How often have you said something quite ordinary to a parent, or they’ve said something to you and suddenly the room feels like it’s about to explode? Welcome to the parental nightmare. It’s not just about conflict, it’s about what’s hidden underneath these relationships – family secrets, unspoken stories, patterns of behaviour passed from one generation to the next.

In this episode Clare and Aileen explore the complex, often lifelong, relationship we have with our parents and discuss practical strategies to help you navigate this important relationship.

Dip into some of the things Clare and Aileen chat about in this episode:

02:34 The shifting nature of parental relationships throughout our lives

09:51 So much is hidden in relationships between children and their parents

15:22 Not everyone wants to be a parent

18:51 Unrequited parental love and the roles we play

25:32 Parenting our parents

38:32 You are not alone

Want to know more?

Visit our website: The Sex and Relationships Podcast for more information on the issues discussed in this episode. You can also Ask Clare a question or suggest a topic for future episodes.

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About the Sex and Relationships Podcast

This podcast is for anyone looking for information or help with their sex lives or relationships.In this season your hosts Clare Prendergast and Aileen Gonsalves deep dive into the world of relationships to give you insights, advice and top tips to help guide you through your relationships.

Your hosts

Clare Prendergast is a sex and relationships therapist and draws on her knowledge and years of experience in the therapy room to give you help and guidance.

Aileen Gonsalves is fascinated in human behaviour and drawing on her many years in the theatre has developed the unique Gonsalves Method which helps people be more present and develop authentic connections with those around them.

Clare 0:04

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Sex and Relationships podcast. I'm Clare Prendergast and I'm here with my dear friend Aileen Gonsalves.

Aileen 0:13

Hi, everyone.

Clare 0:14

Hi, Aileen. Today we're going to talk about something we've called the parental minefield. We're going to talk about all the challenges that can be part of the parental minefield. And then we're going to give you a load of strategies around what you can do to navigate it. So, Aileen, would you like to kick us off?

Aileen 0:35

Yeah. I mean, it really is a minefield, isn't it? But I was going to just think about the first word that we're saying there, parental in that, you know, there are so many different kinds of parents. There's your, you know, the parents who gave birth to you. I mean, you might have adoptive parents, you might have stepparents, you know, blended families. Then, of course, there's people that might have been your grandparents who actually ended up looking after you. You know, there's quite a kind of mix, isn't there?

Clare 0:59

Yes. And of course, there's ourselves as parents. And I tell you, listening to you list all the different kinds of parents that we can have in our life. I just notice myself sort of, you know, this is quite an activating subject. You know, my body is responding to this subject in quite a significant way. When I think of myself as a parent, and I think about my own parents. I never actually ever got married. But I think about my outlaw parents, which is what I love calling them my parents outlaw rather than my parents in law. But, yeah, it's a weighty topic.

Yeah, because I think it is worth bringing these things to the surface. We sort of decide that it's actually not a good thing. You know, we've got a bad relationship or a good relationship, and then that's sort of it. We go, oh yeah, I was yeah, we just move on. I was lucky, I was unlucky.

And I think the really kind of significant or juicy thing about this topic is it doesn't matter if we are in relationship with these people or even if they are still alive.

Ah, yes.

Our parental minefield remains throughout our lives. You know, we were all born of human beings. And that relationship from that newborn arrival, even if we were immediately handed over for adoption or we were whisked off to some other caregiver, we have in our bodies that relationship with the people who gave us life. And it remains throughout our lives.

You know, it's the sort of primary relationship, I don't know if you can call it that. It's the first relationship and those kind of habits and automatic things, those patterns, they get embedded there, potentially, but they're not embedded for the whole of our lives. We can address anything that went in by looking at it and thinking.

Yes, address it by looking at it. And also, as we go through our lifespan, if we're blessed with a long life, that relationship with the parental minefield. You know, it's different in the first decade to the teens, in our 20s and 30s it's different again. As we approach midlife, it's different again. If we have an active, engaged relationship with it.

Yeah, exactly.

It's something that is evolving and almost evolutionary in that it can change over time.

Yeah. Which is incredibly encouraging. I mean, I know that as a fact in my own life with my with my mum particularly, you know, my gosh, you know, completely different relationship when I was a child, to teenager, to going away from home, to being then married myself and then in her later years and, you know, she died very suddenly a few years ago, which I'll probably talk about a bit later. Because it's what you said earlier about once someone has died that does not mean that all the habits and things associated with that relationship aren't still there. I remember a therapist that she once said to me, it's really important to try and address this stuff when your mum and dad are alive, because don't think it's going to go anywhere once they die and they're definitely going to die.

Well, that's the optimum. That's the optimum. If you can address it in relationship with them. But those of us who are estranged from our parents or have actively walked away from our parents or our parents have died like your mum suddenly and we haven't had the opportunity to do that work in their lifetime. We can still do the work. It's different work, but we can still do the work. And I think that another kind of real value of having this conversation and thinking about this subject is if we become parents, I remember, you know, before conceiving and then during my pregnancy, you know, this whole kind of ideas I had around the kind of mum I was going to be and what my values were as a mum and how I was going to be a parent. And then my experience, you know, running so counter to that so many times, and it was almost as if there were occasions when, it's almost as if I was possessed. You know, I was engaging with my child, but my mother was coming through me. It's like the words that were coming out of my mouth, the body language I was employing, it was like Clare had left the building and I was my mum. And it was deeply shocking how those, you know, the energy and the impact of that first relationship. If we don't look at it and address it, it shows up. It shows up in our parenting. Or as you've said, it shows up in our significant intimate partnerships.

Yeah, I think that’s quite a common thing, Clare, that you're just describing. I'm thinking about friends of mine with children, and I know with my nephew when he was very, very young, being quite shocked at the voice that was coming out of me when I was telling him off or trying to get him to do something, I could hear my mum's voice and the judgmental part of it as well. You know, it was never the kind of positive mum's voice. Usually the telling of, you know. We have a pattern that we've been brought up in and that we think is the right way, or just the body and brain have learned a pattern.

I don't think it's that we think it's the right way. I think it's unconscious and it comes through us. And, you know, changing patterns to use your word, changing patterns through generations. You know, it is it is hard work and it doesn't I mean, what can happen. You can have like a pendulum swing, can't you? Whereas where so my parents did da da da da da. So, I'm going to do da da da da. Do you know it's a kind of reaction. But it's not very deeply processed. It's not very deeply reflected. It's coming out of that automatic reaction as opposed to sitting with it and pondering and reflecting and creating something fresh.

Yes. Because in a way, it's the ultimate form of rebellion possibly to say I'm not going to do what you did to me.

Well, that's what's kind of conscious. That's what's known. But then, as I said, you know, when I'm saying "put on your shoes!", it's it is that is the unconscious coming through.

Yeah.

You know, I look back now and I think, you know, how bad would it have been if my son had gone to school without shoes on? Do you know? I'm sure he wouldn't have done it the following day. Yeah. So, I was also thinking about the tropes and cliches that go with this. Do you know, culturally we have mother-in-law jokes at in wedding speeches, for example. You know, you think about all the Disney movies, but all the fairy tales, there's this, this evil stepmother trope.

Or the kind of henpecking mother, you know, the mother who's really dominant and kind of, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet the reality is, in many blended families, you know, this, this new alternative mother figure can be such a healing force in a child's life. Do you know where there's been a lot of dysfunction and conflict in the primary parent’s relationship.

You know, I know that I used to think, you know, when I was growing up, that my friends’ parents were much better than mine because they had dinner around the table or because, really, you're with your parents. It's the only thing, you know growing up. Then you go and see your friends and you spend the night at someone else's house. And it's like this completely eye opening experience of going, wow, they don't interrupt each other when they speak. How bizarre. You know, it's sort of all these different things. But I think everybody must feel that when they meet other people's parents, and invariably they're much better you decide than your own.

I remember a similar experience. It's my childhood home was quite, um. Yeah, it was, it was, you know, it was warm and it was dry and there was shelter and I was fed, but. And going to a friend's house and we had toast, and there was this tray of toppings for toast put on the table. And just being absolutely blown away by the Nutella and the peanut butter and the three different jams and two different honeys and, and just like, oh my gosh, some people have this in their houses. Whereas we would have one jar that was something that could go on toast. And when that jar was finished, there'd be another jar. So, it would be…...

Absolutely same here.

Oh, right.

Oh, gosh. Definitely. Yeah. And of course, you think about these poor parents. Everybody's doing their best with their different limited resources. You know, my mum and dad have come as refugees from Kenya at this point, you know, so we arrived when we were three. And we actually don't really ever talk about that period of time. But my gosh, that must have been hard for them.

The reason it's a minefield is because there's so much hidden in the relationship between children and parents. And that's that example you've given. You know, that period must have been so stressful for your family. You know, arriving in a strange country. I mean, just taking the weather, um, let alone where will we live and how will we earn a living? So, let's just not talk about it. I mean, in my family story, my grandfather got tuberculosis during the Second World War, and he was a young man. And I understand that for him, that was a terribly shameful illness to get in his head, it was equated with poor sanitation and poverty. And he just was completely traumatised that he'd got this illness. That meant he had to leave his wife and baby and go and stay for months in a sanatorium. And he also wasn't able to fight. So, the chip on my granddad's shoulder, honestly, it was a massive great, it was not a chip, it was a massive great boulder and nobody knew. And it came to light when he was in his late 50s, and he had to go and have a chest X-ray. And his son was a doctor and it was like, dad, you've had TB. Why did you, you know, why did you never tell us? And the secret was out. But that's it. The secrets that families hold and the rationale families have for the secret. You know, it makes sense. You know, we must keep this secret, but it means you're walking on this minefield. You can just say something unwittingly, and everything is blown up.

Yes, I think it is. That feeling of being absolutely. Having to think before you speak. You know, I think which you sort of think, surely with your parents, you can be ourselves. It's this great unconditional love supposedly from the films. You know, it's this place where you, it's the sanctuary of your house where you can be yourself. But of course, sometimes being yourself is the thing that then triggers everybody around you. So, then you learn very quickly, like in my case, definitely to not be myself. And I thought to be loved. I mean, to be fair to my parents now. Well, my, my mum particularly because she's gone it feels sort of I've had to I've had a few years now to think about. I think she, I know she had great love for us, but she didn't necessarily show it in a sense of it being unconditional. It sort of felt conditional. You love me, but only if I'm good at something. You love me only if I'm being perfect. That's how I sort of imbued all that stuff. So actually, then I felt in quite a lot of conflict with my mum and didn't really have that sense of sort of you get into the habit of thinking I'm not lovable, which is a very stressful way to go through life, because you're searching for that validation, that acceptance.

And I mean, to tell you the truth, when I look now, I just think, well, of course, you know, I do think, of course, in her, in her way, she'd be horrified to hear me say that. Someone once said to me, you don't think that your mum is sort of being hard on you because she's just trying to toughen you up for the world. You know, she's come from this other country. And I've never seen it in that way. I thought it was so fascinating, and it made me really question myself because they said, you know, a lot of immigrant mothers particularly want their daughters to be absolutely resilient and strong against what they see as racism coming or this kind of conflict coming towards them. If they can make their daughters perfect, no one can knock them.

Really fascinating. And I'm thinking about a conversation I had this week with a father about, exactly that, with his son and him having quite a tough time as a boy and the skills he acquired to cope with the world. Him now without thinking about it, passing those skills on. But the purpose, you know, as we dug into it, was he was looking to resilience build. And it's probably, it's probably one of these both and situations where, yes, resilience building is important, but also so is allowing our children to be who they are and not who we want them to be. So, it's the conversation is different, isn't it? The parental minefield is me as a child and what I what I experience. But then as a parent, you know, we pass it on even though we don't want to pass it on. And........

It's funny because, you know, I haven't had children and people will sometimes ask me about it. And it was really into my late 30s that I realised I didn't have to have them. I just assumed I had to have them. But I never wanted to, you know, I've never wanted to. And I think one of the reasons it's a slightly weird reason is about not wanting to pass things down. And actually, that's such a perfectionist way of like, I'm going to control this bit of my life in order to then move on. You know, it's like there are stages you have to solve before you can do something.

Yeah. So, was the outcome discovering that I don't want children and that that is okay?

Yeah. And it was brilliant. Oh, my God, it was amazing. We don't really have a word because we have spinster or what's the other word? Barren or things like that.

Yeah those kind of really negative words.

Really dodgy words. Very dodgy words about women. But when you see the numbers of women who don't have children, statistically it's quite high. And I have to say, I do feel extremely lucky. And I feel bad because I say that sometimes out loud without thinking. I go, oh yes. People say, do you have children? I say, oh yeah, no, thank God, I'm so lucky I don't. But you have to really catch myself because who I'm talking to. But yeah.

Well that's right, isn't it? Because there are the women like you who are child free and have made a conscious choice, and it is a liberation. And then there are women who've been, you know, through awful, awful medical procedures and all sorts of, you know, efforts and efforts and more effort and more effort and would identify as child less because they yearned, yearned to be a mum, you know. And then there's the women who don't want to be mums but get caught up in, as you say, that sort of tidal wave of conditioning that that is what you're meant to do. And they become mothers and they don't want to be mothers. And I was one of the yearnings. Oh, Aileen, I, you know, from a little little girl I wanted to be a mama. I just wanted to be a mama. And then, you know, for all sorts of reasons, in my younger years, it didn't look like it was going to be part of my path. And I spent quite a lot of time grieving that I wasn't going to be a mum. And then I did.

And I think that's the other thing about the parental minefield is it's kind of in our, in the UK anyway we have different legislation for 16 year olds and 18 year olds, and legally a child is considered an adult at 18. But I remember as a mum just kind of thinking, you know, this is ridiculous. You know, the he might be 18, but he is a million miles from being a fully formed adult. And we know the neuroscience is, you know, boys in particular. I mean, they're well into their late 20s before they have an adult brain. But it's but and I think the other way round, you know, when you're a 13 year old, you think you know everything. And I remember being 13 and God, my parents were so stupid and just so ignorant and they just didn't know anything. And then being the mother of a 13 year old and being on the receiving end of that, do you know, it's that confidence, that sort of misplaced confidence in ability to cope in the world that you have as a teenager and a young person and a young adult versus, you know, the challenges of being an adult and what it takes to be an adult.

I mean, it's funny, I was watching my sister with my nephew and my friends with their kids who I adore. You know, I do love all the kids in my life, but actually, when I've been watching them, I just think, God, it's like an unrequited love affair. As they're starting to grow older, these children just are growing away from them, you know, and are not phoning and not coming back. And I may be more compassionate towards my mum and dad actually, as they get older, got older, but as they've got older I've got had a much better relationship with them. And I think that's me changing and growing and becoming more aware and thinking some of this stuff through and pausing a little bit and just seeing them as these separate people and realising that they just adore me. Actually, you love them massively and they're not phoning back. Fascinating. I thought, wow, I felt a bit more compassionate towards my parents actually.

So, I think we've kind of moved into what to do about it in a way, haven't we? You know, how do you manage that when your adult children no longer make contact and don't want to, and you're yearning to hear from them. One of the sort of things that make it so tricky is within me there is an adult, but there is also a parent, and there is also a child. You know, in therapy speak. The model that really digs into this is one called TA, transactional analysis. But I don't think we need to read TA textbooks to be, you know, at a visceral level, to know what it feels like to be all of those things: a parent, an adult and a child. And in the parental minefield where it becomes problematic is, is we forget with adult children, we forget that actually, this is a group of adults in the room. And what happens is, you know, I easily fall back into being mama, even though my son is 25 and 7 foot, you know, I'm relating to him as though he's 7 and needs to put his shoes on. And it's kind of ridiculous. Ridiculous. And vice versa. My son is also a parent. You know, there can be 3 or 4 generations in a room, and all of us can be behaving bizarrely because we're forgetting, actually, there's only one child, there's one three year old in this room, and there are three adults, but the three adults are in their different ways, vying for attention, being needy, being, you know, acting out or acting up in whatever way.

Yeah, that's so interesting. Just to be aware of that, Clare, is pretty massive. Even just you saying that, I know we touched on this in Surviving Holidays, our episode, because we looked at that time when often you have got the different generations all together, but the idea of everyone trying again to pause and recognise and see, actually, what am I playing out here and what is my mum playing out here and what is my grandmother playing, you know, just to go, ah, and it's who's going to be the grown up in the room or who's just going to have a moment where they go, ah, I'm behaving like a child. I'm just going to take myself for a walk. I'm just going to add a bit of space from this.

I remember once being with Mum and dad and my sister and I were there. This is when they were older and mum was kind of getting things ready for lunch, you know, and we were like lolling about like we're literally like teenagers not doing anything. And my dad suddenly just said, can you two girls help your mum? And it was such a weird moment because he was quite cross. He's never crossed anything. And it was a strange moment to hear the tone in his voice. We both sort of woke up and he said, look, why are you letting mum do everything? Now, the reason we did that is because mum would always do everything and say, go and sit down. Stop bothering me. Go away, go away, go away. So, we'd got into that habit of our lives of not bothering her because she's going to do everything anyway. But actually, she was getting older and she was tired and my dad just said, look, your mum is tired. You've got two, two of you here. Somebody help! And from that day on, we always did. But it was. That was a really strange moment actually, when you realise, oh, my mum and dad are not always the ones to do everything.

So, you're speaking to the requirement of adapting. We all, as we go through life, need to adapt to the changing situation. And you're speaking there to age. You know mum was ageing. She wasn't as capable as she had been. You needed to adapt to that change. I mean they happen all the time. It's like we get into roles, the roles become calcified and we just act from that role. And. And we're not roles. We're human beings. I mean, I was listening to one of our previous episodes, Aileen, and you speak about how we're all unique and we're all, you know, these wonderful, awesome, extraordinary creatures, each and every one of us. But I think if we can, if we can allow ourselves to open to that, to open to our unique specialness. It can provide us with a gateway to our capacity to adapt and change and resist the roles that we've fallen into or that we've just played. Because, you know, at a moment in time back in history, it was required that I was the one who pushed the Hoover around. Yes, that that time has passed. It doesn't necessarily have my name on anymore. I don't need to be the one who hoovers now. I'm just giving that as an example.

But it's interesting.

Adapting and changing as all of us adapt and change and grow. Yeah.

I think definitely the role thing is fascinating because I see my female friends who are literally looking after children and looking after their aging parents and the children. So, we get those roles now are kind of absolutely clear suddenly with the one in the middle being the caretaker of everybody. And, you know, it's very hard to watch them because it's a real struggle and people are amazing at doing it. And but it is interesting the role thing, because you can also then be a particular kind of role, as you said, are you now the bossy person telling your mother, your mother to put on their shoes? Now hurry up, because we've got to get out now, you know, and you see people harassing their kind of older parents into doing this and that because of time. And, you know, it is like watching a mother with a small child and you're like, no, can we can you just slow down? You don't need to rush them. They can get on with it themselves, you know. But also how much do you intervene and say. Can I help you do that thing? That's such a basic thing that they helped you with.

In that question, Aileen, you are speaking into the one of the key ingredients to to navigating this minefield, which is communicating and asking rather than doing. And I think some of us, you know, particularly if we're a bit aggrieved by our own childhoods and have, a sense of injustice around how we were parented, we can then justify, you know, treating our parents and using quotes now, but treating our parents badly, you know, you were mean to me, so I'm allowed to be mean to you. And it just kind of doesn't serve anyone. You know, if we can sign up to the possibility that our parents did their absolute best in the way that they parented us, that we have a better chance of being able to be kind and gentle and loving towards them when they, I mean it is I want to say literally, it's not literally. But as the aging process happens, our parents can become our dependents. They need us to help them put on their shoes or make their supper or take them to hospital appointments. And can we do it in a nurturing, kind, loving way? And we might have that intention, but a bit like my story about "put your shoes on!". That's sort of getting possessed by this other force. We can find ourselves being mean. But again, it's kind of like, no, no, no no no. Hold on. Pull back.

You know, and that what you're describing there, those friends of yours who are caught between looking after their own children and looking after their diminishing parents, we call it the sandwich generation, and it's largely held by women. I mean, there are some men who step into that, but the majority of caregivers in that sandwich situation are women. And it's a very hidden, relentless, exhausting life stage. And if you're listening to us and you're one of those people, do you know, bless your heart. You know, very, very well done. And thank you for what you're doing for your families. And, I suppose that the invitation is just to try and be gentle with yourself. Try and, you know, get off your back. You're already doing a lot. Don't add to that burden by also beating yourself up because you're not doing it in your opinion, perfectly.

We need to forgive our parents, potentially, but possibly we need to grieve the fact that they weren't the parents we wanted them to be. You know, they we can't get them to change. When we think about romantic relationships, and we say we can't change anyone. We can't change anyone. You know, I'd gone through process of going, okay, I can't change anyone. I must change myself if I try and change myself. But I'm trying to change myself in relation to changing them. You know, it's literally. But so. And then realise one day you just look at them and go, they are themselves. They are these people. They really have just done their best. And you and, you know, to open the heart to sort of loving my parents again is very, you know, to really finding that true love, to really have the relationship with this person because basically it's role and role talking to each other. Then rather than actually, I'm going to see you as you and have a relationship with you, hilariously been doing something in Covid where every day I would do exercises with my mum and dad, and it was kind of glorious because I didn't call them every day at all, you know? And suddenly that year I called them every day and we did half an hour of exercise, and then we'd have a laugh and, you know, and they'd do their usual and slightly annoying things. But somehow it was in this frame.

Well, it's interesting what you're pointing to. There is what I'm calling what I call shared activities. You found an activity that you could do together, which I think in some ways is a lot easier than phoning your parents every day. Because whilst communication is key, It can be very, very hard work. You mentioned forgiveness. I know I've, I've kind of jumped into forgiveness because I'm yearning to have a better relationship and it's been kind of paper thin. It's like I haven't because I haven't bottomed out the, the issues that I have, the forgiveness hasn't endured because it hasn't been a deep forgiveness. Um, but you're right. We do need to forgive our parents their foibles and their limits and their mistakes and the things we wish they'd done differently. We absolutely do need to do that. But I guess I want to caution against rushing into it. Sometimes there's more work to be done, independent of our parents, ourselves, to really let ourselves in on what the cost was to us, of their limits, of their quote unquote failings. That's kind of private work and to do with the past.

But in terms of the present, and I guess what you're pointing to there, the pandemic really did give an opportunity for many of us to be present. We've no idea where this pandemic is going to take us, and we know that everything we used to do is no longer available to us. So, we only have now. And you, you accidentally fell upon a shared activity with your parents that delivered so much reward. And the thing is, the beauty of finding things you can do together. I mean, that's a very extreme example. Daily, half an hour. I mean, it could be once a month, it could be once a quarter, but some kind of activity that both of you or all of you, if you're a kind of a group of folk, all of you will get pleasure from independently, but you are participating in it at the same time. And that can be such a bridge builder when there have been gulfs or ruptures in the relationship.

It was the regularity, actually, Clare, that was fascinating. So, as you say, it didn't have to be every day. It could be once a week, once a month. Maybe it's a family quiz. There was something about lockdown that had regular things that people booked in, where you knew that you were all coming together to do something. It really was an eye opener that. And, you know, the other thing is you can then piggyback things on the back of this meeting. The one thing we did, which was literally life changing is my mum had one day said, you know, I realised when, you know, granny, when my mum died, I'd forgotten. I don't think I ever said I love you to her. And I was like, well mum, I can say I love you to you right now. And she was such a shock. And she said, I don't think we say I love you. I said, well, should we just start saying it? Because we don't, we absolutely don't as a family at all. And so we made a pact then to say, I said, look, every day when we say in the morning, we see each other and we say goodbye or hello. We can just say, I love you when we say goodbye. And she said, okay, okay. Yeah, let's try that, let's try that. So, it was quite, you know, it was like an experiment. So we began doing that. And so I mean, it makes me almost cry now. But, you know, the last thing I had said to her was, I love you.

Ah.

You know, because, I mean, I was because I was because I was speaking to her at 10:00 that evening. I'd sent her a picture. I'd had my nails done, and I was showing. She always desperate for me to have my nails done. And I said, look, I've done my nails. And she said, oh, that looks lovely. And then I just texted, you know, I love you. And then two hours later, she'd left the face of the earth. So, you know, and the thing about that is what I was left with the one regret. And it's an interesting one, is I had this whole day a few months later when I was walking around a park, just bawling, going, I haven't thanked her. I was so upset that I hadn't said thank you. So, I just walked around the park going, thank you, thank you because I thank you for sewing me clothes. Thank you for all the lessons she's taught me. Thank you for all the work. She you know, it was really interesting that this litany list of thank yous. And I thought if I could say anything to people, it would be when I see my friends and they have people who are ill and they're going to hospital. I say, you must just say thank you. sorry, and I love you. Those three phrases can really, really help with relationships with parents at different times. And thank you is one I do think is something to say to parents as they get older, when you start realising what they've done. When you're a parent yourself and you acknowledge it and you start, it really doesn't hurt to say thank you to our parents, I think.

And for those of you who are listening going, I am so not ready to say thank you. Yes, I am still caught in the tumult of the rage and the hurt and the pain. You know your story, Aileen, I think, can sort of stand there as a potential future destination. And for now, it's being with those that where you are with it. I think I think an absolutely key strategy in navigating this is acceptance. And if right now my heart is closed to you, I'm. I just need to have a lot of space from you. Do you know that is fine. You know, recognising we require boundaries in these relationships and drawing up our boundaries. You know, my boundaries are mine. They're not anybody else's. I work out what I need for this point of where I am. And I think the thing is to just to remember that the way I am now is not where I'm going to be tomorrow or next week or next year. And so boundaries can be redrawn and can be different. But knowing what my boundaries are that allow me to be in a healthy, loving engagement with this minefield will really serve me. And and accepting where I am in this minefield will also really serve me. And you might have heard that expression. Aileen. Let them be them. Have you come across that? There can be such peace on the back of that when we allow, they are who they are. And my job is to let them be them. Let them be them. And they do. And they think, and they believe what they do, think and believe. But it doesn't mean I have to be affected by it. I can let them be them while I do me and my work is is to do me. And if the minefield has sort of knocked me off me, doing me, then there's some self-care. If I'm not doing me, then I need to put in some self-care to remind me who me is.

And the gratitude. I mean, the very tiny bit of gratitude, even if you're really out with your parents, can be recognising they gave me life. At the very least, this opportunity to live on this planet and do what I do. I wouldn't have had that without my parents. So sometimes that's the best we've got. And even that, if you're in the grips of a depressive episode where you're feeling just completely wretched. You know even that won't be consoling. You'll be listening, going. Oh, Clare, you know that's one of the many litany of curses I've got. They gave me this bloody awful life. So, you know. And if that's where you are, you know, the work is around accepting. Right now, I'm in a melancholic, if not extremely depressed hole. And it will pass. Yeah, it will pass. Everything changes. Everything moves. If we can accept this is where I am. Right here, right now.

You can have separate time with each one is very valuable. You know, you can go on a date with your mum, a date with your dad. You can go to the shops with your, you know, remember going shopping with mum. She was absolutely beyond delighted I couldn't. It was the most happiest day of her life. I think taking me to a shop and getting makeup put on and I thought, wow, I really should do this more often because she just loved it. And then, you know, going somewhere just with my dad, I remember just taking my dad came to see a play that I was doing. And, you know, we went backstage and he had a whole relationship with the people in the cast. And I thought, oh, this is interesting because often we do things just together. You know, do family things. And again, these roles are slightly different when these people are we tell younger families to do that, don't we? I think we always say, you know, you can always have separate time with each of your children.

Really important. Really, really important.

Yeah, yeah.

So yes, to have those the one on one relationship, the one on two, one on three, one on four, they're all different relationships. And the content that comes up for conversation varies in different makeups of combinations.

I think the other piece in terms of what do we do about the parental minefield Aileen, and I think I look back to this every time we chat. But is support. There's lots of ways we can support ourselves with this minefield. And I wonder if it's just useful just to just remember the different forms of support that there are to navigate this. You know, there's our partners, there's our friends, there's, you know, go to any self-help section in the library or a bookshop, and there's just loads and loads of books. I don't know if any of them are actually called the parental minefield. Maybe that's one for us to write Aileen. But yes, it's really helpful to remember that every single human being on the planet is trying to navigate this minefield. And you are not alone. I think we can feel so hopeless when it's tricky and that there's, you know, no one has suffered like me or no one knows the suffering I'm suffering here. And it isn't true. All of us have needed to do this pondering. Or not do this pondering. We might not do the pondering, but we certainly will walk into the minefield and have it blow up because that's what happens.

And to be really self-compassionate. My God, just to be kind to ourselves. Because really, we need somebody to mother and father us in that moment. You know, that moment of feeling estranged from parents or they don't understand? Or why can't they help me more? You know, a friend of mine had had children and she was like, why can't they just help me more? You know and I was like, you know what? Maybe they just can't. That was a big eye opening moment where we just went. Maybe they're literally doing their absolute best. Because we're not small children going, help me, but we are going, help me. You know, it's every age we do that. But yeah, to recognise and feel not so abandoned and alone because we have got friends, we have got partners, we have got, you know, different resources now. That is the thing that has changed from when we were young and we didn't feel like we were being helped by them or supported. We have got many more resources now to recognise that. It's like we say in relationships, you know, you should have it's not the be all and end all that one romantic relationship for solving everything. Same is true of our parents. They don't have to solve everything.

So, Aileen, one more time, we're coming to the end of one of our chats. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Yeah, no, quite a big one today.

I suspect we'll revisit it somewhere down the line.

Definitely.

But, yeah. Thank you for listening. It's really so precious to us that you choose to download these and listen to us chat. And there's more resources if you're interested on the sexandrelationshipspodcast.com. And, yeah, we'll be back somewhere down the line with more. Thank you. Aileen, thank you for listening.

Thank you, Clare. Bye, everyone.