Artwork for podcast Changing Academic Life
Mobility, pensions and you, yes you! (solo)
Episode 6 • 20th October 2023 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 00:19:24

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this short solo episode, I reflect back on recent conversations around academic mobility, discuss some benefits, and also point to an EU initiative to improve support for mobility across sectors, countries and disciplines. I also discuss some of the costs and issues around mobility, and in particular pensions, something we don’t often think about. In sharing my experiences with a complicated pension situation because of my international and sector mobility, I encourage everyone to think about this now.

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction, revisiting mobility form past episodes

[02:16] EU initiative towards better mobility support, mobility benefits

[04:47] Shadow sides of mobility

[06:12] Pension challenges with mobility

[08:12] My mobility and pension story

[15:08] Encouraging people to think more about pensions

[16:50] RESAVER pension fund

[19:24] End



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

:

Welcome to this short episode.

6

:

Today.

7

:

I want to reflect a little bit

about the issues of mobility.

8

:

And we've been hearing quite

a lot about mobility in some

9

:

of the recent conversations.

10

:

And related to this, I want

to talk about pensions.

11

:

Now, please don't turn off just yet.

12

:

Just because you think this isn't for you.

13

:

Because that's going to be the

very point I want to make today.

14

:

And that is that this is something we

should all be thinking about from early

15

:

on, especially in relation to mobility.

16

:

And I'll be sharing my own

experiences of this because I

17

:

didn't think about it so clearly.

18

:

So to revisit.

19

:

We've talked about mobility and academia

and the value of mobility for things like

20

:

networking for getting new perspectives.

21

:

For seeing the way different

groups operate different labs,

22

:

operate, seeing how systems.

23

:

Are in different countries and so on.

24

:

And indeed mobility is often perceived

as being valuable in our CVS.

25

:

For better or worse.

26

:

So these experiences in different

countries, different contexts, we've

27

:

heard about in the discussions with Sarah

Davies and Suzanne Bødker just recently

28

:

where they talked about the value they

experienced around mobility and the value

29

:

of being able to visit other places.

30

:

In their different ways and the

opportunities for networking and

31

:

research and career building.

32

:

And indeed Karen Stroobants also talks

about a different type of mobility

33

:

story, not just moving countries, but

also moving sectors where she moved from

34

:

research into doing more policy work.

35

:

And recognizing the value

of mobility in academia.

36

:

We can also see that there are starting

to be more policy level initiatives.

37

:

For example, in the EU, there are

activities going on at European level

38

:

to develop some council recommendations

on a European framework to attract

39

:

and retain talents in Europe.

40

:

And some of the issues that these

recommendations are trying to address are

41

:

around how to stimulate mobility and how

to better support mobility across sectors.

42

:

This is, this is something that's

still under discussion and negotiation.

43

:

They talk about different

types of mobility.

44

:

So it's mobility across sectors,

such as between industry and

45

:

academia or academia to policy.

46

:

As we heard with Karen.

47

:

It can also mean mobility across

geographies, moving countries.

48

:

And it can mean mobility

across disciplines.

49

:

Where people may shift the

disciplinary areas of their work.

50

:

As we heard with Sarah.

51

:

And we've had many examples.

52

:

Other examples in the stories told

in the podcast of people who've done

53

:

this mobility across disciplines and

across geographies in particular.

54

:

So it's, it's quite a

common story that we hear.

55

:

And so this EU recommendation,

will be looking at how we might

56

:

go about more targeted training

and skills development for people

57

:

to support them in the mobility.

58

:

And also very rightly.

59

:

Um, how we might better recognize the

diverse skills, especially when it

60

:

comes to the assessment of researchers.

61

:

And this is important because we know

that a lot of the research points

62

:

to the fact that people with very

mixed CVs mixed career profiles,

63

:

, moving sectors in particular.

64

:

Can often find it harder to be valued

equally as someone who stayed in

65

:

the one sector in one discipline.

66

:

So there are lots of positives to

mobility where it's possible for you

67

:

and also creative ways of getting

the benefits of mobility, where you

68

:

can't be fully moving to different

countries and different situations.

69

:

And Susanne was a great example of

this, where she was employed in Aarhus

70

:

university for 40 years but she also

was able to engage in mobility in

71

:

creative ways through visits through

sabbaticals and so on and so still

72

:

able to derive the value that you

get for networking and research

73

:

However, we've also heard about

the shadow sides of mobility,

74

:

and we know that they exist.

75

:

So Sarah's experiences also pointed to

the fact that a lot of mobility choices

76

:

that she made were related to issues

of short-term contracts and that whole

77

:

precarious postdoc experience and needing

to be able to travel to follow jobs.

78

:

Also sometimes we know mobility.

79

:

Isn't always the first choice or

may not be possible for people.

80

:

And Susanne's story reminds us that not

everyone is able to be mobile in that way.

81

:

And this may be because of issues around

partners or family responsibilities.

82

:

Or just personal preference for wanting to

stay living in a particular place as home.

83

:

But there are also other consequences

and costs around mobility.

84

:

So some of Sarah's discussions pointed

to the practical dislocation of

85

:

having to get settled somewhere new

of setting up a new place of living,

86

:

getting familiar with different lab,

culture, different geographical culture.

87

:

Building new social connections and so on.

88

:

And of course there are also

probably lots of very practical

89

:

financial costs involved.

90

:

And I can attest to all of

these different sorts of costs

91

:

in the moving that we've done.

92

:

That I'll talk about soon.

93

:

And there are yet.

94

:

Other consequences of mobility, but I

hadn't ever really taken seriously or

95

:

thought of, and that's around pensions.

96

:

And that's an issue for me now

because I've just shifted into

97

:

a new status in my career.

98

:

Because we have mandatory

retirement, at my institution.

99

:

So my formal employment as a

professor at TU Wien has finished,

100

:

finished end of September.

101

:

And so pension has suddenly

become an issue that I've had

102

:

to take into consideration.

103

:

And now I've done some moving myself

across geographies and sectors.

104

:

I've worked in Australia as a

nurse and a midwife before I

105

:

did my computer science degree.

106

:

And then I did my PhD and I

worked as a researcher there.

107

:

I've worked in the UK in industry

and then moved to a university

108

:

position and I've worked in Austria.

109

:

And I recognize that I have been

very privileged here, in that

110

:

we've had much more flexibility

about moving than many people.

111

:

As we weren't able to have kids.

112

:

So we didn't have the complexities

that, having families often

113

:

bring into the issues of mobility.

114

:

And so we can see that in this

case, there are pluses and

115

:

minuses for every situation.

116

:

It's still one of the things I really

never thought about with the consequences

117

:

of moving across countries is about how do

I accumulate a good enough pension fund to

118

:

support our later years or my later years?

119

:

And I think this is especially

tricky when you're working across

120

:

multiple countries and regions.

121

:

And with very different systems

that operate in very different ways.

122

:

So my main message here is going

to be, think, and plan now.

123

:

And I'm going to go on and just

tell a little bit more of my

124

:

specific situation to illustrate.

125

:

As I said, I worked in Australia, then

I moved to the UK and the motivation for

126

:

moving to the UK was not so much career

driven, but more about, a health issue in

127

:

my husband's family, who were in Ireland.

128

:

And we wanted to be closer

to the family at that time.

129

:

And this situation happened to coincide

with an opportunity for me to work as

130

:

a user experience consultant in London.

131

:

So pension was the last

consideration here.

132

:

It was all about being closer to family

and the sort of job I was going into.

133

:

And then at some time later on, as I

said, I moved from industry to academia.

134

:

So sometime later on, I was in academia

in the UK, but I was encouraged to apply

135

:

for this professor position in Austria.

136

:

So, of course I thought I had no chance.

137

:

And, when I was finally offered the

position, I had to really take some

138

:

time to consider before saying yes.

139

:

But again, pension didn't even make

it onto the, the whole for and

140

:

against list that you tend to do it

at these sorts of decision points.

141

:

And I moved.

142

:

Because it was an opportunity

for promotion into this professor

143

:

role , and also, yeah, it was

interesting having the opportunity

144

:

to live somewhere very different.

145

:

So in making these decisions

to move to these different

146

:

places, to move across sectors.

147

:

. Pension never factored into

any of the decisions.

148

:

And of course like the idea of a pension

just seems so far off, certainly something

149

:

really ridiculous to even think about.

150

:

And of course also the fact that there

were some default systems in place in

151

:

the different countries or companies

that you went to and institutions that

152

:

you went to, you, you just walked in and

accepted the schemes that were on offer

153

:

and paid into them as was required.

154

:

But what I'm finding now is a lot

of the minutia of having pensions

155

:

across different countries.

156

:

Can be really problematic.

157

:

For example, one issue is that

different countries often

158

:

have different pensionable ages

at which people can retire.

159

:

And when they can start

collecting their pension payments.

160

:

So in Austria, that's at 65 in the

UK at 66 and in Australia at 67.

161

:

So, what that means is if you are reliant

in some way, Upon the accumulation of

162

:

funds from different countries that you

want to bring together in order to live.

163

:

You're going to have gaps in funding for

those years until the pensionable age in

164

:

all those different countries kicks in.

165

:

There's also the issue that all

the different countries have very

166

:

different systems and regulations

around their pension schemes.

167

:

So, In Australia in the time that I was

working there, there was a move to a

168

:

much more a self-funded pension scheme

through what they call superannuation.

169

:

And the government pension scheme is

really just for people who really need it.

170

:

So there's a lot more flexibility and

freedom there about when people can start

171

:

drawing upon their own contributions

to their own superannuation scheme.

172

:

However, one of the complications.

173

:

In this situation is that.

174

:

Those contributions when they're

drawn on by people living

175

:

in Australia, are tax-free.

176

:

But if they get drawn on by people living

like myself, living outside of Australia,

177

:

you have to pay tax on it locally.

178

:

Even though you've already

paid tax before contributing.

179

:

So that's an issue.

180

:

In other countries, there can be

minimum periods for making contributions

181

:

before you're entitled to a pension.

182

:

In the UK, I worked for

a total of nine years.

183

:

And it's 10 years as their magic

number of years of minimal.

184

:

Years paying into the system

before receiving a pension.

185

:

And similarly in Austria, the minimum

number of years for paying into

186

:

the system before being eligible to

receive a state pension is 15 years.

187

:

And by the end of September,

this year, I was at 14 years.

188

:

So one year shortfall in both countries.

189

:

Now, of course, there are often specific

agreements between countries about

190

:

this and, and within the EU here,

for example, there are arrangements

191

:

where the years in one European

country can be counted in some way

192

:

with the years in another country, so

that there's an overall eligibility.

193

:

However, the processes for finding

out about all these and getting all of

194

:

it determined are really non-trivial.

195

:

I know too, that Austria has some

sort of government government

196

:

arrangement with Australia.

197

:

And I'm still trying to

get my head around that.

198

:

And it is a complex process.

199

:

I submitted a form in September, 2022

requesting information about what would

200

:

be my situation, what I might receive

ension come end of September,:

201

:

And, I had to document the fact that

I'd worked in Australia and worked in

202

:

the UK and provide all of those details.

203

:

And I'm still waiting for an

answer, despite lots of follow-up.

204

:

And I know it's complicated for them

too, because they're having to go to

205

:

these different countries where I've

lived and get their public servants

206

:

in the appropriate departments to

provide information to them on my case.

207

:

So that the Austrian pension

scheme can make their determination.

208

:

So I'm very grateful that I'm not

relying on that sort of pension payment.

209

:

Now this week to pay my rent or to eat.

210

:

Because, as I said, I'm still

waiting for information.

211

:

It's a long bureaucratic process,

and it's also just really hard to

212

:

work out how to navigate it, despite

trying to get advice and help.

213

:

Now when I did move to Austria, I

do remember that there was a bit of

214

:

a short discussion about the fact

that my time in the UK would count

215

:

because I would only have 14 years at

the point of a mandatory retirement.

216

:

So it was something that was brought up.

217

:

So I can't say there was

no discussion about it.

218

:

But I can say that I really

didn't appreciate the nuances

219

:

and consequences of that.

220

:

And I certainly didn't

negotiate around this at all.

221

:

So just to reassure, I

am able to pay my rent.

222

:

We've been able to find a bit of an

Austrian workaround solution where I've

223

:

been able to continue working at the

university in a sort of a self-funded

224

:

way at part time for another 12 months.

225

:

So at least that will enable me to get

the full 15 years in austria paying

226

:

into the system and it's one country's

pension that i can be more confident about

227

:

so I just wanted to share my story

because I know that something like

228

:

pension just seems so far off.

229

:

And even for me, I think up until

the moment at the end of September.

230

:

It still seemed far off.

231

:

Cause I'm just way too young for

this, but nevertheless, it is

232

:

a reality of life and it is a

reality of the costs of my academic

233

:

intersectoral inter geography mobility.

234

:

And I want to suggest that it is

something that we should all be trying

235

:

to pay more attention to, especially

where we are mobile or especially

236

:

way we might be supporting people.

237

:

Doing some of that crossing,

doing some of that mobile work.

238

:

So, what I would encourage people to

do moving forward is if you are going

239

:

to be academically mobile in some way,

And, I know that different countries

240

:

will have all sorts of other different

complications than the examples in my

241

:

specific case, but just to make sure that

this is something that you do think about.

242

:

And talk about with your next employer.

243

:

And also seek expert advice about

how you might mitigate some of the

244

:

negative consequences of mobility.

245

:

In my case, for example, I wonder if

I could have negotiated at the signing

246

:

of the contract to join TU for a

special exemption to work a 15th

247

:

year to get around this limitation.

248

:

It's all moot now, of course.

249

:

And there may be other plans

or other ways that you could

250

:

mitigate some of the implications.

251

:

My encouragement is just to think

about it, discuss it and seek

252

:

expert advice and to include it

as part of your negotiations.

253

:

I can also end on a more positive

note here, because at least for people

254

:

within the EU, there's now at the EU

level, a pension fund called re saver.

255

:

And I'll include a link

to it in the show notes.

256

:

And from what I can understand

about it, I'm not an expert at all.

257

:

It seems to have been something

that was set up from a new EU

258

:

directive back in December, 2016.

259

:

If I read all the webpages correctly.

260

:

And the whole idea of it is to

precisely address some of the issues

261

:

that I've just reported on and, to

quote from their website, it's about

262

:

providing a reliable pension scheme

that fosters mobility and helps

263

:

institutions attract the best talent.

264

:

And by enabling mobile researchers

to keep their pension arrangements

265

:

while changing countries and jobs.

266

:

And it offers a defined contribution

and tailored plan for research

267

:

organizations and their employees.

268

:

So again, from what I understand,

it's the organizations that need

269

:

to be signed up to ReSaver in order

for you as an individual employee,

270

:

to be able to take advantage of it.

271

:

But at least it's encouraging, isn't it?

272

:

That at least this sort of cross

country, regional area, there's some

273

:

consideration and support of this.

274

:

And it's not just encouraging mobility

across sectors, across disciplines,

275

:

across geographies, but also putting

in place some of the practical

276

:

supports that make it feasible.

277

:

And that address the real sort

of actual costs of doing this,

278

:

particularly in the longer term.

279

:

So that's it for today.

280

:

Just some food for

thought for your future.

281

:

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

282

:

links for this podcast on www.

283

:

changingacademiclife.

284

:

com.

285

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

286

:

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

287

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

288

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

289

:

we can do academia differently.

290

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

291

:

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

292

:

with your colleagues together.

293

:

We can make change happen.

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube