The Evolution of B2B Content Marketing - Ashley Faus

Content has been the lifeblood of how B2B companies go to market for at least 20 years, since Hubspot pioneered the concept of Inbound Marketing.

We make content, we drip it out, we nurture people with it, we align it with our funnels, and we have a conviction that it makes people buy things—although that's also quite difficult to prove.

The content game is not going anywhere, but it IS changing. And to guide us through those changes, we're chatting today with B2B content expert Ashley Faus, Head of Lifecycle Marketing at Atlassian.

Ashley challenges traditional content mapping to the B2B funnel and introduces the idea of a "content playground" where people engage with content in a way that suits them best in a non-linear, non-standard journey.

She also delves into the different intents behind content (buy, use, help, trust), the different levels of content (conceptual, strategic, tactical), the nuances between individual and brand-led content, and the growing role of B2B creators.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

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About Today's Guest

Ashley Faus is a marketer, writer, speaker by day, and a singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.

She's a leading content marketing expert who loves telling the high-level stories that resonate with an audience and connecting the dots between types of assets and distribution channels. For the past seven years, she's been the Head of Lifecycle Marketing, Portfolio, at Atlassian.

Her writing has been published on TIME, Forbes, MarketingProfs, and The Muse, and she's spoken on various marketing topics for INBOUND, Harvard Business Review, and MarketingProfs.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyfaus/

Key Topics

[00:00] - Introduction
[01:17] - A brief history of content marketing
[04:41] - Over-indexing on attribution
[08:55] - Different types of content intent
[15:42] - Individual vs. brand-led content
[19:12] - B2B creators
[29:24] - The content playground
[45:52] - Email as a consumption channel
[49:02] - Treating people as a whole human
[51:47] - Content formats
[54:54] - AI

Resource Links

Create a “Content Playground” that’s Fun for Buyers (and Lucrative for You)

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Justin Norris: 00:00:14

Welcome to RevOps FM, you know, for at least 20 years since

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: 00:00:17

HubSpot pioneered this concept of inbound

marketing content has been the lifeblood

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: 00:00:23

of how B2B companies go to market.

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: 00:00:26

We make it, we drip it out, we

nurture people with it, we align

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: 00:00:29

it with our funnels and We have a

sort of general conviction that it

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: 00:00:33

makes people buy things, although

that's also difficult to prove.

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: 00:00:37

And the content game is not going

anywhere, I think, but it is changing.

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: 00:00:42

You know, the landscape gets saturated,

old playbooks stop working well,

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: 00:00:46

and it's also easier now than ever

before for anyone to be a content

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: 00:00:50

creator with the rise of AI and

the availability of new tools.

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: 00:00:54

So today I really want to look

at where we've been and where

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: 00:00:57

we're going with B2B content.

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: 00:00:59

And to help guide us through

that, we have Ashley Faust.

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: 00:01:03

She's a top expert and thought

leader on content marketing.

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: 00:01:05

And for nearly seven years she's been

at Atlassian where she's currently

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: 00:01:09

The head of life cycle marketing.

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: 00:01:12

Ashley, thank you so much

for coming on the show.

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: 00:01:14

Ashley Faus: Yeah.

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: 00:01:14

Thanks for having me.

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: 00:01:15

This is going to be a fun one.

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: 00:01:17

Justin Norris: So maybe let's start

with that kind of big picture, landscape

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: 00:01:22

question, and maybe if you want to just

zoom out, give us this macro view of like

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how you view the evolution of content

marketing over the past 15 or 20 years,

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Ashley Faus: sure.

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So I was coming up as

kind of a newbie marketer.

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I have a generalist background.

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And so I was just coming up when

Marketo was starting to get big.

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when HubSpot had put out the

inbound manifesto and content

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marketing kind of became a thing.

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: 00:01:47

And this concept that, You could

actually collect people's email

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addresses and then email them regularly

and then see the journey of all

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the content that they consumed, the

places they went on your website,

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connecting all of that with email.

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I just remember my first time opening

up the Marketo dashboard and being

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like, Is it, weird that I want

to just like nerd out and look at

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what all these people are doing?

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so now fast forward, a decade,

and I'm like, why are we still

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collecting people's email addresses?

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this is stupid.

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Why are we gaining content at all?

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I frequently rant about, behavioral

MQLs in large part because people

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are still using that playbook from 10

years ago where they're like, Oh, they

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read, they downloaded five eBooks.

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We progressively profiled them and,

they're spending more and more time on

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the website, so they must be ready to buy.

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And I'm just like, have they

told you they're ready to buy?

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No, the reason they're not buying

is because they don't want to buy.

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I understand that there are a lot of

teams and, several of my colleagues

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who have actually had great success

with both behavioral MQLs and

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what we would call hand raisers.

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Right.

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I ran that playbook years ago in my

career, but I think that as we've evolved

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and the barriers have been To creating,

sharing, content to building an audience

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as those barriers have gotten lower.

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That means that the noise has gotten

a lot higher and the expectations

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have gotten a lot higher.

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And so I think that we are going

to continue to see this decrease

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in kind of that traditional.

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put an asset behind a form, progressively

profile people, email them, a generic

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automated sequence, and really starting

to see that shift into a lot more

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personalization, being much more

focused on people who are raising

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their hands and making that educational

content more available to them without

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assuming that someone looking for

education means that they are also.

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Ready and able

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Justin Norris: you know, I, came

up through the B2B marketing

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world at around the same time

as that era that you described.

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And.

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I remember it as almost like a

golden age of marketing content.

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You had HubSpot doing really innovative

things like, a Guinness records, breaking

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a webinar with like the most people,

like it was thousands of people on it.

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I remember attending that webinar

where you mentioned Marketo and

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John Miller wrote his definitive

guides, which were really.

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You know meaty and valuable and I almost

wonder if if those companies Not became

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victims of their own success But content

marketing became victims of their success

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and that everyone started to replicate

it, but without the same thoughtfulness

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where just anyone could spin up a whole

bunch of seo blog posts that became

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increasingly thin and lacking value Do

you see it happening that way as well?

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Ashley Faus: And I think the other

big driver is that the, feeling that

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you could now measure and attribute

every single thing meant that every

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single thing should be measured.

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And attributed and that swing, I

think it was, the famous quote.

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That's like, I waste 50 percent

of my advertising budget.

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I just don't know which 50 percent we

almost swung the opposite way where

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it was like, we can and should measure

every single thing and every single thing

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should be exactly attributed to pipeline.

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And so it swung this way.

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And I actually think it's coming back now

with, you know, multi touch attribution

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and a bigger conversation about.

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The attribution, where it's not

how much pipeline did this specific

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asset contribute and more of in

the deals that are closed one, what

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content was consumed on that journey?

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Those are 2 different

questions, and if you look at.

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the capabilities of that software when

they were coming up, it really was more

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focused on how much did this asset drive

and you could measure it at the asset

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level, but only on your own properties.

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And so we just swung into this

idea that, okay, I'm going to

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put all the content on my site.

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I'm going to put it all behind a form.

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All of my social media posts are

going to drive to a landing page.

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To force people to fill out this

form so that I can measure it.

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And now we're only going to measure

social media by referral traffic

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and click throughs to the website.

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We're only going to measure

website success by form bills.

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content downloads, or in the case

of sass and product led growth,

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free signups, you know, how many

people signed up from that page.

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And I think that mindset is actually

the victim of success is almost

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if we can measure all of these

things, we can only do this type of

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marketing so that we can measure it.

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And so it's still really hard to

measure brand perception, sentiment

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influence on revenue Even though we

know instinctively that brand matters.

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And so there's some

really interesting things.

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I think it's also the current

discussion around demand generation

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versus demand capture, right?

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That semantics discussion is trying

to get at the mindset of, are you

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talking to people who are in market

and are willing and able to buy.

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Within the next quarter, or are you

trying to build that affinity so that

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when somebody does come into the market

and they are willing and able to buy,

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they come to you first and then people

are like, true demand generation, isn't

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that just brand and demand capture?

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That's what we really mean by demand.

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And then people.

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Also come back with like, well,

technically lead gen, that's

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what content marketing should

be doing because, you know, once

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you hit that MQL, that's a lead.

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So we actually need to be talking about

demand gen, demand capture and lead gen.

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And I'm like, guys, this is the same

conversation we were having a decade ago.

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About lead scoring, what counts as an

MQL, what touch points matter most.

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Well, only the touch points

we can easily measure.

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Right?

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So it's, kind of funny.

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Cause I feel like the conversation

takes on a slightly different.

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angle, but each generation

of marketer ends up, it's

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like you become your parents.

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You know, you become the marketing

leader that you were like ranting

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against when you were a newbie marketer.

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And now you are that marketer

because you're talking to

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higher levels of leadership.

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So it's kind of a funny full

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circle moment.

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Justin Norris: It's these glorious

semantics debates that we love to

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have, for some reason, but you touched

on so many important things there.

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So maybe just the thread I'll, choose

first to pull on is the one around

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measurability and, what it says about,

I guess what content is for, because

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if we expect that we're going to

measure everything and then be able to

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attribute content directly to pipeline,

that says something that it's almost.

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we're treating content almost as

like a direct response channel.

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We're expecting it to perform in this way.

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how do you think of it?

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Like if someone said to you, what is,

what is content even for in marketing?

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Why do we produce it?

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What would your answer

to that question be?

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Ashley Faus: I would say that there

are actually different intents and

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this is around the audience intent

and the next action they'll take.

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So to your point about using content

as a direct response channel,

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That content is by intent content.

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This is someone who is looking

to solve a problem by purchasing

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a product or a solution.

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That is by intent content.

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In that case, the next action we want

that person to take after consuming

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the content is to contact sales, to

book a demo, to sign up for a free

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account, to sign up for a free trial.

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Like, it's a by intent action.

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That's only one of the intents.

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There's also trust intent

or affinity intent.

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And so this is what frequently

people talk about when they talk

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about thought leadership content,

or they talk about, brand content.

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Frequently what they're talking

about is trust or affinity.

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And the next action is for the

person to feel good about the brand.

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To change their perception

about the brand.

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There's not actually a direct

next action that we can measure.

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It really is more about

sentiment, perception, feelings.

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Potentially they share the article on

social media or they send it to their

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peers and say, Hey, this was a super

thought provoking article or like, man.

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This company is smart.

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Like they know things.

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They know me or they know the industry.

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That's that.

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There's also, what I

call use intent content.

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So this is the next action is go

into the product or if you're using

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a service, you know, contact your

account manager or, contact the person

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you're working with to actually use.

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the thing.

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So if the next action is log into the

product, so use case content, templates,

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jobs to be done, that is a different

type of content and particularly

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for products like growth companies.

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that use intent content is really

important, particularly during the

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onboarding and activation phases.

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It's also really important from a

retention and expansion set of kind

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of phases of the life cycle, because

if someone's not getting value from

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the product, they're not going to

invite their colleagues into the

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product and they're not going to renew.

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, so we've talked about buy

intent, use intent, trust intent.

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There's also help intent or

remediation intent content.

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So somebody has a problem.

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I can't log in.

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I'm trying to reach someone.

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I don't understand how this works.

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Can you help me?

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Um, Usually that person is

going to be a customer already.

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but again, particularly when you

see so many companies are putting

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their documentation online,

it gets really fuzzy, right?

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Because you want to see how

hard is it to troubleshoot this.

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particularly if you're an engineer, for

example, and you're doing API integrations

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or you're building on top of another

company's API that help content of

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like, how do I actually fix this and

troubleshoot this or what are common

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issues can be something that influences

whether or not you buy that product.

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it's not intended to be for

purchasing, but it might

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actually influence the purchase.

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and then the final content, which I

think is quite the most misunderstood

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is this idea of learn intent content.

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Everybody thinks that educational

content is the best content.

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That's we're going to teach you something.

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And it's like, okay, what

are you teaching them?

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We're going to teach them

why our product is the best.

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Okay.

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So that's by intent content.

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No, no, we're teaching.

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I'm like, you're teaching them

why they should buy the product.

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That's by intent content.

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Right.

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Or like, Oh, we're gonna educate

them about how to use the product.

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And I'm like, You literally just

said it, it's use intent content.

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So true learn intent content,

again, it could be practices.

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The next action might

just be to think about it.

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It might be to incorporate

something into your own workflows.

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Might be to share the article with, peers

or social media, but it's, it's not taking

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a direct action that benefits the company.

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So when you ask me, what is content for?

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My answer is, well, what is the next

action that the audience is going to take?

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And that's how we think about matching

the intent of a piece of content

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with the action and the usefulness

of that content to the audience.

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It's not just asymmetrically, well,

all content should generate revenue.

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Okay.

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Well, there's actually a lot of

different ways to exchange value

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with our audience through content.

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Justin Norris: And do you see those

different, categories and dynamics as

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sort of evergreen over the past, you

know, 20 years and, the external forms

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and the mediums and, the distribution

channels, those may evolve, but

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really these things are evergreen.

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Or do you feel that.

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A content game itself is changing

in some fundamental ways where

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there's like a rupture with how

content has been used in the past.

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Ashley Faus: I think that the trust

intent or affinity in intent content,

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I do think that that has changed

significantly over the last decade.

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particularly because the barriers to

create and distribute content are so low.

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There is a flood of content.

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And so the ability to trust that the

content is correct, that it's factual,

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that it's accurate, that it's up to date.

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that sense that you trust the person

or brand that it's coming from, not

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just factually, does it make sense,

but like just on a gut level, if I see

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your name pop up in my feed or in my

inbox, or I land on a website, do I

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feel like I can trust that information?

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So I'm not even going to

consume the information.

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If I land on a site, that's

got like pop ups everywhere.

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And it looks like it was from 1996, like.

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I don't actually care if you have the

most rigorous and proper methodology

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to conduct your original research.

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I'm a little concerned that it's

not that trustworthy, right?

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So I actually think that trust

piece, has fundamentally changed.

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And then I also think that the

like help or remediation intent, I

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think that's fundamentally changed.

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Again, there's so many low

code or no code solutions.

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There's so many, what you see

is what you get and there's.

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there's so many automations, there's so

many integrations that the assumption

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that someone should be able to figure

this out themselves, like, I don't want

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to pay for an implementation consultant.

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I don't want to have to bring on advisory

services for a year long contract.

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I don't want to have to have a weekly call

just to get this stupid product to work.

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So I do think that that help

or remediation intent content

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is a fundamental shift.

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Those are the two.

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I think that.

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Buy intent, use intent and learn intent

are pretty steady throughout, you know,

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again, to your point, the formats and

the channels have changed, but I do

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think trust intent and help intent have

significantly shifted over the last

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decade.

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Justin Norris: You know, it's really

interesting what you said about

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trust because it made me reflect just

as you were speaking like, we said

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back in the day, you know, a guide

from HubSpot or a guide from Marketo

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on this is how you do this thing.

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It was very authoritative.

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And I looked to vendors to

educate me on those subjects.

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: 00:15:59

And now I have an almost, an opposite

reaction where it's like, I've

284

: 00:16:02

said the vendor is saying something

it's almost guaranteed to be biased

285

: 00:16:06

towards their own product in some way.

286

: 00:16:08

It's I trust it much, much

less and I trust individuals at

287

: 00:16:13

those companies much, much more.

288

: 00:16:15

Do you see like a shift in the dynamics

between the individual versus the

289

: 00:16:19

brand and delivering the content?

290

: 00:16:21

Ashley Faus: For sure.

291

: 00:16:22

And I think a big part of this is that

because we have swung so far onto the,

292

: 00:16:29

every single asset must drive revenue.

293

: 00:16:32

It all ends up being quite salesy.

294

: 00:16:34

And so we've conditioned the audience.

295

: 00:16:38

to believe that anything coming

from a brand is going to sell.

296

: 00:16:42

Even if that asset actually doesn't

sell, the assumption is if it's coming

297

: 00:16:46

from a brand, it's going to sell.

298

: 00:16:48

And in contrast, individuals

don't have to sell.

299

: 00:16:52

So I'm actually a perfect

example of this, right?

300

: 00:16:54

Like I work for Atlassian.

301

: 00:16:55

Everyone knows I work for Atlassian.

302

: 00:16:57

I frequently talk about my work.

303

: 00:16:59

I'll sometimes jump in on a LinkedIn

thread and be like, Hey, I'm biased, but

304

: 00:17:03

like, just going to throw in a plug for

Jira and Confluence for this use case.

305

: 00:17:07

Right.

306

: 00:17:08

But if you look at the bulk of my

content, I'm not selling anything.

307

: 00:17:12

I'm just, I'm sharing ideas.

308

: 00:17:14

The thing I'm selling is the

ideas that I want to spread.

309

: 00:17:18

I want to work with smart marketers.

310

: 00:17:19

And the benefit I get from sharing is if

people adopt my ideas, I get to work with

311

: 00:17:23

people who think like me and, build on the

way that I think marketing should be done.

312

: 00:17:28

So when I do talk about Atlassian, It

actually has credibility precisely because

313

: 00:17:34

I don't always talk about Atlassian.

314

: 00:17:36

You don't get this sense that I'm

just out there being a shill and that

315

: 00:17:40

somebody behind the screen is forcing

me to say certain things, it's this

316

: 00:17:44

weird dichotomy where it's almost more

beneficial to have your employees not

317

: 00:17:49

always talking about the brand so that

when they do talk about the brand, It

318

: 00:17:54

stands out as authentic and unbiased.

319

: 00:17:57

I do think having individuals say full

disclosure, I work for this brand or, Hey,

320

: 00:18:02

I know I'm biased because I'm a marketer

for this product, but here's the thing.

321

: 00:18:07

the pitch as it were.

322

: 00:18:09

So I do think there's still a place

where the brand can lend a halo to

323

: 00:18:14

an individual, but I think it is much

more common for individuals to also

324

: 00:18:19

lend a halo to the brand than it was

when it was just a lot harder to create

325

: 00:18:24

content.

326

: 00:18:25

Justin Norris: And if I think of the

trust dynamics of that situation,

327

: 00:18:28

it's really all the years that you

have put into your career, sharing

328

: 00:18:32

thought leadership, you know, speaking

at conferences, going on podcasts.

329

: 00:18:36

Like you've built up, credits in

the bank that create that trust,

330

: 00:18:41

that when this person speaks, you

know, they have something genuine

331

: 00:18:44

to contribute to the conversation.

332

: 00:18:45

They're not just being

a shell for a brand.

333

: 00:18:47

So when you do say like, actually, I

really endorse this particular product for

334

: 00:18:50

this particular use case, whether you're

biased or not, by where you work, there's

335

: 00:18:54

like a, okay, like I take that seriously

versus, you can easily pay or now with

336

: 00:18:59

AI churn out, you know, Hundreds of blog

posts saturate search engines There's

337

: 00:19:04

nothing behind it just kind of shows up.

338

: 00:19:06

It's very ephemeral.

339

: 00:19:07

it really strikes me like that the

people are being foregrounded in a

340

: 00:19:12

new way and, it brings us then to

this notion of like B2B creators,

341

: 00:19:15

which we're sort of importing from.

342

: 00:19:18

the YouTube world and the TikTok

world and, you know, those things

343

: 00:19:21

that, uh, the kids in Gen Z are

doing I've been calling it like the

344

: 00:19:24

TikTok-ification of a B2B where we see

345

: 00:19:27

like funny videos, like video games.

346

: 00:19:30

They're not like polished and corporate.

347

: 00:19:31

They're sort of rough, but

they very entertaining and

348

: 00:19:34

they're very, interesting.

349

: 00:19:36

and then another part of my brain goes

like, is this actually selling anything?

350

: 00:19:39

Like, Is it entertaining the people

that watch it, but is it helping?

351

: 00:19:42

so maybe I'm just curious for you

to unpack your, perspective on this

352

: 00:19:45

whole trend and where it's going.

353

: 00:19:47

Ashley Faus: Yeah, it's super

interesting because I actually think

354

: 00:19:50

This is an evolution of the previous

trend, which was around, why marketers

355

: 00:19:54

need to think more like moviemakers?

356

: 00:19:57

Why Netflix is the best

marketer in the whole world?

357

: 00:20:00

And creating a feature length film

that is an hour and a half to two hours

358

: 00:20:04

long, with some of the best actors

in the industry, the best CGI, multi

359

: 00:20:10

million dollar budgets for both the

production and the distribution of that?

360

: 00:20:16

Sure, if you have that, yeah,

you can definitely create.

361

: 00:20:22

a Netflix level or a,

blockbuster level film.

362

: 00:20:25

I actually, when I was, I

attended South by Southwest.

363

: 00:20:28

I mean, this was probably in 2014

and I went to a panel, basically a

364

: 00:20:34

presentation talking about how to

create these awesome brand experiences.

365

: 00:20:38

And it was the agency who worked on

HBO's Westworld, which is this like

366

: 00:20:44

alternate reality where people are

robots and it was a whole thing.

367

: 00:20:48

And literally the experience that they

were talking about was that they had

368

: 00:20:51

rented out an entire Southwest Airlines

jet and like were flying full jet loads

369

: 00:21:00

of celebrities and influencers and

people out to this desert full on town.

370

: 00:21:06

They had hundreds of actors and they were

like, so really, when you think about

371

: 00:21:10

this, how can you create this experience?

372

: 00:21:12

And I'm like.

373

: 00:21:13

Yeah, if I can book out a full jet and

fly people to a three day experience

374

: 00:21:20

that is, like, this immersive, full ghost

town with hundreds of actors, yeah, I

375

: 00:21:25

can generate millions of social media

impressions and press coverage, too.

376

: 00:21:29

So particularly on the post with

Kieran, the creator that he linked.

377

: 00:21:34

I watched an interview with her

where she breaks down her process.

378

: 00:21:38

She's legit.

379

: 00:21:39

Like she's studying videos.

380

: 00:21:41

She has mastered YouTube shorts.

381

: 00:21:43

She's got spreadsheets.

382

: 00:21:44

She's looking at every single one

of her videos down to the second.

383

: 00:21:48

She can tell you that every video

needs to be exactly 34 seconds

384

: 00:21:51

because that's at the 35th second,

that's where she sees the drop off.

385

: 00:21:54

And she knows that because her last

three videos that were 37 seconds, 36

386

: 00:21:58

seconds and 35 seconds underperformed.

387

: 00:22:00

Right.

388

: 00:22:00

Dude, I agree with you.

389

: 00:22:02

If I had time.

390

: 00:22:04

To go down that rabbit hole.

391

: 00:22:05

And I would say I'm, pretty nerdy

about the LinkedIn algorithm.

392

: 00:22:08

Like I, nerd out on that.

393

: 00:22:10

not to that level.

394

: 00:22:10

I don't have time to go all the way down

that full rabbit hole, but I agree with

395

: 00:22:14

you that if you give every single B2B

marketer the opportunity to go down the

396

: 00:22:19

rabbit hole on a single audience, on a

single channel, on a single asset type,

397

: 00:22:26

And you let them choose what they want

to work on and what they want to create,

398

: 00:22:31

100 percent you can make things go viral.

399

: 00:22:33

That's not a very fair comparison, right?

400

: 00:22:35

So I think that's the first thing

is the constraints are different,

401

: 00:22:38

both in terms of time, money, then

obviously from a metric standpoint, your

402

: 00:22:43

point about, is it selling anything?

403

: 00:22:46

I would assume, this gal is making.

404

: 00:22:50

Lots of money, actually.

405

: 00:22:51

her videos, she gets like a

million views per video on YouTube.

406

: 00:22:55

it would not surprise me if

she is making a lot of money.

407

: 00:22:59

Where that money is coming from isn't

going to work from a B2B perspective.

408

: 00:23:03

So I actually posted this, in a follow up.

409

: 00:23:05

We had a video that, we're

actually working on because it

410

: 00:23:08

doesn't have a lot of views.

411

: 00:23:10

And so a couple of people are kind

of poking at it being like, Hey, Why

412

: 00:23:13

doesn't this video have very many views?

413

: 00:23:15

why did we create this?

414

: 00:23:16

If it doesn't have very many views

and the marketer who created it said,

415

: 00:23:20

well, every single conference where we

have a booth, people come up and ask us

416

: 00:23:25

this question and our salespeople are

telling us that they get this question

417

: 00:23:30

all the time when they get on calls.

418

: 00:23:33

So we made this video to answer it.

419

: 00:23:35

And then the next question was, well,

has it actually influenced any deals?

420

: 00:23:38

Like, can we actually point

to some other metrics?

421

: 00:23:41

And the marketer replied, well, actually

it was just showed in this, several

422

: 00:23:44

hundred thousand dollar deal that, we're

close to closing with this customer.

423

: 00:23:49

And so in contrast to the traditional

creator, B2B marketers don't

424

: 00:23:54

actually need the biggest audience.

425

: 00:23:57

We need the right audience

with deep pockets.

426

: 00:24:00

I don't actually need to

get a million views a year.

427

: 00:24:03

If I get the right 10 views, And

I get in the right rooms, Mr.

428

: 00:24:08

Beast is the perfect example of a

creator where everyone's like, he's

429

: 00:24:11

making, you know, tens or hundreds

of millions of dollars a year.

430

: 00:24:15

The flip side of that is if you

look at his progression, this

431

: 00:24:17

is you know, his first year, he

made 3, 000 his next year, he

432

: 00:24:25

And I make 3, 000 for

the business in a year.

433

: 00:24:29

Like I don't have a job anymore.

434

: 00:24:31

The business doesn't exist anymore.

435

: 00:24:32

Even if I'm a solopreneur for myself,

if I quit my job at Atlassian and I

436

: 00:24:37

go all in on Instagram or LinkedIn

and I make three grand, like that's.

437

: 00:24:42

going to be a problem for my household,

there's some of it where, in contrast,

438

: 00:24:48

I can stay in my job at Atlassian

and close 10 deals and they might

439

: 00:24:53

each be worth two or 3 million.

440

: 00:24:56

Cool.

441

: 00:24:57

So you're telling me with the

right 10 deals, you can make

442

: 00:25:00

as much money as you want.

443

: 00:25:01

A YouTuber that gets a

million views on their videos.

444

: 00:25:04

Like it's just not the same comparison.

445

: 00:25:07

I think the mindset of experimentation,

the mindset of optimization, the

446

: 00:25:12

mindset of truly studying the audience,

the narratives, the assets, and the

447

: 00:25:16

channels, all of that, we should adapt.

448

: 00:25:20

there is a human behind the screen.

449

: 00:25:21

So the storytelling, that

sense of human connection, but.

450

: 00:25:26

The idea that virality alone is the thing

we should chase and that as B2B marketers,

451

: 00:25:32

we're failing because we don't get a

million views on our YouTube videos.

452

: 00:25:37

That's where I start to get

real twitchy about the metrics.

453

: 00:25:40

Justin Norris: Yeah.

454

: 00:25:41

I think you, you put it really well.

455

: 00:25:42

And the.

456

: 00:25:43

Other difference that I think was implicit

in your response is that like for a Mr.

457

: 00:25:49

Beast or the youtuber that you were

describing they are selling Entertainment

458

: 00:25:55

in exchange for your attention, which

then you know gives them ad revenue in

459

: 00:25:59

YouTube And in B2B it's totally different.

460

: 00:26:03

The video has to serve a

completely different purpose.

461

: 00:26:06

And the entertainment value may be

like the spoonful of sugar that helps

462

: 00:26:10

the medicine go down, so to speak.

463

: 00:26:12

But then there has to be some other

Oh, now I feel a greater affinity with

464

: 00:26:17

this brand, or I feel greater trust,

or I'm more interested in what they do.

465

: 00:26:20

And a lot of the stuff that I see, and

this is what had me scratching my head,

466

: 00:26:25

like, okay, yeah, it's good for a laugh,

but it's also kind of silly sometimes.

467

: 00:26:30

And I remember the creator,

but I may not even remember the

468

: 00:26:33

brand that they're doing it for.

469

: 00:26:35

I just remember the skit and it was funny.

470

: 00:26:38

And so I just wonder if it's

actually achieving its goals.

471

: 00:26:40

It may truly be achieving

engagement, but not actually any,

472

: 00:26:43

um, marketing goal for the brand.

473

: 00:26:45

Ashley Faus: Yeah, it's

interesting too, right?

474

: 00:26:47

Because, so for example, my bio says,

marketer, writer, speaker by day,

475

: 00:26:52

singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.

476

: 00:26:55

Because I frequently incorporate

acting content or fitness

477

: 00:27:01

content into my LinkedIn posts,

478

: 00:27:04

it's twice now it's happened where,

we've talked about doing something

479

: 00:27:07

around like muscles and marketing.

480

: 00:27:09

And it's like, yeah, we're just

going to do bicep curls for a 30

481

: 00:27:11

minute live stream about marketing.

482

: 00:27:12

I'm like, Hey, I'm down.

483

: 00:27:13

You know, another one was wanting

to talk about, running on a

484

: 00:27:16

treadmill and talking about it.

485

: 00:27:18

And I'm like, running is not my

favorite, but if that's what we need to

486

: 00:27:20

do, if that's your favorite, I'm down.

487

: 00:27:22

Right.

488

: 00:27:23

So people do associate me with fitness.

489

: 00:27:29

singing, acting, and performing.

490

: 00:27:31

And I do think that that

helps differentiate.

491

: 00:27:34

Me and my content from a lot of

the other creators on LinkedIn.

492

: 00:27:39

if you ask them what I'm an expert

in, and when you invite me onto

493

: 00:27:43

a podcast, you don't ask me for

tips to build bigger biceps.

494

: 00:27:47

You don't ask me for tips about

how to audition for a show.

495

: 00:27:51

That's not what I'm here for.

496

: 00:27:53

And while you like me more because I

give you those examples, or while you may

497

: 00:27:58

think of me and be able to identify with

me more because of those things, at the

498

: 00:28:03

core, the reason you want to talk to me

is to solve a marketing problem, right?

499

: 00:28:08

So it's this interesting thing where I

think that entertainment value is, that

500

: 00:28:14

icing on the cake or to your point, it's

the sugar that helps the medicine go down.

501

: 00:28:19

It's not the point.

502

: 00:28:20

I actually have other spaces.

503

: 00:28:23

Where, personal writing or, pictures

of cakes, that is the point.

504

: 00:28:27

they achieve a very different thing.

505

: 00:28:29

the reality is they don't achieve anything

because I don't focus on those spaces.

506

: 00:28:32

Right.

507

: 00:28:32

But if I want to achieve LinkedIn

goals of being seen as an expert in

508

: 00:28:36

marketing, I have to talk about marketing

and I have to talk about it at depth.

509

: 00:28:42

there's plenty of people who can say, my

quippy phrasing is the funnel is dead.

510

: 00:28:47

Use a playground instead.

511

: 00:28:49

I can just post that

as a meme all day long.

512

: 00:28:51

But at some point, somebody is going

to be like, do you mean by that?

513

: 00:28:55

Can you actually do it?

514

: 00:28:56

Have you actually done it?

515

: 00:28:58

How can I do it?

516

: 00:28:59

Like you can't just run around

declaring things dead as a meme.

517

: 00:29:03

And achieve your goal of being

seen as an expert, right?

518

: 00:29:06

So I think, there is a balance of that

more personal or relatable or funny,

519

: 00:29:11

whatever it is, hook to keep people

interested, but it does not achieve the

520

: 00:29:16

same goals around expertise or revenue.

521

: 00:29:19

If you're a B2B company

as that meaty content.

522

: 00:29:24

Justin Norris: Maybe that's a good

point to transition to talking about

523

: 00:29:28

that concept of, the playground.

524

: 00:29:30

That's actually how I think I

discovered your content, your LinkedIn.

525

: 00:29:35

because I'd, made some off the cuff

post about like, you know, I just

526

: 00:29:39

don't think it makes sense to map

content to funnel stages anymore.

527

: 00:29:43

And so I was like, Oh, you should

check out Ashley's article here

528

: 00:29:45

about the content playground.

529

: 00:29:47

I was like, Oh yeah, totally.

530

: 00:29:49

That makes sense to me.

531

: 00:29:50

People still to this day, investors,

other experts I talked to, they

532

: 00:29:55

want you to go through that exercise

of like, take your content, map it

533

: 00:29:58

to the funnel, blah, blah, blah.

534

: 00:29:59

So maybe just walk us through

your point of view there and why

535

: 00:30:03

that idea, , doesn't make sense.

536

: 00:30:05

What do you recommend instead?

537

: 00:30:07

Ashley Faus: My mindset around the funnel

is that it's a retrospective measurement

538

: 00:30:12

tool, not a forward looking strategy tool.

539

: 00:30:14

So yes, if you look at, deals closed

one deals closed, lost, a certain

540

: 00:30:19

amount of people are going to become

aware of the product or service.

541

: 00:30:22

A certain number of them are going

to evaluate and figure out, you know,

542

: 00:30:25

Hey, is this set of tools or this

service going to solve my problem?

543

: 00:30:29

A certain number of them

will eventually buy.

544

: 00:30:31

obviously if you were in some

sort of subscription business.

545

: 00:30:35

You know, there's that additional fourth

phase around retention, upsell, cross

546

: 00:30:38

sell advocacy, where they will keep buying

and they will tell other people to buy

547

: 00:30:43

or they will expand within their company

and invite more users onto the platform.

548

: 00:30:48

Factually, that is a thing that happens.

549

: 00:30:51

But to say that a piece of content

Is awareness, like if we go back

550

: 00:30:56

to the intense that I described

earlier, what do you mean by aware?

551

: 00:31:01

Like if I see that your company is hiring

a lot of different people, and so I'm

552

: 00:31:07

constantly seeing, seeing you on LinkedIn

because people are announcing that they

553

: 00:31:11

just got a job at X, Y, or Z company.

554

: 00:31:14

I mean, technically I'm aware of the

company, but am I in any way trying

555

: 00:31:18

to buy from them just because I

saw a bunch of job posts, like, no.

556

: 00:31:23

and I think that the other issue

with the funnel is that it basically

557

: 00:31:27

starts when the company recognizes

that someone is on a buying journey.

558

: 00:31:33

It completely ignores all the

other journeys that they could

559

: 00:31:37

be on and everything that

happened before the company.

560

: 00:31:41

is made aware that they're on a journey.

561

: 00:31:44

Right.

562

: 00:31:44

that's the first thing is that

people don't buy that way.

563

: 00:31:46

Nobody wakes up and is like today I

shall be in the consideration phase.

564

: 00:31:50

Like that's not how humans work.

565

: 00:31:52

Right.

566

: 00:31:52

sure.

567

: 00:31:54

If we retrospectively look at some

point they had to consider the product,

568

: 00:31:57

but like nobody thinks that way.

569

: 00:31:59

I think that's the first thing.

570

: 00:32:00

I think the second thing is that

it tries to force people into this

571

: 00:32:03

journey That only goes one way.

572

: 00:32:06

So I've had this example, right?

573

: 00:32:08

Pricing is traditionally considered

a bottom of funnel or purchase

574

: 00:32:11

or decision level conversation.

575

: 00:32:14

But if I'm trying to secure budget.

576

: 00:32:16

So that I can even kick

off a buying process.

577

: 00:32:19

I have to get a sense

of what the pricing is.

578

: 00:32:22

So I had this issue.

579

: 00:32:23

I, you know, was going

to look at buying a tool.

580

: 00:32:25

My boss asked me, you know, we were

in the planning process and he was

581

: 00:32:28

like, how much money do you need?

582

: 00:32:30

And I'm like, I don't know.

583

: 00:32:32

So I reached out to a bunch of reps.

584

: 00:32:34

I'm like, Hey, What's the general

pricing for this number of licenses

585

: 00:32:39

that, this tier of product.

586

: 00:32:41

And they kept coming back and being

like, you need to read this white paper.

587

: 00:32:44

You need to book a demo.

588

: 00:32:45

I'm like, y'all, I'm not Bant qualified.

589

: 00:32:48

And I know Bant is not

the most current thing.

590

: 00:32:50

I'm not on the sales side,

but I didn't have budget.

591

: 00:32:51

I

592

: 00:32:52

Justin Norris: You're

trying to get budget.

593

: 00:32:53

You need a number so that you can

594

: 00:32:54

get it.

595

: 00:32:54

Ashley Faus: right.

596

: 00:32:55

Um, and I'm trying to get budget.

597

: 00:32:56

So.

598

: 00:32:57

So.

599

: 00:32:57

finally one person gave me pricing.

600

: 00:33:01

, so I was actually able to go back and

said, Hey, I need this much money.

601

: 00:33:04

I got the budget.

602

: 00:33:04

So then I came back to all of

those vendors and I said, hello,

603

: 00:33:08

I have budget and I'm looking to

spend it in the next six months.

604

: 00:33:11

So you got, I solved the B and the T

and I even said, like, I am the decision

605

: 00:33:16

maker, so I've got authority and I

have this need, like I'm bought in.

606

: 00:33:19

here's the criteria of what

I'm looking for based on my

607

: 00:33:22

understanding of the problem.

608

: 00:33:24

So I get on the sales

call and they're like.

609

: 00:33:27

96 percent of buyers and they're

like going on and on about why I

610

: 00:33:31

should care about this problem.

611

: 00:33:32

And I'm like, I'm going

to stop you right there.

612

: 00:33:33

I'm bought in on the problem

needing to be solved.

613

: 00:33:35

I'm bought in that a tool

like yours solves it.

614

: 00:33:38

Why should I buy your tool?

615

: 00:33:40

And the number of reps that

could not be like, Oh shoot,

616

: 00:33:42

she's trying to make a decision.

617

: 00:33:43

Like she's ready to spend.

618

: 00:33:46

They wanted to like,

send me five case studies

619

: 00:33:48

and I'm like, why are you trying

to educate me about a problem that

620

: 00:33:51

I already agree with you about?

621

: 00:33:53

I don't care.

622

: 00:33:54

I don't need to see any

more research about this.

623

: 00:33:56

Show me your product.

624

: 00:33:57

Right?

625

: 00:33:58

So again, that funnel mindset, it's

like, well, we built this pitch

626

: 00:34:03

and you've just now arrived to us,

you know, you filled out the form.

627

: 00:34:07

So that means you're in the

awareness phase and it's your

628

: 00:34:10

first call with a sales rep.

629

: 00:34:11

So clearly you're just

barely in consideration.

630

: 00:34:14

I'm like, no, I'm in

decision and purchase.

631

: 00:34:17

So where am I going to purchase you or

am I going to purchase your competitor

632

: 00:34:20

they just couldn't even do anything.

633

: 00:34:21

Right.

634

: 00:34:22

Like they couldn't figure it out.

635

: 00:34:23

but then once I actually got the

tool, I had leadership buy in, but

636

: 00:34:29

I didn't actually have user buy in.

637

: 00:34:31

So then at that point I was

asking them, Hey, can you actually

638

: 00:34:34

send me all that research?

639

: 00:34:36

So that I can convince the users why

they should care about using this tool.

640

: 00:34:41

And I need to convince the

users that this is a problem.

641

: 00:34:44

And they're like, Oh, well, we're

gonna run onboarding sessions for you.

642

: 00:34:47

And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

643

: 00:34:48

See, here's the problem.

644

: 00:34:49

The users are actually not

bought in on this problem, right?

645

: 00:34:52

Like they're actually not bought in

on why we need to solve this problem.

646

: 00:34:56

So me as an economic buyer, I'm

bought in and I bought, but my

647

: 00:35:00

users, they're not bought in.

648

: 00:35:02

So I actually need to go.

649

: 00:35:04

Awareness, I guess, my users.

650

: 00:35:08

And again, it's just like, when I describe

that, everybody shakes their head and

651

: 00:35:11

they're like, yes, that's the problem.

652

: 00:35:13

And I'm like, great.

653

: 00:35:14

which of that content maps

654

: 00:35:19

into the funnel stages.

655

: 00:35:20

they're just like, Oh it

doesn't really map very well.

656

: 00:35:24

And I'm like we're back to that

intent about how you think about that.

657

: 00:35:29

the other framework that I use

for this is content depths.

658

: 00:35:31

So conceptual, strategic, and tactical.

659

: 00:35:34

and again, those do not have an intent.

660

: 00:35:37

You put an intent on those.

661

: 00:35:39

but that's really a lot of that

education phase, whether it's

662

: 00:35:43

education, about the problem space,

education, about the solution space.

663

: 00:35:47

You know, the what, the why

of the idea versus tools, key

664

: 00:35:50

knowledge components, et cetera.

665

: 00:35:52

Equipping the audience

to do their own research.

666

: 00:35:54

And then obviously at the tactical level.

667

: 00:35:56

It is rarely yeah, just log

into the tool every day.

668

: 00:35:59

there's probably some other

stuff that needs to happen.

669

: 00:36:01

What is that stuff?

670

: 00:36:02

Right?

671

: 00:36:03

Um, and so being able to have that,

that different depth of content mix,

672

: 00:36:08

I think is a better way to think about

planning, to make sure you have enough

673

: 00:36:11

depth in your narratives, beyond just

buy this product, today and log in every

674

: 00:36:18

day, you know, and then when it's time

to renew, see, you logged in every day.

675

: 00:36:21

So you should renew because

clearly you're getting value.

676

: 00:36:23

Justin Norris: I've lived that

experience you described with the

677

: 00:36:26

salespeople so often, especially

because like I'm a more technical buyer.

678

: 00:36:30

So I've done my research and usually

I just want to see the problem.

679

: 00:36:34

And then I have to sit through

the like half an hour of slides.

680

: 00:36:37

So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

681

: 00:36:38

Like I understand.

682

: 00:36:40

So, I mean, there's a whole other

tangent around like the sales process

683

: 00:36:44

and how it gets broken that we could

go on, but contrasting that with

684

: 00:36:47

this metaphor of the playground,

that, a playground is free flowing.

685

: 00:36:52

There's no start or stop.

686

: 00:36:55

There's no fixed thing.

687

: 00:36:56

There are different.

688

: 00:36:57

I don't even know what they would

be called, but different pieces of

689

: 00:36:59

equipment on the playground that can

be used for different things and you

690

: 00:37:02

can sort of pick and choose where

you want to go based on your need.

691

: 00:37:06

It's very elegant and, um,

and it's a wonderful metaphor.

692

: 00:37:09

I think it makes a lot of sense.

693

: 00:37:11

Practically speaking, trying to

implement that, whether at Atlassian or

694

: 00:37:15

elsewhere, maybe with clients, I don't

know, but like, What have you seen, you

695

: 00:37:19

know, putting that in, into practice?

696

: 00:37:21

Does the funnel just keep sort of

reasserting itself like this sort

697

: 00:37:25

of bad dream that we can't forget?

698

: 00:37:26

Or, or does it actually work and work

really well to change the dynamic?

699

: 00:37:31

Ashley Faus: I do a lot of, uh, language

translation in this vein of like, cool.

700

: 00:37:38

You want to talk funnel?

701

: 00:37:39

I can talk funnel.

702

: 00:37:40

Let's, let's have that conversation.

703

: 00:37:41

Right.

704

: 00:37:41

I do find that the funnel language Is

still helpful for buy intent content and

705

: 00:37:48

journeys because again, yes, it's a handy

retrospective measurement tool, right?

706

: 00:37:53

Um, so I'll give an example.

707

: 00:37:54

And again, this kind of like

brings in that fitness background.

708

: 00:37:58

Um, if you ask the question, what

does it mean to be healthy and fit?

709

: 00:38:02

Most people agree it's some

combination of diet and exercise.

710

: 00:38:07

But you're going to answer that

question very differently if you're

711

: 00:38:09

runner's world versus muscle and

fitness versus yoga journal, right?

712

: 00:38:13

So, um, I'm, I like

bodybuilding style workouts.

713

: 00:38:16

So let's pretend that we're

going to answer this question

714

: 00:38:18

as muscle and fitness magazine.

715

: 00:38:20

So at the conceptual level, you

would say you're healthy and fit

716

: 00:38:23

if you have big, strong muscles

and you eat a high protein diet.

717

: 00:38:27

At the strategic depth, you would

probably be talking about things

718

: 00:38:31

like different sources of protein or

fast digesting versus slow digesting

719

: 00:38:36

protein, like from a diet perspective.

720

: 00:38:38

And then, you know, how to have

good form when you're lifting.

721

: 00:38:41

And then at the tactical level,

this is 10 tips to build bigger

722

: 00:38:44

biceps or five chicken dinner

recipes to try this week, right?

723

: 00:38:47

So that's how you apply it

from a depth perspective.

724

: 00:38:50

Then when you think about it

from the intent perspective.

725

: 00:38:54

Notice in all of those things,

I didn't sell you anything.

726

: 00:38:57

I taught you about protein and lifting.

727

: 00:39:00

You can easily start inserting products

like protein supplements in there, or

728

: 00:39:05

booking a time with a trainer, or buying

a gym membership, or booking a time

729

: 00:39:10

with a nutrition consultant, buying a

meal template, buying meal kits, right?

730

: 00:39:15

I can insert a lot of different buy

intense CTAs into each of those articles.

731

: 00:39:21

I can also tweak it, right?

732

: 00:39:23

So let's say we're having a strategic

conversation, a strategic depth

733

: 00:39:27

conversation, um, about macros.

734

: 00:39:30

So how much fat, carbs, and

protein should you eat in order to

735

: 00:39:34

build big, strong muscles, right?

736

: 00:39:37

I can, I can have that conversation

At that strategic level, and I can

737

: 00:39:42

put in a buy intent CTA that is,

you know, buy this meal delivery

738

: 00:39:47

service and they will deliver meals

to you that are the correct macros.

739

: 00:39:51

I can also do something that

is a use intent CTA, which is.

740

: 00:39:55

Buy, you know, download this free

template that will give you some

741

: 00:39:59

recipe ideas within that free template.

742

: 00:40:02

I can include a buy intent CTA that

has affiliate links for different

743

: 00:40:06

ingredients by these egg whites

or by this protein mix that works

744

: 00:40:10

really well for protein pancakes.

745

: 00:40:11

Right.

746

: 00:40:12

Um, from a help intent perspective,

I can then send you to a forum

747

: 00:40:15

where it's like, here's my stats.

748

: 00:40:17

Here's what I've been doing.

749

: 00:40:19

I'm not losing weight or

I'm not getting stronger.

750

: 00:40:21

Can you help me troubleshoot this?

751

: 00:40:23

So again, using my own personal example.

752

: 00:40:25

Uh, I've been, I was chasing the one plate

bench, the 45 pounds on each side for

753

: 00:40:30

about a decade off and on for a decade.

754

: 00:40:32

And I felt like I was doing a good

progression, but I was struggling.

755

: 00:40:36

And so I asked several of my

colleagues, I've got a powerlifting

756

: 00:40:38

coach colleague, I've got a sensei

colleague, and then my husband is also

757

: 00:40:42

kind of a traditional bodybuilder.

758

: 00:40:43

And so I was asking them like, Hey,

help me troubleshoot my bench press.

759

: 00:40:48

I could have hired.

760

: 00:40:50

a lifting coach to do that for me.

761

: 00:40:52

But instead I went, you know,

the, the kind of help intent route

762

: 00:40:56

of asking these other experts.

763

: 00:40:57

So if you're a forum, you could include

a buy intent CTA to pay the monthly

764

: 00:41:02

subscription fee to join the forum.

765

: 00:41:04

And then you're actually getting

help intent content from the forum

766

: 00:41:07

by saying, I'm going to post a

video of me doing bench press.

767

: 00:41:11

Why can't I lift this weight and then

people can say, Oh, your form is bad or,

768

: 00:41:15

Oh, you know, your, your speed, you're

lifting it too slow or whatever it is.

769

: 00:41:19

Right.

770

: 00:41:20

So when you think about it that

way, the playground that I basically

771

: 00:41:24

just took you down, it's like.

772

: 00:41:26

That, wow, you can add by intent

CTAs, you can flip this to be use

773

: 00:41:31

intent, you can match the depths

with the different intent CTAs.

774

: 00:41:35

You can do that in multiple

channels, whether it's an online

775

: 00:41:38

forum, like maybe you're browsing

recipes on Pinterest, right?

776

: 00:41:41

And you land on a chicken dinner recipe

and the opening line says, protein is the

777

: 00:41:45

key to building, you know, big muscles.

778

: 00:41:48

And so that's why you need

this chicken dinner recipe.

779

: 00:41:51

You can link that.

780

: 00:41:52

And if I'm not convinced, if I don't know

why protein matters, I can click that

781

: 00:41:56

link and it could take me all the way back

up to the conceptual level about maybe

782

: 00:42:01

a research paper that talks about, you

know, why protein matters or whatever.

783

: 00:42:06

So if I'm already convinced that

protein is very important, I could

784

: 00:42:09

just keep going down the row of

chicken dinner recipes, right?

785

: 00:42:12

So that's that.

786

: 00:42:14

I give that example because a

lot of people understand at least

787

: 00:42:17

some portion of that concept.

788

: 00:42:19

I get it that it's very complicated

when you start doing this from a

789

: 00:42:22

software or B, you know, B2B SaaS.

790

: 00:42:24

That's what I'm coming from perspective.

791

: 00:42:26

But we have done this exercise where,

you know, you've got agile methodology at

792

: 00:42:32

kind of a conceptual and strategic level.

793

: 00:42:34

We then drop that all the way down

into, you know, how to run your

794

: 00:42:37

standups, um, how to groom your backlog.

795

: 00:42:40

Oh, and it just so happens we can give

you a tutorial of, you know, Building

796

: 00:42:44

and grooming your backlog in JIRA.

797

: 00:42:46

Um, if you log into the product and it

asks you what template you want, and

798

: 00:42:50

it says, do you want Kanban or scrum?

799

: 00:42:52

And you're like, I don't, I don't

actually know which template I should use.

800

: 00:42:55

Cool.

801

: 00:42:56

Pop all the way back up to that

conceptual or strategic level

802

: 00:42:59

about agile methodology and the

differences between scrum and Kanban.

803

: 00:43:03

So you can decide how you

want to run your team.

804

: 00:43:06

Regardless of the tool you use, if you

were implementing agile methodology, you

805

: 00:43:11

can use sticky notes on a whiteboard.

806

: 00:43:13

But obviously.

807

: 00:43:14

We would prefer that you use,

you know, one of our tools to

808

: 00:43:17

run to implement those practices.

809

: 00:43:20

Right?

810

: 00:43:20

So that's a, that's a quick example of

how we've done that to where you could see

811

: 00:43:25

how it's mapped to the different CTAs, um,

at the, at the different content depths.

812

: 00:43:32

Justin Norris: And then in terms of

the, the ecosystem you create for people

813

: 00:43:36

to consume that content, is it about.

814

: 00:43:40

You know, contrasting it with like

a traditional resource center where

815

: 00:43:43

people lay out their content, you can

filter it by format or by, by topic.

816

: 00:43:47

Like, how do you think about structuring

the sort of virtual environment of your

817

: 00:43:51

playground so that people can easily

navigate between those different places?

818

: 00:43:55

Ashley Faus: The biggest thing is

understanding where your audience

819

: 00:43:58

is already spending time and how

they like to consume information.

820

: 00:44:02

So there's not 1 right answer to this.

821

: 00:44:05

There's obviously certain places where you

have more control, like a resource center.

822

: 00:44:09

And in that case, making sure that,

um, your filters, your tags and your.

823

: 00:44:15

Kind of cross linking or what to

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