Keith Gaddie returns to give us the history of White House architecture, how it connects to grievance politics, and how we can help ensure your fellow Americans have access to food when Congress fails.

Hello and welcome to Let's Pod this.

2

My name is Andy Moore.

3

Friends, welcome back and happy Halloween.

4

Uh, joining me again this week is

our good friend and colleague, Dr.

5

Keith Gaddie.

6

Welcome back to the Democracy Den.

7

Good to be back down here.

8

Andy.

9

Uh, it's been a few weeks since you

were on, and in our last episode we

10

were talking about grievance politics.

11

Yes.

12

And the role of grievance in

American politics more broadly.

13

Uh, you know, one of the things that I

think we can start talking about as a,

14

as a reentry point here is particularly

salient for you as a guest because you

15

have a, a expertise in architecture.

16

And that's the new White House

ballroom that's going up?

17

Yes.

18

The construction there that has,

at least from what I have read, not

19

gone according to plan as the plan

was revealed to the American public.

20

Uh, but there's a lot more to it and I

think it's probably helpful for listeners

21

to get a little bit of bearings on some

information about the White House and

22

like how it got to be where it is today.

23

So let's talk about the building

itself and then we'll talk about

24

the construction project and then.

25

Where grievance enters into all of that.

26

Right.

27

So, uh, so, you know, the White

House was uh, uh, designed in

28

1790s and construction was begun.

29

And first occupant of the White

House was, uh, uh, John Quincy Adams.

30

I mean John Adams, the father

who took occupancy up just before

31

turning over power to Thomas

32

And, uh, the White House

was designed, it's, uh.

33

It is a, uh, federalist and neoclassical

design building, which bears a remarkable

34

similarity to the Parliament building

of Ireland in Dublin, the old Irish pa.

35

They're almost identical.

36

Um, but uh, the building was meant

to be a palace of sufficient.

37

Splendor and awe that a visitor coming

from Europe will be impressed by it.

38

Um, and it is an impressive building.

39

It is large.

40

You could find plantation houses in select

parts of the south that were much larger,

41

uh, that were built in the early part of

the 19th century, but it was one of the

42

most magnificent buildings built in North

43

And it was a lot smaller

originally than it is today.

44

Right?

45

Yeah.

46

People have been there in the

last, you know, 10 or 20 years.

47

It's.

48

Has become almost a little bit of a

sprawling on campus is a little bit

49

overstatement, but there's more to it than

just what we think of as the White House.

50

Yeah.

51

Well the White House, you know, you

think about it, you've got the core

52

building, the original building, which

is the center of the, uh, the center

53

of the, the White House Complex.

54

And there's a north and a south

portico that were added to it during

55

the 19th century, one of which is

rounded front neoclassical, design

56

portico, and the other of which is

more of a traditional temple pediment.

57

Okay.

58

Temple Impediment with the columns on it.

59

Uh, in addition to that, at the

beginning of the 20th century, uh,

60

expansions were added on the west

side, the West Wing, which we all know

61

from television and the East Wing.

62

Soon after, uh, the McKim firm out of, uh,

Philadelphia did the design on those parts

63

of the White House, and they stayed inside

this traditional Neoclassical style.

64

Um, those wings are lower.

65

Then the main house, they're

connected at some distance from it.

66

Okay.

67

So you, you've got, you know,

a small covered walkway.

68

You can go down from e from the main house

to get to either one of the wings and to a

69

certain extent from the front of the White

House, or largely obscured by landscaping.

70

Okay.

71

Um, beneath the East Wing, there

is a command bunker that was put

72

into place, um, many decades ago

as an emergency management center.

73

This is not the situation room

that we hear about in fiction.

74

This is a different facility.

75

Um, and the East Wing has

traditionally been sort of the domain

76

largely of, um, the first lady.

77

Has always been the perception of it.

78

While the West Wing is the admin, the

administrative center for the president.

79

Right.

80

The, the Executive Hub, the Oval

Office was installed in the West

81

Wing by William Howard Taft.

82

Okay.

83

A lot of people, they look at the White

House, they see that rounded backside, and

84

there are oval rooms in the main building.

85

That's not the Oval Office, but

inspiration for the Oval Office

86

comes from those oval rooms.

87

And then that Oval Office office

was later updated by Franklin

88

Donna Roosevelt in a renovation and

expansion of the West Wing in the 19th.

89

Thirties.

90

This is to say that the White House

has gone through a lot of iterations.

91

And expansions, but they tend to

be, um, these expansions tend to

92

not threaten the primacy of the

residents in the middle, okay?

93

They don't distract from where

the center of the building is.

94

They don't draw the eye away from it.

95

Um, in 1948, the Trumans had the

White House completely renovated

96

and actually moved out of the

building for a couple of years.

97

'cause it had fallen into such disrepair.

98

There was actually structural damage

going back to the burning of the

99

building during the war of 1812

that had never been fully addressed.

100

So we've gone through some

patterns and some iterations.

101

Richard Nixon, uh, uh, there was

a swim indoor swimming pool that

102

he had covered up to make a press

room, uh, for the press to be able

103

to meet with the, uh, the president.

104

So the White House briefing room actually

does have a swimming pool underneath it.

105

Oh, that's funny.

106

It's kind of fun.

107

Yeah.

108

Um, there's a bowling

alley added at some point.

109

There was a bowling alley in the basement

and, uh, since it's been moved, it's

110

over in the Eisenhower building now.

111

Mm.

112

Mm-hmm.

113

Which seems fitting.

114

You know, it's, and if you've ever

never seen the Eisenhower building,

115

the old executive office building

is a second empire style monster.

116

Mm-hmm.

117

That when it was finished was the

largest office building in the world.

118

Really?

119

Yeah.

120

That's interesting.

121

Yeah.

122

When you get inside, I've been in

that building twice, I think, and

123

both times, I, I was struck by how

easy it would be to get lost in it,

124

because everything looks the same.

125

Oh, it's insane.

126

It's huge.

127

Uh, of course it was, uh,

supplanted in that, um, with that

128

title ultimately by the Pentagon.

129

Oh, okay.

130

Yeah, sure.

131

So, um, I've not been inside that

building, but uh, I have, yeah, it's,

132

you could spend days trying to get around

it as well, but fortunately, eventually

133

you'll come back to where you started.

134

Right, right.

135

After you make four turns, then

you're back to where you started.

136

Exactly.

137

Yeah.

138

And if, uh, listeners have ever

gone to do a tour of the White

139

House, like a traditional tumor

that you would request through your.

140

Member of Congress, you usually, at

least in my experience, you enter on

141

the east side through the East Gate and

they take you through all the security.

142

Yep.

143

And then you are really doing

a tour of that middle portion.

144

Right.

145

And you see yeah, the, the, the re the

where the residence is and you're touring

146

the public bill, uh, the public areas.

147

Yeah.

148

So, you know, the ballroom

and things like that.

149

You'll see the, uh, the display of

China, the various first ladies.

150

And you know, the truth is, I

was talking with a friend about

151

this this morning at the gym.

152

Both the Capitol Tour and the White

House tour were kind of disappointing.

153

Mm-hmm.

154

For anybody that's

really a politics person.

155

Right.

156

I don't wanna see the damn China.

157

Yeah.

158

I wanna see the politics.

159

Right.

160

I wanna see where the history was made.

161

Yeah.

162

And you don't get that

on either tour anymore.

163

You gotta know somebody.

164

Mm-hmm.

165

Mm-hmm.

166

Or be there on business.

167

Yeah.

168

Yeah, exactly.

169

And it's very difficult.

170

I mean, the donor White House tour.

171

Which I've never been on is really cool.

172

Okay.

173

Because that one you actually can,

usually, you could get to the West Wing

174

on that kind of thing, but that's a very

special tour for very special people.

175

Yeah.

176

And there is a check you can write

to go on that tour, but probably

177

better off just watch the West

Wing on TV and pretend Right.

178

Most if it can't afford that check,

it'll be more cost effective that way.

179

Yeah.

180

So under the current administration,

uh, president Trump has done,

181

I think, two major renovations

that have been in the news.

182

One is.

183

The rose garden and mm-hmm.

184

Converting into more of

a patio environment Yes.

185

Rather than just like a grassy lawn.

186

Yes.

187

And then the second is the ballroom

that's currently under construction.

188

Mm-hmm.

189

Um, what do you know

about the rose garden?

190

And then let's get into, okay.

191

Well, and we also have to

remember the, also been some, um,

192

embellishments inside the West Wing.

193

For example, the

introduction of the gilding.

194

Uh, on the walls and gilded

features, which ends up making

195

the Oval Office in particular, but

the West Wing look more Baroque.

196

Mm-hmm.

197

And Baroque and Neoclassical don't

really go together that well necessarily.

198

It can work, but not like this.

199

I'm critical of this.

200

Not that I don't like Baroque

architecture, it just doesn't.

201

Look.

202

Right.

203

Okay.

204

There's something wrong about it.

205

Is the, can I ask you, and that's being

extended into the ballroom incidentally.

206

Oh, right, right.

207

Yeah.

208

So on the, on a note about design Yeah.

209

And, and style here.

210

You mentioned that the White House itself

is the Neoclassical Federalist style Yes.

211

Of architecture.

212

And you mentioned the one in

Ireland that's very similar.

213

Yeah.

214

Um, I guess I, it would be

technically Georgian, but Georgian

215

and Federalist are highly similar.

216

Okay.

217

So yeah.

218

Is the.

219

I guess I probably always thought, because

so much of Washington DC is in that same

220

Federalist style and many other Yeah.

221

Government buildings around the

country are that, that was kind of

222

a uniquely American style, but I

honestly don't know the history.

223

Oh, no, no.

224

It, this is a fun thing.

225

Um, I teach a class on this.

226

I, I taught it at OU in the architecture

college, and I teach it down at

227

TCU, called Architecture, democracy.

228

And what's really fun is

that Neoclassical, which is.

229

The temple elements, the pediments,

the columns, the use of symmetry, uh,

230

use of stone, um, uh, uh, Roman, Roman

arches, for example, or Greek, uh, flat.

231

Lets, um, that style was used by

the British during the Empire.

232

Uh, it was used in

Germany during the Empire.

233

You find it in a variety of

countries around the world that.

234

Don't necessarily have Democratic regimes.

235

Mm-hmm.

236

But the rise of Neoclassical

in the US is very, very much.

237

Associated with the rise of the Republican

238

Jefferson, when he designed the Virginia

Capital Building, took inspiration from a

239

Roman temple in South France and neem, and

I mean it's, it's almost a dead wringer.

240

Mm-hmm.

241

This was the first inflection, and then by

242

form for designing state capitals as well.

243

In the North Carolina Capital

Building is the first capital

244

building, including the US Capitol.

245

To be fully neoclassical capital form.

246

Okay.

247

So it in a way predates the

renovation of the US Capitol

248

that gave it its current dome.

249

Gotcha.

250

Yeah.

251

So this, um, what about

the Oklahoma State Capitol?

252

Oklahoma State Capital is absolutely

a classic capital design with

253

neoclassical, neoclassical and

some bows, arts elements to it.

254

Um, you know, the, um.

255

Uh, um, uh, Solomon Layton who designed

the capital there, um, designed several

256

of the historic courthouses in the state

of Oklahoma as well and had some other

257

notable public works around the us.

258

Uh, but that capital building is

really, now that it has a dome on it,

259

which it's only had for about 20 years.

260

Yeah.

261

Okay.

262

Um, it is a classic.

263

US capital type.

264

Yeah.

265

Um, but yeah, that's, and it's funny

though, that style that we think of

266

as being only American only became

267

Huh?

268

Yeah.

269

What happened is if you were

to go to the mall right now,

270

you, you go to the mall now.

271

The National Mall.

272

The National Mall, right?

273

Yeah.

274

Now we're gonna go, go again,

pause my, and do some shopping.

275

Uh, no.

276

You go to the Capital Mall.

277

You have the Capital

Building at one end, right?

278

At the East end.

279

Mm-hmm.

280

At the West end, you've got the

Lincoln, uh, Lincoln Memorial,

281

which serves as the end piece.

282

Then in the middle you've got, uh,

the Washington Monument, and then

283

you have buildings up and down both

sides, which with the exception of the

284

Smithsonian's Old Castle, which is Gothic.

285

Yeah.

286

And the Smithsonians Aaron Space Museum,

which is, uh, um, which is uh, uh, kind of

287

a mix up between international and brutal.

288

Okay.

289

It's very modern, very modern.

290

Most of the stuff up and down is either

Neoclassical or what's called Shrimp

291

Classicism, which is a early 20th century

version of classicism that it's associated

292

with the New Deal in particular.

293

So very flat.

294

A lot of the details have been rubbed out.

295

Uh, you use pediments instead of

columns, but it still has that, that

296

temple feel to it, that DC feel, to it.

297

That all happened because, um,

298

Columbian exhibition in Chicago.

299

And they built a thing.

300

Uh, they had a, a big architectural

exhibition there and buildings

301

were built for that exhibition

and it was called The White City.

302

And the predominant style that was used

there was Bo Arts, which is an evolution

303

from, um, from Neoclassical that rose

304

And everybody was so impressed

with these temples that it

305

became the new avant-garde style.

306

Mm-hmm.

307

For conservative architects.

308

'cause American architecture was very

conservative at this point in time.

309

You had guys like Louis Sullivan

and Frank Lloyd Wright who were

310

real rebels, who were coming outta

the Prairie School in Chicago.

311

Right.

312

They were pushing back against all this

and actually his building, uh, Louis

313

Sullivan, who's the father of the Prairie

School, his building at the Chicago

314

exhibition was the best building there,

but it ruined his career 'cause ran so

315

counter to the Boza Arts and put him into

conflict with the architectural community.

316

Right.

317

Well, the architectural community

came to DC and there was a desire

318

to fix up the mall in particular

because the mall back then had a

319

railroad station in the middle of it.

320

Okay?

321

Mm-hmm.

322

It was before the

construction union station.

323

Mm-hmm.

324

It had a garbage dump and it had a bunch

of small versions of buildings that looked

325

like the old executive office building.

326

Mm-hmm.

327

Second Empire.

328

Well, actually fitting, we're

recording this on Halloween.

329

Okay.

330

Second Empire is haunted

house architecture.

331

Okay.

332

If you ever look at the beginning of a

Scooby-Doo cartoon Uhhuh, or you look

333

at Disney's Haunted Mansion, or the

Munsters, that's all Second Empire.

334

Okay?

335

Okay.

336

And it was a bunch of buildings

that looked like that, and they

337

wanted to, there was a, a movement

that emerged outta Chicago called

338

the City Beautiful Movement.

339

And so the McMillan plan to redevelop DC.

340

Embraced second, uh, embraced this

neoclassical and Bozart's approach.

341

And it's also what led to the

creation of Emerald Necklace.

342

Um, uh, the Emerald Necklace, uh,

parkways that go around cities where

343

I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky had

one that was designed by the same guy

344

that did Central Park, for example.

345

And so everything in DC

starts looking like a temple.

346

Oh, interest and forgive

they're hearing at the lecture.

347

But you know, that's the

story of how we got there.

348

And, you know, when Trump became

president, uh, around the third, uh,

349

towards the end of his first term,

he had argued that he wanted to make

350

public buildings beautiful again.

351

And he issued an executive order, which

is now enforced, having been reissued

352

that neoclassical shall be referenced.

353

In the construction of public,

federal, public buildings.

354

It was not mandated, but it would be

referenced, and this is a change from

355

60 years of public policy regarding

public architecture, which embraced the

356

diversity of different styles starting

357

So, you know, the architectural

community largely reacted badly to this.

358

They thought it was being a constraint

on their ability to express.

359

Mm-hmm.

360

The.

361

Public that doesn't like Donald Trump

freaked out because it's something

362

Donald Trump did, and we have to

remember, anything Donald Trump

363

proposes to do, whether it's a bad

idea or not, will be greeted as a

364

bad idea by his opponents, right?

365

He set himself up well in that way, right?

366

People don't want to agree,

even if they actually do.

367

Well, you, you and I were talking

about this before we got on air, right?

368

That remember what Lyndon Johnson

said that if he were to go down to

369

the Potomac and walk on the water,

people would say, look, I told you

370

the son of a bitch couldn't swim.

371

Right?

372

Right.

373

This is, this is the Donald

Trump problem right now.

374

The thing is, the American public for

over a hundred years embraces Nia Classic.

375

Whenever you have a competition to

build a building, a state capital,

376

neoclassical tends to be preferred.

377

Uh, and architects throughout the US knew

this at the end of the 19th century, if

378

they wanted to win contracts, the general

public out there building courthouses

379

and state capitals and schools campuses,

they liked Neoclassical, and we still do.

380

It's safe.

381

And it has a particular affect in meaning

that people instinctively associate

382

with government in this country.

383

Mm-hmm.

384

So to bring that up to this

ballroom is the ballroom in

385

this style that he has mm-hmm.

386

Said is preferred.

387

It is.

388

It is.

389

And it's.

390

I was looking over the

renderings this morning.

391

It even has, on the backside of it,

it has a temple motif entry that

392

looks just like the, uh, looks just

like the portico to the White House.

393

Mm-hmm.

394

So it has a white house like

entrance on it and, um, the

395

interior will be more baroque.

396

It, it is supposed to be gilded.

397

Evidently, Mar-a-Lago is our

new standard for everything.

398

Mm-hmm.

399

But that baroque piece is like.

400

You, there's one as architecture,

and then the other one is

401

almost the style of the design.

402

That's It's all changeable for sure.

403

But yeah, exactly.

404

And just to clarify, for anybody

that's just tuning in, and for my

405

architecture architect friends, forgive

me if I don't get those precisely

406

right, but I think I've got it.

407

So the design is the physical structure.

408

That is the layout, that is the flow,

that is the movement, that's the

409

elevation, that's the massing style,

is the artistic engagement of that.

410

Which can include massing.

411

You know how hefty a building feels?

412

Mm-hmm.

413

It can include height, but also

goes to, uh, it also goes to the

414

artistic elements of the building.

415

And so artistically, this building

from the outside will be in the

416

tradition of the White House.

417

So it's not gonna necessarily

look out of place from the street.

418

Not in terms of its style.

419

No.

420

But it's big.

421

Yeah.

422

It's 90, it is 90,000 square feet.

423

Yeah.

424

So it's bigger than the White House.

425

And even though it's set a bit far away,

it is gonna challenge the White House.

426

It, it's gonna draw the, the

eye and the center of gravity

427

away from the main building.

428

It's gonna look, it looks lopsided.

429

Okay.

430

And this is actually an fence

to neoclassical architecture,

431

which prizes, symmetry.

432

Mm mm-hmm.

433

Symmetry and balance are very

important in neoclassical design.

434

They're very important in any.

435

Italian design.

436

Uh, if you go and you look at the work

of Palladio, Palladian, architecture,

437

prizes, balance and Symmetry mm-hmm.

438

And this, what's happened is the White

House campus is now out of balance.

439

Mm-hmm.

440

Every previous construction

put it in balance.

441

There's a way to do this thing

and bring everything into balance,

442

but it ain't gonna happen.

443

No.

444

I would almost imagine it kind

of sets the stage for a similar.

445

Expansion on the west side.

446

Mm-hmm.

447

That could bring it back into balance.

448

But then you've got three really

big kind of components that are

449

loosely connected in the middle.

450

Yeah.

451

And what's happened is you're

further dwarfing the, the

452

executive mansion itself.

453

Right, right.

454

Okay.

455

So that's part of the challenge

there is, the thing is big, it

456

throws things out of balance.

457

Uh, the interior's gonna

be a good bit more baroque.

458

And you know, the nice thing is anything

that's done by man can be undone by man.

459

Right.

460

Um, so.

461

Some future administration if

they're really that upset about this.

462

If somebody is as petty as Donald

Trump is about things, and this is

463

actually relevant to what's going on

with the White House, it'll get undone.

464

Yeah.

465

It may end up being a beautiful, it may

end up being a really beautiful piece.

466

Yeah.

467

Well, and I, I've, you know, tried to

read a variety of news sources on this,

468

and it, it seems like the consensus is

there really was a need for a larger.

469

Gathering space.

470

Mm-hmm.

471

But people were like, eh, we needed it.

472

We just don't like the

way this is happening.

473

Or Yeah.

474

The where it is.

475

Well, you know, it's, there's a, yeah.

476

And part of this is an effort

by the current executive to

477

put his IMP Prada on things.

478

Right.

479

And you know, Donald Trump, every

president gets concerned with

480

legacy, but Donald Trump has a

more visible need for legacy.

481

And a personal imprint on things

than most previous presidents.

482

Right.

483

And because he was a land developer,

real estate developer, this is the place

484

where he sees his expertise and he Right.

485

And actually it's funny, he, he, he has a

track record of doing a couple of things.

486

Well, they, it was, uh, it was uh,

uh, the Trump organization that

487

turned the old post office Washington,

DC into, into a luxury hotel.

488

And they did a very nice job.

489

Mm-hmm.

490

They did a very nice job, uh, and were.

491

They were true to the

structure in doing so.

492

Um, so it's not surprising that this

is where he wanna leave his imprint.

493

Mm-hmm.

494

Because that's what he comes to the White

House as is the man who builds spaces.

495

Right?

496

Right.

497

Yeah.

498

So I think the thing that I have

been struggling with, because I

499

recognize that like, um, I don't.

500

I like the way that the design looks.

501

'cause it's off balance and

just, yeah, like visual things.

502

But in the grand scheme of how

does this affect the country?

503

Yeah.

504

Building a ballroom I recognize

as like small potatoes, right?

505

Yeah.

506

It doesn't really, it's a lot of money and

it's a bunch of donors and I don't like

507

some of the glad handing that happens.

508

But that's politics too.

509

Yes.

510

And I find myself getting mad at

the ballroom because it feels like

511

a righteous indignation, not a

partisan statement, but like just.

512

Yeah, I just don't like it.

513

Whether it's him or

otherwise, I think it's gaudy.

514

It's just not my style.

515

But I've been, and I, you know, his

friends text me similar sentiments.

516

I'm like, Hey, I'm with you.

517

But I also think this isn't the thing

that should be the object of our ire

518

all the time, because there are, well,

I mean, as we sit here today, right?

519

Today is the last day before

the um, uh, we're in the middle

520

of a government shutdown.

521

Snap benefits end essentially

at midnight to night.

522

Mm-hmm.

523

Many, many, many people

in our country Yeah.

524

Gonna wake up tomorrow without food.

525

Yeah.

526

And so that seems like something we

should be legitimately upset about.

527

Yeah.

528

Exactly.

529

And we should probably come back to Yeah.

530

Snap in a month.

531

We, we, we need to

spend some time on Snap.

532

Right.

533

For a lot of reasons.

534

And, and before we forget, if you're

a federal employee and you see this

535

before November 4th, go to Iguana Grill,

they're gonna be giving you free tacos.

536

Seriously.

537

Look it up.

538

It's absolutely worth it.

539

Um, good lunch today also, but, um.

540

No, the, uh,

541

you know, it's, you always wonder.

542

With anything with this

administration, what are you missing

543

while the hyperbole is going on?

544

Mm-hmm.

545

Right.

546

And what are you being distracted from?

547

But this notion, this notion of

grievance, it actually shows up in

548

the White House design redesign in

this current one under Trump, or,

549

yeah, the one current one under Trump.

550

It's probably the only instance where

this happens because if you were to go

551

to the web and you check out the, um,

and we'll, we'll put a link in for those.

552

If you check out.

553

The, um, the website that explains the new

ballroom, the reconstruction of the East

554

Wing on the White House website, on the

White House, on the White House website.

555

You have to wonder if anybody is still

making is still, if, if the Hatch

556

Act still exists, I'd be shocked.

557

Okay.

558

But when you look at those things

you dig in, they present a timeline

559

of the White House, and it notes a

lot of the, a lot of the events that.

560

I've described, right, the burning

of the White House, the expansion,

561

the renovation, this and that.

562

But it also peppers in some other

notable things in the design of

563

the White House and its history.

564

Uh, bill Clinton's trust

with Monica Lewinsky and the

565

Hova office gets a shout out.

566

National Trans Day with

Joe Biden gets a shout out.

567

They're claiming they found cocaine from

Hunter Biden and a laptop, evidently.

568

Evidently Hunter Biden laptops.

569

You know, it's sort of like

finding Pokemon, right?

570

You go around, you'll find them here

or there if you keep digging right?

571

And all this other stuff that's

designed to do one thing.

572

And there's also something for

Barack Obama and there things that

573

are meant to make Donald Trump's

direct political opponents look bad.

574

Yeah.

575

Right.

576

Yeah.

577

It's partial, it's bad history.

578

It's a distraction from the thing, right?

579

It's another example of this,

of this politics or grievance

580

and the use of grievance.

581

And the question for the left is

when, when liberals come back and

582

control politics someday, do they

just let Trump go into all this

583

stuff going quietly, set things back?

584

Or do we have grievance against him?

585

Yeah.

586

Or we're gonna say stay

stuck down in this space.

587

Yeah.

588

Yeah.

589

I, uh, so I just googled the.

590

White House building.

591

Uh, like about the White House?

592

Yeah.

593

On the website.

594

And it has like inspiration.

595

This is about the East Wing expansion

stages, so about the construction itself.

596

Mm-hmm.

597

And then, as you were saying, has a

598

Design plans rebuilding after 1812

South Portico, north Portico, west Wing,

599

oval Office, rose Garden, east Wing,

total reconstruction briefing room.

600

And then, yeah.

601

Bill Clinton, Monica Lewinski,

bill Clinton scandal, Muslim

602

Brotherhood, visit a tennis pavilion.

603

Cocaine discovered Trans

Day of Visibility, north and

604

South Flagpoles this year.

605

Yeah.

606

Rose guard.

607

So it, it highlights several things

that happened, obviously under

608

democratic presidencies mm-hmm.

609

That have arguably no relation

to the architecture of the

610

construction of the building.

611

These are things that.

612

There's no mention of a single Easter

egg role or like, or, you know, like

613

all the, uh, the other, many, many,

many, many state dinners or other

614

events that are helping Bacon, Sadat

and Carter doing the Camp David

615

Accord signing in the Rose Garden.

616

Yeah.

617

Which was probably the most monumental

event that happened in that space.

618

Mm-hmm.

619

At the end of the day.

620

Mm-hmm.

621

Yeah.

622

Lost, lost to history.

623

Right, right.

624

Yeah.

625

Yeah.

626

But we're lucky they didn't put an eye up.

627

Also, I guess.

628

It just feels very petty.

629

Yeah, it is.

630

And in a, in a conversation about

grievance, it demonstrates somebody's

631

grievance that's clearly very partisan.

632

Mm-hmm.

633

Um, taking aim at certain presidents

and certain issues they think

634

will elicit a grievance, like a

supportive grievance from their Yeah.

635

From their constituents.

636

Well, and this would probably be critical

of the left just for a minute, Andy.

637

They've allowed themselves to

be pulled down to the level of

638

presentation made by this president.

639

What do you mean by that?

640

That the nature of the criticism.

641

Well look in social media, the

nature of the criticisms and the

642

treatment and characterization of

this executive, it's just as petty.

643

We've all gotten pulled down there.

644

Remember, remember the old

saying about why you never wanna

645

wrestle in the mud with a pig?

646

'cause all you do is get mud on yourself

and you find out the pig enjoys it.

647

Right?

648

Yeah.

649

This, this is where we are.

650

Yeah.

651

And somehow we gotta figure out how

to make dignity win, whether it's from

652

the right, whether it's conservative,

dignity, or liberal dignity.

653

You gotta get the dignity back.

654

Yeah.

655

Well we discussed this last time, right?

656

Mm-hmm.

657

Of the need for a message of

hope or optimism or aspiration

658

or dignity, um, and how that has.

659

Is almost absent entirely

in politics today.

660

Yeah.

661

Yeah.

662

And you know, I'm gonna say the,

you know, if we go back to the White

663

House and we go back to Dignity for

a minute, there's a lot of space

664

downhill below the, uh, where the East

Wing was a lot of space to do stuff.

665

Building a ballroom facility downhill

from the White House down slope with

666

a panoramic view back up towards the

mansion and back up towards the fountain.

667

That could have been exquisite.

668

You could have done it in a sort of a

modern strip classist interpretation or

669

postmodern interpretation of classism,

and it wouldn't have detracted from the

670

building would've served to give you

the view of it, so you could appreciate

671

it even as you're having events.

672

That's what I would've done.

673

Something that's complimentary

rather than, than competitive

674

with the current White House.

675

Yeah, exactly.

676

Exactly.

677

It would make it more of a distinct

space for those kind of events as well.

678

Yeah, and you could even do something that

was almost in the, uh, the international

679

Saudi Kennedy Center and make it work.

680

Yeah.

681

Because would largely be glass.

682

And that that could be, that, that

could have, that could have charms

683

also, but we're never gonna know.

684

Yeah.

685

Yeah.

686

I thought that was interesting

when I first saw the plans for this

687

ballroom about how much of it will be

glass, just from a safety standpoint.

688

I mean, obviously the Yeah.

689

White House proper is, has glass.

690

I'm certain it's quite thick.

691

Yes.

692

But, um, still is, and in some ways

the idea of a building where the public

693

could see even from a distance, you know.

694

The elites, whoever they are in

this ballroom, gives us a little bit

695

of insight, but it, it could also

feel, I don't know, insensitive or,

696

or something even unintentionally.

697

Yeah.

698

Yeah.

699

Uh, speaking of dignity, yes.

700

Do you wanna talk about the dignity

of having enough food to eat?

701

Uh, yeah, I do.

702

Um, so we are staring down the

barrel of, uh, what I think is.

703

One of the largest, if not the largest

policy-based failures, um, when it

704

comes to food security in American

history, where we have massive programs

705

that are designed to be safety net

programs, snap being one, supplemental

706

nutrition, assistance, assistance, um,

uh, or snap, uh, those kinds of programs

707

that are designed to help people.

708

Access food who can't otherwise

afford sufficient food.

709

I've, you know, spent my whole career

working in mental health or public

710

health, uh, and often working at programs

or designing programs aimed at helping

711

reach these kind of folks, um, just to

make sure that we all have enough food.

712

Uh, and here there's seems a willful

decision on the part of politicians, um,

713

who refuse to compromise on other issues

and are using this as a lever to try to.

714

Win political points or win an outcome.

715

Yeah.

716

Um, but it means that going into the

month where we traditionally celebrate

717

Thanksgiving, which is a holiday, which

we only eat, I mean, um, we are starting

718

it off on, uh, by taking steps to reduce

the amount of food access people have.

719

Yeah.

720

It's, I mean, it's very sad and

we've never shuttered, snap.

721

During a federal government shutdown

before, uh, related to this, it's

722

gonna take longer process social

security because of the layoffs.

723

Okay?

724

And it's gonna take you more time to get

through, um, airport security because

725

there was no reason for TSA to show up.

726

These people are gonna go and work

other jobs so they can get food.

727

Mm-hmm.

728

Because they can't even go to a

food, they can't even qualify.

729

Snap now.

730

Right?

731

Mm-hmm.

732

Um, so let's, let's talk about what

this means for every one meal that's

733

provided by the, uh, the various

food banks around the United States.

734

Everybody who's involved with

Feeding America and all that, right?

735

Nine meals are provided by Snap.

736

So if people look around and say,

oh, we can just fall back in the

737

charitable sector and the food banks to

take care of this, we are immediately

738

putting upon them a 900% increase in

demand, which they cannot provide.

739

Not because they're not

willing, but for two reasons.

740

They don't have enough

cash on hand to do it.

741

Mm-hmm.

742

In Parker, they don't have some

federal money they're used to having

743

also, because there's no food.

744

There's no food to buy.

745

Yeah.

746

Right.

747

You get rid of Snap, you're taking

money that is spent to buy food.

748

That means we are taking away money that

goes to grocers and food wholesalers.

749

Mm-hmm.

750

And farmers, right?

751

You're knocking the chalks

out of a chunk of the economy.

752

Uh uh, you know, one of my best friends,

Cassie Gilman, is with the Regional Food

753

Bank, and she described it to me this way.

754

She said, imagine.

755

If we have a tornado in every

county of the, of the country

756

at the same time, that's what's

about to happen with food demand.

757

Mm-hmm.

758

Is like, like level of need and demand.

759

Level of need is gonna be unprecedented.

760

You haven't seen, you're not gonna

have seen a level of need akin to this.

761

You'd have to go back to the

Great Depression to find it, and

762

even if it's only for a few days.

763

Okay.

764

So this is a huge disruption.

765

The other thing is when you start turning

off food distribution in this country and

766

you start turning off the infrastructure,

it takes a while to turn it back on.

767

We live with a perpetual 96 hour.

768

Tail to our food supply.

769

We only have food in the system.

770

Good for up to 96 hours out.

771

We're always four days away from

having empty grocery shelves, but

772

we just keep stocking it up, right?

773

It's just part of the

dynamic part of the industry.

774

This is why it was so important

to keep the infrastructure

775

turned on during the pandemic.

776

When we had Snap.

777

Mm-hmm.

778

Because if not, the

shelves would've gone dry.

779

Mm-hmm.

780

And sometimes they did remember, sometimes

they did just because of the disruption of

781

the, uh, of the, uh, of the infrastructure

of the food chain for distribution.

782

Well now we're taking, we're taking

the supply away that feeds the chain.

783

So this could lead to some real problems.

784

Mm-hmm.

785

Some real challenges for people.

786

And, um, the question is,

who's gonna get blamed?

787

Because this has gotten wrapped up

in, well, I can't imagine what bigger

788

politics there are, but this is

wrapped up in bigger politics about

789

trying to win some part of policy.

790

Right?

791

And this is the first time ever

this chicken game has been played at

792

this level with domestic politics.

793

Yeah.

794

And you know, a number of states

are looking at ways to tap into

795

their own state reserves mm-hmm.

796

To help fill the gap if they

can, at least for a short time.

797

Yeah.

798

As you, as you mentioned, it's an

enormous gap and it's going to get wider

799

and wider every day that this persists.

800

Uh, Oklahoma's not one of

those states, at least not yet.

801

No.

802

I know there are calls, uh, for Governor

Stitt to call a special session.

803

Um, he could call a special session

and it would require a vote of

804

two thirds of both chambers.

805

Mm-hmm.

806

To use some money from Oklahoma's

rainy day fund that could fill this

807

absent the governor's call, um, leaders

from both chambers along with a three

808

quarters, majority of both chambers

could call their own special session Yes.

809

And bring themselves back and do

this if the governor was unwilling.

810

Um, but I, you know, we've seen a few.

811

News hits.

812

I think there's a press conference today,

like it's starting to be talked about,

813

but it's been largely Democrats calling

on the governor, um, to call the special

814

session so they could go in and I would

assume knowing a little bit about Oklahoma

815

politics, that today is a Friday, um,

that Noah wasn't doing anything until at

816

least next week because it's the weekend.

817

Yeah.

818

And so they're gonna wait until

at least Monday before they make a

819

decision and probably go home and

cross their fingers that Congress.

820

Chooses to act by then instead.

821

Thereby getting the state off the hook.

822

Yeah.

823

They need it.

824

That extra hour of sleep they're

gonna get Sunday morning.

825

Yeah, I think that'll get 'em perk up.

826

Ready to go.

827

Perk up.

828

Yeah.

829

I mean, to me the really hard part

about this is that it is a weekend.

830

So kids who normally might get some

meals at school, um, sometimes that's

831

the only meal they get, um, won't have

that option for two whole days, which is.

832

A long time to go without food.

833

They might, you know, beg, borrow

and steal some ways to get food.

834

Mm-hmm.

835

The community is starting to step up

and as you said, um, we don't have the

836

infrastructure in place to actually get

food out to everybody you want to give.

837

Right.

838

Um, if listeners are interested in giving

the, what I've been told is to give to

839

groups like the Regional Food Bank or the

Food Bank of Eastern Oklahoma because they

840

do have some infrastructure and they can.

841

Access food supply avenues

that we don't have access to.

842

So yeah, if you can afford to buy one

can of tuna, that same money, they

843

can use it to buy four cans of tuna.

844

So that expands the reach of your dollar.

845

That's good.

846

But as you said, if the need is actually

ninefold, right, you should give us twice

847

as much as you could before in hopes that

it bridges the gap a little bit closer.

848

Yeah, and you know this, you know,

we, we think about this as being only.

849

You know, we've mentioned farmers

in passing and retailers in passing.

850

Um, every dollar that's spent by SNAP

has a $1 73 cent impact in the economy.

851

It's a 73% accretive value to a

dollar spent by the government.

852

It's one of the strongest

multipliers in the economy, period.

853

You find me an investment that'll

give me a 73% return on investment.

854

Right, right.

855

The moment the dollar is spent, I'm in.

856

Right, right.

857

Yeah.

858

You, you can't find an

index fund that'll do that.

859

Well, no.

860

And that's, that's gonna, somebody's gonna

gimme an apples to oranges complaint.

861

That's okay.

862

Yeah.

863

You know, you can eat both of those.

864

You can't eat air.

865

Right, right.

866

And that's, you said this earlier,

and I want to reiterate it that Yeah.

867

Um, you know, some of the rhetoric

around Snap is about who should

868

and shouldn't, who's deserving?

869

Oh, the worthy poor.

870

Yes.

871

The worthy poor.

872

But let's set that aside.

873

Yeah.

874

As egregious as that statement

might be, but like, let's set that

875

aside and, and recognize that the

only way food is acquired is that

876

someone's buying it from somebody.

877

Somebody's growing it, somebody's

creating it, and then somebody's

878

buying it and distributing it.

879

And when the government is an enormous

purchaser of food from our own producers,

880

that means there are thousands of farmers

across our country who are producing food.

881

Yeah.

882

And count on the government to buy it for

programs like Snap, we saw this happen.

883

Back in the spring with the U-S-A-I-D

where a lot of farmers, including

884

here in Oklahoma, produced food and

sold it almost entirely to the US

885

government to be sent overseas for

folks that don't have enough food

886

now, it's happening here domestically.

887

Yeah.

888

Well suddenly, yeah, you're, you, the

one customer of these food producers is

889

saying, nevermind, we're not gonna buy it.

890

Yeah.

891

And so not, it's not just hurting

the people who are the end consumers

892

of that food, which is like.

893

Needy kids and families, but you're

also hurting the people who produced

894

it and everybody in between.

895

Yeah.

896

It's a, so while the system when

it's running normally creates an

897

enormous, uh, gain for the economies,

like you said, 73%, uh, return on

898

investment, when you stop that,

you are not just hurting people,

899

but you're hurting the economy too.

900

Yep.

901

Surely everybody in this country

could be moved by an argument

902

that's either we're meeting people's

needs or meeting economic needs.

903

Um, when those two things align, that's

something we should be investing in.

904

And here we have, um, outright

refusal to, to make those investments.

905

Yeah.

906

And there's really nothing more

to be said than that, Andy.

907

That's just the reality of the situation.

908

And, uh, we are in, we are in an

environment where, uh, people are

909

trying to choose their realities.

910

Right?

911

Yeah.

912

But this one's a hard one to hide from.

913

You know, it's, uh, because the

consequences are that we both can't

914

buy food and we can't find food.

915

Yeah.

916

And that means that even though

917

there will continue to be demand,

but we don't know how to pay for it.

918

Yeah.

919

And then the question is,

are the pharmacists gonna sit

920

on supply and not ship it?

921

And that means that if there's less

supply, it means prices ironically go up.

922

Mm-hmm.

923

Right.

924

Uh, which means we get an

inflationary spike mm-hmm.

925

In the market basket.

926

Mm-hmm.

927

Um, you know, if you think back to the

depression, people forget the things that

928

happened with food during the depression.

929

You know, everybody thinks, oh well,

you know, wall Street fell right.

930

And then there was some unemployment.

931

Well now part of what happened is

commodities prices collapsed also.

932

Farmers couldn't get their crops to

market, so they'd plow them under.

933

Uh, there was a thing called the green

corn strike in Iowa, which if you don't

934

know about that, look that thing up.

935

You wanna talk about some

radicalism in the us.

936

Mm-hmm.

937

The green corn strike was an amazing

one, but you also had dairy farmers

938

that would drive their dairy product

to the edge of town and dump it

939

out rather than sell it at a loss.

940

So you hit conscious protests for

the destruction of food stuff.

941

Which further exacerbated the situation.

942

Yeah, so there's, there's precedent for

really bad symbolism in this country

943

and been a long, last time we had a

really, uh, an an economic environment

944

where farmers were actively protesting.

945

Their plight was in 1970s when

farms were regularly going bankrupt

946

up in a hyperinflation environment

of the Carter administration.

947

You know, this is, uh, we're

gonna see something we haven't

948

seen in a while mm-hmm.

949

Which is we're gonna see

agrarian discontent mm-hmm.

950

If we don't get this under control.

951

Mm-hmm.

952

And there's economic

implications there around mm-hmm.

953

Um, farmers utilizing, you know,

making insurance claims mm-hmm.

954

Around some of their crop insurance.

955

And some of those programs that have

a implication both for the future

956

rates will raise and all of that.

957

And also.

958

A more immediate implication for

some of the banks that have to pay

959

out some of those policies, that it

really creates a, a feedback loop

960

that's pretty disastrous, I think.

961

Yeah.

962

And that's what you wanna

avoid is the downward spiral.

963

Yeah.

964

And you know, we have

been in an era of test.

965

We've been stressed testing so many

things, uh, in economy and democracy

966

and, um, you know, the strain is showing.

967

Um, you know, the question is,

uh, is the public going to, um.

968

How's the public gonna

respond to that strain, right?

969

Mm-hmm.

970

And there are a variety

of choices the public has.

971

One is to vote change, right?

972

The other one is to

accept the circumstance.

973

Uh, the third is to accept whatever

comes after the circumstance as well.

974

Um, because right now the institutions

don't appear to be wanting to function.

975

US House of Representatives

is not in session.

976

The Senate is, but the house is not.

977

Mm-hmm.

978

And therefore, any effort

to try and make a deal.

979

It either requires the Senate to

take exactly what the house has

980

passed in the hopes that the White

House will sign it, or to wait for

981

the house to come back into session.

982

But that takes time.

983

Well, if the House has pointed the

Senate saying, oh, the Senate should do

984

something, and then you know, Senator

Thune, who's the leader of the Senate,

985

had a statement yesterday or this morning.

986

Yeah.

987

It was basically like.

988

I'm not, I haven't done

anything 'cause the White House

989

hasn't told me to do anything.

990

It's, I could give you a vote.

991

I don't know how it turns out.

992

Yeah.

993

Right.

994

And you know, the, uh,

995

you've never had a Republican

administration so inclined to take

996

guidance from the White House.

997

Yeah.

998

Uh, a Congress so inclined to

take guidance from the White

999

House is the current one.

00:44:26,910 --> 00:44:27,060

Yeah.

00:44:27,509 --> 00:44:29,009

Uh, no.

00:44:29,730 --> 00:44:31,320

Congressional Majority has been this.

00:44:32,235 --> 00:44:34,095

Subservient to the executive whim.

00:44:34,635 --> 00:44:34,915

Right, right.

00:44:35,625 --> 00:44:39,195

Uh, you know, yeah, maybe, maybe at

some point during F D'S administration

00:44:39,195 --> 00:44:43,575

also, but you know, back then the

Republicans said that FDR was a dictator.

00:44:43,845 --> 00:44:44,085

Right?

00:44:44,325 --> 00:44:44,505

Yeah.

00:44:44,955 --> 00:44:47,235

This is what happens when elector

our large personalities from New York

00:44:47,235 --> 00:44:48,705

State, I guess Andy, I don't know.

00:44:48,705 --> 00:44:53,445

It's, uh, well, and you know, when,

when you about the depression, the

00:44:53,445 --> 00:44:57,075

image that I have in my head, whenever

anyone says the Great Depression is of.

00:44:57,645 --> 00:44:59,235

The FDR Memorial mm-hmm.

00:44:59,505 --> 00:45:00,525

In dc Yeah.

00:45:00,615 --> 00:45:03,015

Which goes through all, you

know, he had four terms, right?

00:45:03,015 --> 00:45:03,075

Yeah.

00:45:03,075 --> 00:45:07,815

And so both world wars and part of

it was the, the depression there and

00:45:08,625 --> 00:45:11,505

there's that, uh, relief sculpture Yeah.

00:45:11,685 --> 00:45:15,195

Of people in line at a, a soup kitchen.

00:45:15,315 --> 00:45:15,435

Yeah.

00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,945

Um, and you can stand in

the line and it is, yeah.

00:45:18,945 --> 00:45:21,495

From the first moment I saw it,

it has haunted me ever since.

00:45:21,555 --> 00:45:21,735

Mm-hmm.

00:45:21,975 --> 00:45:24,345

Um, because it, when you go

there at night and the way they

00:45:24,345 --> 00:45:26,475

have the lighting provided.

00:45:26,835 --> 00:45:27,915

All the light bulbs are working.

00:45:28,305 --> 00:45:31,665

Um, they, it is haunting and like Yeah.

00:45:32,325 --> 00:45:36,015

Uh, the real, in the same way that, you

know, walking through the Korean War.

00:45:36,165 --> 00:45:36,435

Yeah.

00:45:36,435 --> 00:45:39,650

Memorial is haunting where you're just

suddenly in the jungle with the troops.

00:45:39,650 --> 00:45:39,930

Mm-hmm.

00:45:40,015 --> 00:45:40,425

Walking through it.

00:45:40,425 --> 00:45:43,125

It's a very, um, visceral experience.

00:45:43,125 --> 00:45:43,515

Yeah.

00:45:44,025 --> 00:45:44,205

Yeah.

00:45:44,205 --> 00:45:47,055

The, if you go looking for

the FDR memorial, it is.

00:45:48,450 --> 00:45:51,210

Below the mall headed

towards the Thomas Jefferson.

00:45:51,299 --> 00:45:51,390

Mm-hmm.

00:45:51,629 --> 00:45:52,440

It's over that way.

00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:52,770

More.

00:45:52,770 --> 00:45:52,830

Yeah.

00:45:52,919 --> 00:45:55,049

But it's very different because,

you know, it's very modern.

00:45:55,470 --> 00:45:55,770

Yeah.

00:45:55,890 --> 00:45:58,799

And the bad relief that they've

gotten there really is something else.

00:45:58,830 --> 00:45:58,890

Yeah.

00:45:58,890 --> 00:45:59,819

They're very moving.

00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:00,540

Very moving.

00:46:00,540 --> 00:46:02,220

Well that it's always

my favorite memorial.

00:46:02,220 --> 00:46:02,279

Yeah.

00:46:02,279 --> 00:46:04,740

I'm sure I've talked about it on the

show before, but when you first walk

00:46:04,740 --> 00:46:08,674

up, um, there's just, uh, Roosevelt Nno.

00:46:09,315 --> 00:46:10,185

Wheelchair, right?

00:46:10,185 --> 00:46:10,275

Yep.

00:46:10,425 --> 00:46:11,565

Normal size, right?

00:46:11,565 --> 00:46:14,565

Not where in DC everyone's a giant statue.

00:46:14,775 --> 00:46:14,835

Yeah.

00:46:14,835 --> 00:46:15,495

And this one's not.

00:46:15,495 --> 00:46:19,035

He's just there sitting in a

wheelchair off by himself almost.

00:46:19,125 --> 00:46:19,365

Yeah.

00:46:19,485 --> 00:46:20,445

Even further back.

00:46:20,445 --> 00:46:24,225

His dog is more proportionally, much

larger than he was at the beginning.

00:46:24,675 --> 00:46:29,535

Um, and as you walk through his

tenure as president and read all the

00:46:29,535 --> 00:46:34,245

quotes and think about what he like

experienced as president, it gives

00:46:34,245 --> 00:46:35,685

you a whole different perspective on.

00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:36,630

Yeah.

00:46:36,810 --> 00:46:42,870

What I think is the responsibility of

the presidency and um, the role, I think

00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:43,980

the responsibility is the right thing.

00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:48,150

Like what you were supposed to do as

president and how you shepherd a nation.

00:46:48,420 --> 00:46:48,540

Yeah.

00:46:48,540 --> 00:46:50,490

Through crisis.

00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:51,690

Yeah.

00:46:52,259 --> 00:46:57,690

Well, you know, that's in part of

part to who FDR was, um, you know,

00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,340

grew up in the progressive era.

00:46:59,370 --> 00:47:02,040

He was a protege of Woodrow Wilson.

00:47:02,130 --> 00:47:02,520

Right.

00:47:03,029 --> 00:47:06,870

Uh, saw himself as walking in the

footsteps of his cousin Teddy.

00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:07,290

Right.

00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:12,870

Pursued the same course of action it,

but also possessed of the upper classes.

00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:13,800

No blis cliche.

00:47:14,009 --> 00:47:14,340

Right.

00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,580

You know, that, that, that need to

provide and to provide by example and.

00:47:21,615 --> 00:47:22,965

The Giving Elite, right?

00:47:22,965 --> 00:47:23,055

Mm-hmm.

00:47:23,295 --> 00:47:23,445

Yeah.

00:47:23,445 --> 00:47:27,375

FDR engaged in authoritative

allocation of values, but they were

00:47:27,375 --> 00:47:31,365

supposed to be, they were supposed

to be values of charity, right.

00:47:31,995 --> 00:47:35,595

And values of compassion, uh, tempered

00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:39,225

and possessed of strength.

00:47:39,225 --> 00:47:39,915

Mm-hmm.

00:47:40,455 --> 00:47:45,525

And we have a very different articulation

of elite values coming outta DC now.

00:47:46,605 --> 00:47:47,595

And, um.

00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:51,150

I'm not sure where it

attaches to the, I don't know.

00:47:51,150 --> 00:47:53,040

Maybe we're, we're getting

who we are as a people.

00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:54,330

Maybe this is who we are.

00:47:55,110 --> 00:47:56,550

You know, Keith, I think

you're exactly right.

00:47:56,550 --> 00:48:00,660

I've, yeah, I, as I'm sure like you and

probably most of our listeners, right?

00:48:00,660 --> 00:48:01,140

You, yeah.

00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,980

Float through life day to day,

trying to get work done, do normal

00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:08,400

things, take your kid to school,

your dog to the vet, all that stuff.

00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:10,680

But in the back of your

mind is this constant.

00:48:11,970 --> 00:48:13,439

Uh, strain, right?

00:48:13,439 --> 00:48:15,540

There's like a, it's like a

process on your computer that's

00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:17,584

hung up and it's just running,

running, running in the background.

00:48:17,584 --> 00:48:17,825

Mm-hmm.

00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:18,120

Yeah.

00:48:18,839 --> 00:48:21,149

And for me, so often it's

like, how did we get here?

00:48:21,689 --> 00:48:22,890

How do we get out of this?

00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,500

And what does this say

about us as a country?

00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:27,990

Um, and what does it say

about me as a American?

00:48:28,649 --> 00:48:30,209

What are my values really?

00:48:30,419 --> 00:48:34,319

Um, which, you know, so to

kind of bring this conversation

00:48:34,319 --> 00:48:36,990

back around to the ballroom.

00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:37,410

Yeah.

00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,970

Like when I see news about that.

00:48:39,390 --> 00:48:42,150

I wanna read about it 'cause it's kind

of interesting and I'm into architecture

00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:45,240

and yeah, I have a passing interest in

some of this stuff, but I find myself

00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:50,940

getting angry and then I feel, uh,

not quite guilty, but I feel wrong.

00:48:50,940 --> 00:48:51,000

Yeah.

00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:56,280

For getting angry about that when I

know there are much bigger issues.

00:48:56,310 --> 00:48:56,370

Yeah.

00:48:56,370 --> 00:49:00,240

That deserve some righteous indignation

and some action on the part of us.

00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:00,390

Yeah.

00:49:00,390 --> 00:49:00,570

Well.

00:49:01,665 --> 00:49:04,215

For a moment, let's talk about

how the ballroom's different.

00:49:04,365 --> 00:49:04,455

Yeah.

00:49:04,455 --> 00:49:04,875

Okay.

00:49:05,385 --> 00:49:09,405

Usually when you build stuff in dc,

whenever you build a public building,

00:49:09,735 --> 00:49:11,235

there's a process and a system.

00:49:11,415 --> 00:49:11,685

Okay.

00:49:12,375 --> 00:49:15,615

And one of the things you do is you

often, you'll put a thing out for you,

00:49:15,615 --> 00:49:17,055

put a thing out for competitive bid.

00:49:17,385 --> 00:49:21,705

So you have a design competition, you

put out a set specifications and an RFP.

00:49:22,545 --> 00:49:27,975

And uh, I've participated in these things

with some design faculty at ou and then.

00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,470

You get submissions and there's a

screening committee and you get down

00:49:31,470 --> 00:49:35,820

to a final set of designs and then you

choose one and you get a contractor, and

00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:37,800

that's put out to competitive bid as well.

00:49:38,130 --> 00:49:41,220

And the rules that govern that as well,

that have been around for decades, and

00:49:41,220 --> 00:49:42,960

then you, then you get the contractor.

00:49:43,650 --> 00:49:48,000

But even before then, one of the things

we tend to do in public policy is

00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,870

we prepare the playing field, right?

00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:55,285

We prepare the public for

the need for the thing.

00:49:56,565 --> 00:49:58,095

This ballroom came outta left field.

00:49:58,095 --> 00:49:58,185

Mm-hmm.

00:49:58,755 --> 00:49:59,025

Yeah.

00:49:59,835 --> 00:50:02,235

And if they'd just been building a

ballroom, that would've been fine.

00:50:02,235 --> 00:50:05,535

But the fact that you're gonna

demolish part of part, you're gonna

00:50:05,535 --> 00:50:08,295

demolish an addition of the White

House to put a new addition on it.

00:50:08,985 --> 00:50:10,875

And it's so outta scale.

00:50:10,875 --> 00:50:12,135

It's just sprung on people.

00:50:12,135 --> 00:50:13,125

It's just surprising.

00:50:13,155 --> 00:50:13,245

Mm-hmm.

00:50:13,810 --> 00:50:15,310

And it's, and none of

the rules are followed.

00:50:15,310 --> 00:50:18,435

The next thing in line after a whole bunch

of other stuff has been sprung on people.

00:50:18,555 --> 00:50:18,645

Mm-hmm.

00:50:18,885 --> 00:50:19,905

Throughout the course of this year.

00:50:19,935 --> 00:50:20,205

Yeah.

00:50:20,205 --> 00:50:23,265

And, you know, and this is the, you

know, the, you know, this executive

00:50:23,265 --> 00:50:28,245

that wants to be a man of action

and you've got a, um, you know,

00:50:28,245 --> 00:50:30,975

a desire to simply rule by fiat.

00:50:31,275 --> 00:50:31,635

Right.

00:50:31,935 --> 00:50:33,945

This is out of the authoritarian playbook.

00:50:34,425 --> 00:50:35,055

That's what it is.

00:50:35,055 --> 00:50:36,555

It is an authoritarian play.

00:50:37,875 --> 00:50:38,535

Technically.

00:50:38,540 --> 00:50:38,819

Mm-hmm.

00:50:38,955 --> 00:50:39,254

Okay.

00:50:40,424 --> 00:50:42,794

It's that ability to act unilaterally,

oh, I'm gonna do this thing.

00:50:42,794 --> 00:50:44,834

I'm gonna build this ballroom,

I'm gonna decorate in this manner.

00:50:44,834 --> 00:50:46,785

I'm gonna put my imprimatur

on the White House.

00:50:47,415 --> 00:50:51,015

Uh, and we're not gonna follow any of

the rules to do it because there are

00:50:51,015 --> 00:50:54,674

no rules That's completely consistent

with the environment we've been walking

00:50:54,674 --> 00:50:56,055

in, working in for quite a while.

00:50:56,234 --> 00:50:56,535

Right.

00:50:57,075 --> 00:50:58,544

Eh, there aren't really any rules.

00:50:59,234 --> 00:51:02,774

So, and if you don't like it, we got

a camp down in South Florida, you can

00:51:02,774 --> 00:51:04,245

visit for a while to work on Yuan.

00:51:04,245 --> 00:51:04,575

Right.

00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:05,610

Yeah.

00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:06,120

Yeah.

00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:06,630

Cool.

00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,720

Um, uh, sorry, maybe that was a bit much.

00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:10,560

I'm sorry about that.

00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,270

Well, no, I mean, yeah.

00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,830

It's not you that built the camp.

00:51:14,279 --> 00:51:14,490

No.

00:51:15,450 --> 00:51:15,720

Yeah.

00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:17,430

Oh, good.

00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,710

Billy Joel songs now we

didn't start the fire.

00:51:20,220 --> 00:51:20,520

Yeah, yeah.

00:51:22,410 --> 00:51:26,190

Um, uh, before we wrap up.

00:51:26,220 --> 00:51:26,490

Yeah.

00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:29,340

Um, you know, we try to end

every episode with some.

00:51:30,795 --> 00:51:34,185

Highlighting of opportunities

for how we can do something.

00:51:34,424 --> 00:51:34,575

Yeah.

00:51:34,575 --> 00:51:39,165

Because it's, I don't ever wanna

put out a podcast that just brings

00:51:39,165 --> 00:51:41,714

people down and they feel powerless.

00:51:41,865 --> 00:51:42,105

Right.

00:51:42,105 --> 00:51:47,234

I think to our point about, um, and

our larger discussion about grievance

00:51:47,234 --> 00:51:51,795

in today's politics and the need for

change, we try to end on a note of,

00:51:52,395 --> 00:51:55,455

uh, optimism or at least opportunity.

00:51:55,455 --> 00:51:55,545

Mm-hmm.

00:51:56,145 --> 00:51:58,185

Um, and short of.

00:51:58,964 --> 00:52:02,415

Everyone driving to protest a ballroom,

which doesn't help feed anybody.

00:52:02,895 --> 00:52:05,415

Um, there are things we can do right now.

00:52:05,835 --> 00:52:05,955

Yeah.

00:52:05,955 --> 00:52:06,555

In our communities.

00:52:07,095 --> 00:52:07,935

Um, okay.

00:52:07,964 --> 00:52:11,295

Uh, r fbo.org.

00:52:11,805 --> 00:52:17,790

Regional Food Bank of Oklahoma, they

need to raise an additional $5.5

00:52:17,790 --> 00:52:19,424

million in the next month.

00:52:19,424 --> 00:52:21,734

Be able to meet the needs.

00:52:22,275 --> 00:52:27,345

Of people who are food less or food

distressed that will arise from, that