How We Hatched: Will Wilson, Co-Founder of Antithesis

Dive into the entrepreneurial journey of Will Wilson, Co-Founder of Antithesis, in this episode of "How We Hatched."

Host, Tim Winkler, interviews Will about:

• HIs journey into technology, including his inspiration to start his own company and the mentor who inspired him to take the leap.
• His career path to becoming the founder of Antithesis, including his time spent at Apple and Google.
• The problems Antithesis is solving and the impact they’re making in the tech industry.
• The decision to operate Antithesis in stealth mode for 5 years and the team’s experience transitioning out of stealth mode.
• The advantages and disadvantages of staying in stealth mode, including access to investors and capital without public exposure.

About Will Wilson: Will Wilson is a former mathematician who switched to software because it seemed easier. He built distributed databases at FoundationDB, Apple, and Google. Along the way, he realized that computers are actually the enemy, and founded Antithesis to put them in their place.

Check out Antithesis: https://antithesis.com/

Sign-Up for the Weekly hatchpad Newsletter: https://www.myhatchpad.com/newsletter/

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the

creator of hatchpad, and I'm

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your other host, Mike Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Let's jump in.

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So Will, thank you for joining

us on The Pair Program.

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Thanks so much for having me, man.

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Yeah, I appreciate you joining us.

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Uh, this is a, another bonus episode of a.

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Of a mini series that

we call how we hatched.

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Um, you know, today we've got Will

Wilson spending some time with us.

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Will is the.

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CEO and one of the co founders

behind Antithesis, uh, a startup

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that is revolutionizing software

testing and system reliability.

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Uh, Will is also a father of,

uh, four kids with a fifth on the

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way within just a few weeks of,

uh, of, uh, us recording today.

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So I am very excited to lean into

some of those questions on, on how

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you juggle the chaos of production.

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Of building a startup

and raising a family.

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Uh, I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs

out there could take some notes.

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So again, excited to have you

with us today and, and, uh, thanks

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for joining us on the pod and.

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Let's, um, let's jump in.

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So I always like to start, you know,

these, these episodes off with a

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pretty thought provoking question,

which, uh, would be what did Will

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Wilson have for breakfast this morning?

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Will Wilson: So I actually generally

don't eat breakfast and then, and

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then I eat lunch really early and

everybody here makes fun of me for

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that, you know, sometimes at like

10, 15 AM or 10 30 AM, somebody will

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come ask me like, Hey, isn't it a

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So today was no exception.

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I did, I did not eat breakfast

and then I ate lunch at 11 20 a.

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m.

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Oh, nice.

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Is a perfectly reasonable time.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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You always find folks that are either

like super gung ho breakfast, like, what

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do you mean you don't eat breakfast?

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And then the folks are like,

yeah, I don't eat breakfast.

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And it's just like,

yeah, it is what it is.

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Um, cool.

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Well, um, uh, let's, let's kind of set

the stage for, for our guests here on.

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You know, what we're really going

to, to be dissecting on this episode.

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So Antithesis is a startup that operated

in stealth mode for about five years.

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Um, I'll repeat that for our

listeners, five years in stealth.

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Uh, prior to kind of making the

public, uh, the company known publicly.

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Uh, and this is a topic that

we get a lot of interest from

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our community specifically.

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Uh, so we will be chatting quite

a bit on that self mode journey.

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In addition to, you know, obviously

learning a bit more about the problems

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that you're solving at Antithesis.

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But I did want to mention that early on

for our listeners that are tuning in.

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Um, so on these episodes, you know,

I do like to kind of turn back the

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clock a little bit and initially

just kind of hear a little bit about

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you will, and your journey down that

path into technology, you know, when.

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When was it that you kind of realized

that you had a passion for, for tech?

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Will Wilson: Sure.

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So I, like I screwed around with

computers a lot when I was a kid.

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Um, in high school, I installed

Linux on a laptop and I'm so old

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that this was back in the days where

doing that was very, very hard.

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And I, you know, I actually

learned quite a lot about computers

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just from that experience alone.

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Then when I got to college, I

basically didn't do anything

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related to tech or computers at all.

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I studied pure math and it's, it's,

this is actually kind of funny

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and a little embarrassing maybe.

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Um, so I was in school in like the

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having this thought that was like,

Hey, this tech stuff seems pretty cool.

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Too bad.

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I'm too late, you know, too, too, too bad.

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Like all the interesting companies

have already been started.

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And you know, like, you know, there's

already Google, there's already Facebook.

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What else is there to do?

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Like, like that's so over, you know, I'm

just going to have to find something else.

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So I didn't really do anything

with computer science or

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tech at all in college.

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And then I graduated and I worked in like.

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Like science, like biology, medical

research, um, did a bunch of different

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things and like had this like very

jarring experience where I realized

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one day that my ability to write like

a really low quality Python script,

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you know, in 45 minutes that would like

automate, you know, some entire large

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task I had to do, or one of my lab

mates had to do was like by far the most

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valuable quality I brought to that job.

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And I was like, huh, like maybe.

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Maybe this computer science thing

has something to it after all.

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And then, you know, I also got very

interested in databases because I saw this

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database query, which took like days and

days to run and, you know, made a small

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tweak to it and it, you know, finished in

five minutes and I was like, that's weird.

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Like how, how did that happen?

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Right.

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Like, and so, you know, I had these,

I had these thoughts that maybe there

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was something cool there after all.

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And then I.

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You know, basically my first kid was

born and I wanted to find a career

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that had better hours and better

pay than than what I was doing.

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And I was on paternity leave.

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And so I just started studying data

structures, algorithms, all that stuff,

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um, using like online classes and so on.

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And.

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You know, found it very intellectually

engaging and very satisfying.

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And I was like, wait a minute, like

this is, this is totally unfair.

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You mean there was this job out

there all along, which is like

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interesting and pays you well, like,

and is like full of nice people and

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like very low barriers to entry.

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And like, you mean I could have

been doing this the whole time.

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Right.

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And then I, I sort of did a career switch

into tech, uh, in my, in my mid to late

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twenties and been here ever since, you

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Tim Winkler: That's so fascinating

when you look back and perspective

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of, you know, all the good big tech

companies have already been built,

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you know, what's left to be built.

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And then, you know, you

fast forward to today.

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It's like AI is just eating the

world, but, but it's so true.

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I think, uh, I think we were

kind of, we're kind of in a

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similar, um, uh, similar age.

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So I can.

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Remember back to those early days

when, when Facebook was, was the thing.

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Um, now, you know, looking at your,

your kind of profile on LinkedIn, just

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kind of studying a little bit about your

journey, um, you know, this computational

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biodynamics, um, company jumps out to me

because it looks like early on you were.

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Kind of drawn into the world of, you

know, serving as an entrepreneur, um,

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expand a little bit into, you know, how

that kind of opportunity was, was formed.

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And, uh, you know, what, what

drove you down that path of wanting

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to do something on your own?

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Will Wilson: Yeah, no.

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So, so that was a very right.

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That was a very, very early job of mine.

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Basically, um, I worked when I was in

high school as an intern at a hospital.

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And, um, became close to one

of the doctors who worked there

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and he had this very good idea.

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It's still a very good idea for a startup.

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Um, and basically I did a gap year

between high school and college

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and, and worked with him on that.

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And then also, um, worked on it

on and off throughout college and

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then for a little while afterwards.

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And, you know, it was very

cool to see that you can just

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like take an idea and start it.

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Start trying to do it.

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Right.

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And that was like a little bit of

a revelation to me at the time.

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And it was like, definitely

a very valuable thing I

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got out of that experience.

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Like the other valuable thing I got out

of that experience was like a little

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bit of an indication of what not to do.

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Like the problem that we had at

that company, I would say the

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fundamental problem and the reason

that it wasn't ultimately successful

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was that, you know, it had a large

number of quote unquote co founders.

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All of whom were working full time as

surgeons or doctors or scientists, you

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know, or professors, you know, and,

and we're mostly dedicated to that.

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And we're kind of like doing

this nights and weekends.

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And it's just very hard to

make anything big and real.

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If at least one person isn't making

it, they're like full time occupation,

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Tim Winkler: right?

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Will Wilson: You know,

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Tim Winkler: just trying to juggle

a couple of things while building.

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Yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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So that was a gap year through

high school, after high

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school and between college.

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And then, you know, we can kind of do a

quick sprint through, um, call it like

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a two minute drill on your journey,

uh, up to starting the Antithesis.

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And I'll have some, some questions digging

into a few of those key roles, but give

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me the quick kind of like two minutes

on, you know, where you bounced around

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to, because I think it's important to

build some context on, you know, startups

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and then some thing companies and, and

then leading into this current role.

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Will Wilson: Yeah, yeah.

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So it was, it was after, after a

computational biodynamics, after

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a couple of other sort of more

science y roles that I got into tech.

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And the first like really real tech job I

landed was at Foundation Deep, which was,

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you know, hugely influential on me and

on my career trajectory ever since then.

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I mean, not least because like half

the people who work at this company

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now are people who I met there.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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My, my co founder, Dave Sherer.

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Was, uh, my boss at foundation DB.

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Um, our COO, Nick Levetsoe

was the COO at foundation DB.

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Um, you know, our director of

operations, our director of

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engineering, like all worked there.

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Um, so it's, that's actually really cool.

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You know, that, that I've worked

with all these people for such a long

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time and that we all know each other

and trust each other a great deal.

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But basically, you know, I got to

foundation DB and I saw they're a

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different, beautiful and awesome

side of, of programming, right?

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Like, you know, I'd gotten really into

the theoretical aspect and the, you know,

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algorithmic complexity and data structures

and like, you know, sort of pure CS,

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cause I was coming from a math background

and at foundation DB, like there was

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a lot of the other extreme, right?

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There was a lot of like really

hardcore, low level systems,

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programmers, You know, we were

writing a distributed database, right?

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Like people who like lived and breathed,

you know, system calls and, you

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know, how to communicate with an SSD

in the most efficient possible way.

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And like, you know, stuff, stuff

that earlier on I would have like

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sneered at, but like, you know,

jokes on me because like, this is

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actually like just as beautiful and

worthwhile and like an intricate

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and difficult and like, and cool.

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And, and so I saw that whole side of our

industry and, and was really blown away by

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that and, and very, very, very impressed

by a lot of what those people were doing.

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Um, so the other way that foundation

DB really matters to the subsequent

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trajectory is it gave us, you know,

me and Dave, a lot of the ideas

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that led us to start this company.

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FoundationDB, we're trying to build

a distributed database, which is

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a very hard thing to build, and

a very hard thing to get right.

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And so in order to do that, We

invested in building a really radically

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different approach to software testing.

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Um, and it's in many ways the

precursor or the inspiration to

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the product that we've built here.

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Right?

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So we're trying to take the thing that we

made for FoundationDB to make it possible

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to test that software and to find all

the bugs in it before customers did.

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We're trying to make that

easy for everybody to do here.

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Um, and you know, that was actually

very much influenced also by

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what we saw afterwards, right?

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Like we, we got bought by apple in 2015

and went there and you know, I apple

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is full of like super smart people.

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It's a very, very high talent

density company, but they did not

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have the internal tools that we

had at foundation db and like, that

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was like, clearly evident in how

people operated and made decisions.

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And, you know, at, at Google, which

I left Apple and went to Google and

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I saw much the same thing, you know,

I worked on a team at Google that was

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also building a distributed database.

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a system called Spanner, which was

a very, very impressive team, really

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smart people, tons of really smart

people, but again, lacking in tools,

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which could tell them right away

when they were making a mistake.

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And that just like, that just

makes you have to work in

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such a different way, right?

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Like it means that you're always

worrying, Hey, is, is this code

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that I'm writing going to cause

some huge problem in production?

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Like, you know, how can I, how can

I reason through this correctly?

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How can I like, you know, how

can I have some confidence

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that this is going to be right?

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You know, and, and I, and I

suddenly realized then that my

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experience at FoundationDB had

been really atypical, right?

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Like having this ability to just

like press a button and find out

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if what you'd done was good or not.

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It was like actually not

how most of the industry,

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Tim Winkler: which is wild, you know, to

see that the biggest tech companies in the

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world, you know, weren't adapting to this

kind of philosophy that you all had kind

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of figured out at foundation DB, which is

just, it's gotta be that aha moment that

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that light bulbs going off, like, wow,

there really is something here, you know?

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Will Wilson: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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And you know, my first, my first concern

and actually also Dave's first concern

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was like, There's no free lunch, right?

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Like there's no, there's no hundred

dollar bills lying on sidewalks.

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So if we at our tiny startup,

we're doing this and it was like so

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transformative for us and these like

giant companies aren't doing it.

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Like there must be some reason, right?

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There must be some secret reason why

it's not a good idea or it's impossible.

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Or like, you can't really do this

at a large scale or something.

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Right.

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But you know, but actually what

we've realized, like, there are some

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reasons that, that make it harder.

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And, and a lot of those are things that

we've tried to directly address with

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our product and with our technology.

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But at the end of the day,

like the efficient markets

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hypothesis is just wrong.

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There actually is like, there actually

is stuff out there that would just make

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the world better that nobody's doing.

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And if you think you've spotted it

and like, you kind of rule out all

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the other possibilities, like you, you

may actually have found such a thing.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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The, uh, the blog that you wrote that I

stumbled across that kind of led me down

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to, you know, sending you a note and

wanted to chat with you is, um, uh, titled

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is something, is something bugging you.

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And, um, in that blog, you, you do relate

to You relate to starting a company, you

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know, kind of like telling yourself that

when you reach this pit full of poisonous

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spikes, you'll figure something out.

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Expand on that a little bit for me.

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Cause I think that, you know,

you, you point that out a

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couple of times in the blog.

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I think that's just a fascinating example.

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Will Wilson: Yeah.

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Well, so the, I guess the point I

was trying to make there is that.

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Usually every company is going

to have something about it.

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That's hard, right?

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Like I just said a second ago that

I don't believe in the efficient

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markets hypothesis, but like, maybe I

believe in a slightly weaker version

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of it, which is like, if something is

trivially easy and obviously a good idea,

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somebody will probably have done it.

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So if, if it's a, if it's a really

good idea and nobody's done it

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yet, there's probably something

about it that is challenging.

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Tim Winkler: Right.

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Will Wilson: And so, you know, different

companies have different things about

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them that are challenging, right?

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Some of them.

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Like the product is really hard to build.

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Some of them, the product is easy

to build, but it's hard to sell.

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Like some of them it's easy

to build and easy to sell, but

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hard to find a competitive mode.

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Like.

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You know, it just depends on the area

and on the details of your thing.

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And I think it's very important to know,

or to at least have a guess going in.

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What is the hard part going to be?

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Sure.

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Cause there's probably a hard part and

you should probably have a plan for it.

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Tim Winkler: And we're some of

these, um, kind of alumni from

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foundation DB that they all kind

of got absorbed into Apple as well.

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Did, did, did you all kind of stay

in close connection here as you're

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moving on to Google and so forth?

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Um, I'm always curious on how the.

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That co founder connection, it kind of

stays, uh, relevant even post acquisition.

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Will Wilson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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We all stayed in touch socially,

even as we sort of diffused through

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a wide variety of companies, like,

you know, I would say about half to

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three quarters of us all joined Apple.

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Some people decided not to, um, you

know, once we got there, some people

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quickly moved to other parts of Apple.

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Some of us like, like me

moved to other companies.

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But, you know, we all stayed pretty close.

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Like, you know, we had all been

working together, um, on this

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startup for like four or five

years by the time we were bought.

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And so we were, we were close.

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Like we had kids the same age, you know,

people, you know, people knew each other.

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It was a, it was a very tight

knit team in a lot of ways.

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And.

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It's been awesome getting

the gang back together

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Tim Winkler: for sure.

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Yeah, it's always, um, you can pinpoint

a lot of times with the, within an

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entrepreneur's journey that, uh, kind

of like a central role that kind of

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stands out as like, you know, that

was like the, the premise to all of,

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all of what's, you know, building

in, in, in your current venture.

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Um, and so, you know, really quick,

like, uh, diving into the, the,

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uh, creation of Antithesis here.

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So you're, you're spending your time

at Google at this point and, you know,

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sounds like you all are kind of in

communication about the idea, uh, you

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know, how does that all kind of come

together and when do you, you kind of make

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the jump to, you know, to, to leave Google

and go head first and do this thing.

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Will Wilson: Yeah, so basically, um,

Dave had already left Apple and was

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getting ready to move back to the

East Coast when I sort of thought, you

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know, there really is a company here.

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Like, you know, I, I was at Google.

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I was like seeing all these frustrations,

seeing frustrations my team was having.

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And I was like, so I started messaging

Dave and I was like, look, man,

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you, you, you've quit your job.

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You need something else to do.

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You know what?

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Like, like let's do this.

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And Dave is like a, is

like a super genius.

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And so I sort of gave him my whole

idea for how this should work and

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how the product should be architected

and what it should do and so on.

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And he sort of thought about it.

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I remember, I still remember this.

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We got lunch and he sort of,

explained to me, back to me

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how the product should work.

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But his version was just

like 10 times better.

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And so I'm like, at that point, I'm

like, okay, Dave, like, I need you, man.

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Like, you know, you need

to, you need to do this.

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And he's like, nah, I want

to, I want to take a vacation.

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He moved back to DC and I

stayed in touch with him.

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Um, At one point, I was on a work

trip, uh, for Google in Singapore.

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I was there training a bunch of our

sales guys for Google Cloud, telling them

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about product features in Google Cloud.

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And, um, You know, I remember I was up

in the middle of the night because I

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was totally jet lagged and you know,

there was like nobody who I could talk

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to in Singapore and so I was just like

texting with Dave and being like, look,

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man, like this company is a great idea.

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Here's why it's a great idea.

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And like, you know, that that was

like, actually, we were like in very

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close communication for that week.

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And finally, by the end of it,

he was like, all right, fine.

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Like, I don't actually

want to do a vacation.

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I do want to start

another company, you know?

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And so as soon as, as soon as I had

him on board, like I definitely like

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Dave immediately starts thinking

about how is this going to work?

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What is the right way to build this?

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What is this product going to look like?

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And like, I realized that I did not

want to be having those conversations

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while still employed at another

company, just for any avoidance of

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any kind of, like, question about, you

know, where I was working at the time.

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So basically, I was immediately

like, don't talk to me

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about this until I've quit.

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And, and immediately set about,

you know, leaving Google, um, and

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then moving back to the East coast.

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Cause we decided to

start the company here.

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So from the moment that we decided to do

it until the moment that I moved East,

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not a lot of time, maybe one month.

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Tim Winkler: Wow.

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That's exciting.

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You've been to Singapore since

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Will Wilson: I wish,

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Tim Winkler: I wish I, uh,

the food there is incredible.

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It's where the magic happened.

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Awesome.

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All right.

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So, so now I want to, you know, pivot

into Antithesis here and then we're

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going to go into stealth mode world

for a little bit, but give me the, um,

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yeah, give me kind of like the, the,

the elevator pitch on, on Antithesis.

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Will Wilson: Okay, so if you're a software

engineer, um, you probably know that most

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software engineers spend, I think, stripes

at a survey, and they estimate about half

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their time on testing, debugging, dealing

with production emergencies, and CAs.

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You know, dealing with bugs or

inconsistencies in the libraries or the

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dependencies that your code has, you know,

figuring out triaging issues coming in

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from production and figuring out which

ones are bugs, which ones aren't like.

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By the way, like a lot of non

engineers who are in tech don't

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realize that this is what engineers

spend half their time doing, right?

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In fact, it might be quite a

lot more than half their time.

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Um, they're, they're surprised

when they hear that, but I

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think every engineer knows it.

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So, so now ask yourself, is this your

like favorite half of your day or

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your least favorite half of your day?

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And I think for most people, it's

their least favorite half of the day.

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Okay.

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We're software engineers, right?

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Like, why don't we, why

don't we like automate this?

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Why don't we get rid of this?

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Why don't we have somebody else

like have a computer do this

409

part of our jobs if we hate it?

410

Like, that's the usual

thing software engineers do.

411

Um, well, it turns out it's

actually very, very hard, right?

412

Conventional testing, like writing

a test that your software, you

413

know, when you do a, it does B.

414

isn't very good at preventing you from

running into bugs later in production,

415

because you tend to test the paths or the

situations that you thought of, right?

416

That's almost definitional.

417

But the things that you thought of are

also the things where you probably wrote

418

the code correctly in the first place.

419

Like the things that lead to actual

problems, the things that cause

420

all this wasted time and energy,

are the things you didn't think of.

421

They're the unknown unknowns, the

things that happen in the real world

422

that you never imagined could happen.

423

And so because of that, testing is

like a pretty good way of catching

424

regressions in behavior that you,

you know, already made correct.

425

It's a really bad way of like forward

looking, ensuring that something works.

426

Um, so our approach here is to try

to turn this all on its head and say,

427

instead of writing tests, like you're

never going to write another test.

428

Instead, what you're going to do is

you're just going to tell us what

429

your software is supposed to do.

430

You're going to say, you know,

these are the high level properties

431

or invariants that it has, right?

432

And depending on the kind of

software, this could be really

433

different types of things, right?

434

Like if it's a database, it might

be like, it should never crash.

435

If it says it stored your data, it

should have actually stored your data.

436

You know, if it go, it can go through

arbitrarily bad network situations, but

437

then if everything quiets down again,

and it's reachable again, after 10

438

seconds, it should be back up, right?

439

If you're making a website, it

could be totally different stuff.

440

It could be like every,

there's no broken links.

441

I can get to every page.

442

I can complete the checkout flow.

443

If you're making a computer game, it could

be like, it's possible to beat the game.

444

I can load every asset in the game.

445

Right?

446

Like, but like in every case,

it's like kind of high level,

447

what it's supposed to do.

448

And then we, by we I mean

computers, are gonna try to find

449

ways of proving you wrong, right?

450

We're gonna try to construct test cases

dynamically, like, that take some path

451

that you weren't expecting that show

you a way of making your software do

452

something that it wasn't supposed to do.

453

And this like, this solves a whole

bunch of problems at one fell swoop.

454

It solves one really big problem.

455

Which is the one I said, right?

456

Unknown unknowns.

457

Like, you've just said what you

think your software is supposed

458

to do, and we're going to find

some way of making it not do that.

459

And the way we do that might be really

surprising to you, but it might be really

460

important, because it might be something

that you hit in production next week.

461

Um, another problem it solves, though,

is like maintainability of tests.

462

Because, like, the thing that, one thing

that's bad about testing is, you know,

463

Often, your tests depend on very low level

implementation details of your software.

464

And that means that every time you change

your software, you, like, break all your

465

tests and you have to change those too.

466

And this is like a maintenance

burden and a maintenance nightmare.

467

And so, but, but the high level,

like, what is your software

468

actually supposed to do?

469

Like, its specification.

470

That changes much more slowly

than its implementation, right?

471

And so like expressing these properties,

like it should never crash, it

472

should be available after 10 seconds,

whatever, like that tends to not have

473

to change with every single commit.

474

And so what it means at the end of the day

is that you're spending way, way, way, way

475

less time writing tests and maintaining

tests and trying to figure it out.

476

Um,

477

both of these things like directly attack

major time wastes for, for engineers.

478

And then I guess the third thing that's

quite unique about our approach is that

479

And, you know, and that's, that's pretty

cool is, um, we've developed a way to

480

run any computer system, any collection

of software fully deterministically,

481

meaning that, like, no matter what random

weird stuff your software does, like, we

482

can make it do it again, always perfect.

483

Um, so that's really cool because,

you know, oftentimes people have

484

like flaky bugs or flaky tests.

485

There's this bug.

486

It, you know, it breaks on your

computer, but works on your buddies

487

or like even worse than that.

488

Like it breaks 1 out of every 1000

times or 1 out of every million times.

489

And, you know, that's often

enough that your customers will

490

totally hit it all the time.

491

And it'll be really hard for

you to track it down though.

492

Right?

493

Or it like, Or it like,

you know, it breaks.

494

And then when you add some

debugging code, it's stopped.

495

Like the problem goes away, right?

496

Like this kind of stuff, like also sucks

up countless hours of people's time.

497

And like, we just completely

eliminate that problem.

498

Uh, which is also pretty cool.

499

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

500

The, the, uh, future of like, I've

deterministic testing and autonomous

501

systems, you know, it sounds like

you guys are, are really, you know,

502

tackling those problems head on.

503

And I don't.

504

You know, I don't hear too much of

a, of other companies kind of like

505

probing in on that deterministic

testing piece of things.

506

So it's a really interesting concept.

507

Um, Just talking generally about

the company, it's at large.

508

So when, when, when did you all

formally kind of stand up shop?

509

Will Wilson: I think it was 2017, 2018,

510

Tim Winkler: one of those years.

511

So about six or seven

years old at this point.

512

Um, and what's the current

head count of Antithesis?

513

We're just

514

Will Wilson: about at 50.

515

Tim Winkler: Okay.

516

Yeah.

517

And, um, from a funding perspective, I

guess how, you know, how much funding,

518

uh, have you all received at this point?

519

Will Wilson: In total, we've

raised, I think, just shy of

520

47 million over that period.

521

And the, the company has a

headquarters in Arlington, Virginia.

522

Tim Winkler: Uh, yeah, we're actually in

Tyson's corner, Arlington and you, the

523

bulk of your team kind of virtual or is it

524

Will Wilson: we're, we're pretty

much all in person, which I guess

525

these days weird, weird, it's rare.

526

Yeah, it's

527

Tim Winkler: cool though.

528

I think, uh, getting back to that from

a culture perspective is super key

529

and important for early stage startup.

530

So kudos, kudos on making that

decision and sticking to it.

531

Um, so I want to pivot a little bit more

into, into the stealth mode journey.

532

Um, so as we mentioned, you know,

Antithesis, you all remain in stealth

533

mode for over five years, which

is unusual, uh, for, for startups.

534

Can you dive a little bit deeper

into, you know, what you would say

535

were some of those key decisions

and, and what https: otter.

536

ai Yeah.

537

Totally.

538

Will Wilson: So, you know, the first, I

think the first thing just to get out of

539

the way is like, we had the opportunity

to stay in stealth for a very long time.

540

Many people don't like, and we had that

opportunity because we got really lucky.

541

Like basically we had a prior big

success and a lot of investors

542

who were excited about Yeah.

543

Yep.

544

Taking another spin with that team, right?

545

And so that meant that we had

access to capital and it meant

546

that we had access to investors

without having to make a big splash.

547

And that's not an option

that everybody has, right?

548

If it's your first company and you're

a kid in the garage or, or, you

549

know, or a middle aged person in the

garage, um, you, you, you may need

550

to make a big splash in order to

attract the attention of an investor.

551

Um, and so then stealth is

sort of off the table for you.

552

And that's, you know,

that's just like one way.

553

And we were very lucky here is we

had the option of doing that because

554

we had existing relationships with

people who wanted to give us money.

555

So, so that's what made it possible.

556

And then the question is like,

and by the way, it's actually

557

not just access to money.

558

It's also access to talent, right?

559

Because hiring while you're in stealth

is actually super, super challenging.

560

But again, like we had, you know,

a previous team that we'd worked

561

with very closely for a long time.

562

We were all still really

tight, really in touch.

563

You know, we had gone on to meet

more people at Apple and Google and

564

other places and could bring in a

whole bunch of those people as well.

565

And so, you know, between both capital and

talent, we had ways of getting access to

566

it without, without coming out of stuff.

567

So then the question is like,

why would you still like, even

568

if you have the opportunity, why

would you ever want to do that?

569

Um, and basically, basically we

knew, like, it's a trajectory

570

that's like maybe a little bit more

common for like a hardware company.

571

Like the thing about our technology and

our approach, Was that there was just

572

an awful lot that we had to do before we

could like, even possibly start working

573

with customers like we had to write this

hypervisor, which can take any software

574

and run it deterministically took a little

while and that that was, you know, it's

575

not like writing a website like that.

576

That's hard.

577

And then we, then we had to write

the system, which takes that

578

thing and intelligently explores

all the possible trajectories

579

and paths your code could take.

580

And that's also really hard,

you know, and that took a while.

581

And then, then we had to write the

thing that like takes all the results

582

from that and like visualizes them for

you and like makes it possible for a

583

human being to understand what it did.

584

And, and that's a whole nother

challenge of a very different kind.

585

That's, that's also really hard.

586

And we're like, you know, it's going

to take us years to do these things.

587

And kind of would like, there's not

a whole, there's not like really an

588

MVP that we can just get out there

and have a customer start using.

589

We kind of need to get it all working.

590

Right?

591

And in the meantime, we're looking around

the market and, and this was a time

592

when, you know, money was raining from

the skies in terms of tech investment.

593

And, and we're like, nobody

else is really doing this.

594

Like, do we really want to

go get the whole world super

595

excited about this right now?

596

Or do we want to try and get a

big technology head start and then

597

get the world excited about it?

598

And that latter choice

seemed more attractive to us.

599

Um, and, you know, I, I think on balance,

it was probably the right choice.

600

I think I appreciate now that we're

out of stealth, all of the, all of

601

the sort of unseen costs that being

in stealth for a long time has.

602

Um, so you, you mentioned challenges.

603

There are actually many,

um, one of them is morale.

604

I think we never like

had really bad morale.

605

Like we never really struggled with

that, but like today we have really,

606

really good morale and like significantly

better than, you know, before we came

607

out of stealth before we launched.

608

And, you know, that's just like the most

natural thing about human beings, right?

609

Like, It's like, it's really hard to

work on something day in day out and

610

not be allowed to tell anybody about it.

611

Right.

612

Like, and like, you know, it's

hard for me, it's even harder for

613

somebody I hire who's a new grad,

you know, whose mom is probably like,

614

why aren't you working at Facebook?

615

Why aren't you working at open AI?

616

What is the stupid company

I've never heard of, right?

617

Like, it's really nice for, for

that person to be able to send an

618

article to their mom and be like, no,

look, this company is actually cool.

619

It actually exists and

does something right.

620

Like You know, not just that kind of

morale either, but like once you're

621

out there, once people are reacting

to you, once, you know, once you're

622

reacting to them, suddenly people

conceptualize themselves differently.

623

Like it's not like our company

is this like hermetic, isolated

624

environment and we have like

various struggles and challenges.

625

Now it's like us against the world.

626

And like, yeah, You know, everybody's

pulling in the same direction and people

627

are directly seeing the effects of what

they do out there in the world, right?

628

And like some rando on Twitter is

like, Oh, this is such a cool feature.

629

Like the guy who wrote that feature

is now going to have a great day.

630

Like it just like, it just sort of points

everybody in the same direction and

631

catalyzes them in a way that's really,

really hard to do while you're in stealth.

632

Um, the other thing, uh, the last

thing I'll mention, and then I'll,

633

I'll let you ask a question is, um,

Is like, so much of life is about

634

luck, and you can't control luck.

635

You can control, like, the

ability to of good and bad luck

636

to strike to a certain extent.

637

Like, and when you're in stealth, you

just make it really, really hard for

638

serendipity of any kind to happen.

639

Like, I'll give you an example, you

stumbling across that blog post and

640

sending me an email, you know, obviously

there would be no possible way for that

641

to happen when we're completely secret.

642

Right.

643

That was just like, that was good luck.

644

That was like a random thing

that the universe through my way.

645

But like, it's because I put myself

in the position for that to happen by

646

writing a blog post and being out there.

647

And it's like the same way with hiring.

648

It's the same way with customers.

649

It's the same way with like people

randomly sending me an email with like

650

a really good idea for like a product

feature or like, Hey, you're an idiot.

651

It shouldn't work this way.

652

Right.

653

Like all of that stuff just like

cannot happen at anywhere near the

654

same scale when you're in stealth.

655

Right.

656

Yeah.

657

And that is, I think,

maybe the biggest cost.

658

And it's one that's like

totally hidden as well.

659

Tim Winkler: Yeah, it's such a fascinating

point because I think a lot of people

660

when they think about running stealth,

you know, they're going to think about

661

the obvious things like you pointed

out recruiting being a challenge.

662

You know, I could tell you firsthand

trying to recruit talent for a

663

stealth mode startup is probably

the most difficult thing we've ever

664

had to do because you're selling.

665

This thing that you can't talk about,

you know, it's like selling something

666

that you're, you're so secretive about

is, it's just extremely difficult.

667

It's already hard enough to sell

a startup, even if it's publicly

668

out there and everything else is.

669

Is known, but to keep a lot of those

things behind the curtain, um, makes it,

670

you know, 10 times more challenging, but

nobody really talks about the, the morale

671

piece to it, you know, the, the thing

that everybody's, you know, going back

672

home to their, their family and, you know,

another day on the job, but it's like, I

673

can't even look you up, you're, you're,

you guys up on a website, you know, it's

674

like, it's, you start to find you almost

like Folks don't even believe like it's,

675

it's real, you know, um, and I think that

is, uh, a very interesting perspective

676

that I, I have never really heard about

from the internal team, that cultural

677

perspective, that team morale perspective

that, um, can really, you know, start

678

to weigh on folks if it's one year, but

five years, you know, so, you know, it's

679

almost like this, um, Um, you know, all

this bottled up energy that, you know,

680

finally just gets to be released when

you, when you all made the decision to,

681

to, to, you know, be, be publicly known.

682

Um, did you, uh, you know, what was

the strategy and, and were you, you

683

know, how, how are those conversations

had, uh, between the team on how we're

684

going to do it in this, why this is

now the right time and everything else?

685

Will Wilson: Yeah.

686

I mean, I think the single biggest reason

that we decided to come out of stealth

687

was, um, well, it was really twofold.

688

Number one.

689

Most of the advantages of being in

stealth were evaporating because

690

the world had moved into a much more

challenging fundraising climate.

691

Right.

692

And so we were suddenly a lot

less worried about a new well

693

funded competitor showing up.

694

And we're also a lot less worried

about some big tech company

695

spinning up a team to do this.

696

Like big tech companies are

laying people off right now.

697

They're not like funding

super speculative efforts.

698

And so like, it just seemed like,

like that reason had gone away.

699

And then on the flip side, the opportunity

for us coming out of stealth was much,

700

much greater because we had just sort

of finally like finished our product

701

and like made it like quite good and

made it quite scalable and made it

702

so that the company could take on

a lot of new customers all at once.

703

And so we were like,

all right, this is it.

704

Like, let's hit go.

705

Um, obviously, like, that

wasn't an overnight thing.

706

Like, there was a lot that we had to do.

707

And like, so much of that work was

incredibly valuable, even if it hadn't,

708

like, Even if it hadn't led to us coming

out of stealth, like, like, like one

709

of the first and most important things

we had to do was like make a website.

710

We had no website.

711

That sounds crazy, right?

712

But we had no website.

713

Okay.

714

What's going on the website?

715

Well, I guess on the website,

we should tell people what

716

it is we do and how it works.

717

Okay.

718

Well, what is it we do?

719

Like, you know, like we

obviously had some idea, right?

720

We had some vision of the problem

we're solving and how it cashes

721

out, but like we had never.

722

Like in a systematic and disciplined

way, sat down and come up with exactly

723

how you would explain this to somebody

and like what, you know, and just like

724

that exercise of like what would go

on our website actually clarified.

725

Many other like strategic questions

and like, what, what, what product

726

feature should we be working on?

727

Like suddenly it's kind of apparent,

like, because we know what we

728

want to put on the website, right?

729

And there's just like a lot of

things like that, where the act of

730

preparing yourself to present this

to the world forces you to confront

731

certain questions that are actually

very important for you to confront.

732

Um, So that was, you know, like our

product basically barely had a user

733

interface before we came out of stealth.

734

Like it was extremely cobbled together.

735

And we were sort of like, okay, if we're

going to show this to the world and we're

736

going to have a demo on our website, yes,

it should have a user interface, right?

737

Like, I guess there should

be something like, okay, like

738

maybe we should work on that.

739

Right.

740

Like it just like, it does

sort of force you to, to think

741

about it in a different way.

742

And, and, and that's,

and that's really good.

743

You know, and then the

other strategic question is

744

our, our long term plans are really big.

745

Um, but in the short term, we

can't do all that stuff yet.

746

And so like, you kind of need to

figure out, like, how am I going

747

to define this company right now?

748

Like when we come out of stealth, like,

it's like, they're a blank company.

749

Like, what is that?

750

Like, what do we say that

we are day one, right?

751

Right.

752

Even with the knowledge that.

753

10 years down the line, it

might look very, very different.

754

And like that strategic question

is also a really, really

755

important one to figure out.

756

And, uh, you know, also a thing that we

had to, we had to spend some time on.

757

Tim Winkler: Did you guys have,

um, much of a go to market team,

758

uh, at this point, or was it

really just primarily tech folks?

759

Will Wilson: Yeah, we had a, we had

a small sales team, um, go to market.

760

Yeah, we had, we had three

people working on that.

761

Wow.

762

Um, and they were, I mean, they, they,

they had a very tough job, right?

763

Because they were trying to

sell something with no website.

764

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

765

Will Wilson: To sophisticated

business buyers.

766

Who, you know, would hear about it

and they'd be like, wait a minute.

767

This thing is like a scam.

768

Like, how could this be possibly be real?

769

Right.

770

And so that was, that was

very challenging for them.

771

And.

772

You know, but I actually think

there's some ways in which that,

773

like, is like amazing training, right?

774

Like, it's like, it's like professional

athletes, like practice with ankle

775

weights and like, you know, Roman

gladiators used like heavy wooden swords.

776

So when they actually got the

real sword, it'd be way easier.

777

You know, Demosthenes, like gave speeches

with a mouthful of marbles, you know,

778

like Like, like suddenly, like being able

to send people like product demos and

779

websites and stuff and like, you know,

other reference customers, it's just like,

780

it's like, Oh, like now it's easy to sell.

781

Tim Winkler: Right.

782

I mean, even just like sending them

some swag or something, you know, like

783

I could see in the background, like,

uh, is this your all, it's kind of like

784

your, your mascot is like an anteater.

785

Will Wilson: Yeah, this is a mascot.

786

These are actually like a couple

of failed mascots, like eventual

787

success roundup on the website.

788

But these are some like.

789

You know, mid journey generated

ones that we decide not to go with.

790

Tim Winkler: Yeah, I dig it though.

791

But you know, even something as small

as that, you know, just like, yeah,

792

that's all part of branding and marketing

and just being able to go out there

793

and show like, yeah, here, here it is.

794

Here's, here's who we are.

795

Um, yeah.

796

Having that training, uh, without

any ammunition is, is, uh, yeah,

797

it'll harden somebody and, but make

them a better, a better salesperson.

798

So I think that's a

fascinating perspective.

799

Um, so, so now you guys have,

have been out, you know, publicly

800

known, um, for, for how long?

801

About three months.

802

And have you, you know, what have you

seen as the biggest upside now that, you

803

know, the, in these last three months,

has it been from, you know, an uptick

804

in, in recruiting has been easier, sales,

you know, what, what is it that you've

805

seen, um, as a, as a drastic change?

806

Will Wilson: It's, it's been unreal.

807

Like, I mean, I would say.

808

I would say honestly, the most, most

obvious and apparent thing is just

809

like every day I walk in the office

and the energy is so different.

810

Everybody is like still riding

that high from coming out of

811

stealth, which is pretty cool.

812

Tim Winkler: That's cool.

813

Will Wilson: Um, and, and people are

really excited and really motivated

814

to, to make this thing happen.

815

Like yeah, like it has been obviously

completely revolutionary for sales in so

816

far as people can now find out about us.

817

You know, we have, we have

inbound for the first time ever.

818

Right.

819

That's, that's pretty cool.

820

Um, you know, it's helpful.

821

Yes, it's helpful.

822

That's right.

823

It's been good for recruiting too.

824

It's, it's, yeah, it's been, it's

been good for a lot of things.

825

Um, you know, like I, I do ask myself

sometimes, like, was it the right

826

decision to stay in stealth for so long?

827

And I think that like, you know,

828

hard to, it's hard to say for I think

that like, It was the right decision

829

to do it for quite a long time.

830

I think if I had to do it all over

again, I might've done the launch

831

like six months earlier or something,

but, but I think we did actually get a

832

lot of strategic benefit out of being

so quiet for such a long time while

833

we built this futuristic technology.

834

It's just like, you know, if you, if you

listener are thinking of doing that, be

835

aware that there are very real costs.

836

Yeah.

837

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

838

And I think that you make a really

valid point with the, you know, it's

839

been a crazy time in the market for

tech, uh, in the last, you know,

840

four years since the pandemic, right.

841

It's been this kind of roller

coaster of, like you mentioned, you

842

know, you know, time and a place

of, of raising, you know, funds.

843

Yeah.

844

2021.

845

I mean, there's no better

time to be raising capital.

846

Uh, you fast forward, you know,

a year and a half to two years

847

later, and it's pretty savage.

848

Um, and so, you know, the, the market

conditions and timing of everything,

849

you know, truly, you know, probably, you

know, it sounds like you, you acknowledge

850

played a big part in your ability to

let's extend the timeline a little bit.

851

We don't have to be so rushed.

852

Um, I think that's a very different

argument for somebody that's

853

maybe trying to operate right now.

854

That's totally, uh, under,

under the gun, but yeah,

855

Will Wilson: like interest, like

interest rates being higher just means

856

everybody's looking for a faster return.

857

That's right.

858

Includes investors.

859

That includes you, the founder, right?

860

That includes everybody.

861

Yeah.

862

And so, you know, that does mean

that does mean you should be

863

looking for opportunities that

can pay off a little quicker.

864

That's right.

865

Tim Winkler: Um, well that's kind

of a, you know, it's kind of put a

866

bow on, on the, uh, the stealth mode

discussion and, um, you know, just

867

one, one final question, uh, in terms

of, you know, looking forward towards

868

the future, um, you know, what do you

kind of anticipate or see within like

869

those areas of deterministic testing

and Autonomous systems evolving, any,

870

anything that you're really excited about?

871

And obviously this will play into, you

know, what it is that you're building,

872

but any, any, uh, hot takes or anything

that you're, you're anticipating?

873

Will Wilson: I think the,

everybody seems to be very excited.

874

Well, no, a year ago, everybody was

very excited about LLMs writing code.

875

I think now we're sort of like maybe

entering the hangover phase where

876

people are like, wait a minute,

these things write code really

877

fast and it's not all correct.

878

And, you know, And also someday

I'm going to have to modify this

879

code or read it or understand it.

880

And it having been produced

by this machine makes it

881

much harder to do all that.

882

And so I think that is going

to, but at the same time,

883

there's like real value there.

884

If you could make good use of

these things, writing code for you.

885

And so I think that's just

going to put a lot of pressure

886

on testing practices, right?

887

Like being able to have any kind

of confidence that this thing that

888

chat GPT spat out is gonna like Do

the right thing and not crash your

889

computer is like suddenly gonna, it's

going to take on way more salience.

890

And so I think for that reason,

it's like a very, very exciting

891

time to be in the like software

testing or QA space, which is like

892

sort of a funny thing to say, right?

893

Like software testing and QA

sounds like the most boring,

894

horrible thing ever, right?

895

It's like taking out garbage.

896

Um, which, which is one reason I like it.

897

It's like a reason people don't do it.

898

So, so then I get to do it.

899

Um, but.

900

But yeah, I think, I think it's

like probably the most important

901

time to be working on this problem.

902

And so I think it's going to be cool.

903

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

904

That's a good analogy.

905

The dirty jobs analogy.

906

Um, but there's a reason that, you know,

garbage men get paid pretty well too.

907

Like nobody else wants to do that job.

908

Um, Cool.

909

All right.

910

I think that's a, that's a

good wrap on, on a little bit

911

of your journey and the story.

912

And I think we'll close with, um,

our five second scramble segment.

913

So this is, uh, just a little fun

rapid fire Q and a, we're going

914

to bounce a couple of questions

your way and, and yeah, try to

915

answer them within five seconds.

916

We're not going to air horn

you off or anything like that.

917

But, uh, yeah.

918

Uh, are you ready to jump into it?

919

I'm ready or not.

920

All right, uh, explain Antithesis

to me as if I were a five year old.

921

Will Wilson: Uh, we use AI

to find problems in software.

922

Tim Winkler: What is your favorite

part about the culture at Antithesis?

923

No assholes.

924

What type of technologist will thrive

925

Will Wilson: at Antithesis?

926

Somebody who likes working on hard stuff.

927

Tim Winkler: What are the, the top tech

roles that you're hiring for today?

928

Will Wilson: Oh, everything, man.

929

Tim Winkler: We'll, we'll direct

folks to the careers page, which

930

is now publicly facing, so.

931

That's right.

932

That's right.

933

Um, what, um, what is a charity

or corporate philanthropy

934

that's near and dear to you?

935

Corporate philanthropy.

936

Will Wilson: Um, I,

that's a good question.

937

I mean, do you want like stuff that's

like local in our area or stuff that's

938

like something that's maybe just

939

Tim Winkler: personal to you, you know,

something that's touched you and, you

940

know, over the years or something that,

you know, resonates with you that, uh,

941

you know, you, you'd like to donate to.

942

Will Wilson: Yeah, sure.

943

So I, I mean, I think there's a

lot of really, really good efforts,

944

um, to like anti malaria efforts,

like, you know, mosquito nets,

945

bed nets, that kind of thing.

946

I think that stuff has a huge impact and

is really, really good for the world.

947

And I think people should like

totally donate to that kind of stuff.

948

I also think it's like really important

to do something that's directly

949

involved in your own community

and that's like closer to home.

950

And, you know, so there's

like a bunch of churches in D.

951

C.

952

that have very active homeless

ministries that I've helped out with, and

953

there's a lot of homeless people in D.

954

C.

955

these days, and it's, it's a bit of a

crisis, and so that's, that's a thing

956

that, that my family's, uh, done some of.

957

Tim Winkler: Cool.

958

Yeah.

959

We like to highlight some of

those when we post this out.

960

So I'll, uh, I'll get you to, to

share, uh, some of the specific boards

961

that, uh, we can, we can highlight.

962

Um, which of your, your four

children is your favorite?

963

I'm just joking.

964

It's not a, not an answerable answer.

965

Um, describe for me your,

your morning routine,

966

Will Wilson: my morning routine.

967

I wake up and I

968

Usually at least one of my

children is already awake.

969

And so I get them dressed,

you know, feed them.

970

These days the bigger ones can

feed themselves, that's good.

971

Um, you know, I make myself tea or coffee.

972

I sadly check up on what's happened

with the company overnight.

973

I, um, I usually try to hang out with

my kids in the morning because by

974

evening, like I'm tired, they're tired.

975

There's still an opportunity for

hanging out, but like, it's a little

976

bit, it has just a different character.

977

Um, and then once, once

everybody's off to school, I.

978

Come to work, or if it's a nice day, like

today, I bike to work, which is very nice.

979

Very cool.

980

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

981

Yeah.

982

It's a nice, nice routine.

983

I, I agree with you that the

morning hang with the, with the

984

kids is a different experience.

985

You're, you're, it's, you're less

burnout, you're not, you know, you're

986

kind of a little bit more present.

987

So, um, it's good perspective.

988

What's the worst fashion trend

that you've ever followed?

989

Uh,

990

Will Wilson: bell bottoms.

991

Tim Winkler: Solid.

992

Uh, what is something that you love

to do, but you're really bad at?

993

Will Wilson: Ooh, that's a

good, that's a good one, man.

994

Uh, sailing.

995

Tim Winkler: Oh, nice.

996

Will Wilson: Yeah.

997

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

998

It's not easy.

999

Will Wilson: It's not.

00:53:23,490 --> 00:53:26,960

And if I, I like to say, if I had

more time, I would be better at it.

00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:28,580

I don't have any time.

00:53:30,610 --> 00:53:33,240

Tim Winkler: Um, What was

your dream job as a kid?

00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:35,840

Will Wilson: I wanted

to be emperor of Mars.

00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:38,840

Seems like Elon's gonna beat me to it.

00:53:38,930 --> 00:53:40,140

Yeah, I mean, we're not

00:53:40,780 --> 00:53:41,599

Tim Winkler: too far off.

00:53:42,330 --> 00:53:44,500

Um, and then I'll close with this one.

00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:48,040

What, what, uh, who is your

favorite Disney character?

00:53:48,589 --> 00:53:51,169

Will Wilson: My favorite is,

man, it's been a long time

00:53:51,170 --> 00:53:52,360

since I watched a Disney movie.

00:53:55,715 --> 00:53:58,225

Tim Winkler: Well, now they own Star

Wars and all this, all the other fun.

00:54:00,435 --> 00:54:02,595

Will Wilson: Trying to think, um,

00:54:05,745 --> 00:54:07,575

I liked the beast in beauty and the beast.

00:54:09,095 --> 00:54:09,385

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

00:54:09,385 --> 00:54:11,884

Sensitive heart, you know, sensitive soul.

00:54:11,935 --> 00:54:12,334

That's right.

00:54:12,565 --> 00:54:15,145

But it was always, you

know, judged the wrong way.

00:54:15,354 --> 00:54:15,824

That's right.

00:54:16,185 --> 00:54:17,345

Good, good, good one.

00:54:17,365 --> 00:54:18,365

That's a first.

00:54:18,365 --> 00:54:21,855

We, we asked that question to most every

guest and never heard the beast before.

00:54:21,855 --> 00:54:24,065

So kudos on, on the uniqueness.

00:54:24,735 --> 00:54:25,794

Um, cool.

00:54:25,795 --> 00:54:28,685

Well, thank, uh, thank you so

much for spending time with us.

00:54:28,685 --> 00:54:32,895

Well, we're I'm excited for the

future of what you all are building at

00:54:33,165 --> 00:54:37,665

Antipasis and you know, you're you're an

awesome entrepreneur and a good human.

00:54:37,865 --> 00:54:41,455

Good luck on the new addition

to the family and uh, we're

00:54:41,455 --> 00:54:42,565

uh, we're rooting for you all.

00:54:42,575 --> 00:54:44,274

Thanks for, for hanging

out with us on the pod.

00:54:44,665 --> 00:54:45,114

Will Wilson: Thanks man.

00:54:45,155 --> 00:54:45,934

Thanks so much for having me.

00:54:45,934 --> 00:54:47,104

Transcribed