Artwork for podcast Changing Academic Life
Creating better research cultures together
Episode 4 • 16th October 2024 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 00:53:48

Share Episode

Shownotes

What are the ingredients for creating a supportive, inclusive research culture? Nina Molin Høyland-Kroghsbo from the Department of Plant and Environmental Sciences , Microbial Ecology and Biotechnology at the University of Copenhagen discusses the Research Environment Prize established three years ago by the Danish Young Academy to promote and celebrate good research environments, as experienced by early career researchers in those environments.  

We are joined here by the 2024 prize winners, PhD students Line Maj Sternberg and Nicklas Stott Venzel who nominated their Research Unit in Psychology of Sport, Excellence and Health at the University of Southern Denmark. They share what makes their environment great, and how the group translates their research on what makes a great sports environment into what makes a great research environment. In particular, they talk about encouragement for taking initiative, a focus on long-term development, open communication, psychological safety, promoting mental health, and a sense of belonging, as key factors. Nina also reflects on the common themes that the awarding panel has seen across over a hundred nominations, such as belonging, collaboration, creative practices, and celebrating both successes and failures.

Overview:

00:34 Episode Introduction

03:26 Meet the guests

06:44 The Danish Young Academy and the Research Environment Prize

11:51 Line and Nicklas on applying sports research to academia

18:38 Building trust and open communication

22:34 Support for long term development and wellbeing

25:55 Psychological safety in research

26:55 Creative methods for sensitive topics

29:56 Common themes from nominated research environments

34:47 More examples of good practices

38:41 Having clear values

44:03 Learning from failures, celebrating successes

45:56 Value of good research culture for scientific integrity

49:51 Wrapping up, final thoughts

53:48 End

Related links:

SDU Prize announcement

Prize announcement by the Young Academy on LinkedIn

LinkedIn profiles for Nina and Line



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

:

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

:

So what are the ingredients for creating

a supportive inclusive research culture?

6

:

And what can you do to contribute to that?

7

:

Well, hopefully you'll come away from

this episode with lots of ideas.

8

:

I'm joined here by two PhD students,

Line and Nicklas from Southern university

9

:

Denmark who are going to talk about

their award winning research environment.

10

:

And we're joined by Nina, a member

of the Danish young academy who

11

:

set up the prize three years ago?

12

:

So, let me introduce them all a bit more.

13

:

Nina Molin Høyland-Kroghsbo is

from the department of plant and

14

:

environmental sciences, microbial,

ecology, and biotechnology at

15

:

the University of Copenhagen.

16

:

And she's here with her hat on as a

member of the Danish young academy.

17

:

The Danish young academy set up a

prize three years ago to promote and

18

:

celebrate good research environments as

experienced by early career researchers.

19

:

And so the 2024 winners were

PhD students, Line Maj Sternberg

20

:

and Nicklas Stott Venzel.

21

:

And they nominated their research unit in

psychology of sport, excellence and health

22

:

at the university of Southern Denmark.

23

:

Line and Nicklas share what

makes their environment great.

24

:

And it's interesting how the group

translates their research on what makes

25

:

for a great sport environment into what

makes a great research environment.

26

:

In particular, they talk about

things like the encouragement they

27

:

get for taking initiative, the

focus on long-term development.

28

:

The very open communication

structures that they have in place.

29

:

The psychological safety and being safe

to try things out and make mistakes.

30

:

The support for good mental health and

having a strong sense of belonging.

31

:

Nina also reflects on a lot of the common

themes that they see as the awarding

32

:

panel across over a hundred nominations.

33

:

And she compliments these observations

with things like belonging, again, and

34

:

collaboration, creative practices, and

celebrating both successes and failures.

35

:

We hope this episode will encourage you

to think about how you can recognize

36

:

and celebrate great research cultures.

37

:

And also pick up ideas to

try out for yourselves.

38

:

As Line and Nicklas repeatedly stated: a

good research culture is created together.

39

:

I'm really excited today to have

three people to talk to about award

40

:

winning research culture environments.

41

:

First, do you want to

introduce yourselves?

42

:

Nina.

43

:

Nina: Yeah, so my name is

Nina Molin Høyland-Kroghsbo.

44

:

I'm an associate professor at the

University of Copenhagen, and then I'm

45

:

a member of the Danish Young Academy,

which is an agency under the Royal

46

:

Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters.

47

:

And so we've started this Research

Environment Prize that we are

48

:

going to talk about today.

49

:

Geri: Great.

50

:

And our prize winners, who are

sitting together in a studio.

51

:

Line.

52

:

Line: Yes, um, I'm a PhD student

at the research unit in Psychology

53

:

of Sport, Excellence and Health,

and I have been working on my

54

:

PhD project for about a year now.

55

:

And in my PhD project, I'm looking

into sport environments for

56

:

athletes between 12 to 16 years.

57

:

So we are basically trying to

see some factors in youth sport

58

:

environments for athletes.

59

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

60

:

And just curious, did you do

your previous degrees, in the

61

:

same unit, same university?

62

:

Line: Yeah, I have a bachelor

and a master degree in sports

63

:

science from the same university.

64

:

And then I have been working as a

dual career manager for elite athletes

65

:

for the past six, seven years before

I started my PhD, and as a Sports

66

:

Psychology consultant as well.

67

:

Geri: Right.

68

:

So there was that gap between

doing your initial degree and

69

:

now coming back to do a PhD.

70

:

Line: Yes, exactly.

71

:

So I, I have a small gap there

and then coming back to academia.

72

:

Geri: Yeah.

73

:

Yeah.

74

:

Which means that you come back

with all that experience as well.

75

:

Line: Yeah I would definitely say

that I, I learned some things between

76

:

my master's degree and then coming

back seeing how is it actually

77

:

that our athletes are struggling?

78

:

What is it they they are

meeting in, in their life?

79

:

Geri: Yeah.

80

:

Lovely.

81

:

And Nicklas.

82

:

Nicklas: Yeah, my name is Nicklas

and I'm a PhD student here at the

83

:

University of Southern Denmark.

84

:

I started my PhD project for,

yeah, almost a half a year ago now.

85

:

So I'm pretty new into it.

86

:

Um, my project is about injuries in youth

sports environments, from a more sports

87

:

psychology approach than sports medicine.

88

:

But we're trying to combine the two,

two approaches in, in my project here.

89

:

Geri: So a little bit

interdisciplinary then

90

:

Nicklas: Yeah, exactly.

91

:

Trying to get some inspiration

from both research areas,

92

:

Geri: Yeah.

93

:

And what about you is in relation

to doing your degree, where did

94

:

you do your degree before this?

95

:

Nicklas: Both my master and my bachelor

degree is from here, the same place.

96

:

Um, and then I spent the three and a

half year as, as a teaching assistant

97

:

and a research assistant before I

got the funding for my PhD project.

98

:

So I've been a, a part of the environment

out here for a couple of years by now.

99

:

Geri: So even though you're only

half a year into your PhD, you've got

100

:

a longer experience working there.

101

:

Nicklas: Yeah, exactly.

102

:

And I've been working on other

projects with my supervisor

103

:

and so on for the last year.

104

:

Geri: Oh, that's excellent.

105

:

And Nina, do you want to

just tell us about the prize?

106

:

Nina: Yeah, so, um, The idea

behind the prize originated at a

107

:

retreat where we were discussing

new ways of doing academia.

108

:

So one of our focus areas is to

better the possibilities for the

109

:

next generation of researchers.

110

:

And we were thinking

about the research prizes.

111

:

They often are awarded to PIs,

so heads of big research labs.

112

:

And you never know if it's a At the

expense of the younger researchers

113

:

or how those, uh, groundbreaking

data work sort of came about.

114

:

And sometimes there are some labs

where a lot of people are broken

115

:

and they have to leave academia

because the environment is so tough.

116

:

So if we're not awarding, a group, a PI.

117

:

As head of a group, then how can we

award research in a different way?

118

:

So there was a discussion,

uh, what comes instead.

119

:

So if we remove the PI.

120

:

What's left is the research

environment and more and more also

121

:

with, what Nicholas touched upon

with this interdisciplinary research.

122

:

We need research to be done in teams

where people have different competences.

123

:

And so then we were thinking

about awarding a prize for

124

:

the best research environment.

125

:

Where.

126

:

Younger researchers or, um, early career

researchers can grow and develop and,

127

:

and, foster and work on the best ideas.

128

:

And so we wanted to bring about

a discussion on how to create

129

:

such environments, and, and

create a list of best practices.

130

:

Geri: And you said we

at a research retreat.

131

:

So this is the young, um,

132

:

Nina: Young Academy.

133

:

Yeah.

134

:

Geri: And so how many

of you were part of this

135

:

Nina: So almost all of the

members of the Young Academy

136

:

go to this retreat every year.

137

:

And this is where we have two days

of discussions and communication.

138

:

So we can really go in depth

with some topic of choice.

139

:

And that year it was

research environments.

140

:

And so we have been awarding the

prize for the past three years.

141

:

Geri: Three years.

142

:

Okay, do you remember what the

trigger was for that becoming a topic?

143

:

I mean, it's such an

important topic, isn't it?

144

:

But I'm just curious if there

was a particular trigger.

145

:

Nina: So there's been more and

more focus on the bad research

146

:

environments and stress and burnout.

147

:

And so I think this is a different way

of flipping things on their head and

148

:

looking at the best research environments

and, and put a spotlight on those.

149

:

So, uh, the

150

:

Geri: Yeah.

151

:

We should first of all say

congratulations to Line and

152

:

Nicklas for winning the prize.

153

:

That's really brilliant.

154

:

And what were they asked to do

or what do you ask people to do

155

:

in submitting an application?

156

:

Nina: So the application has to be

filled out by two , younger, early

157

:

career, researchers, so often that

will be a master thesis students,

158

:

PhD students, or, uh, recent

associate, uh, assistant professors.

159

:

So they write the application

together and they write, uh, a small

160

:

paragraph about, their research

group or their research unit.

161

:

It can also be a network of PhD students.

162

:

It can be in different areas of research.

163

:

You don't have a classical research

group with a head of the group and

164

:

members, but it's a collaboration between

sort of a more horizontal network.

165

:

So a description of the

research environment.

166

:

And then a description of why the

environment should be awarded

167

:

the prize with, and we're asking

for specific examples, um, for

168

:

Geri: Overall, how long do

these applications tend to be?

169

:

Nina: So it's a two page application.

170

:

And then we meet, we read

all of the applications and

171

:

we meet and we discuss them.

172

:

So we have people on the panel spanning

all different types of research topics.

173

:

Thank you.

174

:

Geri: hmm.

175

:

Mm hmm.

176

:

So and the panel drawn from the academy

177

:

Nina: Yes.

178

:

Yeah.

179

:

Yeah.

180

:

Geri: And do you have particular

criteria that you're using?

181

:

Nina: So so we were also curious

on how the next generation of

182

:

researchers, what they value.

183

:

Geri: Mm

184

:

Nina: And so we left it a little bit

open, but we said something that people

185

:

could talk about was diversity, inclusion,

onboarding, how people resolve conflicts.

186

:

So those have been some topics

that people could dive into.

187

:

Geri: hmm.

188

:

Mm

189

:

Nina: But it was left open to

come up with answers that we

190

:

could not think of ahead of time.

191

:

So it has been very rewarding to read

all of the different topics that people

192

:

value in their research environments.

193

:

And there are some, some very common

criteria for what people value.

194

:

Geri: Lovely.

195

:

I want to come to that later.

196

:

And, but first I'd love to hear

from Line and Nicklas about, well,

197

:

first of all, what made you think,

yes, we'll nominate our group?

198

:

Line: I think Nicklas and I discussed

what is important in our research group.

199

:

And a lot of our research

is about environment.

200

:

And we see in our group that a lot of

the research that we are doing, some of

201

:

our senior researchers are actually using

the same elements in our research unit.

202

:

So we've, we've, I see it as

a really important research

203

:

environment and a great place to be.

204

:

So when we saw this prize, we were like,

okay, that could be really great to

205

:

kind of award the research environment

that they are creating together with us.

206

:

Geri: Mm,

207

:

Nicklas: Yeah.

208

:

It was also kind of a way to appreciate

the senior researcher in our

209

:

group that you're doing a good job.

210

:

We see it ourselves, but we also see

how we are supporting the job they are

211

:

doing and how we are inviting a new

employees into the environment and so on.

212

:

So we could see that we, or at least

we, we felt that we did something good.

213

:

And we wanted to, yeah, appreciate that.

214

:

Geri: I really like that you both have

said, like, it's not just that the senior

215

:

person has created the environment.

216

:

You've talked about your roles in that

as well, both of you just mentioned

217

:

that, as in it's a co created thing.

218

:

Line: Yes, definitely.

219

:

In our environment, we don't believe that

you can create an environment by yourself.

220

:

It's the individual that's a part

of the whole environment that are

221

:

together and creating whatever

we want in our environment.

222

:

So, so we definitely play a part.

223

:

And then we have some of our research,

uh, senior researchers creating

224

:

like the structure and like trying

to create the culture in, in how

225

:

they want to shape the environment.

226

:

Nicklas: But we definitely have a

role in creating how things are

227

:

done in, in our research unit.

228

:

Geri: yeah.

229

:

You said about the research that you do in

the group is about creating environments.

230

:

So that's within the sport context.

231

:

Can you talk a little bit more

about what it is from that research

232

:

that has been applied back in?

233

:

So I know that in the announcement

from the academy about the award, they

234

:

talked about you walking the talk,

which I thought was really brilliant.

235

:

So I'm just curious to

understand a bit more about.

236

:

What are you learning from sports

environments that's being played

237

:

back into your research environment?

238

:

Nicklas: So some of our research

is focusing on athletic talent

239

:

development environments, and we see

across several successful environments

240

:

that there are some shared features

characterizing these environments.

241

:

And I think that some of these

characteristics can be translated into

242

:

the world of academia, for example,

making room for free initiatives.

243

:

So it's possible for me as a early career

researcher to take initiative into a new

244

:

project that I want to create, and then

I'm supporting for taking that initiative.

245

:

Or, uh, for example, also a coordinated

effort by people in the environment.

246

:

So we don't, at least I have an experience

in the examples where different senior

247

:

researchers are giving me different tasks

that's, you know, um, How do you say that?

248

:

I not the [conflicting].

249

:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

250

:

Geri: Or everyone wanting

you to work 40 hours a week

251

:

Nicklas: Yeah, exactly.

252

:

Geri: So there's

communication to coordinate.

253

:

Nicklas: Yeah, exactly.

254

:

And then I think that one of the

characteristics of these environments

255

:

are also that there is a focus on the

long time long-term development, and the

256

:

mental wellbeing of athletes, and that's.

257

:

Geri: hmm.

258

:

Nicklas: Also a really important focus for

us in the group that we can actually talk

259

:

about when we need help and we can reach

out to other people to get what we need

260

:

or say, I'm, I'm really in a busy period.

261

:

So I had to cancel this meeting

or I need some, some help on this,

262

:

or I can't do this task here.

263

:

Geri: hmm.

264

:

Mm hmm.

265

:

Yeah.

266

:

Nicklas: Both in the, you know, in the

working world, but also in our life on the

267

:

side and our family's life or, yeah, other

activities in our lives that we also have

268

:

time and possibility to prioritize that.

269

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

270

:

So that's valued in the group.

271

:

Line: And I was in addition to

that, we also see in our research

272

:

that strong role models are very

important in our sport environments.

273

:

And I will say that's the same in

our research environment, that we

274

:

have close and strong role models.

275

:

So, we help each other a

lot in the research unit.

276

:

So, the researchers on the next

level, from me, are very approachable.

277

:

I can go to them and see how is

it actually that they are doing.

278

:

Geri: Mm

279

:

Line: At the same time, Nicklas and I as

PhD students are helpers or, our, Master

280

:

students so they can see like what is

kind of the next level, what are the

281

:

people doing if I want to move forward in,

282

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

283

:

Line: kind of world.

284

:

In the academia.

285

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

286

:

So you talked about this as

training upwards and training

287

:

downwards in your application.

288

:

Nicklas: Yeah exactly that's something

we see a lot of in the world of sport.

289

:

Then you train with someone

better than you and then sometimes

290

:

you move a bit down to get some

successful experiences in your sport.

291

:

And yeah, that's, we try to translate

it into the world of academia

292

:

and we can see some similarities

293

:

Geri: yeah, so there's the thing of

you both helping, say, younger people,

294

:

and the reward you get from that.

295

:

And we know helping is good for well

being as well, or just, and also learning

296

:

how to help or how to be a mentor.

297

:

Is that part of it as well?

298

:

Line: Yeah, when, when we help our

master's students or any other students,

299

:

Geri: Mm,

300

:

Line: in our institute, we, we always

have the opportunity to talk with our

301

:

supervisors and then they will help us

saying, okay, if, if you need to be a

302

:

good supervisor or a supervisor, Then

you need to focus on these specific parts.

303

:

So, we have the opportunity to

discuss beforehand, like, what is

304

:

it that we should be aware of in

this situation when we, um, are

305

:

supervisors for master's students.

306

:

And then we always have the

opportunity to have feedback.

307

:

Geri: Lovely.

308

:

Line: So definitely we.

309

:

We go that way.

310

:

Geri: Nice circle.

311

:

What are the practical realities then,

because you've talked a lot about talking,

312

:

you know, you've talked a lot about

the coordination between people you may

313

:

work with so there's no conflict in

what you're being asked to do or you've

314

:

talked about being able to raise issues

when you've got problems or need help.

315

:

And you've also talked about being

able to go back to your supervisor and

316

:

getting support for how you supervise.

317

:

How are the, how did these

interactions practically play out?

318

:

Do you have set meeting

times or open door?

319

:

Like how does that all work?

320

:

Line: We have both.

321

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

322

:

Line: So we have different meetings.

323

:

We have some meetings

with our supervisors.

324

:

We have some meetings

in our research group.

325

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

326

:

Line: And then we also have the

opportunity, we all sit on the

327

:

same kind of floor in one building.

328

:

And if the researchers have time

and then they have an open door.

329

:

And then we always welcome to

come in and I will say most of the

330

:

time, everyone have an open door.

331

:

So, so it's really easy

to get access to the

332

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

333

:

Mm

334

:

Line: colleagues that we have.

335

:

Geri: hmm.

336

:

Nicklas: And yeah, it's easier to go

into an office with an open door than

337

:

it is to write in an email that you

have to formulate in just the right

338

:

way to get some help and that's make

it makes it a bit easier for us.

339

:

Geri: Mm.

340

:

What things have contributed to building

up, I don't know, the trust, and

341

:

knowing one another that you feel

comfortable to go in and ask, or you feel

342

:

comfortable to say, I'm having issues?

343

:

Nicklas: I would say that, uh, I've

experienced so many times that my

344

:

supervisors have asked me, like,

being curious about my life and ask

345

:

me, how are things actually going

for you, not just about your PhD

346

:

project, but also in your everyday life

347

:

and Curious about who I am.

348

:

And that just helps me to trust

them that I can actually be

349

:

honest about how things are going.

350

:

Geri: Yeah.

351

:

And that you can be a whole person,

you know, they're not just interested

352

:

in what you can produce for them for

their CV in a tick box, it sounds like.

353

:

Nicklas: Yeah, I feel like they care for

me as a person, not just as a co worker.

354

:

Geri: Yeah.

355

:

And that's important.

356

:

Line, what about for you, what's

contributed to being able to build up

357

:

that sort of trust and relationship?

358

:

Line: I agree with Nicklas, that

supervisors are definitely coming with

359

:

a mindset saying, How can we help you?

360

:

You're always welcome to come in.

361

:

So they send a directive to me, if you

need any help, please just come in.

362

:

And I will say, just saying these

words, Make me more secure actually

363

:

going in and asking for help.

364

:

And at the same time when we have our

meetings, like the whole research unit

365

:

together, we often divide different

groups so you have the opportunity to

366

:

discuss something in smaller groups before

we take it up in, in plenum together.

367

:

And that could be together with sometimes

like the younger researchers are sitting

368

:

together and discussing it beforehand,

and other times we are with the senior

369

:

researchers, so the whole time we have

this kind of mix, so we get to know each

370

:

other even better, day by day, and at

the same time, I feel like they want

371

:

to have our opinions, they want to hear

what is our view, so I actually feel seen

372

:

and heard in the research units as well.

373

:

Geri: So important that

it, it Sounds wonderful.

374

:

Line: It is.

375

:

Geri: You also talked about the,

the values around long term

376

:

development and wellbeing.

377

:

Can you also say a little bit more

about how they practically play out?

378

:

Nicklas: That's a good question.

379

:

Line: I think if you look into like

this mental health, how to manage

380

:

it, I think we have really free,

what would you say, like frames.

381

:

So we don't need to be at any

specific time in the office.

382

:

They encourage us to come into

the office, so we could share

383

:

knowledge and develop together.

384

:

But if I'm there, Nicklas is

often there earlier than me.

385

:

But I'm coming a bit later,

because I have a daughter.

386

:

So I have the opportunity to, to put her

into, like, uh, uh, child care before.

387

:

Which makes it much more flexible

for me and my private life.

388

:

Geri: Yes.

389

:

Line: Um, and at the same time, we

see like, what is it that people need?

390

:

Do they have any difficulties, then,

as Nicklas explained earlier, we try to

391

:

change our meetings or put them around

it, so, so this other part is, then just

392

:

being a researcher is, is an opportunity.

393

:

Geri: So the fact that you're

allowed to shape your work in a way

394

:

that fits well with your life and

commitments is an important part

395

:

towards supporting your wellbeing.

396

:

Line: Definitely.

397

:

And of course, we also have a

huge amount of workload sometimes.

398

:

But then we sometimes have

meetings saying, OK, what

399

:

do you need to prioritize?

400

:

I think that can sometimes be difficult

when you're new into this research area

401

:

and you want to perform and do a good job.

402

:

Then it's nice to have someone help you

saying, what do you need to prioritize?

403

:

If we're struggling with a lot of

different tasks at the same time

404

:

. Geri: And to have the environment where

you feel free to own up to struggling.

405

:

That's so important.

406

:

Nicklas: Yeah, it sure is and it's

sometimes it's not always us who

407

:

describe how we are struggling with

things, but we also experienced that

408

:

our, uh, senior professors are struggling

with things like theoretical aspects or

409

:

getting some paper published and so on.

410

:

And they share their experiences too.

411

:

So we are not feeling like we

are the only one struggling.

412

:

Geri: They're the perfect ones and you're

aspiring to their role model perfection.

413

:

Nicklas: Exactly.

414

:

We get a real world picture of

how things are going for them.

415

:

Line: I think that we are lucky.

416

:

Often we have just a small

thing as lunch together.

417

:

And there as lunch you

have these informal talks.

418

:

And there you can hear what is it actually

that all supervisors are struggling with.

419

:

along are the other people in

the group in their research?

420

:

So we have this opportunity to

hear and, and feel what is

421

:

the status on the different

422

:

Geri: Mm.

423

:

Yeah.

424

:

So both the formal meetings

and just hanging out at lunch.

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

Nina, I want to come back to you as

I'm conscious that I haven't got

427

:

to you, but I'm just curious to

understand a couple of other things

428

:

from the environment that was awarded.

429

:

And in the award text that you

wrote, you also talked about creative

430

:

methods to discuss sensitive topics

and ensure psychological safety.

431

:

Now, some people may not know

the term psychological safety.

432

:

Do you want to explain

what you've meant by that?

433

:

Nicklas: Yeah, it's, it's

that you're feel safe in the

434

:

environment you're a part of.

435

:

That you you'll safe enough to make

mistakes doing the process you're

436

:

in that you don't have to do it

the correct way every single time.

437

:

And then feel the support both when

you're succeeding with things, but

438

:

also when you're not succeeding.

439

:

So you feel like, yeah, you feel safe

in, in things when you're doing things.

440

:

Geri: And you said also at the beginning,

one of the things that's valued, both

441

:

in high performing sports teams or good

sports environments, as well as your

442

:

research was the encouragement to take

initiative and that freedom to take

443

:

initiative on something that may not work,

is an example, isn't it of having the

444

:

psychological safety just to give it a go

and you're more likely to try things out.

445

:

Nicklas: Yeah, exactly.

446

:

And, we are encouraged to

take the initiative.

447

:

So when we do, it's really

appreciated by our colleagues.

448

:

Geri: But what, what did you

mean by creative methods then

449

:

to discuss sensitive topics?

450

:

Because you have just talked about

like people explicitly saying how

451

:

are you going and being genuinely

interested and you have talked about

452

:

feeling free to bring up issues.

453

:

And I'm just curious about what might

be some other creative methods that

454

:

you've experimented with in the group,

455

:

Nicklas: So one of the best examples

I can probably come up with is once

456

:

I met one of our longer meetings,

we did Sarah and the Monopole.

457

:

It's a famous Danish radio program

where people can send in dilemmas

458

:

they're working with, and we tried to

translate it into the world of academia.

459

:

So, so everybody in the unit could

send in a dilemma, a theoretical

460

:

one, a methodological one, a

personal life dilemma if they had

461

:

something, and then everybody in the

unit had to discuss this dilemma.

462

:

So, it was written anonymously.

463

:

So we didn't know who wrote it, but

we then talked about the theoretical

464

:

question of how do we understand the

environment, for example, and that

465

:

created a room where we could

show our vulnerability and

466

:

that we don't know everything.

467

:

And so it's the same case

for our senior professors.

468

:

So, yeah, it created a good meeting

where we could actually talk

469

:

about what what are hard in our

everyday life as a researcher.

470

:

Geri: Nice.

471

:

That's interesting.

472

:

Anything else to add there, Line?

473

:

Line: I think Niklas mentions

a really good practice example.

474

:

So yeah, we sometimes have different

takes on how to discuss dilemmas and

475

:

how to be together and stuff like that.

476

:

But, but I think that's,

that's A good example.

477

:

Geri: Yeah, and it's also a nice

example of the way that everyone,

478

:

you know, the structure of that

is based on an assumption that

479

:

everyone's got a contribution

they can make to discussing it.

480

:

And that valuing of what you all do

together to create that environment.

481

:

Line: And I guess it's also shows

that everyone do have struggling and

482

:

do have something that is difficult.

483

:

So creating this session, we saw that

despite the level that you have, everyone

484

:

is struggling and that's like being

transparent and being a bit vulnerable

485

:

to each other in the research group.

486

:

Geri: And, it sounds like

very solution focused as well.

487

:

It's not just the wallow

pit of we're all struggling.

488

:

Woe is us.

489

:

But what can we learn?

490

:

What can we do?

491

:

Nicklas: Yeah, it's not like we didn't

find an answer for every question

492

:

at all, every dilemma we brought up.

493

:

But just the fact that people are

discussing it are sometimes helping you a

494

:

bit closer towards the real answer if you

can actually find it in this situation.

495

:

Geri: Indeed.

496

:

So Nina, what an amazing

research environment.

497

:

Nina: Yeah, we were very excited

when we went through all the

498

:

applications, but particularly

this one from Line and Nicklas.

499

:

Yeah.

500

:

Geri: Yeah.

501

:

You, you said before that, in doing

this over three years and seeing all

502

:

the different applications, how many

applications might you get in each year?

503

:

Nina: So it varies a little bit, but

we've had altogether over a hundred

504

:

applications from very different research

environments from all across the country.

505

:

Geri: And so what are some of the

patterns that you're seeing around

506

:

what makes a good research environment?

507

:

And the fact that there are a hundred

groups who feel like they've got

508

:

something to celebrate or to write

up about is encouraging that, that

509

:

there are good environments out there.

510

:

So yeah, what are some of the patterns?

511

:

Nina: The most common thing is that

people describe that they have a sense of

512

:

belonging to their research environment.

513

:

That's the most important factor.

514

:

But then exactly how to create

a research environment where

515

:

people get the sense of belonging.

516

:

That's where we really appreciate when

people come up with these examples of

517

:

what the environment does for them.

518

:

To create that sense.

519

:

So that includes having a common purpose

within the group or a common identity, a

520

:

defined mission that people can jump onto.

521

:

And also, ways of promoting diversity

and ensuring that people can be their

522

:

true selves, that they feel comfortable

as the person they are, uh, when they

523

:

are in the group, it's having a

shared set of values that people can

524

:

agree to having clear expectations.

525

:

So people know what, uh, what is expected.

526

:

And that they can feel a sense

of accomplishment when they

527

:

are meeting those expectations.

528

:

It's supporting collaborations, uh, with

both within the group, but with other

529

:

researchers from different countries.

530

:

Uh, setting up new collaborations

and supporting that these next

531

:

generation of scientists, of

researchers can explore that.

532

:

It's having a way to foster

and value creativity.

533

:

uh, setting up structures where

people have time to explore creative

534

:

ideas and discussing new ideas in an

environment where they're not afraid

535

:

to express those ideas and they can

get constructive feedback both from

536

:

peers, but also from the top and

bottom and from visiting scholars.

537

:

As Line and Nicklas also said

that it builds on initiatives

538

:

from the top and from the bottom.

539

:

So everybody contributes, it contributes

in their own way to this environment.

540

:

Also having some structure,

so having regular meetings for

541

:

discussing both research, but also

mentoring aspects and career advice.

542

:

So one example is that some groups

have alumni days where they invite

543

:

past members, uh, back and, uh, they

sometimes help the next generation

544

:

of researchers into their next job

opportunities or into new networks.

545

:

Uh, and it's having social

activities and rituals, uh,

546

:

rituals for graduation parties.

547

:

It can be writing Christmas cards, to

past members or something like that.

548

:

But then also.

549

:

One of the most common things that

people mention is to celebrate both

550

:

the successes, but also addressing

failures and viewing failures as an

551

:

opportunity to learn and to grow.

552

:

Geri: Mm,

553

:

Nina: And some research groups even

celebrate advancements in their fields,

554

:

uh, as a positive twist on this often

very competitive environment that if

555

:

you acknowledge and celebrate when

there's a major advancement in the

556

:

field, that's a very positive thing.

557

:

Um, which just creates the sense of, uh,

curiosity and you want to understand

558

:

things no matter if that result is

from your group or from somebody else.

559

:

And you're just excited

about the new discoveries.

560

:

Geri: So much there.

561

:

I love some of the specific

examples as well that you gave.

562

:

I'm curious if you have any other

examples that stand out for you.

563

:

Of any of those aspects, you've

talked about alumni days and

564

:

celebrating rituals, things like that.

565

:

So yeah.

566

:

Any other examples?

567

:

Nina: So some groups have a

structured time of creativity where

568

:

they block it out in their calendar

and then that's what they focus on.

569

:

And then for this period of time,

they're not working on taking

570

:

off stuff from that to do list.

571

:

That's time to walk out in nature

and discuss and explore and people

572

:

sometimes assign time for exploring

new ways of communicating their

573

:

research in different creative ways.

574

:

And then going for outreach events,

not as one person, but as a couple

575

:

of people from the same group.

576

:

So they can support each other in

communicating what they have discovered.

577

:

And then there's a quote that

I really liked from a past

578

:

research environment nomination.

579

:

It has to do with being welcomed

as a person where you feel

580

:

safe and taken seriously.

581

:

So what they wrote is that you

can get thrown into the deep

582

:

water, but always with a colleague

with a life jacket inside.

583

:

So that's when you grow as a researcher.

584

:

I just love that picture.

585

:

And I think that's also the same

kind of feeling came across in what

586

:

Line and Nicklas wrote in their

nomination, but in different words,

587

:

but this sense where you, you just

feel safe to say whatever comes to mind.

588

:

You, it might be the next big

discovery of next big research idea.

589

:

And so we need to, uh, develop those

skills and make sure that it's in place

590

:

because we have so many major challenges

and just even asking the right questions

591

:

and coming up with solutions, people

need to come forward with that best ideas.

592

:

Geri: Yeah.

593

:

And, we talked at different points about

the interdisciplinarity and the increasing

594

:

importance of that for solving some of

the really hard challenges we have now,

595

:

we've always had, but recognizing that

we need these different perspectives.

596

:

And What I hear across both Line and

Nicklas's specific experiences and what

597

:

you've reported on from across them is

598

:

the value of, you know, you talked

about belonging and Line or Nicklas,

599

:

I can't remember which one of you

talked about being seen and heard.

600

:

And, and also being seen and heard as

whole people, like belonging isn't just

601

:

that you wear the t shirt with the name

of the lab on it, it is that really human

602

:

level sense of belonging and being able to

show up and be real, like, make mistakes.

603

:

And what I also heard was creating

the spaces for the conversations and

604

:

the ideas to incubate and grow and

to be shared and enhanced as well.

605

:

And whether that's being able to

try out new initiatives or solving

606

:

dilemmas together or going off.

607

:

I like the idea of the going off

on the walks where you're just,

608

:

you're exploring ideas together to

create that space for creativity.

609

:

Cause I don't know, it feels like

academia can get so focused on the stress

610

:

and the pressures and the competition

and pushing it the next paper that we

611

:

actually don't create space to think.

612

:

Nina: We need more time for deep thinking.

613

:

Geri: And that we don't do that alone.

614

:

Yes.

615

:

I mean, obviously we think, but

we do our best thinking with one

616

:

another and bringing together

all the different contributions.

617

:

And so it sounds like what's creating

these good environments are the

618

:

more subtle, nuanced aspects of how

to do that, creating those spaces.

619

:

And the trusted relationships

in which to have those

620

:

exploratory, open conversations.

621

:

Nina: Yeah, definitely.

622

:

So that's a part of having a clear

set of values in the research

623

:

environment where, where it's, those

things are valued high enough to

624

:

take actual space in the calendars.

625

:

Geri: Yes.

626

:

So talking about values, and Line

and Nicklas may want to come in with

627

:

what they think the particular values

are of their group, although they did

628

:

talk about that a little bit, but are

there any specific values that you

629

:

saw reflected across the nominations?

630

:

Nina: So Thats ways of ensuring that

people can share their ideas and

631

:

get feedback both from our senior

researchers, but also learning

632

:

from everybody in the environment.

633

:

There might be a visiting person coming

from a different university and then

634

:

making sure that, that visiting, uh,

might be a famous professor, that they

635

:

get time to both discuss with the heads

of the research groups, but equally

636

:

important to schedule one on one meetings

with the more junior researchers so

637

:

that they have some time to bounce

their ideas off this person who might

638

:

have some, some great ideas for, uh,

questions regarding the research.

639

:

Geri: Yeah.

640

:

So a value that everyone's voice matters

or everyone has a contribution to make.

641

:

Yeah.

642

:

Nina: And then, then maybe it's an

idea that, that won't win the next

643

:

Nobel prize, but the idea might mature

by bouncing off different people with

644

:

different ideas and perspectives, and

then maybe it will take a different shape

645

:

or form, and then maybe then it will

become something, uh, very interesting.

646

:

Geri: Yeah.

647

:

Line and Nicklas, do you have anything

to add there around what you think

648

:

about the really core values that

matter in a good research environment?

649

:

Nicklas: And I think in line with what

Nina told about, talked about, the

650

:

knowledge sharing both within the research

unit, but also inviting people in from

651

:

other research units to, to, share

their research projects so you can get

652

:

some inspiration into your own process.

653

:

That's something we also appreciate

in our unit and we invite other

654

:

people in to give, uh, talks about

how they do things in their, at

655

:

their university, for example.

656

:

Geri: That also sounds like a very

practical illustration of the celebrating

657

:

the successes of the field and

celebrating people in the field as well.

658

:

And I'm sure people coming in would

experience that in the group, that

659

:

they're not there to have their

brains picked and ideas stolen,

660

:

but celebrating collectively.

661

:

Nina: And that's also important for

people to build their research networks.

662

:

So maybe people would, uh, want to pursue

a postdoc abroad or something like that.

663

:

And then they have already met one

person in a different lab and it

664

:

makes taking the contact to that

person afterwards so much more easy.

665

:

You know, the person you met them.

666

:

So it's a, it's a good way of

helping people to develop their

667

:

international network as well.

668

:

Geri: And again, another very

specific example of the long term

669

:

development that was in your award

proposal or nomination for your group.

670

:

But Line and Nicklas, do you

have any particular rituals?

671

:

You know, so Nina talked about rituals.

672

:

And the importance of rituals.

673

:

Nicklas: I'm not sure it's a

ritual, but, uh, I talked with

674

:

a PhD student who sometimes is

connected to our research unit.

675

:

So she's been a part of our, some

of our monthly research unit.

676

:

And she told me that what she really

appreciated about our unit is that

677

:

we always spend the first half an

hour of first hour of a research

678

:

unit for everybody to check in.

679

:

To the meeting to, to just give a quick

status on how are things going for them?

680

:

What are they working on?

681

:

Do they have some big project coming

up or do they need help with something?

682

:

And that opened my eyes for that being

a, a really helpful, activity to do,

683

:

to just get some knowledge about what I,

all of my colleagues doing at the moment.

684

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

685

:

Yeah.

686

:

Line: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say

it's a ritual, but we also have

687

:

these different kind of meetings.

688

:

So once a month we have like a, a nerd

meeting, we call it, where we go together

689

:

in a group of the researchers focusing

on the same area and then trying to go

690

:

into the new research or going into the

process where we are right at the moment

691

:

to see how can we improve this part.

692

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

693

:

Line: So it's also a way to get a bit

more specific on the research with

694

:

the people from the group that are

interested in the same area as you.

695

:

Geri: Yeah.

696

:

Nice.

697

:

So like the, it sounds like very

deliberate thought to structuring

698

:

different types of meetings for

different purposes and different

699

:

rhythms as well to those meetings.

700

:

Nina, what, what are you doing differently

having had the privilege of, as well as

701

:

the work, I acknowledge that running these

award schemes as part of the academy is

702

:

probably a lot of additional work for you.

703

:

And what have you learned for yourself?

704

:

What are you doing differently

from what you've read?

705

:

Nina: So one of the very easy things from

our list of things to implement is, uh, to

706

:

discuss about, uh, successes and failures.

707

:

So I have that on a slide for our

weekly group meetings, uh, in my research

708

:

group, we discuss successes and failures.

709

:

And then just, uh, just this

week, I, I, I had to announce that

710

:

well, there was a grant that we

didn't get which I applied for.

711

:

And of course, that's, uh, it would

have been nice to get that grant, but,

712

:

then we discussed that, uh, this this

doesn't happen always, right, and we

713

:

just, uh, need to try for the next one.

714

:

And then the students who, uh, just

joined the group where they, they ran

715

:

an experiment once and it worked in the

first shot, but then when they tried to

716

:

repeat it, then, uh, none of the bacteria

were growing on the plate as expected.

717

:

So they all died.

718

:

And so in the light of me not getting

this research grant, then maybe a plate

719

:

of no bacterial colonies is not too bad.

720

:

It is repeated next week and

then hopefully they will grow.

721

:

Uh, so we had a discussion on this, uh,

yesterday that it's nice to readdress

722

:

these things, uh, that the new people

in my group appreciated, uh, because

723

:

they can look around and see, Even

though you have a protocol and maybe

724

:

I'm doing air quotes, it should work.

725

:

It will never always work there.

726

:

You'd have to optimize and try again.

727

:

There's sometimes, for whatever reason,

the experiment fails and you have

728

:

to go back and try again and again.

729

:

And, If you only look at the stuff that

works and that gets granted or published,

730

:

then it's so easy to feel like you're

the only person where nothing works.

731

:

So I think this is one thing

that was easy to implement.

732

:

Yeah, for sure.

733

:

Geri: I'm just trying to think of people

who may be sceptical and, you know,

734

:

if I play devil's advocate or try to

imagine a critique, I could imagine

735

:

someone saying, well, it's all very good

having these nice research environments

736

:

and it's okay to fail and you know,

someone caring about your life outside

737

:

work, but we're here to do research.

738

:

So what does this mean for the science?

739

:

How would you respond to that?

740

:

What's the relationship between

good environments and good work?

741

:

Nina: Yeah, so that's a question we

get sometimes and how do we ensure

742

:

that then there's time to do a really

excellent research as well, if you

743

:

take time away for these other things.

744

:

But so then there's, the past few

years, there's been a crisis in

745

:

replication of some data and some

papers get withdrawn due to fraud.

746

:

And, sometimes You could imagine

that some of these fraudulent

747

:

data were generated because

people were afraid to come forward

748

:

and say it simply doesn't work.

749

:

Um, so if you create the space to

talk about stuff that's not working,

750

:

then the incentive to, to come up with

fraudulent data, Is reduced greatly.

751

:

And I think so it's worth.

752

:

This is another way where it's worth to

promoting a good research environment

753

:

because then it might reduce the risk

of having some of this horrible data

754

:

being published, which might actually

harm people, but definitely it will

755

:

harm the research field in general.

756

:

And then one of the runner ups for

the research environment this year,

757

:

they highlighted that they actually

are publishing negative data.

758

:

So that's a new thing where some

journals will accept research where

759

:

they have a clear question and a

hypothesis and then it comes out

760

:

that this was just not how it worked.

761

:

But, uh, it's still possible to publish.

762

:

And it's good for the research field

because then people don't have to

763

:

spend time trying with the same idea.

764

:

And also it, it, it builds people's CV.

765

:

Then they have papers with

negative data is also data.

766

:

And also it would do that reduces the

risk that some people would create

767

:

fraudulent data and publish that.

768

:

So I think there are more tangible

potential outcomes, to highlight or to

769

:

increase the quality of research at least

sort of, uh, so potentially long term.

770

:

Geri: yeah, because that's where the

learning happens and to do better work.

771

:

Anything to add?

772

:

Line: I was just considering if we

want people to do great research

773

:

and do a really good job, we also

know that people perform best if

774

:

they are mentally healthy and in an

environment where they feel safe.

775

:

So if you want the best research

and if you want someone to develop

776

:

the best, we also need to create the

environment that helps them do that.

777

:

It's not a, an individual

who perform, uh, alone.

778

:

Maybe they can perform despite

the environment, but not

779

:

because of the environment.

780

:

So we need to create environments

where we perform together

781

:

because of the environment.

782

:

Geri: That's lovely.

783

:

Line: my thought.

784

:

Nina: And so where people don't burn

out because we spend up these resources

785

:

training people and they acquire all

these skills and knowledge and if

786

:

people burn out and then they can of

course carry on some of the skills.

787

:

But if people burn out to the degree

that they are not continuing to use

788

:

those skills in whatever capacity,

then that's such a waste of, uh,

789

:

human, resources and people's time.

790

:

And, um, so that's, that's

791

:

Geri: And the loss of the contribution

they could have made . Yeah.

792

:

We should look at wrapping up.

793

:

Are there any final thoughts each of

you would like to make around great

794

:

research environments or what you'd

hope people might take away or do

795

:

as a result of this conversation.

796

:

Nina: I hope that people listening in can

continue the conversation and maybe come

797

:

up with some ideas of how they might,

uh, work on improving their research

798

:

environment or whatever environment.

799

:

I think all these points we

discussed can be transferred

800

:

to many different environments.

801

:

Geri: Yes.

802

:

Oh, one question I have, Nina, I

don't know whether you can answer.

803

:

You said you got these

hundred applications from

804

:

all sorts of different areas.

805

:

Do you see any disciplinary

related patterns at all?

806

:

Nina: I see that people, uh, with major

grants, centers of excellence, they

807

:

have more financial resources to create

a bit of framework for initiatives and

808

:

they would maybe have funding for going

on retreats, something like that, whereas

809

:

smaller research groups or people in

the humanities often don't have the

810

:

resources for those kinds of activities.

811

:

So we are very much taking that

into account when we are looking

812

:

at the applications, that there

are some disciplinary differences.

813

:

In the foundation for

building research environments.

814

:

Geri: Really good points.

815

:

And Line and Nicklas, any final

thoughts from you, each of you?

816

:

Line: I agree with what Nina said.

817

:

I think that people listening might

hope to take into account that everyone

818

:

play a role in the environment.

819

:

So how can we give everyone a voice

and, and hear what the different

820

:

people need, despite different levels.

821

:

Geri: And what you've said is what

they need and what they can contribute.

822

:

Like that two way.

823

:

Yeah.

824

:

Nicklas: Yeah.

825

:

And then I think maybe the examples

we have listened up here is not

826

:

a hundred percent transferable

into their environment, but maybe

827

:

they can try to translate it into

something applicable to their context.

828

:

Geri: Great.

829

:

So thank you very much, Nina, Line and

Nicklas for your time today and we

830

:

celebrate with you your award for your

excellent research environment and for

831

:

all the efforts that people everywhere

are taking to be part of the change about

832

:

doing academia differently, because

you said at the very beginning, Nina,

833

:

about one of your most important.

834

:

Motivations in setting up this prize was

about needing new ways of doing academia.

835

:

We can work on that together as well.

836

:

And thank you for your

contributions towards that.

837

:

Nina: Thank you.

838

:

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

839

:

links for this podcast on www.

840

:

changingacademiclife.

841

:

com.

842

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

843

:

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

844

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

845

:

we can do academia differently.

846

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

847

:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

848

:

podcast with your colleagues.

849

:

Together, we can make change happen.

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube