used to read it and I used to remember some words.

Obviously I didn't know how to pronounce them, but somehow I had that kind of ability to learn and, um, and fine.

So I went there.

I was very much isolated, you know, except maybe for some immigrants and uh, and so on.

But, um, so you, but that wasn't too bad for me.

Why?

Because very often I stayed even one week seeing only a few people with the sheep, you know, at certain times of the year.

Like in the

So you are happy with your own company?

That's right.

I myself was cut off from many of my friends around our neighborhood.

The reason is that my mother, the little shop and uh, her cousin was looking after me and she was, uh, so obsessed with cleanliness that she didn't let me play with other children because I would get dirty.

So I was trying to find my own entertainment, you know, when I was three years old, four years old, and so on.

And I think that also helped me, if that is the right word.

When I went to Switzerland, I didn't find it too uncomfortable, in the sense that I was, I'd been used to being a little bit on my own.

and, and of course I, I realized that unless you learn French, you can't get anywhere.

So, uh, they used to make us work even 14 hours a day.

You know, it wasn't very kind for 12 hours a day.

It's not really the eight hours a day.

And, uh, I still found the energy to learn French, uh, in the evening at night and so on.

And, uh,

How did you learn French?

Uh, well, I enrolled in a school and I would go say, you know, three, four hours a week, something like that.

And then I realized that I had to, to learn Italian again because, uh, you know, when learning tenses about , you know, all these things.

So I had to somehow try to , as we say, in Italian, you know, to, to, to learn a little bit more about Italian as well at the same time.

And, uh, they learned French.

But then once, uh, uh, after a year, that passed, I felt ready that I should learn to be a waiter because I'd learned all a lot about, uh, you know, the, the name.

So you were in the, you were washing the dishes all the time for a year?

Uh, nine months.

When the other three months or so, if I remember right.

Uh, I was preparing, uh, you know, cough.

I mean, I didn't even add that of all these names for Coca-Cola or all these different names that people drank and in Switzerland, which, uh, uh, and, uh, I was preparing, um, things, uh, uh, for, for the waiters that serve the food.

You know, in those days you had the different stages.

You had the, uh, the service, you know, like you are a barran, theran and so on.

You know, we've got all these different stages.

So the opportunity came and to become aami aami and, uh, I was, I think very lucky there.

I, I, my, you know, um, I applied for this job and it was in Montreal.

I dunno if you are, it is on the lake of Geneva, on the opposite lake of the Geneva.

I went to work, uh, in this hotel, continental on the lake, but she said, oh, I need, uh, a kumi in clusters.

It was the summer.

So I said that she, I mean, I didn't have a choice.

I went there and, uh, I was incredibly lucky because this lady, she was German, uh, Swiss, but she spoke very well Italian, like most Swiss do as well as French obviously.

And, uh, she took me like a kind, like a kind of son.

She trusted me that, you know, that I was willing to work.

And, uh, so I, I did a, some season of that, of that in clusters, you know.

And then she sent me to Geneva, uh, uh, which is, uh, a French speaking part.

And uh, you know, KLO is German speaking.

So all of a sudden I realized, oh God, you know, one is to learn also German here, because in the end you can't get anywhere, you know.

So, so I was doing quite well in French and then I did also winter season in Clo the winter, which I became in contact with this.

No, I learned how to skate, you know, I couldn't, I didn't dare going, uh, I would say skiing.

Not that maybe I could afford.

We didn't have that much time, but it was great.

It was the sixties, you know.

Um, in spite of the long hours we found, uh, uh, how to, to learn to dance Bos Nova and twist and all those things, you know?

I mean, it was great.

It was great.

So there was a good social life then?

Yeah.

After you serve the people in the evening, you know they're dinner, then you are free.

And then next morning, of course you have to get up at six o'clock to serve the breakfast.

But, uh, and then you had a couple of hours in the afternoon.

So we did two services, but it was very hard work.

But I had an incredible amount of energy, uh, which meant that I still found time to study a little bit as well at the same time.

And, uh, of course you, I mean, you are young, you know?

And, uh, uh, then I realized that, uh, in the end after that, my friend, I had this friend who passed away, fortunately that I grew up together and was my best friend called Marino.

And, uh, he went to, to Basel in a very good restaurant.

And so did I.

So I went to the best restaurant, actually there was then in Basel, which was called Hotel or Restaurant.

And then we had all the people coming from Laroche, you know, from the, the come with the Royal Royce from the Siba Guide.

You know, it's a very rich city.

So, uh, I learned there to a higher level of serving people, you know, like this Krenn, I, my German wasn't good enough then.

So I stayed there for nine months and, uh, uh, I was trying to learn German, you know.

I liked the place.

It was fantastic.

But then once again, I had met somebody who had worked in Germany before and they were working there and they indicated to me this hotel in Stuttgart, which is not a very rich city, you know that Mercedes PORs is there and Siemens is only 35 kilometers away in all this big multi and, uh, that hotel, there was a restaurant.

They had a restaurant which was the best in Stuttgart at that point.

And I wanted to be, uh, obviously I had waiter, you know, my, my, my idea was a bid waiter, but then I said, oh God, unless I speak English here, I won't get anywhere.

So I start learning English there, but I wasn't getting there anywhere really.

So I said, well, I go to England a couple of years.

I came there as a kind of committer, huh?

Then my, the, the head of this, uh, restaurant says, you know, Luigi, my God, I'm really impressed about your German.

It's really good and I'm going to make you Adam Verducci.

And he increased my pay without me asking for it.

Then after little while he said, my God, Luigi, I heard you taking the order.

Really?

You impressed me.

I'm going to make you really, I think now you have reached it.

You know you can organize banquets, you can do this, you can do that to the floor.

And increases my pace.

So how do I feel?

Great.

Wonderful.

Increases my pay.

I feel well paid.

I feel well rewarded, appreciated, and you try your best.

But then I couldn't go much further because I didn't have the English.

So I said I must learn English, and that's why I decided to come to England, which I discovered, different world altogether.

I wrote to three.

I wrote to the Dorchester, I wrote to the Savoy.

I wrote to the Prince of Wales and all, they sent me a contract.

So I chose the Prince of Wales, uh, in Kensington.

Why?

Because they paid one pound more.

It was, the artists were offering me 11 pounds 50, um, a week.

And they, they offered me 12 pounds 50 a week.

I mean, it sounds little, but you know, I was paying three pounds 50 for a room near Gloucester Road.

So you can imagine that three pounds 50 bought quite a lot.

You could rent a room in South Kensington, let's put it that way, or three 50.

So anyway, I got off because I found an even a better job that I, I broke my contract with, uh, uh, the Prince of Wales after nine months, I think, and I went to work in this place called the Gandier, which they paid 25 pounds.

Doubled your salary.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They doubled my salary.

So I did, um, was good.

And, and then, you know, I went on, I went to work, uh, in the Garrick restaurant, which is in front of the Garrick, just behind the National Gallery there, you know, I worked there for, for quite a while, I think.

Uh, oh, we have a quick question for you from Frances.

Did you meet any a actors at the Garrick?

Definitely.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, it was the place where actors came and now I can't remember some name, but also, uh, even Michael Futu used to come there to, to, to, to have lunch, you know, I, I didn't know much about politics, I must say.

So quickly you said you found your dream job at the cus crut.

Can you just briefly explain what does that mean, being a dream job?

It was a French restaurant, uh, in, in the, just behind the King's Road, you know, just behind the, uh, and then it was patronized mostly by young couples.

You know, Chelsea is always a place where there Israeli was a little bit more money then as well as possibles now as well.

And, um, uh, I used to it like from six to 12.

That's it.

So that meant that I had all day, all day, uh, free.

And I, I used to live, to live just about say hundred yards away from the Natural History Museum, you know, there in, in South Kensington, you know.

And I became literally fascinated with art, to discover my own country, which is the, the one that has got, they say 60% of most workers of art, you know, paintings are actually in Italy or somewhere painted.

So Italians.

Uh, so, um, I discovered a lot and I became very interested.

I started reading and um, you know, I enrolled to do a history of art and so on.

And, uh, all of a sudden I also met somebody.

I started doing sculpture, so I did, uh, uh, you know, some sculpture.

I think I've got one, the first one I did there, you know, and then even did one of your mother, I started doing a little bit of portrait.

And then I found myself that I met this guy when the summer mats used to escort groups in, in, in Spain.

And, uh, I said my knowledge was by far Superior.

Said, well, if he can do it, I must be able to do it as well.

So they were looking for two directors or two escorts.

They called them.

Thomas Cook's, you know, as the oldest tour operator in the world, literally already from the 1850s, uh, with the trains.

And, uh, I was interviewed by this French, uh, manager.

He was French and he tested my languages, you know, that I spoke German, I spoke cause I'd left German, I spoke French.

And uh, and I spoke Spanish as well because I found it his to learn because my, I was suddenly a language is a little bit similar to Spanish.

So it for me was like, uh, very easy to learn in any case.

So he tested me and they said, you know, Mr.

Sabba, who are really looking for people like you,

People like you to do jobs like this?

To no, to be, uh, to, to escort groups.

Uh, and uh, so they gave me the opportunity to join them.

They trained me quickly, you know what to do, you know, how, and so on.

Now part of touring, taking people from hotel to hotel, ranging the meals and so on, was part also of my job as a waiter.

And another force.

So I did the first season for them, uh, taking people from, from England to Italy into the French, to the, to the and back.

Then the second, uh, year I worked for them, just to make it very quickly, they gave me the tour of Italy only.

So I did the tour of Italy.

Mm-hmm.

Always the same tour.

So you knew people, you know things and, uh, and they learn more about the, about the cities, you know, about from, uh, from Venice to Rome, to Sorento, to Capri, to all these places, you know, that you go to that are popular, uh, and some, and, um, and it was great.

After that, uh, Thomas Cook's decided to sell.

It was bought by, uh, by the bank, I think.

And, um, then I went to American Express Vacations, which I was, yes.

And then, uh, sometimes you have to bluff.

You cannot know.

For instance, uh, I work for Express and they literally threw me into a 38 day tour of places I didn't have been to, like, from parts of France that I didn't, France or Spain and, uh, okay, italy.

Okay.

But Austria, uh, I, I didn't, I mean, I, I'd been to Switzerland, but I didn't know.

So you had to learn on the job?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Learning all the time.

I bought thousands of books in the United,

I remember your books, you had your books on the Bluffers Guide to this and the Bluffers guide to that.

Because you didn't have Google, so I mean, to find out hotel in, you know, in n or in Bor or in Madrid, Orna, you know, and, and so on.

So you, you somehow learn.

So it is actually, uh, fascinating.

And sometimes you are lucky.

So if you find a driver that knows the way and knows how to read maps too, because you know it quite an intensive, uh, part that expected you to give explanations to people that you know about uh, Whatever.

So I'm, I'm, I want to get to a point, cause I feel like now we've got to this stage where you found the career.

Yeah.

And this job was something you loved.

It meant that you could travel.

And so linking it back to what you said at the beginning is in Sardinia, you would look across the sea and you were curious about what's on the other side.

Yeah.

And now you have this job that actually takes you all over the place, using all the knowledge you've got through art history and um, and history in general.

And this idea of also being with people, I'm, I'm curious about that choice of job.

It took you trav, it took you away from home a lot.

Yeah.

Um, and so there's one aspect of it was you loved the job, but another aspect I think there was around the, the amount of money it made for you or the security it created for you because of it was a well paid job compared to lots of other jobs.

. Luigi: It was, yes, it was well paid.

Yeah.

And, and so an element of this is like, is it is a fascinating journey of, uh, and the thing that kept on coming up again and again was like, I can only go so far if I know this much.

And so in order to go further, you needed to push yourself to learn something new or to go somewhere new.

Another element of like these opportunities that came up, these people that would present a new pop opportunity for you, you were very happy to take it because it was very much around.

I want to go further.

I think come to a point if you, I mean, I heard you many times that the way you talk to people is that they should enjoy the job.

And, uh, once you have found what you enjoy, then you know, then you, you just keep it, uh, um, I, I mean, I didn't, uh, I don't even have the personality to become a manager of, of a company or, you know, it takes some other, so I know my limits.

I think one of the things is that you should identify your limits, you know, that you can go only so far.

And if you do something well.

In those days, luckily this, the job of tourist escorting or to managing as it was called, was well paid, and therefore I was able to bring you up to give you the thing.

So, for instance, to come to the things, why did I do that?

Because I had been deprived of education, so I promised myself that whatever it would take, I would give my children the opportunity to study to better themselves.

I do believe in education because it's the key to everything, to understanding, to, to grow, to, you know, all sorts of things.

So therefore, to me that was very important and I think I did sacrifice and I.

I don't, one can apologize, but I did it with a good intention.

And I think also you, I was lucky that I found after, you know, I was already over 30, 33 when I met your mother, I was, uh, uh, I found the person that accepted the, the situation I did, I was pretty clear because I met her on a tour in the first place.

Okay?

So therefore I tell her, say, listen, I'm not going to change my job.

I love my job.

It's well paid, so why change?

You know?

Um, and she accepted it.

And, uh, thank God that she was able to compensate my lack of being present to look after you and do whatever it took to bring you up, all the three of you.

You learn also from your friends, you know, like for instance, I had a friend who got married and a child and then he couldn't afford the flat and he was working, uh, three jobs to, and uh, so I said, no, no, before actually I get I must have a house.

And that's what he did.

We bought the house before I got married a little bit before.

So, so what does it mean that you have a base that can work?

And that we learned it actually from being a shepherd, from being that, that, you know, things don't come out of the sky unless you are very lucky.

You have to work for them and above also keep them, you know?

So I think I've been double lucky, um, you know, to have found your mother, the person that helped me to, to continue in the job, which I enjoyed.

And I think, I hope you appreciate yourself as a person yourself, that you got, uh, somebody like your mother that was totally dedicated to you in every possible way.

And she made up for my absence many times.

So then what, what is my advice?

What, try to find the person, the right person for yourself.

Try to find the right job for yourself, which en uh, enjoyed if you don't go up to be, I don't know, managing director of some big company.

Well, as long as you enjoy it, you know,

it's definitely a, the story the you followed or that you've told is very much around you are always looking to grow, it sounded like you're always looking to, um, expand your knowledge.

Um, there was also commitment to the hard work.

You are very much a hardworking person.

Yeah, well, I, I mean, you know, I can be a little bit lazy sometimes.

Certain things on, on the other hand, I think I always put, uh, priorities, uh, I, to me it didn't seem to work because I was doing the things I enjoyed.

So, or I didn't really feel that kind of, uh, boredom or, you know, it's a, like the person works from nine to five, so to, to say very often they're looking for Friday, Saturday, they are free.

One of the reasons we were talking is this idea of being a good dad.

Yeah.

And so I'd be curious to hear from you what that means, uh, given your own experience of being a son and also what you wished to, how you wish to be as a father, and whether that was something that was always on your mind.

Had you a picture of what fatherhood meant to you?

I think you do it by, uh, imitation.

Is it, is that the right word?

That you look at your father, at your grandparents and the other people that you were close when you were young.

Um, the main thing in those days was, uh, the lack of things.

In other words, uh, you know, the after the war was tragic times.

So therefore, one of my concerns was that I should have the means, especially to look after you and educate you.

And I sacrificed the amount of time.

Part of that I enjoyed the, the job, but I sacrificed the amount of time I dedicated to you to make sure that you would've the means to study if you so wanted.

So my, my priority was yes, I must give the opportunity to my children what I lacked.

I don't know what I would've done, but I was, I have enough talent.

I remember I was one of the top three in the class, you know, they would give you a problem, you know, to this, and it was be solved even before I got out of the class.

So, uh, that was the homework.

Uh, so I knew that I had a kind of talent.

But I was not allowed to develop it.

So my main idea was, yes, I must, and I put it up as a priority.

And which, uh, now sometimes I think I've said to you, I think you are a much better father than I have been to you.

The fact that I see you dedicate a lot of time to your children and you take them here, and then you can't say that I took you, uh, I'm sorry I didn't.

But, uh, my priorities very different.

And to make also, uh, safe that, uh, don that we have enough means to be able to see us through.

And so, so that was my priority really.

And, uh, that's the way I've been brought up and, and that's what I transmitted.

Now, I don't really know, um, your friends yourself, you know.

Of course I loved you.

I cared for you because sometimes you, although you don't, might say, I love you to your children directly.

Sometimes some people do, but you know that you care for them because you provide them.

You, you do thems you, you know, you've been taking your children here and then, so I tried to do the same to you.

You know, I think I took you to this new world.

I took you, I think, to France.

Um, obviously you have been many times you have been to the Philippines and so on.

no.

I, I, you know, I think this, it's really, and we've talked about this quite a lot, but it's, it's for me, um, fascinating and also I, I totally appreciate, you know, you as parents, we, we try and give our children something that we might not have had ourselves.

Um, uh, but at the same time, I, I'm, you know, I, I hope you know that I'm so grateful for what you've done for me and, and, and my siblings and the opportunities that we've had.

And yes, there is a bit of sadness because we didn't necessarily bond as when we were young and have that time together as much.

I saw other kids having, but like you said, I know that there's love there and I know that there's, there's care.

Uh, and I think that for me is, is part of this, and part of all the conversations we have is just understanding more about, you know, your own journey, what motivated you and how that also influences me and how I'm with my children.

And, and not necessarily just being reacting to things that we don't have, but also appreciating the stuff that, the, the sentiment behind it.

Yeah.

I, I, you know, I can see that you followed a similar path that, uh, for instance, you were starting to learn something, then you changed, and then you changed again.

And I personally did it the same.

Uh, I didn't plan it, I just followed my instinct.

And, uh, you know, and that is quite important for anybody, you know, to, to be able to, to change, to renew yourself or, I, I don't find the right word, to be able to, to change your attitude, to also, to adapt to other situations which they are going to emerge, you know, like now and so on.

But also another thing I would like to add is if you also spoil your children to the point, uh, that they don't know the balance, you know what I mean?

That certain values cannot be, uh, overturned.

So as long as they follow a certain path, you can be tolerant, you can beat it.

But one is it's not so easy to try to.

to, to find that kind of balance because sometimes children are so over spoiled, but then in the end they don't achieve anything at all.

Or they think that is all due to them.

I mean, I have a premium in, in our own family and friends and cousins and so on to see spoiling, uh, too much your own children trying to be too good without, you know, showing them the borderline that you cannot, certain things.

Yeah.

I also not beneficial, so.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I personally will tell you now in public I have a great admission.

I think you are doing pretty well.

Good job.

You know, personally, I feel pleased and proud.

The way you have been bringing up your children is, is fantastic.

I, I would say it's, it's the desire of any grandparent anyway, personally.

I see it that way.

Thank you.

And it's simply bravo.

And I hope that,

uh, and that's the only reason I got you on here to inflate my ego in front of everyone.

Anyway.

Before we end then, um, any final thoughts?

Well, my goodness, uh, you know, it goes without saying.

I think, uh, uh, I think you're doing very well and I hope you, uh, I would simply say keep up the good work, uh, because it is important that I, you know, that they are doing well.

And, um, I think, yeah, that's as much as you can do.

Keep up the good work.

Then you don't really know exactly what will happen.

Because as you can see, um, including me and many other people I've known, sometimes by meeting a person or something might change your life and you are going to control at a certain point what the decisions of your children, you know?

Now you have the power to advise them and possibly even stop them from doing certain things should not be wrong.

However, once they go over a certain age, you know, they, they have their own mind and they make their own decisions and look fully.

The main thing is to, uh, sometimes, uh, that they can learn from, um, you know, from, from you, from your examples.

You know, for instance, I give you an example which influenced me.

For instance, take that with my father, obviously living, being in the war so many times.

He was a smoker, very heavy smoker.

He used to smoke 40 cigarettes a day, and I think I was about eight or eight years old, and he used to cough, cough, cough, cough.

Then one day he was so upset with himself, he took the cigarettes out of his pocket and he threw them in the dust bin.

And then he turned to me saying, don't ever start smoking.

Now, what would a next year old think of it?

Nothing.

When I was about 15, you know, I was starting to go out in Budo.

I became a EMK with the new music, you know, from Poland.

I bought myself a saxophone and started to learn how to play, you know, and so on.

And obviously the girls, you know, they are, they admire starts.

And then I started, I bought a packet of cigarettes and I realized, uh, that uh, after one packet I was getting hooked.

And I flashed back to what my father had said possibly seven, eight years before.

And I said to myself, I don't really need to smoke, do I?

You know, I was very happy before.

And actually I didn't smoke except passive smoking in the restaurant , which unfortunately didn't do any good in the too.

Like I was, there was a lot people could smoke in restaurants.

Mm-hmm, it was pretty bad.

But, uh, but, but now to show you sometimes a little incident in your life, uh, it might change your decision, what to do.

Mm-hmm, you know, nobody knows whom your children are going to meet, uh, the way they're going to be influenced.

How inspired, sometimes, you know, you take somebody to see a ballet and all of a sudden that person becomes a ballerina, you know, because, or whatever.

Mm-hmm, it's a little bit what you meet and so on.

I, to tell you the truth, I'm very happy with the things I've done.

I think I've had great life, uh, from that time.

I've worked all the time.

I'm still working somehow in a, a certain way or the other.

Uh, and, and, and, and, uh, I suppose it's better not to work because otherwise you're going to, you know, fossilise, and that's the last thing I would like to have to be, you know, be fossilized.

I hope I don't lose too much in my mind, you know, that's all I can

Well, well, let's see.

Fingers crossed.

Um, yeah, no, I, I, there's, like you said, once our children get to a certain, and I'd, I'd say most of the time we don't necessarily con we can't control what they do and how they think, but we can influence through our own, I think behavior and, and our values and, and the way we turn up and the way we behave.

I think there's some level that that comes across.

And just to say, you know, one of the things I definitely know I've inherited from you is a sense of discipline and being able to make decisions and commit to something and, and push through.

And I, I appreciate that and I value that.

Uh, and it's something that, again, many things that we inherit in terms of behaviors and, and, and patterns, which I think are useful and sometimes not always useful, but that's okay as well.

So thank you very much, dad.

And thank you mom.

You're welcome.

Well, thank as well, because she did come out the job.

Well she, she, she had her turn last year, so it's okay.

Okay.

Well thank you very much everyone, for everyone who persisted.

I'm so glad.

Look, there's loads of messages of thanks coming, so you enjoy that.