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Get ready for an enlightening and heart-opening conversation as we welcome the one and only Marianne Williamson (multiple NYT bestselling author and former presidential candidate) to High Vibin’ It! 🎉

In this profound yet down-to-earth episode, we dive deep into the transformative teachings of A Course in Miracles, The Mystic Jesus, and the power of love and forgiveness in today’s oh-so-divided society. Marianne shares her incredible journey through spirituality and politics, along with her unique relationship with Jesus—not as a religious figure, but as a consciousness you can call on anytime to help align your thoughts with God’s. (Yes, even if you’re not Christian.)

Here’s what you’ll soak up in this episode:

• Why love, forgiveness, and connection are non-negotiable if we don’t want to, you know, go extinct.
• The balancing act of despair and hope—and how we can guide each other through the messiness of societal change.
• What it means to be both a death doula and a birth doula for a higher reality (don’t worry, she explains!).
• Marianne’s mystical, inclusive take on Jesus and how He transcends all those limiting religious labels.
• How to call on Jesus for help—not just with your health, but with those negative thoughts too.
• The importance of love-based consciousness in a world that’s, let’s face it, pretty freaking polarized.
• How to "love thy neighbor", even when they’re annoying AF or voting for the other side.

We also get into Marianne’s bold (and we mean bold) step into the political arena and how her past campaign is still paving the way for a much-needed bridge between spirituality and societal change.

Whether you’re a die-hard fan of her books, curious about A Course in Miracles, looking to deepen your connection to Jesus, or just trying to figure out how to live a more love-centered life, this episode is going to leave you feeling inspired, empowered, and maybe even ready to hug your annoying neighbor. 💖

Tune in for a conversation that’s as thought-provoking as it is uplifting—and don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave us a review if this episode hits you in all the best ways!

Perks & Resources:

Marianne's Website: marianne.com

Connect with Marianne: @mariannewilliamson

Read The Mystic Jesus: amzn.to/49jiK5O

Read A Return to Love: amzn.to/3ZjeC15

Join our Patreon to support the show and get exclusive bonuses (the next live hangout is in Dec!): Patreon.com/HighVibe

Connect with Lynnsey & Kelsey on Social: @lynnseyrobinson @kelseyaida

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⚡Get Kelsey's Letters to The Universe Manifesting Journal

7:07 - Kelsey Aida

Hello, hello, High Vibin' It homies. Welcome back to another amazing episode of HiVivinIt. I am just ringing with excitement because today's guest is someone who's helped me so much on my spiritual and personal development journey. And you may have heard of her. Her name is Marianne Williamson. If you're new to her world or her work, she has been a leader of spirituality and progressive circles. She's written so many books, 16, maybe more since that bio was written books. I feel like you're always working on a new book, four of which have been New York Times bestsellers. One of my favorites is A Return to Love, but also her newest book, The Mystic Jesus, The Mind of Love, is what we're going to talk about today. And we just could not be more honored and blessed to be chatting with Marianne today. So thank you for being here and welcome to the show.

8:07 - Marianne Williamson

Oh, thank you. Well, it's great to be here.

8:09 - Lynnsey Robinson

I look forward to talking to you guys. So Marianne, normally when we have a guest, a lovely, wonderful human who wants to help the world on our show, sometimes people know who they are. Sometimes people don't. So I always ask about their path, but I feel like most people know your name or know who you are. So I mean, I guess just give us what you want us to know if somebody has just crawled out from under their rock and doesn't know Marianne Williamson, what would you most want them to know about you and your path leading up to today, really, whatever you want us to know about you?

8:44 - Marianne Williamson

Well, I've had a career for a little over 40 years. Basically, more than anything else, based on writing and speaking about a set of books called A Course in Miracles. And A Course in Miracles has been described as a self-study program of spiritual psychotherapy. So it's not a religion, although it's based on universal spiritual themes, and it calls itself a psychological mind training on the relinquishment of a thought system based on fear, and the acceptance instead of a thought system based on love. Another way of saying that is it's a course in how to forgive. It's a course a lot of ideas about living a more loving life, a more forgiving life, a more faithful life, in a way that involves many ideas we've all heard, thought about, read about, but in a way that guides us to their practical application in ways that I think can be very confusing for all of us. Truth is simple enough, but life is hard, life is complicated. And so it's one thing to say, we're here to love one another. But it's another to apply that at the deepest level when we're hurt, when we're betrayed, when we're wounded, when we're triggered. And I think that that's kind of where we are now. Not so much that we don't have the data we need to make our lives better. It's not that we don't have the data needed to repair the world. It's that what we know to be true bumps up against the ways we've been taught to think, the ways we've been taught to act, the way the world just is in ways that while they are unsustainable, dangerous, obviously not loving, are backed by so much money or so much power or so much technology that people today feel helpless to actually change things on some fundamental level. That people are realizing. I think it's now a mainstream understanding, in a way that it wasn't when my career began, that it has to begin with us, that it has to begin with our thinking. But this stuff can be difficult to apply in our own lives, too. We say we want to be more loving, but we have conflicts in relationships, or people hurt our feelings, or we haven't forgiven our parents or whomever. So that's what my work has been about, You know, whether it's that I'm talking about a book I wrote about Jesus or I'm running for president. Some people might look at that and say, well, those are two completely different things. But to me, they're not. Because whether we're talking about being better people or better nations or better species, really the questions are the same. Where does ethics come in? Where does honor come in? Where does forgiveness come in? Where does mercy come in? Where does love come in? Where does forgiveness come in? Atonement and making amends come in. So I think we're living at a time where you're either helping things lift up or you are contributing to something that's on the decline here. You know, this is not a neutral moment. And what you come to understand metaphysically is that there's no such thing as a neutral thought. Everything is either expanding love in the world, lifting up, repairing, regenerating the world, or contributing to a spiral or spiraling down in people's lives among nations, on the earth itself. So, rehearsal's over. There is that fence in the air, this is it. And to me, when I look at something like your podcast, anything we do that's a conversation among us, where we're discussing the things that matter most. Martin Luther King said, your life begins to end on the day you stop talking about things that matter. And so hopefully, my career has been spent to the best of my ability talking about things that matter. Mic drop.

12:45 - Lynnsey Robinson

There's been so much in this podcast episodes already that like, there's so many follow-up questions I have, but yeah, I'm here for it all. Kelsey, I know you have questions, you go.

12:56 - Kelsey Aida

Oh my gosh, I came with so many notes. I'm a big nerd. So first of all, I wanted to just introduce people to a quote from your book, the new book. One of the other ones, and it says, choosing love is not what's difficult. What's difficult is getting over our resistance to choosing love, which I just love that because I love helping people work through their resistance because we resist so many things and we perceive them as threats or something could go wrong or what if this or what if that, right? So could you elaborate on or help us to, and probably this segues into the mystic Jesus, how to work through our resistance to choosing love. Because consciously I feel like people are like, I would never resist choosing love. Of course I want love, right?

13:46 - Multiple Speakers

Of course that's what I'm trying to do here. But then when it comes to practice, you're like, it's hard.

13:53 - Marianne Williamson

We all go through situations where it's almost like the wires get crossed in our brain. And we don't in a particular know how to express love and at the deepest level get our needs met. We have been taught a way of looking at the world, which posits that safety lies in protecting ourselves, judging others, attacking others, defending others. And so it's almost like we have a muscle spasm psychologically and emotionally, and we don't know how to let go this knot of anger or this knot of grievances or resentment. And so we keep the world from being able to repair itself, to start over. Because we have an odd idea where safety is versus where danger is. Danger lies in locking ourselves up inside. That's where there's danger. Safety lies in being vulnerable and being open to love. But it doesn't always feel that way at the moment. There's an experience I had many years ago, and I'm having this heated conversation with a boyfriend, and he opens one of my books, and he says, look, right here, you wrote it yourself. Forget the past, let go of the past.

15:15 - Multiple Speakers

What I said in the past doesn't matter.

15:17 - Marianne Williamson

I was just calling for love. And he goes on and on about how love is the answer. And I yell these words, I don't care what Marianne Williamson says. And he and I both burst out laughing. I don't care what my book says. This is not about forgiveness. This is about the fact you said you'd be here at four and at seven and you didn't call. This is so funny because as like Kelsey works with clients and as a teacher, I work with clients.

15:48 - Lynnsey Robinson

I'm a teacher. Marianne Williamson is Marianne Williamson. And so we I think uniquely we all have that one shared experience. I know My husband has thrown some stuff. Well, what do you teach your clients? And I'm like, you better sit down.

16:03 - Multiple Speakers

Stop it. It is hard. It's hard when somebody does it. I don't care what, Mary. This isn't about forgiveness.

16:11 - Lynnsey Robinson

We just both burst out laughing.

16:13 - Marianne Williamson

Oh, that's hilarious. Look, we all have blind spots. And our blind spots are up for everyone right now. We heal spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, the same way you detox your body. Stuff has to come up in order to be released. You know how sometimes in the situations you care about the most, the people you love the most, you find yourself subconsciously exhibiting the worst aspects of yourself. There's a line, it's not from the Course in Miracles, I don't remember who said it, love brings up everything unlike itself. So we're living at a time on the planet where everything that is not what humanity wants to be, is on full display. And it has everybody feeling hopeless and desperate. Not everybody, obviously, but a lot of people feeling like there's almost a sense of inevitable doom at times. But at the same time, there's a feeling of reemergence and rebirth. It's like we're living in two simultaneous realities. One world's falling apart, another world is struggling to be born. And I think we're called on to be death doulas and birth doulas. We're called on to be death doulas to a world that's passing away, but it needs to pass away responsibly, wisely, without harm. And then something else is trying to come forth. And I think that that's what's happening in all our lives. Something new is trying to come forth. And that's really what any deep religious teaching is about. It's about giving birth to to the self within us that we are capable of being, that represents a kind of divine potential within all of us. But birth, spiritual rebirth is like physical birth. It's messy, it can be painful. We're all sort of pregnant with that better version of ourselves, but labor isn't necessarily easy. So I think it's, you know, even like if you look at something like our political situation, some people are very excited and really feeling some new things are going to come forth now that they think are very good. Some people are very desperately unhappy, feeling that something awful is in the air. Listen, we're all human beings, and I think the probability is all of the above, you know.

18:44 - Marianne Williamson

not everybody's going to be happy with. Some things not everybody's going to be sad about. But on a deeper level, humanity is going to be forced to see itself. And that's what's happening now.

18:57 - Kelsey Aida

Yeah, I feel that it's like one day connecting to like the collective grief and sadness and frustration. And another day I'm like, it's the age of Aquarius. It's the dawning. We're moving into a new era for the rest of our lives. For better or worse, right? So it's like a, it's a wild time in history. I feel like only the bravest of souls have come at this time to go through what we are going through. I would love to hear where the mystic Jesus comes into all of this, because obviously Jesus has played an important role in history. He's a main figure in many religions, but what is he to you? And how would you people who are maybe curious to connect with him, but maybe they aren't religious, they're just spiritual. How can maybe you introduce him to them?

19:49 - Marianne Williamson

25:43 - Unidentified Speaker

for human survival. We must evolve.

25:45 - Marianne Williamson

And we were taught as kids that if that doesn't happen, if a species displays behavior that's maladaptive for its survival, one of two things is going to happen. It's either going to evolve in a different way or it goes extinct. It does happen. And I think we're coming out of our magical thinking about this planet, the way we're treating the planet, the way we're treating each other. And then, well, what's the mutation? You know, what's that introduction into the life of the species where some member of the species is demonstrating behavior which represents a better way. And when a critical mass of the species moves in that direction, then the species evolves. Jesus is one. Now, the Course in Miracles does not talk about an exclusive Jesus. This is not the idea that Jesus is the way, and you can't even read any other books. That. This is one name on the door. But whatever the name is on the door, it's leading to a room where we are transformed through the power of love. And the thought system based on love replaces the thought system based on fear. And from that place, we become different people. Our energy is different. Our behavior is different. Our thinking is different. And we turn around literally before it's too late.

27:05 - Kelsey Aida

Do you feel like the illusion of separation is what got us to this point. Because I always think like, okay, if we really came back to our connectedness, if you felt connected to the earth, if you felt connected to other species, if you felt connected to other people, you wouldn't do things that are not in their best interest, because you would take them in as a part of yourself. So do you feel like that's a big part of the problem in addition to the fear? Or would you say that's like a manifestation of fear is just like perceiving everything as separate from It is 100% the problem, the so-called separation.

27:37 - Marianne Williamson

The idea here is that there are two worlds. There's the world that is real with a small R and the world that is real with a big R. So within the realm of the world that is real with a small R, you're over there and I'm over here. You're in your body and I'm in mine. You have separate needs from me, you have a different history, you're a completely different person, Well, obviously you are a different person, but that's the ultimate reality is that which separates us. But then there's another world that the Course in Miracles says is only, it's as though it's beyond a veil. And that other world is real with a capital R. And in that realm, which is beyond that, which is evidenced by the physical senses, there's no place where I stop and you start. The Course in Miracles says, we're like sunbeams thinking we're separate from other sunbeams, when obviously there's no place where one stops and another starts. We are like waves in the ocean thinking we're separate from other waves. But that's such a brilliant metaphor, that wave thing, isn't it? Because think about the psychological difference between being a wave that thinks you're separate from other waves versus being a wave that thinks of yourself as one with the rest of the ocean. So if I'm a wave, right, and I identify with just this one wave. I am surrounded by a huge ocean. How could I not live in constant terror of annihilation? I live in constant fear that another wave is going to overwhelm me. But if I instead identify with the ocean, I'm just part of the ocean, then the ocean moves, I move, I move, the ocean move, I'm completely safe here. And that illusion of separation is everything.

29:27 - Unidentified Speaker

That's why when you look at something like the golden rule, so the golden rule says, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

29:36 - Marianne Williamson

Why is that golden information? It's golden because in fact, what I do to you, I am doing to myself. It doesn't appear that way, but time is a learning device that will force me to realize that what I just did to you, I was doing to myself. You might not hit me back, but some situation is going to come back at me as I gave it to you. It's an inescapable law. It's cause and effect. Cause and effect works on the outer plane and the inner plane. So speaking to what you just said, the idea of the illusion of separation, there is another common Christian term where it's another example of how the mystical interpretation is so different. And that's the line, there is only one begotten son. So many traditional Christians say only one begotten son means Jesus is it, nobody else. From a mystical perspective, there's only one begotten son means there's only one of us here. That if you go deep enough into your mind and deep enough into mine, we have the same common one mind, and that is, among other things, called the Christ. Jesus the Christ means someone who lived on the earth and totally actualized the Christ mind to the point where every thought was purified of anything but love, which is the Christ mind, the love we share. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lindsay, I'll let you ask a question.

31:11 - Multiple Speakers

I didn't take over the conversation. Okay.

31:15 - Lynnsey Robinson

So full disclosure, I am somebody coming into this conversation, who is a little bit hesitant. I'm the people I am one of the people who is like, well, I'm not a Christian. So the traditional Christians that I have known would say you have no business talking about Jesus if you're not a Christian. That's our thing. And so, like, I'm also super intrigued because the way you speak about it, as you said, you're not a Christian and it's not a religion. It's not a religious.

31:43 - Multiple Speakers

Well, it is for some people, of course.

31:46 - Lynnsey Robinson

Well, the book, your book. Yeah. Oh, my book. Your book is, is a, is a spiritual, it's a mystic, it's a, it's a beyond religion. And that's how I would word that. It's like, it's going to that higher plane and seeing the real, real. So I'm very intrigued by this idea, but there's something in my body that's like, you can't talk about, you can't, Jesus doesn't know you. You don't know Jesus. You can't talk to Jesus. So like, talk to us some more about that, because I know there's other people that are listening that are Like, how do I get fully on board with this guy, this person, this idea, this mystic, when we've been taught our whole lives, like, unless you're in the club, you can't. Like, don't even try.

32:26 - Marianne Williamson

Well, first of all, this book isn't trying to get you to do anything.

32:31 - Lynnsey Robinson

Right.

32:31 - Marianne Williamson

That's why I love it. I think the answer to your question is, I'm Jewish, so I don't have that problem.

32:38 - Multiple Speakers

I just wasn't taught anything as a child about Jesus. The only I ever heard my mother say was that she was under the impression that he was polite.

32:47 - Marianne Williamson

Now, where she got this, I have no idea.

32:50 - Lynnsey Robinson

We were simply taught, they read that Bible, honey, and we read another one.

32:55 - Marianne Williamson

And so I wasn't taught anything about these terms, so they weren't loaded for me. So when I came upon these terms, now, when I first saw the Course in Miracles, because I'm Jewish, when I saw the Course and I saw all the Christian language, I did feel like oh, that's for Christian people to read, that's not for me to read. Even though I had studied Christian theology, St. Augustine, St. Thomas of Aquinas, people like that in college, that had been within the academic context of comparative religion. But this was my personal life, so I thought, I went, oh, that's a Christian book. It was nothing negative, it was just that that's not my religion. A year later, You learn very quickly when you pick up the book, it's not a religion, and there's no doctrine here, there's no dogma here, there's spiritual understanding, which I think a lot of people realize now they find in Buddhism, they find in the Kabbalah, they find in 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, they find in many secular, listen, some of the most spiritual material written right now comes from a very secular on a very secular plane. So, people are realizing that now. Once I did realize, oh, this is not asking me to change my religion or anything like that, then you were open to the idea, as my book talks about, which is, I'm sorry, guys, no religion gets to monopolize Jesus. That Jesus has been sort of placed in a musty glass case in a museum somewhere, and he's locked in up on the third floor. Well, a lot of people are like, you know what, I'm going to open that case and look at this for myself. And for those who, and many people I think who are students of The Course in Miracles are traditional Christians. Many are not. The Course in Miracles says its students come from all religions and no religion. But also I think with so many kinds of spiritual books, you read it if and when it's for you. You know, I've known so many people who say, the Course in Miracles was sitting next to my bed for a year before I picked it up. You know, it's like, and also just even as Americans, you know, it's a religiously pluralistic society. We need to get over thinking my politics are right, yours are wrong. My religion is right, yours are wrong. All that kind of stuff, which many of us realize has become almost like a cancer in our society. And that right there goes back to what you were saying, the separation. So I think, you know, there probably are some people even listening to this conversation going, no, no, that's not for me. There might be some people going, hmm, I find that interesting, but aren't going to go so far. You know what I mean? And that's all OK.

35:55 - Lynnsey Robinson

It's there when you need it. I'm not trying to get anybody to do anything.

36:01 - Multiple Speakers

The book exists. You feel call to it in some way, I'm honored and that's beautiful.

36:06 - Marianne Williamson

And if not, it's all good.

36:08 - Multiple Speakers

I'm glad that you said, sorry, it can't be monopolized. That's how I feel about this idea of Jesus is that he's lumped in with this one thing and can't be anything else.

36:20 - Lynnsey Robinson

And God forbid anyone try to have a relationship with it. And I know that's a lot of my stuff and what I've grown up with.

36:29 - Multiple Speakers

No, Oh, it's not just your stuff. You're naming something very real in many cases, like, no, this is the only way to look at it and you shouldn't even talk about it, which as a Jew is kind of funny for me, because, excuse me, he was

36:42 - Marianne Williamson

a Jew. I could say, who are you to talk about it?

36:45 - Multiple Speakers

You know what I mean? Wait a minute, he was a Caucasian from Long Island, okay?

36:49 - Marianne Williamson

No, just kidding. No, I do love that.

36:51 - Lynnsey Robinson

Thank you so much for addressing that, because I've just been sitting here like, I do want to read it. I do, I want to open it. I know there's a lot of magic in here. I'm such a huge fan of Marianne Williamson. The word Jesus has so much attached to it that it really freaks people out.

37:08 - Marianne Williamson

It's so interesting. One of the stories I tell at the beginning of the book is that when I started reading The Course in Miracles, and I was so fascinated by these concepts, because remember, I didn't have to get over anything or relearn

37:22 - Lynnsey Robinson

anything.

37:22 - Marianne Williamson

It was all new to me. I thought, oh God, this is so cool. And then I thought, oh, wow, I bet my Christian friends like talk about this all the time. And then I get, oh, I bet they just haven't talked about it in front of me because they're being polite because I know I'm Jewish. That's so nice of them. So I would go into rooms. Hey, guys, let's talk about the Holy Spirit. And people look at me like, oh, my God, what has happened to you?

37:49 - Multiple Speakers

And people assumed I had become like baptized. Yeah.

37:51 - Marianne Williamson

So I noticed I had some Christian friends who have more to get over, more stuff to work through than I did. Because like I said, they had to unlearn some old descriptions of terms. I didn't, I just was learning some new things that we're having to unlearn. I didn't, in other words, I didn't have ambivalence about these terms. Once I knew my ambivalence had to do with the fact I'm not Christian, you know, so I don't know if I should read, you know. But then once I opened it, and I think that would be your experience Well, oh, it's not that. No one gets to own the breeze.

38:27 - Lynnsey Robinson

No one gets to own the sunlight. Beautiful.

38:31 - Marianne Williamson

No one gets to own forgiveness. And if Jesus is what is claimed, which is an aspect of consciousness that God created within anyone who wishes to reach for him, the idea that any club or institution necessarily has to monitor that relationship becomes questionable for many people. But that's not to say that there's not a lot of sincere, profound, brilliant work that goes on within the Christian religion, because there is, as there is actually within all religions.

39:04 - Kelsey Aida

Yeah, what I've been gathering from the book, well, first of all, I was raised Catholic, so when I did read The Course in Miracles, I was a little bit confused at first because it was either some of the same language. And I was like, wait a minute. But then once I got more into it, I was like, okay, okay, this is making more sense. I like this.

39:26 - Multiple Speakers

It's just like a little bit, felt like a little bit broader, a little bit more zoomed out. And it was like really resonating for me.

39:32 - Kelsey Aida

And in your book, The Mystic Jesus, like the main message that I've been gathering from it is like, I guess the same way people would like call on Jesus to help heal their body, like in the name of Jesus, like, please help me. Like, it's like when your thoughts are so broken, And you recognize, okay, I would like to see this in another way. I'm willing to shift my perception from fear to love, but I can't necessarily do it by myself in this moment. That's when you can call on that Christ consciousness to come in and help align your thoughts with the thoughts of God. And then you feel better.

40:06 - Multiple Speakers

That's your ally with truth, right?

40:08 - Kelsey Aida

I'm always telling people, I'm a self-love coach in a lot of ways for a lot of people. They come to me with all these negative perceptions of themselves and they're hating on themselves and this and that and this. I'm like, you know why this thought feels so bad? It's because you are in complete disagreement with the way that God sees you.

40:28 - Marianne Williamson

That's exactly right.

40:29 - Multiple Speakers

That's why it feels bad. You're literally arguing with the highest version of yourself that is much more true and powerful than you in your small human form.

40:38 - Kelsey Aida

You're not going to win that battle.

40:40 - Marianne Williamson

You're not going to win that battle.

40:42 - Kelsey Aida

You're going to feel bad if you think opposite thoughts of God, right? That's great Course in Miracles teaching right there. You've totally got it, and your clients are blessed to hear you say that.

40:54 - Marianne Williamson

The Course in Miracles, as you well know, says the thinking of God is 180 degrees away from the thinking of the world, and that it's our job and purpose on this earth to learn to think as God does. I think everything you just said is beautiful. Right on. That's it. Thank you. Yeah.

41:13 - Kelsey Aida

And I pulled, I pulled this quote from your book too. The purpose of our lives is to be happy. And the only way we can achieve that is if we learn to think as God thinks, which I loved. I was like, yes.

41:26 - Lynnsey Robinson

So I've been trying to tell people up in here.

41:29 - Unidentified Speaker

Yeah.

41:29 - Marianne Williamson

Yeah. And the fact that you're thinking a thought does not necessarily mean it's true.

41:34 - Lynnsey Robinson

Yeah.

41:34 - Marianne Williamson

And, and I love how the course says, you altar is in your mind. So when you put a relationship, let's say, on the altar, you're saying, I am willing to renounce the lower thought for the higher thought.

41:47 - Multiple Speakers

And on the altar, the transformation occurs.

41:50 - Marianne Williamson

Think what this person, think about, think what you're thinking about this person that God is not thinking, and think what God is thinking that you're not thinking. And that really changes everything, because God's not looking at them and thinking, this narcissistic son of a bitch. Not how God's looking at them. God is looking at them as an innocent child of God, who in that moment did not know how to love you and get their needs met. And this person is not guilty. This person is wounded. And if you are willing to see through your perception to what your heart knows to be true of this person, that awakens them. It saves you from being at the effect of the guilt that you have chosen to identify and make real in your mind. And that is the miracle. And once again, what I love, and I realize in hearing what you just said, you're very well aware of what the principles are. The part of the Course that is so profound that is stated over and over again, that I hope that this book brings into an understanding of Jesus, it's very practical. You know, you can hold on to the grievance and it will feel bad and all kinds of terrible things will come from that because you'll hold on to the thought and it will poison your relationship and it will keep the future from unfolding differently. Or you can have a miracle, you can't have both. And if you are willing to have that miracle and you are willing to experience, not just theologically appreciate, but experience forgiveness, which is, I'm willing to see this person differently, I'm willing to see this differently. Then even if it doesn't happen immediately, it ultimately will dissolve, the grievance will dissolve, and your future can go on without being burdened by that baggage, and it will make all the difference in the world. Because the Course says if you bring into the present all that baggage of resentment and grievance and hurt from the past, then your future is going to be just like it. But God's in that eternal now, that what the Course calls the holy instant. And it's willingness. The Course says your good intentions are not enough, your willingness is everything. And you know we all know it's a process. Sometimes forgiveness is more than just, oh okay, But that process will make all the difference in what kind of life you then have. Yeah.

44:29 - Lynnsey Robinson

One thing Kelsey and I teach a lot is that if you discover a strategy or you adopt a new way of being, it's usually not the good ones aren't a one-time thing. You're going to be practicing it for the rest of your life, but it's one of the best things you can do for yourself is take that moment. And as you be willing to look at it from a different way or put it on the altar or, you know, just change your perspective on it. It's, it's a commitment that keeps giving back to you rather than like a quick fix that, Oh, well, I'm healed now. So it's never going to be hard again.

45:09 - Marianne Williamson

You have to be willing. It's like physical exercise.

45:11 - Unidentified Speaker

Yeah.

45:12 - Lynnsey Robinson

If you do it, it works.

45:14 - Marianne Williamson

So there's internal gravity, just like there's external gravity. So after a certain age, if I'm not working at keeping my muscles up, they're headed down. If I'm not doing accumulated repetitions of that which is anti-gravitational, gravity is pulling it down. But the same with internal gravity of cynicism and doubt and depression and anxiety and fear. If I'm not working my muscles and countering those forces with positivity, love, faith, forgiveness, then I'm pulled down. And also like with physical exercise, if I stop doing it, it'll stop working. Gravity will take over again. Living in the world today, there's so much negativity, there's so much fear, there's so much anger. And if you wake up, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book is if you wake up in the morning, you go directly to social media and email and everything that could just assault you with the fears of the world, then you're just letting the, you know, it's like in Rome and do not conform to the patterns of the world, but renewal of your mind. In the morning your mind is most open to new impressions and you are responsible to yourself what you're going to fill your mind with. But it's like physical exercise, if you keep doing it, it's maintenance, but if you stop you're going to fall back into the old patterns, you're going to fall back into the bad feelings, you know, sick thoughts, Yeah, and you've

46:45 - Kelsey Aida

been teaching this and practicing for so long. I imagine it's easier since you've practiced for a long time, but is it like automatic or do you still have to go like, okay, I'm in fear, ready to see this differently? I want to shift.

46:58 - Multiple Speakers

When was the last time you had to put this into practice?

47:01 - Kelsey Aida

Was it this morning? Was it 10 years ago?

47:04 - Marianne Williamson

Not this morning so much, but I'm sure yesterday. I don't remember exactly, but hey, what I've learned is if I wake up in the morning and do my course in exercise. Today, mine is I Am Spirit. And to people who are not students of the Course, the workbook of the Course is 365 days worth of meditation exercises. The first half of the year is the dismantling of a thought system based on fear. The second is a thought system based on love and constructing that. But you never get to stop. And until you're an enlightened master, and I'm not one, but I believe that it's possible to achieve that. I'm certainly not, but the universe is intentional and the universe is always nudging us. So in my life, like in anybody's life, the lessons are always coming. You think you're so loving? How's that? Try running for president, Marianne. Try running for president. See how loving you're going to stay. Everybody's going to say really horrible things about you all the time and people are going to lie about you and they're going to put it online and they're going to do the most horrible... See how loving you're going to be. See how gracious you're going to be. See how centered you're going to stay. So no matter who we are, the lesson is always there. I learned a long time ago that my life works well when I practice what I preach, but the temptations to not are always there as well.

48:30 - Kelsey Aida

I'm no different than anybody else.

48:32 - Lynnsey Robinson

Yes. Heard it here first, folks. Yeah, seriously. And it's always refreshing. To hear that even the people that you kind of look to for inspiration, they're still human. Yes. I think that's the zeitgeist of this moment.

48:45 - Marianne Williamson

I think there is such a thing as the perfect enlightened master. And I'm not putting that down because I think that that model of teaching is profound. That's not what I am. And I think that's not what a lot of people are, that there's a zeitgeist here about... One of the things I saw and I've had a career over 40 years. An audience doesn't expect you to be perfect, but they have a right to expect that you are trying, and they can tell.

49:16 - Lynnsey Robinson

And I'm sure you find that, Kelsey, in the work you do.

49:20 - Marianne Williamson

People can feel it. People can feel it. And also, I feel in my life as well as in my teaching, you learn as much from your failure from your successes. And sometimes sharing about your failures and how, well, I didn't exactly pull off being kind and serene when I met his ex-girlfriend yesterday, so let me tell you what happened, or whatever. And people laugh and can appreciate it because it's things we all go through. And that I think is the moment we're in. It's not a moment of pretending we're perfect, but it is a moment of making a very sincere effort at getting this stuff right, because our lives do depend on it. Yes.

50:03 - Kelsey Aida

I guess before we head over to the Patreon, because I want to have a few minutes over there, do you have any final takeaway that you want to offer to people's hearts today before we close? Then after that, we'll just let everyone know where they can get the book and how they can connect more with you.

50:24 - Marianne Williamson

Yes, I'd like to weigh in on this political moment. Please. I think it's so important for us as Americans to remember, nobody owes it to you to agree with you. And nobody has a monopoly on truth. And this country belongs to all of us. And it is important to win graciously, and it is important to lose graciously. And I We see an arrogance and an anger and a self-righteousness on both sides of the political aisle among people on the left and people on the right as well. The answer is less left versus right. The answer is an understanding that, as Eisenhower said, the American mind at its best is both liberal and conservative. There are good, high-minded ideas everywhere. Refusing to use this moment as an opportunity to judge and to attack each other is very important. That doesn't mean we don't debate. That doesn't mean we owe anybody, owe it to them to agree with them. Nothing like that. It doesn't mean there's not loyal opposition. Doesn't mean you don't, you know, love says no sometimes. So, you know, love can also say no, but the demonization the casual lying, the attacking, the lack of ethics, the lack of honor, the lack of integrity on both sides is far more dangerous than is any of the policies suggested by either. And so I hope that at this moment we will all pull back from the brink on that level, because that's the deepest level disruption in this country. If we're going to be the United States of America, that doesn't mean we're always going to agree. Of course not. In a free society, you don't have to. But making people wrong for disagreeing with you is eating something, it's eating away at the fabric of our society.

52:34 - Unidentified Speaker

And I think at this moment, that's so important.

52:38 - Marianne Williamson

You don't have to agree with somebody to be able to love them and even like them. And I think the vast majority of Americans are good, decent people who just want the best. And I think sometimes we bump up to each other, against each other, more in terms of the language that we're using than in actual depth of meaning to what we're saying. Because sometimes people seem in such disagreement, and they're so awful to one another, and then if you sit down and talk to each one about what really matters to them. It's the same stuff. We're separated by language.

53:18 - Multiple Speakers

We're separated by ideology. We're separated really by people who are making money off making sure that we stay separated. And I think that stand for love, even with people that we might not like, is so important right now.

53:31 - Marianne Williamson

Martin Luther King said, God didn't say I have to like them, but he did say I have to love them.

53:38 - Kelsey Aida

Which is two very different I try to tell people, well, like, as it comes to self-love, like, you don't have to like everything about yourself in order to wholeheartedly love yourself. Like, there's this thing in the English, there's this thing in the English language of, like, to love someone or something is, like, next-level liking, right? Like, I love pizza. I love this person because I like them so much. But it's like, that's not really it. To love is more to understand, to integrate with, to open with, to bring them closer. Like, it doesn't have to mean you like everything about me. Like, they can be two very distinct things. I'm glad you brought that up.

54:12 - Marianne Williamson

Well, but from the position of, let's say, something like the mystic Jesus, you're loving the Christ within us. You're loving, in Judaism, there's the term the Shekinah. I'm loving an aspect of you with which you may or may not be in conscious contact at this moment. It's like when you have a baby, and sometimes the baby's having a tantrum. You don't love your baby less because you love the baby for who they are, you know? And that's really what holy love is. I love you for who I know you are, even though at this moment I know you cannot find a way to express your love to me. I know you love me. I know I love you. I love the reality of who you are that God created and that cannot be uncreated by your confusion or by mine. And to just take a moment and I know that, to be still and know. And that's also when you even call the name Jesus, when you see Jesus his arms around the other person. You call on him, it's like, I am willing in this moment, the Course in Miracles says, whoever is saner at the time. Lift the veil of illusion that separates us from seeing the love in one another.

55:23 - Lynnsey Robinson

That's the holiness that all of us are looking for.

55:27 - Marianne Williamson

And I think whether it's Jesus or any other portal of deliverance, I think that's, we're all yearning for that right now.

55:36 - Kelsey Aida

I'm hearing the Beatles, love, love, love. That's all I really, literally as you're talking, that's the message we need.

55:44 - Marianne Williamson

All you need is love. All you need is love.

55:48 - Kelsey Aida

Wow. This has been great. Our president, Marianne Williamson.

55:51 - Unidentified Speaker

Yes.

55:51 - Kelsey Aida

I want to ask you if you'll run again, but maybe I'll ask you that on the Patreon. Patreon, Patreon, don't make any sudden moves. Before we head over to the Patreon, if you feel called to the book, it's called The Mystic Jesus, The Mind of Love. Of course, we will link to it in the show notes for you guys. Is there any other way you want people to connect with you to any other books that you feel like are relevant for the time? I know A Politics of Love is a newer one that I want to dive into. I haven't yet, but I have it here. Any other ways people can connect with you?

56:24 - Marianne Williamson

Well, my first book was called A Return to Love. Of course, that's kind of the entrance into it's a reflection on the principles of the Course in Miracles. And all of the things that I'm about are, you can find on my website, Marianne.com. I get on the mailing list, I'll tell you about my various activities, classes, et cetera. And other than that, just thank you. And it was great talking to you guys and thank you for having me.