STEM subjects are notoriously hard when home educating but they are also rightly popular with our innovated home ed children. So today I am joined by Caroline and Farah to discuss how we can empower our home educated children to study STEM subjects and move into university courses and beyond.

With Farah Khan and Caroline Mukisa, expert guests spanning a wide range of education systems, including UK and international schools, university admissions, as well as home education.

Join their STEM WhatsApp chat here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/DTsV2j9axnxIJNw5ARcMDo?mode=wwc

Links referenced in this episode:

• threeblueonebrown
• bisonmaths
• royalinstitution
• isaacscience
• drhannahfry
• mathsforgirls

Welcome to Home Education Matters, the weekly podcast supporting you on your home education journey.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Home Education Matters.

And today I'm joined by Farah and Caroline from the UK STEM uni group.

And we are going to be talking about how to go about applying to university to do a STEM subject, being at university, doing a STEM subject, doing A levels that are STEM and just all things kind of STEM Y, which makes me feel like we're talking about biology and.

Or what were those things in flowers?

You know, in biology.

That's the only thing I remember, and I don't remember it.

That is biology all over for me.

It was such a totally pointless science.

I'm not going to talk about biology.

I'm going to talk about stem.

So, Farah and Caroline, thank you so much for joining me today.

Could one of you tell us a little bit about the group that you've set up and your kind of journey into that?

Okay, so.

Hi, I'm Farah.

Yeah, we came together.

We've been friends for a long time, Caroline and I, and we, incidentally, we.

I think we're friends initially.

We were both maths teachers when we met.

And, you know, we.

It's.

We've always kind of connected and all things maths, STEM university.

We have children who are similar ages, so we've always talked about these things with each other.

And last summer we sort of came together thinking about all some of the challenges around STEM education, how we have all this sort of combined knowledge with having been through the process with our.

With our students and as well as our children.

And we thought, you know, why not share this knowledge with the community?

And with that in mind, we kind of decided to launch this WhatsApp community called the UK STEM unique WhatsApp group.

And within a very short span, it seems to have grown quite quickly.

We've got about 400 members now, and there seems to be quite a demand for it.

So, yeah.

Caroline, do you want to tell us something about the group and what led you into it?

Yeah.

So I basically, whenever I meet anyone, I just either talk about, do you lift?

Sorry, the wrong podcast.

Or lift.

What do you lift?

Because I lift.

That's weightlifting, isn't it?

Weightlifting?

Not shopping bags.

You know, I do have children.

I have to tell you everything I know about education, and I've known Eleanor for too long as well, and we've often had those conversations about, let's talk about everything we know about education and everything we can share and everything we can find out.

So I thought this was.

Rather than bombarding people with my knowledge, I could actually do it in a structured way.

It was good that I found a partner, Farah, who can kind of make sure I don't bombard people too much and try to share my knowledge in a structured and creative way.

It's been quite exciting seeing the group grow.

We.

Sometimes we post videos.

So my last video was about how to use LinkedIn to find out about courses you're interested in.

Sometimes we post infographics in the, in the group.

It's not one of those groups where everyone can reply to each other.

So we have a Google form where people can send questions.

So if people do join the group, it's not going to be your WhatsApp going, ping, ping, ping, ping.

We just post maybe five or six times a week and then.

Yeah, and then we ask obviously for feedback via the Google form.

So it's a WhatsApp group?

It's a WhatsApp group, yes.

Okay.

We decided to start there because it's more personal and as well.

And people.

Yeah, it's.

It's less formal.

So what made you both think that we needed to have a group talking about stem?

What is it about stem?

So, first of all, you could define STEM for us for anyone who's maybe a bit unsure because a lot of our listeners aren't in the school system.

So these kind of acronyms, you know, like slightly pass us by joyfully as home educators.

But also, what, what was it about STEM that made you think, okay, people need support in this area?

So STEM stands for science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

It's an intersection of those disciplines.

And in the case of Caroline, and I think, let me just tell you a little bit about who I am and maybe Caroline can do the same.

I came at it, sorry, from a, From a point of being a head of maths.

So I've been teaching maths for about 15 plus years and then I've been head of maths and a six form tutor who for the last five or six, where I came from, I saw lots of girls looking at STEM subjects in those areas and thinking, you know what, I'm not sure if I'm good enough to apply to this or, you know, I think there's a bit of a shortage of role models in the STEM industry.

Historically has been.

It's been a bit of a challenge getting girls into STEM education.

There's also a bit of a disadvantage gap around stem.

And those are all things that have always been in the back of my mind.

And I've been someone who wants to be a proponent for getting girls and generally as many students as possible into STEM subjects.

And the challenges lie in sometimes, you know, not having enough information about things like university taster days and feeding and all of these things.

And I felt we have this wealth of knowledge.

Why not put it out there?

Why not share it with the community so we can sort of lift up the profile of the people who apply to STEM and allow access to people who may not otherwise have access to STEM subjects.

And also this idea, I think another thing that drove us was this idea of all I can do with a maths degree is accounting and finance.

And, you know, there is so much more.

We talk about this a lot.

There's a vast amount that you can do with a maths degree.

And us being both maths educators, I think we felt we needed to kind of expand people's horizons with what maths can do for them.

That's interesting because I always thought that the only thing you could do if you had a maths degree was become a maths teacher.

So I had never even occurred to me that you needed a master degree to be an accountant.

I'm pretty sure you don't.

I think you just do, like exam.

Sorry.

But anyway, so that's very interesting because I know that when my son was looking at a physics degree, I pretty much said to him, well, yeah, that's fine, but you know what, do you either become an academic or you become a physics teacher?

And Caroline, when I spoke to her and I was like, no.

Wrong.

So it's really interesting.

Caroline, tell us your story.

So I'm actually an engineer.

I did engineering as my degree.

So I'm.

I'm actually a fake maths teacher.

I've always been super passionate about STEM and girls in stem.

I've actually got three boys, two of whom I homeschooled.

So, yeah, if I talk a bit about the homeschool journey, I homeschooled one child from about age 7 until age 16 and then he decided to go to school for sixth form.

And then the other child from my other son from age 12, and he's just started his A levels now.

Home, home, educating A levels as well.

So that's been a, you know, nearly the end of my homeschool journey in the next few years.

We've always been quite a stemi family.

My husband did a degree in maths, I did civil engineering.

We met at university.

Our children have all done maths A level.

My daughter is.

She did computer science and is a Software engineer.

So we kind of are that nerd family.

The word nerd is actually seen as a compliment.

As such.

Rightly so.

Exactly.

And I think it's just as well.

Meeting my son, my eldest son, he did a maths degree and then has done a maths masters and now he's doing a PhD and actually connecting with all his colleagues or the other his fellow students has been amazing just to see the kinds of careers they've gone on to.

One of them has gone into quant finance and is earning gabillions amounts of money.

One of them is a, is the mathematician in a biochemistry lab in a university.

There's so many, there's such a wide range of careers you can do with a maths degree.

It's amazing and I don't think people know that.

It's definitely not just teaching or going into academia.

There's so many different paths.

I think one thing we posted recently on the group, if you allow me to get super enthusiastic again for a moment, was that the, what's it called?

The race director.

So the, the chief of strategy at McLaren F1 champions this year, he was a STEM maths graduate from Oxford University.

So you know, he studied math, he did A level maths just like a lot of students do.

And now he's basically got the coolest job in the world telling the drivers exactly, you know, drive like this and put more of this, pump more of this thing in and you know, it's just like super cool.

And there's so many different careers.

We're going to be posting lots of that in the WhatsApp group because we keep on sending each other's message, each other messages, me and Farah saying, look at this, this is cool kind of thing.

So yeah, we're sharing with the passion and enthusiasm and you know, lots of nerdery as well.

You're flying the flag for STEM nerdery.

Okay, I like that.

So when it comes to stem, you obviously sound like you're both very stemmy and I have a child who's very stemi and a child who's not at all stemi.

Now I can safely say that home educating my non stemi child has been a lot easier and cheaper than home educating my stemi child, particularly through A levels.

Now when you home educate someone who's interested in stem, it's quite difficult at A levels, isn't it?

To home educate stem because science A levels require practicals where they don't, they don't have to.

I know, but a lot of universities really will Want you to do practicals, then you.

So you have to pay for the practicals.

A levels themselves are expensive.

So talk to us about the challenges of.

I don't want to say teaching stem, but talk to us about the challenges of home educating STEM subjects from like GCSE through A level.

Yeah, I think for my, my first homeschooler, I think one of the reasons he decided to go to school for sixth form is that he really loved chemistry.

And we just casually went to an open day at a local school, sixth form, just because it had nice buildings and nice grounds.

And as soon as he saw the science labs, he said, I want to come here, please.

Because he'd never done chemistry experiments, not proper chemistry, maybe some of the home ones that we can do, but he hadn't done real.

Hadn't been in a real lab, hadn't used a Bunsen burner.

So, yeah, that is obviously a disadvantage.

I think there are some courses around the country that run to.

To actually.

So you can actually do the practicals.

But again, it's the timing, it's accessibility.

Is it local to you?

So that was one of the reasons my older son, he's actually homeschooling A levels, he's doing A level chemistry, but he's doing that with an online school.

And he'll be doing the international A level, which has just been introduced, hasn't it, into the uk, I think, the past few years.

So in the international A level, the practicals are tested through questions on the paper, so there's no need to actually do the practical separately and it's completely accepted by all the universities in the UK as an alternative to the standard.

That's very like the international GCSE in that way then, where you have to do, you have to understand how the practicals work.

But you are tested as part of the written exam.

Exactly.

It's totally like that, yes.

Do you worry then that he's going to miss out on the Bunsen burner stuff?

You know, because I know that when I spoke to a biology, when I did the biology podcast, I spoke to.

I spoke to the biology teacher as part of the biology podcast and I said, you know, I really worry that home educated children miss out on the practical side of science.

And she said, I really think you overestimate how much actual practical stuff they do at school.

She said, quite often they don't actually have a specialist teacher, they don't have the health and safety to be able to do the practicals.

You're talking like one or two A year, if you're lucky.

And a lot of those aren't the fun stuff that you might remember from school with the like, you know, burning magnesium and seeing the white flame or whatever.

Actually, I probably got that color wrong.

But anyway, so do you.

But do you feel that, particularly at A level that your son, who's home educating and he's.

And he just learning about the experiments rather than doing them, that he's going to miss out on an element of.

That that is interesting?

I mean, there are summer schools where I guess they can go and actually play around with it.

But he, he personally has not had the same motivation to actually, you know, go and blow things up and make flames, etc.

So.

And he actually, he's not interested in doing a pure STEM course for a degree level.

He's actually interested in linguistics, which I feel is actually quite scientific because it's the science of languages.

So again, stem doesn't necessarily have to be like the stamen or the flame or the equations.

The stamen, that was the word I was looking for.

I might be wrong.

So when it comes to doing the practicals at A level, you're saying that there's two options really.

You can either embrace the fact that you're home educating and you don't need to do the practicals and just do the international A level, do the written bit and just understand, watch the YouTube videos, kind of understand exactly how it works.

And any that you can do at home, I'm guessing you could do at home, because I know that when my daughter was doing biology, gcse.

I'm going to slam biology again here.

The experiments were like super basic.

They were like so easy to do.

It's like put a potato in some water or something.

I mean, it was like crazy.

So we could do all of.

Pretty much all of the GCSE experiments, I seem to recall, at home pretty easily.

But for A level, there are two routes, aren't there?

You could either, as I say, embrace just not doing it and that's okay, or you can use one of the centers where you go and you spend, I think, a week there and you do all the practicals.

And I think there's pluses and minuses for both, aren't there?

Because I know that when my son went to do his physics practicals, it was really expensive, you know, because we had to stay in a hotel.

It was up in Liverpool.

It was biograd in Liverpool.

They were very, very good.

And he really loved his week.

It was the first time he'd done Any practical science really, because obviously he'd home educated all the way through.

And it was that week when he did his practicals that made him think, okay, instead of doing a physics degree, I'm going to do an engineering degree.

Because he just really loved the actual practicalities of what he was doing.

And that week was seminal for him because he changed his entire.

He segued completely off from doing physics or maths degree to doing an engineering degree.

So it was really good for him, but it was really expensive for me.

You know, the actual week and the hotel travel there and back.

And then on top of that you have the A level.

So it's one of those, isn't it?

When I feel a little bit like STEM subjects, particularly at A level, but also A level generally is one of those times when as home educators, money really matters, doesn't it?

Yeah, I would say.

But maybe Farah wants to talk a bit more about this.

On the other hand, maths A level is a super easy one to self study at A level.

As a home educator, Farrah, do you want to talk about because you home educated yourself in GCSE maths?

Yeah, so, so exactly.

Both your stories took me back to my time when I sort of left year nine and decided, you know, my parents and I decided it was better for me to home educate myself.

And with science I have these funny memories of GCSE chemistry, going to a tutor's house and doing experiments with Bunsen burners in his kitchen.

I can't speak to the health and safety with Saudi Arabia at the time, but it was a lot of fun and I remember that being something that's stuck in my mind.

So perhaps there are some A level tutors.

I don't know if there are today who still do things like that.

But when it comes to the other side, you know, maths on the other hand, is a subject which is really a lot easier to self educate in.

Even when it comes to A levels you don't have that practical challenge.

But also the resources out there are phenomenal.

Like in terms of, you know, every exercise is there in video format, explained on websites that are free.

There's YouTubers galore.

If you do A level maths.

I recommend Bison Maths highly for A level maths and for the maths I know, for me I'd recommend them to my students.

Even as a maths teacher, there's so many online resources and free and paid out there to practice as well as just, you know, increase your maths knowledge that, you know, I think it might balance out some of the challenges with the sciences perhaps.

Yeah, that's really valid and I'm glad you've segued to kind of maths because I'd like to work our way through the acronym, I think.

So we've done science.

You can do it practical, you cannot do it practical.

Practical.

It is expensive if you do it at A level, but it can be really rewarding.

But you don't necessarily need to, there's other options.

Maths, you're right.

I think maths is one of those that you really.

It's a classic home educating subject in as much as you don't even need to buy the textbook, you can literally just watch YouTube videos and do it for free.

Right.

So especially if your child is mathsy.

And realistically, I know this isn't the case in school, I know that a lot of children in school now do maths A level as pretty much a standard thing, but in home educating world, I feel that children who are opting to do maths A level as a home educated child are pretty good at maths.

You know, they're not just like, you know, okay, I got a C at gcse, I'll probably do this.

They tend to be, I sat the GCSE at 14, I'm bloody brilliant at maths.

And that's great.

Right, so maths is self studyable, but obviously there's other routes, tutors and online schools and all of that stuff.

So what about then the.

Oh, before we move off sciences, Is there a science that you think is particularly good to study as a home educator or if you want to go into a STEM subject to university?

Is there a science that you think is really great to study at university?

Is there like, do you have like a favorite child when it comes to the sciences?

We won't tell the other children, don't worry.

It's just between us.

Oh well, I myself personally took physics, maths, economics at A level, so chemistry scares me and biology just seems to be lots and lots of facts.

But physics, so I'm a physics person, obviously I did engineering, so I guess I'm team physics.

Team physics.

What about you?

I want team chemistry.

So my daughter did chemistry and it was a funny subject where she started off not liking it, realizing it's quite difficult.

But then as she did it and as her conceptual knowledge got deeper, she started to love it.

And I often say maths and chemistry or maths and physics.

I think those two combinations open up the most doors at uni.

I mean if you know, you're going to be an engineer, then do maths and physics, but if you're not quite sure, then maths and chemistry kind of opens up a lot of degree options.

And then you have, you know, so much choice.

But either way, I think the key thing here is maths in itself is.

Is a real door opener when it comes to uni.

So, yeah, between the sciences, though, I'd probably pick chemistry as my favorite.

After, after dissing biology, I will say that I'm.

I'm going to do a post in the Ruk stem uni WhatsApp group because I discovered the dermatology side of Instagram about six months ago.

My duck spots underneath my eyes have gone, as you can see.

And.

And I follow.

One of the influences I follow is this a guy called Dr. Julian Nass.

And he did.

He's American and he did a maths degree as his undergraduate, and then as his master's degree, he did biostatists.

He's a biostatistician, basically.

But he always was interested in cosmetics and dermatology.

So he was actually had a little YouTube channel on the side and then an Instagram thing on the side where he was reviewing different products.

But now his job is basically.

He's merged his maths and a bit of biology.

His job is to basically help companies make new formulations for products like sunscreens and for, you know, our different serums.

And it's just like, look where math can take you.

Because you need the math to figure out, you know, the different quantities.

And of course, you need the biology to figure out the different reactions.

But there's so many cool jobs that, that can, you can go on to.

I'm going to say something super controversial now and say that if my son did a math degree and then, like, was a biostatistician and then just made makeup, I was like, what the hell are you doing with your life, boy?

Anyway, so that's just me being very controversial.

So let's.

So we've got a team physics and a team chemistry.

And Caroline, of course, can't leave biology out because it would feel sad.

So we were also kind of team biology.

What about astronomy or human biology or any of these kind of things?

Oh, silence.

I mean, all of these areas can be combined with things to create really lucrative careers.

I mean, I know astro astrophysics and aerospace engineering and things like.

This is definitely.

If you take, say, maths and astronomy scenario, you could go into.

There's.

What was the other subject that you were mentioning?

Aside from biology.

Astronomy.

Astronomy.

Human biology.

Human biology.

Ah, interesting.

So, I mean, I can't speak to medicine specifically, but I know, I mean, human biology and maths in itself is a combination that can lead you into the whole bioinformatics, computational biology, that side of things as well.

So there's definitely.

You can get really creative when you start to combine subjects that don't necessarily always come to mind as classic combinations.

And then there's the whole world of maths and art and architectural engineering.

And, you know, that's what my son was looking at, for example.

I mean, there's so many interesting combinations.

I think they say that these days you might end up, you know, looking at jobs that don't even exist yet.

So I think you have to be really, the more interdisciplinary you can be with your studies, the more you kind of are opening up options for yourself.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of interdisciplinarity.

That's really interesting you say that, because I've got a question about that that I will come back to you with.

But Caroline, you wanted to say something?

Yeah, and remember, we've got subjects like geography and we've got environmental management, which use a whole lot of maths.

So G. I don't know if you heard of G. So that's basically how they use technology and mapping and, you know, really sophisticated mathematics to.

To.

To enhance maps and to figure out exactly how many birch trees are there in British Columbia.

Actually, that's the job my friend's son actually does.

He's mapping British Columbia and environmental management.

I've got another friend and he's doing a master's degree basically in environmental management and basically how the effects of us ruining the environment, how that is changing different areas of the world and learning how to map that and use technology to really find out what's happening and how can we save the planet.

What I hear is that there's a lot of different kind of jobs that we maybe aren't even aware of.

I think when it comes to A levels and choosing sciences, one thing I have learned the hard way is that you need to kind of know what you want to do at university when you're choosing your A levels.

I have heard that when it comes to maths and science, you need your A levels, particularly in the uk, to be very maths and science.

Like to sort of say, all my hobbies are around science.

All my summer schools are science.

All my, you know, every book I've ever read is about maths.

You know, that's What I hear in all of the university groups, but far I, I hear from you that actually you can throw these, these kind of offshoot ones in.

I think if you, it depends on who you are.

So if you're someone who knows your heart is set on engineering or on a particular type of STEM related subject, fair enough, go for it.

You know, do that maths further maths physics combo and go for it.

But more students coming out of GCSEs don't have a clue.

And I think education should be about exploring your brain, you know, and your brain can often be, for many clever kids, that the left and right side of their brain that they want to explore.

So I mean, my daughter was in this very classic dilemma where she was really good at her maths and chemistry and all that, but she was also really good at linguistics and a few other things that, you know, she was a bit unsure what to do.

And these days I think careers are no longer linear in the way that we sort of grew up with.

You can pivot into all sorts of interesting careers.

So she's ended up going into behavioral sciences because she took psychology as well.

And you know, you can do all sorts of modeling of the brain with psychology and math sort of skills combined.

And so that sort of interdisciplinarity has served her well.

And she's doing this really interesting degree at UCLA called Bachelors of Arts and Sciences.

And what that is, it's a bit like a liberal arts degree, a little bit like that.

It sort of gives you an option of doing a major in, in her case is neuroscience.

But you can do whatever you like and you can do a minor in her case that is creative studies.

So she chose to take a language, she chose to take, you know, journalism kind of video journalism kind of courses.

And you know, I always think like, who knows where in her career these skills will end up being really useful.

Like people who do, for example, scientific journalism, that is, that's a field that combines a whole host of things that, you know, conventionally you might not think of when you're first planning ahead.

So you don't know where your career journey is necessarily going to take you.

And I think something that makes you versatile, dynamic, interesting, unusual, can only benefit you.

It might not be as easy to sort of carve out that pathway from the beginning.

But I think people find themselves along the way.

I feel like I completely agree and I feel like everyone listening would agree.

But.

But I guess my question is, do the universities agree when you're applying?

I think Universities are starting to see the light with this.

I'm starting to see more and more unusual degrees.

Like, when I say unusual, I mean maybe interdisciplinary degrees coming out.

And I think the UK is a little bit further behind in this area, like, so theirs are a little bit trickier and a little bit more streamlined.

But even then there are.

And I'm sure Caroline could speak to this.

I know sometimes Imperial Business School and others are coming out with broader degrees that address sort of two, three disciplines together.

And universities actually really like it when you've got, say you've got maths, you know, physics and history.

My niece actually did that.

She applied to Imperial for Civil engineering and that history was a plus because it made her stand apart from others, you know, who had purely followed that STEM route.

It just showed her as a more versatile kind of candidate.

And there is a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, kind of crossover between the way you think critically in history that you can.

And maps that you can kind of bring together.

And I had a student who could never choose between the two.

And it's a real dilemma.

But, you know, I. I just think there's not a harm in sometimes having a.

An option which is a little bit different in your A levels.

Yeah.

So I wanted to as well talk about one really popular degree at the moment.

It seems that everyone.

I'm a maths tutor, so all of my tutees seem to want to do an economics degree.

I know we're going to have an entire world of economists and I'm not sure that's a great thing, to be honest.

I'm not sure either.

But what's important is that actually a lot of the universities, they actually prize A level maths over A level Economics.

So it's often A level maths is the necessity rather than A level economics.

And talking about interdisciplinary degrees, Imperial College, they also have got a new course that they launched two years ago, which is called Economics, Data Science and Finance.

So they're like smashing lots of things together.

And back to biology, which we did this earlier.

They've.

Imperial also have a course, I think it's called Biotechnology Ventures with Management.

Yes.

So even some of these prestigious universities, I went to, Imperial, I won't put it in inverted commas.

These prestigious universities like Imperial College are actually diversifying their subjects and not just being nerdy, nerdy, since they realize there's commerce there and management skills are valuable.

Biotechnology Ventures, the degree that Caroline just mentioned is one that I've recently discovered and the subjects you need for it are biology, chemistry and maths.

And when students have these subjects, what do they think?

Usually they just think medicine.

They can't think beyond that one sort of specialty with those subjects.

But the world is expanding and this is where AI in particular, if you think about artificial intelligence, where it's being applied to, it's, it's bringing things together in a way that perhaps people wouldn't have realized because data is everywhere.

Data needs to be analyzed for all sorts of fields.

And so you could easily do, you know, data science and xyz.

And what that XYZ could be is getting larger and larger and larger because it's applicable to so many different areas.

I'm glad you brought the conversation around to AI, because I have a question about AI and I have a question about medicine.

So this is perfect.

My question about AI is as STEMI nerds.

Self proclaimed STEM nerds.

Right.

Are you worried about the impact that AI is going to have on students who are currently studying STEM subjects at A level and university and the world that they're going to be entering when they graduate?

I mean, are these jobs still going to be there that they're currently studying towards?

Shall I talk about it?

I mean, I'm just a huge fan of AI.

I mean, yes, I think it allows students, a nerd, to unlock their creativity because it's like when the calculator, the scientific calculator was invented, then mathematicians and physicists and engineers didn't have to spend time looking up in those books, like what is sine 30 basically?

Or cosine cos of the minus 1 of 2/5.

They could actually just quickly do the calculation.

And again, when computers were introduced, they could do all the calculations so much faster than humans.

So scientists could be more creative.

And again, with AI, it's going to give us nerds the power to actually just be more creative and think of more ideas and implement our ideas faster.

But isn't AI the ultimate nerd?

And as such, isn't it just going to put lots of nerds out of business?

I think things will evolve.

I think the human capabilities will definitely come back into the fray because.

There are some jobs that will be lost to AI, which AI can do a lot faster.

But it's such a tricky question because no one has the answer to it because that whole landscape is evolving so quickly.

One of the LinkedIn people I follow mentioned the gold rush.

We all feel like we're trying to catch up and we're all in this world where.

And it is very difficult to predict what the world will look like.

But what you can't do is put your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

I think everyone, like Caroline said, it's only to your benefit as a student, teacher, educator or parent to start engaging with it, start seeing what the capabilities are and actually using it in a way that keeps the human intelligence at the forefront.

So when I say that, I mean, don't use it to be a lazy sort of student, don't use it to just offload your cognitive capabilities.

Don't use it so it makes you dumber.

Make use it so that you leverage its capabilities.

But you are in charge of your learning and you use it in a way that you know that that is benefiting you, rather than just offloading everything to it.

Okay, that's reassuring.

My question about medicine is that I am a member of the what I Wish I Knew About University Facebook group.

I think that's what it's called.

It's got.

It's actually got an acronym, which is much easier, but I still can't remember that.

Anyway, it's a very good Facebook group for anyone whose child is looking at going to university.

But there is a constant discussion around medicine in it.

Because in the uk, I know that there is an issue with students who are going to study medicine.

It's a long process, like for five years or something, maybe more than that.

And the jobs at the end of it, they're just, just not there because there's not enough recruitment in the nhs.

So you've got all these medical students who can't actually complete their degrees because they can't do the final bits of their courses or they're not finding the jobs.

Is there a worry around studying things like medicine or doing stem, you know, doing the A levels as a home educator and thinking, yes, my child's going to become a doctor.

And then this world seems to have slightly disappeared from us.

Yeah, I can see that.

And also with computer science, my daughter did computer science degree how many years ago?

Six, seven, eight years ago.

And at that time it was actually.

She got in on it early, before you needed three A stars to actually do it.

But then it was like the gold rush, you know, got to do computer science, then I'll graduate now and be rich.

But then AI comes along and, hey, you don't actually, actually need to know how to write in Python because you could just say, please build me a website that does this.

So I guess, yeah, but I think even the skills that those medics have learned through their degree and those computer science students have learned they can use those skills to pivot into other areas.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

I, I also can imagine a lot of students who've spent five years studying medicine thinking, I don't want to pivot into something else, but I completely.

I know exactly what you mean.

It's.

It is one of those things where, whether it's STEM or any other subject, university, the world is changing and it's very difficult to predict sort of what you're going to get at the end of it.

A lot of it can be.

Is actually driven by politics and policies and we can't control that.

No, we just have to prepare our children.

Right.

And I think that's one thing about home education is you do prepare your child in that way because they have this inherent love of learning, they're autonomous learners, they take responsibility for their learning, etc.

I wanted to very briefly talk about further maths.

So when you're studying, if you're wanting to study a STEM subject at university, do you think that it's important to have maths and further maths as a home educator?

So further maths, right.

Gives you an advantage, but for specific subjects I'd say, okay, so when you're.

So I'm going to come back to economics for a minute.

I know it's not the classic STEM subject, but economics is one of those subjects where, if you're applying to economics and computer science and Caroline, do jump in if I'm not correct on any of this, basically I would say do your research when it comes to these things.

Okay.

Because it is a bit nuanced.

So if you're looking at a university where it says further maths is preferred, most students will look at that and say, oh, I don't really need to do it.

Do I really need to bother?

But then you really need to think, are you going to be one of those students who is at a disadvantage because you didn't do it and others did?

So if you're applying to, say, an Imperial as an example or Oxbridge as an example, then if the universities are looking at a pile of students and they're so competitive and you don't have further Maths whereas somebody else does, then you're putting yourself on a bit of a disadvantage straight away.

So if you're somebody who can, who's looking at that and it says preferred and you feel you can manage the four A levels or manage further maths and, you know, enjoy maths enough to put in that Time, then it definitely gives you a leg up.

Definitely gives you an advantage.

Yeah.

So do your research.

I think that's what I'd say because it is quite nuanced depending on the degree that you're looking at.

I've even heard things like natural sciences At Cambridge you get a bit of a, you know, an advantage if you've got further math.

It just gives universities a bit of a picture of you as a more academic student.

I'd also say that further maths actually gives you all the maths you need to know for a lot of these maths related degrees.

Apart from a maths degree.

Obviously you're going to learn a lot harder maths but if you're doing engineering, if you're doing something like economics, if you've done further maths, actually you've covered the basics of a lot of what you're going to learn at university and it's just going to make those, especially those first few years at university much easier.

Easier.

That's what my son has noticed.

He's only just started his engineering degree, but he's noticed that just doing the maths A level itself, the engineering part of the mass A level was always the easiest.

Engineering mass was always the easiest maths for him.

And so he's actually finding compared to like pure math and stuff, the engineering mass is like really quite nice.

Nice and easy.

So when we talk then about the E and the T bit of stem as a home educator, is there such a thing as an engineering A level?

Is there such a thing as a standard like technology A level?

And can you do those as a home educator?

Well that's interesting.

Farah, can you just Google that?

Put it into ChatGPT?

We're all about AI, right?

There's definitely no engineering A level.

There isn't an engineering A level Digital.

I thought there was.

I should be googling it then.

I, I would say it's one of those that home educators can't take.

In any case, even if it does exist, it's like A level geology.

Let me just see.

Can I speak to one the technology piece for a second?

So what does exist that I do know of and I know a lot of schools do this as well is is product design or design and technology as it's called in some schools.

And that is a really interesting one because again I was going to speak to that interdisciplinarity.

It's about designing solutions effectively.

Right.

Which can lend itself to engineering because engineering is about designing solutions as well and product design.

Students will often look at combining science, technology, et cetera to come up with their, their solution.

So that sort of is the closest thing I can think of to an engineering A level.

I don't, I can't speak to how you have more experience, Caroline, with home education and how well that fits in with home education, because I know, I know it requires things like 3D printers and CAD and it's quite specific equipment from what I've seen at schools.

My guess is that designer technology wouldn't be something you could do as a home educated child at A level would be my guess.

What do you think, Caroline?

Yeah, no, I, I, and there, there is no A level engineering.

I, I did look it up, so I, I did want to, I've just discovered recently these two, they're called institutes, I guess.

So there's these two institutes.

One's the Dyson.

What's it called?

Let me get the name right.

The Dyson Institute of Engineering.

Is that right?

And the New Model Institute for Technology and Engineering.

So they're two new universities where you can do bachelor's and master's degrees which are engineering related, but more like practical rather than the theory.

So I know the New Model Institute of Technology and Engineering.

You need BBC A level.

So where is it geographically?

Is it Hereford?

Is it Hereford?

It might be.

And then I think Dyson.

Is that in Reading?

Is that where they are?

I think they are in the south.

And for the Dyson degree you need aab.

But again, you get the chance to work with Dyson and have that amazing company experience with that amazing company as well.

So they're an interesting practical model for people who do want practical degrees.

So something that's going to look great on your CV in terms of looking for jobs as well.

So those are quite, I hadn't heard of them before.

That leads me to my last question.

Well, my penultimate question actually, which is that, are there any particular universities you would recommend for particular STEM subjects?

And I'd like you here to.

And I know you both went to very good universities in inverted commerce, right?

But are there, are there like slightly wackier universities?

I know that.

For example, I'll give you an example.

Bangor is really good for marine science.

Now who'd know, right?

Like, that's crazy.

And yet it is, it's like really, really good for marine science.

And, and I know that Lampeter, when I was, when I was looking at doing theology, Lampeter in Wales was really, really good for theology.

It was our best in the country.

And it's like, wow, that's crazy.

So are there any, any universities that maybe people aren't aware of that you think are particularly good for certain STEM subjects?

And of course, do tell us the ones that are the best, you know, sort of in the league tables and stuff for different STEM subjects.

So Loughborough is one that I came across because my son was looking at engineering and Loughborough's got amazing industry links and it's one that I hadn't thought of.

It's not one of those conventional Russell Group kind of unis that you think of, but actually, I mean, going to their open days and sort of exploring.

They have a lot of engineering degrees, they have a lot of links with industry.

So Caroline mentioned Formula One.

So I think automotive engineering is a particular one that they have links with Formula One.

And what they pride themselves at is sort of that you're in industry, they will link you up with, you know, really good work experiences, which is a really important thing to have these days and be employable at the end of the degree.

So that's definitely one unconventional one that stuck out to me that isn't perhaps in the top four or five that people think of with engineering.

Perhaps, Carolyn, you can speak to the top ones.

I know.

Well, yeah, obviously Oxbridge, interestingly, Oxford for engineering is a general engineering degree, whereas at Cambridge you actually do pick the specific branch of engineering you want to specialise in.

So pure engineers would say, oh yeah, the Oxford one is not a proper engineering.

I would never think of Oxbridge for engineering.

I always assumed you would need something that was a little bit more, you know, modern.

Okay.

Surely there must be some of the more recent, the, the universities that were technical colleges and, and, and those kind of things, you know, polys when I was growing up.

Surely they are better for engineering though, and technology.

Well, the standard one is Imperial, that's the, the best.

And, but also a Coventry University.

Interestingly, I came across them at one of these university.

Fairs where the universities come and gather and promote.

So they've built new engineering departments, they've got all these big wind tunnels and all the cool things to do, all the big experiments with.

So that, that was actually an interesting one that I heard about.

I have to plug UCL here because that's where my daughter goes.

So UCL has recently built a UCL East Campus, which is, again, they have a lot of these labs and, you know, sort of hands on engineering.

So I know architectural engineering is one that is definitely based on the UCL East Campus and there are probably quite a few other engineering Degrees that's definitely worth looking at because again, this is about getting disadvantaged students who may not have access to access into stem and they've decided to target the the east side of London with this and sort of give that accessibility to that with the campus there.

And it's purpose built, that campus.

So definitely one to explore for MADS related ones.

I'd also say Warwick and Bristol.

Bristol deserves a mention I think here because Bristol is another one that has quite a lot of good engineering degrees that you should look at if we're talking specifically about engineering.

And I know Warwick has things like unusual degrees like engineering, business, management, things like that, which is worth looking at again if you're thinking about combining a few subjects and having skills in management as well as engineering when you graduate.

What about maths then?

Top unis for maths?

Well, you've still got your Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial.

Warwick is high up there for maths as well.

Those are the four that come to mind immediately.

Are there any Scottish universities or Irish universities for example, or Welsh universities that are particularly good for STEM subjects?

Yeah, I think Edinburgh is excellent across the board.

And with the Scottish degrees you're encouraged to take courses outside of your major, as they say.

So you could do an engineering degree and actually take history classes and your history classes actually count towards your degree.

So even at Imperial, my son studied Mandarin for three years I think on the side and is actually intermediate level in Mandarin and went to China and actually used it.

So I think a lot of these universities, you know, you may think, oh yes, it's just nerdy and you could just do one thing.

But I think they realize that actually broadening the skills of their students is going to give them an advantage in life and in when they're job hunting as well.

You know, we've named some specific universities, but the best thing to do is actually go and start visiting them, go to the open days.

I actually start taking my children to open days when they're like 14, 15 years old just to brainwash them and say, look at this amazing place and study hard because then you can come here and see all this amazing stuff.

And even if you can't make it to open days, a lot of the universities have virtual open days.

So some of them are live or some of them are recorded and you can just put press play and see someone presenting the course.

But the live ones are quite good because you can type your questions in.

And one cheeky question I like to ask on these virtual open days are you say your entrance requirements are a A but actually, do you really mean the 3A?

If my child genuinely has a AA as predicted, do they actually have a chance?

Because that's the other thing that people need to be aware, particularly in these high demand degree subjects like the STEM subjects like law, like medicine.

Are they lying to you when they give you the entrance requirements?

Because we know some of these courses are so competitive that they can literally just decide to take, you know, autistic star students and they'll be fine.

I have a question about girls and women in stem, which I'm not sure you're going to be able to answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

For anyone whose home educated daughter wants to do a STEM subject at university.

Is there a university in particular or a course in particular that you think is more welcoming of women?

Because I know my son who's doing his engineering degree.

I said to him, many girls on your course, you know, and he was like, yeah, like one.

And I thought that is so disappointing.

And like, I'm perpetually disappointed by the amount of female students still in STEM subjects at university.

Is there a university that you think is really good for this?

That's such an interesting question.

I can't say there's a university that's really good up for this.

What I would say is there are a lot of initiatives out there to get girls into STEM, so first of all, join our WhatsApp group.

But also I think keeping an eye out for university initiatives that are targeting women and sometimes ethnic minorities as well is a really good way to go.

If you know you're looking at a particular university and you think they may, they may have specific sort of reduced entry requirements sometimes, sometimes specific courses, taster courses that are targeting women in stem.

I know Queen Mary's used to do a scholarship in this area, so do your research.

I'd say this goes alongside what Caroline's saying.

I think if you're a girl and you are saying year 10 or 11 and you think, you know, I like maths, but I don't know if this is for me.

I don't know if it's too male oriented a field.

Don't let that get you down, start doing your research early.

There are lots of extra initiatives that go on specifically for getting women into stem.

I know there's a group called Maths for Girls, Maths the number four and then girls, which specifically is working on this, creating, connecting girls with mentors so that they can speak to them.

But also these days a lot of universities have just.

Scott if you look at your course and you look at students doing them, you'll start to see more and more sort of female role models.

So you can connect with students who are in that area and then speak to them and have a chat about their experience.

Unfortunately, this is a challenge we're still grappling with, but it's getting better and it is definitely like I did computer science, software engineering in Toronto and it was the same kind of thing, 10% of the class was female.

But it's definitely getting better because I remember back then just having a female professor made all the difference, knowing that there were role models and there are more and more of them.

So I think connecting with a mentor and then having that conversation, which universities are making much easier nowadays, if you're looking on their websites and just finding that might change your mind.

A math degree, they, that usually it does have better stats.

Maybe it's 40 women and then obviously medicine is, is majority women.

Yeah, that's true.

So when it comes to my.

I've got two final questions, so my maths was out when it came to how many questions I had.

What is your top tip?

Each of you for a home educated student who's maybe 15, 16, about to start their A levels and they want to do a STEM subject at a university, what is your top tip for the parent or the child?

Start looking early.

So don't wait till you're in sixth form to start researching your options because when you kind of see that pathway for yourself, that makes it a lot easier to make your decision decisions around your A levels and it often hits students sooner than they think.

You know, it all starts to seem happening.

It seems to start happening, sorry, very, very fast.

So do your research in year 11, start looking ahead.

Year 10.

I'd even say there's no harm in going to open days like Caroline was saying since 14, 15, you know, go to those open days, get a feel, start finding out, start speaking to students, anybody in your network who is in university and asking them what they're studying.

Take an interest in people around you.

Make a LinkedIn profile.

That's another top tip.

Make a LinkedIn profile.

Don't wait for that.

It doesn't matter if there's not a lot on it, just some volunteer work or Duke of Edinburgh, whatever you've done, and then start connecting via LinkedIn with say students, you know, studying the sorts of things that you're interested in.

But definitely start your research early because being informed is the way forward.

Yeah, I agree.

Start, start early and also Embrace your waste of time.

So if you are interested in, you know, engineering or maths and you, you find yourself being really nerdy and looking at all the YouTube videos, embrace it.

Maybe just make a note of what you found interesting so that when it comes to writing your personal statement, you'll have a list of things.

Oh, yes, I was, you know, I remember that YouTube series I watched and this is what I found interesting about it.

And this is why I want to study xyz.

I think if I was going to give a tip, and I really am not qualified to give a tip about STEM subjects at university, but if I was going to, to, I would say to broaden your horizons when it comes to what you're looking at.

I mean, my son is currently in Germany doing a bilingual engineering degree.

It's costing me almost nothing.

And he's learning, he's going to be fluent in German by the time he finishes.

He's in a new country.

It's a great degree.

So even if engineering gets completely taken over by AI, at least he'd be able to speak bloody German at the end of it.

So, you know, like, there's, there's other options.

Options.

You don't just have to be like slogging your guts out to get into Imperial or Oxford or wherever you can, you can go to Cardiff University and do engineering and just have an amazing time and learn lots of wonderful skills and surf in the summers.

And so, like, I think that it's good to broaden your horizons.

Can I just, yeah, jump in with a little story here?

So one of my, one of my lovely ex students, she, she loved maths and she went to Swansea, which, you know, doesn't jump out in anyone's mind, but she got a scholarship and she is doing so well.

So she's now currently working at BUPA and insurance.

And, you know, it's just, she says being at Swansea is an interesting experience because it's not as intense as some of those like the ones we've been talking about, you know, Oxbridge and Imperial and all of that.

But she, she gets a lot of a chance to sort of explore other interests and, you know, university should be about exploring all your whole self, shouldn't it?

So, and I just love that, that she's been able to do that in that scenario, you know, So I love that you're saying broaden your horizons.

I totally agree.

My very final question, this is, my final question is what about some resources that you would recommend for home educated children doing STEM subjects?

Are there YouTube channels you particularly like podcasts, books, influencers, whatever.

Like other things that you think are really good.

Free resources or paid for resources definitely.

Have to jump in here.

So for maths there's this, this sort of creator he creates.

He's on YouTube as well.

He's called Three Blue, One Brown.

His videos are amazingly visual and because of exactly what you said, exploring sort of beyond, it's just for Matt's geeks like me, like, is just a dream come true.

Like he is amazing.

Three Blue, One Brown.

And he's completely.

He's not the typical.

Here's your curriculum, I'm going to teach it to you.

It's not to do with curriculum, it's just about exploring math and, you know, finding out whatever you're curious about.

I was saying Bison Maths for sure, but also Royal Institution is one.

If you're in the UK and looking university, you know, look at Royal Institution does a lot of interesting talks and gets a lot of speakers in.

Tom rocks.

I think the students themselves are the experts these days.

They know so many YouTubers and so many sort of resources that are out there that they can access, you know, with TikTok, Mac streams and all of that.

But yeah, I could go on forever on this topic.

I think Isaac Science is another one that I've come across recently which does a lot of free, you know, has free courses etc and all sorts of bits of science.

So a bit less maxi there.

Yeah, I think the Farah's mentioned, you know, all the great ones.

I'm a big fan of Dr. Hannah Fry, but I mean there's probably not that she's old, but there's probably younger and not that she's cool, cooler people to follow as well.

So I think the issue is there's so many resources.

I guess if you just open Tick Tock and start liking the science sciency things I think TikTok will find give will serve you some really excellent content.

So give yourself over to Tick Tock.

Yeah, Let the algorithm do the work for you.

Right.

There'll be some sort of clever STEM person behind the algorithm.

So let's go for it.

Well, Farah and Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

I know that the link to your WhatsApp group will be in the show notes.

Yeah.

Yes, I'm getting lots of nodding.

Good.

Okay.

So thank you so much for coming on and guiding us through stem.

And for anyone who's listening who would like to join the WhatsApp group, then do check it out.

I'm on it.

It's great.

Thank you again for coming on the podcast.

And happy stemming.

Happy nerd stemming.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining us for today's Home Education Matters podcast.

See you at the next one.

Have a lovely day.

It.